Changing Trends: The Past and Present of Showing Cattle

The hosts discuss busy seasonal ranch work, shipping and weaning cattle, and using haying as a pasture-management tool while debating the high cost and labor of hay equipment, small-square vs round bales, irrigation issues, and rain-damaged hay. They share personal stories about cutting and tedding hay, mower conditioners, and vacation downtime. They then introduce their first non-board-guest, Kyle Gillooly of Wadley, Georgia, an Indiana native who manages CES Herefords and Angus, co-owns Predestined Cattle, and sells females through the Partners in Progress sale. Kyle and the hosts compare today’s show industry to earlier eras, noting shifts from open-show marketing and production focus toward junior “project” cattle, IVF-driven donor use, and more extreme, fitted “beauty contest” types. They emphasize balance, longevity traits, judging integrity, clear accurate reasons, and discuss pressures from social media, judge variability, and the value of judging programs and youth shows.

Transcript

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Oh my God. Here we go, boys Well, we got nothing left to talk about. The good banter's gone. Yeah. What you been doing? Go ahead, Joe Oh, like, uh, upcoming soon after we banter a little bit, we're gonna have a guest, our first guest, our first guest that's not running for the board of American Haying Association that I know of. Wait, is he running for the board maybe? He might. I think he should. Hmm. If, if he does it, he can have him on again- Let's wait till we get, get an interview and endorse him yeah, we'll wait till they interview before we endorse him. Uh, his name is Co- Kyle Gillully out of Wadley, Georgia. So anyway, Joe, what have you been doing? Everything. Everything. You hit these seasons in the cow deal where it's like, man, we're just coasting along and it seems like you got plenty of time, and then all of a sudden you have no time. And then it's like hurry up and wait all the time. That's the season we're in. We've been shipping cattle, weaning cattle. Um, my s- our bull's been weaned a while, but, um, customer cattle and shipping those sort of things. And yeah, we've had a pretty incredibly blessed year here, Vince. Um- Good got some hay knocked down on fields that we normally don't hay, and then it rained a half inch on top of it, so. So who's doing that? You got a guy that's gonna split it with you? 'Cause I know you don't have any hay equipment. You know what I'm gonna tell you? I'm gonna tell you, I cannot believe how much you guys spend on iron and depreciation of iron. I mean, for these little cow sandwich hay bales, this guy's got 200,000 in equipment sitting there. I just can't believe it. Oh, that's if he's got junk equipment he's got 200,000 in equipment. I don't see, I don't see how if you're a, just a cow-calf operator and you live in a place where you are just putting up hay, rolls of hay, I don't see how you go buy the equip- I, I don't see how you justify... If you're someone that doesn't have just ample amounts of money- I think- I don't see how you justify going and buying hay equipment, because I don't have any hay equipment and- I don't, I... For, for one thing, you've gotta have manpower to go- Yes bale the hay and cut the hay and rake it and bale it, and that takes hours on hours on hours. Um, and then you just talk about the $250,000 that it costs just to get started. I think there's a number there. You have to have X amount of cows to just- What's the number? To justify- What do you think the number is? I always kinda thought it was probably a couple hundred head, 250, 300, somewhere in there. Maybe. Maybe I'm wrong, but it also depends on your help. Like you said, if you don't have any help, you have that many cows, but if you don't have the help, it would make things very difficult, 'cause then you gotta move it when you get done with it. Well, I think, too, um, I've come across some pretty good relationships with guys that o- the only thing they use their place for is baling hay. Yeah. And they live on their place. They have all the hay equipment. They bale the hay. Basically, um, they're just doing it to do something, and I've come, come across those places, so I've kinda gotten lucky in that way, in that I can buy the hay from them. Um, the other option that I guess a lot of people have i- is a lot of people would have their own pasture baled, huh? Joe, is that what yours is? Is it your own li- these- Yeah, and what it is is these irrigated fields that we usually go on middle of May, but we've had so many late rains that our grass that goes dormant the first part of May, and then you put cattle middle of May, those cattle are still out on those- Just rangeland pastures right now, and we'll be there until the 1st of July. And so you got two things going on. You got a ton of biomass sitting there that's gonna end up causing eye problems, and it's all stage three grass and lignified. And then also you're moving the pasture dynamics away where the forage quality is just way lower for the rest of the year. That's the second thing, and actually there's three things. And then seeing where that water goes. There's... I mean, there's, there's grass above my head on a four-wheeler, and we need to cut that so that we can see if the water's running even because... Now our, our irrigated fields aren't like checked and bordered like valleys, and they aren't sprinklers. It's wild flood on hillsides, and so you kinda have to cut ditches in different spots and when... where water's getting really turbulent, you have to slow it down and move it to another spot, and it requires a, an incredible amount of tension and, and you have to have that grass a little bit shorter. And it's, it's a pain in the neck. It's strictly a management of pastures tool, uh, that we use and, and we do it rarely, um, 'cause the hay we pull off of it is not, it's not super high quality either. And Vince- Did y'all do round bales or square bales? No, I call them cow sandwiches. Just two wire, like 70 pounders, little bitty bales. Um- Okay. That's what Nate makes. And I think, I think there's potential if I improve my pastures to a point for a lot of these horse owners who are older and stuff, if I can get that cutting early enough to where the grass has some nutritional value, and the person who's elderly or not as strong or smaller people or whatever, they can grab these hay bales and feed their horse. And I... By the ton, when you figure it out, that's probably a pretty smart way to do it because they're still paying $14 for a bale, say. Right. Well, that bale only stayed a week. Well, you know Nate, you know, Nate sells, Nate sells those small square bales. We've got guys, uh, Mark Smompanato, who's a listener, he sells those small square bales around here. I mean, that's, that's a pretty big business. And if I can just do it for a little more than the cost of doing it, it's clean for me because, um, I don't need those nutrients to get ground back into the ground. We don't have the ability to, to graze that tightly to get it a uniform graze on it. And so we just need to remove that biomass and set succession backward on the stage of the grasses. And so it's more just a management- But- a management tool. But- It's either that or brush hog, and this way you get bales of hay with it. The- Yeah, and the, the question, Vince, I wanna ask you though, I was gonna... Before you started talking, I'm sorry. He doesn't have tractors just for that. The tractor itself you guys would use for other things too, so you just have additional implements to do the hay stuff, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the other thing you're gaining is the quality of the forage that's growing back because, you know, once it's, like you're saying, so big, it starts declining in, in quality. But that- That forage as it's going up, if you put cows on it, that's some great, great stuff So will y'all, so will y'all get to graze that? Will y'all get a late grazing on it still or...? Oh, we'll graze it. You know, we'll, we rotate those fields and we'll come back to them about every 30 days. So we'll- You could probably be on those fields the 1st of July, the 1st of August, the 1st of September, the 1st of October, and then we'll AI off those pastures too. So they're keeping it freshened up too, the cattle. Yeah, as long as we can get ahead of it and move them fast enough, you know. And, um, so it's, it's, it's one of those things where I don't have enough of it to justify us owning the equipment, and then you have to find somebody who kind of wants to dink around with a pain in the neck project. Right. It's not clean. The field's got rocks in them and stuff and, um, so I'm really just appreciative. This gentleman, it's his hobby, it's what he enjoys, and he has another business that makes a lot of money and he needed some write-offs and so he bought all this equipment and he's having fun with it. And, um, you know, maybe we end up... You know, at this rate we could probably get a second cutting on some of those, and that second cutting might have some real, real value for, for horse people, honestly. See, we wouldn't even need some of the hay and... But Dad just loved cutting hay. He loved doing it all except the baling, and as long as you hooked it up for him, filled it up with fuel, he was good to... And kept it greased, he was good to go. So if you weren't careful, he would lay down 2 or 300 acre- or 200 acres and then you wouldn't have time to get it up before it rained. Oh, right. So yeah. One, one year we went on vacation and they said it was gonna be clear, so we laid down a bunch of hay. Uh, they changed it before we started cutting. I said, "Dad, we don't need to cut this." Cut it. Um, it started raining. We all went on vacation and I'm calling back, "How's it going?" And the guy's like, "Vinnie, your dad's out here tedding and he's literally slinging water with a tedder." It just got done raining an inch- The, the... It stopped raining, he hopped in the tractor, I said, "Go tell him to stop." He said, "I'm not gonna tell him nothing." You tell him. So the next, the next day it rained again about another inch, and Tony's out there tedding hay again. I was like, "This is crazy." So what- So what did you do with the hay he tedded? It wasn't worth a crap. Did y'all go ahead and bale it? Well, you had to. You had to get it off the field. It was terrible. But- Oh, I had a friend just tell me- it gave him something to do I had a friend just tell me when his got rained on, he goes, it got it so bad one year, they just kept raking it and raking it and raking it and raking it until they got it over to one end of the field, and then just left it. Oh. He could, he could've set it on fire in a windrow and figured it was gonna dry. Yeah, that would've been, if not California. Well. 'Cause everything around it's dry, right? I mean- It wasn't moldy or nothing 'cause he kept it tedded enough. It never laid there and molded. So this old boy here, nobody in this area has a tedder. That's why if, if you... I don't know if we even talked about this maybe six, eight months ago or a year ago, but you were telling me- I don't think you need it you were telling me about a tedder, and I was like, "I don't even know what this is." But this guy has one, and it, it's pretty cool how he used it with that light rain a day later and spread it back out again, and that hay looks beautiful today. But you don't have any humidity, so you wouldn't need one, I wouldn't think. You don't have to have one, it just speeds the process up. Vince, do you have one of those, uh, hay mowers that puts it into a windrow where you don't have to rake it? A mower conditioner? Yeah. Those things are cool. You have one? We got two. We went to buy a new tractor- You don't even have to rake anymore, do you? We, we went to buy- No we went to buy a new tractor, and I got up and went to the bathroom, got back, and he bought another hay mower. Dad did. I was like, "Why? We didn't need it." "I wanted one." I said, "Okay." Wait, so this puts it- You know, I- in a windrow? Yeah, but it's a mower conditioner. You can widen it out or you can narrow it up It, it kinda beats the hay up. I, I don't have rollers, I have impellers, and it just beats the hay up, kinda breaks the stems. Yeah, it just like- The thought process, it would... The thought process is it dries it out quicker beating the stems up and breaking the stems. So then you come back and ted that, what, two days later? You really shouldn't have to, but we- Should just put it in a windrow some people around here get in a hurry. Oh. So we wanna do it faster, so we wanna run more equipment and burn more diesel. So- Does that same person listen to podcasts? Uh, sometimes he does. But, oh, well. He gets it honest. Blake. His granddaddy was that way, so. Blake. No, it ain't Blake. No, but, um, we narrow it up and leave it in