First Act Break
Insights on finding success in the film industry — by young filmmakers, for young filmmakers. Hosted by USC film directors Jiayang Liu and Richard Li.
First Act Break
How to Get in the CAA Mailroom and other Studio Internships | Lillian Lin
Welcome to episode 8 of The First Act Break podcast, the show where we dive into the art, business, and hustle of breaking into the film industry.
Today, we bring on Lillian Lin, a recent USC film school graduate who is now working at CAA, the world's largest talent agency. We chat about how she got into the CAA mailroom and other big studio internships, as well as her experience working alongside agents and executives.
Actually, sometimes they prefer if you don't have that much experience, they are aware of everything that's going on, even though you assume they are not. More people are not expecting to stay at agencies than you would think. They co-op studios, execs, places. This guy wants to do this genre next year. Do you have something coming up? You're allowed to be introverted, but you also need to know how to present yourself. They're not going to try to hide or mask their anger at you leaving. They're going take everything from you as soon as possible because they're like, we care about our clients, our materials. And there are interns who would not be as nice to other interns. In today's job market, it's so unpredictable. Your numbers are going to win, like quantity is going to win.
Speaker 01:Also, I've been told at a company that shall remain nameless, if your application does not have a cover letter, they just throw it out. Lillian, welcome to the show.
Speaker 00:It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 01:Welcome. We're so excited to have you. Just talking about, you know, the corporate side of filmmaking, right? You guys are the people who make the movies happen, really. Yeah. Well, first of all, talk a little bit about your USC journey. And you recently graduated. Walk us through how you got into film and how you got into USC.
Speaker 00:So I stumbled into casting because I saw someone literally ask me for someone to help with their big passion project full of like USC alums um so I stepped up I was like I'm into this field I worked as a producer on like several short films I was like casting was fun um and once I joined that I learned so much just through doing it and somehow I got another project that was even bigger so it just sort of like I sort of got casting on my resume by stumbling into it. But casting actually really helped me get my agency job and my later casting internship. So, yeah.
Speaker 01:Yeah, speaking of internships, Sets are great and a lot of people are hands-on and they do want to just work on set, but there's this whole other sector in entertainment that's all about representation and all about making deals and making things happen. So talk a little bit about your experience in that world, whether it's through internships or jobs at production companies and whatnot. What was your first step and how did that inform your creative process and also mapping out a career?
Speaker 00:Yeah. I didn't really have a very specific map of my career when I first started applying to internships. Early on, it was just driven by stress, like everyone else getting one. If I don't get one, I'm not going to find a job. I feel like we overestimate people's exact idea of their life because sometimes I feel like it's so much chance, opportunity, and we don't always know we're set on something until we've tried it. I feel like that's why... like mentors and professors tell us to just be open-minded about everything because you don't really know where you're going to end up in and where you're going to be great in. But yeah, I started applying to internships when I was It was the earliest I could as an international student because of all the troubles I'm not going to bother you with. But I was basically allowed to start applying around sophomore year. And at first, I got those unpaid script coverage internships. And luckily, I also found one that was working for an independent producer. And I was doing script coverage for him. And I think many of his writer friends were trying to get into festivals. And he actually was so nice. He paid me. I'm like, yeah, I guess that's what the industry is like right now. He was so nice, he paid me. But yeah, and then after that, I got into another slightly bigger company that was head by an executive in the industry, and it was this private personal company. I also mostly did script coverage, but I basically did so much of the coverage and I read a lot of books that, you know, the company was considering to adapt. So I just read so much. And the company was, it had a little more resources. So it was offering like talks and seminars with like writers and people in the industry. So that was the first one that really felt like an actual job. And during the same time, I was applying for I think actually it was before I started that internship. I applied in October, I think, to a lot of internships, but also to CAA. Because CAA is like, I'm not sure about other agencies, but CAA has a pretty long timeline of when you have to apply. And they're pretty specific about when the, you know, like what... place you are in your like educational career that you have to apply so you basically have the only chance you have is the summer before you graduate so you can either be like a rising senior or you can be someone who's graduating in December like me but that's the summer you are allowed to intern for them and you have to apply if you're applying for let's say 2025 summer you have to apply in 2024 October and you're gonna hear back around like January February of 2025 and you You're going to do your interviews and you are probably going to get an offer or not around March. So you're going to hear back by March. So I was doing my spring internship when I heard back from CAA and that's when I started. So I did for that summer, I did CAA and After CAA, I had one more semester left in my education. So that fall, I did a casting internship for Fox. So that's the general timeline before I graduated.
Speaker 01:How did you get your first CAA internship?
Speaker 00:That's pretty crazy. I have reasons, but I think it's the same as us saying... this is the reason I got into USC. Like you don't really know. You're like, I guess I did well in that part, but I don't really know. Um, Like, I've heard, like, you need referrals to even get into those agencies, but I really just code applied. I didn't have anybody's name I could put down. I tried to do that for other internships that I didn't get in. So, you know, like, I guess, yeah, there's no rule. But I think I did pretty well in my first interview. I applied and I heard back from them that I was going to get an interview through a phone call. And I talked to a friend who actually interned for CAA, like a year ago so she was offering me advice on like how to do your interview well and what CIA specifically looks for and what they like to hear so yeah and then I did my first interview you always interview first with the HR department and if they want to refer you to like a specific department that's gonna oversee you then you do your second interview with an agent I think if you're in like a more tech side or a different side that your process might be a slightly different but for most of us it's HR and you proceed to agent or agents but I think the first round is the most important because when I did my interviews with agents I feel like they were just trying to know me like they weren't trying to judge if I deserve the internship I think once you pass the first round you are 80% there so that's the most important one
Speaker 01:yeah did you just see it on the USC job listing thing
Speaker 00:yeah I don't know, I think I was... slightly aware of what agencies do and I was like I want to try it and I didn't even have people tell me like agencies are the most important internships you can get like I know that now but like back then well no you can still get into the mail room like there are many opportunities but yeah like I didn't even know I was just trying everything and I did casting so I thought representation would be something that would be fun to try but yeah I code applied and I did my interview as well I guess. So that's how I got in.
Speaker 01:What was the internship like?
Speaker 00:yeah um it was it was really fun i think it really just opened my eyes to the industry like um like many people would say it's the nexus point of the whole entertainment industry like you you do so much more and you see so much more um you know for example they have like a motion picture department and that's separated into literary and um talent and they have like tv they have games they have They even have like a philanthropy branch. Music
Speaker 01:touring?
Speaker 00:Yeah, music touring. They're
Speaker 01:on the top floor, apparently.
