Marketers Unleashed
Welcome to Marketers Unleashed!
The podcast where marketers break free from the noise and dive deep into the raw truths of the marketing world. We’re here to go beyond best practices and uncover the bold ideas, untold stories, and hard lessons that shape real marketing success.
From dissecting daring campaigns to confronting the challenges keeping us awake at night, we’re unleashing honest, unfiltered conversations to inspire, educate, and challenge you to think differently.
Marketers Unleashed
How Managers In Creative Industries Can Embrace Neurodiversity
Join Kathryn Strachan on Marketers Unleashed as she dives deep with David P. Jones, CMO of Corpora.ai and founder of Neurodiversity in Business. This episode unpacks the role of creativity and neurodiversity in marketing and how AI reshapes the industry. David shares his personal journey with ADHD, the importance of understanding individual strengths, and actionable strategies for businesses to support neurodiversity talent. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that challenges you to think differently and embrace inclusivity in your marketing efforts.
Social Media Links:
Kathryn Strachan - linkedin.com/in/kathryn-strachan
David P. Jones - linkedin.com/in/davidpughjones
Website - corpora.ai/
Welcome to Marketers Unleashed, the podcast where marketers break free from the noise and dive deep into the raw truths of the marketing world. We're here to go beyond best practices and uncover the bold ideas, untold stories, and hard lessons that shape real marketing success. From dissecting daring campaigns to confronting the challenges keeping us awake at night, we're unleashing honest, unfiltered conversations to inspire, educate, and challenge you to think differently. Get ready to conquer the untamed side of marketing. I'm your host, Kathryn Strachan, and this is Marketers Unleashed, where we're not just talking marketing, we're redefining it. For anyone who doesn't know me yet. I'm Kathryn Strachan, author of Scaling Success Building Brands that Break Barriers, international keynote speaker and fractional CMO for cutting edge brands. I have spent years navigating the ever-changing world of marketing and have seen it all. As your podcast host, I bring my expertise and curiosity to the table diving deep into honest conversations with industry leaders to uncover the insights, challenges, and bold ideas shaping our industry. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to Marketers Unleashed. Today I'm here with Mark Evans, who's going to be talking to us about being made redundant, his career journey, and building a portfolio career. Mark, do you wanna get us started by telling us a bit about your background and who you are and what you do?
Mark:Yes, I'd love to and thank you for having me on. I spent 25 years in corporate land as a marketer primarily. But I was an accidental marketer in that I was destined for a career in finance. I was made redundant before I'd even started my graduate job. But very fortunate to have landed in Mars and did a graduate thing there, and 25 years in marketing. Then two and a half years ago, I moved into more of a portfolio space. I don't like the term, so I call it a fruit salad. And so now in a post executive phase, I do a blend of coaching advising trustee, NED, mentoring, podcast, charity events. Nobody's cracked the code of life, but I'm really enjoying this next chapter.
Kathryn:Yeah, I mean I like the portfolio career model. We don't have to call it that, we call it a fruit salad, but I like that model. I do it myself. I'm keen to dive into that, but before we do, I wanna talk about being made redundant.'Cause I have a lot of friends at the moment who are going through that. I mean, The market shit and marketers are being hit pretty hard by, the economic uncertainty of the last two years, certainly. I know that you were made redundant four times in your career, which could not have been easy. But can you tell me a little bit about those times and like what happened and what was going on?