a windrow sometimes if... Like right now we've had rain, lots and lots of rain, and the ground's wet, and we have a window coming up to possibly cut some hay. So what we'll do is we'll tighten the windrow up and let the ground between the windrows get some wind and air and sunshine. Then we may go back and ted it and scatter it all out and let it dry best we can. Where the windrows are sitting, of course, has still got a lot of moisture. Um, and that'll wick up in the hay, so you gotta, you gotta just kinda be careful. So let me ask you this. Where you cut that hay, was that the hay fields with the high-voltage power lines, or did your dad cut all the fields, even where you run cows? Oh, no, no, no, he cut everything. So those hills and everything, he'd cut the hills? "Oh, we, uh, we need to clip that. There's a lot of grass up there. We need... I don't need to bush hog. We need to go clip it for hay." I'm like... That big hill across from the sale barn- Yes The steep one that Corbin kept getting stuck on? Every, every time, every- Did he wait till it rains to go over there or...? Every time I had to dump a bale, I had to drive all the way to the top where it was flat and kick the bale out, and then I'd go all the way halfway down the hill and start baling again. Phew. There was one year, we were at another farm we don't own anymore, and I'm following him, and he is doing this little steep hill. It's a little bitty steep hill, and he could have raked it in a way that I didn't have to go on the steep part. He busted right to the middle of the steep part, and I'm going up it like an idiot because I'm following him, and about halfway up, tractor broke traction and backwards we go, and I can't see crap behind a round baler. You can't see around it. I don't know how I didn't jackknife it, but I made it. That would be the hardest thing would be to just to keep it going, keep it going straight. Yes. And there was a p- 'Cause you can't... It's not like you have a rear view mirror. But there was a pond. It's like- There was a pond behind me as well at the bottom. Did he throw rocks at you after that? No. No. Oh, okay. No. Dang. But that, that was- Joe, I know this whole time too- not great you, you just imagine the stuff Tony's screaming at Vince too the whole time. Oh, absolutely. Just the profanity and just the- What is he doing back there, right? No, there was a lot of other words than that. Wow. Yeah. Corbin, what have you been doing? Why are we talking about hay? What have you been doing, Corbin? It's interesting, that's why. Have you been making hay? No, we're getting ready to get, get rolling a little bit. Start- starting to do that, get... Starting to think about getting weeds sprayed. Um, we just got our embryos put in on Thursday, so that's a great day though. It's like that, that final... We put in embryos last, after we AI, after we do everything, so putting that last embryo in is like, uh, whenever the forecast for today, it was 96. Putting that embryo in, though, it's like, "Oh, thank goodness. All that's done." We've got about three months before we have to do anything. Oh, I mean, we'll have to do something with a cow, but we got about three months before I should have to turn that hydraulic chute on and, um, I'm ready for a break, to be honest with you. Um, we've been playing, we've been playing ball. Um, Mila's started to get, take a little bit more interest in that, and Middleie's getting bigger. Lucy tries to work a little bit more in the summertime, you know, get a few more days in, you know, 'cause I don't have as much going on. Well, I do, but, um, we've just got more hours in the day to get it done, so she tries to work a couple extra days here and there. Um, yeah, the grind don't stop, though. Nice. Nice. Vince, how was, uh, Panama City Beach? It was- Ooh it was the same as it always is. Did you put powder on your, on your forehead? What? Because usually when you get back from Panama City Beach, you look Brazilian. Do, do you know why? He didn't go. It rained. Oh, you stayed inside? It rained. I, I went to, I went to the beach for one hour one day. I sat in the room the rest of the time screaming Did you just play Scrabble or Words With Friends or something? I just watched TV is what I did. Oh, wow. I watched TV. Anything good? It was the first day it was raining, and the next day it was okay, and there was one day that was really nice. That's the day we went, and it was just fun. Do you guys wanna know, do you guys wanna know for about how long I could just sit in a room and watch TV? I would last about 11 minutes. Well- And I'd be like, "I gotta go" I used to be that way. "I, I gotta go. I gotta do something else." I don't agree, Corbin. I think, I think if, if the girls weren't around, nobody was around, and you were at, you were at a remote location. You weren't in- That's the thing in Le- you weren't in Lehigh If complete remote- Yeah you had no responsibilities and you couldn't attend to nothing, you- There's nothing to do can you just get lost sitting there? I'd get miserable. I'd be miserable. Yeah, do you just not just sit there and think about all the stuff that is going wrong while you're not at home? No. I used to. Oh my gosh. Oh, I used to bad. I cannot. I don't care anymore. I cannot. Short of- I used to the whole place burning down, I don't care. Is there nothing you could do about it? There's nothing I can do about it. That's how I am in Hawaii. It's like you gotta get on a six-hour plane flight to even get there to fix it, so you may as well not worry about it. This is the problem, though. This is what sucks for my kids and my wife, is like, if we go do something on vacation, not only do we have to entertain the children, we have to entertain Dad. I mean, because I can't sit still. I gotta be doing something the whole time. We went on a cruise, what was that, like, a couple years ago. The poop cruise. There is no- The poop cruise. The poop cruise. Yes, we went on the poop cruise. There is no... Corbin is not sitting in that room. It's just not happening. Oh, I wouldn't sit in the room there. There's nowhere to sit, first of all. Exactly. We've been talking about going on another. All right, so I want... I, I'm interrupting, I know. I'm sorry. It is a weakness of this podcast. Corbin and I interrupt. We have a guest who Vince teased, who has 13 heifers he needs to breed tonight. 12. And so Vince... 12? Was it 12? 42. I thought it was 42. I thought it was 13. 31? Maybe we can clear this up. Vince, why don't you, uh, introduce our guest? I'm excited about this one. Our- First guest ever on Around the Shoot- It is who is not running for the board. He might run for the board when it's over. Push him. We're gonna decide. By the end of this podcast. Yeah. We're gonna decide here if he, if his candace- candidacy is worth it. Uh, our first guest is a Mr. Kyle Gilooly out of Wadley, Georgia. I've known Kyle for a few years now. Uh, become, got to know him and, and I, I believe he's a really good guy, and I was glad to have him on tonight. So Kyle, take it away. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself and what you're doing in Georgia. Well, good evening, guys. Thanks for having me. Uh, pleasure to get this invitation from, from Vinnie, and, um, look forward to the discussion tonight. But no, I'm a native of Indiana. Uh, in fact, my father, Jim Gilluli, and, uh, Mr. Tony Santini go back, way, way back to the early Angus days, and, um, got to know that family, of course, through that relationship. But growing up, uh, in the Angus business, and then we acquired some Herefords along the way, uh, from my uncle's desire to get in the Hereford business. And then, uh, showed, showed both Angus and Hereford cattle growing up. And then at a Hereford Junior National in Michigan, I met a young lady from Georgia, uh, named Jennifer Oglesby, and we were friends for several years, and, uh, the more time went on, the, the closer we got. And, uh, next thing I knew, I was moving to Georgia. Uh, those Southern girls have a, have a way. But, uh, anyways, I've been here close to 21 years, moved down here in the fall. We started dating, uh, in early 2005, and then I moved down here to, to come work for her granddad, uh, that fall, uh, of '05, and have been here ever since. But, uh, Mr. Charles Smith, uh, CES Herefords and Angus, uh, again, had, had Hereford cattle. Uh, the Angus were started by his brother, Winder Smith, that, that, uh, his son Clint, and then Smitty Lamb obviously own Ogeechee Angus. So they're, they're friends through the or relatives through the Smith side of the family, and then Mr. Charles acquired those Angus cattle, uh, once Ogeechee started. Um, so I, I overtook the herd and, and kind of the general manager, uh, per se. And then Jennifer, of course, showed cattle, Herefords mostly, and I brought some cattle down here from Indiana, and we, we combined our, our few cows together and started Predestined Cattle in conjunction with her granddad's operation. And then, uh, as I was telling you guys earlier, our sale Excuse me. Our sale in March is the, uh, Partners in Progress sale, and we'll sell both Hereford and Angus females through that production sale. All right. We've got two kids, uh, Grant's 16 and Dinah Kate is 13, and they, they keep us busy. That's a full-time job in itself. Yeah, but now he's driving, so that should help a little bit. Yeah, he's... We, we got him s- we, we showed with him a little bit, but we knew early on his passion was hunting and sports, anything sport related. And, you know, our belief was we'd, since we both grew up showing, we were gonna give our kids that opportunity to do that, but we weren't gonna make 'em do it. And, uh, we just knew early on that's not where his talents and gifts were placed. Our daughter on the other hand loves it, eats it up, and, and we're gonna give her that opportunity to show as long as she wants to. But we've got a good ball player and a good cattle showman, so. Well, good. That's awesome. What, um, what we wanted to get you on tonight to talk about a little bit was the show industry in, as where it is today- Yeah versus kinda how it was years ago. Um, and I, I thought maybe since you grew up showing and you also grew up, uh, a little f- up a little further north there, they take showing pretty seriously up north. And, um, now you, you've, you were just judging the Atlantic Nationals over the weekend, correct? Yes. Yep. So you're, you're still in touch with it, especially with- Certainly your daughter showing and whatnot. So we just wanted to kinda talk about how, you know, kinda it used to be and why people showed then, and kinda how it is now. Sure. And the differences, you know. Um, so I'm, I know that Joe had a few questions, but do you want to, uh... W- what, what are your thoughts as to where the industry has gotten to today versus what it was? You know, I'm, I'm only 47, so, you know, there'd be, there'd be gentlemen and women to interview that they could take you way further back than, than my era. But I've, you know, the, the f- four of us have seen a lot of changes just, just in that short time. Um, you know, I, I don't remember obviously the days of the, the railroad and the boxcar cattle going to Denver- Right but the stories are just awesome. I, I love those stories and, and I can't even really wrap my mind around what that's like because, you know, now we're in the days of the, the, the 32-foot trailers that are air-conditioned and- and got fans in 'em, and it's like, "What do you mean railroad?" But- but, you know, to introduce that thought, I guess even in my short years of, of being involved, I've seen the transition more of what it would've been like 30 to 40 years ago of a huge marketing tool- Yeah the show ring was, and now I look at it as a, i- it still is, but it's geared towards junior exhibitors, young 4-Hers, FFA, the, the young generation. And, and that's, that's ultimately what it, it should be about. Correct. Because I, I remember, my, my dad's judged cattle shows in probably every major show in the country and even overseas. But I remember growing up and, and hearing his comments at the end of cattle shows, and more often times than not, he would remind people constantly, "If you take the junior program out of any of these breed associations, you cut the heart out of that association," and because it's the next generation. We all understand that. Right. And so where we're at today with such a, a major focus on, on the young people, man, that, that's awesome. But like I said, travel back 30 years or more and it was, it was one of the main marketing tools for purebred breeders, for seed stock breeders to go to a national show and, and- Right parade their, their cattle around. It wasn't just a junior show. It was, a lot of the focus and attention was towards the, the open shows. And those, those cattle, and correct me if I'm wrong, but those cattle were not... I wouldn't think that