Speaker 00:Yeah. How do you know
Speaker 01:someone? Somebody told me. His name is Gabe Cantillo. I think you might have met him because he mentioned you. Oh, okay. But he's also at USC. I
Speaker 00:had a coffee chat with them earlier. That's very cool. Yeah. Okay. That's very cool. But yeah. And they have like comedy. So there's so much. And you, I think one thing they do very differently with their internship is like they're very caring of what, how much their interns learn. And they do care a lot about like providing return offers. They are actually training you to come back to the company. Like they're not just, we need someone to do script coverage for free. Right. yeah so they actually do care about like making you a better you know candidate for their company so they care about training you and on the very first day they emphasize that you should talk to as many people as you can they don't have to be in your department they don't have to be your agent actually you don't necessarily have to just talk to agents it's even better if you talk to their assistants because they are closer to your timeline like they are very likely also new grads in the last you know five years and they have basically a bit more time than the agents, so they can tell you more. And yeah, so it was very different and very informative.
Speaker 01:What were the tasks you had to do there?
Speaker 00:Yeah, it's different for every department. I was selected for TV talent. It was mainly, I started doing some like avail checks those are things where yeah yeah you know um you know so much okay yeah um so they're basically when um like a new show or like a new season of a show or anything like basically they're looking for talent to fill certain roles and um they get these like they basically get these lists from like other studios asking um The studios were like, you know, around pitch season or around like different season when they have a new show that will send these. um list of roles they're looking for and sometimes attach like these are the criteria we're looking for and they will send it out to like all agencies utaca gersh everything and um they will ask do you have someone that's fit for this role um and the companies will you know first respond with like this certain list of like you know 10 to 20 actors or even more like and um I think I'm trying to remember exactly how it went because it was a while ago. But for avail checks, that's basically because each... Um, each actor is represented by a team. I probably should have mentioned that earlier, but each actor is each talent is represented by a team at CAA. That's the specific way they work. She's like, we don't want one agent to be responsible for one actor. We want like an actor to have a whole team servicing them. So they will be sending this list to the agents, um, assistants that are responsible for the actors. And you first respond with like, are they available for this specific timeline that the film or the TV show is shooting. Because if they're not even available, then, you know, you don't even need to proceed further. But if they are, sometimes they also say tech avail. That means technically available. But, you know, that could be saying they have this season two, but if it gets canceled, they will be available. Yeah, so all that kind of stuff. So you basically sort of do avail checks because assistants are busy too. So you sort of, as an intern, you take over that and you also learn. Yeah, and I also did... like more promotional and marketing things like looking at the tv shows that your talent recently did and um trying to pick out like their best moments to work them into like their promotional materials and i think there were just like many other um smaller tasks like if it's award season you basically watch the awards and you pick out like the winners that are also our clients and you like have to like compile that list and say okay our clients once like you know you basically do like more smaller tasks but it's amazing for like an intern to just get a grasp of like what the industry is like what the agency is like even just learn the names of their clients and yeah so it was it was pretty fun
Speaker 01:let's say like you know i am not a usc student like how would you get how would someone like that get into the industry an internship like this you know
Speaker 00:yeah um i met a lot of the other interns who are from not even film schools um there were people from harvard who are not even in film and there were also you know people in like actual like film schools like chapman um But there weren't that many USC students. There were also people from liberal arts colleges that were not known for film. Just people from all walks of life. So I think part of it, it's up to luck. like getting that first interview. I think referrals can still help, but I did get it without a referral. So I mean, there's still a chance, even if you don't have anyone to refer, I would just say just apply and craft your resume, craft your cover letter, just be the best self you can be. And once you get that interview, really talk to someone who has done it before and ask interview tips, do your best. And yeah, but they're not limited to any school or experience and actually sometimes they prefer if you don't have that much experience i think because someone i'm not sure how true this is but someone has said if you have already worked for like the biggest names in the industry and none of them want you back, then that's showing something about you. So that's why they're like, we don't want you to have like three previous internship with the biggest names because maybe that's showing something. They don't want you long-term. So, but I don't know how true that is. Yeah.
Speaker 01:Interesting. What was something like that was surprising that you learned that you didn't expect to learn? Oh,
Speaker 00:okay. That's a, that's a difficult question. Let's see. Um, What's something I wasn't expecting to learn? I guess it's not that I wasn't expecting it, but it really surprised me just how incredibly smart and hands-on and aware of their world that agency people are. They... Um, I think other companies, you know, sometimes they might forget about what you're doing because you're a little intern, like they'll check up on you, but you know, you're expected to like hand in your work and you know, you're expected to ask questions whenever you have them. Like you should just do your things and you get checked up every once in a while. I feel like agencies really see how people remember your names. They remember what you did and they are aware of everything that's going on, even though you assume they are not like they really pay attention to everything i think that's how they are able to succeed it's just like who people are at agencies everyone who stays at an agency is just so incredibly good at interpersonal skills and i like they always emphasize like you need to read people well you need to understand people you need to um it's like expect your direct supervisor's needs before he or she talks about it. That's something they really emphasize. And it's so funny because a lot of the very senior agents, when they're doing lunch with us interns, they're saying, it's 20 years later I've been at this agency and I still don't know what I'm doing. They will be humble about it, but I feel like there's a certain truth. You don't really necessarily have to have a particular skill. It's not like after working 20 years, as a data analyst you're like i know exactly how to use this like you know software but they have such amazing like extraordinary soft skills that are helping them succeed and sometimes that's like hard to just put into words that's hard to put onto paper but they're really good at that and you can tell once you're in that sort of world
Speaker 01:yeah yeah how do you go about like now because i know um this might be true might not be true but as with every company there's some form of hierarchy obviously you've got the assistants and the interns and then the higher up you got the agents maybe even the partners and the ceo of the company so how do you navigate a world where there is definitely some kind of structure but i think like you said the company does encourage people who are interns and to interact with the people who are on the upper level so how do you think the company handles that hierarchy
Speaker 00:Yeah, I would say not everyone handles it the same way. And there is definitely a hierarchy. But I think as an intern, you sort of get a privilege because they want you to learn about them. You are basically their, how do you say, campus ambassador. Like, they actually tell you that on the first day. Yeah, there's, you know, they want to give you information. They want to tell you about how great the company is. Like, you might even be surprised at how much they are trying to be in their best self in front of you because you're that intern, but you're also that student who will, you know, tell all of USC how great CAA is. So, actually... Initially, I was like a little shy about talking to agents because I did get told by HR that, you know, try to talk to more people on your level because that's going to help you much. And I sort of took that as, you know, don't bother agents too much because if they're not even like if they're not in your department or in too much direct you know relations to you like you have to like jump through hurdles just to like get them to set a time but sort of halfway through my internship I had a mentor figure in my department he introduced himself to us he was an agent in TV talent he introduced us himself to all three of us TV talent interns and he said let's set a time to do lunch just you me and my assistant and I was like oh my god what like that's amazing and he he like he buys you lunch like he does all that just to get to know you so and then when we had lunch he's like why aren't you talking to more agents like we want to talk to you and I would say he's not you know not all agents are like him he was extremely nice and kind and you know willing to share but he was telling me like I should try to reach out to more agents of course still you know reach out to their assistant and try to set a time because their assistants manage their calendar so don't just walk up to an agent and be like hey drop everything i want to talk to you like don't do that still be polite and know your place but you know try to reach out to them and if even if they don't reply like what are you going to lose like they're not going to hate you because you try to reach out um so He said, like, to do your research, show you are sincere. You're not going to waste their time. But reach out to as many agents as you can. He was like, actually send out an email to six agents today. Like, that's your homework. Like, just try to reach out to people. And, yeah, he encouraged, like, us to be brave and just reach out and network. And, yeah, I forgot what the question was. Oh, no, yeah. It's
Speaker 01:like, yeah, communicating between, you know, as an intern, how do you get to it? But that answers my question in that it's... It can be pretty easy
Speaker 00:sometimes. It can be intimidating for sure when you're in that world. But I think you got to be more bold and be polite. Don't waste your time. Be sincere. Do your research. Be your best self. And then just talk to them.
