S2 Ep 05 - Prem Power Plays & Player Pains

A rebel league selling glitz and “player IP,” a beloved flanker facing MND, and a Prem weekend that swung on packs, pressure, and poise—this one has layers. We open the hood on R360’s promises and ask the only questions that matter: who sanctions it, who plays when international camps clash, and who still cares after the marketing burn wears off. Pre‑contracts aren’t contracts, and IP only pays if the audience is real. Best case, it nudges the established game to modernise; worst case, it’s noise with a sunset.

Then the shock: Lewis Moody’s diagnosis. We sit with the grief and look honestly at rugby’s risk ledger—what has changed, what hasn’t, and how far duty of care must go. From smart mouthguards to HIAs, the sport is moving, but it’s not enough to say “that was then.” Players aren’t content; they’re people with futures. Support the MND causes and keep the pressure on the system to do right.

On the pitch, Bath’s forwards drove a wet-weather masterclass while Arundell sharpened his edges and Spencer ran the show. George Ford reminded everyone that one decision, perfectly executed, can flip a match. Exeter look tidier; Newcastle are learning on the job with a long horizon. Leicester turned 19–0 into a bonus-point win as Quins’ platform cracked again. Saracens were ruthless: Tom Willis carried with intent and Jack Bracken announced himself with fearless defence and clean finishing. Bristol’s injury list tells its own story. At Kingsholm, Gloucester’s first-half fragility met Saints’ grit and late-game calm; new combinations need time, but fundamentals can’t wait.

Derby Weekend now looms: Sharks–Falcons, Bristol–Exeter, Saints–Tigers, Bath–Gloucester, and Quins–Saracens. We call the match-ups, highlight where games will be won—set-piece, breakdown, defensive shape—and draw a line between hype and habits. If you’re here for straight talk on rugby’s future and the details that decide matches, you’re in the right place. If this resonated, tap follow, share with a mate, and leave a review—what did we get right, and what did we miss?

🎧 Thanks for tuning in to the Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls Podcast!

📲 Stay connected with us on social media for behind-the-scenes content, hot takes, and episode updates:

• Instagram: @rucksmaulsovalballs
• Twitter/X: @RMOB_Rugby
• TikTok: @rmob_rugby
• YouTube: Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls Podcast

📬 Got a question, comment, or just want to rant about your club’s form?
Email us at: RucksMaulsOvalBalls@outlook.com

Transcript

Opening Banter & Lions’ Big Win

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome, it's Rux Bulls Hello. We're back with episode five of season two, and it is the Fans Favourite Luffy Podcast host, talking on the Fans Favourite Luffy Podcast. It's me, Dave, joined as ever by Rr Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener. Oh, hello, listeners. Hello, David. How are you? I'm doing pretty good, Rory. I'm doing pretty good indeed. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Uh yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty cheerful after my weekend, all things considered. No way. Maulden, the home of the mud race. Correct. And sea salt.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

And the sea salt. Wow, that is a prestigious victory for the Lions. What was the score? 57 nil. Nilar as well. Wow. We nilden. And uh your personal performance, how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Pretty good, I'd say. I mean, it was a lot of we effectively turned up with a type five with an average weight of I'd say about 125 kilos.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Fantastic. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

And some of us topping out, you know, quite a bit above that. So uh we uh we would we just powered them. Apps just it was just one of those days when before the match we went, we we just want to make their day absolutely miserable, and we managed it. It was delightful. One for the purist, yeah. Uh there were some good tries, there were some good tries, but um we made the scrums and malls particularly horrible places to be, and that was enjoyable for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So basically you knackered out their packs so much that they couldn't be bothered to defend, so you managed to score some real flashy stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Pretty much, pretty much, you know, a bit of an old school game plan, but you know, it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

It's effective. And you know, is that is that the first victory under your stewardship?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Uh second, but uh we're um we're well on our way now. Um, you know, I think a League and Cup double is what I'm aiming for, and uh we're on course.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Well, you have uh lofty expectations, and I'm sure you'll deliver. Uh when we get to the end of the season, then if you happen to have not delivered on your promises, will you be stepping down as captain? Or is it too early to say?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I don't want to make sweeping statements um too early on in the season, but yes, if I don't achieve uh a League and Cup double, I'll be committing uh Harry Carey on the podcast itself.

Setting Today’s Agenda

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I will hold you to that, and you know I will. Fantastic. Well, happy days. I'm very, very happy that the Lions have got a victory under their belt. A mighty 67-nil win. Against Mauled. Oh that gets the juices flowing, Rory. But this podcast, we're gonna move on from that victory. Even though we've given it the pedestal it deserves, there's been some other rugby this weekend and some other stuff going on that probably deserves a bit of attention. We're gonna do a couple of updates to some rugby news, Rory. And then we're going deep, deep, deep into Prem Rugby after another weekend of scintillating rugby what's the right word here? Scintillating rugby Exhibitions. Exhibitions. Let's let's go with exhibitions. Um but let's start off with a couple of bits of news. So, first of all, there's been a little bit of noise coming out of Mike Tinderland friends uh around R360.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Um our favourite prospective Rebel League.

R360 League Hype Examined

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yeah. And I feel like it's a good time to perhaps talk again around this, because there's been a couple of things going on. Um Latest I'm aware of Rory is uh kind of had confirmation via Pat Lamb that Reese Samit's been approached. Uh we've seen that Ellie Kildun's spoken about giving it serious consideration. Uh we've had the update from the IRPA, the International Rugby Players Association, effectively trying to dis distance themselves from it, which you kind of would expect, but basically saying any player under their contracts not endorsed to join that league. Uh there's talk of the format, talk of 200 players already signed on pre-contracts. What do you make of all this noise, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 3:57

I mean, a lot of smoke and mirrors. I mean, so the uh I believe it's tied up to the Abu Dhabi rugby union.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

It's it's going to be registered via the United Arab Emirates Rugby Federation, that well-established, well-respected rugby federation, respected across the country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Well, you know, there's if there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that um a sports competition backed by a theocratic oil state is one that we can, you know, we can support. Um, that's the sort of thing that we really like as a uh as sporting fans, and it's and it's gone down a storm in every other sport it's happened in.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Um you know it's going to be backed on meritocracy and meritocracy alone, surely.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Of course, of course. Uh yeah, I mean, you know, they've they've made some some flashy announcements about locations: London, Miami, Tokyo, Dubai, Boston, Cape Town, Lisbon, Madrid. Um they've got a launch date for the 2nd of August next year. They say they have 200 players on, very specifically, what they're saying is pre-contracted agreements, which is nothing is agreed. Yeah, effectively, a loose statement of intent that if this all comes off, they might sign a contract. Yeah. Um, effectively, Mike Tyndall's gone around the world and said to 200 players on the off chance this happens, and we offer you 750,000 pounds to come play this competition. Would you be interested? They've gone, yeah. Yeah, sure. Okay, that'll that'll you know, if it's that much money, sure. Yeah, yeah. Um obviously a little disappointing to see Ellie Kildone give this real credence, but um, you know, the money-making opportunities are even more limited in the women's game than they are in the men's game at the moment, so I can't you can't necessarily blame her for for um considering career out of it, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, of course, of course. So, you know, that's that's to be understood, if not necessarily endorsed. Yeah, um the big thing them they're making about this is that the players will own their IP.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

I guess with the idea being that you could then market yourself more or make more money uh from your own, obviously your own image rights.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Um, which is great in theory, but does rely on this being a runaway success that generates vast marketing opportunities for the players involved, which I think is less certain.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, I'm not sure this competition is going to be a springboard all of a sudden for 200 rugby players to then create a IP network that is going to be significantly larger than it would be perhaps continuing to play professional rugby as where they currently.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, look, I mean I would be astounded if world rugby end up approving this. Particularly now the IRPA have said they're not endorsing it.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I think the odds, the odds of world rugby going against that are not impossible but slim. Um my gut feel is if even if this does get off the ground, there'll be what 10, 15 recognizable names who go for it, which would be a shame.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Uh and then there'll be a mix of uh probably older players who think, well, this is one last payday, so we'll go and do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

And you know, their international opportunities are like to be limited, if not impossible, anyway. So they may just take up the opportunity at that point. And players no one really knows from you know some of the some of the reach of the world where they're playing, you know. There are a lot of players playing in the likes of you know the lower leagues in France, the Japanese leagues, uh, the US, for a you know, to a to a lesser extent, that you know, good players, but not not world stars, and I I think you know that they're they're more likely to be the sort of the sort that goes into this kind of competition.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

This for me is where this whole format falls down. Yes, you might get a headline name like Lewis Reese Amit. But a Lewis Reese Samet on his own with 14 journeyman rugby players perhaps, isn't going to be an electrifying spectacle for the casual rugby fan that they're going to be targeting. Are is there gonna be 20, 30, 40,000 people in the city of Lisbon who want to come and watch a Welshman run up and down the wing a couple of times and a bunch of people they've never heard of play rugby in the middle?

