Beyond the Clinic: An Auburn Vet's Perspective

Hosts interview Dr. Jenna Stockler, an Auburn University food-animal internist and “pet livestock” veterinarian, about her path from West Virginia to Mississippi State, California dairies, and Auburn faculty. She explains how Auburn’s teaching hospital differs from private practice, the four-year DVM curriculum, student rotations, and annual class size (~130 with state allocations). Discussion covers the large-animal veterinarian shortage, including heavy student debt, lifestyle considerations, and rural loan-forgiveness and USDA support programs. Stockler describes Auburn as both primary care and referral hospital with 24/7 access, boarding, MRI/CT, and an Aqua-Cow flotation tank for down cows. They discuss unusual cases (kangaroos, giraffes, wildebeest), common cattle problems seen (feet issues like hairy heel warts, toe abscesses, screw claw; stifle injuries), emerging diseases like Theileria, screw worm prevention, and practical herd-health priorities such as vaccination, targeted parasite control, fecal testing, good nutrition, and early necropsy/diagnostics.

Transcript

0:00

All right. Welcome to Around the Chute. Um, here with Joe Fisher. Corbin is on hiatus at a Rangers ballgame, and we have another guest, Dr. Jenna Stockler from Auburn University. Um, Jenna, welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself Thank you guys for having me. Um, I am originally from West Virginia. I was born and raised there, and, um, did vet school at Mississippi State University. Um, and that's where I met my husband. Did a food animal internship there, and then we moved to the land of the dairy cows in California. We were there for about a year and a half, and California wasn't for us, so we moved to Auburn in 2014, and I had a child, stayed home with her for a little bit. Um, the other Dr. Stockler, uh, they like to call him here he Dr. Stockler and I'm she Dr. Stockler. Um, he, uh, got a job at Auburn, and then I got a job a year later. Um, I completed a residency here in internal medicine, um, and I joined faculty in 2021. But through all of my time I've been here for, um, this year is 11 years. Um, and so nowadays I call myself a pet livestock veterinarian. And, uh, some people chuckle at that, but, um, a lot of days I do work on pet livestock, and then, um, we still see production animals quite frequently. So Vince, I got to interrupt already. I mean, California, this is breaking news. Do- What practice were you working at, Dr. Stockler? So, um, my husband worked at the Tulare branch of UC Davis, and I, because I didn't have my California license yet, I worked on one of the dairies there. Um, I worked in their maternity pen- And there's a lot of work to get done down there and delivered calves, and yep, fed colostrum. And, um, after probably about the second week, I found a stick. Actually, I found a, a two by four is what I found, because I needed to be able to beat the Holsteins and the Jerseys- that wanted to attack me when I was taking the calf. So Yeah, I wouldn't let that paint the picture of what California is. Yes, it is. It is. So if you come back, you can come visit me. I- I'm actually- Yeah from Auburn as well. Uh, but Auburn, California. Auburn, California. Yep, yep. Yes, yes. So anyways, that's awesome to hear. That's cool, and cool that you were able to move back. Yeah, yeah. S- The South, uh, is maybe more our style than the West. So- You probably got looked at cross-eyed with your accent in California. It may be. I will say- may- that it may have s- I may have been told I talk too fast or- "Can you say that again?" Or something like that. So you mentioned Mississippi State. I mean, is this a dream since you were a little girl? Is this h- what was your path to becoming a vet? How did that look? Yeah, so I either, um, and my dad would tell this story if he were sitting beside of me. Um, so we had sheep, um, and just some commercial sheep and then show sheep. Um, and whenever one of them was having difficulty labor, he needed somebody that had a small arm, and so that was me. Um- and so that may have been one of the first times that I decided that, "Hey, I wanna be a veterinarian." Um, but as life went on, it was really either a veterinarian or a pediatrician, because I really enjoyed children. And then I got to a point that I was like, "I don't think that I am gonna do well at telling parents that there's something wrong with their child." And so, um, we, uh, chose the veterinarian route, and some days I would say it's maybe not any easier telling somebody there's something wrong with their animal. But, um, we do it and it's, it's done, and it's okay. Doc, what, are, are you strictly large animal or did you do some- Yeah small animal as well or Yeah, I, um, Mississippi State, so where I was trained, and very similar to Auburn, um, we at n- neither of those schools do what's called tracking, where you select one thing that you will go towards. And so, um, both of those schools or these schools, um, they, you do everything. You rotate through everything. You learn about all the species. You do all the things. And so I have only, um, as I've gone through vet school and then graduated, I have only done large animal. Um, and now I do all food animal, um, n- and camelids, no equine. Okay. Yeah. Hmm. You guys have a small animal school there as well that's separate, correct? Or do they, do the kids do both? They do both, yep. Do they? So we have the small and large animal teaching hospitals, and they rotate. They have 25 different rotations, um, and they rotate through both small and large. Nice. S- so explain to us the difference between a teaching hospital and a traditional industry h- vet hospital. I mean, I assume you're just vet hospital-ing, but you're probably a better teacher than a doer, or a little bit of both. Yeah, so that, that is a great question. Um, and I, w- one of the things that we often talk about is I'm just gonna be, you know, we'll have students say, "Well, I'm just gonna be a veterinarian," and we're like, "No, you're gonna be a great veterinarian." "You're gonna go out there and you're gonna be a general practitioner that does all of the things, um, from dogs and cats to rats to horses." Right. Um, and so what makes the teaching hospital maybe, I d- I don't want to say unique because that's not necessarily the case anymore, but, um, a teaching hospital typically has specialists that are associated with it. Um, but they're, uh, nowadays are a lot of specialty private practices as well, where, um, they have specialists within them, so surgeons, internist, ophthalmologist, um, let's see, people that look at skin, which are our dermatologists. So all of the different things that we even think about that we go for human medicine, um, we have those for veterinary medicine as well. Um, and now more and more there are specialty hospitals, and then there are still what are called, um, the private practitioners. Um, and they are out there, um, doing- As I said, um, and they are practicing veterinarians, so much like our, um, MDs that are, you know, in family medicine or they may have specialized in something else. Um, but I'll often say that, uh, you know, sometimes especially in my role as an internist, I'll get so focused on something where our general practitioners see the broader view and, and they'll be able to say, "Well, you missed this because you were down in the, the forest somewhere and you forgot about- the trees that are staring at you." So. So, so what stage of student are you normally providing education opportunities to? I'm, I'm guessing they've completed their undergrad. Is that correct? Or, and then what is the acceptance rate there and, and things of that nature? Yes. So, um, most of in the United States, most of the, um, and this is not worldwide, this is United States and Canada, um, you do undergrad and that could be either three or four years. Um, and then typically most veterinary programs that exist today are four years. Some of the newer models, um, so they're called distributive models, some of those are three years. Um, but majority of them are four. And, um, we, I would say there are some veterinarians that are teaching that are, um, trained in education. A lot of us don't necessarily have, like, an education degree. Um, we have typically a bachelor's, and then we have our DVM or there's other, um, forms of that depending on which school you went to. So there's a, um, there's a vete- veterinary medical doctor, I think is how it sta- is. I'm not 100% sure because I can't remember the exact way of the letters. Um, but we teach all four years in some capacity here at Auburn. So, um, the first year students see me in their second semester. Um, and then I won't... I'll see them again in third year. But there are some professors that are here that could see them every single year in some capacity. Um, and then my primary role now is, uh, clinics, and so I will see them a lot when they get to their fourth year, which is their clinical year. So we're talking, when, when you say first year, that's actually most of their fifth year in college, correct? Correct. Okay. Correct. And so, uh, how many students do you enroll annually into the vet program at Auburn? Yep. So right now we have 130 veterinarians. Um, 40 some of those are from Alabama. Um, 40-ish some of those are from Kentucky, um, because we still have the agreement with Kentucky. And then, um, there are another, I guess that would make 50 at large. And so my, my numbers might not be 100% correct, but I think there are a few more Alabama students than what I just said there. But, um, it's somewhere around that 40 to 50, and then that kind of distribution. Are you, going back to what you just said a minute ago about seeing the kids in the second semester, do you teach some in the classroom, or are you just hands-on in the clinic? Or b- Yeah or just a variety? So great question. The first through third years are, um, all lecture and lab-based. And so, um, all in the classroom typically, and then there are laboratories that go with some of the classes, not all of them. Um, and so lectures, they have anywhere from six to eight-hour days of, of lecture and lab, um, just depending on the semester. I gotcha. Yeah. So Jen, I'll, I'll drop the bombshell, the one I've been thinking about since we, we- wanted to have you. Um, I get to be on one of the Large Animal Health Advisory Task Force here in California, and it seems like we're always talking about this crisis in large animal veterinarians. And to tie all this together, just this last week I was at Texas Tech with my son, who's an animal science industry path student, where, I don't know, they, they must have admitted 4 or 5, may- maybe 600 animal science students. I would say that the industry portion probably makes up 10 to 15%. The rest are all on a pre-vet track. And they t- S- so we see a huge amount of interest, we see a tiny amount of vet school acceptance, and then when we're talking to the counselors, we see five chemistry classes. All of them are dropout classes. How do we solve this riddle? Because it seems like we have demand and we have interest, but we aren't able to connect the two Yeah, and I think that is, um, that's kind of an ever-evolving question, I would say. Um, I think that, you know, and, and as you guys kind of alluded to, everybody