Dragon's Gold: The Magic of Mindset

Make It Exist, Then Make It Good: Graham McNeill on Writing, Mastery, and The Expected Path

• Justin Mills • Season 1 • Episode 49

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How do you trade a stable career designing buildings for the high-stakes world of fantasy writing? Graham McNeill, the legendary author of Warhammer 40,000 novels, shares his origin story—which began not with a grand life strategy, but a pivotal choice in a bookstore after encountering The Warlock of Firetop Mountain.

Graham opens up about overcoming the generational belief that a creative career was unattainable and why he had to leave the "expected path" of architecture behind. He shares the invaluable lessons learned from his fellowship of mentors, including the secret to succeeding as a freelancer (reliability and communication), and the practical tools he uses to maintain focus and avoid burnout. This episode is packed with strategic insights for anyone looking to make a massive creative or career leap and seeking long-term mastery.

Here’s what you’ll learn in this adventure:

• Why realizing his architecture career meant "designing toilets" forced him to change everything.

• The profound advice: "Make it exist, then you can make it good," and the discipline required to finish projects.

• How to build the "muscles" of resilience needed to accept constructive criticism as a gift, not a personal attack.

• Why mastering self-discipline and routine as a freelancer is essential to avoid returning to the 9-to-5 grind.

• The hidden, powerful asset that ensures you always get hired again: being the guy people want to work with.

• Graham’s true "Dragon's Gold" that keeps him writing, which has nothing to do with awards or bestsellers.

Tools & Weapons:

• Notepads & Moleskins: Essential for capturing ideas; the physical act of writing aids the "embedding process" of creation.

• Office Routine: Treating the freelance day like an office schedule (8:30 AM to 5:30 PM) to cultivate discipline.

• Timetabling Joy: Scheduling time for non-work passions (like painting miniatures or reading a book) to avoid guilt and recharge creativity.

• Discipline of Finishing: The crucial mindset shift to "Make it exist, then you can make it good" to overcome stagnation.

• Transparency/Communication: Being reliable and communicating clearly if a deadline is at risk to maintain strong relationships as a freelancer.

• Growth Mindset: The resilience required to accept criticism as a gift to improve your skill set immeasurably.