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I well, no. No, ultimately. I don't I just don't think this gets off the ground. Even if they get a season or two out of it, I just don't think it goes anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yeah, it does feel a bit of a flash in the pan. Uh perhaps a someone behind the scenes with probably more money than sense is just doing this as a bit of a whim, a bit of fun. Uh they'll realise it won't make any money, and then we'll probably not hear much about it after that. May best case scenario, it forces some of the more established leagues to have a maybe a little bit of a rethink, maybe on the contracts, because there's no there's nothing to say that all the clubs across the world can change their approach to IP with their players. Then immediately R360 loses one of its key selling points to the players. Maybe maybe it may drive some change in that sense, which yeah, fair play. That might be good. But I don't see it taking over all of World's Rugby's um premier rugby competition. Especially considering I think I saw in 2027 they plan on running the competition in a rugby world cup year through September. Which correct me if I'm wrong, Rory, is quite a key month in a World Cup year.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Well, it it is. Um I mean that may change depending on how they rain. I don't I don't know that we know the exact dates of that World Cup yet, but what it definitely does is means it will go across all of the international teams training camps which happen across that summer.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

So the those unions aren't gonna select those players. No. So you're you are what even if it doesn't strictly clash with a fixture, you are in effect ruling yourself out because you won't be able to attend the training camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Player IP, Money, and Reality

SPEAKER_00 9:54

So lots of noise, lots of smoke and mirrors, Rory. It does still feel like a lot of marketing spin to try and make something bigger than what it probably actually is in reality right now. What it turns into, we'll probably still hear more about it. I I think something will happen, uh, and it will be yeah. I I I don't have high hopes for this uh going too.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

It's it's a it's a lot of PR. In uh in old fashioned parlance, it's all fart no poo.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

There's the headline for the social media clip, R360, all fart no poo. I'm gonna edit that and we're going to enjoy Below the line the comments we'll get. But moving on from that slightly more sombering obviously Lewis Moody's come out this week talking about really fresh news he's received around having uh motor neurodisease diagnosis. Uh really sadly something we're getting quite familiar with within the sport, obviously, with the likes of Ed Slater, Rob Burrow, and Rugby League, Doddy Weir. Um it just makes you think, like, because it's the probably the scariest thing that you could try and put yourself in the shoes of. Like is is is a scary old disease. Um and I thought it'd be good to talk about that as well as talk about the 745 game that's coming up, uh, which is kind of the the charity game that was set up last year where it's League and Union players who come together and play a half of League Rules, half of Union Rules, all for the charities aimed at kind of motor neuron disease charities.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Uh which is a great, a great um initiative and really look really well supported and and you know, like a lot of fun to go and watch, and you know, I would certainly be looking out for ways to to support that.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Um the Lewis Moody news is a proper, proper punch in the gut. Um you know, for for blokes our age in particular, you know, he is uh he is a staple of rugby memories, you know, mad dog as he was, and I know and I think it's a lesson that you know we know that players, particularly in that era, the sort of early-ish professionalism era before things um when when people players got bigger, but the support systems weren't there and the the duty of care almost certainly wasn't there. Sadly, that we we're just gonna have to um accept, I think, um, that those players played a level of risk that was unacceptable. And you know, obviously as fans we didn't know it at the time, and we celebrated Lewis Moody for being the kind of player who put his head where you where you wouldn't put your feet. Yeah. Um I saw the story of uh so I I forget who reported it, but they said they'd they'd had a conversation with him um about uh a time when he played for England, he was knocked out cold twice in one game and was allowed to play 80 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah.

Will World Rugby Approve It?

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Um, you know, it's it's in terms of duty of care of personnel, it's just not good enough from well from the RFU in this case, and you know, the there's obviously a lawsuit going on that involves World Rugby and all of the major unions, I believe. Um and the evidence is pretty overwhelming. There's a similar similar lawsuit happening in rugby league as well. Um it's it's 100%, you know, the first foremost and almost entirely, it's just awful for Lewis and his family, because he's just he is such a hero of you know, certainly of mine, I'm sure of yours, pretty much of any England rugby fan and and fans of rugby from from beyond England as well, just for the way he the way he played the game, um the bravery of the man. Um and then on top of that, it's it's awful because of the it makes you have to stop and take stock of the implications of of this sport that we love. Um and it's it's difficult to it's sometimes difficult to reconcile um, I think, with certain sports. Rugby is not the only one, but it's obviously the one that we we talk about. It's difficult to reconcile the harm these sports can cause the people who play them with the enjoyment we get out of playing and and watching them. You know, boxing's obviously a prime example, you know. For some it would be the likes of the UFC, um, NFL, you know, whatever it is. There is something primal that draws us to these sports, but the implications to to some of the players are just so dreadful, then you know it is difficult to reconcile that, I think, in your head. And I haven't really been able to do that. Um, you know, all we can really say is you know how much we we love watching Lewis play, and we obviously wish him and his family the best, and you know, hopefully they get the the best support possible in in this time. Um, but what it means for the sport as a whole, um it's hard to say, really.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, it it it it is really hard to reconcile. I know I I think on Lewis Moody, all you have to do is just listen to how everyone who knows him's come out and spoke about him or tell you the sort of man he is, um and how loved he is, um, and how much it's probably shocked a lot of people. It is it is shocking. Um it's humbling, it makes you really take stock and think about things. As you say, like we we sit here in our chairs talking about this sport that we love but sometimes we forget that the players are people, they've got lives outside of the sport, they've got lives after the sport, and then uh you can see why so much work is done now by the RPA to kind of look after players and make sure that they've they're set up outside of the sport. But you do think like what what more's gonna come out from that generation of players that, as you say, crossed that that professionalism edge where players became physical beasts but the the support behind it remained in traditional and unprofessional.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

It's it's uh it's it's I think it's gonna be a very bitter pill to swallow for the powers that be, but I think it's it's gonna be a necessary one. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

And I think they they they should accept that that is what went on, and we need to make right by the players where we can, where where is where it's possible. Uh try and put things in place to minimize it as much as possible. Like one one thing I often thought is why why don't they just make it mandatory? And I know it doesn't mitigate at all. Just make all players wear scrum caps. I know it doesn't it's even if it's a five percent less chance of a head injury.

“All Fart, No Poo” Verdict

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I thought it's I don't I mean I don't know the science, but I I my understanding is that scrum caps do next to nothing to but I even it's one percent. I don't yeah, I mean I say I don't even know if it's if it does that. I mean most of what scrum caps do is prevent abrasions. Um they obviously have uh in a lot of cases introduced mandatory um mouth guards that measure force impact. Um a lot of clubs, I know Gloucester have been very involved. There, Quinns, I think, did as well. I think they may be mandatory across some of the leagues as well now.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, no, there was this this weekend where I can't remember what player it was, but the mouth guard was started flashing red, so the ref said you have to go off for HIA. Um you have to take out the players' hands, yeah, absolutely. Uh and that's the way it should be. Uh ultimately, just yeah, awful, awful news. All thoughts with Lewis Moody and his family. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Uh entirely independently. This you know, a few weeks ago I found myself uh thinking about Rob Burrow, and I I you know I if anyone wants to or anyone who's been particularly affected by this or is particularly sad by this, I would highly encourage for a very bittersweet moment, but one that's very poignant, is to listen to Rob Burrow's final uh final message as it was uh played out across uh across networks after his death um that he recorded.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Because it will grant you some really good perspective, and um, you know, obviously he's one of the big uh figures in in this fight against MND and one that you know shouldn't shouldn't be forgotten in it as for the player he was either. Um but I would I would recommend going and watching that if uh if it's you know if there's something you you're having to reconcile with yourselves.