they were... They were more- Maybe more so performance driven than fancy like today's fancy. Tho- those were cattle that looked good and you could take and show, but they would also come home and, and raise cattle, um, raise a calf, and, and maybe put into a program to a cow-calf operation, correct or no? Oh, 100%. Uh, you know, it was, uh, it was really about the next generation, uh- Right in terms of the cattle. Right. You wanted to have the national champion bull so you, you know, year and a half down the road you could be showing the next generation offspring out of that national champion bull. And then you wanted to take those cow-calf pairs to the national show. I mean, I mean, that was... I, I remember going to Canada to judge, oh, that's probably been 15 years ago, and they just, they love a cow-calf pair up there. Yeah. And I do, too. I, I think ultimately we do this hopefully with the idea that we're, we're trying to make the next generation better. But in the day and age now of in vitro fertilization and, and mass production of genetics, uh, let's face it, the, the mama cow doesn't have to be a mama, Right in today's industry. Exactly. She can be a donor, and, uh, that's all she ever has to be. But, so, um, yes, there was, there was so much emphasis towards the production aspect, um, and producing that next generation. And now it's almost, you know, I don't wanna say anything out of bounds, but, you know, it's, it's a project now it seems like. It's a hobby. It's, uh, it's to give our s- kids something to do. And like I said earlier, that's a great and wonderful thing as long as we keep kind of the, the production aspect, um, in mind. They're almost kind of terminal the way that some of these are nowadays. Unfort- They're so extreme. Yep. Yeah. I was, uh, I'll just quick story time. I was in line, I was in Trans Ova last week 'cause we got cows flushed for, we put in eggs fresh for our transfer, and I ran some cow- I brought this cow in out of the pasture just to flush her one time, and I was kind of hoping nobody would be there and nobody would see, like, "Oh my God, I can't believe he's flushing this cow." I mean, it's not like, it's not like they would be like, "Oh, her udder's terrible," or, "She's not good-footed." It's just, she's that harder doing, she's like 4 at 112 working her butt off type of cow. And I was like, "Golly, I hope nobody sees her." Well, I just so happened to be in li- And she's, she was one of those I was just gonna steal a flush on. I'm gonna get one flush out of her, and she went back and she's already pregnant and back and she's, she's just being a cow. I just flushed her one time. Anyways, so I tell that to tell that I was in line behind a guy that was, that was in the show business, um, and he was flushing a heifer that, uh- flushing a heifer that they had ar- that apparently shown. I mean, they put a halter on her. That's the only way they could get her to stand still was they put a halter on her and had her standing there in the chute. And she made a bunch of oocytes, and it was apparently she flushed pretty good and was making good, gonna make a bunch of eggs, and he was gonna make some money off of her. So then I asked her, because they said she had a CL on her right side, and I was like, "Well, well, would you ever breed her? I mean, would you ever breed her? I mean, would that make her flush better? Would that make her be a better cow? I mean, would that keep some weight off her? That could, that could be better to make, make everything..." And he was like, "This cow has absolutely no business raising a calf, ever." I was like, "Oh, I guess you better breed her to, like, a Wagyu or a Corriente or something. That way she could spit it out." And he goes, "She would never raise a calf. She's..." At, at least he knew. At least he knew what he was... It's not like he pretended- Right that she was a cow. He was like, "We're just so far off base with what we're doing here, you know? I mean, this is not real world," and I realize that, and I'm sitting here looking... He's sitting there looking at my... I mean, he's got this 1,400-pound stale heifer that's never had a calf, and then here I bring in this 1,200-pound cow that's got a 250-pound 45-day-old calf on her side. Yeah, it's just totally, total different ends of the spectrum. Right. But I thought that was funny- Sure um, to get that, to, to just see the difference. And, and that's all going on right there at Trans Ova, you know, just different worlds. It's maybe 15 years ago I really thought we could bridge that gap between what, what we'd call number cattle, if you will, and show cattle, but I, I'm not convinced it's getting broader the, the further advanced we get- It's getting further with technology. And, and, and again, our, like we've been talking about, the show ring is geared differently now, so you're taking it further down that avenue. And, and d- I'm not gonna say whether it's right or wrong, it's just completely different. And if it works in your market, that's what I always say, if it works in your marketing program, do what works for you. If you're in the show calf business and you don't have to naturally ha- have calves, do what works for you. But in my line of work, well, a cow doesn't last very long here if she doesn't Well, that, that brings me- Doesn't have a calf to the next question I wanted to ask you. So, so you're in this realm where y- where you're judging these shows, so you're seeing these big broody just kind of freaks of nature, and you're, you're judging them, having to sort them, and then you also have your production Angus and Hereford cows that have a job to do. Yeah. So how do you bridge that gap within your program? I mean, like, so do you, so do you just keep it totally separate and what, what your daughter shows is what she shows and that's totally separate and we're gonna breed our cattle for prod- I mean Or do we just, or do we try to bridge that gap and we try to do something that can I mean, either that or we just accept that, that these cattle don't have any relevancy Uh, maybe yes, yes, and yes to every one of those questions. Um, I tell people, and I say it often at our cattle sale in my opening comments, I try to breed cattle right down the middle of the lane, where they are made in such a way structurally, the females are feminine, the bulls are masculine, they've got all the right pieces that if you take these females here and you wanna make a show calf out of them, they are built in such a way that they can handle a bull that's extreme in, in, in production terms that could possibly give you a show calf, but built in such a way because of those exact same traits that if you were to take the number one dollar C bull in the breed or the highest marbling bull in the breed, maybe she's got all the right pieces where, you know, she can handle a, a bull with, with those high number traits as well. So I To me, the word balance is such a, a huge word because I don't, I don't like some of the trends in the show cattle industry because they seem to be a little single trait selected, but no different than some of the carcass cattle that we're producing in today's industry, where if we're just gonna focus on one or two numbers, that's single trait selection, and I think that's where we get into a world of hurt with feet problems, bad udders, very little longevity, uh, because really in all honesty, just like you said, that show cow that was being flushed, she shouldn't live to be more than four or five years old. If that's, if that's the route they're going with her, they're going to just ruin her so fast that she won't produce even good eggs a couple years down the road. Likewise, with that, that animal that we are just really focusing on terminal traits, if we're focusing on solely terminal traits and an animal terminally for a market isn't supposed to live to be over two years of age, there's no longevity there either. So that's where I wanna bridge those gaps and, and produce those cattle that, that do have some, some long-term value One of the things too that, that I've always wondered as, as being someone that's not really a part of the show world and something that I don't really understand, I understand sorting and picking like, like, uh, like I'm just picking your brain here, but I understand picking that big broody, uh, that big broody heifer that's just got all the parts and pieces and she's just kind of a freak of nature. But then when you're judging these shows, do you sort of have a soft spot or do you see some value in that, in that one that you think could go be a cow? I mean, d- d- do they have any relevancy when some of these judges are sorting the... I mean, is there any way that we can- Make this a little bit different. Um, and I don't know if that, there's other w- other, other things we need to discuss too later in the podcast about how we do that. Sure. But just to start off, I mean, I mean, when you see- Well, let's- one of those walk in the ring that could be a cow, what is, what is your first thought? We'll just take that show I just judged, uh, last Sunday for instance. That was the Atlantic National, and that is a I haven't been there, my dad, in fact, I think the last time I was at the Atlantic National was maybe 1991 when, uh, my dad judged it, so I was just a young, early teenager. But I, the reputation of that show is very unique. Um, it's ob- obviously typically in May, Memorial Day weekend, and it's actually, it's kind of a confusing show because it's actually the end of the Angus, the two tw- 2025, the previous show season. You're wrapping that up with the show in May. So i- it's already hot, it's already summertime, and so you're kind of thinking you're, you're going into the next season- Right but it's actually wrapping up the previous season. So you've got, uh, they've got a cow-calf show, but they only had one pair there for the cow-calf division, but those January, February, Marchs come back junior yearlings, and they've got calves on their side if they've, you know, if they've been bred and, and had- Right the calf. And so I had I think maybe four or five pairs in that yearling division, and that's actually what won the, uh, the heifer show and was even supreme overall was I think the February with a calf on her side, and she was amazing, just powerful, good uddered. And so that was just, that was right up my alley. Because whenever I judge, I talk about those traits I previously mentioned, the structure, the femininity, the, the indicator of longevity. And, and now the, the problem with the show ring is it's kind of a catch-22. You have to judge those cattle as they are that day, pure and simple. But, and so you don't, you don't wanna try to predict, you don't wanna, you know, go too far advanced, but if you're using those indicators of structure, balance, femininity, soundness, those are all indicators of that longevity. So yeah, I'm trying to project these cattle- Two, three years down the road. And I'll often make comments and I, it probably makes some people upset because when you get beat in the show ring by a judge who talks about good cow prospects and then he uses kind of the fancy ones, that turns people the wrong way. But, but I talk about a lot of cattle that, that may not be at 12 o'clock that day of the show. I said, "You know what? This is a great show heifer today, but bring her to me in two years and I'm probably gonna like her even better," because that's what I'm looking for is- Right is a way to, to make those cattle ultimately production type cattle. Uh, so yes, when, when, when I'm standing in the show ring, I'm even looking at udder design and, and that might be in a, in a young calf. Um, teat spacing, short teats, you know, I'm looking at, man, that could be a great udder two years down the road, and she's only a seven, eight-month-old calf. But I'm looking at those, all those traits that might lead me to believe that there's some, some future cow, um, in those females especially. But a- and in, in answer to your question, there's judges out there, that's not what they're paid to do. They're, they're gonna judge those cattle as they are that day. And in defense to everything that I just said, I have also told people at a cattle show, "Let's be honest, today is a beauty contest for cattle, pure and simple." So if we start getting a little bit carried away and thinking too much outside the box, let's focus on what these cattle are doing today. They're, they're fitted to the max. They've got hair that I can't stand being in Georgia, but it sure does look pretty inside of a show ring. So all these things that, that you say, well, that's not really real world, well, it's not. It's a, it's a beauty contest for cows that day. So you gotta take that into consideration too. Um, you know, some of the, some of the things that you don't necessarily look for every day, that's kind of a unique situation when you're in that