Sire Selection

The hosts discuss their experiences and methods for selecting bulls, emphasizing the importance of careful evaluation and the challenges posed by various factors such as EPDs and physical traits. They also touch on family Christmas traditions and activities, highlighting both the joy and challenges of the season. The episode covers a range of personal anecdotes and insights related to both cattle breeding and holiday plans.

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Oh God. Well, you're gonna have to step up on this episode 'cause we, I, I'm not, well, I just started recording. I started recording. Oh, sorry. Welcome to around the shoot. Take it in to, oh goodness. We're missing Corbin tonight. Yeah. For just a scooch of time. For Scooch. Just a little scooch. Is that, is that California thing or? I don't know. I heard it somewhere from somebody sometime, but I did when I just yelled out the door for everyone to turn it down to Scooch. I got, I got heckled by every person in this house. Maybe it's not a word. It's not a word. Do you ever think that sometimes where you're like, man, Joe just said something that was a wild all the time. A hundred percent of the time of what you're talking about, nobody knows. Oh, I might do that sometimes. Listen, um, if you're just joining us, we're without Corbin tonight. Corbin had some Christmas. Things to attend to, and it's just gonna be me and Joe. And who knows? Next time, next time it might not be Joe. Maybe it'll just be Corbin next time by himself. He'll just be talking to himself. Oh, he wouldn't mind. He wouldn't mind. Didn't he last year though? Was it last year that he went to, um, Branson, Missouri with Myah or something too? I don't know. I feel like they do, they do a good job at Christmas time. I, I do not. Vince, I will tell you, I, I love the lights. I love the Christmas season. I love all that. And I do a terrible, oh, we looked at lights tonight. I was gonna send you, Amy said, what are you filming that for? I said, what are you a Scrooge? Yeah. No kidding. What's wrong with her? I said I was gonna send it to the guys. Man, I love me some good Christmas lights. I'll tell you that right now. So this is like right down across from the jabs skin restaurant. Yeah. And it's a, it's a little tiny park area and the, so they were setting it up one day and we went down there for lunch and I wheeled over there and I was like, what's going on here? And they said they used to do it every year and they kind of quit doing it and they're starting to do it again. So all the businesses, and I didn't get all the trees, but all the businesses in that area go and put up and decorate a tree in that little park. It was pretty neat. Oh sweet. What's that? What's that next to it? Are those all the houses or those Yeah, those that houses that them people in the houses are freaking, they deck it all out. Do you see that? That's crazy. Oh yeah. That's incredible. Well, what was the Christmas tree you sent me that looked on point that had to have been your mom's? That was mom's real tall, skinny, oh man. Not as skinny as Corbin's. I think Corbin's was so skinny that like a light pole couldn't even hide behind it. It was really, excuse me. I dunno. I should ask him. You probably don't know. It was a fake one. I would be willing to bet. Well, we got a real one this year, but I wasn't too involved in it and it's a really pretty tree. Listen, did you check it for squirrels? Um, we did not. Christmas vacation all over again. Is that not the most quotable movie of all time? I saw a shirt today. I can't say it on here, but have you ever sat down to watch that movie and not had somebody step on the lines and repeat 'em? Oh yeah, yeah. Everybody, I mean, everybody knows that movie and everybody thinks it's the greatest movie of all time. It is a pretty freaking timeless class. What is your favorite Christmas or holiday movie? Oh boy. Favorite Christmas or holiday movie? Um, I, I would say I like that one pretty well. I would say I like that one pretty well. Amy would probably agree with you. I love four Christmases. I don't even know what that means. Oh my God. Have you never seen four Christmases? No. Vince Vaughn and Reese Witherspoon. It is, wasn't it? Talking about going to all the four parents? Yeah, well, they're all divorced, so Yeah, they have to go to four. Oh gosh. If you haven't seen it, Joe, you have got to watch it. His, his, he goes to his dad's and his brothers are, uh, like cage fighters and they just beat the snot out of him. It's hilarious. I need to watch that. I'm gonna, I'm writing it right down right now. And, and, um, they buy his dad. His dad is, uh, oh God. What is the stupid guy's name? Oh my God. I just drew a blank. Okay. Um. Robert Duval is his dad, and he, he buys him a, a satellite for Christmas and they're gonna install it. And he says, no, no, no, they're gonna come install it. And he says, if you think I'm gonna let a sexual predator into my house and go through my under par, it's a liquor robbery fall. It's so funny because he was dead serious. He's like, if you think I'm gonna let a sexual predator in my house, you got another thing coming. So, other than lonesome dove, what is your favorite role that guy's in? Uh, probably open range would be one of them. Um, I'd have to think about it. Mine would be secondhand lions. Oh yes. I forgot he was in that. I absolutely love that movie. I haven't seen that movie in a while, but it was a great movie. It's a good movie when he is wanting to whoop all those kids. He's like, you just got outta the hospital. Yeah. As well as the kid now. Now pick, you better pick that knife back up. Oh goodness. Oh, what have you been up to? We haven't talked about this one in a while. We were heavy on the banter on the last episode and that was good up. But what have you been doing? Breeding cows and Nate. Is building a hay shed for his hay business. Um, he's selling square bales and so we kind of finagled the equipment shed this year for what he had, but he's gonna have different cuttings and gonna do some straw next year and stuff like that. So he's building a shed. So we're working on hauling dirt, um, borrowed a big excavator and borrowed a dozer and a dump truck. And we've been moving dirt for a week. Not, not all of it for the pad. We just started the pad two days ago, but we had to move a bunch of tops, soil and pre the chi pit had to be kind of pre, we had to spend some time up there, fix the road, going into the pit for the dump trucks and stuff. You explained that to me on the phone, maybe for some of our listeners, dive into that. What are you even talking about? Um, it's like out here, nobody would even know when you say move the top soil, get to the church. I gotcha. Well, a lot of people don't have church or know what church is. We just call it church. It's clay and rock and it just makes a good sub, you know, a good base for buildings and roads and, and we have it packs good or whatever. Oh yeah. We have a plethora of it. I mean, we've got only, we've only got maybe six inches of topsoil and then you got a layer of subsoil and then you got this red clay church and that's what all the dirt roads are built out of around here. And, and so you're saying Nate's building a barn, are you guys gonna have somebody come in and build the barn? Yeah. To get the pad set? Yeah. Yeah, we'll get the pad set and then probably, uh, there's a couple different companies we're gonna visit with them and see the best, best price or whatever. I mean, they're gonna do the same thing, so. Okay. Do you have to, you guys get enough wind? You'd have to close the sides in. Huh? Uh, two sides will be closed in. And we're actually talking about possibly doing some doors on it too. But we got it facing the east. And I'm not saying we never get rain from the east, but it's very, very rare. Sure. So, but if he's wanting to fill it all the way up, we're gonna have to put some doors on it. And a square bale business, does that mean little square bales? Yeah. Or big square bales. Yeah, little squares. What is wrong? Are you getting attacked? I don't know. Apparently they didn't listen to me saying, turn it down a scooch. Well the dog didn't hear you. My God. I don't even think that. Even pull that out. It won't even be on there. Yeah, I don't think it'll be on there. Oh my God. Sorry about that. No, uh, what is that, Chuck? I thought you was seeding well, Chuck, was that Chuck? Was that Chuck? That is Chuck. It is Chuck indeed. And, and just get ready for the people to start screaming at Chuck, which is actually louder than Chuck himself. I do that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we seated. Oh God, we seated. We do the seven and seven. So we seeded three, three weeks ago. No, two weeks ago. Going on three weeks, weeks ago. Two weeks ago. Actually it was three weeks ago today. Yeah. We already bred everything. You're done. Uh, we put in eggs Saturday. I've got a few straggler cows and a few straggler heifers. Yeah, I'm done. Matter of fact, the last two years, or last two seasons last spring I did it and I did it this time. Sunday was our last day for reset heats, and I didn't have any Sunday morning. So I went and got the bull and there was six that didn't show heat. So there was two by that afternoon the he'll, uh, he got them cleaned up so I didn't waste a whole heat cycle. So I think that's working. It sped those, some of those cows up, you know? Yeah, we were talking about that, how some of these later caver even, you'll put a cedar in 'em to jump start a little bit. I did, and like me and Blake were talking about that and like, I think there was eight, eight lake caver that were not very far postpartum. We went ahead and did them two and I want to think only two of them, two or three out of the eight didn't show a heat. Oh, wow. Even a, even a young commercial with twins, she cycled. She cycled a little late. The bull got her, but I mean, God, she was the very last one to calve, so it would've sped her up. If she sticks, it'll speed her up. 60 days. Wow. I don't know that she'll stick, but even if she can cycle the whole point to it is it, it gets all that going quicker. Right. Um, even if she breeds off the next heat, she's still sped up over 30 days. Like 40 days. So what's wrong with that? Oh, I would agree. I think that's the only way to go. So how many different locations were you breeding at? One, just right at the house. We're we're spoiled dude. Everything funnels to that barn and, um, the heifers are on one side of the barn. And we feed them in a little lot. So all we gotta do is trap shut the gate. When they come in, if we see some activity and the cows, they all come up to eat silage and whatnot, and we just shut the gate behind them unless there's activity way out in the field and we'll have to go get 'em. But we ride through the cows and check them. The heifers, it's a bigger kind of more pain in the neck, so we just trap 'em and watch 'em and they'll have stickers. They'll all have stickers, but we watch 'em to see where, who's where. You know, some of 'em are maybe already outta heat because they came in after we left the night before, and some of 'em might just be coming in. So we kind of sit there and watch 'em and try to gauge it best we can. I got an interesting one. This isn't our topic, but here's one for you. Do you have any tips and tricks for people in a synchronization program? Not just like, I'm not saying use seven or seven or don't, but do you have a tick or, or, or a tip or a trick about like, this is how we put the patches on, or this is how we use needles or whatever. Um, I tell you, the pa do you use the ester tech patches? Oh yeah. I love 'em. Do you heat 'em up? I freaking heat 'em up on the hood of the pickup or on the dash of the pickup. Okay, so we're in a barn. Yep. We, I've got these little butane torch pens. They're about the size of a cigar, and we'll peel it off, run the torch across it. We, we started out with a cigarette lighter, but if the wind's blowing through there at all, it blows. You know, you can't use the lighter. So we got those torches. We just wave it across it a few times. Really good. Make sure you're getting all of it. Good. Stick it on there, man. You, it's all, it's almost impossible to pull 'em off. But this time of year, wouldn't you say? If you don't heat 'em, it's impossible to keep 'em on. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like absolutely. They start to get hairy. Yes. And there's probably a little dust in their skin or something. Yes, or Or if it's wet, what do you do? If it's raining, what do you do? If it's raining? I guess I've never really encountered that, Vince, but we put 'em on the hood of the pickup. We use a gas pickup. Yeah. Don't deal with these new diesel pickups. You'll create a problem, but put 'em on the dash and get it. Just roasting like so. See, you're the problem with Californians, what? All the exhaust is just sitting there messing up the ozone. That's right. I should use butane. I should just burn butane because it's cleaner. It's cleaner. Do you have a solar version? Do you have a solar way to do that? Maybe Elon's. Maybe Elon's working on that. He's straight full. Oh, he's a smudge pot To heat him up. So if it's raining, we're we're fortunate enough to have a big barn and we can bring. God, we could bring 50, 60 pairs or more in there and sort 'em, and they'll all be under roof. Um, so my point to that is if it's raining out, then they have a little time to dry. Okay. But when we bring 'em up the chute line, if they're wet, uh, we've just got a, a blower there from showing. We just keep a little blower by the chute. Uh, blow it out best we can. Um, and then I'm sure you could probably do it with a rag, but even, even with a blower, they still kind of feel a little damp. Mm. But I wonder if a guy could use a huge air compressor. Oh yeah. You could do that. Any, anything making air, but we just, we have a blower sitting there. Right, right. It's just easier know the place. And you got that long hose and you're not listening to a motor. Right. The place I used to feed bulls when it was ultrasound time. Yeah. They had somebody in the back, in the lead up with a huge, uh, air tank. I mean, huge cleaning where they were, were gonna cheer em, kinda tear out your shop or whatever. Yeah. Where they'd cheer 'em, they'd blow 'em out like that. Oh, that's a great idea. It was awesome. It was a great idea. Absolutely. It was. Yeah. We, we just use a blower as they come in the chute. We didn't have, it's not set up, but like, you can go down the whole chute line blowing out tail heads. Right. Uh, there's a little catwalk on our old wooden alleyway. How many can you stack up? Oh, 10. It's perfect number. Yeah, it's great. It's great. I think we can stack, we can stack nine heifers or eight cows, and that's my tip or trick is to try to do as much as you can behind the chute, so, you know, with, with it, with, is that a hold? Is this behind the chute since Corbin's gone? Oh, it is Behind the shoot. Yes. Yeah. I, I, I agree. I like that better than alternatives I would think about, but because a couple just came to one, I agree. You know, if you can do a lot in a chute line Yeah. Because then when you crack that door come breeding time, those cows think that they're just gonna flow through. Yeah. And it's just a lot of times, I don't know about you, but I would guess that you may breed a big chunk of cattle and you've got extra help there, but you may breed a chunk of cattle by yourself too. Yeah. Because it's late at night or whatever, and nobody else is around or, and that's, that's how it gets for me sometimes the early earliest ones, why it's not here yet, or the late, late ones, you know, I don't expect him to stay and then travel another two and a half hours home. And so by doing as much work as we can behind the chute, those cattle flow through so well, another tip is I always try to use the smallest gauge needle and everybody will always say, oh yeah, for leak back. For leak back, no. Like, especially those donors, I'll use 20 or 20 twos. You think they dont feel it as bad? I think they don't feel it as much. Yeah. I don't think they feel it as much. And especially if you're gonna give a lot of shots. Yeah. Those will get sour to it and not want to come in and stuff. And so Definitely use an inch and a half needle. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's not, that's never on a protocol. We're gonna start putting it on some protocols that we do, you know? Do you think, not, not to interrupt you, but do you think No, it's fine. Uh, on the inch and a half needle thing. Okay. Oh, a, is it long enough on a fat, fat cow? B is it too long on a skinny cow? Uh, I don't know. I'm just, I don't know the answer to that. I know I'm, there's been a couple of skinny cows I've shot and I was like, I don't know if I'm, even, if I'm going through it. Well, I mean, you come out the other side. No, but you know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying? Where did go into. I mean, it went into her, it's in her body. Like I'm just saying, like, is it, that's kinda what I feel on some of these skinny ones. I was like, hell, I can get a biopsy here. I don't have very many of those, but I have had some, no, I And on the, on the super fat cows, are you even getting through the dead gum fat layer? Well, I definitely think on them really, really fat cows, you gotta be very, very careful where you put it in their neck or down low below their, I'm talking about in the hip, not in the, not in the neck. Yeah. And right there on that flat spot of their hip on a fat, fat cow. I think some of them cows have two inches of fat easy there. Yeah. So I'll say this on donors. Um, a lot of times I'll, unless they are just a raging winch and it's so uncooperative, I'll do it in the butt cheek, low thigh. Yeah, the FSH, that was what our, uh, our vet has prescribed that our, our repro vet. Yeah. He said all donors though. Actually, he even, he even wants the donors that aren't fat all down there. He just thinks there's more meat there for absorption. All those cows are gonna go into the grind someday. It's not gonna be A-A-B-Q-A issue. Um, that's, that's what our vet is. So are, did he say for everything or for FSH? Uh, for FSH because I was told, and I don't know how true this is, I'm not a vet or whatever, I, I believe it was a vet that had told me to not give loot down there because there was somebody, you know, they get covered in manure, you know? Mm-hmm. Certain times of year. And it took the manure in with the needle and there was some sort of reaction. But the manure and the loot and their muscle. Hmm. I've never heard any one person told me that, one vet told me that, so I just never did it. I mean, I just didn't know if you'd heard that or not. I haven't, but that's obviously a concern, especially in the springtime, if you're gonna be doing that. Well right now ours are covered in crap. Are they just really washy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Ours are pretty solid right now. I mean, they're looser than normal, um, for this time of year, but they're eating a lot of dry forage. There's some green forage as well, but they're still dry to mix in and keep 'em kind of tight. But I was thinking of something else when you were saying that. Oh, how about a slap shot? You ever use a slap shot? I have years and years ago. I don't have one anymore. I don't have one anymore either. They make 'em, they still make 'em though. Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's super, super handy deal that I had for a couple years there and I swore by it. 'cause, uh, a friend of mine went to, he worked for a big outfit in Montana. Um. Purebred outfit. And he said they did everything in the lead up, but they do like 20 cows back there. It was that big. Oh, wow. And they just put that slap shot in there and she can move forward back and it wasn't really a deal. Yeah, right. And you're not chasing it, trying to push the plunger and you don't bend a needle all the time. What do you do about changing needles on it thing? Oh, I'll bet you they change 'em. I'll bet you guys like that would change 'em every five to eight head or something like that. Oh, I'd change every head. I didn't use to, but I do now. Yeah. I think for some scenarios you definitely want to change it every time. I'll tell you one thing about changing 'em every time. Um, I think you use a sharper needle and that's probably better from a, from a animal Absolutely. Husbandry standpoint. Yes. They don't feel it as much. I even said on FSH on donors, Vince, I, I will draw up the syringe and put a fresh one on to put it in the cow. Huh. And um. And I learned that from a friend of mine that was going through some cancer treatments. And then he, he was doing something, he was living by our shop and he'd hang out in our break room and stuff, and he was doing himself shots. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got a break room in your shop? It's not glamorous. I should do around the, around the shop. You wanna see around the Colorado? I'll do it on the shop. Hey. Hey. I can, I can compete on that one. Uh, it is not fancy nor glamorous, but anyways, he would give himself shots. Yeah. And he learned quite quick. He's like, do not give the same needle to, to put it in his body as he drew it up with. 'cause even that rubber stopper dulled it just a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. So, yeah, so I mean, you gotta choose what's right for you. I think BQA stuff is like every, every eight to 10 animals or something. And some people do that and some people don't. You know, some of that stuff is so unrealistic. Um, I sat through, the first time I ever sat through a BQA class, they were telling you, um, how wide your chute lines needed to be, had to be 26 inches. I was like, dude, I'm not getting a cow down 26 inches. Oh, I know it's not happening. I mean, ours are 32 or 34 and like, we have some get, almost get stuck. Wouldn't you say though, that all those certification programs or a lot of them, they cater to the extreme end of who needs to be hearing them and those probably aren't the people that need to listen to 'em anyways? Yeah, because. They're probably starving their cows to death. Not good animal husbandry or nothing. Exactly. So instead of me saying, I mean what I said, I know what you meant. I know what you meant. They should be listening, but they ain't gonna listen. No. And so it's a bunch of things that there, there are a bunch of people out there who are already doing the right things, who are probably have better practices than some of these boiler paper practices that are out there. But then of course, you know there's a certification program and someone who needs to run the certification program and then all this crap that comes along with it. And I'm, I'm not crapping on BQA or any of it. I'm just saying that a lot of those things, as an example, could have a little bit more real world influence. Exactly. A hundred percent. So do you wanna get to our topic? What are you talking about? The, all these bulls that we see flooded on social media that are really not all that good. Bulls. Did I say that wrong? Wrong? I don't even know if I know what a good one is anymore. You know, what is a good bull? And I mean, seriously, like everybody defines it differently. And