Speaker 01:And now, do you see yourself in the next five years, do you see yourself working more in the agency world or do you want to... venture into different paths because I think CAA understands and a lot of other agencies too that as floaters or whatever, mailroom clerks, that eventually after a year or two or three, they might want to, you know, enter into, you know, be a writer's assistant or producer's assistant. So where do you see yourself into? Do you think you'll have a decision after you've kind of worked some time there, or do you think you have something in mind now?
Speaker 00:Yeah. I want to also address how agencies can be a little different from studios. I think with studios, if you're not on a contract, you actually become an official employee. You sort of expect to stay there and get promoted. I think that's a general path you expect with studios. But with agencies... I that's something that also surprised me that I forgot earlier but more people are not expecting to stay at agencies than you would think like I'm not saying you should use it as a jumping board because many people still go to agencies and realize they really love being an agent and many people are just exploring and it's also a great place to start because we also call it the graduate school of entertainment yeah because you come in with like your cohort your mailroom people and they're the same year as you and you sort of grow together and you become assistants together like you make great friends so for many people it's just a great way to like start your career when you get out of film school but it is true that it takes a long time from an assistant to an agent there are also exceptions with like I've heard some extraordinary people who signed clients when they were an assistant and they immediately got promoted like two years out of college that those people exist but I'm saying like for most of us the normal path to become an agent is going to take you I think around 8 to 10 years between working as an assistant and an agent so that could be a long time for many people and some people do find out that they want to do something else other than agent like they have a great experience but they realize it's not for them to become an agent or they have another dream they want to pursue and now they have an agency experience that's going to lift them to that opportunity And also there are people who say they want to be a writer's assistant. And they start in TV or motion picture literary. And they become an assistant to... an agent who oversees writers producers like writers rooms and they learn and make those connections and once they finish that once they finish their time as an assistant to that person they now have a great like jumping board to their next job so it's there are many people who want to do different things at agencies and agencies understand that they are not like expecting everyone to want to stay or want to become an agent like they totally see how they are jumping board in a way and they sort of pride themselves on that because they also say like if you were you know if you work for CAA once we will always have a connection no matter how like where you go and maybe 10 years from now your old boss wants a favor from your studio that you now work at and you know we have a connection so they love having people there and helping them grow and helping them reach new heights. So that's why I sort of recommend to everyone, if you don't exactly know what you want to do, try to go to an agency. It's a great place to start and grow.
Speaker 01:And just to follow up to that, just a year ago, I was really confused about what an agent did or even why agencies existed. So just for our listeners, in your words, how would you describe... the purpose and the role of an agency slash an agent. What exactly do they do? Because I feel like it can be hard to understand at first when you're just starting out to venture in this industry in general, like why do they exist? I only know like Warner Bros, Paramount and all that, but there's all these, there are these like companies like CA and UTA who play such an insignificant role. So in your words.
Speaker 00:Yeah, I can only speak for the department I was in because I don't see everyone's. So I can't be sure if it might work differently for others. But I would just say they really make phone calls all day. Like that's the most... the most action I see in the agency. But they get so much done in those phone calls. And some assistant told me that their agent is so well in basically getting to her goals that she can start a phone call on different sites. If she's on a call with a studio exec and they want different things, she can end the call making the exec want what she wants. So that's how good they are at their job. like they get so much done in their phone calls and I used to think they have to be in person start those meetings and like you know have actors and everyone present just to negotiate but really that doesn't happen as often as you think and especially I think it also changed after COVID like most of those negotiations those like big meetings that decide the fate of a film or like that gets an actor hired all these things happen in those phone calls and they just make these calls from like you know The moment you see them two, you leave. That's just what they do all day, but they get so much done.
Speaker 01:Would you want to be an agent one day, you think?