situation. So you just touched, Kyle, on a, on kind of a, a scenario, I won't tell you mine, but I'll ask you this question. As a guy that judges, what is one of your biggest pet peeves to watch someone else judge that you try to avoid? Oh boy, that's a loaded question. You, you should have given me that- before this. Well, that's why I was texting these guys. That one would have been a great one. I said, "No, no, no. I got one that ties in here good-" You should 'cause my response ties into that. Gotta shoot from the hip on this one. But oh, there, there may be a few. Um, um, I, first thing I think is so important, and, and this starts at a young age, this starts at, on judging teams, and... But accurate descriptions of cattle is, is so important. And I, I think in some ways we're teaching young people, I don't care what level, I'm not gonna throw anybody under the bus, whether it's at the high school level, college level, whatever, but w- we're in a competition, and so we're there, what? To win, and at all costs sometimes. So we teach kids to, to talk brilliantly and, and use all these fancy terms. But if they don't apply to the animal- What, what are we doing? And so if I'm sitting there watching a show, and, and I've told people this before that have come up to me afterwards and say, "You know what? I didn't really agree with, with the decisions you made, but I couldn't really argue with what you said about the animal." And I said, "Then that's great. We all have opinions." Right. We all, we all think cattle should be made differently. If we all looked at cattle the same, there would really not be a need for a show ring, there wouldn't be a need for a production sale. W- we have all these different programs to express our differences in this, in this industry. But if, if I can accurately tell you why I did what I did, that's, that's the meat for me, uh, versus somebody that's gonna go in there and, and maybe even place the cattle, uh, or any species the way that I would, but then you start listening for their reasons and why they did what they did, and they couldn't be further from from- the truth. That would be me. So that So that's, that's one of my, one of my pet peeves maybe. Um, an- another one might be, you know, I, I'm a, I'm, I'm a people watcher. Um- Ooh, me too. Let's talk about that for a minute. That opens the can of worms right there. Let's talk about that for a minute. Hold on. Hold on. Let's, let's unpack that for a second. So, so we go, we go to an airport, where is your favorite spot to sit in an airport and watch people walk by? I'm just gonna sit in that row that faces the aisle and just people watch. Yeah. We're gonna sit, we're gonna sit, and we, and we might, and we might not be in that good of an area. If we're early enough, we might venture down to a different terminal. We might go- "Hey, there's better people watching on the people that are flying to Atlanta than the people that are flying to North Dakota." Absolutely. I'm gonna go down there. Who's going, who's going to Turks and Caicos? Who's going to Hawaii? Yeah. Absolutely. And then who's going to Portland, Oregon? That might- Absolutely. But- No, I didn't mean to get you off track there no. But, but I w- I watch, I watch people, and integrity is a word that was instilled in me at a very early age, and I think anybody that ever judged or showed underneath my dad or, or watched my dad judge knows where that came from, him and my mother both. But, you know- If you're gonna walk into the show ring as a judge and be in a position where you're going to interact with my children and all the children, and i- if we're talking about a junior show scenario, and you're gonna put on an image of integrity and, and professionalism, I, I hope that goes with you when you leave the ring. Um, whether you're, you know, in the barn with your own cattle, uh, you're at the hotel, you're at a restaurant, you're at your farm, wherever it may be, that, that you carry yourself with the same image and the same values that, that you wanna try to portray, uh, inside the, the show ring, that, uh, the outside should be, should be just as Filled with integrity as the other. Um, so that, that's pretty important, uh, to me, if that makes sense. Oh, I think it makes perfect sense, and I love it because I think sometimes we get so immersed in this industry, it's almost like we don't really understand that the majority of those young exhibitors look to you as a mentor, as a moral compass, as a person who That's why you're wearing the suit and the tie, you know? Yeah. That's why you're wearing a nice hat and you dress presentably, because that's a professional evaluation of something for some people. And, and, um, we d- we didn't get to my pet peeve and, and it's not a It, it doesn't really fit now, but, um, I That's why I get, I get frustrated at some of these really small county fairs when guys They'll, they'll get somebody to judge and they might say, out here at least, "Well, I'm not gonna give reasons." Well, no, you, you should be able to give reasons because that young person has put in the time for a full year, sometimes more, into that project, and they deserve to understand why their animal was put in a certain position. Certainly. Um, and so when you say, you know, y- you When you step into that ring, you do accept the role of being someone of integrity or a model within the industry. And, and that's a heavy, that's a heavy burden to bear. And, um, I, I think a lot I, I would say the majority of people evaluating livestock do that with integrity and try to be a model outside of the show ring. Yep. But, um, I think, I think you called to mind a really important two really important facts. And I had this conversation today because a pretty well-renowned judge called me today about a different subject. And I said, "Hey, I was talking to you a couple, talking about you a couple weeks ago." Um, he judged Fort Worth and I was in Texas and, and one of the guys asked me, he goes, "Hey, do you know him?" And I said, "Yeah, we're good friends." And, and he said, "What'd you think of him?" Yeah. And I said, uh, "You know, he changed the way I judge livestock." And he said, "Why is that?" And I said, "I came out from a judging team and thought I had to impress people with all the things I had to say. And I watched him, and he describes the cattle simply, concisely, and incredibly accurately." Mm-hmm. And so when I told that to this gentleman, he said, "I don't think most judges nowadays realize- That the average person in the stands listening to their reasons only understands very simple terms. Right. Mm-hmm. And- Do you wanna know the tr- the truth is, is it's like hard to believe that they even know what they're, that they even believe what they're saying sometimes. And I don't think they do, Corbin, because, uh, I mean, our guest is not poking at anybody, but I will say it because I can and you can. You have to differentiate yourself in the reasons room at some cheap hotel when you're trying to score a 49 or a 50 instead of a 46 like everybody else does. So you have to be memorable by a certain word that was used or, uh, emoting a certain feeling to someone. You have to stand out, and it, it's hard to score 50s when you say she was boulder-sprunged, she was stouter-hipped, she was more massively constructed. But when you say goofy things like cheetah-footed, which I don't even know what that means anymore- Or- It means she's fast. You know, like, uh- I mean, I hear some of these words and I go, "What are we doing?" Yeah. What are we doing? And, and see, that does nothing more to me to, than frustrate me and, and think That's part of the disconnect conversation that we're trying to have here, is like if we have to use these big superlatives and these big words and things, then, then we're totally missing the point. We're missing the, missing the purpose of what... Do you guys really think that these shows were created to, to find the ones that did freaky things, or were they fo- or were they to find function? To find... I, even, even if we were looking for the freaks, we were still looking for the ones that provided something special, not something that's- I think you should ask- feeded from I think you should ask our guests that question. Yeah. I think that's a good question to ask. So what was the question? Put it, put it in a question form for me. Perfect. Put it into question form for me. Well, when we first started exhibiting livestock, was it to identify freaks? Was it to identify completeness? Um, I'm kinda teeing it up and I hope you answer it a certain way 'cause I got a good follow-up, but what, what do you think, Kyle? When it, when it first all started, um, what was given value or how was value placed in the show ring? First off, I'd a- I'd answer that by going, we've talked a little bit about judging teams, and I think college, college professors, college industry leaders were so impactful in a good way years ago. Right. In fact, you know, back before my time when we saw, when the industry saw that huge change from what we called the belt buckle tall cattle to the eight, nine frame cattle that you could walk under, what a huge transition that people saw. Was it negative or was it positive? Regardless how you looked at it, you had, you had industry leaders that were looking for a change, and whether that was through performance, whether that was through, uh, breed, uh, association, numbers and data, whatever the purpose was, um, th- they changed it for the better. And now, now I don't know what w- now I don't know what we're doing exactly. But, you know, we've got trends. I don't wanna be producing cattle on a trend. I wanna produce cattle for the long haul because as we all know, fads and trends come and go. But, um- Yeah, th- just a, a lot of change. Were, were we producing cattle, as the question was earlier, for freaks? No, I don't think we were. But if you were set in your ways, then you would, yes, say that some of those cattle were freaks. That's who was gonna win. Yep. That's who was gonna win. Yeah. So Kyle, let me ask you this. I mean, and this is where I, I was kinda teeing it up on that question a little bit. Back in those days, didn't it seem like there was, you knew this judge placed more value on muscle, this judge pr- placed more value on softness, this judge placed more value on structure, this one b- placed value on completeness. Do we still see judges with their own uniqueness, or is there kind of a box of ideal that's promoted through shows where kind of generally judges are expect to always pick the same one? Don't forget the judge that was buddies with the guy showing You gotta remember that guy too Well, there's that h- that guy too. But that is, that aside- Yeah, this, this- Do you get what I'm saying in the question? Y- oh, yeah. And this- Or the one that- This could go, this could turn into a three-hour conversation. Just, just this, honestly, this question alone, because a- again, in answer to your question, yes, you can answer it a couple of ways. I think ultimately it depends on the judge, obviously, kind of a elementary answer, but it is. And the, the reason I say that is typically if you have a producer, a cattleman as the judge, my assumption is that guy is gonna go in there, or woman, I, I don't wanna single select, but that individual is gonna go in there with production-oriented mindset, and the kind of cattle that he or she likes, he or she raises. And so that's what I would assume at the end of the show. I would follow that person because of how they raise cattle. But if you are fresh out of college, or you are maybe... And I'm not gonna, I'm not s- saying anything negative towards a judging team coach, but if, if that's where you spend the majority of your time is in a coaching format, or a young college kid out of that format, you're going to be more in a box because let's face it, you spent, whether it was one year, four years, 10 years, through 4H, college, however long, and then even maybe coaches, you spend the majority of your time evaluating a class of only four animals. So you, you might break 'em down into single comparisons, you might break 'em down into pairs, an easy top, an easy bottom, but what if you've got eight animals out there? What if you've got 12 animals out there? All of a sudden you're in a realm that's outside of that box that we're talking about, and you've got to start using- A little bit of real-world knowledge to say, "Okay, I've, I've gotta get these ones towards the top and these others toward the bottom." And, and so a- again, maybe that answers your question, maybe it doesn't, but I think, I think, yes, there's a lot of variations depending on the, the background of that judge that's in there, you know, what, what he does day to day. And, and again, good comes in all kinds. There's, there's good producers of cattle, and you might get guys in there that, that may not have much experience