Mark:Yeah, happy to. And I do like to talk about this because it shouldn't be a taboo, and it is. But the reality is I think on average it's like one and a half for every individual that's working. So I've already talked about the first one. I was made redundant when I hadn't started. I hadn't even set foot in the building. But the sequence of events are, I did 10 years at Mars and I probably would've stayed forever. But there was a big restructuring. Which meant that everybody above a certain level had to move to Germany. But my second child had just been born. My wife was showing all the indications of having, postnatal depression and so on, and therefore it wasn't right. And it really hurt because it was somewhat elective. In, I could have gone to Germany, but it wasn't the right thing for the family. But ultimately the organization saying we don't actually really need you anymore. In a way. Then I went to 1 1 8, 1 1 8. I did four years there. Big global restructuring role is, um, no longer there. Fine. Then I went to HSBC and only after two years of big restructuring meant that the role was no longer there. and obviously it hurts. The last time I was made redundant, I went home and by this stage now my daughter is old enough to process these things. And I said, the job's no longer there, but you know, there's a bit of time I'll stick on and I'll find something else. It will all be fine. And it's not that I'm rubbish, it's not like your dad's rubbish. It's just that the role's no longer needed. And she sort of paused and said, yeah, but in the end they just don't want you anymore, do they? It's like, okay! The mind of a child is quite purifying, so why do I say that? So different circumstances, different flavors, same thing. You're no longer needed and that hurts, and that's a loss of identity that can grate with your values and beliefs. It can mean that all of a sudden you're not utilizing the skills that you've got, the behaviors that you like to demonstrate. It sort of yanks every level of us as a human system. Which is why I think it is important to talk about it and to normalize it because it's the reality.'cause as you've portrayed Kathryn, it's a bit of a crap time right now for marketing. It's definitely a buyer's market, let's put it that way. And I know a number of people who are out there, not gonna say struggling, but not yet landing what they want. And it's taking a lot longer than they think. And yes, of course there's potentially financial implications, but it's also, their very lives. The way you think about yourself, the way you are as a parent, the way you are as a partner, this is deep human stuff. My slightly more optimistic take on this is typically it works out for the best. There's a good reason and there's a better land to go to. And in the rear view mirror, wouldn't do anything differently. I don't regret any of the forward redundancies I had because it forces you to figure out what's your a game. What are your conditions for success? What's important to you? What do you hold dear? And then go and find that as best you can. But in the moment it hurts regardless.
Kathryn:it does hurt.'cause it feels really personal, right? it feels like they're saying, we don't want you anymore, or you're not good enough. But I've been on the other side of this as well, I've been in the room making those decisions on who's gonna be made redundant. So I've seen it from the business side. I know from the business side that it's often not personal. It's, what roles do we have? What roles do we need? Where can we cut some of these expenses? I mean, a bigger structure like Mars as well would've been numbers, you know, the people making those decisions may not have even known who you were. How do you not take it personally?
Mark:There is going to be a period of mourning. It's the classic change curve. And it's easy to say, you just need to accelerate through that. It's not true. What is mourning? It's letting go of something on your terms, and that is a very real thing to let go of what has been a part of your life. There's a really lovely, little clip from Sam Harris, And he talks about, being cognizant of things happening because at some point it'll be the last time that it's happened and you'll miss it, good and bad. And so I think, recognizing that it's painful and you need to go through that process of mourning is a thing. And there's a lovely expression that I learned from, Laura Beckingham, who's a post-conventional coach. And she said that going through a transition like that is, called the liminal space. I'd never heard of it. Sounded quite fancy and when Laura explained it, she said it's between no longer and not yet. it's a space of frustration and anger and ambiguity and uncertainty and risk. But it's also a space of creativity and exploration and discovery and possibility and open-mindedness and learning. This ultimately tells me it's all about mindset. This transition process is, recognizing registering, acknowledging that there's needs to be aour process. But in parallel, what's your mindset? Do you see the problem in the opportunity or the opportunity in the problem? I think that's the biggest sliding doors to effectiveness in managing this kind of situation.
Kathryn:And every cloud has a silver lining, right? So even in the darkness, there's always gonna be something good that comes out of it. But it's hard to keep that positive mindset, especially when a lot of times this change is quite sudden. So, I mean, when you find yourself in that situation, it's an opportunity to like reassess and to rebuild in a direction that you want to go in. Which yeah, is there's some beauty in that, I think. I wanted to talk about the shame and the taboo around it because, while it's not personal and while like anybody who's been involved in those decisions is seen how not personal it is. When you put so much love and loyalty and dedication into your work. It feels very personal and it feels embarrassing to, be let go of, You think, maybe I'm not good at this role. How do you deal with that mean voice in your head that's saying, you know, they let you go because you weren't as good as the next guy.