Lewis Moody’s MND Diagnosis

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's very poignant, but it does definitely help. I I often think, Rory, if if this podcast was ever to move into a charitable endeavour, I I think that's certainly a space I'd like to point us towards if we ever did get into that into that sort of world where we do something charitable, but uh uh watch this space perhaps. Uh and it's always tricky to move on from a topic like that in a conversation because we're gonna go from that and then start talking about the sport that is uh kind of behind all this dreadful stuff. But we'll try and lift spirits, we'll try and lift the mood a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

But yeah, well let's let's let's let's talk a few games because uh uh it there were some excellent games at the weekend, and I think that's a good opportunity to segue into the cheer everyone up again.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, yeah. So apologies, listener, if we have uh brought you down. And if you are in any way particularly affected, our DMs are open. We're happy to chat. Yeah, reach out. Uh we're we uh we're not afraid to talk, and we'll happily listen to anyone. Uh but yes, moving on. Prem rugby round two commence this weekend. And we'll do what we did last weekend. We'll just go chronologically, Rory. We'll start Friday, we'll end Sunday, because we all know what the Sunday fixture was. Um Bath versus Sale.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Game played and a monsoon.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

A game played and a monsoon. And as someone who lives relatively local to Bath, when I went out for the dog walk post-watching the game, it was particularly horrible out there. So fair play to the crowd and the players for putting on the show. Um I think the the the main thing that I wanted to draw attention to, and it's uh mainly back off of off the back of some of our criticism last week on a certain Mr. Henry Arundel. I I saw signs of improvement already in his defensive game and his highball game, which I was, you know, I'm willing to hold my hands up, backtrack and say fair play, because in those challenging conditions, he did a pretty good job.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

No, I think I think that's a fair, I think that's a fair point, and we should we should cop to I think you know, I think I don't think our criticism last week was unfair from his performance. Um, but you know, if you're gonna criticise a player, you should absolutely highlight when they uh when they show obvious improvements and and play particularly well. And yeah, I have to say Arundale was um was impressive in a challenging game, and his his score early on was obviously uh a real showcase of his pace. Um nice to see Ollie Lawrence linking up with him as well, although I think I've got the impression he's maybe not quite going full full clip just yet, uh scary because he's he's still looking pretty pretty quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I think there's more to come out of that from him as he gets back to full fitness. But uh yeah, no, I thought Arundel and uh the high ball in defence, a massive, massive improvement on week one. Um and I sus I would imagine in no small part to um direct intervention by the coaches, and I expect they'll keep doing that because the I mean what you have to accept with Arundel is if he can build a solid, if not excellent, defensive and high ball game, he is potentially a phenom.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah, full package.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean he regathered one off his own kick at one point, and it was he just sort of seemed to come out of nowhere, just gathered it. I was just looking, Christ is where has he come from?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Well, and and to think, I think I think his opposing winger, I might be wrong, but I think his opposing winger for most of that game was Tom Roebuck, who he completely shut out from that game. He he Tom Robert was kept very quiet, which doesn't happen very often. Again, granted, very tricky conditions to use wingers, but you know, Sale have George Ford, probably the best fly half in the game, to utilize a crossfield kick and get the ball to the wingers quickly, and they weren't able to do it, and Harry Arundel played his part in that. Uh I also think it's probably worth mentioning once again that Bath Pack, pretty impressive still.

Duty of Care and Risk in Rugby

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think Sale had to measure them at scrum time, Bevan Rodder against Billy Seller. Yeah, that was a bit of a bit of a trial by fire. That yeah, and to be fair, Ashrapoca for journe against Benoarbano, I think you've got the upper hand there as well. Um, but around the around the pitch, unreal. Just even even that sale pack couldn't contain Bath. It's I mean, which is scary when you think Sail are one of maybe two packs you'd think have got a good chance of putting of putting that Bath pack, you know, on his on his heels, and they just couldn't stop them.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, yeah. It it is uh what's the word? It's a bit daunting to think that you know Bath are building and the the fact that they're they're strengthening that team constantly, players that they've got to come back, the way they play. Uh I suppose a small bit of news I saw recently is that Thomas DeToy is going to be leaving this next summer. So yeah, headman's the Sharks by accounts. Yes. Um but it's just I it's that that forward pack is the envy of the league. I I have some thoughts on another team who I think may be looking to compete, but I'll touch on that when we get to their game. Um but I suppose a really uh untraditional segue from a forward pack to George Ford, how about his performance in those conditions with the drop goals?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I mean, George Ford in George Ford's brilliant in all conditions. We know that, and we talk about this a lot because we are unavowed George Ford fans.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Yeah, well, I think we've spoken about him a few times.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah. Um I mean the drop goal from halfway, having just been robbed of what should have been a five-meter scrum.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Just to just to turn the, you know, because it's not just the fact that he did that, which in and of itself, in those conditions, from that distance, is ridiculous. Just the ability to do that is outrageous, and so beyond anything I can comprehend. I literally don't even know how you do that. How do you pick a ball that far when you're that size? Yeah, I don't know. But also, because they had just been robbed of you know what should have been a five-minute scrum, which would have been, you know, their real opportunity to um to put some major pressure on Bath, just turns the energy of that game, you know, for for sale. And it's you know, obviously, ultimately it didn't it didn't make a difference in terms of the result, but he just has those kind of interventions that are just like force multipliers on a team.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Yeah, yeah. I I think there's no other flyoff in the league that would make that decision other than George Ford. And to then execute it.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah, I mean that's I mean that's the thing. I mean, there's making the decision, there's executing it, is the is that's the real thing, isn't it? It's you know, it's not like he was straight in front, it was at an angle 45 plus metres away, and he just didn't even and it had legs, you know, he probably had another five metres on it.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, exactly. Uh yeah, I suppose we we could lax lyrical about George Ford for quite a while. Um we should probably avoid doing that because there's a few other games to talk about. I suppose uh another angle to look at on this game, obviously Bath been running these first two rounds with a Jomo at ten, basically running with three centres, playing centre roles. It's been quite an interesting take. They've not looked like they've missed having Finn Russell, they've been able to still play a bit of rugby. I think a lot of it is condition-based, and it's a lot of it's coming from Ben Spencer more so than anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, I mean, effectively, they've abdicated control to Ben Spencer. I mean, I I noted in here that the first real mention of a Jomo was about 23, 24 minutes into the game. He just wasn't involved up to that point.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

You know, it's just so we're definitely not we're not we are not seeing the best of Max Ojomo in the 10 shirt, but he's doing a job.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Oh, he's doing and he's doing a grand job. And you know, let's not forget he scored a really good try. I mean, his finish to get that down in that space time, you know, it's a short in-goal area. If anyone's been to the wreck, they know it's a short in-goal area there.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

That is, and it was he was going at full pelt. I was uh, you know, I thought um no, I thought it was a fantastic finish, but yeah, this this game was marshalled by Ben Spencer and George Ford.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

It was definitely but I would also say that Max Chomo did also get a phenomenal 50-22.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

He did, he did, to be fair, and that you could see the the delight on his face when he realised, oh, I've just done a 50-22, I'm I'm a fly off. I'm a fly off, I could do this. He genuinely looked very pleased with himself, which was quite nice to see.