judging shows, and so they sound pretty naive when it comes to the show ring, but they may be the best cowboy in a thousand-mile radius. You get, you get somebody more along the lines of a, of a judging team member or coach in the, the ring, and they know all the great terms. They know all the, like we talked about earlier, saying those unique things to get somebody's attention. But the question comes down to it, did it accurately describe that animal? Um, so that, did that answer your question? Yeah, I think it did and, and I think a follow-up to that though is in this social media world, I mean, and so much value in these cattle now. It doesn't matter if she's Charolais, she's Maine, she's Angus, she's, uh, registered under four different breeds 'cause she had a key jump in her pen one time and now she can be appendixed. I mean, I- there's so much value on these cattle, there's a lot of pressure to be right, and then there's TikTok videos and there's social media and things blow up, and I think you have one population of people who evaluate livestock who are seeking that opportunity to do it in the real world. Yeah. And then you have another population who's been doing it their entire lives, who have industry experience and acumen to bring back to, and it almost is unfair because that person may hammer a certain set of cattle that have an incredible amount of value that they, those producers know won't work for them. And, and the reason I bring that up is it's real time for me. I really enjoy judging shows. I absolutely love it. I love judging fat steer shows. And lately I've had to pull... When I say lately, the last couple years, I've had to pull way back off of that because I've realized that my placings are really, really confusing, and it's really frustrating to people because when that freak comes in and he weighs 1,600 and he's cool and he feels good and moves good and you use him, and then you got 14 ranch calves after him, and then you got the next cool one that's a cripple, it's confusing to people. Sure. Yeah. And so I guess the reason I even brought this up is, is I feel like you mentioned belt buckle to large cattle. The industry was ripe, ripe for a movement, and somebody was bold enough and respected enough to make a placing that started to shift industry, shift industry. Do we have that opportunity now? Ooh, that's a huge question. I think there's always an opportunity to do something great and different. Uh, the question is, what is that right now? Yeah. A- a- and that's, a- again, I can answer it one way, you could answer it a different way. A seed stock producer could answer it one way, and a, a kid fresh out of high school could answer it, uh, one way. But, um, we're, we're always in a po- we should, we should always be in a position to do something far above and greater than what's ever been done before, but we don't ever know what that looks like, do we? You know, who would have ever guessed when they picked that big 1,600, whatever that steer weighed, and, and thought outside the box, that that ever would've caught on? We would've just... So many people probably just thought that judge was out of his mind that day, but he started something big. Um- So would it have to be a judge that has a incredible amount of clout within the industry now? You sure would think so, wouldn't you? And then, but then, but then too, you would have to get past the period where it was like, "Okay, what's this guy doing?" You would have to get... He- they would be, they would just think he was crazy for a while. I mean, it would, it would have to be a hell of a lot more than just placing a show differently one time, you know what I mean? It could to be dependent upon his reasons. Yeah. I mean, they would have to, but it would have to, it would take time, and it would have to somebody- And a- and, and again, I, I don't know, I don't know what direction that would be because to me, just like I opened up talking to you guys about where I want to be in my production, I want to be in the middle where I can go a number of different ways and still produce a balanced product. Um, and, and so when I start thinking that if you're gonna do something bigger and greater and different, probably being in the middle of the lane isn't the place to be. Um, but that's where I want to be. I, I don't, I don't know that I want to go through a big change because to me, one of the greatest blessings, benefits, whatever you want to call it, that I get out of this me breeding cattle, raising cattle, is to see that next generation get better in my eyes. It may not be what you like, but in my eyes, if I've taken that cow and I've bred her just to the right bull, and I make that next calf bigger, better, greater, the next generation, that's what I get the most joy out of. Right. Not that it's gonna go and maybe do something if it... Y- man, if I could sell a bull calf for $250,000, that'd be great. We all have that dream in- Yeah this business. But if it's something that I can just make a herd sire out of and produce two, three more generations out of, I've done ultimately what I want to do. Uh, but it, but I don't... Man, to, what, what is that next big thing? That's, that's a huge question because I, you know, I, I get frustrated. I get frustrated in the show ring. Um, let's just take Angus cattle for instance, and I've, I've said this before in the last year, I think we made them so refined- Pencil neck, as some guys call it. No chest. Beautiful outline, beautiful profiling, but you get around behind them, there's nothing to 'em. No asshole. And, and, and, and yeah. And, and a lot of these judges now are even judging solely on the profile. They don't even get around behind the cattle. They are selecting on the profile only. And- So don't let 'em around me. But, but Kyle, a- answer, you know the answer and so do I, but for our listeners, why is that? Because they- That's what I- I, I don't know why that is, 'cause I don't do it. No, and I, I think for, for the young one that doesn't Or I shouldn't say young, but for the person who doesn't have a lot of experience outside of the show ring, I've always thought it's because that's how you take the pictures next to the calf that won. Yeah. And that's the one that gets plastered all over social media, and they'd say, "This guy's a knucklehead. Look at the tight-hearted one that he used." Well, you don't get to see the muscle. That, that side of it. And the top. And, and if you, if you can't read through hair, they all look thick enough- Right if they've got the right amount of hair and trimmed up right. But whenever, whenever we do that, um, it, it just, it, it, it rubs me the wrong way that we've gotta, we've gotta be able to distinctly decide our priorities. Is it muscle? Is it structure? Is it the pretty ones? Is it the rugged, masculine steers? And it, it should be a combination of those things, but what I was getting at with some of these Angus cattle, what I think we're doing now, we've got them so extreme, we're trying to find the bulls to breed to those show heifers, to make 'em stutter, to get those traits back into them. And here's, here's what we do, and, and we're probably all guilty of it, we wanna make that change in one generation. We can't stand baby steps- in today's cattle industry. We wanna do it in one shot. Right. And to me, that's why we've gotten where we are with the problems, feet problems, udder problems, no longevity, because we try to fix numbers in one shot, we try to add muscle in one shot. And, and I, I judged a show not, a few years ago, and I said, "We can do one of two things in this, in our breeding programs. We can improve cattle or we can change cattle." I wanna improve cattle, because by improving, I'm probably already starting with something pretty good, with structure, those big things I've been talking about all night. Right. Those, those big things. And then if I need to add a little muscle, I can add a little muscle. If I need to get that bull to, to, to maybe smoothen 'em, cabin ease, bring their shoulder in, whatever, I can improve him. But if I'm trying to change an animal, I'm probably starting with something that's pretty bad. Right. I've got a structure issue, I've got no muscle, I've got an ugly head or an ugly front end, and I think I'm gonna go find this bull that's gonna change that. No, you're probably gonna screw that animal up- Right even more because you're changing it instead of improving it. So that, that's where I kinda I, I wanna start out with a really good animal that I don't have to tweak too much that, uh... But when we have to go find those big things to change, and I think we're doing that in the Angus industry a little bit, we're trying to... We, we spent 10, 15 years making these things so pretty profiling, in one generation we're trying to find that bull to add more muscle and guts and power into 'em, and, and now we're kinda making 'em ugly. Right. That, that's, that's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. You know, you touched on two or three things here that I wanna kinda back up on, and, and Joe, you can weigh in on this too. You know, Joe made mention of the, when you go in the room and you gotta fill out the card and say all the right things, I have never been through a judging class or part of a judging team, so I wouldn't know, so I'm genuinely asking, do they... And I'm sure it's different in every college, in every coach and, and everything. Do kids go in there and learn functional- Good things that they can move forward w- with life and i- in, uh, uh, building a herd of cattle, or are they just getting taught to say the right thing? Kind of like every other, just about every other college course in the world- when you, when you leave college and you go to the real world, none of it applies. No, I, I think, I think there's... I know a lot of judging coaches, a lot of wonderful programs throughout the country- And I'm not talking bad about them, okay? No, I, I- Because I know- and I'm with you, and, and I think knowing enough of them, they're in it for the, they're in it to teach, they're in it to, to give those kids... Because there is, those classes are, and when I say classes, the, the college courses are teaching real world genetics and- Okay and how to, how to bring all these, 'cause there's a lot of information getting thrown at these kids. So they're doing it the right way, they're teaching them values, they're teaching them principles and fundamentals, and then- What we're gonna have to do, just like a basketball team or a football team, we're gonna have to take the very best of the best- Mm-hmm that- that know what they're doing, but then also know how to talk, and yeah, you're trying to win a, you're trying to win a contest. Right. So anybody's gonna go in there and- and maybe have to overlook the kid that- that possibly grew up on a farm and has really a lot of knowledge of a, of an animal, but may not be very good orally- Right versus that kid that was brought in that had no experience in the livestock industry growing up, but has tremendous talent with words and vocabulary, and if they can get that individual, um, seeing things fairly close, they're gonna, they're gonna hope that that- That's gonna be the one that's gonna take it and run. Yeah. Right. And- and so it's- it's- it's up to that, it's up to that instructor, it's up to that coach to really fine-tune those kids. But- but yes, I- I think there's a lot of real-world value that comes out of these programs. But then again, just like a cow show being a beauty contest for cattle, a judging contest can sometimes give you the image that it's just a, you know, 10 classes, four animals apiece, let's see who's the luckiest- Right one of the the bunch that day. And- and- and that would be me and Joe. Me and Joe might pick the same cow, but I would say something totally just blunt and- and not very much information, and Joe would say all the right words. Yeah. So- I would say, uh, I just wanted to respond to that 'cause you mentioned me, Vince, um- Didn't mention me the last 10 minutes anyway Corbin, me and you are in the same boat, buddy. Livestock judging was the best thing I've ever done aside from getting married and having kids. Um- That's awesome and I was terrible. That sucks. And what it was is- Best thing you've ever done? You've done some cool stuff. That's true. That is true. Just the way it taught me so much humility, and you couldn't hide behind anything. It's like wrestling. Like I say about wrestling or even, Corbin, for you, golf, like it's a team sport, but ultimately it's what you've done- You ball it and how much work you've put in and how much you've honed your craft. And, and I was accidentally put on a team. It wasn't accidentally, it was very intentional, but I wasn't supposed to judge for the college. I was, I was running the bull test at the time and, and they had a member that wasn't allowed to be on the