are they really wrong? Not if they're writing the checks and making it good on their customers and being transparent. Right. Well, I, okay, so let's just say, I don't think that's a good bull, but you think that's a good bull? Mm-hmm. And I don't think he's a good bull just because I particularly don't like him. He's got good feet. He's, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. Nothing totally detrimental. Um, does that make you wrong or me wrong? Does it matter how many people would look at the bulls that we use and say, well, those bulls are not very good because their EPDs suck. Absolutely. Does that make them right or does that make us right? Yeah, I guess I've just always said that as long as you're truthfully. Explaining what the cattle are and describing them, the free market will figure it out. The problems I have is when people say things about feet one way or another, and then you find out that, well, you actually get behind the scenes and you find out they trim every one of 'em, or they do this or that, and then they justify it by the EPD. They have, or, you know, those sort of things frustrate me. Um, but I do think that, you know, or, or as an example, let's use an extreme. Let's just say you have the best show animal on the planet because Oh my gosh. Show animals. Yeah. Shaggy, shaggy sided, shaggy legged, monster legged, you know, they all say perfect structure, which means a huge tailhead and they don't pop on their pastors. That's perfect structure in the show world that they can't hit their tracks. Right, right. Um, but let's just say that you have that bull. You don't need to tell everybody that those cattle will be prime yield grade one. That's right. That's right. And if you're raising carcass cattle where you're targeting retained ownership in prime yield grade ones, you don't need to tell everyone that those ones would, you know, win Denver. Right, right. So, because they're not the, they're not, they're probably not going, they're not going to. But here's the thing, how many people realistically I, and I'm gonna say it's way more so out west than it is around here, retain ownership and benefit from it? Oh, not very many, because once again, then last Monday, we hauled a load of cattle off and nobody asked about EPDs. Nobody asked to see their registration papers. Nobody asked what the dollar C was. They just paid me by the pound. And they probably sold all right. They really did a, I had, um. I had four problem breeders and they brought 2,600 a pop. That's pretty dead damn good for cows that won't breed just like hamburger cows, I guess. Holy if some, if some, if somebody bought those and took 'em home, that's their problem, not mine. Right, right. But, but that's the market. I, I heard rebred cows out here were gonna be about, it was gonna take $3,000 to get 'em started. Wow. Which a rebred cow are for most everyone in California is a fall caver. Um, there are some spring cavers and some northern climates, but generally speaking, they're fall caver. And so a lot of times when these big pre chicks come from the Midwest or even up into Montana in the Dakotas, a lot of those open cattle will come west and guys will turn bulls out with them, and then they sell those as what they call rereads. And Rereads, were gonna be about 3000 to get 'em. So the Rereads, rereads don't fit your calving, but you get 'em bred by the bull and then sell 'em as bread, whatever, for somebody else to fit their calving. Some people, some people use that as a business model, so they'll bring 'em in, and those cattle never preg up as good. There's some risk associated with them too, right? You've obviously got the risk of disease or infertility or a lot of things, right? So the smart producers are the ones who keep their bulls separate, they test their bulls, or they use old bulls that they were gonna can anyways, right? Right. But with that set of cows, they're isolated, whatever. We've had customers who have made cows out of those Bo, or they made cows out of them too, the ones that breed right up. And it's like, well, she's a young cow that had a hard, hard, hard first year in Montana and she probably milked really, really hard. And so right, we're gonna breed her. And then. They've got some great life outta some of these reboot cows. Yeah, yeah. Um, it's been a really good investment. And then there's been others who treat 'em almost like a stalker calf. But the good part about those, they do act a little different. It's, it's funny to say that, but these dry cows, I don't know what it is about 'em. When you go to gather big country, they act different. Um, but they aren't as hard to gather or don't travel as much as a stalker calf would. And so that has an appeal for some people too. And, and sometimes it's not suitable for stalker cattle. It's more suitable for cows. And so put some cows that are rereads and the, the flexibility about those cows is you can, your death loss isn't as high and then you can choose to make cows out of them. You can choose to sell 'em, you can choose to sell 'em as pears. You know, depending on your financial situation, what you're gonna do and what the projected markets are. Um, you can go a lot of different ways on 'em. Now, the downside is a cow eats a lot, a lot more than we would think, you know? Yeah. Because I, I, I was thinking at one point, you know, man, these cows, they, you turn 'em out and they get fat so easy. Maybe a guy should be buying some of these thin cows and then fattening them up out on grass and then reselling 'em. Well, yes, that could work too. And some people I know do that, but, um, they're pretty inefficient. I mean, there's more efficient ways to do it if she had a calf on her side or dog or something. Right. So I don't know how we got on that. Um, but, uh, how do we even talk about, I don't, I don't know. You, you, you chased a rabbit down a hole. So anyway, choosing the right bull. So, you know, it really just depends on what you're, you're going for and what your market you're trying to hit is. Because, you know, if. If you want to do the numbers thing, go for it. And you need to use the right bulls that are gonna help you sell animals. And that's the whole thing, you know, whether we believe in these EPDs or not, they may not be the first thing that we look at, but I definitely look at 'em because my customers will look at 'em. And whether that number in that box is factual or not, they, they're gonna read it. I mean, okay, let's, let's take this. I had this conversation with a friend of mine the other day, the milk EPD. Well, that's probably one of the most, I would think, one of the most inaccurate, immeasurable EPDs. But if that thing says it's an 11. And I think I need a 25 or a 30. I'm sure not gonna use an 11. I'm not gonna use an 11 on one that's already a 15. Even if that thing might make more milk, it's still that number in that box. And if I make some bulls and guys are here to buy bulls, and they look at that number in that box and they have a minimum number that they try to go by and that thing is way off, they're not gonna buy that bull. No. And cattle's the only one where we seem to get really twisted on that, Vince, because if you thought about it like your calf crop, your bull crop is your corn crop or your burning crop, right? Right. That's what they are. Would you use. A variety of beans that your co-op said, you know what, we ain't interested in making them beans. Right. Right. Why would you do that? You be like, well, I'm pretty convicted. This is the kind of beans I'm gonna have. Right. And they'd be like, that's fine, but you better figure out how to sell them because Right, right. Gonna buy 'em. Well, and the thing about it was this particular bull we were talking about, the pedigree says she should milk just fine. Mm-hmm. I mean, you, you boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. All these are milkers. But for some reason, genomics said she wasn't gonna milk. They killed that bull for everybody. Right. Now, fast forward six years down the road, four, four or five years down the road and there's a lot of wet daughters, maybe. Maybe you can convince some people to buy 'em. You know by the bulls that are lower in milk and you could say, look, here's all the daughters outta these bulls. They're milking just fine outta this particular sire. Well, let me use my bean example again. What if you had your bean salesman come and he said, uh, I don't know these numbers Vince, but I'm gonna use easy meth. This bean is gonna produce 10 bushels per acre. This bean is gonna produce two. And your buddy called and was like, that two is bs. Vince, I know it's gonna be an eight or a 10 in R. Correct. It's gonna be just as good. You are going to tell him. Well that's, that's fine. Once you prove that out, right. If it's unproven, I can't take that risk. Correct. Correct. And I think that's where we need to bring these EPDs into context a little bit more. We've talked about that a lot with people and they think we're anti EPD. Well. You know, I, I look at 'em as a tool. Absolutely. Now, when we start talking about practical reality and what our environment can hold, and then the ones that are proven and the ones that aren't to perform to those levels. Yeah. I mean, I think they all need context, right? Just like you would if you were calling about the beans. Now, if that said, you know, that that seed salesman also said, well, you know, this, this two bushel bean, you just plant it and leave it alone. Vince go on vacation to Panama City Beach, but that 10 bushel bean, now, uh, in two weeks I'm gonna have you put on this fertilizer and in four weeks I'm gonna have you put on this fertilizer, and then in six weeks you need to come back with some fungicide. Right. And you ain't ever gonna go to Panama City Beach. Right. Then you can weigh that, and that's kind of where we're at with the, the germ plasm of Angus cattle, I believe, or in beef cattle in general. Is we've gotten into a realm of cattle that requires so much management to achieve a lot of those genetic predictors. Um, it can be problematic for people if they don't know the reality. Those numbers were vetted in. But you, you called and discussed milk with me when you were doing your SI selection and, and I think we're pretty much dead on. I mean, I don't like seeing the big outliers. I really don't on either side. Right, right. I like seeing the middle of the road, you know, but you, you said who's right. You know, I, I don't know. I kind of, I feel right now the climate of the beef business and it's not just Angus cattle. Um, let me back up and say 10, 15 years ago, you could have found bulls that we could have sold range bulls out of that could compete at Denver in spots. Yeah. Um, you could find some bulls that had some really needle moving EPDs for carcass traits that still had kind of a neat look to 'em. Um, you could find some bulls that you knew would make amazing easing daughters who still had some growth that was in line with what was kind of average for the breed or around it. And now it just seems like everybody's taking their horse and run a different direction. Is that, is that what you feel or no? Yeah, kind. I think I do On the show thing. The show thing has gotten so extreme that if you're gonna compete nationally, you gotta know that those heifers that you're buying or raising or whatever, are never gonna go beat cows. They're so extremely. Made for that look that they took all the maternal, the, the milking abilities, the the mothering ability. You can flush 'em and put 'em in recepts and the recip can raise them. But that doesn't mean that that made a good cow. It just means that she won you a purple banner in