Tech, HIAs, and Safety Culture

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Um, I mean it shows his all-round skill set as well, which would have interested other parties, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I although he although we aren't seeing the best of a joma, I think his stock is rising doing this because I think it is, as you say, displaying that he is more than just a sidestepper or a crash ball 12-13. He has got more to his game, he's a clever rugby player. Um so I don't think it's doing his uh his England chances any any damage. I mean, I I think he'll have to be involved. He's got to be. He's got to be after the summer and after how he started the season. He's got to be in in or around the squad. But I bet I imagine he's looking forward to getting back next to Ollie Lawrence with Finn Russell inside him and Henry Arundel running off him. I imagine he's looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

It it must be such a nice feeling to be a back outside of Finn Russell, just knowing that you've got someone who's gonna be a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

It must be a nice feeling to be a back. I wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Well, yeah, so it's alien, alien enough to me as it is. Yeah, yeah. Um getting more into our bread and butter of uh the types of players that we do understand. Uh Wilgriff John, do we think he was really, really keen to get a yellow card?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

It felt like he was doing everything in his power to make sure Sale didn't get any points. Uh yeah. Not one, but twice just being stupid.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Well, arguably three times, because he actually didn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Yeah, yeah, two goes at one as well, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

So uh yeah, uh it's just a squat just a mad thing to but thinks you can't say it's you can't say it's a brain fade because he's done it, as you say, three times. It looked like he was just deliberately trying to hurt a Bath player, yeah. Um just which is just stupid. And I really I I imagine he is getting more than enough earache from uh Mr. Sanderson. Uh but I will happily pile on and say to Wilgriff John, what on earth are you thinking, mate? Because I think there were there was a route back for sale there to uh try and at least get a bonus point.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Well, they were in the bath 22, so you had an opportunity to put some pressure on, but no, he put paid to that. Um absolutely. Um I mean a couple of other moments I think worth worth talking about. Uh Underhill's shot on Marius Lowe. Um I think he made yeah, yeah. Yeah. On debut, and you have your kidneys dislodged by um a mutant. An excess set missile in the name of Sam Underhill.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Loved it. And just another reason to love Sam Underhill, just pure violence.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I still stand by I think he is the best tackler in the game, full stop.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, I mean, there's a good shout for that. I can't, you know, I wouldn't off the top of my head, I couldn't think of a better a more aggressive hitter at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah. Um and his technique is on as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Like well, I'm sure they'll we'll get some some gyp from uh from South Africa for not remembering one of their players.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

But I get it, I get it. There's players in the Southern Hemisphere that can tackle two, fine.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah, but I can't I mean I genuinely, in terms of technical excellence and violence and power, I think he's the best. Um but the the man he replaced, Guy Pepper, how many turnovers at key times did he get?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Again, another one got to be involved in the England squad.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Rise in stock, isn't it?

Turning to Premiership Rugby

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, it's probably. Probably for another podcast when we get onto the international window, but the England squad options at the moment in multiple positions is probably in the best position I can ever recall it being in. Back row being a very obvious one. Guy Pepper being a very obvious candidate for being in a the scary thing is three or four or five of them are all from Bath, let alone the all the other ones at the other clubs. Um sad to see Ted Hill go off with what look like another injury. He does seem to pick them up quite frequently. Hopefully that's not a recurring thing. Um injuries seem to be a recurring thing through the league at the moment as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Perhaps we can touch on that and we'll certainly touch on that for a few teams, I think. But uh yeah, but I you know, all in all, I thought just an all-round, very professional, very efficient, and very um daunting performance from from Bath this week. Um against a sale, yeah, against the sale team that I think we both probably thought were least could gonna be competitive with them.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Uh also, what do you make of Martin Gleason coming in to replace Lee Blackett, who is uh Red Roses bound, not red roses bound, but you know, bound for England.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

For England, yeah, uh feels like a good appointment. Um I know he's very well regarded, people very well regarded in the in the rugby league world. He obviously um worked with England under Eddie Jones briefly. Um and from memory, I think he was pretty well talked about at the time. Obviously, didn't quite work out, yeah. Um, but that may be more to do with Eddie Jones than anything else. Perhaps. Um I yeah, feel it feels like a good appointment to me. I mean, time time will tell, but something in the fact that they've picked up another former Bath attack coach, uh not former Wasps attack coach, I should say. Um, in similar to Lee Blackett, you know, content. I don't know how similar their their approach will be, but you know, that feels like they're at least thinking about this in a way of how can we make this as seamless transition as possible.

Bath v Sale: Arundell Steps Up

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, as an aside, very happy with uh Lee Blackett getting permanent role with the England set up. We saw what he did in the Sun of Argentina, talk of Byron McGwigga, talk of Byron McGwigan also following suit, which we kind of that's apparently yeah, that's that deal's almost done, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Um yeah, I I think uh I think it's a really good appointment from from England. Um, but yeah, from a Bath perspective, obviously disappointed is Lou Blackett, who's super well regarded. But I think Martin Gleason would be a good appointment for them. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Now that's probably a helpful segue to our next fixture uh between Exeter and Newcastle. And before I actually move on, that game ended 28-16 to Bath, if anyone wasn't aware. Bonus point victory for Bath, no points for sale. But the next game, Exeter versus Newcastle, whilst we're talking coaches, and before we get into that game.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Steve Diamond, show him the door. Yeah. Thoughts? Uh weird, weird, weird timing. Uh weird to have done it now, uh, weird to have done it in that way. Um no word from Steve Diamond since then. So look, we'd we'd only be speculating as to the as to the reasons why. But the honest answer is I can't short of him having done something unforgivable, which seems unlikely to be, I can't really see a good justification for doing it now.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Um, I I can't figure it out either, because if they had someone in mind, wait till they're ready to join, because obviously they're obviously they're not ready to join yet. Uh just let him see it out until the new person comes in and takes over. Uh why do it one week into a competition? Um why do it 20 minutes after sending him out to do media duties?

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Um my only slight um potential thought on it is that uh he did not want Gregor Townsend involved. Well, perhaps. But But that's that's the only thing I can gen genuinely that's the only thing I can really think of. Um because even if you think he's not your man for the long term, what's the value in leave in chopping him now before the end of the season, leaving yourself without without someone in that position?

SPEAKER_00 34:04

It seems it seems bizarre to chop a coach with Steve Diamond's you know record credibility for the sake of Gregor Townsend, who's going to be dipping his toes in every now and then in between Scotland duties. Uh yeah, he's doing 30 days a year.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I mean I've seen reports today that um they're already discussing the likes of Ben White coming in um and targeting England players in the top 14.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Uh would make sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah, so Joe Marchant is his contract's up at the end of the season with Staff Francais. But obviously, there are a number of very uh high profile England players. One, Mr. Jacques Willis, was named the top 14 player of the year this week. Um, whether Newcastle have the pull for that kind of player, time will tell. But um Tom Willis as well being talked about, he's up he's out of contract at the end of the season.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Um yeah, there's talk of talk of that or uh him returning to France as well, isn't there? Uh apparently his name's being banded around top 14 clubs as well. Which would be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Channel can himself being um sh is shopping around apparently.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, heard the same, heard the same. Uh it's an interesting time, Rory. It's an interesting time.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Um But it's it feels it does feel like a little bit of the goodwill's come out of the sales.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

A little bit, you know, it it takes uh a little reminder, being brought back down to earth from you know having your wings clipped when you go to Sandy Park and get a little bit of uh well, it's not stuffing, but you know, it's not stuffing, I mean it's comfortably well beaten.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

It was comfortable for Exeter, and if we're honest, this was not a brilliant game.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

No, not there's not a lot to talk about in this game if if I was not those.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

I think the only things worth really talking about in this game was uh the power of Manny Feua Boso in the for that first try. Yeah. Uh from that standing start, just on the try-line, just powering through three players.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Again, on that England kind of depth thing, uh a fit firing Feywa Boso is scary. He's got five tries already in the competition after two weeks.