team anymore, and the way our school worked, we only had a team every other year. And so there were other kids on scholarship that weren't going to get to judge their senior year. And so the professor said, "Hey, you've taken the judging class. Did you judge in high school?" And I said, "Yeah, off some videos." You know, and, and I could see them. Um, and he said, "We'd really like for you to judge so this team could do it, and we'll help you." And, um, from the humility piece, the understanding how to organize your thoughts, how to make- quick observations of differences of things I think was super formative in my life at that time when you're thinking- Mm-hmm back to me being 19 tw- I guess I was 20. I was 20 on that judging team, and I'm a huge advocate for it. Now, our guest Kyle, uh, really explained incredibly well where the pitfalls can be. Um, and it's in that upper, upper echelon of competition, but you gotta think in the other 95th percentile is fully populated with people that we're sending out with some really cool life skills, I believe. Well- And then think, and to not put words in your mouth, but think of the people that you met along the way. Ah. And, and that's what I tell, uh, uh, to go exactly along with what you're saying, I, I, I gotta be careful 'cause I don't want to tell young people this too much, but it was the most important thing I did in college, uh, because a lot of the- Yep things that I know today either I already knew from experience or I learned post-college. But the judging team and the connections, and then the group of people that I judged with are some of my very dearest friends to this day, 25 years later. Um, it, it's such a, such a great people connection. Um- And it's like, is there anything more fun than touring a set of cattle with a friend of yours where you can chop it up and discuss differences- in livestock, and- Yeah maybe you argue a little- and maybe you don't, but man, that's the most fun I have, period. So see- Yeah that's actually the opposite of going to college to get a degree in something that when you get out of college you know nothing about and you have to learn it- on the job. Well, that's what, one of the, uh, and I'm glad it kinda came to this, but one of the things that I've always thought whenever it came to a judging team, uh, was, was if we could get those, those members to spend more time within cow herds rather than within their class of four. Right. Um, it might take a little more leg work. I don't know if it would do any good. I don't know if maybe we're already doing that. I don't know if that maybe should've been a question I asked Kyle, was, was how, how often these, these college kids are given the opportunity to be within a cow herd judging- What's working within a cow herd, because I think it's so much different. I mean, you, you start judging a wet one versus judging a dry steer or, uh, just a big fat steer, it's totally different. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, first of all, that, that big old steer might be dead by the time he'd be a 10-year-old cow that you'd be out there j- or if- if his mother's probably already dead anyway. Yeah. So, um, I didn't know if that was maybe something that, that we should advocate for in the future, or something that's already going on. Well, I imagine it's going, it probably largely depending on the, the school, uh, the availability of, of whether how many, how much livestock is at that university on that university farm- Right. Mm-hmm than how many, you know, cow herds, sheep herds, pig barns are in a trav- you know, good traveling distance to that particular. So yeah, it's, it's up to that professor and coach. Um, and then obviously, you know, w- the availability, uh, of, of those cow herds and, and numbers that you can, can throw at those young people. Um, some are more fortunate, the, than others. You get out there in the Oklahoma, Texas, uh, it seems like it's unlimited. They can pr- Right they can judge, they don't even spend time in the classroom 'cause they could go judge all day long- Right at, at a number of different places, and then- And then they- You know, like- still get it wrong. I, what, I'm sorry. Do, do, do they ever get an opportunity to do a, a big group of, say, like you say, 12 versus just the four? I know they're taught to pick the four, I get that. But as a, as a group or, or whatever, because, you know, you go into a show ring, you're not g- you're gonna have more than four. Yeah. Sometimes you have two, sometimes you have one, sometimes you have 19. You know? Not, not all contests, but some contests will do keep call classes. Will they? So you'll have, have eight head in there, and you keep four and you call four. Okay. Um, and then so that, that gives you a little more, um, real world, you know, environment. Right. Um, you don't typically give reasons on that class, so you don't have to typically back up why you did- Right what you did. But, but yes, there are, and, a- and then again, I think there's a lot of good coaches out there that they give those kids a lot of options to, to, to think, think outside of, of just the four and, and broaden their thinking skills a little bit. More. Right. And I- And I actually think, Vince, I, I mean, I think Kyle and I are thinking along the same lines quite a bit on this. Um, not to put words in your mouth, Kyle, at all, but it's... I think the really, really unique livestock evaluating young people are the ones who are fully formed and do have a background and do understand and can describe them. And in general, those are gonna be the people that are hitting the doubles and triples, and they may not hit the home run, but they're always gonna be hanging around. Right. I mean, when I think about some of the young people that I knew that were national champions, I mean, they can evaluate stock. No doubt. Their parents can evaluate stock. Yeah. They can describe them at a young age. We were all... I mean, some of them kids I knew personally, I mean, we were talking stock with them when they're five, six years old and- Certainly and chopping it up. And so there are some of them that really, really get it. If there's a call to action, though, it is the people from industry that, that are, that do understand how to put a class together, who do wanna give back to their community, just judging some local county fairs. Um- Yeah and, and because really, Kyle, isn't that it? I mean, the list is not long a lot of times of people who are willing to be there on a Thursday afternoon and judge a 40-steer show. No. I, I think there's a lot of, lot of folks that want it until the time comes, and then it's... That's, that's kind of a... Even a county fair is a big stage for a lot of people because- Right it's one thing to walk into a reasons room and tell one person why you did what you did. Right. But that first time you pick up a microphone and you've got 50, 100, 200 people sitting there, it's a whole different, it's a whole different deal. Oh, I can guarantee that. And, and, and for me, it's, it's that you got 40 young people whose college tuitions are riding on that. Their first car is riding on that. Um, they've invested in these projects, and you wanna get it right and do right by them. Yeah. And like you mentioned earlier, they're watching you. They're looking up to you. Yeah. You have a job to do. Yeah. And if you do that job well, you know, you might be able to touch someone and they might be able to, to use what you said in those... I mean, so the reasons are important, obviously. Right. But, uh... Yeah, I, I, I... Are we, are we getting close to wrapping here? 'Cause I got- Well, I had a couple more questions. So, you know, a minute ago you were talking about it's a beauty contest W- do you, has it always been a beauty contest or does it seem like in the last 15 years it's really evolved? I say 15 years, might be 20, whatever. It's really evolved into a feeding and, and fitting contest. Because- I- I think you could sheer- I would say that's ac- Go ahead. I would say that's accurate. Um, has it always been a beauty contest? Yeah, because it's, it's always been, you know, a judge went in there to- Correct pick the best to the least. But as we do get more advanced, and then this thing is just so competitive now, that it is e- I, I tell people I am not a professional at, I don't think I'm a professional at anything. I'm not a fitter, so I have a great appreciation for these artists, that I call them. They are artists. Same. I agree. They can go in and take this hair and do unbelievable things with it. That's a talent. There are guys that are behind the scenes with the feed bucket- Mm-hmm and a feed scoop. They are artists because they know exactly how to feed one, and it may not be they can look at this animal and say, "Okay, I'm gonna get this heifer ready for the state fair, but this one here in the pen next to her, she's not gonna be ready till Louisville. And this one down here at the end- Yep of the barn- There's an art to that her best days are gonna be in Denver in January. Yeah. And they know how to feed every one of those animals. Yes. That's an art in itself. And so, yes- And so should you just show six-year-old cows. You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting. So it, it's, it is a, we are at a whole different level now that, um, you know, I, I look back- showing cattle when I was in my teenage years, and, and it seemed like either cattle were green or fat. Y- yeah, you had your, you know, great ones, but it was almost like they were either green or fat. And now you can hardly tell the difference because there's feed products, feed additives- Oh, yeah supplements, that if a guy has a little bit of knowledge, he can make a fat one look pretty fresh- Yeah and he can make a green one look a little bit further along than what it is, and with the right hair. And, and yeah, that's why I, I think you're very accurate in that depiction that, that i- we are at a different level in the show ring due to nutrition and, you know, hair and glue and all these products alone. So how, w- with that said, do you have a difficult time when a big, fancy, hairy one walks in, and then a, a slicker, um, animal comes in that you can tell actually more about, that's, that's really more complete, that doesn't have hair covering all the holes- Sure that just is a little slicker-hided? No, you, you know, I'm not gonna brag on myself and say, "Oh, yeah, I can read through all that," but you, you do have to, to maybe spend a little more time. If they all are exactly alike, then you- Right just kind of go in there and peg 'em out. But, and that was what we found at, at the Atlantic National last week. With this being a May show, a lot of those cattle probably got sheared out in March. Yeah. So they're not, they're not in that full-blown, "I've been in a cooler for 90 days," and grow. They're, they're waiting for Junior Nationals, which, which is still two months out. Right. And so you kind, and I enjoy that, you know, because down here in Georgia, it, I- that's maybe, to go back to an earlier question, another one of my pet peeves. Again, I have great appreciation for the art of hair. Yeah. But whenever I go to, say, these Junior Nationals, and I look at these cattle that look like they should be jumping off a trailer at the Cattlemen's Congress in January because of their hair coat- Yeah and it's the middle of July- I'm just like, "That, that doesn't, that doesn't do much for my heart." Right. That gives me heartburn, actually. Right. Because I know in Wadley, Georgia, that day it's probably about 102 degrees. Yep. And that animal's gonna be searching for an air-conditioned barn- Yeah instead of going out and just enjoying a shade tree. Right. And so that takes a little bit of the, the, the joy out of it for me. But, um, yeah, that's a, that's a little bit of a different, different look. Well, Joe and Corbin, you got any more questions? Well, if you guys don't have anything else, I have one more question I wanna ask, and, and it's kind of a fun one to end the, to end it. Um- So I imagine whenever you go to judge some of these shows, you get kinda nervous beforehand, yeah? I mean, like we talked about earlier, there's 150 people sitting there- Yep listening to your reasons. So do you get more nervous before you're going to judge a show, a- and it doesn't matter the size of the show, big, small, it doesn't matter, or before your production sale, getting up there- uh, in front of everybody? Which one's more nerve-wracking? I, I'm hoping I get a good paycheck from both of them. But I know one is gonna be much more significant. I wanna, I, I'll share this story with you now that I mentioned that. I'm not gonna give you any details, but I went to a show, my wife and I, we were just pretty, maybe a year or two married, so we didn't have kids. We drove probably eight hours to this show, uh, spent one night in a hotel that we paid