takes their own words and kind- or takes your words and kind of spins them. Um, I think that it does, those classes are important, so that chemistry class, that physics class, and it's kinda like, "Why is that stuff important?" You know, how d- how do we put that in veterinary medicine? And a lot of it is, you know, and I didn't appreciate this when I was like, "Why do I have to have this crap?" Because that's what I wanted to This crap that I have to take. Um, but physics, when you talk about x-rays and the radiograph and really looking at those, that physics comes into play with, uh, with how that beam goes through the animal and makes the picture. And then, um, there are the chemistry side of it. It's you've gotta understand those chemical reactions with drugs, um, because not all drugs play equal. And, um, and so it, you have to be able to kinda tie all that together, and it, it does matter in the long run. And then I think the demand and the crisis, um, and, uh, I really thought your question was gonna go this route, but it didn't. Um, you know, it's- It's you can go anywhere in this country and provide veterinary medicine. That, you know, you can go to rural America, you can go to big city, and you can provide veterinary medicine. And what we hear, um, in academia certainly is a little bit different, but these students, because of the cost of education, because of all of that, these students are coming out of veterinary school, some of them with greater than $250,000 in debt. And if we compare that to the human medical field, the, the debt and the income don't jive. And so, you know, every- there, there's everybody's opinion that wants to say, "Well, you know, veterinarians are expensive." Well, times have changed- from the 1980s and 1970s and, you know, animals cost more. We learn new things. You know, we, uh, we either learn or we're back living in 1960. And so, um, I think some of it is that, you know, you have that cost and, and what people once knew and, and it's just you- that we gotta be able to pay the bills just like anybody. Right. And so, um, that's where it gets a little bit, money gets a little bit hard for people to talk about, but at the end of the day, um, you gotta pay the veterinarian what they're worth. And, and I think that's what people, they tend to go towards small animal because, you know, small animal practitioner maybe has, um- You know, they may have less days that they work, but they may make more. And that's not always the case. There are small animal practitioners out there that are working seven days a week. Um, and so, but it, the lifestyle can be a little bit different. Um, and, and so it's maybe it's less on the body too, where you're not dealing with a rogue horse or a rogue cow or whatever it be, so. But I don't think that- There's a lot of nuances Yeah, and I don't think that you're necessarily speaking to dogs and cats. I can read between the lines. I mean, this is all even recreational livestock, livestock that has a value that is beyond what their commercial production value is because, you know, if you, if you have a vet bill that exceeds what that animal is worth in either emotional value or actual physical value, that's when people choose to use veterinary services or not. And I think in the livestock production side, that's where we're really at a disadvantage is because those animals have a, a, a dollar figure value, and once it's been exceeded, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense- Right to go beyond that. And, um, what I think is interesting though, and maybe you could speak to this, I don't know if it's a nationwide program, I think it is, but I heard wind, uh, this would've been three weeks ago, maybe it's just a California program, about specifically rural veterinarians going into large animal practice and loan forgiveness programs. Have you heard anything about those or, or been a part of any of those opportunities? Yeah, so, um, I, I know about them. Um, I've written recommendation letters for previous students that are now veterinarians. Um, they're dependent typically by the county and the state. Um, so it's not necessarily every county. Um, and I... It is based on population and it is based on, um, I think the demographics of that area as well. Um, so it's not every county in every state. It is select ones that have been identified, um, that could use a veterinarian. Um, and it is a three-year program and it's $75,000, um, for each of the three years and then you can re- apply again, um- Oh, wow as far as... Yeah, you can apply again, um, and get more, um, loan forgiveness, um, as long as the need still exists in that area and, um, and then of course you have somebody to write you letters and all of that. But, um, yeah, it's, it's a great program and there have definitely, um, been a lot of even my former students and even some of my classmates that were able to benefit from it. Um, and there are actually a lot of other programs that the USDA has, um, that w- help rural veterinarians. So it's not just that loan forgiveness program but, um, it's also you can apply for grants that allow you to get equipment or other things that the practice may need, um- Oh, wow that could serve the area. You, that's, that's pretty awesome honestly that they're doing that, um, and that they, they realize that there's actually a need for it to be honest and they're stepping up and trying to help. You were making mention about kids doing the s- the small and the large rotation and then you, you also made mention that, you know, they got a lotta debt so they kinda tend to lean a little bit more towards the small animal. Do you have a lotta kids that come in there and they're like, "Yeah, big animals just not for me," or vice versa? You know, they come in there with the bi- with the large animals, they're like, "God, I hate dogs and cats." Yeah. Um, I would say it's probably, um, it's, it's definitely mixed in kind of w- how they enter veterinary school- Mm-hmm and then when they leave veterinary school. Yes. Um- That's kinda what I was getting at. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and I would say that all of us that are here, um, we just, we try to provide the best education to them that we can. Um, and we tell them that they are an Auburn veterinarian, um, or, you know, and certainly that should be across the board wherever you are. Um, Auburn veterinarian and you can do anything. And, um, there are some students that come in and they're have been small animal, exotic, and they come to the food animal rotation and they lay their hand on the goat or they, you know, do some work with this, we'll say, uh, pet livestock rather, not our production livestock. Um, but they're like, "I could see this. I could do this in practice. I could see the goat. I could see the pig. I could get something stabilized enough to, you know, refer it somewhere." Um, and so you do see that transition that will happen. Um, and I, you know, several of my former students, they are out there being amazing veterinarians and, and they see all kinds of animals from small to exotic to even the pet livestock. And so whenever I see that, I'm just like, "You know what? That's one maybe less goat that I have to see." Because they are able to see it because we trained them well enough for that. Do you s- do you think there are enough young kids entering the veterinary program or have you seen a decline? I don't think I understand the question Like, do you see enough kids wanting to be, not necessarily, I guess large animals more where I'm leaning towards. Do you see enough kids coming in being interested? Because it just seems like it's just been declining over the few years, um, as far as being able to find a good vet, and I think a lot of it does play into the debt and all that. But, um, do you think there are enough kids coming in that actually wanna do it to possibly go on and supply all the demand that's out there? Yeah, and I think, I do, I do think there are. I think they are there. I think they are capable. I think sometimes what happens, and this is not just in food animal, this is across every sector of veterinary medicine because ultimately even if it's a cat bite, if it's a, you know, a cow kicks you in the knee, it, it really doesn't, the dog bits you, whatever, any of those things could put you out for any number of weeks, right? Right. Um, and so I think there's always a risk, especially when you think about large animal. There's also, um, the other side to that is as, I would say, as a population, um, it's the fear of they don't know maybe how to treat them because we have gone more from rural to suburban to, you know, big city, and that's just how things are right now. Right. And it's not that, um, the opportunities weren't there, but, um, it's not like even when I was a kid, when you guys were kids or, and, and some of it depends on how you were r- raised and where you were raised. Um, if, you know, maybe you only ever saw the cow or the goat at the petting zoo- Right and you didn't have them in your backyard. And, and so I think that, um, some of it is the fear of I don't know what I'm doing, or I don't understand all the intricacies that come with that thing that, uh, has a big old rumen and what it's, does every day. Um, but I think that the other side to that, even for me as I sit and think about the dog and the cat, I'm like, "Boy, I'd have to go back and really just hit the books hard if I transition to be a small animal veterinarian because it's like I lost it." So I think the ability is there. Um, it's just some of it is the fear of the unknown, I think. Right. Hmm. So for a young person that's listening and just heard the doom and gloom of not getting paid- you know, you have 200,000 in debt and somebody's gonna pay you $35 and a pork chop and an onion, right, and not even give you oil to cook it with, and- Yeah you just did $1,000 worth of work on their, you know, pet turkey. Yeah. What are the rewarding things about being a veterinarian? Yeah, that- I'm sure it's different for everyone, but what are they for you? For sure. For sure. So currently in my role, I would say, um- And it's definitely gonna be different for every single person that you talk to. But for me, currently where I am, um, it's the ability to teach the students. Um, it is, that's what keeps me going to work every day, is, uh, the ability to teach the next generation of, of veterinarians whether I'm doing a good job or not. Who knows? But, uh, hopefully most days we, uh, we are doing a good job. Um, and then I think it is you as a veterinarian develop relationships with the people that you work with. Um, and I think some of those relationships turn into friendships, and it gives you the ability to call them and say, "Hey, I need your help with this. Um, and let me run this by you." Um, and I think that the days that we have wins, because it's not all rainbows and butterflies in veterinary medicine. It is not. Uh, especially in my world, some days it's a lot of euthanasia and it can take its toll. But, um, the wins that are the really cool wins that you get to see and you get to, you know, some of these animals that, um- You get to watch, go do something. Like, we see some bucking bulls, and you get to go watch and see that bucking bull or see Vince's cow back on the pasture out there just living her best life. And, um, you know, to see the kid that's showing the goat or the sheep that you, you might have delivered or you repaired something that was wrong with him, and, you know, just those little things, um, I think keep me going every day. And so it's just, it's being able to, to teach the students and then have the wins because on the long days, the long days can be kinda terrible. I would say. Yeah, you answered that differently- So- than I thought you would, but I think that's what's great actually. What I'm, what I'm getting out of this interview is as a vet, you could be super specialized. You could be a repro vet. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You could be a, a surgeon. You could be an, a bone specialist. You could be dogs and cats. You could be cattle. You could float teeth. You could do all this stuff. Yep. Or you can have an extremely varied day. If you like variety, you're gonna get to see variety, and, and I think that's what I... I use two veterinarians, one for each county, and now that I'm thinking through the things you are telling me, that's why they deal with some of the recreational livestock. That's why one has dental March, that she does dental work on horses, is because they're probably padding their income because their passion is large animal. Their passion is the cow deal. Mm. And they know they can't charge me thousands and thousands of dollars 'cause it doesn't fit. And so I think it's really intriguing how you brought up, I mean, I don't know you, but I don't think you'd get the same satisfaction out of teaching history. But you have a passion- You have a passion for veterinary science, and you're talented, and you wanna share that passion with people under you, which I think is, is absolutely wonderful Yeah. Yeah, I would not be a good history teacher, let me say that. I would not. What are... So if, if a person wanted to bring an animal to Auburn University, do they have to be referred, or can they just pick up the phone and say, "Hey, I need to c- bring this goat in there because it's got three heads, and I want you guys to take one of 'em off"? Yeah. No, we are both a primary care and a tertiary referral hospital. Okay. Um, and so you could call tomorrow, and we're open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Um, and you could call tomorrow and say, "I have three lame cows, and I need them all evaluated in some form or fashion," and, and we would do it. We would... Typically, we can, um, get you in that week. Um, but a lot of times it might be a week out that we have to book you. Yeah. Um, but yeah, we see, we see it all. What are some s- special things that Auburn can do- Or a vet hospital like you all can do that your normal day-to-day vet can't. Like, I know, don't you have, like, a big MRI machine or something for horses maybe? We do. We, um, we have both MRI and CT, um, and we are actually getting, um, another CT for large animals just because we have seen an increased demand for that, and, you know, not every CT is able to do, you know, what, what you need it to do. But, um, but there are some private practices that have a CT machine. Oh, really? Um, and so, yeah. Yeah, there are some that have, um, a lot of similar capabilities. Um, and veterinarians are out there, you know, they are doing surgery, and so you don't have to be a, uh, you don't have to have gone through a residency to be able to do surgery. Um, there are some veterinarians that are very comfortable in doing all different types of surgery and, and I think that's super cool because I, I don't actually love surgery. I like the surgeries I like, and those are the ones that I wanna do, and then, um, I am, with bones, I'm like, I don't, I don't wanna do any bone surgery. Um, but the, uh, yeah, the, the specialty hospitals, they, they typically have, like, the specialist there. Um, but again, it's not that the private practitioner can't do all of those things. Um, and when we think about the teaching hospitals I'll call them or, you know, referral hospitals, um, it might just be a different set of eyes that the private practitioner has maybe exhausted everything that they know to do- Right and they just need a different set of eyes on it. Um, you know, whether that be another veterinarian or whether that be somebody at a specialty, uh, referral hospital or even a teaching hospital. So I think you touched on one of them, but, um, do you guys offer housing too? Yes. Um- You said that with a long sigh. Is that because Vince overstays his welcome- Listen and he's like- "Hey, this cow's gonna be here three days," and he picks her up. Like, you're like, "Hey, that's that guy that says he pays net due 30, but we may as well put net due 60 on the bill." Um, so that, it brings up a really great point, um, because it's- it's a hospital, right? So it's just like when you and I go to the hospital, you don't wanna be there for any longer than you have to be. Right. Because you really have no idea what diseases or other things that, you know, you could be exposed to. Um, but yeah, we, we typically, um, try to limit the boarding, I will call it. Um, typically try to limit that just because it is a hospital, and sometimes some of those animals come in there and they are sick. Sick. So I guess my follow-up would be, like, for some of our really, really small producers that might have really shaky-jake facilities and that animal needs care on a multiple, uh, interval, it, it might be- Mm-hmm the better option to send her to Auburn or send him- Yeah to Auburn than it would be having your general veterinarian at home who usually could come and give a one-time treatment. If you have really nice facilities like, like Vince and I would have, we could probably handle- Mm-hmm multiple treatments. But some folks, they just can't, and so take her- Right to Auburn is probably a better choice. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, we have, we have care, and they, um... And that's, that's kind of another unique thing about here is that our students along with a technician, um, and so we have a technician during the week, um, and then students and residents and clinicians on the weekend, um, provide care, um, to the animals that are in the barn. So somebody is looking at them in a capacity- Minimum every thr- uh, three hours, but there are some cases where we're looking at these animals every hour, um, especially during the week where we're busy running through the barns, seeing new animals, admitting new animals, you know, doing some of the outpatient work, like foot trims and, and things like that. You know, we're s- we're laying our eyes on these animals every hour. They probably don't rest either, much like a human hospital. But, um, yeah, so the care, I would say, is exceptional. And then they will, what they will do, Joe, is when they're caring for your animal, they will feed it alfalfa and then complain to you about your animal being overweight when you only give it a flake of grass hay a day, and they're giving it two, two to four flakes of alfalfa a day, and, and then they make you feel guilty that your animal's overweight. Well, you should feel guilty 'cause it's probably like- No. It, it... Wait a minute. I gotta ask Dr. Stockler,. Is this like when my wife gave birth though, and you start looking at the bill and it's like Irish Spring soap, $672? Like, a towel to take a shower, $954. Mm. I mean, so was this ba- a bale of hay for Vince's Isabelle cow? Was this like, you know, a $30,000 bale of hay? Yeah. No, um, so we, we actually have, uh, what's called a hospitalization fee. Um, and we have a care level fee. And so the hospitalization fee is our boarding, such that it provides, uh, sh- shavings in the stalls, um, as well as hay, grain, um, any mineral, um, while they're hospitalized. And the care level is, um... And then that hospitalization of course allows us to pay for that, um, those things. And then it also allows for, you know, if we need to repair stalls or if we need to put new floors in the, in the stalls, because all of our floors have rubber mats in them. Um, or all of our stalls have rubber mats in them, um, such that the animals aren't on concrete. And then we have a care level which if you're just there boarding, um, then you are at a very basic level, which is like $2.80. Um, and that can go all the way up to, I think it's about $50, and that is the animal, let's just say, that's in the Aqua-Cow. Um, so where we, if it's a down animal and we float 'em in the float tank, that's what the Aqua-Cow is. Um, you guys probably know that, but where it's a float tank, uh, where you put 'em in the water. And- No, no, we don't know that Yeah, we don't know anything about that you expanded upon that. That's awesome. That's, that's platinum care level right there. That- That is. That, that is platinum. So, um, that's, uh, the care level five, and it's about $50 additional on top of the hospitalization fee. Um, so. Is it like a hot tub? What, I mean, what's going on in this? It is, um... Yep, so that is a great question. It is, um, it's a big, it essentially looks like one of those big dunk tanks, um, if you will. Uh, it's, most of them are a triangle shape, and they have doors. Well, they're not really doors, but I guess they're the locking mechanism that keeps the water in, um, on either end. Um, and they have a sled that you put the cows on, and then you winch them into the, the, um, Aqua-Cow. Um, and then you put the doors on, and then you fill it up with water. That's awesome Yeah, and so if you have a down cow, um, or something that is a post-calving, um, that you think you have some nerve damage, um, you can just put 'em in that thing, fill it with water, and most of the time we'll leave them in there, um... Sometimes we'll leave them in there for up to 48 hours. It really just depends- Oh, wow on how s- how stable they are. Um, and then we'll drain all the water out, and we cross our fingers and hope that they can walk out of the Aquacow. Um- That's wa- that's way better than a front-end loader, just picking 'em up. Well, that's what I was gonna say. Obviously you guys have found that the success rate on that is higher than the, the, I don't even know what they're called, but those things that go around their hips I've seen before. The hip hose. Hip hose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, those are better than a rope or a toe strap lifting a cow, I know that. But this Aquacow thing, that sounds incredible. Yeah. That is pretty awesome. And yeah, there is, um, in Canada, um, or I think it's in Canada, it's e- either in Canada or Wisconsin, what it... One, in probably Wisconsin too, but, um, big dairy country, they have multiple that they will set up at their hospital if, because of course a lot of the dairy cows, um, they just need that float if they slip and fall or, you know, if they had a dystocia or something like that. Um, and then they can just line it up and put the cows in it. Yeah, so it's, it's very nice. It just gives... And also the water therapy too helps to kind of decrease some of that inflammation and all of, if, you know, if the limbs are angry or if the nerves are angry, it can help just... Water therapy is a good thing too. So, um- So do you do different temperatures for different things? Like if you have some inflammation, do you use a cooler water than a, a, say, warm water for stiffer joints or things