her show ring. Um, I do see more bulls that have that check the boxes of the numbers. Guys that have a better look to 'em, not all of them, but I do think there's several more now than what we had. But then I think that, and then I see. Blah, blah, blah. Pop up on Facebook and think, yeah, he might be a 2.4 on marbling, but he looks like a hotdog with legs. He's terrible. I would never use that bull. And I think there's so much of that going on that it's really hard to, I wouldn't say, I tell you, I'm not trying to throw the bull studs under the, under the bus or not, but the good bulls are not in bull studs. The majority of the good bulls are in people's pastures and you need to contact them. I, I think they've lost focus. I think they're more focused on the marbling and the dollar C and the ribeye and all that nonsense. I, I, I truly think that you, yeah, you might find one here and one there, but I remember years ago, I mean, gen X had a lot of good bulls, more so, oh man. More so than most studs. And I'm not trying to throw them under the bus or any of 'em under the bus, but they changed their focus, uh, because they probably wanted to compete with all these guys that doing beef on dairy or whatever it might be. But they, you know, I flipped through those catalogs and there's not a whole lot that gets me charged up. Do you think they can't afford the ones they wanna buy too? Oh lord. They're paying way quadruple times what they should for some of these high number bulls. Yeah, I guess you're right. I guess you're right. But I do see a lot of quality bulls. You know, it seems like they'll get partnered up on some, but there's a lot of expensive bulls selling to private people now too. Yeah. A 80, 50, 80 $5,000 bull today they just went to a ranch. Oh, wow. And I mean, and because a bull brings two 50 or 400 or whatever, that doesn't make him a great bull either. Sure. That's the thing. Sure. Um, how many of those have we seen that are just little bitty PUDs that don't, they don't get out and do nothing, or their feet suck or whatever it might, 50 other things that they don't do. Right. And then somebody's trying to sell you on it, telling you, this is the gr next greatest thing. I mean, it it, you gotta go see 'em. Yeah. You gotta go see 'em. I would see. And you need to see their mothers if possible, if they're not dead. So how do you go about, what's the first step for you in Cyrus selection? I call Joe Fisher dear. Thank you. 'cause I don't get enough phone calls. I honestly depend, you know, I look around and I talk to people that I trust, and when I say I talk to people I trust, it gets, it gets the ball rolling, gets my mind moving. Um, God, I mean, me, you and I talked about 20 different bulls this, this fall, and I don't think we used any of them. I don't think I used any of them. Um, but that was due diligence. It's due diligence, running it. Hey, you gotta find somebody in your circle to run these things by, Hey, what did you think about this? Yeah, I saw him, I liked him a little bit. Hang on, let me call these guys. These guys will know they've got calves by 'em, blah, blah, blah. 50 other things, right? And you know, you went on a big trip and you said, Hey, I'm going to where this bull and this bull are, I'll let you know what I think. And you know, you got there and you're like, yeah, they're not gonna work. So, okay. Then I punt back. I keep going down the list like that. It might not be you, it might be Wilson, it might be Jason, it might be 20 other people that I call that made a trip somewhere, saw 'em, saw daughters. Hey, the bull was just okay, but man, his daughters were freaking smoking. Yep. Um, or sons or whatever it might be. Or, you know, you, you pick up the phone and you call some of these guys that you can trust, like, uh, Brent Thiel that I truly, or Bud Copel, that I think will tell you the truth. And maybe I shouldn't be naming their names. Amy can beep 'em out. But you know, I've had, uh, conversations with both of them and they've told me the good, the bad, and the ugly about the bulls, and then I made my own decision. Um, I think you gotta do more of that. And, and that's another problem. How do you know who, which people to trust? I think you have to build relationships with folks. Yeah, I would agree. And you gotta, you gotta go look at cattle with people too. I mean, I feel so much better. So much better giving you any sort of advice this year, Vince, than I have in the past because you trusted me through this legion thing. And you used them and you said, these cattle did this and this and this. Right. And I'm very pleased. And so now I can say, okay, if he liked this, which I thought he would, right now we see 'em similar. Right. You know, uh, I think that's what we have to do. And I wanna back up to your comment about the studs. How many bulls did I tell you about in the studs that I also really, really liked? There were some But you'd used a paternal brother to him. Yeah. Or you would already bend down that road with something else, right. Or whatever. And so, so a lot of these kind of eliminate themselves on if you can use them or if you can't, based upon what you've had. And the two bulls I think about in very, very spec specificity. Specific. Right. Okay. Specific. It doesn't fit, but that's fine. Um, the bulls that I think about specifically. That I went to see, those were some pictures that were floated out on social media that grabbed my attention. I went, whoa. Right, right. Whoa. And so I just bought the plane ticket and went Okay. Were they a cell phone picture that somebody did a good job taking or were they professional pictures? Those were both professional pictures. Yeah. Yep. And you got, you gotta go look at professional pictures you can't trust most. Absolutely. Absolutely. And even some of these videos, a guy, a gal's gotta be very, very careful with some of these videos. But the real little gems were being on tour at some of these ranches where the bullseye saw the cool photos were, and I was like, well, what the heck is that? And they told me, well, he's a this. And I went, well, I kind of like those. Right. And I'll never forget it in my tour at, at SAV. That particular year, um, that I went, I went to look at two very specific sis the very first spring I went. And, um, and it was based off of advertisement and buzz out here that people were talking about these really, really popular bulls. And I came home and used resource and international, they were not on anybody's radar, right? Anywhere out here. And those would've been two of the larger impacting bulls that we'd used at that time, right? And so there's a lot of fruit. And then when you step foot on those guys' places too, or those gals, you know, they now have a better idea what you are looking for, right? So if they're smart, they'll say, oh, you like these? Well, let me bring you over here and show you these. And you go, well, I didn't know anything about that. Right? And then you might, they might be showing you bull A and you see bull B across the pasture, and you're like, well, what about that? Right. You know, definitely. Well, we didn't know if he would fit. Well, let's go look at him. You know? And I would say most of the time when I find ones that I really, really, really love, we've already used a brother to him or a son, right. A, a, a brother usually. Or a son of a daughter or something. I mean, but I would definitely say that going out and seeing cattle is always your best friend. And it's why we're in this business anyways. Um, I to, to bring that first step a little bit more full circle. I would just say, when people ask me, well, how do you find these bulls? The first step is exactly what you said, Vince. I mean, it could come at me from a whole bunch of different. Directions. It could be a Facebook ad, it could be a print advertisement ad. It could be that, um, goodness, uh, anymore, it's social media grabs my attention a lot, but it's my friends also saying, man, we found this or that. And then I look into it and then I look a little deeper and I look a little deeper and then usually find something else. Or what about if you send a picture or I send you a picture or vice versa, that's just a cool cow. And you're like, what is this thing? And it's something that maybe you never thought of or maybe you looked at, but you weren't totally sure. And then that sparks a conversation. Oh, really? I thought about that bull. What did you think about 'em? Did the, did the cows do what they were supposed to do? Were the bulls easy to sell? Did the bulls make good bulls? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know that that happens a lot too. Well, and when we resurrect these bulls from the past, how many times have you said, I'm not saying he, he, you say I I'm not saying that he was not the right bull, he just wasn't the right bull for us at that time. Yeah. And so you go back and you look and you go, wow, now I can use this bull. That was a blast from the past. Right. 'cause now I'm ready for him. Right. And I've even seen that on bulls that I own. Um, how do you handle bulls? You own, would you say that bulls you own were 25% of what you used or 50 or this year? Um, yeah, this year, God, probably, probably 70, 70% maybe between blue blood Legion and high country and pandemic probably 70 and the 30%. Many. Maybe. Maybe 60, 40, somewhere in there. 67. Okay. Let's say, let's say it was 60 40. Yeah. Of that 40 what percent were proven bulls? Hmm. Um, probably, maybe 15% used three outside bulls. One was somewhat proven. Two were kind of new. I would say we're about the same. Two, were kind of new. And even when you say kind of new, there's calves out there? Well, one. No. One? Yes. Okay. You used one completely unproven bull. I use one completely new unprovable. There's gonna be calves selling in a sale. Yeah. But I liked the bull. I talked to the guy that owned it. I trust him. He really liked him, and I thought I'd take a chance on him. He's a little something a little different. How many units did you use on that bull? 2015. Okay. So I, I had the exact same scenario, but I did flush a couple cows to him. So that's gonna make a lot more. So this, this is like a clone of our operation. So when I was, uh, when I was on my tour, went to one ranch and fell in love with a bull, I mean, fell in love with him. And I actually said to the owner, I said, boy, I wish he was just a touch bigger and a touch longer. And he said, if you think you wanted this bull, but a touch bigger and a touch longer, you need to use his brother that sold last year. And so, um, I trusted that and I bred a, I bought 20 units of semen, flushed two cows, and the balance of the semen went into cows. So I think that that was, that's what I did. That was my one untrue side. I think I have two left. I have two left outta 20. Are any of those in the back of a Colorado? No, no. Did, let's, let's get off topic for just one second. Okay. What, what was it that didn't that got the hangout in the back of the Colorado? Between the half and the quarter? I'm telling you, the quarter's gone. It was green. That's because even the Colorado knew they sucked. Even the Colorado knew they sucked it, it got 'em outta there. Or, or even a wind machine, car wash could not kill a half cc. Small. Exactly. How about that? I was shocked when I opened that up. 