Mark:So there's a couple of maxims that really have helped me, over the years to think about these things. And a book. Everything is obviously stolen from somewhere else, so none of this original thinking to be straightforward, but somebody once said, this expression, don't be sad it's over. Be glad it happened. It's just such, such an elegant way to capture the notion of, it's the closing of one chapter and in the beginning of a new. So that just helped me. And so when I finally, for the first time ever chose to leave an organization, not to be made redundant, but to move and transition into the portfolio fruit salad thing. That was part of my leaving speech and I'd used it previously as well, but I think that's just such an elegant way of words just to help to draw a line. Another drawing the line Maxim, which I love is, to care passionately, but only up to the point that it's pointless to care. And there comes a time when you have to let go of and not care. Which is, maybe easier said than done. For me personally, I find, words help a lot just to sort of center to yourself. Perhaps the biggest thing is, the book "Oh, the Places You'll Go". It's just about a kid having a nice time in a wonderland. But through the eyes of an adult. I think it's a really strong message and it says. You will be successful, you will be fulfilled you'll be all of these things. But not every day,,or every job, but in the end, it's those undulations that create learning and perspective and make for an interesting life. And I love that metaphor. So for me visually, each of the ups and downs of being employed and made redundant were just like pages in that book. Everyone will have the things that just keeps them centered and gets them through. Some people make a very active decision to, seek therapy because it's a lot to process. And what's therapy about? It's about helping to process. Some people choose to get a coach for the first time. And it's whatever resources really help you to get through and get on. I've already given one piece of advice, it's which choose your cadence. The other piece of advice would be really pay attention to Dr. Seuss Oh, the Places You'll Go.
Kathryn:I love that book. The, uh, like final lines in that book is "You've got brains in your head and feet in your shoes, and you'll steer yourself in whatever direction you'll choose." And I love that sentiment that like you get to control your future. You get to control your destiny, and you get to choose a path that you follow in life. Was there anything that you found worked particularly well in finding your next role or Navigating the job search?
Mark:So times have moved on and less roles go through search companies than they used to. But if I pick up on the think, feel, do. What is your objective? Let's find a framework for your objective. If it's not insight, proposition, reason to believe, you know, as a classical marketing thing, think, feel, do, goes a long way. Like, what is my intended outcome of this meeting? What do I want 'em to think, feel, do? So I, I do use that a fair bit. This is a bit left field, but I went on an amazing course in... I'm old, right? So 1998, I think it was. It's called Mind Store for Life, which I think is still going. The founder and the presenter, where it's guy called Jack Black. not the sort of Hollywood star, but actually a Glaswegian social worker of Olden. It was all about visualization. Utilizing your right brain. It was revelatory. I'd liked it so much that I went back with my wife and did it. I'm not here to advertise the course, but the point was it gave me quite early in my career, in a day when this wasn't a thing, an eye into visualization. Which I now use quite a bit within my coaching to help people to vividly see a future reality and rehearse it. I heard a lovely story many years later that made me think I was ahead of the curve here. I saw Steve Bakley an Olympic javelin thrower, talk about his career. And the most meaningful thing to me was we said, I was met to win the Olympic gold medal. I was the world champion, I was the world record holder. I'd won everything. And then I snapped my Achilles about seven months before the Olympics. And he said, all I could do was visualize. And so he remembered and watched the video of his most successful throw. And for months, and months, and months, he would see it from every seat in the stadium, the sights, the sounds, the smells, practicing that throw, not physiologically, but visually, visualizing it. And then when it got to the Olympics, he barely jogged and he went out and he threw a gold medal throw on his first throw. Sadly, Jan zelensky on the very last throw Beat him so then he got silver, but it was amazing that he was even there. And then there's a study in the US which takes random people off the street, gets 'em to throw some basketball hoops. Month later, gets 'em back again to do it. In between times, one third have had no practice. One third have practiced every day for half an hour or something. And one third have visualized every day. And the results are astonishing. The people who haven't practiced no change, the people who have practiced physically with a ball, 24% improvement, the people who have practiced visually 23% better. So it's nearly exactly the same, visualizing it is actually doing it. So in my head that says, if you visualize something to all intents and purposes, you've actually done it. So for big meetings and big moments, find the time to actually be calm, nice breathing, and so on, and imagine what the great outcome is that links do you think, feel, do. A really warm handshake coming back or if it's a presentation, people applauding, or everyone's smiling or nobody in the audience has got their mobile phones out. And then to all intents and purposes, you have actually done it. And I just think that leads to better outcomes and uh, I just think at the margin, these things do make a difference.