Speaker 00:I think it would be fun, but we'll see. It's interesting. CAA says their main goal is just to service their clients in whatever way. That's why they have teams of agents. agents working for like one client because a client might be primarily an actor but maybe he or she wants to direct and now they also have that department of agents ready to serve this client and if the client you know has like a commercial or like if they just won an award and now everybody wants them to do like something you know all these departments can come together to service that one client and the client doesn't have to go out and look for other representations to help him that particular field so I think that's how they're also able to keep so many amazing clients at their agency it's just like the way they function too
Speaker 01:it's cool that you like you know find it really fun because I think that's a kind of a counter perspective than a lot of people think and especially creative people who are trying to get into the creative space. For example, like I'm currently working interning at this production company where my boss was in the CIA mailroom for three months before she got the job now. And she thought, you know, from her perspective, that is, you know, what everyone needs to get into if they want a job as an assistant or more higher jobs, because the mailroom or, you know, working at an agency is like the prerequisite for a lot of these jobs but when she you know was talking to that about um you know working the mailroom to us uh interns most of my pretty much all of my intern friends were like no i don't want to go to the agency it's like what do you think because they think it's like soul-sucking desk job whatever but like what do you think makes you you know enjoy it so much like why is that something you think is right for you
Speaker 00:Yeah I guess I like to talk like I don't see making phone calls as like boring but I understand how it can be boring to some people and I think it's fun making things happen and so many films that we see they are financed by agencies and they basically the whole like the whole induction of the film like from idea to you know finding a director finding a writer like we sometimes think the idea just started somewhere like maybe with the director and like they just found a bunch of people and they just made the film and they just call all their friends and be like do you want to be in my film I guess that's how like film school kind of works but that's not how the actual industry works I was also surprised to learn like how many agents read so much and they find a book they want to adapt and they call up a director and they call up a writer and say i love this book i love this ip we might try to represent this writer we're looking for a screenwriter that we represent to write a script and we're looking for a director we represent to direct this thing and then we're gonna try to you know they're not gonna they're still gonna consider if actors fit um the roles they're not gonna just be like oh we're gonna stuff all our clients into this one thing and it's just gonna be our ca thing That's ideal for them, of course, because all of their clients get to make money on something they created. But yeah, they still try to look for outside talents. They try to look for fit as well. But so much of these products starts in agencies. And I wasn't aware of that. So yeah, I think you are still... very creative even if you're seemingly sitting behind a desk you still get to make these things happen and agencies do still do script coverage they still read materials they still um when they're trying to like you know recommend an actor to like a director or something they still um you know try to like help the actor get it they help the actor understand the role and help them make sure the job lands and they have to pitch so much and it's just amazing like when I hear those phone calls like some agents like they have such a big memory they know what this actor wants to do next year they know exactly what this actor doesn't like and they just keep all that in their like sort of memory bank and they just co-op like constantly they co-op studios execs like places and they basically sometimes even quote pitch like, so this guy wants to do this genre next year. Do you have something coming up? Like they might even say that. So yeah, like so much of the industry happens in an agency, but we don't see that because they're not exactly listed on INDB. So that's something I was surprised to find out. I
Speaker 01:also read like on a lot of deadline articles where, you know, deals happen. I would read in the end that CAA Media Finance brokered the deal. I feel like I've read that sentence like a hundred times at this point even for like very independent films like if some something sells to neon or 824 somewhere in the bottom it's an agency yeah a lot of times the a um brokering the deal are you familiar with how that process works like in your imagination or from what you've learned so far like how would that process be like for for a film say going into a festival or something and having it being sold to a distributor and what's the role of CAA's media finance team in that process?
Speaker 00:Yeah, I wasn't in that department, but I did hear another intern talk about their experience in that department. Because at first when I heard finance, I thought, oh, that's, you know, an econ student who's gonna, you know, I don't know, punch numbers all day. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I thought that's what finance was. But then I talked to them at a party and they're like, I just read, you And I was like, you read scripts in finance? But yeah, so I... I am not particularly sure, but I think they also, you know, read materials and work these things out and find out IPs that are best for adaptation. And I think they also cover the whole process. I mean, as interns, they probably don't, you know, they're not in on everything. But yeah, that's something that surprised me about finance department as well. Like they do a whole packaging deal from the very beginning.
Speaker 01:Yeah. So like from your perspective as an intern, someone who's in the agency like looking out like how does someone like a creative like someone like a director or actor like how do they get representation from a place like ca you think
Speaker 00:I mean, that's an interesting question because I would say it's not hard to get representation, but it's very hard to get representation from the biggest agencies. I think by the time you get a representation from CAA, you wouldn't be wondering how to get representation. It's always like I'm trying to think, but it's very often because I was getting like... the email sort of like newsletter when i was an intern of like oh we just got this client like they sent that out to every employee and it would be very often oh i remember it was i don't know if i can say exact clients like Sometimes you are aware of which clients belong to which agency, but sometimes they don't. So I'm not sure. But I'll just say sometimes a hit show comes out on Netflix and the actor is a young, aspiring new actor who has only been in short films before. So, of course, they don't have a big representation. But if the show becomes... you know, so big, like everybody is calling to see if this actor wants representation. Sometimes if they're British actors and they get a hit show in America, I feel like I'm already spelling the name, but you know, if it's a British show and this British guy doesn't have an American representation, everyone's going to be calling them, like, you know, so it's these kind of people that they're not looking for representation. They have calls coming in and they get to choose. So, that's yeah like it's it's so yeah by the time you get representation from these big companies you you you're the picker like you you get to choose
Speaker 01:it's probably better to choose than beg them to
Speaker 00:represent you yeah right yeah and also the reason for that is you know if they're representing Tom Cruise like you don't want them representing you if you're starting new because they're gonna give all their attention to Tom Cruise like they're not gonna care about you you want someone who actually can spend time on you and want you to succeed and has enough time for you like they have you know if they have a great actor like they can even if they sign you so yeah
Speaker 01:and the other side of like representation is uh management and we took a class together last semester that sort of spelled that out a little bit but just for our listeners um in your in your view what's the main difference between uh a manager slash management company and an agency slash an agent
Speaker 00:yeah um The most fundamental difference is an agency is full of a team of agents that service one client, and they each have their own department. So the agent, let's say a TV talent agent, would mostly look for TV jobs for their client. And then if the client's also a comedian who's an actor, then the comedy touring department would be looking for touring opportunities. So they are... a team servicing the same client in different fields. And the agent is more like a niche, like a specialty. If you're a manager, you're basically doing everything for your client, like from taking care of their life to getting them jobs to mapping their career trajectory. You're responsible for everything. And that's why some actors would choose to only have a manager and not an agent if they realize that's what's best for them in their particular point in their career. And sometimes know people have their wife as their manager because you know that's yeah it just makes sense i guess um so yeah that's the most fundamental difference
Speaker 01:great i mean you were speaking on like you need a lot of soft skills to work at these agencies like can you give some examples of what it is to take you know to be a great agent or assistant
Speaker 00:yeah um I think based on my observation, I think everyone at an agency really are like they're passionate about the industry for sure um but they also understand exactly what it is they're doing like they don't think a task is too small they don't think i can you know bring coffee because you know i graduated from this like top film school i can't do this like small task like they understand that we are all trying to meet this one goal um like assistance mailroom like agents even though there's a definitely hierarchy like we're all trying to make certain things happen we're also we're all trying to get a job for a client so even if you're just bringing coffee you're like it might be helping an agent make the next phone call and that phone call is going to get the job so everyone understands that there's no task too small um and those people have like good interpersonal skills um you're allowed to be introverted but you also need to know how to present yourself you need to speak up when it's important you need to ask questions if you don't understand you just have to understand that your personal impediments cannot get in the way of getting the job done like no matter what they don't really care if you're like a particular personality they don't stop you from getting to the mailroom if you're a certain type of person they don't even care if you're just using as a jumping board but they want to make sure every minute you spend there you understand what the assignment is you know what's the goal and you're willing to do anything necessary to help the whole agency succeed
Speaker 01:so yeah how do you go about like being proactive with anticipating someone else's needs is this something that comes naturally for some or is this like a skill that one can practice over time
Speaker 00:i think it also comes with time just being with a boss for a long time, you understand their personality, you understand if they're you know I guess if they walk certain way they're pissed today and you know how to best approach them you know like just to make sure like yeah the longer you spend with a person the more you understand their needs and to not take anything personally I think is also important as an assistant that's also a question I got asked when I was like doing my return offer interview they're asking like how do you deal with difficult personalities and I said like I understand the goal I understand the task. I don't take things personally because I know there are many things that can happen at work, but you need to be focused on what the true task is and not to let other things get in the way. I think just understanding that and also really paying attention to the people around you, trying to read people anytime you see people, and trying to make sure You know, I think as long as you see the work as the priority, then you naturally know how to approach people who are also trying to reach the same goal. Yeah.