'cause it, what's funny is I wasn't, I wasn't even trying to be terribly funny. I was just kinda like, oh yeah, we'll do the, around the Colorado get thrown out for people. And I pulled out my phone, I went, oh my gosh, that's like the fourth take of that video because there's a freaking straw back there. And look, it's a half cc straw. It's because quarters sucks and they always will. Well, and it's been there two weeks and it still might get a cow pregnant and I'm not sure that quarter 60 at any luck. Oh God. Anyway, back to, um, the bulls. It, it really, you gotta trust people in your circle. Yep. You know, we've said that for years. Small circle, you can't, you can't have 50 people in your circle. You're gonna get so confused. It's ridiculous. Mm-hmm. Um, so you gotta trust the people in your circle and you gotta do your due diligence. And I'm not saying that I always do my due diligence like I think I should. Um, but I, sometimes I necessarily don't. But if those 15 units that I used, I get 60% conception. So I get 10 calves. What is that gonna be? Detrimental. You know, the funny part, if it didn't work out. I would guess that you probably used them on a smattering of cows too, right? You didn't use them consistently? No, I did use them on some of my better cows. Oh, did you? Okay. Or, or what? I think 'cause some of 'em were heifers. You know how that goes. Sure. You don't know. You think they're your better heifers. Yeah. And I use them on some d so I used mine. I used mine on some good cows. Really good cows. Yeah. But I did use them on a couple different kinds of cows. Um, just 'cause I wanted to see how he worked and if I wanna use him again next year is kind of my thought. But if he works on numerous different kinds of cows and it's a little easier to use them. Right, right, right. And you, you used one young sire of your own, right? No. I'm gonna turn two out. Two young sis out on, well, one one What about 42? 44? Oh no. I used, um. The 7,100 and Blaze on, I used the 7,100 and Blaze on instead of 42. 44. Oh, you did? On commercials. I just wanna see what those calves look like. Yeah, they should be cool. They should be cool. I, I was gonna say on that line until I just knocked my headphones off, so it's gonna sound like I stepped on you probably some of our young sis that sold in the sale. Yeah. If they're from my own program, I don't use 'em like I use a young sire. And I guess the reason is is because I know what the mother is, I know what the grandmother is, I know what the great-grandmother is and I know how they're probably gonna line up. Now. I don't hit 'em as hard, um, on a particular cow as I would've proven sire. Right. Torque or an envy. I know how to use those. Those are easy for me in our program to use, but I also don't handle them with the same level of care as this experimental bull that I had with just 20 units from outside that I don't know how he's gonna like. Right. Well, I was torn to use those two bulls because both the bulls got hurt. I had to get, I had to ship both of them. I had a small amount of semen, and I'm thinking, is this gonna really turn somebody off because they're not gonna be able to see the bull. I didn't get a picture of them. Right. You know, it is just gonna be. Some weird thing. So I thought, you know, I'd put 'em on some commercials. If they're freaking smoke shows, I won't care. I'll use 'em on some good stuff then. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I had to bring my commercials or something anyway, so. Absolutely. Well, and I'll tell you another one that we didn't touch on. I mean, I'll, if I feel like I need something on a sort on an epd mm-hmm. I'll look for it. I will. Yeah. So what do you do, do you do I do phenotype first, pedigree second, EPDs third. Mm. I would have a hard time using a bull that I didn't like looking at. So yes, I would say that's accurate. And, and honestly, the, the phenotype and the, and the pedigree almost go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah. I used some bulls in the past four years though, Vince, that I didn't like some spots in their pedigree that I turned my nose at just a little. But I said, okay, I have this set of cattle that I really need to watch scrotal, EPD on. Mm-hmm. Because actually we've seen a lot of 30 twos and 30 threes, and I feel more comfortable at 30 fours, fives, and sixes. And so how are we gonna move the needle on that? Well, let's look for a highly proven si line that has some scrotal. EPD um, had another set of cattle that needed some milk, not milk, EPD, but they needed some genuine milk. And this we, that's where we brought in those sons of 44 0 4. Um, we used two, three different sons of 44 0 4. Two different sons, I think of 44 0 4. Uh, consequently both ended up being out of foundation daughters and we liked those foundation daughters. So that's how we kind of, you know, and, and then this year following it up, we didn't feel like we need to use a 44 0 4 again, 'cause we were gonna use those sons, but we did find a different sire line back on top of a different foundation daughter, um, to bring into our herd. And I felt good about that too. Um, so yeah, I would say the phenotype has to be something that lines up with, with, I can't see any major red flags. Right. You know, and that was another one that I told some friends, you know, 'cause they said, boy, you'll, you'll see that bull in person and not like its feet. And then you'll use something that you haven't seen in person. Yeah. And how do you rectify that? And I said, well, I hate to say this, but you can't unsee what you saw. Right. And so does that mean I turn a blind eye source towards some bulls? No. Um, I have some cell phone photos of those said bulls that I did not see in person. And, and I suppose those folks could be lying to me just the same as they could lie to you and say we didn't trim their feet. And you're looking at 'em there too. But if I, if I look at one and I see a foot, I don't like, that's a pretty hard conversation to have in three or four years When one of your customers says, this bull has a bad foot, and you're like, oh yeah, by the way, uh, his dad was that way when I saw him before I used him. And those guys, they choke you. They choke you, so you brought up cell phone, uh, pictures and videos. So there was a bull that sold recently for a pile of money, and he took a great picture, he took a great video, but somebody was at the sale and took a cell phone video and it was absolutely terrible. So, which do you trust? You know, you know as well as I do cell phone videos, they don't hide anything, but they also don't always show the animal in the best light. How many pictures have you seen of a cell phone? Just a picture where somebody will take it three quarter head on and it'll make 'em look like they have a big old huge donkey head, a weird front end and no muscle. But then if you flip around with your cell phone, you can make 'em look huge belied and big old butt and cool neck, the same animal. So I think you're definitely onto something there. I sent you a picture the other day, uh, you and Corbin, a picture the other day of this smoking heifer standing by a hay ring. I took the picture, I looked at the phone to see if I got the picture. I looked back up and she had moved and she looked terrible. Absolutely. But that's the thing is you can get a bad. Picture video of a good animal. So that's what I was getting at with this bull that sold. He took a good picture, okay, that could be doctored. He took a good video. The odds of it being doctored are slimmer. I don't know that you can doctor him, but he was also in better light. He was also in a better background. He was also in a better, you know, a field of grass or whatever it was. And the picture, the, the cell phone video was at terrible angles in a, in a small pen. He was stopping wrong. Um, I do think some of the flaws are actual flaws because once I saw him in the cell phone, video, went back to the other video and watched, and you can see it a little bit, it just wasn't as bad, right. Um. So that, that's what I'm saying, like you could even pass up on a really good animal that goes both ways. It does. You know, you could pass up on a really good animal because somebody took a crappy little cell phone video for you. Or you could be getting ready to buy an animal for a lot of money and somebody sent you a a cell phone video and that could be the honest animal, and they could have saved you a ton of money because you changed your mind. Absolutely, absolutely. More information is good. Yeah, it's always good. It's always good, but you know, you can't. I don't know. One of my good friends used to say, uh, everybody still would say it, I suppose. He said, don't treat breeding cattle as religion. That's when you can get in trouble. You know, they're just data points. They're all data points. We don't need to expect perfection anywhere. But you look for, you know, some people it's structure, some people it's muscle. Some people it's a cool for them. Yeah. Some people it's, it's feet. When you, you hope that those pictures glean some sort of information that expose your big red flags, the ones that are red flags in your operation. Right. And for me it's mostly, honestly, it's the mother more than anything, Vince. Right. And I need to know the mother and the story behind the mother and all that before IC Now we want to have a complete outcross line, um, that brings something comp completely unique. I still want to know something about that. Right, right. Um, because. You're bringing her influence in on 100% of the calves. Okay. There was a bull not too long ago that has, God, I think he was in the top selling, top semen sales thing, top registrations. Um, his mother died at a young age. Mm-hmm. Is that a big red flag? If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's probably why I didn't use any of that influence. Um, because there are some cattle that I felt like should have lived a lot longer than they have that are floating around in this breed. Um, well, I'm just saying for the fact that it, it was some stupid thing. It wasn't, it was like an accident. Mm-hmm. Not, not they just went out there. I mean, you can't control an accident. No. And I'd like to think that I can handle the truth. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I'm saying, does that make you, I mean, they didn't even have a picture of her. It would depend on who it is for me. Right. It would depend on who it is and all the things surrounding it. And you know, did she, was it a freak deal? Right? 'cause it was a line of cattle that would fit the same mold that you're saying mm-hmm. That you start digging and you're like, well, this daughter disappeared and at a young age Yeah. And this son disappeared at a young age. And you're like, man, is there something to that line of cattle, um, where they aren't lasting? Right. My mind automatically goes to heart issues. Honestly, that's what goes to, and and that's why I've been really focusing on heart health type stuff. Mm-hmm. Which is so hard to figure out because the smart people will tell you, you know, it's not just a pap thing, but pap is an indicator. So, um, yeah, but don't you think that could, it's just like us. I'm obese. I I have a greater risk of heart issues than you do just because I'm obese. Yeah, maybe because of my diet, you know, these cows, you're shoveling 'em corn or whatever all day long. DDGs, I mean, that can't be good for their heart. Probably not. Versus your cattle are out on big open range. They're getting way more exercise than mine and they're eating grass. Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. Hey, I wanna bring it back to the topic though. Okay. You just thought of another one. What? Yeah. Are there any bulls that you didn't own that you were so excited to use? This year? This year? Yeah. Um, yeah, kinda, yeah. Yeah. I was pretty excited to use, um, a couple bulls, but one, um. When I went, I don't know how many people were there, but if you went to ZWT sale, you noticed, um, if you looked through 'em and you noticed the Riversides man, those things were sweet and they're very consistent. And he would be a full brother to downpour, but he's a heifer version. A heifer bull version. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Um, but man, they were just, they were big bodied. They were, they carried that depth all the way through their flank. Um, big, nice hip in them. I, I, I wasn't, I had that sea last year, but I didn't use them. Mm-hmm. Um, but man, when I saw those daughters, I was like, yeah, I gotta, I gotta use 'em now. Are they gonna work on my cows? I don't know, because I probably used 'em on different type cows. But if I can get something that looks like that, yeah, I'm gonna be pretty excited about it. But nothing, I, I, you know, nothing that just like, just, I was just so fired up. I don't know. So do you think that's the state of the Angus business? Well, I, I'm leading you away because I know what my answers are. My answers are that one bull that I used 20 units of semen on, I am fired up about that. I think that is fun and exciting and different. Mm-hmm. And, and I said, remember bulls that I didn't own. So there are a couple that I own that I'm super pumped about and I think are gonna be really fun. Um, I'll say this, that same bull, not the bull you used, but the same scenario, 20 units, blah, blah, blah. I'm excited about him too, but he, he, he's, but he's, he's a different bull for me. Yeah. You know, he's, he's, he's a different type bull for me, but at the same time, you look at him and he's, he's still fits the mold. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know, I know what bull you're talking about and you know what bull I'm talking about and they couldn't be any different like pedigree and stuff. But it's funny because it's almost like I would say the exact same thing. I would say the exact same thing. I, he's a little different from us, but he fits the mold. Yeah. And I'm super excited. I'm, but what I was getting at is the core group of outside sirens we used. I'm not just pumped about 'em, I'm not disappointed in 'em. I don't feel like I didn't find the right bull. Right. But I'm just not as excited as I used, you're not overly giddy about it. Yeah. And I wonder if that is maturing in this business or I wonder if it's the shines off a little. I think it, you think it's, I think, you know, there's been a lot going on this year with the association. Sure. I think that. That kinda gets you in a bit of a muck. It kinda gets you downtrodden. Um, it had me and it took me a minute to get outta that funk, to be honest. Um, but I'm moving forward. I've got a young bull, a couple of young bulls. Uh, I can't use one, I can't use the torque sun this, this fall because he's still, he's not even a year yet, but I'm gonna use him in the spring. I'm fired up about him. There's another bull here that I'm fired up about that I am gonna use this fall. Um, I, I'm excited about that, just to see it, you know, what they're at. Also, I had a young bull that I kept last year, um, and I should see some of his first calves here pretty quick in, in probably February. So, you know, there's some things to look forward to. Um, but I'm like, you, like there's not a lot, you know, I, I look at these bulls that what you were talking about, the bulls that you own, that you used, and I'm not saying there's not better bulls out there, but you know, I waded through a lot of bulls, as did you, and you just kept coming back to the ones that you knew, the ones that you raised or the ones that you own because you know what they're gonna do. And so that's, that's simple, huh? I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. He had bought a flush on a cow and, um, somebody had told him he should use this bull bull A and I said, why? Why? What are you gonna market? Are you gonna, you're gonna be marketing a cow that you don't own and a bull that you don't own when you own a bull that is probably better than that bull. Mm-hmm. Why wouldn't you use your own bull? And he said, yeah, you got a good point. I don't know that, that's good information. I hope it was good. I hope it was good advice. But the bully bought's a damn good bull. So why would you go use somebody else's bull if you already got a good bull? Have you ever had one of your own bulls? Just if you think this questions isn't fair, Amy can edit it out, I guess. But just destroy feat or destroy utters. And the reason I say those two traits is because I feel like. Those are the two most important traits for me. Yeah. And they're the things that have united you and I the most, like back from before we even did any sort of podcasting together where we became friends is, man, these are some things we're really focused on in our program. And they were very, very similar. I, I actually will back up and I won't make you answer that question. I'll just say, I have never used a bull that we've owned or walked that has just destroyed feeder utters. Right. I've used one, one of the very first ones questionable. Ever, ever bought. Yep. And the gorgeous, the daughters were gorgeous. The feet could be hit and miss. Um, and that would've been in like 2000, that would've been 2005, 2006. But since then, Vince, if we just cut their ear tags out and they made cows, any bull we've either owned, so there've been purchased bulls in there. Mm-hmm. Or raised ourselves. We've never had a disaster for those two traits. But then we spend all this time with a seven and seven protocol and the freaking GRH and the late nights and all that to use something we thought would move us forward to find out that he set us light years back on. Exactly most important. Okay, here's a flip. Flip to that question. How many times have you used, you went out and you sought out this bull that was gonna be your, the next great AI sire that's gonna sire sis for you and blah, blah, blah, blah. And the bulls that you turned out had better calves than that bull. Maybe not on the sons, but on the daughters. Our turnout outsiders always whip 'em up. Why is that? Do you think it has something to do with the amount of semen that is actually like, it's just, it, it's making, I know this sounds really stupid, but it's making, there's more DNA in there and it's making a better thing. Is that dumb? It's not dumb, but I don't think it's correct. Okay. I I think it's more these turnout sis you scrutinize so much and I scrutinize so much. We would never, ever, ever turn one out that isn't out of a nice cow. At least a nice cow that's still at our operation. So I've got a bull that I kicked out already with my resets. He's out of one of my favorite cows I own. He is just, he's okay. He's actually built a lot like the old time. Bulls. He's got the reverse wedge. He's cut up in his flank, deep chested muscled up his best Two things. The reason he is here is he's got great feet and he's got a big old set of nuts. Mm-hmm. And I don't know what his daughters will look like. I'll, I actually have several, but you know, they're, they'll be bred in the spring. But see, that's where I think it would be really interesting for us to get on a true bosma evaluator who could explain actual observation things well and an educate a listener base. And I think it's so hard to do, but in all the things that I've studied Vince, and I'm, I'm a baby baby. I wouldn't even say that I'm a baby bonds ma person. I mean, I know so little about it, but I think that's the only. Way to observe cattle, to really find out if there's a correlation to the daughters. Those guys seem, did you just freeze up? No, you just not move. I'm listening. Okay. No, it just looked like you didn't move and I was like, man, I don't know if he just had a stroke. I was listening to what you were saying, but Vince, I do think that the herds I've seen who use bondsman techniques, they can pick 'em, they can pick bull that make good daughters, and I'm not, I'm not saying this is, this is or isn't one. I'm saying if you came and you toured my bullpens, I, I think most folks would say that's just, that's just a bull. Like he's hard doing kinda. And, uh, I like these over here way better. I'd look at how long his tail is. And I would look at what his epididymus looked like. His what? His epididymus. Look it up. Look it up. I'm pretty sure you already commented on this bull's tail. So was it long? I think it was, yeah. Yeah. It's long. It probably was. He probably was. He probably had curly hair on his neck. He does those. So he has those indicators. Yes. But when you, you, you're looking at him, he's not the one that you're gonna say, that's a good son of a buck. I wanna see calves outta him. Now. The calves might be better than those others. Who knows? I'm just saying the two biggest things for me with him, feet and nuts. Yep. And I, I have a buddy who's really, really good about it, who raises a lot of goats and sheep. Mm-hmm. And all he wants to look at are the nuts, really. Absolutely. Absolutely. I would say that, um, uh. I don't wanna mischaracterize his program, but there's a very, very well respected gentleman in Central Montana, which he is an absolute fanatic of testicle shape, testicle development, um, scrotal, you know, like how, how much hair is on the scrotum, if it's fuzzy, if it's not, you know, those are all things that are endocrine indicators. And if you get the endocrine piece right, like the balance between testosterone and estrogen and, and that development, I, I think that that is a piece that we're missing and that is a piece where social media has really, really screwed us up because we're demanding these soft made, super thick, cool fronted things. Yes. And I don't know that a 14 month old bull needs to be super just razor fronted, right? He better have a little bit of CREs. He better not be cowhead, you know, he might have some forearm and shoulder and that's okay. And he may not have that big, big bunchy muscle on the top of his hip, and he might cut up a little in his flank because he's got testosterone that's making him do that and not a TMR wagon, you know? So, I don't know. I, I think, um, there are some people, Vince, that are, are the true OGs at evaluating that stuff. I'm not one, but I try to learn from 'em. So what about this, you brought up testicles a minute ago. My vet has argued, you know, okay, you get a bull that's maybe 33, 34. But his argument is they're not considering how long they are, they're just considering how big a round they are. Some bulls have a short fat nut and some have a longer, sorry testicle. Some have a longer, longer, Amy, I'm, I'm, some have a longer one that may not be quite as big around, and I had a vet argue that they should take that into consideration. Does that vet have experience in the dairy industry? Seriously? I don't know. No, I don't think so. Maybe. I don't know, because I've heard that out of the dairy end. He's just an old vet. He was just an older, old school type guy. You know, I've, I've, uh, heard that from dairy people before that we get too focused on scrotal circumference and not shape. If you want to know a deal killer for me, if I'm looking for a bull, if he's just got one nut. Nope. Oh, not as much as two that are completely different. Shaped Twist. Oh. Or twisted. You get that one that looks like a ball versus the one that has the kind of half moon, you know? Correct shape. Yeah. Yeah. Little curve to, that's a real, real red flag for me. I also don't like ones that the scrotum really cups up and separates the testicles like separate. I don't, I don't think that that's correct either. Okay. Don't I know what you're gonna say. I know you're so immature. I'm not. This is ridiculous. You're doing hand motions and everything, so what the hell am I supposed to do? I have a good book. I, I don't wanna send you 'cause a bull customer of mine sent me is called Herd Bull Fertility, and it talks about a lot of those things. It's super, super interesting. Yeah. It talks about Hereford bulls and the rings on their horns and how that hair is at the base of the horns. And you could look at periods of infertility in that animal and stuff like that. So yeah. What you got? I'm, I'm, this is a serious question about the rings. Do I check the Angus for once? No. No. Do you mean rings on the outside or like. Uh, like a tree when they cut it. I know that sounds stupid, but you know, they have to bob some of their horns off sometimes. 