Kathryn:Yeah, and I think like rather than going into panic mode where you're just applying for, 500 jobs every day, but like actually taking the time to define what it is that you want, where you want to go, and visualizing, how you're gonna get there. It's the same strategy we create as marketers on how we're gonna launch a campaign. What is your roadmap and how are you gonna get there and what does that look like? So I think it makes a lot of sense to me.
Mark:There's one other thing which comes to mind, As a coach now it's my go-to model, It says a chap called Robert Dilts, NLP. the neurological levels of change or the logical ladders or the ladder, logical ladder or logical levels, it's a brilliant model. You can look it up. It's a very simple triangle and it's built for marketers.'cause it's like your brand positioning pyramid. And the intent of this is to capture all the moving parts in a human system. That could be a team or a business, but I think it's really most powerful for an individual. And it captures everything that's going on. The environment, the behaviors, the skills, the values, the identity and the purpose. As an integrated system, it captures everything that's going on. It's a great diagnostic. If something's not feeling right, it'll be one of those six. It's also great for pros and cons. maybe I've landed two jobs, which do I take? Pros and cons on steroids would be describing those two opportunities in the full texture of all six layers, and then you'll make a much more balanced and non-ego based decision. But the exercise that I get people to do when they're at these kind of inflection moments is think about when you are at your absolute frigging pinnacle best, smashing it in life and work and everything. Maybe one particular year or one project or one role or whatever it is, And then think about, okay, what was the environment that created the condition of success? The culture, the systems, the processes, the people, the sights and sounds and smells of that environment, and then in this environment, let's go up a layer. What behaviors you were demonstrating? Not a laundry list, but the two or three that which were most powerful. Go up a layer. What are the skills that are most powerful to and available to you? Not a laundry list, but the things that really characterize your impact. Go up a layer. What are the values you hold dear? Again, not a laundry list of 5, 6, 7, but the one or two things go up a layer. What's your identity? Often metaphorical. So I've had people say, I'm a pirate, I'm a shield, I'm a magnet. I'm a wood burner. I'm a, Swiss Army knife. I'm a pied piper. I'm a gardener, Like almost your leadership signature in one word or more powerfully a metaphor, and then up to purpose, which is always one of four things. People, teams, problems, change. And if you can articulate all this as a process, like a brand pyramid, you'd go up and you go down and you go up and you go down to make sure it's all mutually consistent as one system, then this is your sat nav for what you're looking for in your job.' cause these collectively are your conditions for success where you'll have a disproportionate impact and disproportionate fulfillment with least effort because you are on brand for your own internal system. I think this model is bloody great at centering your narrative for everything.
Kathryn:It sounds really good. I'm like already thinking about what I would be, I think I'd be an explorer. I'm, always up for an adventure and constantly curious about the world and the way that things work and people's stories.
Mark:You could now do a word cloud. You could. Visualize it. You could get your crayons out. There was somebody I was coaching, who, Gardner was their metaphor, So the sights and sounds and smells of beautiful garden. sometimes you've gotta do structuring. This is the seasons and sometimes winter comes. if he has to do a big board presentation, he needs to put his big boy pants on for Chelsea Flower show. And then he said, not so long ago, I need to leave and now I need to leap the gate. But the most important thing is it's become his vivid way of him describing himself as a leader out loud to others. There's so many metaphorical references that drop off of it. And so for you as explorer, you know your MO, you know your shtick, you know what you do with friends, family, work colleagues, total strangers. You probably bring that exploratory discovery, curiosity to bear. So now I'm thinking, okay, which explorer and where are you going? And what are you taking with you and what are you leaving behind? You've brought to life perfectly that if you can just tap into something which is natural to you, and this knits neatly with my worldview. I'm a pathological optimist. I believe you can have your cake and eat it in life. You can be more successful and you can be more fulfilled. Oh, how's that? there's no magic beans. It's just by knowing what your brilliant best is and doing it consistently. That's it.
Kathryn:staying true to yourself and following that,
Mark:Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn:Part of staying true to yourself now actually means having a fruit salad of a career. So maybe you're a chef. Can you tell me what that means? What the hell is a fruit salad?