like that, or no? Yeah, so at least here, um, if it is winter, we try to... Obviously, you know, we don't necessarily have an endless supply of hot water, so we try to- Right fill it with the hottest water we can, and then we'll dump buckets in there, um, of hot water just to be able to, you know, not freeze the animal essentially. Um, and then, um, during the summer we'll just fill it with cool water just because at least initially anyway, um, you know, cool is okay. And then of course if you would try to, you know, certainly the water temperature does matter, but, um, that's not necessarily something that has really been looked at to, as a success or failure. Right. I gotcha. So Dr. Stockler, um, I'm always amazed in this business how whenever I think I've seen it all- something new pops up. I'm like, "I didn't think you'd try to die doing that." Yeah. What's the most unusual annual animal emergency you guys have had delivered to you? Yeah. Um, so I've, I've talked a little bit about exotics. Um, I can say that, um, I never thought I would work on kangaroos. Um, and- That's awesome. We, we have some, we have some owners in Alabama that have kangaroos. Um, and I jokingly tell people, I'm like, "If your kangaroo is ill and I'm on hospital, you probably don't wanna see me because it may not turn out well." Um, it, it typically has not. But, um, kangaroos, uh, we have also seen, um, some giraffes. Um, and I'm trying to, um, we've castrated a wildebeest. Um- Let's see Like, are you talking about a giraffe from the zoo or like somebody has a dadgum giraffe? Yeah, so these are typically owned, um... There are people that have giraffes, yes. Um, yes, yes, yes. And then, um, the, we, we do- There are people- Wait, I can't believe you're still trying to find something else to say. Yeah, I mean- Like, can we just take this in for a second? Because I'm still back at kangaroo and trying to say, well, there's students there, so I'm guessing you make the kangaroos wear gloves. There's no way you'd let them come in bare-knuckle to a college. I, I will tell you that these, the, uh, again, the ones that I have seen, they're pretty sick. Um- Yeah, right so they, uh... We have had a couple. We actually did have one that, uh, I asked the owner, I said, "Was he gonna, like, box me?" And he said, "Well, he might." And, but we, we, we got him contained and we got the blood from him that we needed, and he went back home. Um, and- So how do you, how do you treat those? Because your wildebeest, I'm like, "Okay, cool, you treat it like a cow." Mm-hmm. Your giraffe, you probably a cross between a camelid and a cow. You guys have figured that out. A kangaroo- That's the animal- Do you treat them like a hog or a, a cow or a, I mean, h- where do you start? Well, and that, that's the cool thing about veterinary medicine too, is that they're, somebody knows somebody else. Um, it's probably very similar to the cattle industry in a lot of ways. You know, somebody knows somebody, and if, if they don't, Vince knows them, right? No, I don't know anybody. Or you, or, or you know them. Um, and so whenever we have them come in, um, there are some great zoo veterinarians that are out there that have worked on these animals. And you learn that, and you, you have their contact information. And then of course, the other side to that is when you see them enough, then you just start making notes. And you start, like, "Okay, I know we can do this, this, this, and this, and it won't kill them, and hopefully it helps." Exactly. Hopefully it helps, and what they have might kill them faster than, you know, the things that I'm doing. So somebody that has a kangaroo or a, a giraffe or whatever, do they just come straight to y'all or do they actually have a veterinarian that d- usually deals with them on a daily basis? I would say it is dependent on where you live. Okay. Yeah. It's, it is some of the wildlife safari parks, um, the zoos, most of the zoos have their own veterinarian. The wild- the safari parks, it's variable. Um, and, and they've learned over time, you know, what they can handle and what they can't. Yeah, I almost start thinking, like, it might be cheaper to have a specialized veterinarian on site than the equipment to safely move one of these critters to the vet. I was just thinking about hauling a giraffe down the road. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, different deal. Wow. Well, that's incredible. Yeah. So let's shift gears back to cattle. Um, and, and you guys, I mean, being a teaching hospital, I, I think a lot of us have an idea of a lot of your issues are probably calving, I assume, or post-calving, um, or some sort of injury, but what are the biggest health challenges you're seeing in cattle right now at Auburn? Um, we see a lot of feet. We see- Ooh a lot of feet. Um- How many of them are disease and how many of them are genetic when they should have just like... I'm not, that's as far as I'm gonna go with that. It's legit, though. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. We see a lot of, um, we see hairy hill wart and I th- Okay think, um, people get bogged down on that, because if you go back in time, um, it, you know, people wanna blame the dairy. And I think I've just gotten out of the, I've just let it go and I'm like, "Well, some of it we've bought." Um, so some of that, depending on where you are, you've, you've bought the hairy hill wart and you've brought it in, uh, whether there were dairy cows in the past or not. Um, I would say we don't see a lot of foot rot, because most of the time our producers have given it something. Um- Mm-hmm that, you know, that something is going to be variable. Uh, Nuflor, Draxxin, LA-200, whatever it be. Um, so we don't see a lot of just primary foot rot. Um, from time to time, yeah, but not really. Um, we see quite a few of toe abscesses and just abscesses in general that have led to, um, double soles just because, um, that abscess is gonna track, much like if, you know, the, the, the cows try to heal everything. So, um, we see a lot of that. And we see a lot of stifle injuries as well, um, whether that be in the bull, uh, primarily in the bulls, but, um, some in cows from time to time. Um, and then we see, you know, some of those other, whether we wanna call them heritable or not, but our OCD lesions or, um, where we've got big hocks on these cows or big hocks on these fast-growing animals, whether it be heifers or bulls. Uh, uh, typically we see it in the bulls, uh, primarily. Um, and so we've seen some disasters with that. And then of course, I think maybe what you were alluding to was the screw claw, um, and or the post-leggedness, um, of, of some of these animals. But we see, we see cri- quite a bit of screw claw, um, and then all of the things that happen because of that disaster. Any other disease type stuff? Like top of the mind right now is the Theileria stuff in the southeast- Right and how it's migrating west. I mean, are you guys- Yep seeing stuff at Auburn or is that mostly handled out in the field? Yeah. So we, um, we do see some of it and- How we learned that we had some positive animals in Alabama, um, was that they did, um, they just did sample collections from the blood that we had submitted to our clinical pathology lab. So it would be something similar could happen even in the human hospital. If they drew your blood, they could test it for things, um, and you wouldn't be charged for it. Um, and, and so that's what we did here and how we isolated, um, some of the positives in Alabama. And many of them did not have acute, um, bleeding. Uh, they presented for different reasons here. Um, but the biggest thing with all of them that I have seen is that they have really big pre-scapular lymph nodes. So those lymph nodes that are sitting right in front of the shoulders, um, they are really large. Um, and so we didn't, at least here, we didn't identify the tick, um, until earlier this year. And, um, I will say I often tell producers that there are diseases that I would choose to live with. Um, and there are some diseases that I wouldn't. And so I wouldn't, personally, I wouldn't live with Johne's disease. Um, now that is me personally, um, and there are some people that have chosen to live with it. I think as things are evolving and maybe if what we've learned from those animals in Virginia and Tennessee, or not Tennessee, North Carolina, um, it may be better to have Theileria-positive cattle than negatives, um, just because, you know, it's seemingly that whatever we're doing, these ticks don't necessarily care, um, anyway. And if there is some immunity to this, um, protozoa, then hopefully the cattle can handle it and, you know, we can move on. Um, you know, I, I don't know that I love to say that about blood-borne diseases, um, just because they do have some pretty terrible implications. Um, but I think that they're also causing some pretty big losses, too. Um, I was talking to somebody last week, and it seems like that if you're a BBD positive and you are a Theileria positive, that you are not doing well at the feedlot. Um, so kind of like Joe alluded to it- Kinda like those dropping dead and guess the question would be did they drop dead because of that or was it something else? Right. Right. I know it's a, it's a thing. There was a guy in the county north of us that had hauled in some cattle from Virginia and he, he had a bunch of them and man, he's got everybody around here scared to death. Um, the good news is Tennessee, with their tobacco money, I don't have to pay for those tests. So we- Mm-hmm we test our whole herd and been so far, knock on wood, we're in good shape. But man, it's, it's coming for... I think it's coming for everybody. I'm like you, I think you just gotta learn to live with it. Um, I've talked to- Yeah people in Virginia when I heard about it in Columbia. I talked to some people in Virginia that have had it for years and they're like, "You just don't worry about it. You just move on." Right. Yep. And that is, um, that is very true. Um, I think the, the hard part with that one is that currently there's no effective treatment. Right. Um, whereas with anaplasma, at least we have, you know, those antibiotics to reach for. Um, whereas Theileria, it's just kind of like, well, it affects the calves, it affects the cows. Unlike anaplasma, you know, the, the calves at least tend to have a little bit of immunity, um, with anaplasma, and we don't see disease until later in life. Um, but this Theileria just kills everybody- Right if they've never seen it before it seems. Well, some, um, there's a, a vet up here, um, Dr. Martin, he, uh, he was the one that actually found it in Columbia, and he was- Okay he was telling me that, um, you know, it, it's kind of one of those deals where if they're stressed, uh, he was- Yeah he was seeing a lot of it in a feedlot situation. But like- Mm-hmm in a cow-calf deal where they're not stressed quite as hard, um, it seems like it's not as big of a problem. You lose... He, he kind of talked like you might lose four or five head out the gate, and then I guess air quotes, "You get herd immunity" to an extent. Right. And then, um, he said he's just not seeing the, the problems with it. If you have good health, if you have good feed, if they have got plenty of grass and fresh water and blah, blah, blah- Mm-hmm uh, he's, he's not seeing as much of an issue as