Speaker 01:What do you think is, like, the difference between the top agencies, like CA, UTA, WME and stuff? Like, for example, working there.
Speaker 00:I mean, it's the clients, I think. I haven't personally been with, like, smaller agencies, so I wouldn't really know. Yeah. But yeah, you see the biggest clients. You see all these Oscar winners walking. He
Speaker 01:said in his Oscar speech, he was like, thank you to my CA team.
Speaker 00:Yeah, yeah. It is a team. Yes, it is a team. Yeah, that's important. Yeah, you see those like... big names walking the halls and you're like oh my god I'm actually working at this place like it's it's crazy like yeah and you see those stars like walking their dogs like across the hall you're like oh my god but I think that's the main difference I don't really know about smaller agencies but because yeah
Speaker 01:uh like even WME like that's not like a smaller like do you ever feel like there's like a rivalry between the agencies or I
Speaker 00:mean that exists for sure um I don't really feel it when I'm an intern, but I definitely know that, I don't know how much I can say, but I guess like you're not, if you're trying to go from one place to another, like you can feel the furry, like, you know, like they, like with clients too, like there's a definite emotion with, you know, like like if you're trying to go from like one big agency to another then it's it's like it's big i guess like they really care they're not gonna try to hide or mask their anger are you leaving like they're gonna take everything from you as soon as possible because they're like we care about our clients our materials and it has happened in agency history where some agents leave and take away clients. So they are very sensitive about that. So yeah, you definitely feel that. But other than that, you don't really see the rivalry every day. Yeah.
Speaker 01:Do you feel like a lot of people who work at the agency are people who aspire to be directors one day? Is there a lot of creative people there or is that mostly business-y people?
Speaker 00:There are definitely creative people. Like we said earlier, people aren't one particular way you see writers you see aspiring writers actors directors and you also see aspiring agents it's just like yeah people from all walks of life start at agencies for their reasons so it will still make sense if you're like a creative I would still recommend trying an agency even just for an internship like it's always fun and you learn so much yeah I
Speaker 01:did read somewhere that the director of Hudson Summer Nights with Timothee Chalamet in his like one of his very first roles I think that was the director's like debut film and he also worked at CAA for some time and I think he just one day he just went up to his boss or someone and was like I got this script or something. Something happened where he got his script around and somebody actually liked it and made it happen. So, you know, it is definitely a viable path. Speaking on that, I do know that one of your career goals is to potentially become a showrunner. How do you see working at an agency like CAA as an opportunity to get you there and equip you with the necessary skills.
Speaker 00:Yeah. I'll say like a showrunner is like an ultimate, ultimate goal. That's, you know, that's like a dream if it can happen. But if there's anyone who want to go in that path, who want to be a sort of exec on their own show or something, I think being at an agency, you get an incredible network. You meet people who have done that. CAA represents showrunners. They represent everybody basically in the industry. You can find people a client that's basically doing what you want to do in the future and the closer you are to them the more likely you can learn about how they did it and you might even become friends with them and you know like I'm not saying like you should become friends with clients and stuff but you know the closer you are to what they're doing the closer you are to the inner workings of how you know running a show is to how writing is to how you know a writer's room works like it's always going to help you in the long term so yeah you it's mostly just information and network.
Speaker 01:Yeah. And earlier you talked about how you had an internship at Fox as well. What was that internship? Like what did you, what was that?
Speaker 00:Yeah. Um, I, I think part of it, part of the reason why I got it is CAA too, because I applied in the summer. I was working for CAA and I started working in the fall. Um, and it was, I was working in the casting department. Um, the the whole department was really friendly and my execs were like my supervisors were very very nice and they actually also told me that because i have done like some pd work in the past i did some installations and they said they looked up my website from my resume and they said like that was interesting and they were like it was like i don't think that's the reason why they wanted me but they were like you left an impression so you never know what gets you a job um so yeah be yourself be creative don't be afraid to show anything like if it doesn't fit on your resume like you know put on your website make it cute and like make you look interesting be yourself and sometimes that might be the reason why they you know noticed you so you never know but yeah so I did it was a lot of like similar things to my surprise, there were a lot of similar things that I actually did at my CAA internship as well, because I initially wanted to do casting on the studio side because I wanted to see the other side of casting and representation. And it was funny because the first big meeting I got to sit on at Fox with a meeting with CAA. So it was like, oh my God, like, yeah, yeah, full circle moment. Um, and I saw how my department was pitching things to an agency and telling them about these are our new shows and these are who are looking for and they would even it's very funny because they will be saying like it will be amazing if we can get this actor but we're not picky and we're willing to you know settle for these as well yeah of course not naming names but yeah and the agencies will also be sort of like strategically saying we're gonna talk to these people and we'll see what we can do you know like it It's just so fun to sit in at those meetings and see how people negotiate and talk and still be their best self. And I think the most valuable thing was also just listening to those meetings. I also got to sit on like weekly casting meetings and hearing about how each show is going and the casting department does so much more than just putting an actor on a show they also you know they watch the show when it comes out they watch you know the pilot episode when a new show is airing and you know they pay attention to audience reaction they have like a test screening they also watch that and on like let's say a comedy show they would even pick out that part wasn't funny and they're like but that's That's not the actor's fault. That was like writing. We're going to send it back to the writing team. But also like they don't have power in like I guess like people who are not that close to the casting side. Like sometimes they would have their opinions and they're going to send that to maybe the producing team or the writing team. they don't get the say really it's just a suggestion because they're more on the casting side but they do do all that so it's yeah that's what also surprised me like they do a lot of the things and yeah like they also during pitch season which is like January of every year it's the most busy for them and during the fall it was a little more chill but I still got to do like a project I got to like read on scripts they were currently casting for and I offered my own casting choice and I did my own presentations and a little pitch. So it's just a great way to practice how to pitch and present yourself.