Mark:So I'm a Swiss Army knife Box of tricks, template guy, all that, in service of helping people to be more successful and more fulfilled simultaneously. So that's my top of the ladder. Fruit salad. So I had quite a period of time to think about this'cause I, made a decision way before I actually exited that this was what I was gonna do. And I was able to have a vivid conversation with the CEO at the time, which, you know, this is gonna be my last exact job, but, you know, I'll stay here for a period longer, but. That's inevitably where I'm gonna go. Two elements to this. One is, what I observed is that when people were talking about portfolio careers or plural careers, there was a real sense of, status and ego attachment to that. So when I observe people talking on panels about, well, in my portfolio, on my board, or my boards, and I'm thinking, whoa, hang on. You're holding onto all the status and ego, which I think is part and parcel of letting go of that to move to a next chapter where you can have a bigger impact and it's less about you and you're more of a facilitator, and so on and so forth. I just didn't like the formality and status attached with portfolio, and plural. Then also I knew that like the Swiss Army knife for me would want to have something which is much more eclectic than maybe just like three Foot C-100 NED boards with, 3000 pages of board books to read every month. That wasn't gonna be my combination of stuff. And I remembered Karen Blackett, who, talked brilliantly about diversity. And she said, in the end it's just like a fruit salad. It is tasty for all the component parts. And so then I thought, Ooh, I could steal that reappropriate that expression into what I'm doing now and say, well, something that's healthier, varied, tasty, and so on, and a bit irreverent, like not its own ass. And so I love fruit salad and if I used to be like the direct line guy, because that was where I was for a decade and that was a good gig. If I'm now the fruit salad guy, I love that because you know, ha for me it just has sort of a, an irreverence and an energy. The martyr in me says it's quite distinctive. Like people say, what the hell is that? People then play it back to me later. So it seems to have a memorability, back to think, feel, do. What am I trying to convey? It's kind of all joins up.
Kathryn:The portfolio career is having a bit of a heyday at the moment. I know a lot of people who are wanting to do it. There's a lot of studies happening at the moment, but what should you think about if you want to maybe consider or explore that route?
Mark:It's a fantastic question because it's not for everybody, and actually I have to credit you. because You sent me an article about some of the downside risks that made me really think about my advice to others. in terms of it's not for everybody all the time. What I do is this combo of coaching, couple of trustee roles, one big, one small, a couple of NED roles, quite small, a bunch of pro bono things, and then some more sort of like retained advisory. So you're not consultant, you're not holding a pen, but you're there maybe one or two days a month to be helpful. in whatever way is useful to that business or that individual. So I think the reasons you do it, or the reasons that I perceive is, freedom, control, more fun 'cause you're doing things you wanna do, more holiday, not working weekends, more variety, more learning, more network. Commercially, kind of about neutral, but many people think, oh my God, am I committing commercial suicide? But if you're reasonably successful in the way that the tax works, it's not commercially self-sacrificial. but generally, you are in control. you're accountable to yourself. And you can have a lot of fun. Some of the things you let go of is the drudge of corporate life, some of the politics, some of the routine meetings, some of the things that, you don't enjoy making people redundant and so on. You also have a lot of cognitive freedom. My decoding of the corporate life is basically you're paid to be stressed ' cause you're paid to hold it in your head all the time. That's what you're paid to do, to be obsessive. And what's interesting in a portfolio mode or fruit salad mode is you're paid almost the opposite to have a clean brain and not to carry things and not to hold. Okay? Yes, remember contexts and a bit of history, but you know, to be detached, to be out of the weeds and therefore give a perspective and by virtue of the fact that you come at things from a distance, distances, a superpower, and you can't help but see things differently. So there's a cognitive freedom. So if I said all that to you, you'd say, where do I sign? There are some downsides to be aware of. Two main ones. One is, it is a reduction in status, so you have to let go of, you no longer have a team, a title, a budget, a salary, power, corporate hospitality, that goes. The reality is there may be some afterburn on that, you still get to do some fun things if you work in marketing. It's a fun zone and there's always stuff around, but you no longer have status. And that is a, that is definitely a thing. And I said one of the greatest benefits of me taking quite a bit of time sequencing into this was I was more used to that idea. I mean, if I told you that, like I clicked my fingers and suddenly I didn't even notice that I didn't have a team or a title or a budget, I'd be a bloody liar. The second thing is if you like leading teams, that's gone. You can help people who are leading teams, but if that's your drug, and it was for me then I, I definitely notice not leading a big team. Now I've hoodwinked myself on this one to say that it's not the same post covid. There isn't just