than when they're in a stressful situation, so. With all that said, it may not matter And I know why people do it. I kn- I understand, but I do think it's one of those at least should be a yellow flag about sourcing cattle too far from your home. Um, you know, back in the old days, that's... And that's one of my favorite books is Lasseter's book talking about buying f- from people who are close to you, who are developing genes unique to thrive in your area and, and we put wheels on these cattle so much anymore. I mean, it's very normal for people in California to go four or five hours to summer pasture, and who knows what was in those pots. And, and they're usually clean, but who knows what was in those pots three days before or 12 hours before, and then what diseases those folks may have kind of regionally that you don't have or, or management strategies or whatever. So I guess wanna throw that out to our listeners. You know, I mean, this podcast has made Vince and I, uh, and Corbin well-known kind of all over the place and, uh, and I think that it just calls to mind a question to ask about management, about things you're familiar with, things you're not. I know that those are the questions that, that I ask and Vince asks to me before he got a bull from me too, by the way. So, um, with that, you know, I, I think... Are, are there any Are there any preventative measures? Because, I mean, it sounds like the naive producer is the one that's gonna get whacked the hardest, and we're all naive until we get it. So- I mean, you choose to live with Theileria once you got it, but if you, or- Right or Pilerii, I think I'm saying it incorrectly. B- I say it wrong too. It's fine. You s- you say it wrong too. It doesn't matter. Okay. Don't mind. That really, really bad tick one that's not anaplas and it's not EBV or EBA- Right the foothill abortion in California. So that one- Right if you don't have it yet, what do you say to do to producers? And if you do have it, what do you say to do to producers? Yeah, and that's, I think you've brought up some really great points, and I was at a CE, um, last week, and it was all women veterinarians, but it was the resounding, you know, you, you... I would rather see Vince's fat cow, I'm not gonna call her fat. I would rather see- the well-fed, well taken care of than see the ones that are a body condition, the beef side of things, a body condition of one at a year of age, and they're about 150 pounds. And, and we see that from time to time. Um, and another, uh, thing that I saw today with your question is that we shouldn't stop doing the things that we've been doing that have worked, right? So the fly control, the, the tick control, the things that, um, have helped us mitigate disease for how many ever years we've been doing it. The one thing that I will say, and we get pushback on this from time to time, but when we talk about blood-borne diseases, um, and blood feeding, sometimes we are our worst enemy Because especially with anaplasma, um, you know, if, if I use the same needle in that cow that, you know, and, and now I've... my first injection went into the hot positive anaplasma cow, and now I've taken it to the next nine potentially. Um, and so needles aren't expensive, and it takes about five seconds. And so if you have a good group of people that are running that chute for you, um, and they, they... You can train somebody to change a needle. Um, and so, uh, you know, you don't have to change the syringe unless you get blood in it, but if you change that needle, um, that, that can help with a lot of things. But I don't, you know, and I think that the FDA is recently, you know, they've come out with ways to protect, at least to try to protect the industry as a whole from the screw worm situation. Um, and so I don't think that we stop doing the things that we've always done to m- to help these animals live. So the screw worm's a great segue- Yeah because there's one that, boy, it's been politicized. It's been... Let's take the politics out of it and just- Mm-hmm look at that particular- Yep disease or- Yep pathogen. I don't know what you would call it. Pest, I guess. Yeah. Um, are you confident in the protocols and tools that we have? Yeah, and so there's a lot of discussion, of course. And what makes this one unique, um, is that this particular, um, fly feeds on living tissue. And so if we think about other maggots or if we think about other, you know, if we try to compare it and wrap our heads around it, the others feed on the dead tissue. Um, and, and so if you talk to some of the people that have been in these cases where, um, they've lived or they've seen the, the screw worm, it's pretty terrible, um, because essentially these animals are dying from the outside in, and they say that the smell is, is pretty horrific, um, because they, of how they feed. And so they feed on that live tissue rather than the dead tissue. Um- And, you know, the other side to that is that because it's the female fly that is doing all of the work, um, releasing the sterile males is important. But it's not like that you can just be like, "Let's make 8 million different, you know, let's make 8 million flies to release," because that takes time, right? That takes time, that takes effort, that takes energy. And so, um, I'm hopeful that that strategy, um, you know, will, will get those sterile flies that we need, and then just, um, protecting the animals that are there and paying attention. And, and a lot of what's coming out of there, out of Texas anyway, and a lot of the recommendation is that not to castrate the animals because it's, you know, it's not to castrate the animals. Even they're saying to use the smallest needle that you can, because any wound, that fly could feed on. Um, any amount of just blood, that fly may navigate to. And then, um, another interesting point is that we all talk about dipping the umbilicuses and, or the navels, and if we should or if we shouldn't. And at least there, um, what they're saying is that we should be, and to use tincture of iodine. Um, and of course, some of the other, you know, where everybody went out and bought all the Dectomax or all the Catron, um, it's seemingly that the Catron or Catron, however you say it correctly, is not really doing, uh, much, um, for, for these flies. Um, and feeding oral, uh, or feeding ivermectin would also be just frowned upon, not only from the fact that it's not working, um, to just take care of this, but also from the other standpoint of increasing parasite or internal parasite resistance. Um, and so I think those people that are on the front lines and, you know, the FDA just trying to, to get ahead of it, you know, every, they're, they're learning something new every single day about what is working the best and what's not working at all. Maybe that answers the question. Yeah. Do you think they're gonna bring back KRS? Do you remember KRS? I don't. So we found some once when I was at Poly and our professor said, uh, and we used it when I was a kid all the time. Mm-hmm. We didn't even have screw worms, but my dad would be like, "Oh, we need to put that on dehorning or castrating or whatever." And, um- Yeah our teacher told us, he goes, "We called that kills rats and snakes." So I, I don't, I don't know w- if that was banned because of CFCs or if it was the actual components. I, I'm not sure. Yeah, and I don't either. And there are, and that's where, um... And I, I can't even remember what's in it. I've, you know, I've seen some of these products that are still legal in other countries. Um, but of course if you, you know, if you look at it, it's like, okay, well what is the reason that it was removed from the market? And then us protecting, you know, the product, right? Um, and ensuring that that safe product is still delivered with what we're doing. Well, I think that definitely it's gonna be one of those that's evolving. I mean, when it comes to screw worm- Yes unfortunate- we did such a great job of eradicating it, we may have eradicated a lot of institutional knowledge too. Like, I, my, my partner in, in our bull sale, he's, he's a big time historian type guy, and he, he tells these stories about these, they were called, uh, worm dogs- Mm-hmm that these guys, cowboys in Texas would have that would... And I don't know, could they smell the screw worm or did they smell the flesh because it was a certain way? Right. I mean, I've rode enough horses in the mountains that the horses you ride in the mountains, if they hear a bell before you do, they'll point their head because they know over time. So did we have specialized horses that could find belled cows? No. I mean, it's just like the habit is reinforced by going and finding- Right the animals, right? So you hear a lot of those stories, but I don't know if until it's a full kinda scale ailment, we probably won't be able to get any of those tools back. Is that kinda fair? I mean, it's not fair- Yeah but is it, is it a fair assessment? Yeah. I, and I think so. I think that, you know, it, it does come back to Really us just, just trying to protect, you know, everything that you guys on the, you know, doing, doing the, the good work here, um, that you guys have, have done over time and just trying to protect that food supply. And some of those drugs, I mean, they were pulled for solid reasons, you know, as far as the carcinogens and, um, just other things that we now know as far as the human side of the world, um, and just really protecting that. So I don't, you know, I think what the FDA has done by conditionally approving some of these drugs for this, that's, that's what they can do right now, um, just because that's what we have available. We have those established withdrawals if those animals are able to make it through those withdrawals and then go on to the next thing. But, um, yeah, I, I don't, I don't know if any of those products are gonna come back. I know that at least some people are talking about them, but there is caution. So we warned you about this early on, that sometimes we take a walk in the woods and we get off topic, but- Yeah I think for some of our most basic, and I appreciate that because I think there's a portion of our listeners that are super, uh, they're filled with thanks about the screw worm, they're filled with thanks- Yeah about, uh, Theileria, Theileria, whatever. Um, but let's just bring it back to the basics. For the very basic producer, what are some low-hanging fruit management strategies that you don't see people employ from a herd health or management standpoint that is the biggest return on investment for a, for a cattle operation? Vaccines. Vaccines. I would say, um, not your, your really solid producers are They're gonna vaccinate, and they, they might vaccinate to a fault. But, um, your s- smaller herds, they may get the blackleg. That, that may be what they get and that may be all they get. Um, you know, deworming, um, at least coming out of the southeast, um, it is It probably will one day be a bigger nightmare, um, than it is right now for cattle. Um, but, you know, we are seeing resistance, heavy resistance to all the dewormers, um, especially on our sheep and goat side of the world. Um, and we have for a while, so that's nothing new, but we're beginning to see it in cattle. Oh, wow. Um, and so using those dewormers appropriately and not just, not just deworming everybody all the time, um, is important. Um, I think the use of... And then even using our dewormers and fly tags and all of those things appropriately, and then maybe I should have said first, maybe I should have said feeding the animals correctly and working with your nutritionist, working with your extension agent, or just asking somebody down the road to help you that's doing it right So did I just hear you... I'm, I, I wanna go back and give you the opportunity. D- I don't want you to become a TikTok reel. Um. God, I don't wanna be a TikTok reel either. So we typically use... And, and, and I'm just joking. I'm joking with you because this is under the advice of our veterinarian that we did that, and I think that that's probably, I'm putting words in your mouth, but you're like, "Hey, consult with your veterinarian and they'll come up with a plan that fits your management and your capabilities, et cetera." But deworming specifically, we always give an injectable plus dewormer because of liver fluke stuff- Mm-hmm that we have in ditch water. We give that in the fall, and then we give a pour-on in the spring. Are you maybe saying that some of us need to start rethinking some of those blanket treatments on large scales of cattle, and specifically deworm cattle based upon individual needs? Or are you saying, you know what, some of those management strate- or, or are you saying both, I guess? Yeah. Um, and so things that I will tell you, so Vince, tell me if I'm wrong 'cause I might be wrong about this. But you guys are doing, are you guys doing an injectable and an oral in Tennessee? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and so that- Is that wrong? is, no. Mm-mm. No, and, and that's in the southeast, that is what we have started recommending, is that we have, um, a- and this is based on studies, this is based on work that they've, um, they've done in Louisiana and Georgia and, um, and having to come at them with two different, um, dewormers sometimes is necessary. Now, the other side to that is there are some farms that they, because of how well they're fed and because of the management that has been in place, they are not deworming cattle greater than two years of age. Now, if you are in liver fluke country, that is a very different conversation- Right because you've got to be able to take care of the liver flukes. Um, and so I think what you said, Joe, was the liver flukes and the internal parasites are different, and the liver flukes, we've got to take care of those. But there are some, especially if they are on a beautiful plane of nutrition, that they don't need dewormed. So- They don't need dewormed for the internal parasites. That's great to hear. So something that I think maybe you were getting at too was over-worming. Did I hear you say that just a second ago, like doing it too much? And I will give an example. When I first started, we were buying cheap pour-on for fly control You know, we, every time we, we had an opportunity, we were squirting it on their back. Um, and here I'm thinking I'm doing great, you know, I'm killing it. I'm, I'm, got fly control and I'm treating my, uh, parasites. So- Mm-hmm we do not do that anymore. Um, we just use a, a, like a Deelice fly, tick pour-on. But, um, and, and maybe that's just as bad because, you know, it, it doesn't seem to work like it used to. But- Mm um, but anyway, I, I, I can see what you were saying about possibly using it too much because in the beginning I, I mean, and there's lots of folks around here that are commercial guys, they just go buy the cheapest dewormer that they can and it's back pour. "Oh, we, we do it all the time. It's, it's kinda like a black leg shot, you know, it's cheap insurance," is what everybody likes to say. But, um- Mm-hmm it, it's definitely, you definitely, and I've even talked to you before about our protocols on vaccinations and, uh, whether you use live or kill or, or a combination or whatever. And because, you know, why do all this if you're gonna skimp on something like that? Or, or think you're doing the best thing that you need to be doing and, and they've, studies have found that that's really not the best thing to do. So, um, that's why- Yeah that's why I had a conversation with you one time about, you know, "Hey, what's the, what's the better protocols that you guys are seeing?" Because a drug company's gonna tell you, "Oh yeah, this is, this is the greatest thing. You need to use this, you need to use this," and maybe it's not. Maybe it is in s- Joe's part of the country, maybe it's not in Tennessee- Right. Yeah or vice versa. Yeah. And there are differences for sure. Geographical differences still exist and, um, that, so that's why not everything fits, um, with, you know... I think the liver flukes, that, that is something that I would not skimp on. Um, and the other thing about the top, the, uh, pour-on, is that because of just cattle behavior in general, um, what they found with those pour-ons, and, and so they p- They did s- uh, they poured some cattle and they didn't pour some other cattle in the same group. And because of their behavior, they would lick it. So they would, the grooming behavior- Huh and so other cattle licking other cattle, and so they would also, they would ingest what was given topically. Um, yeah. And so there- Was that a problem? No. Um- Health-wise? Heal- no, health-wise. That, none of them died because of, you know, ingesting that topical and they just saw, I think what, when they did that, they were surprised because they found similar, um, counts and they weren't anticipating that. Ah. Um, but it was because of the behavior of the cattle. Hm. Um, and then- And one more... I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. No, back when you were saying in Tennessee or in the Southeast, you're saying basically a white wormer and then also an injectable. Are you advocating for that at the same time or spread out in the different seasons like I'd talked about, you s- you space it out accordingly? Yeah, so at least right now, um, it is at the same time. Yes. So it's that combination deworming. Um, now because of the fluke, it, you know, the, there is some thought that, uh, we're beginning to see some fluke issues in Alabama. Um, and I don't know if, uh, probably not any in Tennessee, I would imagine that anybody's heard of. When, when they, when they do, you'll know about it. But, uh, there is some thought that maybe we're beginning to see it here in Alabama. Um, it, they, you know, the west side of Mississippi, you definitely see some fluke issues. Um, but the thought is just like the water that you described, um, and you've gotta have the snail present too. So- There, it was thought for a long time that at least in certain places in the Southeast that we didn't have the fluke issue, but that is maybe beginning to, to be a problem. Um, and then going at those with two different, so your Ivomec Plus and then, um, albendazole to get both of the life cycles of that, um, fluke. Okay, so now all of our listeners that are freaking out, "I have a cow that's thin- I must have liver flukes 'cause I'm in Alabama, and I'm gonna go grab some Valbazen." If you, by the way- Don't if you can get ahold of Valbazen, please send it to me- because you can't get ahold of it. Um- Yeah but there are really, really narrow windows to use that product that it's labeled for- Mm-hmm first of all. But then second all, I, I would ask you, if you think you might have liver flukes, is there a way to test, like you would fecal counts of other internal parasites s- so that people aren't treating a problem that they don't have? Yeah, for sure. Um, yes, and that brings up a great point, too, as far as just parasites in general. Um, it is never a bad idea to do fecals. Um, it really, I, if we have learned anything from the sheep and goat, if we wanna even talk about those creatures, um, I will tell you my favorite animal is a sheep, and people make fun of me all the time, which is fine. Um- that is okay. But if we have learned anything from them, is it is that we should be doing some fecals. Um, and there is a test that you can, um, look for liver flukes. It's called fecal sedimentation. Um, and not every lab does it, but, um, they, most, I would say, of the diagnostic labs in the country, they will do it. Um, and so that is, I wouldn't just go out there and, and get wild with my deworming. I would wanna know what I had and what I was dealing with before I just started doing something. And yeah, Valbazen right now, you, you can't get any of it. We do have some in Auburn, Alabama, and I looked at our intern and I said, "This is a prized possession right now in this country." Do you guys do, um, testing like that there? Do you have a, a facility to, that's, I guess, possibly teaching people how to, how to work somewhere where they're having to do those tests or, or is that something totally different? Yeah, so our, we have a parasitology lab at the vet school, um, and then the state diagnostic lab, um, and there are several different, uh, labs around A- Alabama, and I bet there are in Tennessee too. Um, and even in California. I know there are several in California, um, just based on the, you know, when we lived there in Tulare, there was that lab there. Um, and so most of, um, the diagnostic labs in your state or even if there's, you know, a veterinary teaching hospital, and even the private practitioner can find you somewhere. If you would wanna collect fecal samples, they could find a location if they're not doing it where they can ship the feces to. I know we use our state lab, um, for lots and lots of things. The only time, um, i- if we ever have anything that is a positive- Mm-hmm then we redo it with the state lab and we send it to a l- a private lab in Kentucky just to make sure everybody's on the same page. Um, but you know, that's very, very rare, but the Kentucky one's the only other one that my vet ever talks about. That doesn't mean there's not another one in Tennessee, but- Mm-hmm um, that's the only other one that I know of. Um- But it's good to know that, that Auburn does it too. I mean, I'm assuming anybody can send you a, a sample or is it just- Mm-hmm okay. Yeah. I didn't know if it was closed or- Yeah, yeah. Joe could send us one. He could overnight us feces from California from the cows and yeah, that would be a lot of money, but- Yes, it would be. Joe, Joe spares no expense. Yeah, that's not true. Joe spares every expense. Um, I wanna shift gears though and just kinda be mindful of your time. I think we've been on almost an hour so far, but you've been a vet I think you said almost 15 years? And gosh, man, we didn't even have iPhones back then. The really hip people had BlackBerries. Um, what have you seen in terms of changes in technology that have helped you guys, um, in your work? Do you want the real answer or do you want the lies? No, no, we want the real dirty. Um, I think I know the lies. Lowdown. And I think I know the real, that's why I asked it. Yeah. Um- Uh, so I'll, I'll go with an, I'll go with a negative and then I'll come with a positive. Um, maybe I'll switch that. I will say the, uh, one of the positive I would say is the ability for people to take pictures. Um, that has definitely been something, um, so when Vince sends me the picture of the cow when I say that she is obese, and he sends me the picture that she's in this little eight by eight thing- with no grass, then I can really believe him. Um- And he's shoveling her silage. He actually locked her up- No and crams it down her throat- No with a, like a plunger. He like makes sure she eats all the silage. That's right. That's right. Um, so that is something that I will say has definitely been, um, helpful, is to say, "Hey, can you send me a picture or a video and let me see what you're talking about?" Um, and then, you know, certainly we've got the world at our fingertips, and that is something that some days is kind of terrible because, you know, "Well, I Googled it." I was just fixing to ask that. I was, I know that, I know that you Googled it- but right now I promise that you're wrong. I, I promise. And sometimes you just have to spin it and be like, "Okay. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna go with what you think, but then I'm gonna tell you that X, Y, and Z are actually the problem." Um, so. That sounds familiar. Yeah, somebody's like, uh, what, what is it called? The, your cow's got fiber mileage, uh. You're like, "Ah, I got all these symptoms." And you're like watching, you're sitting there watching Yellowstone and the ad comes on and you're like, "My cow has that." Mesothelioma. Your cow has mesothelioma. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, goodness. But having said that, though, do you think that with AI it just has the ability to extend out your network if, if it's you, if it's a practicing veterinarian who wants to gather more information to distill out the decision tree? Because, uh, the more I talk to you the more I think, like- You're a living organism's troubleshooter. That's kinda what you are. And that's why you have all these classes that are so hard and so difficult is- Yeah you're crammed full of all this knowledge. But that network, like California has not experienced that, that anyone I know of, Tyleria. Mm-hmm. But if my veterinarian were to plug into AI, boom, immediately. And, and they could probably call one of their colleagues. There's probably some that have done work with you, and they could call you- Yeah and say, "What do these symptoms look like?" But just from the comfort of their home, at the end of the day they go, "Gosh, this case is bothering me." Plug it into AI and they go, "Okay, well this is..." That's not necessarily a prescription for a producer to go use that either though, is what you're saying, correct? Right. Yeah. And I will say even with us, we, you know, we are looking at AI and, and I will use it some, and Sometimes it's just, it's wrong, so there's that. Um, but sometimes it does give you, like even whenever we'll use it, because a lot of times now, like that'll be the first three lines that pop up, um, and it'll give you sources. And, you know, you have to take those sources with a grain of salt with, you know, are they the, you know, is it the Facebook group page or is it an actual, you know, .edu article from somewhere? Um, and so I think for me that's, that's definitely how I will use it, and that is probably one of the most helpful because it can give you some really good references to what you're trying to find, or it may give you a reference and then within that reference is something else that's good. So something that, that I actually meant to work in earlier when we were talking and kind of got off course. It... I know there are multiple doctors there and you guys are always on a rotation. Is that right? Mm-hmm. Um, how many different doctors are there? Because I know, I think I've talked to at least four. Mm-hmm. I never got to talk to your husband. Um- but I have talked to, I know Passler. Mm-hmm. Um, and I can't remember the other two. One of them was an older guy and he was really cool. I don't remember what his name was, but he was pretty cool. He was, he was very just straightforward. I can't remember what his name was. Um, but how many, how many different... And are they all... I'm assuming that they are all, they all have the same responsibilities as far as teaching So, um, not necessarily. Okay. Uh, so we have, I think, I think it's 11 faculty, um, it's either 11 or 13 faculty, um, that make up the food animal and, um, so the food animal section. That section is divided into the hospital and then what's called FARRIS, which is our, uh, Farm Animal Reproductive and Ambulatory Service. So we just call it FARRIS because it's a shortened name of all that, that I just said. Um, and so what we have, um, so I'll, I'll just name them. Pasler, Chamorro, Bane, and myself are- I talked to Bane as well. Yes. Sorry. Are all internist, um, and so internal medicine. And then we have, um- Waters, Rush, Klabnick, Armstrong are all theriogenologists or the reproductive side of things. Um, and then the other, he, Dr. Stockler, and then Bennett, they are, um, ABVP, um, or, um, Dr. Bennett als- so the other Dr. Stockler's ABVP. Dr. Bennett, he, uh, has a dual role both within our college and then the College of Ag. So he is serving a dual role with the herds there. And, um, everybody has a little bit of a different assignment. So Pasler and Chamorro, um, and Bane and Klabnick do a lot of research. Um, and then all the rest of us have a higher clinical responsibility. Ah, gotcha. As does Bane. So it is, it is different, um, just based on what you wanna do, um, and what you enjoy, I would say. I gotcha. I- So I think we've all enjoyed the f- go ahead, Vince. No, I was just gonna say, I really, um, the first time I went down there, they, while they were evaluating the animal, somebody gave me a little tour, and it was really, really interesting, all the stuff and different things. Like you have, um, there's a couple of different places if you have a, I, I don't know how else to say it, um, maybe a bad-tempered animal- Mm-hmm um, where you can close his pen down, his or her pen down, treat her, and open it back up without anybody having to get in there with him or anything like that. If I would've saw the tub, I would definitely remember the tub. That was, that would be pretty awesome. I don't think I ever saw it. Um, and then, you know, some of the, some of the, um, I, I don't think I saw the MRI machine, but I, I think I did see the CT machine. But just all the different things and the setup, it's, it's very, it's very interesting for somebody that's never been, uh, in anything like that before. Um, and I was, I was very thankful that they took me on a little tour while they were evaluating the animal. So, uh, I, I have maybe a little bit better understanding of the things that you can do there. Yeah. What were you gonna say, Joe? Well, I was just gonna say that I f- I think, um- You haven't explicitly said this, but the entire country basically has enjoyed the fruits of teaching hospitals because we're putting out clinicians that actually have practical experience out working on animals with somebody. Um, I remember this happening, and I don't know if they actually shut it down or what happened at Davis, but the C Barn was a big hot topic and shutting down the C Barn. And then producers came out in arms saying, "You can't shut that down." And, and I can understand both sides of those arguments. So I'm going to throw to you, what are the best ways producers can support programs like Auburn's Teaching Hospital? Um, yeah, so that's a great question. I think that, um, certainly Utilizing us, um, when they're, you know, in the normal or maybe when there's a disaster. Um, hopefully we, you know, see you with something more normal rather than only the disasters. And, you know, not that everything has to be about money, um, but I would say that any of the veterinary teaching hospitals, um, they definitely have development teams that you can donate, um, money to. You can say, "I want it to go to the food animal, um, department, and I want it to specifically be used for X, Y, and Z," or, "I want this to go to, um, a new reproductive technique," or, "I want this to be able to be utilized for..." And this is just coming to my mind. We, um, we have a dairy rotation for senior students and, and they travel in, um, the Southeast and, uh, they actually go to Texas because one of our, uh, former, and he is still very much all of our friend, but he was here at Auburn, uh, Dr. BJ Newcomer. And, uh, so he's out there in, uh, Texas and works in New Mexico, so they go out there. And so, you know, if somebody knew that there was this dairy rotation that, you know, could use some extra funds, they could say, "I want this amount of money to go to there." Um, and so I think there are ways to support it, not just by bringing your animal to us and letting the students learn. Because I mean, at the end of the day, that is absolutely, um, v- an invaluable, um, experience for them. Um, and you know, letting them have that hands-on experience. But, you know, if somebody felt the need that they wanted to, to go one step further, there are those things that are set up through the school. I don't think that you... I, I feel like any time I have ever been there, man, when I get a bill, it is so reasonable. Like, there's been times that I thought you guys did some major stuff, and I had more in a fuel bill getting down to you and back home- Mm-hmm than what you charged. Um, I've had a cow stay there for a week to 10 days, and it really wasn't terrible. Um, I don't think that all- Places are like that, um, 'cause I've heard some nightmares about, um, some other colleges, and maybe it was very specific to something very technical that they had to do, I don't know. Yeah. Um, but in my experience with, with Auburn, you guys have always treated me very fair. So I, I know you're not getting enough money there to support the whole, the whole deal, so I, I, I'm assuming you have lots and lots of boosters. Yeah. And I, I think so. We have a really great development team. That's also what I can say, that is at the vet school, and those, those ladies are phenomenal, so. And when you call and you get put on hold, I think they leave you on hold for a specific amount of time so you hear that whole- that whole shabaz about, you know, you can donate money to the college if you want to, and have you ever listened to it? Have you ever had to listen to that? I need to g- I need to just tell them to put me on hold for a bit. There, there's some kind of- Also I can hear- kind of, I cannot remember what the heck it's called, but it's some kind of thing, it says home of the only Some kinda like tiger or, or some kinda cat, um- They are the tiger's vets scanner, scanner. Some kinda tiger scanner or... So every time I c- I keep forgetting 'cause I wanna ask the little student that answers the phone, but by the time she- Yeah picks up I forget what it's called, so I can't ever remember to, to ask her. 