Speaker 01:How do you go about casting, though, especially in that environment? I feel like it must be a little bit different than casting for indie student projects. Obviously the caliber of talent, but how does the company and how do you go about selecting the right actor for the role?
Speaker 00:Yeah, I will say there's no pressure from the casting department because They want you to succeed and they're using this project to help you. They're not necessarily going to judge you on who you pick. So you don't really have any pressure to pick the right people because there's no right people. They just want to see if you can talk about why you chose this actor and this list of actors for that role and how you think of that role. And sometimes what you say might affect them. I think I was... there was this one show that had a role and i sort of called him like an internet baby girl kind of role and i was like i have these actors for this role and um some people in the department knew what that meant and someone didn't and she's like what do you mean like tell me about it like i'd love to learn that's so funny so you know like don't be afraid to like be yourself and just really offer how you think and that's something also I realize a lot of like the big companies do look for they want you as Gen Z to offer your advice because they are looking for fresh blood and they want that because you are unique and you offer your generation's views so yeah and So you really get a whole world of actors to choose from because there's no rule. It's not like at an agency you should pick the clients for projects you're doing. You could pick anything as long as you can justify it. That's
Speaker 01:great. And how did you get the return offer from CAA to invite you? What was that like?
Speaker 00:I think... it happens while you're doing the internship like it's not about the interview because by the time you get the interview they probably already want you they're just trying to make sure you want to come back um so just do your best be yourself um while you're doing your internship um talk to as many people as you can i actually had a little trick that i think helped leave an impression um because they're also telling you that you should write a thank you card to everyone you talk to and i know some people might just write thank you and like you know just give it to them but I was like I'm not like that busy I have some time and I want to make these nice and that's who I am because I always love like decorating little journals and I love like doing that so I brought like my own basic basically decorations I brought like those decorative tapes I did a bunch of like extra stuff and I made those thank-you cards really pretty and I like wrote nicely I wrote like paragraphs and just being sincere to every person I talked to and sometimes they'll just be like oh thank you that's so nice and sometimes I even got emails telling me like did you write that that's so pretty like thank you so much I love it and I I didn't do it because I want to stand out particularly, but I just liked it. And somehow that helped me leave an impression. I think that might have helped. And other than that, just doing your job. Don't be a bad person to anyone. You might be surprised, but there are interns who would... Like not be as nice to other interns because they think they only have to appeal to the upper levels. But like I said earlier, they see it. Agents are agents for a reason. They're very good at interpersonal skills and they see how you treat other people who might be below you or the same level as you. And they do not tolerate that, especially at agencies. Something that CAA says is when we take good care of each other, good things happen. And they see it when you're not taking good care of other interns and they are gonna you know kick you out they're not gonna take you back so like you know be your best self Be good, network, and try to leave an impression when you can, and just be good to people. I think just, yeah, once you get the internship, it's very hard to do wrong unless, I guess, you're a bad person.
Speaker 01:Wait, so when you said you were thanking people and giving them the thank you card after you talked to them, what does that mean? Did you say hi to Steve down the hallway, or was that after... Or is it like after a coffee chat, you would write a letter? Yeah.
Speaker 00:Obviously, if you just said hi to someone, you don't need to write thank you for saying hi. But if you do say hi to someone, try to schedule a coffee chat. Like anyone you meet and talk with, try to schedule a coffee chat. And sometimes they might be so busy. They're like, yeah, we can spare like 15 minutes to try to chat. It's not going to be like, you know, sometimes you get those one hour lunch and sometimes you don't. But any sort of coffee chat like once it's over you write a thank you card that's um at other places and it might just be a nice gesture by agencies it's sort of a must like if you don't write it they're gonna remember too so like yeah like anytime you get a chance to talk deeply with someone and ask for their like experience opinion like anything once it's like Once it exceeds a simple high, you should write a thank you card.
Speaker 01:I kind of learned that early on, too. I was on the set. I was literally just like a boom operator for half a day. And then the director just gave me this thank you card. Oh, really? And I was like, whoa. I felt seen. I was like... That gave me such a heartwarming feeling that even though I was just doing almost like a volunteer help, that somebody actually saw that I contributed. I don't know, something like that. I think that's such a genuine thing that can really...
Speaker 00:Yeah, especially coming from a director. Yeah, I did not expect that at all.
Speaker 01:So that's why I kept doing that in the future. If I'm directing or producing, I try to... write up something just to appreciate the fact that they're even willing to help and do something yeah that's awesome yeah that's smart I never heard of this before really and I'm gonna start doing that yeah it's like a personal touch you know like
Speaker 00:yeah it goes such a long way it does yeah you might think it's just a card but it goes a long way oh yeah
Speaker 01:definitely so I have a question actually because I think a huge part of getting these internships is your resume and cover letter like do you have any advice on like what made your cover letter resume stand out
Speaker 00:yeah um let's see i i have tried all the tips that i've ever gotten i've tried everything and one thing i realized there's no one trick that's gonna get you an offer um i've tried you know like you know looking up templates i've tried like just writing completely from the heart and I've like done those longer ones and shorter ones. I've tried being more like technical and just be like mentioning my skills while also mentioning my experiences and talking about things that's not on the resume, things that are on the resume. I've tried like just completely bringing my own touch. And there are also internships that ask for, what's your favorite TV show from last season? And, you know, I try to put more personal touch into that and then fusing it with my typical cover letter where I talk about my experience and tailoring it. You know, I also, I've tried everything. Also having... After a certain time, you write so many cover letters that you're going to start having cover letter talent, cover letter script coverage, cover letter development, cover letter production. You just have all these ready and then you tailor them. It's what everyone does. You're not going to write a new cover letter every time. It's not realistic. I'll say there's no particular trick that's just going to get you in, but still do it. try your best and try to tailor it towards them and just don't make basic mistakes like you're applying to Amazon but you write a cover letter to Universal that's the thing you should not do because they understand you're not writing a new cover letter to every job but they also don't want to see it in front of their face like oh my god they want to at least imagine you're writing this just for them so Yeah, just be yourself. Try to write it to the best of your ability. Don't stress too much about it. It's more important to write them and send them out than it is to write a perfect cover letter. I think in today's job market, it's so unpredictable. Your numbers are going to win. Quantity is going to win. Yeah. think about finishing your cover letters and sending them out and applying early more than how can I craft this cover letter so it's like you know your college admission letter like don't think too much about it just write them and send them out and do your best
Speaker 01:is there like a certain length that you find works
Speaker 00:for you? I usually do a page to a page and a half wow
Speaker 01:that's a lot
Speaker 00:is it? I
Speaker 01:usually do like close to one full page but not exactly full like single spaced or single spaced Single space.