'cause it turns in their head. No, this talked about looking like where the horn actually attaches to the head and how there's rings there. Kind of, kind of, but not the same as a tree. You know, it's like a foot of a cow. Yeah. How many feet have you seen that are just shiny? Shiny and they look hard And then you see another set that kind of look flaky and gray and they got like different I got you. I think that those are generally periods of inconsistent environmental conditions. I've always heard that it was feed conditions. Yeah, they, they have those, you can see lines on their feet. Yeah. On a And that, I was always told that that was a feed thing. Yeah, absolutely. I, there's an article that came across my social media about blue tongue and deer and how you could tell it by looking at their hooves because their hooves will blow out wherever they had a fever or whatever. Really? So they were looking at these deer. Yeah. And they said these ones had severe blue tongue and then got over it or whatever. But, um, okay. We gotta get back to bull selection here. Um, is it ever, is it ever good enough to use a bull? Just 'cause a friend said, you know what, these cattle are good. Depends on the friend. I agree. Yeah. That's gonna be boring. Depends on the friend. Well, I mean, I got friends that I love and trust and would call 'em in a heartbeat if I needed help. Maybe wouldn't trust them if they said, you gotta use this bull. It's ownership stake thing. Huh? I, I don't know that they even owned the bull. Yeah, sure. You know, oh, I went and saw the bull and I trust what they saw. I went and saw the bull. I think I'm going all in. Maybe I didn't feel the same way with, maybe it was a pedigree thing. Maybe it was a little something that I saw. Maybe it was, it had nothing to do with, I think they're lying to me because that's not what it is. But, um, it, I think it also has to do with, you know, you know a guy for a while and he sees things the same and you know, those things go a long way too. So where do you think people go the most wrong in bull selection? That's more like a 30,000 foot view, I think. One, they just doing it on paper alone. Okay. I think another one, they're listening to a sale manager. I think another one they've listened to a friend that probably shouldn't be giving advice. Mm-hmm. Uh, that heard it from another guy that heard it from another guy that heard it from another guy that this bull's fantastic. Um, I think a lot of that happens. I remember that bull that we were talking about this spring that everybody was talking about, and I don't know if, I think it was you, and we heard about this bull like three times, and I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Well, where did this person hear it about? And we traced it back. It all traced back to one guy had saw the bull and Mikey, and you're like, but he had told, but he told 25 people. Yeah. So you thought you had 25 different experiences. Yeah. And all these 20 fiber lock Boy out here. This is the bull. This is bull. This is the bull. You know what I think it is? I think that one of the biggest problems people have with Cyrus selection is they don't thoroughly think through the negatives that could come along with it. They always, it's human nature to see the upside. Yeah. And be so excited that we can move. You know what I could do? I could take this cow that's negative marbling, use a 2.2 on her, she's a negative 0.2, I'm gonna get a one on marbling and I don't have any ones. Right. Fire and nice. Well that's kick ass. But guess what? What if the cattle are no good? Right. And you never even get to the point of seeing that marbling cage. Right. And it's. Go ahead. No, no, it's okay. I was just, I was just thinking that if we thought through the role of what AI should do, right? AI should bring you something, something novel to your program that you can't get by turning out a cleanup sire. Well, and also why go pay 50,000, 200,000 for this sire when you can buy a straw semen? Well, that's like the opposite side of exactly what we're saying, but I would agree with you. Right. But, and that's, yeah, it's just the tools, right? It's the tools we have. Well, I had a call from a young man who's got maybe 10, 15 cows, I don't know, and telling me about a herd that he said, you know, he was concerned about not being able to afford. And I know he's a listener and, um, I won't say his name because he'll be embarrassed. But it was a good point, and it's timely for this podcast, some of these high, high end sales. And, and there's a lot of 'em now. Um, one of which I'm not. You better have either a lot of cattle to breed that bull to, or you better have a good marketing plan if you're gonna dive into him. I would agree. Because what happens is when you own him, now you own him. When you could have just bought a cane of semen at 40, even 50 bucks a straw, you're all in 500 bucks. And you might have seven or eight calves that you might not like and you can castrate 'em and you can move on. But if you go pay 40, 50,000 for that sire and you don't like that first crop of calves, are you gonna have the metal to do the right thing and get rid of him? Well, there's the thing. You can go to these places and I know what you're talking about. I know where you're talking about shopping. If you go there and you spend 15,000. You're buying the bottom of the, the very bottom of the list. Yeah. That would not be a lot of places. Yeah. You're not spending 15,000 on the top bull. You're spending 15,000 on the very bottom bull. Right. And, and for some of our listeners, you had to sell three bulls to get that 15 to buy. Right. You, you sold three of yours for their worst. And I'm not, I'm not dogging out the guy that's selling 'em, he can't control It's a public auction. Absolutely. But just what you said would you don't spend the 15 k go somewhere and maybe spend eight or 10 on a good bull or 15 on a really, really good bull out of a program and, and buy five, spend 500 bucks and buy the top bull at that sale that you were gonna spend. 15 K on the bottom bowl. And I got another one for you. I don't know if it fits in SI selection. These bulls sell 'em for two, three, 400,000 all the time. 25, 30, $40. A straw is cheap. Mm-hmm. That is cheap Genetic improvement. So don't buy the worst bull is 15,000 in that sale. That doesn't fit you right. Find the one you love and go buy a can of semen on. Right. And he may not even the one you love may not even be the most high seller because we, we started out with the, the top seller mon monetarily may not mean he's the best bull. That just means two people that had a lot of money really liked him. Um, he could be the middle of the road bull in that sale, but you loved him. Have you noticed that there, it's hard to find secrets in this business now. Like, there are tons of people that have a similar way of evaluating cattle, a similar set of criteria, all looking for similar things, and there is a lot of competition for quality bulls now. Yeah. I thought you meant, are you laughing at me? I thought you laughing at my hair again? I, no, I was thinking like when you said it's hard to keep secrets, the first thing that came to my mind was Kat Williams when he went on that show on Club Shehe and he just aired all the dirty laundry. When he say 2025 is gonna be the year of a reckoning or something. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. You're right. Um, it's like when I find one, when I find one in one of these bigger sales, and I don't, I don't fancy myself to be some bull guru. I just know what I like. Well, that's what you got. That's what this whole thing just came first. Full circle back, breed what you like, breed what you know your customers like. But I will tell you it's pretty crowded in that space. There's either, I've either surrounded myself by a lot of people who like what I like, or there's a lot of people looking for very similar things right now. You know, I was listening to Joe Rogan today while I was on the bulldozer and he had, uh, jelly roll on, you know, jelly Roll lost like 400 pounds. Did he have him on like recent? 'cause he, he, yeah, today. He was the last one today. Oh, did he talk about like canceling his concerts in Australia and all that? Like he had a mental breakdown? I didn't, I didn't get that far into it 'cause I got talking about hunting. Oh, I'm gonna listen tomorrow. Then we got a long trip tomorrow and it's not that I have a problem with hunting, but it just kept going on and on and on and on and on. Um, but what he was saying was, sur he surrounds himself now with people that eat right and people that. Uh, want to be healthy. Yeah. And it's easier, it's easier for him. So he said, you know, when I was messing around on my wife, I was hanging out with guys that were messing around on his wi on their wives. When I was doing drugs, I was hanging out with guys that doing drugs when I was, you know, doing this and doing that. So it goes back to what you were just saying about it seems crowded, but you probably have a lot of people in your life that think very similar to you. So is that a good thing or a bad thing that it seems crowded? Well, I'll tell you where it's crowded is the people I surround myself, if I had to sum up one core value they have is they are relentless about making sure that their customer is satisfied. Well, I mean, really think that's not a bad thing, is it? You think about you, you think about Corbin, I think about someone like Eve's. Um, you know, and the list could go on and on, but all of these people are so self-conscious about harming their customer. They're absolutely relentless about, I wanna make sure that I, I produce something they like, and I wanna make something that make sure it's something that they value. And I wanna make sure it's something that, you know, five years from now didn't hurt 'em. Right. Well, and that, and that's hard, that, that's hard to stay that way when something goes sideways. Yeah. You know, you're, you don't want to choke that down. You don't wanna listen to that guy. Say, you know what, this bull crapped out on me or this. Well, and Vince Oh, are we in trouble? What? Yeah, we're recording. Hey bud. Take book. This is good radio, but it, it's hard baby. Huh? Go on. Amy said we've been recording long enough. She doesn't wanna edit this much. No, but it, it, it is hard when you get that bad feedback. You don't want to keep calling more people and checking on 'em. You know? But you gotta do it. If you ask the animal breeding gurus of today, yeah. They would say that you have to use outliers to achieve genetic improvement. You have to use outliers. So that means you're gonna have some bad, that's gonna come with the good why a lot of it. And you need to cull through it. That's what I'm saying. I think we need to keep the pendulum from swinging too far. The outliers get it swinging way out. Yeah. Both directions. If you want big change, you've gotta use a big pendulum