Bath Pack Power and Ford’s Class

SPEAKER_01 36:11

I mean, ludicrous, ludicrous. Yeah, we're gonna have to find a way to get him into the fantasy team. Oh, thankfully it's in mine, yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, but the four points between us after the first two rounds.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah, I'm very aware, very aware. We're we're we're we're comfortably in the top ten or eleven, aren't we? We're doing well.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Yeah, yeah. Um outside of that, I mean I mean Exeter looked alright. They look to me like just a better coached side at the moment, or a more um not coordinated, but uh just a smooth slightly smoother operation. Um they seem to know they knew each other's jobs a bit better than what Newcastle were doing, but and had just that bit of extra stardust quality with some the likes of Feuerbo, so and Brown Bampi, and then obviously Ross Vince Vincent as well, who scored a couple of very good try.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

I I do think they've turned a corner compared to last season, but I also think perhaps they've had a little bit of fortune in the fact that in the first game they were gifted some points by Northampton in the second half, and they've had the Red Bulls who obviously aren't up to snuff at the moment, and their next game's gonna be up against uh slightly wounded Bears. So I it may be what they need to build that confidence again. But I also would encourage extra fans to not get too carried away just yet, because I do think there's some frailty there still.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

There is some frailty, but there are some players to come in as well, with Lyser Catalan Hooper. So um, you know, yeah, I th I I agree to be honest. I think I think they I I think that's still a team that to me uh looks short of a lot of the other teams in this league that um that that I believe will finish above them, but they certainly look better than they did last season. Um as for Newcastle, I mean they do look a bit better than they did last season, but ultimately this the only real positive for me was the performance of uh really good, really good performance from him. And um, you know, we talked about last week he came as advertised. This week he stepped it up even even further. Um, you know, if they can, you know, again they've got some players to come in as well. Um Benito's Cruz, and they're like uh Tom Christie, I think's coming in still. Um and they may well be able to pick up a few more um as well on short-term contracts, which I think would be a good move on their part. But um, you know, that we we tempered expectations when when we talked about this at the start of the season. We didn't want we didn't want it to sound like we thought they'd uh they'd start romping the league immediately. But at the moment it does still feel like there's there's a significant gap between them and the rest of the league.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

It does, it does, and it's interesting. You go you go onto like the Newcastle Red Bulls, like Facebook groups and things like that, and the fans uh their expectations are already really high. Uh I would again I would encourage Newcastle fans to put a bit of perspective in. I think this is a three to five year project. I think this year's still not going to be that pretty. Um but you know, as you say, there are improvements on last year, there is some quality players to come back. I still think they'll nick a couple of wins. Um probably not in this phase of the season.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

You know, I think they'll nick some good wins at home, and you know, maybe they'll get a surprise result in a w in an away game, but I wouldn't bank on it.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. But like I said, we're not dwelling on this. There wasn't an awful lot to draw out of this game other than Fayobos and Vincent. Um 38-15 to Exeter in the end, comfortable, another bonus point, eight points from ten for Exeter, which for them was a strong old start. Now, another game that was a bit strange. Leicester Tigers versus the Harlequins. Now I was uh I was out watching uh some local grassroots rugby when this game was on, so I didn't catch the game. But in the clubhouse, I went in to get a drink at the 50 53 minute mark, and it was 19-nil to Harlequins. I thought, oh okay, that's that's nice. Uh they've kept kept Leicester Tigers quiet. I get home just to get ready to watch the uh Saracens Bristol game and I oh Leicester Tigers won with a bonus point and Harlequins didn't get anything from that game. What the hell happened? Uh so I'm hoping you can alight to me, Rory, because I missed that entirely.

Ajomo at 10 and Game Control

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Uh well I've watched this back. I mean I had a similar experience. I I got in from into the Morden clubhouse and it was 19-nil. Um and then uh went to get a uh a Guinness from the from the bar and um uh wandered scored his first try. Um and then all momentum just shifted and lesser, but actually I watched this this the full game back. I'm not entirely sure how um Quinn's got to 19-0. Leicester Tigers were were the much better side. Yeah, um they I mean they were they were really inaccurate to be fair, Leicester. They they coughed up some a lot of opportunities. Um and Quinn's took points when they were on offer and and they did score a really nice try. The the Porter try, if you've not seen it, it's off um it's off a kickoff. Um and uh they'd yeah, they just scored a 50 odd metre penalty. Jamie Benton slotted one over from 50 metres.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

And Tigers take the kickoff and it bounces into Don Brandt's hand, who makes a really good sort of 25-30 metre break and throws a lovely out the back pass to Kenningham, not sure, it's one of the other forwards who then put in um uh put in Porter to run it in. Really nice bit of skill from from Don Brandt, though. Um, who uh uh had one of his better performances in in recent times, actually. Um yeah, good. But you know, Tigers were were absolutely the better side for the first 50 minutes and just couldn't score. Um Solomon Akata was an absolute handful. The number of players who quite literally went flying having tried to tackle him, it was it was mad. Umika Leone was everywhere, um Oli Chesham was everywhere, but yeah, they just just couldn't actually put it together to get the ball down. Um I think I think what really what really showed uh when Quinn's went down to 14, Jack Walker got a simbin. There was a sort of a mini break, and Jack Walker got Simbin for sort of some cynical play. Yeah, and as soon as they went one man up, they were then able to create enough of an overload to get uh to get Wand who I'll apologise in advance. I can't remember what his first name is. Will um Will Wand. Will Wand. There you go, thank you. Will Wand went over in about yeah 54 minutes just from goal line pressure. You know, they still took quite a long time to finish this off. They had two or three lineouts on the five meter and a couple of malls, and they just eventually managed to create enough of an overload. Um, but then you know the dam sort of just burst from there. Van Poorfleet went over again off more goal line pressure. Um Quinzer gave away a lot of penalties, uh, and then Hassel Collins scored a really nice trite off the back of Ollie Chesham, um, who was sort of hanging out wide, just one in from Hassel Collins on the wing. Uh took a really nice pass, I think it was from Billy Sell, who had a good game. Just lovely outside break, draw a pass, nice little step, fed in Oli uh Ollie Hassel Collins to uh to score in the corner. And then once once Tigers were ahead, you know, there was you couldn't see a route back. I mean, by the time they've scored their second, you really got the impression, yeah, Quinn's gonna throw this away. They just don't, they look frail mentally and up front. Um, you know, once the momentum goes against them, you know, we saw it last week against Bath, as soon as the momentum turns, they just don't look like they've got an answer for it.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yeah, I know I I've definitely I've seen lots of questions being raised by Quinn's fans, just really questioning what's going on with kind of the tactics, the selections. What's what is the plan at Harlequins at the moment? Because they do we said it last year, a little bit ruddless.

Discipline Shifts the Result

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Um, to to be honest, I don't think it's anything's changed from last year, which is part of the problem. Um, I think they're in a bit of a holding pattern for some of their players to come back. Obviously, Marcus Smith is a big miss for them at the moment, but Marcus is going to struggle behind this pack at the moment, which hasn't you know, the signings they've made haven't as of yet made the difference in terms of their ability to arrest the power up front. Yeah, the scrum looks looked reasonably solid, um, but and they got a couple of good penalties. Baxter, you know, I think got the best of Joe Hayes on the day. But um as a pack, as a as a unit, they still look pretty underpowered. Um, in the backs at the moment, they're playing. Well, they'd Jamie Benson was playing 12, Jared Evans at 10. I just it's just not enough. You know, with the best of the world, it's not to be unkind, you know, particularly Jamie Benson, who I think is a really good, promising young player, but it's just not enough power or or impact there. Jared Evans, you know, he's quite a good um distributor and quite a good operator, you know, again behind a good pack, but he's not got any sort of sparkle, really. He's got hasn't really got a running game.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

He's just a steady hand, isn't he? In attention.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Yeah, so you you lose that, and then you know, you're sort of just relying on the likes of Tyrone Green or Nick David, or you know, this Cassie's plays as well to do something.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, so Cassie's specials had a couple of nice moments I saw.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

He he did, yeah, he did. I mean, all three of the back three did at times, but um, you know, they're they're you know, they're they're relying on players like that just to do something out of nowhere because they you know, whatever way you look at it, and even in this game, Quinn's are really good off the cuff. So if someone does something mad and makes a little break, they are very good at playing off that and taking advantage of those opportunities. Yeah, they've still got that in their DNA, but what they don't have is the ability to force those regularly by having a dominant pack that creates you know, sends defenses going backwards to then create these opportunities on a more regular basis. You're just up you're just waiting for you know the the opposition to make a bad defensive read and for your players to hopefully take advantage of it because you're not forcing the defence the a bad defensive read, if you see what I mean. Yeah, you know, you're just hoping one will happen. Yeah, um it's not much of a gameplay. Yeah, it's it's I would be concerned as a um as a Queens fan.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Does Marcus Smith and the four Argentinians that they're waiting on, does that change the tide at all, or do you think Harlequins are in for another long season?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Well, they're gonna need the four Argentinians to hit the ground running and to be able to play most of the rest of the season without injury. Um ultimately they're gonna they I mean they're gonna need real impact from them.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Um Marcus Smith, you know, Marcus Smith is a big difference maker. There's no two ways about it. That is what Marcus Smith does.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah.