Speaker 00:Okay, I do. I think I might do a little more than single space. So maybe we're at the same length. Yeah, yeah. Because I want to, I sort of also format it so it looks like my resume because my resume has like this heading that has my name and like all my information. And I make it kind of pretty, not like too extra, but kind of pretty. Yeah. And I put the exact same heading on my cover letter. And then I put my resume in the same document as my cover letter. so when they scroll basically they're always singing my name on the top like there's never a page where it's like they see just a page because i understand they read like you know tens to hundreds a day like if they have to look for your name sometimes they could be like never mind you know wow but if they see your name like multiple times in the same document they'll be like hey that person so i don't know if that works on
Speaker 01:top and then your cover letter As the cover letter document?
Speaker 00:It doesn't really matter. I think sometimes it's just put them in the same document.
Speaker 01:I think that's so smart. Like thinking from that perspective, you know, like if I were reading like thousands of resumes, like if I'm seeing like just another... formatted letter that might be you know
Speaker 00:yeah you might forget who it's from and if you submit them separately then it's even harder you know like they have to like if they like the cover letter they have to be like who is this person again how do I find their resume you know like if they have to go like I've heard that the easier you make them then the easier it is they can accept you like the easier it is they can offer you something so make things as easy as possible for yeah people you're begging things from i guess yeah
Speaker 01:like maybe that's the reason why i'm not getting anything because you don't know that well wait i think the i didn't know it has to be it has to be that long i i write like a paragraph i don't know like half a page yeah maybe maybe somewhere between half and the full page because i was like i just assumed they were too busy to read so much i'm like i won't make you read so much
Speaker 00:yeah but you know like they might just read a sentence but you should write a page right because they see a page also also i've been told at
Speaker 01:a company who shot that shall remain nameless No, actually no. I will not say anything. But a company. Neither confirm nor deny. Yes, exactly. They say you should obviously submit the resume, but the cover letter is optional. If your application does not have a cover letter, they just throw it out. Even though they say it's optional. It's
Speaker 00:a test. Yeah,
Speaker 01:in a way. They want to see that you actually... like they want to see who you are besides like a resume but also they want to see like why you actually want this because it is resources are limited and jobs are limited and if you don't show in some way that you're you and that you are passionate about getting this position then they
Speaker 00:want to see you're willing to put in the time at least like they might not read it but they want to see there's page there
Speaker 01:now richard do you do you use ai on your cover letters actually good question
Speaker 00:we're going there
Speaker 01:i i use it to bounce off ideas i i would write one and i would let it give me some Potential positive and negative feedback and I incorporate the ones that I think are good and I just leave out the ones that are like No, that's not what I meant at all. Like it would give me sometimes pretty bad advice and
Speaker 00:I will just ignore those Yeah, me too. I use it to edit it. Yeah, I'm saying sometimes I will have You know multiple sections and I will put it in and ask like is this paragraph too long? Should I cut this? I'm like,
Speaker 01:yeah, I'm curious How does AI play a role in these talent agencies, you know with it being more? more and more efficient and stuff
Speaker 00:yeah um i mean my experience is from the summer of 2024 so it might be more updated now but um back then like they already acquired this um there's this movie starring tom hanks it's called here and they use ai to make tom hanks look different ages i mean I know people have different opinions about AI but personally I think that's just like one side of the technology that could be good for because you're not going to cast someone else to play Tom Hanks young you were just going to do it with makeup and they probably did but they also added AI to make sure he looks more like that age and I think that's like in my opinion that's a good use of AI and CA actually acquired a technology to do that
Speaker 01:yeah
Speaker 00:like they they acquired the technology and they actually had a meeting to show everyone like how that AI technology works. And I also heard from like an exec that AI is not going to replace you. But if you don't know how to use AI, you will be replaced. That is like
Speaker 01:the fifth time I've heard this. Yeah. Yeah. Like my dad has said it. My other friend not in film has said it. He's pre-med. And then you have said it and somebody else has said it. In many different ways. Yeah. Like it's like, you know, you got to, Yeah, they still want a person to do the job that an AI might be able to do a little bit, but if you're the person who can utilize that while also being... a well-rounded employee, then obviously I think you would be a better choice than just an algorithm. I don't know.
Speaker 00:Yeah, I feel like we're all just regurgitating that idea to everyone, so we hear it so many times. Honestly, yeah. But I think there's some truth to that. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of truth to that. If we're regurgitating, we agree with it. Yeah.
Speaker 01:So, I mean, outside of making films, though, how do you see AI being a scheduling thing or a communication thing, organizational thing? Is that something being used or no?
Unknown:No.