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to another episode of Dragon's Gold, the magic of mindset. Today we have the extreme honor of having author, writer, novelist, Graham McNeil, well known for his myriad of Warhammer 40,000 novels, such as Full Grimm, A Thousand Suns, Storm of Iron, False Gods, which I've read twice. uh Amazing writer. has truly brought the lore to life uh in vivid detail. And so incredibly grateful to have you on the show today. Welcome, Graham. Thank you very much. for having me. It's a pleasure to come and chat to you. Yeah, absolutely my friend. it's pleasure to have you. Well, as I like to do, let's dive right in. Let's go to the origin story. Where did it begin for Graham McNeil? Well, as far as being a writer, it all, I can trace it back to one particular day when I was out with my mother. She was, they were trying to get me into a private school in Glasgow and you had to an entrance exam. So we were going around all the bookstores getting pass papers and stuff. And I'd been around all day and I'd been a long day. And at the end we were in a place called the Bears, the Mulgay Bookstore. And my mum said, you've been a boy all day. You can pick any book you like. And I picked, I saw this book with a dragon in the front and I thought, that looks cool. And it was the Warlock of Firetop Mountain by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingston, the first of the, you know, the Choose Your Own Adventure books that they did. And that just blew me away. I was like, wow, because I just thought it was a regular book. I didn't realize you could choose which way it went and how the story developed and so on. So I just loved the idea of that interactivity, that back and forth in the story and that. through that and those books that led me to Dungeons and Dragons, to Warhammer and here we are today. So that was the one I, when I first sort of, my love of fantasy was cemented at that point. But as far, mean, I've, you know, to paraphrase Goodfellas, like ever since I can remember, I've always wanted to be a writer, you know, from the youngest age. I was reading comic books and making board games out of the stories in the comics of Judge Dredd, Road Trooper, Robo Hunter and stuff like that. So I've always been doing it since the smallest, youngest age. But it was one of these things where I never thought I could ever actually do it professionally. I grew up in 80s in Glasgow and it was like, who does that? Writing is for these other kind of people. not for somebody like me. But I wrote stories from the earliest age and haven't stopped since. love that. Thank you for sharing that. And I can only imagine along the way, my friend, uh it has not been an easy journey to get where you are now. And from starting at those humble beginnings and those stories created, what are some of the gauntlet, if you would, the journey that you've gone along? What are some of the trials and tribulations you've encountered in your journey? I think the biggest part was thinking that it was something I could do, you know, because I assumed, you know, I would, you go to school, finish high school, go to university, have a, you know, a regular kind of career going to like accounting or business or, you know, a gardening business or whatever, or something that was expected, you know, like I think growing up. My parents certainly expected that would be the path that I would follow. The idea that you could be a writer, that you could make a living out of it in something creative was a hard barrier to overcome. So when you said to like, oh, I want to be a writer, they would just give you this funny look and go, is there any money in that? Can you have a career in that? choosing... to do that was something that I didn't do till much later, because I did, I went the sort of expected path, I went to university, I got a degree in architecture, and then I got a degree in building surveying, because that was just kind of what was expected. You would do it, and the idea that that would be something you could just say, I'm going to be a writer, and that could be a path you could follow, just took a while to lodge in and be something that I thought, you know what, I'm gonna do it. And it wasn't until I was working in the field, I was working in an architect's firm in Glasgow and was doing kind of thankless jobs at the time. I had visions of coming in and doing these grand projects of like Norman Foster's architecture, Zaha Hadid and stuff like this. But you were not doing that. You were doing very, you were designing toilets. and factories, which are essential and need to be built, but it wasn't what I kind of got into the field to do. And at one point, I remember just thinking, I can't do this for the rest of my life. It's just not what I want to do. I want to create stories of wizards and goblins and spaceships, but you know, who the hell is going to pay you for that? Still, it wasn't lodging in my mind that clearly I had read stories of all this stuff, but... and people had written them and created them and drawn them, but I never thought it was something I could do. then there was the very day that I had that sort of moment of clarity. went down to the little newsagent store just underneath our office, because we were up on the top of this building, and I picked up a copy of White Dwarf, which is Games Workshop's monthly hobby magazine. And there was a little quarter page advert in the bottom right of one of the pages looking for a staff writer in the Games Workshop design studio in Nottingham. and having come straight off the thought of, oh God, I can't do this for the rest of my life, seeing that, it felt like a, you know, a sign from the gods to try and go for it. And obviously it was the right call, right? There are many people who have read your books that are grateful for you taking that step and making that feeling. and I thought, you know, the worst that can happen is they say no, so might as well. So, yeah, I applied for it, did various writing tests, down for a couple of interviews. um And yeah, I was fortunate enough that they offered me the job because, you know, something we touched on a little earlier before we started recording is that, you know, as much as talent as you may think you have or actually have, luck. plays a huge portion in the right place at the right time and being prepared enough to seize that luck when it arises. And I'd been writing stories just for fun, ever since I picked up that copy of Warlock of Firetop Mountain for the last 20 odd years. So I was with no expectation of being able to do anything with it. I'm still trying to hone my craft and be better and learn every day to do something better than I've done it before. So. It was one of those moments where I was like, yeah, this is going forward. That's That's so powerful. That piece, that idea of putting in that