Standouts: Underhill & Pepper

SPEAKER_01 47:09

But one man does not make the team. Well, you know, you're packing your defence or what win you win you games, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and at the moment those two things look lacking. I mean, the defence looks pretty passive, um, and it basically just relies on Will Evans, Jack Kenningham, Don Brandt, or Jack Walker getting a turnover, which they're all good at, but you can't really rely on that constantly. You need to have a dominant.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Not to win your games, not to win you games. It's it's no surprise that like of like the top 20 tacklers in the league at the moment, like eight or nine of them are Quinn's players. They're just they're just they're doing a lot of work in defence, uh, and I don't think it's being as impactful as it has been in the past. I don't think they're getting the same number of turnovers. I think teams might have figured out how to counter that a little bit. I don't I think Will Evans has only got maybe maybe one turnover so far.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Um yeah, I mean they weren't they weren't getting much change out of it. I mean the Tigers pack had a really good day at the office for that. They I mean, and it's a you know, you forget how big that pack is. Yeah, yeah. You know, Henderson, Chesham, Ilione, Krakenall, and Morrow, who I hadn't really seen before, but looks like a really promising young Argentinian.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

You know, as a back five in that pack, they're so big and they're a lot more mobile than you think they are to look at them. Um, you know, you put in Nikki Smith as well as a really good ball carrier. Joe Hayes is coming on leaps and bounds with his all-round game play. And they got Plumaia. Um, Blame and Claire both really good. You know, ultimately, Tigers were were really good at managing the breakdown and preventing those turnovers. What they weren't very good at was turning pressure into points for the first 50 minutes, but as soon as they started doing it, it was a bit of a runaway freight train.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Yeah, well, so that that game made a 29-19 to Leicester, despite Quinn's being up 19 0 at 54 minute point. So that's uh 26 minutes of hell uh for the Quinn's faithful, but a good bonus point win for the Tigers, uh, I think. Yeah. Moving on now, Rory. Saracens versus Bristol. There's a few things I want to touch on here. Firstly, Saracens. How do they solve this amazing problem they've got? Let me just list you a few players and their respective ages. Tobias Elliott, 22. Jack Bracken, 20, Noah Calorey, 20, Angus Hall, 20, Brandon Jackson Richards, 24. These are five promising young players all playing the same position. How on earth does a team like Saracens manage a problem like that?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Yeah, and that's before you talk about the likes of Malin's Shagan, Dale.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

This was me ignoring everyone over the age of 25.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah, I mean it's an interesting problem to have, isn't it? Um what the I mean, the honest answer is I don't know. This is where Mark McCall has to earn his crust because I actually don't know how you integrate all of those into the team. And you know, some of them will develop in a non-linear way. There will be moments when they need to be taken out of the firing line.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Um, but off the back of this performance, Jack Bracken's not one of them.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

No, um, so this is my this is this was going to be my point. Jack Bracken looks ready made to be playing now. Tobias Elliott, based on last season, looks ready to be playing now. Angus Hall at moments last season looks like he's ready for the league now, and Noah Callory is probably the one that perhaps could use a bit more time refining the game elsewhere, but he's the one with the real X factor thing that perhaps some of the others don't have with his unique skill set that we spoke about last week. And then Brandon Jackson Richards looks like a really solid option as well. Yeah. So yeah, I just I just don't know. I just don't know how they're gonna do it. I don't know how they balance it.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Um I don't know how it's gonna shake out. I mean, have I have I read right that there's a feeling that Jack Bracken's ultimate position might be fullback? Um perhaps. Um but I mean that doesn't necessarily entirely solve the problem. Um I don't know, is the honest answer. It's I mean it's very exciting times for Saracens, and actually it's quite exciting times for other teams if you think they can you can get a good pickup out of one of those. Um of those at the moment, one I would be certain Saracens will not want to let go anywhere, is Jack Bracken. Um his I mean we talked about I you know one of the he was one of the players I both of us really um talked about as being really excited to see this season. Yeah, potential break. I didn't necessarily expect him, yeah. I didn't expect him to break in this early, but he I mean he fully took his opportunity. And the two the two tries aside, which are both really good, one particularly very good poacher try. Let's talk about the defence. Um it's the defence. Yeah, I didn't expect how physical, I mean, because he's not a big lad, nor is Charlie, who he had a very good game of defence when he came on as well.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Um, they're not big lads, but my god, they were good in.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

What do they feed them in that Bracken household? And where do I buy it?

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Uh I mean, this is this is another thing that's gonna um get me uh get me pelters from from another hemisphere. But Jack Bracken was giving me real Chesling Colby vibes. You heard that here first, Savers.

Exeter v Newcastle: Where They Are

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Offensively, I get where you're coming from. The way he kind of power to weight ratio, just the absolute power to weight ratio was up well. Well above his weight in terms of the tackles he was making, the impact it seemed to be having on the players he was tackling. Like they looked like big hits for a quite a relatively, we're talking relative here, relatively small guy. Um very, very impressive.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

The thing that you meant you've already mentioned it. The mad thing is he's 20. Yeah, Charlie's 21.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Just just 20 as well.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Yeah, they're not these aren't fully grown lads, and they were dump tackling, you know, professionals, like seasoned professionals at times.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Um, and you know, I mean it you can already see he can he can step you in a phone box. But the fact that he's got that in his game and was good under the high ball and made not just good hits but good defensive reads. Um, you know, he was it wasn't just that he was slotting people, he was actually making the right read at the right time. Yeah, there was a moment when there was a bit of an overload down his channel, and his ability to go from uh switching from one player and then get out to the wider player and cover them and make the tackle, the speed at which he made that was was and that's what I mean by Cheslin Colby vibes. It's because the thing about Cheslin Colby, for all his attacking prowess, he's such a good defender, yeah, and he's got that kind of that bottle fly just zips between players and gets it and gets the hit in.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

It's that ability that you kind of you can feel even if there's a two-on-one on the fringes, like they've got the acceleration to kind of cover every eventuality in a two-in-one, so you don't you don't feel like you have to cover for them quite so much. And it gives it gives everyone everyone inside you a lot of confidence in you on the on the fringes there. So I could not agree more. Jack Bracken uh I I'm not gonna say he's undroppable, because obviously they've got a lot of players to come back, like Socinty, and they got Shegon and Malin. Well, I think we're gonna see a lot more of him though. I would not be surprised if he's not uh he he ain't gonna be spending more time at Amtil, I don't think. I think we'll see him in in the Prem for the rest of the season. Quite rightly so. It's just like I I just want to see the rest, I want to see more of Tobias Elliott, who I thought was fantastic last year. Angus Hall. I know Angus Hall's kind of been moved into the centres a little bit at times, so perhaps that's the answer for him. But then you've got Ollie Hartley that's brought into that equation. Noah Calorey, who we've spoken about. It's fantastic, yeah. It's a good old problem for Saracens. Uh I don't like bigging up Saracens all that much, but I also want to talk about them as a team collectively.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Um let's let's let's not big them up. Let's let's call this out for what it was, David. This was bullying in the workplace. It was bullying in the workplace. Um cruel, if anything.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Um when I see a wounded bear, I don't like to punch it while it's down.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Did you see that their postmatch video this week? I really liking the villain arc.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

The villain arc is quite lovely. I am enjoying what Saracens are doing on social media. Please do keep that up. It is rather enjoyable. Um but yeah So one thing I want to touch on, Rory, is I I watched that Saracen's defence, and to me that looks like a team that has been drilled to stop one side and one side only, and they look like they're like what side would that be? They are being drilled to stop Bath because the way they suffocated Brist um Yeah, Bristol from anything pick and go wise, they were on it like a some sort of metaphor about things getting on quickly. Uh yeah, my brain's not working today.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Um yes, no, they I mean they were just so physical. So physical. Um yeah, Owen Farrell has not skipped Arm Day since he's come back to England. He looks stacked. Uh Nick Tompkins is playing the best rugby, he's played for four or five years.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Unbelievable player right now.