as much chemistry and connection and leaning in, engagement perhaps as there used to be. I'm probably just doing that for my own benefit. I'm sure it's not universally true, but, nonetheless, it is a thing that, you will miss leading a team where. the daily ins and outs, the deeper relationships in my case, I think I've got multiple senses of belonging across different things, but none is as deep and as a result, and this is taken from somebody else. You don't get to crush it like you would if all you cared about for six months was one thing, and then it came to fruition. You didn't get to crush it like that. But then again, if you can get over the status thing, then there's as much satisfaction in helping 10, 20, 50 people crush it. So there's a trade, And I think this links to your article. I think when you are really in an exploratory phase in your career, then I can see the attraction. Once you're into the flow of your career, there are more risks to it. There are risks in going too young. Because what are you? Are you a specialist? Are you a generalist? Have you maxed out your accelerated trajectory in where you are now? Will you be able to rejoin elegantly if it doesn't all work out? And then there comes a time, which was the case for me. When as you get older, you've accumulated more knowledge and wisdom And so that transfer of. Knowledge and value through accumulated wisdom is genuinely a thing. You just have that sage, that experience, which means that you can across many different contexts, get to the problem quickly, understand what the options would be. Understand, what needs to be true to make this situation a success. Call it instinct or wisdom or experience. There's no doubt that the more of that you have, the more valuable you are to other people who, don't have the playbook. There's lots of upsides. There are a few downsides to be aware of, and it's not for everybody. Your DILTS, your neurological levels of change, your ladder that I talked about is a pretty good clue as to whether it's the kind of thing that's gonna float your boat. If you want to be a really deep expert and lead big teams, if these are the things that are coming up through your skills, values, behaviors, et cetera and environments, then it's probably not for you.
Kathryn:So I have a portfolio career at the moment as well. I don't think it's something that I'll do forever. It's something that fits me at the moment because it allows me to experiment with different things. It also allows me to like take some more time off for myself, but I know that, when I am ready to crush it again, probably the best place to crush it is gonna be with one organization where, you know, I can go all in, give it everything that I've got and like really go big. I think there's a time and a place for it as well, but it's definitely not for all stages of your career. So if you do really want to crush it, if you really wanna maybe have that status or lead the big team, then it's not gonna help you to do that. But on the other hand, it does allow you to be true to yourself and have your fingers in lots of different pies and try lots of different things. But yeah, it's definitely not for everybody. And I do see a lot of people jumping into it at the moment without, properly considering whether or not they should be. like fractionals are really big in the moment, whether or not they should be a fractional C-suite. And I think it's coming back to those objectives, does it really fit where you are or do you feel like you have to do the fractional because the job market shit and you're having a hard time finding a role? You know, is it part of your long term plan and this is what you're gonna do? Or is it more a part of your short term game? How do you start to build a portfolio career if you've decided that this is what you want to do?
Mark:Yeah. you've covered a lot of really great stuff there. to an extent, all of us at some point will be a bit portfolio. whether that's one or two side hustles or as we get a bit older, we may want a trustee role or a volunteering role or a, school governor role or something. So I always say to people, as soon as you've had the thought, the process has started. I think practicing what I preach to think of it as a sequential journey, which chimes with what you said, which is if you lurch into it, it might be deeply unfulfilling. It might not be for you and it may be ineffective. I always tell people that, if you're thinking about it, start now. And that might be the smallest possible extra side hustle or extra role or something just to start to give you proof of concept that you find it enjoyable, but also it makes you better in your core role. I vehemently believe that. I was always into side hustles and really strongly encouraged anybody that ever worked for me to have side hustles, 'cause I do think it makes you better. So maybe the first point to land is get a proof of concept get started. if it's a sequential journey, start now. practically speaking, it's just such a massive cliche, but it's so much about networking. if less than 50% of jobs ever hits search firms, and if LinkedIn is so incredibly overpopulated How am I gonna cut through? And the reality is, I think more than 50% of jobs come through, networking may never even be advertised. Some people have a bit of an allergic reaction to networking, but it is kind of a necessity. Statistically it's your best shot of landing next job. I'm a big fan of being very pointy and deliberate about who you choose to meet.'cause the cliches do a 50 coffees or a hundred coffees, but being very deliberate about who you would want to meet and how that creates expanding possibilities and then making sure your