constant effort, writing it, it filled your bucket. It brought you joy. You enjoyed the experience and you did what you loved. But then all that time, was, was thankless in its own right. Unless you shared it with someone who appreciated it. But the idea being that you put in the reps, you did the, you did the work so that when the opportunity did arise, right? When that luck, When you threw those dice and they came up sixes, it gave you the chance to say, now's that time. And you took that. quote that's think often given to Arnold Palmer, but I'm not sure if it is him. The one about the, you know, the more I practice, the luckier I get. You know, I just I wrote because I loved it. I still do, you know, decades later, I still write because I love it. I'm just lucky enough that I get paid for it now. But, you know, I put the time in, I wrote and I listened to what people said when they read them and tried always. not to be the defensive, like, well, I think I wrote this because this way, and you're wrong for not thinking it's the right way, being able to have that sort of open, what do call it, the growth mindset now to be aware that not everything you're going to do is perfect out the gate. In fact, 99 % of what you do is not going to be perfect straight out the gate. And a lot of new writers struggle with that. They think that this is the bee's knees. And if somebody comes to give them a criticism on it, they feel like they've been stabbed in the heart. Because writing is such a personal thing. There's a lot of people who say it's like you're opening a vein and bleeding on the page and there's something of you in everything you create, whether it's music, art, writing, songs, poetry, whatever it is. And somebody might say, well, I didn't like that very much or didn't work for me. It's easy to take it as a... not personal attack, but as something that wounds you when it's like, actually, no, this is somebody, if they're coming at this feedback with the right mentality of I'm trying to help you make this as good as it can possibly be, when you accept that, as that's what this is being given to me as, as a gift, then your skill set will improve immeasurably. Oh, Graham, so solid. That's incredibly powerful. And I agree completely when you have that open mindset and you're willing to take constructive criticism when it's given as such, right? And it doesn't feel good, right? Even nice about it. It's still hard. m muscles to not immediately shut down and say, you didn't like it, there's something wrong with you. Well, you know, maybe not. So I think of that saying of uh you can't see the bottom of the pot through the boiling water, right? And if you allow your emotions to overwhelm you, whether it's regarding criticism or whether it's a product that you're selling that someone doesn't want, when you take things as a personal attack, at the end of the day, it only hurts you, right? process. mean, even to this day, you still have to remind yourself and learn to be that person. Because not every day is the same. Some days you're having a bad day, and you might take it that way. But it's a constant process. It's not like, well, I am there now. It is done. Mm hmm. And when you are and you have that ability then to sit back and let that set and listen, think, go through your own filter, listen to what that person has said. And then it doesn't have to be exactly what they said. It can be through your own perspective. Right. But take that criticism, take that uh information. Right. And then and then use that information to make your product better, to make your art better. Right. I love it. So. It's never alone, at least not based on my experience. And I'd love to know on your journey, the fellowship, friends, allies, people who've come along the road with you, who might you cite on your journey? I mean, how long have you got? I would not be here talking to you if it wasn't for a uh litany of people who have helped me along the way, either by mentoring me, referring me, me, taught me off a ledge, that sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, when I first started at Games Workshop, my first bosses there were uh Thomas Pyrnan, Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson, and they were... awesome, awesome mentors because I had been previously just doing this for my own self, for my own amusement. There was no such thing as a brief and I had to learn about writing to brief, to target, to word count, quality bar and so on and. That was a steep learning curve and those guys were absolutely fantastic in terms of what they taught me, how to work in this creative environment where there was still products with deadlines and parameters that you had to follow and so on. the things I learned from those guys along the way. And I can say I still work with Thomas and Andy and I still collaborate and stories with Gav and stuff. the friends I made at Games Workshop are like Phil Kelly, Aunt Reynolds. They are still friends that I have to this day. I worked with Aunt for many years at Riot Games. without them... helping me along the way, raining in my worst impulses, helping me to accept this or that. Yeah, those guys were brilliant and I've learned a lot from them. It's a beautiful thing right there, Graham. when I hear you share that, one of the things that I think of, you talk about, you've gone through, you've finally gone into something that you love. You're writing for Games Workshop. You've already spent years of your life writing and nurturing your craft. Then going on, you suddenly learn how much more you have to learn, right? And then being open to learning that. open to the guidance that's given to you, putting your own filter. I love how you talk about talking off the ledge, right? Sometimes we get so into something we don't see how far we're going and we need our friends in that fellowship to help pull us back and give us some perspective. Yeah, I mean, when first went, when I left Games Workshop, um one of the first people I turned to was a fellow writer called Dan Abnett. And Dan is a stellar writer and a wonderful human being. I thought, well, he's made this freelance lifestyle work for him. So if I'm going to ask anybody for advice, would be, it's got to be him. And, you know, We talked quite regularly when I left Games Workshop and the advice he gave me on structuring my day, how I would figure out being a freelancer, because when you don't have the nine to five of the office on you, crafting a routine and a self-discipline is key because I am the... It may not seem it from the amount of books I've done, but I'm a fundamentally quite lazy person. I would quite like to stay in bed at the time. I would quite like to not do things. You know, as much as I love writing, there's times you just, maybe I'll make it up tonight, tomorrow. But when there's nobody cracking the whip on a daily basis, you