for, and then they provided the second night hotel. Finished the show, and the two advisors, kind of the, the wives that were running this show said, "Okay, we're gonna go out to the car and get you your check." And the one looked at me and said, "What do you, how much do you want?" And, and I, I hate that question. I'm like, either- Oh just write me a check- $3,000 or- Leave it blank so jokingly, and, and again, this is an eight-hour trip, gas, one night hotel room that I paid for. I s- I looked at her and I said, "What do you think I'm worth?" And that's all I said. I even said it with a smile on my face. Oh. And she turned around and got her checkbook and handed me a check for $100. You were daft. That didn't cover the one tank of gas- No, you were daft or the hotel room. And I said, "What a..." We are, we are always to have an open heart and learn something every day, and that day I learned to never ask somebody- "What do you think I'm worth?" Maybe- Because they might just tell you. They might. You might wanna predetermine, predetermine what you're worth there- Yes, yeah if you're, if you're So you know, I, I think- But that's the problem with that I, I've been in every scenario. There's days I've had a production sale and I have been a nervous wreck- I hate it not knowing what cattle or, or, you know, whether there's 50 people out there or 200, what are they gonna want? And then there's been days I've stood up on the auction block and I, you know, I put a lot of my faith in the Lord, and I said, "Lord, this is your day." Yep. You know? It'll be what it'll be. And there's been cattle shows exactly the same way. I, I told a buddy of mine last week, I said, "You know what? I've not judged a pretty good size Angus show for several years. I'm a little bit nervous going into this. I know there's guys that are probably buddies of mine that are gonna be showing- There's gonna be guys that I consider friends but I haven't seen in probably 10 years, and then there's gonna be little kids that are eight years old that need my honest, approve- Yeah uh, opinion. And I said, "I've gotta balance all that out and try to make everybody happy with me at the end of the day," which never happens. But, um, so that, there's shows that can be a little nerve-wracking, and then there's shows that you go into and you got a good night's rest, and you know what? You're gonna go in there and do your most honest evaluation. And again, like I said earlier, if you can walk out of the ring at the end of the day with more integrity than you walked into it with, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Um, and, and one of the best things, I was just getting started judging, um, early 20s out of college, and I'll always remember my dad telling me right before one of the first big shows I judged, he said, "Just remember, you owe nothing to anyone." And it doesn't matter if it's the kid that you grew up showing with or the guy that bought cattle from you or, like I said, that, that six, seven, eight-year-old child that may be your friend's kids, everybody, everybody gets the same, the same look that day, so. Well, if, if you have- Level playing field if you have a friend that gets mad at you and don't talk to you anymore, he probably wasn't your friend to begin with. Yep. That's how I see it. Yep. Anyway. Kyle- All right do you have any questions for us? Yeah. Boy, sounds like an inter- Oh, man this sounds like an interview now. Yeah. I'm look- I am looking for a job, so. He likes picking up small square bales. Yeah, I love it. Uh-huh, yep. The ones that like this big. What, Joe, you asked, you asked me the question, you know, are, are we in a position to, to do something big? What is your opinion on that? Do, are, are we in a position where there can be something totally life-changing in the industry, or have we maxed out? This is where I get some days, uh, I believe we've maxed out so many different avenues. From EPDs to in vitro fertilization, to w- we've got such a broad spectrum of, in our industry right now, probably bigger than it ever has been. Um, are we in a position to do something big and great, or have we exhausted every, every possible avenue? I think that's an interesting question, 'cause I, I look at a couple traits that I think are of big, big importance to the industry that don't have as much value in the show ring. Um, and I would really like to see those addressed personally. Um, before I say that, I'll tell you though, I, I, I hope, um, I told Vince, I was texting him, find the timestamp of when you said it, I thought it was so brilliant. It's one of the best things I've ever heard on a cattle podcast, to be honest with you. We're gonna use it as the promo. But talking about trying to do things in one generation, um, because the most impactful bulls in the entire show population are straight up production two generations back. Yep. Most people don't think a GAR, a Gardner bull, is the sire of a bull that is one of the most impactful show bulls of all time. Most show cattle go back to him four, five, six times. Mm-hmm. Who's that? Um, Gridmaker. Well, they had to breed at some point. Through Bismarck, and- They had to breed at some point. E- exactly, and, and I think we are ripe for a little bit of a correction in teaching people the repercussions of hair. Yep. I do think hair is the biggest indicator of- It's so bad environmental fitness, of endocrine fitness, and we're trying to bend that curve, if you will, of cattle that can have hair so that we can balance them for a look that's pleasing and maybe, um, uh, to your point, the artistry, which I think is cool as well. Um, not gonna- Yep, it is cool. It is cool. It's cool. But I do think from an endocrine standpoint we've got some real issues. And I think performance, Kyle. Yeah. I think legitimate performance of those cattle and, and that's why I told you early on I've had to back off of some of these things. I was, I was pounding people for legitimately finished steers that weighed 1050. Mm-hmm. And I'm like... Or, or we see these ones with a four-foot head and an eight-foot tail coming in- that get kicked back for hard bones afterwards- Yep but the buckle's been awarded and so have the titles. I mean, I think that we really have to look those things squarely in the eye as an industry and be bold enough to identify those cattle. You didn't ask me, uh, the question I hoped you were asking, um, and I haven't even mastered it when I judge, but I hate watching that heifer calf get beat her whole life that I know is gonna win as the pair. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say that I would hope- And- that the industry would change into But it's hard to do, Corbin, because you're in a class where- It's not hard. Just start having bigger... Like, if, if we would just start, and I... It would have to start at the top. If we would have bigger shows that were more centered around lactating cows, it's pretty damn simple how we can change and make 'em more industry relevant, because these ones that won't breed and raise a calf and do everything right would just be thrown right out. But Corbin, you just made the comment she had to breed at some point. That's not true, because you were just talking about a virgin heifer getting IVF'd. They're gonna put that in a recip that's gonna raise it. Right. Well, absolutely. Then they're gonna flush that heifer- Yeah because she won some ribbons- Yeah. But- and do the same thing three or four generations yeah, but- That's crazy let's pretend, let's pretend like we're not doing that in the fricking purebred world. But that's crazy. And, and when you're given a class, you're given a class of heifers that are almost breeding age, and there's one that you're just like, "She's made real good, but she's half the size of everything else." Yeah. I mean, how do you- And then so- justify that? you place her- It's so difficult you place her last, and then- With a- the one that wins turns into a crappy cow because she's big and hard doing, and then that one that you placed third ends up being the best cow at six years old. And I think that that's where Kyle did a great job about the- Absolutely first third of this podcast in saying you give the nod to her and you say, "We understand this is what she is, but I'm given the charge today to evaluate this class." And, and I think a good person on the microphone can articulate those things. Yeah. I, I, I hate the comments of, you know, trying to articulate, you know, a lot of things in a six-month-old calf, that she's range ready and the kind of cow that's gonna raise one in the hills. That drives me bananas. But anyways- But- I've taken long enough on my question, Kyle. You better move on to another one with another host. No, I wanna... I'll, I'll end, I don't know that I have a question, but I'll end kind of going back to some of the things we talked about that, uh, uh, I use the term, and I got it from my dad, but good comes in all kinds. And I use that in the show ring because I- I'm, I'm one of many judges that wants to go in there and find- Whether it's your champion in reserve or all your division champions that look exactly alike. But yet I know well enough that this little cow prospect that's got a little more front end than what you want is gonna be the best one someday, and this big yearling is choke necked and well-fitted, so they don't really fit together. But, but that's when we gotta understand that good comes in all kinds, and, and in every aspect of our industry, not just the show ring. But we've also got judges with, as I said earlier, different opinions, and, um, I use this story because it, it ties to Vinny and probably one of the very first phone conversations I ever had with him. He, he calls me out of the blue one afternoon, and he says, "Kyle, as a judge, I need your opinion." And I, do you remember this? No, I'm scared. So your daughter was showing, I think, a bull- Yep at the Tennessee preview, something there in Tennessee. Probably. And there was a two-day show, so you had maybe junior show one- Yeah day open, the next, whatever, however it was. And you said, "Kyle, my daughter left a lot of room." Oh, I do remember this. Because she was, she was showing a bull, and so her mindset, "I need to leave a little bit of extra room because there's a heifer in front of me," in showmanship. Yep. The judge comes up to her and criticizes her and says, "Young lady, you need to pull your bull up a few steps to tighten up this ring." Yeah. The next day, your daughter took that judge's advice, pulled that bull up pretty close to the animal in front of her, and that new judge came up to her, and what did he say? Too, too close. "Young lady, you probably need to leave yourself a little bit more room- Yep between you and the animal in front of you." And you called me and said, "Kyle, which judge is right?" Well, I mean, how do you explain to your kid, "Oh-" That's exactly right. And what, the answer I told you was both judges were right, because unfortunately- You were a lot of help that, that was the judge that particular day. Right. But that, that's one of the hardest deals for young people to understand in this show world is, man, I can be on point one day, do everything right- Yeah and that judge never saw me, never gave me the, an ounce of... And then the next day your kid may, your heifer may be in heat. You may be doing everything wrong, but if you got that good, honest judge that's standing there and giving you time to- Right get collected, man, what a world of difference that can make. But that is the, one of the, the crappiest things about the show world is cattle can change from one day to the next. Showmen can change from one day to the next. But the most inevitable thing is, is that the judge is gonna change- Yeah from one day to the next. Yeah. And you're at the mercy of it. So it, uh, it, it's hard to put an evaluation on a livestock judge, because, I'll go back to my previous statement, good comes in all kinds. Yeah. Well- So it's interesting. I don't wanna, like, this is so damn good, and we were wrapping up, but- Do you think maybe age as a judge and experience and confidence allows you to not hold on to some things so tight? And the reason I say that is, is I feel like as a younger judge I woulda had those rules, like, "Damn it, you need to have that animal led up to where it needs to be," or, "You need to be so far away, but it's a bull." But experience shows you that you know what? You better not hold onto your one thing too tight, because it's a give and it's a take, and you have to judge the cattle and the scenarios that are brought you. Mm-hmm. And I, I think when we start talking about the value of livestock judging and young people being involved, that's been my trajectory in this business, is I've had to learn, yes, you have your ethics and your morals, yes, you have your breeding principles, like you said about making a cow, but boy, maybe