Falcons’ Reset and Realistic Hopes

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah. Um, in you know, up front, I mean some of the less fashionable names. Harry Wilson has been brilliant the last two weeks. He has. Um, both both sides were really good with the ball in hand. He had a really nice moment when he um he bounced off three or four Bristol defenders and you know, and and made some good ground. Um, but you know, this is a it's a championship pickup, yeah, and he's really, really impressing. Hadfield uh when he's come on quite early for th uh for Theodan. He had some nice moments, really good moments. Marco Riccioni, his acceleration into tackles at times, I mean doing himself a mischief at points, but just I mean, really aggressive defense. Um Rhys Carey had a nice carry. He's he's coming on into the player that some people thought he could be when he first came onto the scene.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Carey by name, caray by nature.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Correct. Uh he is caraying his way to I think potentially back into Wales contention.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

He's got to be.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Um, but I mean the man of the hour really is Tom Willis, who I mean, man carries with hate. He's got that real Henry Tulaggy. I mean, you're Henry Tulaggi, when he when he carried the ball into contact, he looked like he hated the person who was trying to tackle him. Tom Willis has a bit of that about him.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

He certainly does. That that one carry where he literally stood still, waited for them to come tackle him, and he just shrugged them off like a counter puncher. It was I don't there's not a player like him in the league at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

He is no really quite old-fashioned type of number eight, but so effective and actually proving the worth of those types of players.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Yeah, I like this is why I really hope he doesn't go to France, because I think England have missed probably 12 months of Tom Willis already. I don't want to miss out on him anymore now that he's kind of got himself into that squad, because I think he's such a point of difference.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Yeah. He's got he's he's shaped like like an NFL tight end. Yeah, yeah, he's big.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Well he's huge, but he's not huge, huge.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah, but he's just so just so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

And to be honest, if I was Taylor Swift, I'd be marrying Tom Willison, not Travis Kelsey, because I think Tom Willis is better.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

I completely agree. Tom Willis is better than Travis Kelsey. It's not too late, Swifty. It's time to change. Come on, Tay Tay. Come on, Tay Tay. Come see Tom Tom. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. We'll go with it. We'll go with that.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

We'll go with it. Um but should we ultimately, yeah. This this was this was a bullying job.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

It was a bullying job, and I'm I'm beginning to feel bad for Bristol.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

I've I'm just Well, Tom Jordan going off, Joe Jenkins going off, Lewis Rizama going off.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

All three of them again looked like they may be lengthy. I don't know who they've got left, Rory. I don't know if they're not.

Tigers v Quins: Momentum Swing

SPEAKER_01 59:03

I read it this afternoon, uh Mateus Moroni on a short-term contract. Okay, yeah, that's but um but Moroni's a really good player who I really like and was really good for Argentina in the summer. Yeah, but a 34-year-old um centre wing cover doesn't quite make up for the players they've lost it because he didn't make a difference when he was up at Newcastle Falcons.

SPEAKER_00 59:23

Um he's not gonna save the day.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Um it's look, I I hate to feel like we're the harbingers of Doom, but we did talk about this potential problem with Bristol.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

I'm not saying it's our fault, but we did pinpoint that this exact thing could happen and completely derail their season.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Wasn't expected up to round two. Yes, I did do a lot of voodoo curses to ensure this happened. Sure. Uh yes, I consulted with um uh several shamans. Absolutely. The T leaves were pointing in that direction. Absolutely, and you know, I'm somewhat gleeful, but I do. Feel bad about how happy I'm about it. I'm not happy about it. I'm never happy to see a player injured.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

No, no, no, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

But this is a but it it was a predictable problem because we predicted it and we're amateurs on a podcast. Yeah, we saw this coming a mile off.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

We did see this coming a mile off, and it's typical that it is entirely in the back division, which is where the problem is at its most prominent.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Stars. The only star who isn't injured is Janse Van Rensberg and Ravu, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

And Revu and and on on Yancey Van Rensburg, quickly. I love him. I think he's an amazing player. I think he's been stifled a bit by being surrounded by all the players they got at Bristol, because we don't see the stuff he used to do at London Irish at Bristol anymore. So I'm hoping maybe this is a chance for Johan for Bernard, Yancey Van Rensburg, doorbell. Bear with me, listener. I'll finish this in a second.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

David, just uh off to answer the doorbell. Um I believe he's ordered an enormous Chinese. Um I'm guessing half duck, uh large egg fried rice, uh black bean beef, um looks like three portions of prawn crackers, spring rolls, uh prawn toast.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Apologies, that was the uh the birthday present for the girlfriend for tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Oh, I was I was speculative with a listener about your Chinese.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

No, not a Chinese. Uh so where was I? Yes. So I'm hoping this is the opportunity for Bernhard Yancy Van Rensburg to really throw back the years and show us what he did at London Irish. I just don't feel like I've seen it from him at Bristol for a couple of couple of seasons. I always put him on my fantasy team and he underdelivers Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Well, I mean, firstly, there's an answer for you on that one. But secondly, even if he does do that, I mean, at this point he's gonna be standing alone in a field. Uh very lonely man performing miracles.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah, him and a bunch of academy players, isn't it? Um I was talking to Bristol fans yesterday at Man V Fat, and they said, Oh, but Ellis Genji's coming back. It's like he can't play on the wing. That's not the area you need the help.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Um you got yeah, you've got other issues. Yeah, and Genji, God love him, but uh he doesn't cover the issues you've got. No, him and Gibbra and Ibatoi are very different prospects on Bristol. Very different players.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Um ultimately this was a bullying job. Saracen's putting 50 on Bristol um at the Stone X. Bristol might even able to get across the line and get that bonus point, go home with nothing. Uh, although no surprise considering the players they had left standing at the 80th minute. I don't know where I don't know. They've got uh they've got Xeter next, and I fully expect Exeter to get another moral morale boosting victory against a depleted Bears squad. I just can't I just don't know where this turns around because the injuries are ramping up and they are not quick fixes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

No, it looks it it looks pretty dire at the moment. I I think they can still cobble together a pack that will give extra a tough time, but the reality is you're you're now going against you're probably gonna end up picking two maybe three academy level players or recent senior academy players on the in the back three against two of the most exciting wingers in the league.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Feyobosa and Brown Bampo running at Dunboshoff and Josh Carrington Well, I think Max, you know, Max Pepper I think is a really exciting player.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

He's got a lot of great prospects to him. Um but if he ends up starting on the wing against Brown Bampo, I think he's going to um it'd be a tricky day. It'll be a tricky day. I think he's gonna tread all over him.