know, clocking you into the office sort of thing, you are that guy. You are the person cracking the whip and figuring out how to motivate yourself to get the work done. put your ass in the chair every day, again, took some learning. And it's, again, like a lot of things we'll talk about today, it's an ongoing thing. You're always got to maintain that. Completely. And I'm curious, for anyone that is suffering and having a hard time finding that focus to sit in the chair, what are some of the things that you've done to help you? Ah, need to pay a mortgage. uh You know, a great motivator knowing that the bank manager is sitting at the end of the month going, you know, where's my money? aah But no, I mean, that's a sort of... In terms of like the craft, loving what you do is a great motivator. Because I love off times if a story isn't working for you, if you can't get the words on the page, nine times out of ten it's because there's something not right with it. It's because your earned instinct is telling you something's not right here and it's not flowing. I haven't done my due diligence to figure out what this scene is, what this plot is. it's the eternal sort of push and pull between the pantser and the plotter, whether you just want to just hit the page running and see where it takes you or you've got a detailed structure for that day. I vacillate between the two, but I'm... I like to have structure but one that is flexible enough to bend but the biggest thing I learned about it is because I thought, well, I need to do X amount of words per day and if I don't do that amount of words per day then I have failed. I've failed as a writer and a creative but eventually I learned that doesn't matter. Word count per day doesn't matter as long as I'm, as long as the ball is always moving forward and like every week I get roughly about this word done. Day to day word count doesn't really matter because life is happening all around you. Sometimes you're sick, sometimes you've got to take the car to the garage, sometimes friends in town, you want to hang out with them, sort of thing. So day to day, yeah, exactly. So the discipline for me just came from, it sounds silly to say it, you know, as a freelancer, you don't get paid unless you do the work. And if you don't get paid, you can't. put food in the fridge, keep a roof over your head, or keep the lights on. That was a big motivator for me. And plus, just, didn't want, having taken that step, I didn't want to fail at it. That right there, that right there, that's it. For me, just hearing that one piece, the idea that you don't wanna fail, you put yourself forward, you've taken that leap, and you gotta fly, or you're gonna fall, right? so, fly, baby, fly. It was a big leap leaving Games Workshop because, you know, I loved it. I loved the people. I loved the work, the place, everything about it. I just loved it. I loved being there and creating stuff that you knew people all around the world were going to be playing and reading and so on. And that was amazing. So to leave that to say, right, well, I'm going to become a full time novelist now. uh And that might fail was, you know, was a big step. And I didn't want to have to sort of crawl back and say, please gonna come back again or in some way, I didn't want to have to like leave, know, because I lived that Games Workshop was in England and obviously my family and friends were up in Scotland. So I thought, well, if I'm gonna go back to Scotland, then I want to be back on my terms, not because it crashed and burned around me. Yeah, yeah, it's a very different parade when you come in. uh I love that idea that sometimes it does take a little bit of the the idea of the carrot and the stick is what I think of. Sometimes we need a little bit of that that oomph and that pressure, we have something you're working to, but we need that pressure behind to help keep us moving along. and deadlines are wonderful things at times. Yeah, right. It's absolutely true. And I think that in anything that we do, just having a time that's expected for completion forces you to put attention to it. Right. And if you're willing, disciplined, uh frankly, it all comes down to how bad do you want it? Right. And there's a lot of people that do throw in the towel and the do quit and then just say, this isn't for me. It's too hard for me. Okay, fine. But I'm going to ask you, my friend, in a moment that may be considered the darkest hour, is there a moment where you felt like you wanted to throw in the towel and quit? how did you over Um, do you know what? don't... There have been times when, you know, times have been lean and what have you, but did I ever want to quit? Never. Never once. I've... You know, by this point it's been like, 25... Over 25 years since I left university and frankly I don't know how to do anything else. Hahaha know, like, who's going to hire me now to build their house? When was the last time you did this? About 30 years ago? No. It'll be like the little pig's house made out of straw or something. No, I've never, ever, ever wanted to quit at all. It's literally the only thing I've felt that I really, really wanted to do. mean, yeah, like when, you know, when I left Riot a couple of years back, that was tough because... You know, I live in LA, which is a very expensive town, and you need to find work after that. And I'm very fortunate that over the years, I always try and cultivate at work the, be the guy people wanna work with again. When a project comes up, you know, when you're not in the room, people mention your name. That's, mean, you know, again, none of this is 100%, not always successfully, but you try. You try and be that person. And, you know, when I left Riot, ah I was heartened by the fact that so many people reached out to me with offers of freelance work or referrals for other gigs or jobs and stuff like that. So that was a tough time, but. you know, again, I had lots of my fellowship, they were all there, I had lots of people who had my back and that really helped just from a mental point of view as much as anything. So good. So good. I love the idea of that. Be the people, be the guy that people want to work with again. Right? Your reputation speaks volumes. And if you're known for having a positive attitude and getting the job done, right? And learning and growing and like being a team player, right? Like people want to work with you, right? If you're, you're, and I don't even want to say the, if you're on the other end of that spectrum, well, if you don't get called back, there's a reason, right? as a freelancer, one of the key things is be reliable. If you say you're going to hit a particular deadline, you hit it. and if circumstances beyond your control and whatever, because they do, arise, then you let people know that you're not going to make it. you know, transparency, communication, um because if you're