network grows exponentially. making sure you never leave a networking conversation without at least one more contact. And the reality is, and this is probably a big point to land, I think networking is massively misunderstood in terms of what the value exchange is. So often people think like it's a bit heavy, it's a bit burdensome. What the hell are they gonna get out of it how can I be impressive enough? Why would they wanna gimme their time? But what if this was the value exchange as the advisor or the mentor, or the. Coffee receiver. I give the mentee, great advice, practical stuff, frameworks, shortcuts, opportunities, whatever it is. As the recipient, you get loads of practical things, useful things, and that operates in one part of the brain, the functional part of the brain. But then what's going on the other side? The person who's giving this advice. It's getting validation, a sense of worth, a good feeling about being helpful. We're talking about a neurochemical here. Endorphins a chemical high. That is a much more powerful thing than all the functional stuff neurologically. So this is why some people mentoring say, it's funny. I feel like I'm getting more out of it than I'm giving. Yeah, you are.'cause you're getting a higher order neuro hit. And I think that's quite liberating because then you can say, The more I'm getting, even more they're getting, and it's a reframe because you're actually being quite generous in allowing people to get a really nice neurochemical hit from being useful. And it's easy for them because they're only talking about stuff they know already and they've probably told a thousand times. But I think that maybe gets over the taboo or the insecurity or the feeling of doubt that I'm being selfish.
Kathryn:My one piece of advice for anybody job searching is to ask for coffees. whether it's the beginning of your career, your more senior networking plays such a big role in it. I've built my whole entire career really, and my company's success through networking and Just reaching out and asking for a coffee is not really gonna hurt you. the worst case is they say no or they don't respond, but like, you're not gonna be any worse off than you are now. And most people are gonna say yes because most people, like you say, Enjoy helping others. We also remembered when we asked somebody for a coffee and they took the time and they helped support us. So I normally take coffees with like more junior people as a way to give back because I remember that people who gave back to me through my career journey. Almost everything I do now and everything that I have done has been done through my network. There's a really great saying that your network is your net worth, and I think that's really true. So before we wrap up, is there any final advice for people who are looking to build a portfolio career or to our listeners in general?
Mark:Yeah, start early as in proof of concept. use DILTS as a framework. Along the way. Really enjoy it because. you'll miss it when it's all gone but yeah, really value the key points. And then a final thought, which is really framed my whole career, and it's not specific to portfolio, but I think it directly relates. On the night of my graduation in 1995, out for a celebratory meal in a pretty low rent curry house in Nottingham City Center. the ceremony of graduation should be more memorable, but for one very specific reason, it wasn't. And that's because my best friend, Matt, his dad, Pete, asked if he could say a few words and this is not a champagne sort of joint. But anyway, and he said this, he said, as I look before you, I'm jealous. And the reason I'm jealous is 'cause from this position, you can achieve almost anything in the world. But at the same time, I pity you and the reason I pity you is because for 20 years you'll go in search of success and then after 20 years you'll realize when maybe sadly your best years are gone. That it's not about success, it's about significance. But the really smart people figure out how to achieve success and significance simultaneously. And so that, affected all of us that were there, it certainly affected me. And so my lifelong quest has really been to understand, what is success and what is significance and what's the intersection of the two? And in some of the things I've done where I think I've really nailed that, it's a space of tremendous resourcefulness, creativity, opportunity, potential heat, energy. And so my main piece of advice to myself and to anybody is just be really clear on what success looks like without ego, what does success look like, but also what's the equivalent significance and what's the marriage of the two that I think will provide for a more fulfilled and more successful life?
Kathryn:I think that's a really good note to end on and something that really resonates with me as well. Thank you so much for being on the show today and sharing all your great insights and wisdom. It's been fantastic to have you on.
Mark:Thank you, Kathryn. Pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
Kathryn:That's a wrap for this episode of Marketers Unleash. Thank you for tuning in and diving deep with us into the unleashed world of marketing. We hope you're leaving with fresh insights, new ideas, and maybe even a few aha moments to feel your next big move. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss a new episode. And hey, we'd love to hear from you. Drop us a review or connect with us on LinkedIn to share your thoughts and join in the conversation. Until next time, keep thinking bold, challenging the norms, and unleashing your inner marketer. After all, what's the worst that'll happen? I'm your host, Kathryn Strachan, over an out.