'Cause I know it's probably, it's nothing real, and I'm sure it's gonna, she's gonna be like, "I don't know what you're talking about." Yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna have to make- You need to listen to it make my son listen to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. H- call over there and m- put me on hold. I don't know, Vince, when you, you mentioned that about the cost, I, I've always felt the same way whenever I've used Davis. And I think as we've seen beef cattle prices go up- Yeah and this is kind of a beef prod, uh, uh, podcast, I mean, there's pr- probably gonna be a lot more influx of animals because they have a tremendous amount of value. Um- Right and so, uh, and, and I don't know if her connection was unstable or if it was me, but, um, I did hear Dr. Stockler talk about just having the throughput of treatments needed for the experience of students is supportive of those programs as well. Right. And that's how it was even when we were at Polly. I mean, if we didn't have custom feeding heifers or somebody's bulls on feed, you couldn't put together a couple classes to even judge 'cause there weren't enough cattle. Or to do a lecture on vaccines, you, you know, you'd have to have three head per class, you know, with 30 students in a class. Well, luckily there we had enough animals that everyone could experience those things. And so, um, I think these teaching hospitals are great. I think they're fantastic. Talking about the staff having a research arm as well, who, you know, is looking over these new and emerging things, and then practically putting students in the position so that they aren't just thrown to the wolves when they go back out to industry. I mean- Right um, that's, that's a challenge out here is just making sure that there's, you know, like preg checking for example. I mean, they just gotta get through a lot of animals to be able to do it- Right proficiently, and somebody has to give them those opportunities. So we're gonna close out here because it's, I've, I've noticed I used to see three trees in the background of her window- and now I see pitch black. And so, you know, what do you think, and, and I think, I think I've heard you say this a f- a few times, but what separates the healthiest and most successful livestock operations from the ones who seem to struggle? Yeah, I think it is having, um, it is having, one, I would say Some kind of a feeding program or working with the nutritionist or somebody that can get you in contact with the people, um, that are necessary to just, um, make you understand, especially if you weren't necessarily raised on a farm or raised with livestock. Um, and so I think that, that that is probably first and foremost, and then not being afraid to ask for help because there are some really excellent producers out there that would hopefully more than likely be willing to guide you and give you what their ideas are and how they have failed, um, and what has worked for them and what hasn't worked for them. Um, and so I still think that talking through things with people is imperative. Um, I'm often reminded of just my hometown because it's still very rural America in the eastern panhandle of West Virginia, and my dad, retired extension agent, still goes to the stockyard every Wednesday. Um, and, and they have their little meet up there and they talk about things. And so I think that those things are still important where you can just ask, um, and say, "Okay, well, how do I do this? What do I do?" Um, and then the other thing I would say, and we didn't really talk about that, which is, which is A-okay, if animals start dying, uh, find the closest diagnostic lab or find the veterinarian that will come out and post the animal for you because loss can be really fast and it can be very devastating. Absolutely. Um, and um, so I think that that is also an important aspect, um, whether you're, whether you've been in it for 100 years or whether you've been in it for five minutes. Um, do the... Find somebody that does the necropsy or find the closest diagnostic lab and don't be afraid to figure out how to load that animal up in the truck and get it to where it needs to go, um, because that could be the, the thing that saves the whole operation. Right. Do you see lots of people that you just wanna look at and tell, "You don't need livestock. You should just sell all your animals" I mean, maybe. Maybe Maybe. Um, sometimes it might be that way, yes. It sorta sounds like though, it, it sorta sounds like if you answered that question in reverse of what you just said, then yes, you probably should- not own livestock. Like, if you can't pick up the phone and learn, if you can't call people- Right if you can't try to be better, if you... Like, yes, you probably don't need to own livestock, and you probably don't need to have children either, but we aren't gonna put those prescriptions on this podcast. And I wanna make one clarification. I went through several towns in West Texas, and I thought it was Canyon. It may have been Plainview. It may have been Plainview that had the $3 things, but I do know that I attended one of those places. Um, last question I wanna ask you, is there any questions you have for us? Yeah. Or is there anything you wanna add to the podcast that you haven't this evening? Oh, I don't know. I should have prepared a question. I wanna, I, I wanna come to Vince's sale and just sit there and watch everything and be, uh, taken around on the- Well, you're welcome anytime on the, the Gator, get the- the air-conditioned Gator, and I wanna- There isn't one of those There isn't one of those. No, no, and the, the Upchurch boys broke the side-by-side, so I don't even know if we could use that. Can we? Yeah, I fixed it from where Aiden destroyed it, but, uh- Aiden destroyed it. Aiden's a loyal listener, so we have to- Yeah give him some crap. We gotta give him a hard one. But you know what? You could probably ride around with Corbin and lock his hubs in and out every time- because he can't figure out how to turn that truck with the hubs in. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my goodness. Oh. And then see this washing machine. It was a washing machine that was up in the hay loft. It's a, it's a dishwasher. It's a dishwasher. It's a dishwasher up in the hay- No, there's a pair of them. Come on. Is there? There's a pair. I don't even know it's up there. You should pa- you should pay more attention. I don't- I'll give you a tour I don't look at them because I might have to move them, so I just, I ignore them. That's, that's the best. Just- They'll, they'll be there when you need them. They'll be there when you need them, but I appreciate these, these little quips you throw out. Tells me you're a very loyal listener, Dr. Stogler. So thank you for that, and thanks for, for sharing with us this evening, and thanks for giving back by teaching some young people. Yes. I mean, I think, um, and we just, w- we're really passionate about that. I know Vince is, and I am, and Corbin is, and it's funny. We talk about all these kind of trinkety things. What do we do to get the new generation involved? What do we do? Sometimes it's just giving them an opportunity and giving them your time. Yeah. And I appreciate people like you devoting a career to that. I mean, um, I, I think it's really, really special. And, and having said that, I mean, for any of our veterinarian prospects out there who go, "You know, I don't know that I wanna practice forever," maybe a path, a pathway is one that you found, where you have your own practice for a little bit, and then you go into a teaching role at one of these other vet schools. And, and I think it's very cool, and I'm thankful that Vince brought it up to have you as a guest. So thanks for joining us tonight. Fantastic. Yeah. I appreciate you guys, for sure, and, um, I, uh, I would say that, you know, any, any of us are always here to help, and we can always listen. And if we don't know something, we can find somebody that does, um, because there are a lot of, a lot of big brains in this, uh, veterinary world. That's what I can say. Well, I would definitely, I'm definitely appreciative that you guys are there. I do wish you were just a little bit closer, but nonetheless, um, very appreciative that you guys are there and have always, uh, just done a great job helping us. And I would recommend anybody that has, you know, maybe some odd issue or a very, um, particular something that might be above your, your vet's, I w- I shouldn't say qualifications, but what he's, what his practice is qualified to do, um, I would, I would suggest reaching out. Um, that was a good thing about, about our vet. I mean, he knows that we're willing to, to go above and beyond a lot of times, and he's like, "You just take her to Auburn. Th- I've done all I can do here. Load her up and get her, he, he or she down to the, to the vet and, uh, to Auburn, and they can do this, and they can do that." And a lot of times he'll call down there ahead and give a evaluation of, of what he's already seen, so you guys have got a heads up. But, um, I, I'm grateful for you. And, um, I know lots of other people probably are as well. And, um, i- if you've never taken advantage of a, a, something like this in your, in your area, uh, definitely pay attention Appreciate that very much Well, you guys have always treated me great, and, um, I know you probably treat everybody that comes through there great, so... But Joe, are you done? You got anything else? I don't. I, I think, you know, I, I don't want our listeners to think if Vince and Joe have all these issues. I mean, I, I do think it's important- Hey, man, if you got livestock, you're gonna have issue every now and then Absolutely, and I think, I think that, uh, one part I would add just as you were giving that little rap that I liked was if you establish a relationship at these teaching hospitals, then your own veterinarian will establish the confidence to say, "You know what? Take that animal to Auburn." Yeah. "You know what? Take that animal to Davis." And, and like Dr. Stockler said, the, the cell phones, the videos, you send stuff to your own vet, and maybe they're off or maybe they can't get to it, and they're like, "Can you get that one to Davis?" Right. And sometimes I have, sometimes I haven't, you know? And, um, but I do think if you have one within driving distance, you'd be foolish to not at least develop a relationship there. Yeah, I would agree with that. And any time- I would you know, she didn't say this, but any time there's threats of closing those down or limiting the program or whatever, sometimes it's just best to get ahold of those vets and say, "What can we do to help those teachers?" And say, "Do you need letters? Do you need someone to go to the state capital?" Like, do we need funding, some other sources? But just be willing to keep them a part of our community because, I mean, honestly, it was interesting when she brought up you start losing animals and that snowball starts coming. We've enjoyed in this business, um, probably a lot less losses generally than a lot of other businesses do, but in the event that they do start mounting, you damn sure are gonna wanna have resources available. Yeah, absolutely. And if you don't use those people and you don't have a r- you don't have a relationship, where do you even start? So, uh, I definitely thank you for coming on so much, and Vince, great suggestion, and I'm excited to hear how this one edits up. And, um, I got nothing else to add. All righty. Thank you all. Thank you for coming on. Yep, you betcha. Thanks for having me. Any time. Do you know how it wraps up, or do you ever listen to them? Yeah, do you know how it wraps up? I don't. Ugh, she never listens to it. Come on. I, I didn't listen- No, she shuts it off five minutes in. Does she- Five minutes leaves us when all the ads are coming? Five minutes in. Yeah. All right. Take it away, Timur. Catch y'all next time.