reliable as a freelancer, people are going to come back to you again and again and again. You know, am I the best or worst writer in the world? No, of course not. There are plenty of people who are better than me. Are they as reliable? Sometimes yes, but be reliable is the one thing that as a publisher, you want good people to write good stuff, yes, but if you can be sure that they're gonna, they say they're gonna deliver this work by such and such a date, they're gonna do it, you will get the work over and over again. great. It's a great tip. It's amazing. Graham, on your journey, what would you consider tools and weapons that have helped you along the way? mean, in terms of literal tools, I'm old school in terms of, I have many, many notepads, many moleskins and so on of ideas. Because as a writer, um if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. Because no matter how much you think, that's a great idea, I'll remember that tomorrow. nine times at 10, you probably won't. know, notepad and pen, because I know a lot of people do their sort of planning and stuff on like, you know, I mean, I have various apps that allow me to do note planning, note taking, sharing, or not sharing, but recording like a scrap of imagery or music or whatever I like. But I love the... the act of writing a thing down because the process, the thinking about it, the moving your hand to write it, the reading it on the page, it's an embedding process that I think happens in there. And as I'm writing it, I can be like, all right, now that'd be cool. Then what about this? Then what about that? And it's almost like a free association, free writing. I don't do free writing a lot. don't find that particularly valuable. But the associations I get when I put stuff down on the page and see it together. That's useful. um Discipline-wise tools, ah like we were talking about earlier, I treat my day as a freelancer. I treat my day like I'm in the office. So it's like, yeah, I want to be at my desk by like 8.30, nine o'clock. I'll take a lunch hour. I'll finish up at usually 5.30 or six o'clock. So I structure it like a day. And depending on whether what I'm working on or what stage I'm at in a project, I'll assign parts of the day to, you know, plan out chapter two or a lot of what I've done certainly recently in the last couple of years when I found that I was devoting all my time to work. I was losing touch with the things that I loved doing, like painting a miniature, reading a book or what have you. And it sounds ridiculous, but I would timetable them into my day, which sounds too regimented, but it works because I was, you know, was like, all right, cool. I can go off and read my book and not feel guilty about, I should be working right now, or I can take half an hour to put some paint on a miniature. And that breakup of your day. helps make you keep you fresh because you know if you're at the coalface for five hours at a time your your productivity and your creativity will wane at points so i was thinking it's better to take a five ten minute break to do something and recharge and then come back um so that's that and i'm trying to think what else i mean just just get your ass in the chair every day finish Mikey said it best. That was one thing I meant to say, is the discipline of finishing things. Because I've spoken to a lot of writers who say, oh, I've got these 10 stories and I haven't finished the only of them yet. And I keep getting distracted and I got a new idea and I move on to that. And it's like, okay, but barring what you've learned by writing that piece and the next piece and the one after that, that's valueless. You can't do anything with 10 unfinished stories. You can't submit that to anyone, you can't be paid for it, you're not paying off what you've done earlier in the story sort of thing. So it's like, yeah, finish the things you start. Just make it exist, then you can make it good. That's the... I love that Graham. I love that. Make it exist and then you can make it good. uh going to be perfect out the gate. There's nothing I have ever written in my life that has its final form matched what I started with, never once. I think there's a lot of value in that. There's a lot of gold in that, my friend. I love the idea, Graham, the intention of putting pen to paper, that idea of thought and pouring that out. I think in the creative process, there's so much value in that. That's different. can't get it from that, just the tactile touching the keyboard, right? I liken it to the sketch marks an artist is making before they settle on the final line before they ink it. I love that. And thinking of it as writing a book, right? You got to make it exist and then you can make it good, right? You've got to create that template, that form. You've got to give it there so that other people can see the bit of vision that you're looking for and then you can hone it. page is nothing but once the words are on it you can you know hack away the stone until you reveal the angel. I love that. That's So Dragon's Gold, the accolades, the awards, the sometimes mindset shift that comes about on your journey. What would you share, Graham, as Dragon's Gold? I mean, on a purely sort of physical basis, yeah, I mean, you probably can't see it behind me, but I've got my axe that I won the David Gemmell Legend Award for best fantasy novel that I won for my Sigmar novel, Empire. pretty cool, you know, because David Gemmell has been one of the biggest influences in my writing ever since I first read Waylander when I was 13. So to, you know, win an award that has his name on it was a huge moment for me just personally. I'm seeing Seeing A Thousand Suns was the first Black Laban novel that landed in the New York Times bestseller list. again, being able to stick the words New York Times bestseller in front of your name, feels kind of hokey in some ways, but it's still pretty cool, know, because you see that in... Stephen King books and so on. So just to see it front of my little books is still quite a lovely thing. But honestly, these are cool things and don't get me wrong, I love that this book won it and that book was the at. Bye. The thing that, again, this is gonna sound cheesy as all hell, but the thing that I enjoy the most is if I'm at a book signing or a convention and just chatting to people who have read your work and been affected by it, who've enjoyed it, who cried, who hated that particular character or can't wait for the next book in the series, that sort of thing, talking to people you've never met. and finding that they've loved something about the time you've spent in that tiny office battering the keyboard. That's amazing and that will never get old. I love that. Absolute gold, my friend. Well, I can tell you again from personal experience, I've read several of your novels and I've enjoyed every one. So please keep producing them. I