don't hold onto everything so tight. Yeah. You know- I- Go I've, I've learned more just And I don't judge a lot. I mean, this, this summer I'll probably, between judging last Sunday and judging in July, I'll judge two shows this summer. So I'm not one of these guys that travels three, three weekends out of the month, uh, to judge. Um, but I learn every time I go out there, and I learn to be a little more patient, I learn to You know, sometimes we, we try to be time... There's a difference in being efficient and being timely. W- w- we, we wanna get this class done in 10 minutes, every class needs to be 10 minutes long. Well, no. Some classes- Right can be two minutes long, some classes it may take you 25 minutes because you are giving every individual one out there a, a justified look, um, to compete. But, but man, I've I don't know that I ever wanna say I feel- 100% confident when I leave a show 'cause there's always that one or two things, or three or four things you think you could have done different. But boy, the older I get, the more confidence I do get- Right when I leave that ring. And, and I think a lot of that, Joe, like you were saying, when you're young, you wanna impress. You want to, e- especially if you're doing a big show, you know you got those breeders out there, and those guys that are selling those $100,000 calves. And, and you, you- that can, that can get up in your head. And, and I don't, if, if a judge tells you that doesn't, I'll call bull crap on them because when you're young out of college and you start judging these shows, you probably know a little bit more than what you're supposed to, uh, about the cattle, about the people. And just through personal experience, I was one of those kids, but the older I get, uh, I always remember, just like I said earlier, my dad says, "You don't owe anybo- anything to anybody." And, um, it's, uh, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, there's a big learning curve in the, the judging world. You know, you just touched on something that I was, I was fixing to actually say. It's so frustrating. Um, we had gone to Dixie Nationals, and you know, the show starts at 7:00, so you gotta be there at freaking 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning to start getting everything ready. Mm-hmm. And, uh, my son, he was little. He was little, and I think that frustrated the judge, but he didn't even give him time to get set up the first time, and he had already picked everybody. Yeah. And, you know, as a parent who took your time to be with your kids and your family, and spent the money, I'm not saying that he should have changed his placement, but he should have given, I feel like he should have given the time to the kid that's been working with his animal- Mm-hmm to just at least give him a look. Now, with that said, I know rodeo's starting at 1:00, and they're probably rushing him. And also, I've never had to judge, so I get all that. But at, at the same time, I, I do think I can appreciate what you're saying about giving, taking the time with the kids, or, or with any of 'em. And as, and to go along with that, and we could, again, we can talk all night long, but if my dad were sitting here, i- in this interview, and you were to ask him that question you asked me about pet peeves, I can, I can probably assure you one of the top two or three things he would say, and it kinda goes along with what you were just saying, would be, and, and, and I'm not gonna- I- it's his pet peeve, I understand why some guys do it, and Joe, I've not seen you judge, so I don't know how you do it. But my dad's pet peeve is a judge that places last to first. And he says the reason being is, first off, when you're going, when you're learning to judge A good judging coach will tell you that you need to have the ideal animal in your mind and find the animals that come closest to that ideal animal. So if you're judging and you are using that same concept, that, that you're judging this show, you've got the ideal animal in your mind, why are you searching for the worst animal first? Right. So that's his first reason. The second reason it, it's a pet peeve is that if you start placing the be- first to last, when you get down, let's say there's 10 animals in that class and 10 showmen, and you've placed first through eighth. You've got ninth and 10th place standing out there. Both of those kids are battling to not be last place. You are giving one of those kids an option to out show the other and beat them that day versus that if you went in there as a judge at that show and the first thing you did was found the worst animal, you've given that child absolutely nothing- Right to compete for for the next 10 minutes- Yeah or however long that show's gonna take. And so again, I know some of the, the hype and the, the, the look that it gives when you, when you start placing last to first and you get those top two animals out there in the ring, and, and, and that's a, that's more of a sheep judge trend that started that in the cattle industry. Uh, but, but I kind of use that same philosophy that my dad did and I try to always start with the, the best ones out there and, and then if you have to go back and you kind of misread 'em, you can swap them in the end. But- Yeah but go out there and, and give every kid that opportunity to, to not be last that day, so. And I appreciated a, a judge that would go... We've been in some shows that they have gotten swapped and, and I appreciate that, you know? Yeah. Say, "Hey, I didn't s- I see something now I didn't see the first time," or whatever it may be. Sure. And, um, I, I can appreciate that as well. But, um- I think I appreciate, I appreciate a judge who takes control of the situation. So it's like you get to, you get to build the format of what you want. I mean- Yep um, maybe you wanna walk the top five. Maybe you- Yep wanna walk the middle three. Whatever you've gotta do to make it right by those kids and by those cattle, um, that's what I appreciate in watching and somebody- Yep I can follow along with. Sure. Right. Well, Corbin, you get anything else? Nope. Well, can I- No, I learned a, I learned a lot here though. I mean, being someone that's not really from that side of the industry- Well, you better get ready, Myla's gonna want to show. She can, she can show 'em at the bull sale. Oh, no, you'll do whatever Myla wants. Yeah, we're playing T-ball, buddy. Well- That's what we're doing take her to, take her to a cow show. That's okay too. And she'll- That's what I did be like, "I wanna do that." I love- You will find out it doesn't matter if you're hauling that heifer to a show or buying those baseball bats and softball bats, it is all an expensive- It's all expensive. It's all expensive. It's all expensive. Yeah. True. Yeah, it's all time-consuming too, and it's, and it's- Yeah um, that's one of the things I do love about the show industry, though, is that it's so oriented on the youth, and it's something that, um, if we can do anything to, to make it to where it's more relevant to, to what we do, then- Yeah we should do that. But- It, it's expensive, but you will never be able to put a value on it, that's for sure. So- Absolutely. You know, we, we joke around now, we used to go to quite a few shows, and now we're so busy. Nothing's changed. We're just as busy as we ever were, but somehow or another we have time to go to a cow show. I don't know how that happened. Yeah. Did you put those panels all the way up in that barn next to that dishwasher or washer and dryer every time? Those red panels? Yes. Yeah, you know how I did it? I don't... Probably got some big tractor for it, I assume I, I pulled the truck and trailer and stood on the roof of the trailer and just handed them right through the door. I pulled the truck and trailer right up to the building Oh, you put the panels on the top And I put the panels on the top, and when we got to the show, I'd, I'd unload. I would just stand them up longways. We'd build a pen, 'cause we... Instead of doing tie outs, we just did a pen where they'd be loose, and then when I want- when we were done, I'd stand the panels up, lean them against there. I'd climb up on the roof and pull them up. That's why they don't weigh nothing. They're... If a cow b- That's wild if a cow backed into one of them stupid things too hard, it'd fold it in half. I think, I think Amy's, um, washer and dryer dented one, and they're like 10 feet apart The washer and dryer's way heavier than those stupid panels are, I can tell you that. I guarantee it. Hey, I just wanted to say something though, 'cause we're wrapping up. Um, I've always wanted to do the show episode, and I don't think any podcasts that aren't a show kinda podcast have done the show episode. Uh, the show, the state of the show industry, and how it ties in and how it doesn't. And Kyle, I, I think you just did such a great job of exploring different corners of it, and I thank you for that, and I thank you for donating so much time to these kids 'cause I, I don't judge majors. I, I'm a small-time deal. Um, but I do know that typically travel exceeds whatever their budget is. Yeah. Um, and it's always in the middle of the week, so you've always gotta move whatever it is you're doing. And, um, thank you for doing that. And thank you- Yes, sir to anyone who's listened to this podcast that's agreed to judge a, a 12-steer show in the middle of nowhere or a major, or giving back to those kids. And, and every time I'm asked, usually my conscience gets the best of me and I say, "Well, some poor sucker did it for me when I was a kid, and I guess it's my turn," you know? So- thank you to all those people I've, I've gone, I've gone to a lot of shows, and, and my wife could vouch for this, that a- and anymore it's, it's so common that these shows have to get a judge months, maybe a year in advance. They're- Yeah they're trying to logistically put this thing together, and I understand that, but I tell people, "I don't know what I'm doing tomorrow a lot of days." Right. Me too. And so that commitment is, is pretty big, but there are so many times when I'll, I'll agree to judge. I get within two, three, four days of having to... Whether it's two hours down the road or across country, and I regret doing it. I, I'm like, "I've got too much to do at home," just like we were saying. We've got kids' sports. We've got our own- Yep cattle, and I regret doing it, and I don't know that I ever left that show with the same regret. Never. It's, "I'm glad I did it." Right. "I'm glad I took this time. I learned something. I got to, you know, meet somebody new. I got to see somebody I hadn't seen in 20..." Whatever the reason may be, it's a whole lot better to leave that Right state of mind than, than what you were in 24 hours before you were trying to pack up and, and go to it. And, and that's just, that's just that environment. It is such a neat environment. Yeah, there's bad people. Yeah, there's politics. Yeah, there's things that give it a crummy reputation sometimes, but as my wife always tells me daily, there's still a lot of good people in the world. Yeah. And there's a lot of good, lot of good livestock people especially. Yeah. If you, if you don't think you can find a good judge, you can always be one. Yep. I mean, be that person that you are. Be, be the person you wanna show under. Absolutely. And, and that's what I'd encourage a lot of people that are so routinely attacking judges that have never judged before. It's no different than an umpire, a basketball- Right referee. 100%. You go do it one time. Yeah. And that's all it's gonna take, is to see that from that perspective. Oh, yeah. So, you know. And gosh, they look easier to place from right outside those rings. You know, we were- They look a lot- just talking- Yeah about that the other day. Gosh. I can do it from outside the ring. But I tell you what, I was at the, when Amy and I were junior nationals, and I was on the Tennessee board, I was helping with, I think it was maybe the preview or something. I was just in there scooping poop. But just being in the ring with them, even though I was standing way out of the way, it's just different. It is. It's just different. Yeah. Especially when you're standing where the judge is standing. If I was gonna do it, I'd probably have to get outside the ring and watch, and then walk back in the ring and accept it. I would at least- You'd probably do better out on the wash rack, Danny. Let's be honest. Hey, probably would. Probably. Probably. Well, all right, guys. Uh, I guess we're gonna wrap it up. Kyle, thank you very much. I know you got heifers to breed, but thank you very much for taking the time to join us and, uh, and, uh, just shoot the breeze with us and chop it up. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. And, um- Thanks for having me. Yes, sir. And I guess take it away, Timmer. We'll catch y'all next time. We will see you next time around the shoot.