Speaker 00:I didn't see it being used. I guess... if they are able to completely replace scheduling, they still wouldn't replace assistants because assistants do so much more. And it's so like
Speaker 01:person to person that it would be really, really weird if like an assistant is just a straight complete, you know, that
Speaker 00:would be weird. And agents, sometimes like you might hear that certain agents would keep the same assistant for years because they couldn't find anybody else to do the same job. Like, yeah, if a human can't even replace that human, then how could ai replace them like i don't think like at least with the technologies we have now like they're not gonna be better than an actual assistant who fits so i don't think we have to worry about that but if you're like an independent producer you're you're like one man one woman team then yeah i could help i guess
Speaker 01:the other day i heard a statistic that a lot of assistants make um the same amount of money or even less than McDonald's workers? It was crazy because the talents are making tens of millions of dollars, but the assistants make so much less. Is that something you hear working at the agency? Do people talk about that? I
Speaker 00:don't think assistants... talk to interns about that and if you're like i feel like as interns when you're trying to have those coffee chats and learn from their experience you're not going to bring up how does the salary keep like you know but you do see it from like more minor details like you notice it like you see how a lot of them do need roommates to afford to rent a house um because like in la like the minimum you have to pay for like a single person studios like at least 2k and you you likely won't be able to afford that if you are only making your own money, you don't have mommy and daddy's money, and you're trying to make a living as an assistant, you probably can't You know, afford to live by yourself. So, yeah, it's definitely not that much money, but it's the same, I would say, for entry levels across entertainment. So that's not a reason to choose like a studio over an agency because if you're entry level, you get paid the same way. But that is a reason why. People don't stay at an agency as an assistant for many years. If you work at a studio and once you get promoted, you are no longer earning that salary. And that can happen within one or two years of working there. But... at an agency um the path is like more singular like you become you if you start in the mail room um you get promoted to an assistant and you basically get a few dollars added on like it's not a few dollars added on per hour not like you know monthly um but yeah and um you might get promoted to become a coordinator you basically become the assistant of the whole department you're higher than other assistants in a way but you're still not an agent and the next step is an agent so like if you don't And if you don't get promoted to an agent, you're kind of on that salary for many years. And that's what's hard for people who are trying to be an agent. Yeah, because you are on the same salary level for many years. But if you work at a studio, then you get promoted, your salary sort of increases once you become junior, senior level. That salary jumps much faster than being at an agency and waiting to get promoted. And you can always come back to an agency. So you can start as an assistant, get your experience go to a studio or work somewhere else and once you are at an exec level you want to become an agent again that's still possible so that's I mean that's just what entertainment is right now so and at least it's a paycheck it's not like you're freelancing so it's more stable in a way it's just the
Speaker 01:state of the market and industry I've heard that someone from Marshall who is working at like one of the big studios right now as like a like a data person they're making like upwards of 100k a year yeah even though like yes they're working in entertainment but it's not that's not like the typical Like when you say working in entertainment, I think the assumption is that you want to do something on the creative and representatorial side of things. But obviously these corporations also need data analysts. And these are the more techie people and STEM folks who, I mean, those jobs have a very high barrier of entry and, you know, really do need like, good skill set to be able to do so obviously i think that yeah the salary reflects that so i don't it's it's just the nature of nature of the industry
Speaker 00:yeah like you can make it work if you're willing to take that salary for years but that's just generally for the whole entertainment industry and that's why like if you come from like a rich family it helps for sure but i see like people you know succeeding but also you got to be willing to maybe take on a And you might be 30 years old and you're trying to start a family and you're still, you know, kind of on that salary. So it's just how you choose your life to be. I mean,
Speaker 01:I heard what you said about the second job, but I also hear like when you work as an assistant or an agent, that's like almost, that's not a nine to five job. You know, you're working all day, all night. It's 24 hour days. So like, is that something, you know, what is your opinion on that kind of career?
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 00:I mean, that's just what the industry is. It's not ideal, but I guess if you're freelancing, you also don't really have a weekend. You're just hustling. I feel like many people in the industry are doing it for a dream or for your passion. And many people could be earning much higher salaries, but they're choosing to do this. And um I remember hearing this from like an assistant um while I was there and I was asking them like what's I was thinking about getting return offers I was like what's the percentage of people you know who come back after an internship and like you know how many people actually stay at the agency and stuff like that and they responded with something that was pretty vague but I think makes a lot of sense they said um people who want to stay will always stay or people who want to stay will eventually stay and I think that's that's not just saying if you work hard you're gonna come back or you're gonna stay here it's also like if you realize the money isn't good for you you're gonna leave if you realize you don't want to be an agent you're gonna leave if you realize entertainment just doesn't work for you you're gonna leave if you give up on your dream you're gonna leave like if you just don't like the people here you're gonna leave so you know like it's just stick it stick it through until you realize it's not for you or maybe you you win an oscar like who knows i've heard a
Speaker 01:different i've heard this slightly different version of that yeah where it goes the people who make it are the people who are too dumb to give up
Speaker 00:yes that's a more poetic way of saying that when i first heard it
Speaker 01:it made me like chuckle a little bit because it kind of makes sense like if you really if you really just intellectualize all of it yeah i think a lot of people would go yeah no that doesn't make a lot of sense i might just drop out but but most people i think they're just they're they're really they're really focused and so um they they really want to achieve that goal that they just they just keep going keep going and they don't forget about intellectualizing everything just go with instinct and i think that's a pretty um important part of navigating all of it
Speaker 00:yeah yeah and i met a lit assistant who's trying to become a writer one day and i was having a coffee chat with her and she i was asking like how do you feel about the current you know it was during the writer's strike or shortly after and i was just asking like how do you feel about that does that affect your dreams and like you know what do you think about the future and she just responded like if you believe you're good enough
Unknown:Yeah.
Speaker 00:you will always rise above difficulties no matter how hard the industry is right now. And I think that's like a type of mindset that people who are too dumb to give up have. They're like, I believe in myself and I believe I will stick it through no matter how hard it is. So if you're, I guess, the top five out of like a thousand people, if they hire a thousand, you will be hired. If they hire 10 people, you'll be hired. If you believe you are that good and you're willing to stick it through, then you will always have a job. but yeah
Speaker 01:that's a great attitude yeah that's awesome and uh something we do on the show is we have the previous guest leave the current guest a question oh and this is the question that the previous guest left you the question is would you rather change genders every time you sneeze or not be able to tell the difference between what does that say a baby and waffle between a baby and a waffle that was from our last guest it's that kind of question okay wait super offbeat but
Speaker 00:i want to say i'll prefer to change genders whenever i sneeze but also that's assuming i'm living in an inclusive world where people don't like Let's say like if I'm living in a place that's not a current USA, I think that would be a pretty fun experience. If like we're living in a vacuum and nobody's gonna be like, you know, like committing hate crimes, then that would be really fun. But yeah. That's a
Speaker 01:downer. No, you're good. If you were stuck at a deserted island, what piece of art would you bring?
Speaker 00:Oh my god. um like any art like even films and anything any this is so random but it's the first one that comes to mind oh my god i'm blanking on the film's name
Speaker 01:kiki's delivery oh
Speaker 00:oh oh something delivery yes
Speaker 01:delivery service
Speaker 00:yes it was it was my first miyazaki film um i was like 10 and i cry so hard and i cry every time i watch it
Speaker 01:you know what is the message you want your audience in the future to take away from your and your creativity
Speaker 00:yeah I think just me as a person I like to explore uncertainties and humanities and I really like this thing Andrew Garfield once said he was saying something about like certainty is the most terrifying thing
Speaker 01:have you seen Conclave? yes I love that there's a whole speech about uncertainty oh yeah uncertainty is the death of belief Yes. Without certainty.
Speaker 00:You say everything so much more poetically. But yes, exactly. So that's the kind of films I would love to make or any kind of art. I would love to be able to create something like that.
Speaker 01:That's awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on our episode. Thank you, Lillian. That was awesome. Thank
Speaker 00:you.
Speaker 01:Good luck on the mail room.
Speaker 00:Oh my god, yeah.
Speaker 01:You're going to have a great time there.
Speaker 00:Thank you.