will keep reading them. you. As I say to a lot of people, as long as you guys keep wanting to read it, I'll keep writing them. Yeah, exactly. The passing the torch, the idea of legacy, I call this the hall of heroes. If there was a massive statue of Graham McNeil and a plaque that could say anything that you want to future generations, what would it say? Ah, well to quote the great Ted Theodore Logan and Bill S. Preston, I think it would have to be, be excellent to everyone, party on dude. We can end the podcast right here, buddy. was fantastic. Stay hungry and stay humble. Both of those are fantastic for different reasons. that was great, Graham. So what's next? What's the next quest for Graham McNeil? Quest, wow. At the moment, well, I mean, a lot of the work I'm doing right now, I can't actually talk about it because it's NDA'd or it hasn't been announced yet and so on, but the one that I can talk about that I'm very excited for is on November the 12th, I'm launching my first ever Kickstarter for a epic 250 page graphic novel called Wolves of Winter, which is a... Fans of my work already will find tons and tons of things to like in the areas. At its simplest core, it's Vikings versus demons. They're brilliant. As long as a few thousand other people think that, then we're golden. But yeah, I'm working with a very, very talented team of artists, colorists, letters, and editor. And we've got something, seeing some of the art coming in for it, think we've got something really special. because our artist, Ricardo Jime is amazing. He worked in Godslap previously, a whole bunch of other things, and ah Vittorio Astone, who's worked on these Savage Shores, it looks amazing. So we're launching that on November the 12th. And if that's successful, we've got a whole slew of stories that can go alongside that, follow-ups and so on, spin-offs and such and such. but it's looking really good and I cannot wait to get that launched and just talk to people about that. It's a really cool story, borrows some characters from history, some legends from both Viking mythology and Celtic mythology and so on. And it's a story about a Viking chieftain who goes on a quest with his crew to try and save the life of his son who's been struck down by this terrible curse. And they have to go to this demon haunted island where the various of these ancient Celtic gods lie to try and save his life. ah what starts off as a quest to save one life ends up in a battle to save the world. And it's really cool. think people are gonna enjoy it. I love it and I look forward to reading it and checking it out. I'll hopefully I'll send you the link and we can have it in the show notes. it's guaranteed like, yeah, like I'll find it online and tag it. Graham, I've got to ask you my favorite question. If you could be any mythical creature, what would you be and why? I mean, I had a thought, I think about this one earlier and like every creature I was coming up with, like, cause that'd be cool, cause you could breathe fire or fly or whatever. It's like, yeah, but people are going to hunt you. If you're a dragon, some asshole knight is going to try and stick a lance in your heart or something. So I was like, okay, I don't want to, don't want to do that. Cause if I'm sitting on a pile of gold, somebody's going to come and nick it or kill me or something. So. One that occurred to me was when I was looking through my movie collection earlier and I was like, oh, there's a movie called The Song of the Sea by Cartoon Saloon, an animated movie written by a very talented writer called Will Collins and it's about a selkie. So I think I would choose that because they are sort of half human, half seal, shape-shifting creatures that live in the waters around Ireland and the highlands of Scotland. and they have a great life by the sound of it. I thought I would choose that. So visit the Highlands and Islands and Ireland and be able to shape shift to come on land or live in the sea. Sounds like a very enjoyable life. I love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that, my friend. Super cool. So I've got a couple of bonus questions that I'd like to ask. this is certainly you have a massive following in the world of Warhammer 40,000 and... And that being said, including myself, there a couple of questions that I, that I just super eager to know. one of which being, this is going to sound slightly strange, was Magnus wrong? Did Magnus do anything wrong? He did many things wrong. Many, many, many things wrong. I mean, you know, a lot of the heresy is about people doing the wrong thing for the right reason. And Magnus is no exception to that because, you know, at its core, the heresy is a tragedy, you know, and that's the sort Shakespearean terminology. The tragedy is like the hero. who is blind to his own flaw. Everybody else can see it, but he cannot see his own flaw. And Magnus is the, I'd say the living, but the living embodiment of that in Heresy era. know, cause he, he tries to help people know what he knows, see what he sees, be aware of all the potential around them. But he, the way he does that is terrible. You know, he, he's blinded by the fact, his own hubris, his own arrogance to... because he thinks he's the smartest person in the room and most times he is. But that translate to, can translate and does in several scenes to arrogance where he's like, well, I'll do the knowing better for you because you're not clever enough to see the things that I see. So I will do that knowing better for you. And that way is a slippery slope to totalitarianism to diminishing people around them. Hmm. making things, making decisions that you think are right because of the things you know, but not regarding the wider picture around you. So yeah, I think he did lots of things wrong, but initially they were for the right reasons. Right. uh And, I, love that clarity and the idea too, so often we'll do things for the right reason, but we're doing the wrong things for the right, with good intention. of drama is characters doing the wrong things for what they think are the right reasons. there's even, I I kind of, I hit that nail a little, you know, very on the nose at one point. There's a part of Tizca, the city of Magnus on his home world, has this road and it's. It's literally paved with good intentions and he walks along it to hell. And it's a pretty unsubtle metaphor, but it captures the theme of the book. paints the picture, right? And that's the idea so often, we have to be able to look at ourselves and not be blinded to our own flaws so that we can grow from there and learn, right? Doesn't mean we have to make sure that we're best at everything, but we do need to make sure that the things that we can stop gap, right? Stop the holes in the boat, right? Finding the ways to be able to excel in what you're good at and to grow from the things that you may not. book I read