swing. Uh. But that's, we don't change the thing. Why do we, why do we need big change? Make incremental changes. I would agree with that. I think that's a good way to wrap up. A lot of this is like figure out where your herd is and what it is that you're really trying to change. That's what cyber selection should be about. Is there something you want to try to change or is there something you want to intensify? And if, and I think there's been so much et used Vince so much IVF that a lot of people have dozens and dozens or or 50 or a hunt or daughters of the same cow or same cow lines and their cows are probably pretty consistent and they're pretty happy. So maybe we just need to bring in more genes like that rather than trying to change those cattle. Well that's what I was gonna say. Maybe if your whole herd needs a change, you might be better off to buy some eggs and put eggs in those cows. Yeah. Because if they all need a change in a different direction, how you fix that? Yeah, I think you've, you, the only way I know to fix it is you pick four smoking good bulls that do a lot of things right? And you breed all of them to this bull one year, and you take all that offspring and you bring 'em to the next bull the next year, take all those offspring, breed 'em to the next bull. And by the third, fourth year, they all look like peas in a pod. They should. Well, and and that model that I said I stole from an old dairy guy when I told you I had all these foundation daughters and all of our listeners don't just go flock to finding foundation daughters and sons of 'em. I mean, I like mine, they're babies, but I like 'em. But if, but if you, if it fits you, that's lovely, but Right. I'm not saying it's right, but what that dairyman told me is he goes, the bull was, uh, HARB High Plains. Do you remember that bull? I think, so it was High Plains and there was Che and there was some of those bulls in the, I think they were mid nineties, but that gentleman liked High Plains and what he did for his herd at that time. So he went and found all these sons of High Plains daughters and he just kept using 'em and using 'em and using 'em, and he was really pleased with how that went. Is HARB still in business? I don't know. I think it was, that was Jason Harrison, right? I don't know who it was. I think they sold, uh, most of their bulls at Midland we're, we're probably putting out bad information. I'll, I'll tell you what I had to say after we get off the recording. So anyway, I think there's a lot of different ways to skin this cat on this selection. Right? But the first one is, is you gotta be real with where you're at and you gotta be real with where you want to go. Well, that's true because you just said. If you think your herd needs a whole overhaul, right? Yeah. Say you say, you know what? I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna just use all these for sips. I'm gonna go out and buy a good donor that can move me forward and I'm gonna put eggs in all of them. What if you, that's a great idea, but if you don't change and you're still picking the wrong bull, you're gonna, those calves are gonna mirror what you already got, are they not? Yeah, absolutely. To an extent. Yep. And, and I think, I think that you do whatever you want. Um, a hundred percent do exactly whatever you want, but there is a big difference between having a breeding program and raising cattle. Yeah, I know a lot people that just raise cattle and there's a lot of people who, the cattle is the crop. It's a cash crop. And if, if dollar maternal works today, that's fine. And if it's dollar C tomorrow, that's fine. If it's dollar F and they just keep retooling, retooling, retooling. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but just don't tell me you have a program. Um, because I wanna buy from people that have longstanding programs that have tried to establish a direction with some level of repeatability. Something we didn't warn people about was the, the bull of the month, the flavor of the month. You gotta be careful with those bulls. Absolutely. Yeah. No, and, and you better know what it is that, you know, maybe those people that are super excited about the flavor this month have used them on a set of cows that you don't have. Right. And so it really, really worked for them. But you don't have those opportunities 'cause you don't have those cows. Right. I mean, the other one is, um, honestly, conception rate. I mean, there's a lot of bulls that. Can bring you a whole pile of potential, but you find out why didn't they fertilize as many of the eggs, or they aren't as good an IVF, or, uh, boy, I got 35% on that sire and I got 85 on this other sire. Right? Um, how many unicorns you wanna breed? So, I don't know. I feel like we probably beat around that bush enough and hopefully we found something on sire selection. Um, but it's always best, always best to see 'em yourself, right? Nobody will see 'em like you do. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Um, so this episode will come out, be the last episode before Christmas. Okay. So, uh, Christmas plans real quick, dude. Going, your dad's, you're going to your mom. I mean, your, uh, Abby's. Family, what are you doing? So get this, I got a group text from my dad's. Yeah. And this morning on the group text, they sell a little bit of freezer beef, you know? Yeah. Cousin called and he wanted four prime ribs. Dang. My sister's like, we got four prime ribs. They sold 'em like, Hey, are we having like foster farm Turkey? Chris is like, am I gonna have to bring my own prime rib? Hey, what's the deal? Hey, hey Google. Shady brook farms. And the first thing that pops up is a Turkey farm in Pennsylvania. So you could get a Turkey, you could get a shady brook Turkey. I do not want any form of bird. I ate the only bird I eat couple days or a couple weeks ago, Thanksgiving. Um, I'm so excited, man. I, I talk about my kids so much on this podcast and um, that's probably what's kept the three of us together more than anything is our love for our families. But, uh, we get to go pick up Ben this next week. I was just fixing to say, isn't he coming home? Man, I'm so excited to have him home. I'm just so excited. I, it would be like if Nate left you for a while and you know, you absolutely love it. It'd be the same with Sophia too. Just different. Right? Right. Um, when you have those kids and they each have their role and then they've been missing for a while, it's kind of, it's a hole and we don't catch up. 'cause nobody fix. Nobody fills that hole. Right. So I miss our child. I miss my friend. Um, but we miss the work he does for us too. Right. In a big way. So he's coming back. Um, he'll be here. I won't say it because these terrorists are on the other side of the door, but, um, their Christmas gift is pretty exciting. Like, I was so exciting. I was gonna ask, what about the, are you in a different room? Because the stack of Milwaukee stuff's gone. Did you move it? Oh no, this is, I twisted. Oh no, she did move it. Yeah. I don't know where she put it. It, but I've got a snap on toolbox. Do you see how far up I am? Yeah, it is, because there's a big old snap on toolbox. Did he win that too? Or did he just buy that? No, he bought that. He bought that. But no, there's crap everywhere in this room. 'cause he was home last week and just napalmed everything. There's bills everywhere. There's checks everywhere. It's, it's a mess. But, um, can you write me a check? He probably could. I, I couldn't. Things are tough vr uh, but anyways, um, I'm excited for the holidays. Absolutely. We're gonna take some time off. Um, we're gonna do some fun things. We're gonna spend time with family and we're gonna spend time in our church. Sweet. How about you guys? We have a big project underway. Yep. Gonna put eggs in Saturday. Hopefully the big project will be done or almost done. And we got a freeze brand, one more group of heifers and we gotta finish cleaning up the combine. And we should be able to do that if we have the weather for it relatively quickly. And then we get to coast for a while and through the holidays, hopefully maybe be a little more lax on how much stuff's going on. Do you have any unique traditions? Um, nah, not really. The, the, I don't know that it's a tradition, but we always host Amy's family here, her mom and her nieces and nephews and all that. That's fun. It's really fun. And this, did your mom ever say. I hope you understand what a incredibly waste of resources this was. No, no, no. But um, we have a big time. Everybody's cutting up it's light. Um, anytime we ever went to mom and dad's, it was, it was just different, you know, dad used to get mad at everybody 'cause we all got loud and when we're all enjoying each other, but, and this will be the first Christmas without dad, so it's gonna be a little different, you know, and, um, but hopefully we'll have a big time and, and appreciate being around each other and, you know, have a good time. Have you ever gone Christmas, Caroline? No. I wanna think maybe, and I would have to ask Amy. When we were dating, I think maybe, I don't know why I think this, but I think when we were dating we might have, I went one time. Did you? In college. I, I, I was trying to figure it out because I was at a convention and one of my college roommates parents was at this convention last week and they, I said, are you guys doing anything for Christmas? They go, well, you know, we go caroling all the time. And I said, did I go caroling with you guys one year or did I go, caroling? Did your son bring that tradition down when we were at college? I know it sounds California, and it sounds lame, but I'm gonna tell you what, I've never seen so much joy you could put on people's faces, right? Than walking around going caroling. That's what I'm saying. And it's so fun. You like packing a minivan, all these people, and you know, everybody's having a drink here and there and having a big time, and then you stop in your Christmas caroling. It was so much fun. Well, I mean, who's gonna be mad about that? Really? Because either they're gonna be laughing or they're gonna think it's awesome or very, I mean, maybe somebody's having a terrible day and you brighten their day. Or maybe somebody's having a terrible day and they're just like, leave me f alone. Could you imagine though, if you, if you knocked on, if somebody knocked on your door and you opened up and Corbin was wearing a Santa Claus hat and Air Force ones singing Jingle Bells or Silent Knight Matching, matching Air Force one. Yes, yes, yes. It would be perfect. All man. Are we ready to wrap up? 'cause I'm gonna, yeah, we look to all the listeners. Merry Christmas. Have a safe Christmas. Merry Christmas and a Merry Christmas, and we think we're gonna try to record one before Christmas, so it'll be on the books for after Christmas when everybody's traveling. Yeah. I hope everyone has a great and safe Christmas and thank you for hanging with us for, has it been a few year, almost a year? Almost a year. Almost a year. I never would've, we have new people all the time, you know? Yeah. It's, it's like all these new people that are reaching out to us that have found us for the first time that don't even know we have our own deal yet and Right. It's always so fun and I'm just thankful for you guys and you know, they've become like family. There's a couple listeners that we've mentioned before on here, it's like anything comes up on social media. These guys are like, they are team around the shoe now and don't think that goes unnoticed. Thank you guys. Right. And Merry Christmas to you and your families. That's right. All right. Take it away, tumor. We will see you next time around the shoot.