profoundly affected me a while back called The Lucifer Effect. It based on the Stanford Prison Experiment, which as we know now was a fatally flawed experiment in terms of the methodology they used. But the second half of the book is all about doing the right thing and being aware of your flaws and so on. it's when people don't think they have a flaw or they think, well, that would never happen to me because I'm not that person. is precisely when you're more vulnerable to being that person, to making that mistake, is being aware of yourself that, there but for the grace of God go I, or I could be that guy if I'm not constantly vigilant, so to speak, on my own behaviours. And Magnus is the guy who thinks he can't do anything wrong. But obviously he can. by thinking he won't do anything wrong, he makes decisions that are wrong, but he doesn't think they are, doesn't see that they're wrong. know, bursting into the Emperor's Palace and smashing all the wards around the Golden Throne. Not your best plan, but made with good intentions. That didn't work out quite the way it was planned. I love that. uh Graham, this may be a hard thing to say, and it's okay if there isn't one in particular, but is there a book that you enjoyed writing most, and why? Good, that's the, which of your children is your favorite? um It's, I don't know, mean, again, it's, this is an answer Dan gives a lot of when he's asked questions of this, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. My favorite book is the one I'm writing right now, because that's the one where all my juice of cool ideas and the thing that's exciting me to get to this scene or that scene or to pay off that set up. And I'm writing a book right now that is wildly exciting to me because it's kind of a new-ish IP to me. But I think people are going to really like it. But as far as, it's, I mean, I've got a back catalog now of I think about 44, 45 novels. So picking a favourite out of there is next to impossible. The most fun I think I had was the Sigmar. trilogy, ah Heldon Hammer, Empire and God King, because they allowed me essentially to channel my inner Robert E. Howard, because the tone of those was very sort of, you know, it's prehistory, it was the age before the fall of Atlantis type thing. you know, you were getting to revel in all those savage barbarian tribes tropes and so on. And it was a ton of fun to write. you know, the ancient history of the empire and the old world. um But then also you've got things like, well, Storm of Iron, I love doing that, because it was the first book that we wrote for BL really with the villains one. Spoiler alert. A Thousand Sons, I loved writing that one because it was, you know, when you start writing a book, you have lot of intentions of what you hope to achieve with the book. You don't often manage to get all of them. You get a lot if you're doing it right, but some by necessity of pacing, plot, length, whatever, they have to be jettisoned, especially when you're working in a shared IP. But A Thousand Sons was the book where I felt of all the things I wanted to achieve with a particular book, that was the one I think I got closest to fitting most of them in and achieving the things I wanted to do with the book, I felt I got by the end. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I'm also going to cite that I don't think it's lost that the one that you have the most fun writing was also the one you gained awards for, right? I think there's definitely a correlation in terms of, you can usually tell when somebody's phoning it in. um Thankfully, that's very rare, you know, because, you know, it takes a special kind of, yeah, it takes a special kind of stupidity, whatever, or bravery or idiocy, idiocy, and whatever to get to the end of a book. So anyone who's done that is like brilliant, well done. That's something so many people try and fail to do. um But there's other books where you can tell, oh man, you have fun with this book. You are enjoying every page of this. And yeah, think the Sigmar ones were the ones where I felt that I had the most fun writing. I mean, they weren't the quick, were like, think Sons of Elyrian was the one I wrote the quickest. I think I wrote that in about seven weeks. because that one just flew out of me because I knew everything about the characters, the setting, the location, the story, the emotions, the themes. I knew it all even before it started. So that one just flew out of me. But yeah, the three more ones that I had the most fun with. I love that idea. You find that muse, whatever that is, that inspiration, right? And when it begins to pour. It's like, what is it, Kevin Costner talks about that in Raging Bull when he's berating Susan Sarandon's character and he's saying, hey, whatever it is that's making you play well, whatever it is, it's you're wearing women's knickers or your dad's baseball bat or your cap's on back, whatever it is, ride it, roll with it. That's it, if you believe that's what it is, then that's what it is and ride that wave. So often in life too, it's the things, just, us. We feel that it's much like, I think of the placebo effect when I hear you say that, the idea that sometimes we just trick our own mind and believe something is true and then it makes it so, right? It's so much that it's the confidence behind it. It's the belief and then taking that action without the reservation, the fear, right? That trepidation. Yeah, I mean a little bit of fear is good because it will drive you. But it's when that fear crosses into paralyzing terror, not so good. But you know, a little healthy bit of fear of failure is no bad thing. the stick. The carrot and the stick. I love it. All right, brother, I do have one more question I'm incredibly curious to know. There's a book that you had written or an entry for, and it was The Last Church. Being one of the first writers to be able to bring the words of Warhammer 40,000's universe, the emperor of mankind, what was going through your head and how did that feel? That was, yeah, because we hadn't introduced the Emperor at that point and we'd already started discussing the end game of the heresy. As it turned out, we were a lot further away from the ending than we thought we were at the time, but we were discussing how to do that. And we knew that for what we had in mind for the ending of the story, which to a degree people know, um you know, you had to, we had to start introducing the Emperor to the storylines or he would just pop up at the end and be like, who's this guy? You know, we had to sort of move him slowly into the spotlight so that it meant something when the ending came along. But I didn't want to just have him walk on in his golden armor going, hi, I'm the Emperor. um Because I came late to that anthology because I was working on another novel previously. um So when it came time to pitch out a story for it, ah I asked Lindsay Priestley, who was the editor of that book, could she give me a couple of, give me a two line synopsis for each of the stories that was going to be in the book already because I didn't want to spend time duplicating effort if I was like, you've already got a story with these kinds of characters or that kind of story. um And when she sent me that, saw all of them were very action heavy, which is natural. So it's a book series based on a war game and a gigantic galactic civil war. So you would expect that. But I was like, well, my favorite anthologies to read are ones where there's a uh variety of texture, styles, of tones, of voices, of lengths, and what have you. So I was like, well, I want to tell a story. that absolutely has no action in it whatsoever. There's no guns or chainswords or explosions or armies clashing and so on. And can I still tell a story in this universe that often has those in spades? um can I tell a story like that without any of the familiar crutches and still have it be exciting? know, not necessarily exciting as in giant battles, but exciting to read that you want to turn the page and so on. And I kept sort of giving myself like, well, extra challenges, like, well, okay, so there's no fighting in it. It's just two guys in a room or a couple of rooms um talking about the pros and cons of, you know, organized faith in a galaxy, in a world that these guys operate in. And it was one of these things that asked a lot of all of us, of me being able to write it and hopefully hit those markers of library to publish a story that had nothing of the usual things you would expect, the conventions of the genre that you would expect in their publications. And I asked a lot of the readers as well to buy into a story that didn't have all the things that they came to these stories in some ways expecting. And I'm just, very. again, very lucky that it turned out as well as it seems to, because a lot of people cite that story as a favourite of theirs, or, it's so good to see the Emperor. I knew I couldn't just introduce him, like I said earlier, just walking on stage in his golden armour. There had to be this gradual reveal of moments, when he sits down in the chair and it creaks far more than it should for somebody of his apparent size in the story. that his ring that he's got that the priest sees or the stories he tells or the things that maybe you shouldn't know that you're too young to have seen this event you're talking about. It sounds like you were at 100 years ago, that sort of thing. So it was fun, know, being able to do that in a story, being able to play with the big toys, so to speak, is always a thrill. love that. Yeah, I love that. That's fantastic. uh It was awesome to be able to read and um thank you for sharing that insight. It's really wonderful to be able to hear some of the background or story or some of the behind the scenes that comes about to that creation. So often than anything that we do, people see the finished product, right? The same idea of success, the iceberg analogy, the fact that you put in all this time, effort, energy, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the countless hours in that chair, the discipline, right? But by pushing all that through and then finally coming that people see that you've put almost 50 books plus out, right? And with production and they see that, but they don't see all the work, time, effort and energy that comes through. So to be able to share some of that behind the scenes story in regards to the aspect of creation gives us a bit of insight into what dictated the needs and where your mind was at in the moment and flushes it out so much more. I love. always loved like, you know, that's one of the things I lament about this decline of physical media is that I loved directors commentaries, but you know, the Lord of the Rings box sets with all the massive amount of documentaries about how they did the scale of the characters, how they built the sets and so on. That stuff fascinates me. And I love hearing. I love hearing other creatives tell me about their processes, the things they do, because then I'm like, because all of us writers are magpies. You know, like I've listened to, you know, I can be on a panel with 10 other writers and we talk about our day and how we structure it, how we plan a story. And I'm like, oh, that's good. I'm having that. Oh, that's good. doing that. Because you ask 10 writers how they do a thing and you'll get 10 completely different answers. And some of it work, if it works for them, brilliant. I've tried bits and pieces from others. that other people have suggested. Some work, some don't, and I keep the ones that do. So yeah, it's a peek behind the curtain, I think, only enhances the magic to know how a thing came to be. I love it. Fantastic. And I agree. Graham, if you could only play one faction in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, who would it be? Well, the faction I probably play the most at the moment is Ultramarines, which is going to come as no surprise to anyone who knows me or my work. But if I had to play just one, it would probably be my Necrons. because that was one of the first codexes I ever worked on back with Andy Chambers and Phil Kelly. And I just think the variety of models, the miniatures, the play styles you can have, and you get to do the Terminator theme tune every time you move your models. So that's win-win. thank you for taking the time today to be able to share some of your journey and some of your experience. Graham, I do have one more question. In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, will there ever be peace? only the hunger of thirsting gods, I'm afraid. And there is only war, as the quote goes. I mean, it's the clues in the box, it's right there in the box. In far future there's only war. mean, there's sometimes peace in brackets of the end, doesn't quite have the same ring to it. Yeah, no, not at all. Not at all. I love it. I'm super grateful for taking the time today, my friend. been really good. I've enjoyed our chat and just getting to articulate a lot of things that bubble behind the eyes, but you don't really get the chance to articulate them in a way that go, oh yeah, that was cool, or that was a long time ago, or whatever. So thank you for having me on. Much appreciated. absolutely my friend, being able to reflect on things in that sometimes give it a bit of clarity as well. Like just talking about bringing it up. My friends, thank you for joining us once again on our quest to inspire, educate, and empower you to turn your dreams into reality, one mindset shift at a time. We'll see you next time.

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Justin Mills

Host
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Aaron Iler

Producer
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Graham McNeill

Guest