Quins’ Pack Problems and Identity

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Who knows? Yeah, so ended 50-17 to Saracens. Now, let's move on to the Ruxmalls and Ovalballs Derby Rory. And there's a lot to talk about here, and we've been nattering on so much already. So we don't we don't have that much time to delve into this game, but I feel like there's a few things we may both want to get off our chests. Now, I went to King's Home, and I'll start off by saying, despite reports I've seen over Facebook about fights going on after the game, all that, I found King's Home an incredibly friendly, incredibly welcoming atmosphere. Couldn't don't have anything other than positive things to say about the Gloucester fans, all the ones we spoke to. Very welcoming, lovely atmosphere. On record, I want to put that out there because I've seen stuff going on around about how there's been fights and stuff. Not my experience. Um I'll also add that Gloucester fans were not very happy uh after this game. Lots of rumblings about how uh missed opportunity, maybe uh the first half in in particular, not happy about that first half, understandably. Keen to get your view on that Gloucester performance uh and your takeaways from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

Yeah, well I'm glad first of all, so I'm glad I'm glad to hear um you uh that positive take on Gloucester fans, because they they they get a bad rap at times, but they're actually uh they're a surprisingly knowledgeable crowd, and they're and they've been through a lot in the last uh couple of decades, and they're so they're they're actually not as one-eyed as people accuse them of being. They're just they're just really hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

They are a little bit one-eyed, but you know. Yeah, I'm saying that as a Saints fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

They're just hopeful that something good will happen. That's a diff it's different.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

Um, so look, that there is some context to this. Obviously, so we know Saints are missing a lot of players from their um from their starting squad. So the 19 players currently missing. Yeah, um so obviously Saints have got some big challenges there. Um Gloucester, Gloucester have got similar issues, but the issue isn't necessarily the number of players that are missing, it's the fact that the players that have had to come in are all new sign-ins. Yeah, so of course it's forced their hand a bit, hasn't it? Yeah, so of the squad um that played against Northampton, ten of them were new sign-ins. And you know, there's there are certain things you can excuse and certain things you can't excuse, and there's plenty of things in that first half that you know it the defence was indefensible. Yeah, uh, you know, that you you can't excuse some of the scores that they let in there. Um when I watched it, because I actually wasn't in uh whilst this game was on so I had to watch this on playback, so I knew I knew that what the result was, and I went into this fully expecting the first half to watch like uh an absolute horror story. Um, because you know you go in 31-7 at half time, you just fully expect that we were nowhere at all, just you know, we just sat on the sat on the sidelines watching. Um, it wasn't actually exactly like that. Um, compared to last week, I saw much better attacking intent and attacking play, even in that first half, than I saw. The the issue they've got is they can't put together more than three phases without someone running the the wrong line and the ball getting knocked on, which is obviously an issue, and you know, I'm not gonna defend that as being acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

But that that's that's gonna be exacerbated by having 10 new players, isn't it? Like bringing 10 new players together, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

This is the thing, this is where you can see the the issue with these new combinations because if you think of the likes of the players that they're missing, um Jack Clement, who was our you know in attack, our kind of glue player last last season, Max Llewellyn, real glue player for us in in attack. Um, we've got a new fly half, um, you know, which is a new halfback combination, and with the best of the world, it's been a slightly underwhelming transition um for Ross Burns thus far.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

Yeah, I have I have thoughts on him.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Yeah. Um so there is contest and the the turnaround from 31-0 down. Now obviously Saints at points were down to what 13 players, 12 players, or whatever it was at certain points.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

Oh, yeah, the complete capitulation. You talk about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

And part of that was obviously down to injury, so there is that issue there, but a lot of it was down to yellow cards, and it wasn't these, you know, in terms of the yellow cards, they were all enforced by Gloucester pressurising the Saints' defence into, I mean, so many offsides. They get they ended up getting all nearly all their yellow cards because they couldn't get back on side once.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

They're just eager, they're just eager to play Rory.

Saracens v Bristol: Ruthless Sarries

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Yeah, but yeah, there is that. But what that what that does show is that what Gloucester were doing when they could get their hands on the ball and play was massively pressurizing Saints into into making mistakes. So that in itself is quite um courage him. Yeah. But there's no two ways around it. You can't get away from how amateurish they defended in the first half.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

You know, way too easy, way too easy to break through.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

I mean, there was one try, was it was it McPahlan's try? Yeah, it's walk through. Um, just Ross Byrne just just overdrifts and just ends up on his arse and then just off a scrum. It's not it's a one-phase try. There was another one phase try, it was Hendy's, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Charlie Atkinson overdrifts and just let lets just leaves a massive gap for Hendy to run in. Just so easy for them. And and you can't really you can't defend that as a um it because it's both strategic issues. There's clearly something wrong in terms of the strategic aims of the defence, but it's also application issues. That that that is an issue with players wanting to make the big hits because then the Litchfield try, the second try, um, comes off Will Joseph um and Seb Atkinson getting their spacing completely wrong. Seb Atkinson goes for the wrong man. Will Joseph um gambles on the man out the back, and Litchfield just has a clean run under the posts.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

Um Pearson's try came from soft hits, another from Ross Byrne, a very soft tackle from Ross Byrne. Um, you know, we're you could see how much we're missing Chris Harris, yeah, organising the defence. Um, but yeah, the other side of it is well, the and the other thing was how often we're getting isolated at the breakdown. Rory Hutchinson, I think, had three turnovers in the first half, four turnovers. Yeah, yeah, four in total in the game. Yeah, no, just so just it was just too easy to attack the breakdown. And that's you know, we talked about where Leicester nullified Quinn's at that area. If Gloss go into play against Harlequins playing like that, it'd just be a turnover first. Exactly what happened when we went to Twickenham last season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, in the summer, it's exactly what happened. We just got turned over to so often. So they have to do something to to mitigate that. Um so that's all the negatives, but on the plus side, you know, the second half, because they all the pressure was put on Saints, the complete um I say capitulation, but just so much pressure, just forced into forced into capitulating, really. Will Joseph's tries an absolute worldie. Yeah, lovely to see him. Yeah, lovely to see him get out there. Um Besogburn dominated Faschetti at the scrum, and then steps and splashes to score a try to take us into the lead. Um, outside of Cam Jordan getting a couple of good powerful tries at um yeah, he had a good game. And uh, yeah, he did, and Venter get getting another try when he powered over as well. Um, you just but it's it's nuts and bolts problems again. The Ross Burns uh Simbin for the intercept when they've just gone back um just gone into the lead. Now, I don't I think based on the fact that they should have they didn't yellow card Freddie Thomas for exactly the same thing in the first half. I don't know why this one was a yellow card, but no consistency there. But yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

There should have been two yellows, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yeah. Well, regardless, it was um stupid. It was daft. Yeah, it was a stupid decision to make. You don't need to do that. Um, and then Jack Inard loses two line outs in the final ten minutes in good good attacking positions.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:57

His darts haven't been good, have they? Start the season. Really? They weren't good last week either.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

No, they weren't. Uh they're really poor. Um, we need Jack Singleton back. Um yeah, just the nuts and bolts fail us at at important times. Um, Rory Hutchinson's tackle on Ben Loder in the corner. Why uh obviously a try-saver, probably a match saver. Yeah, Ben Loder scores then you they probably do have enough time to go on to win this match.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

Yeah, I do think that won out the game.

The Bracken Breakout

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

It probably was. Uh I mean I I'd have liked to have seen some arms in it, and I'd like to have seen some acknowledgement from even the commentators would have been nice, let alone the match officials. Um, that he effectively just threw himself at him.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

It it it was uh, you know, it's a unique style. It was effective, sure. Um there must be there must have been an arm there somewhere, because you know, the refs would have looked at it. They they looked at everything else. Um maybe they just didn't want Saints to go down to 11 players. Um because at what point does it team forfeit? I don't know. Is there a rule?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

We're getting close to that point. Um but you know, let's I I I have my doubts as to how legal that tackle it was, but put it that way. But yeah, it's so it's just it's weird at the moment with Gloss because they've scored five tries, uh, they've managed to still lose the game, yeah. And despite scoring five tries, so many fundamentals seem wrong. I don't I you know it's it's hard to really put your finger on it at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

Uh so I think in context, you did score five tries, yes. A majority of those came when Northampton's you know B team were down to 13 players, so you should be scoring five tries, to be fair. Um I also think Northampton's well, as we saw, numerous offsides. Something's not quite right in their goal line defence because this is this is effectively what Exeter did last weekend, second half. Whatever Northampton are doing at half time, stop doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:58

Because if Phil Dowson's half-time team talks must be dreadful.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Either they've got the they've got the sleepy half-time oranges in, they need to get some new half-time oranges because whatever they're doing, whatever they're eating, taking is not working. Um, I think you're quite right to point out I'm a second week running where I kind of feel like Fisketti coming on, the scrum seems to have taken a step back. This is not what I expected. Um but I'm hoping that will change over time. But I I want to be positive about the Northampton performance because despite the second half, uh, in all the adversity, we still managed to get the win, which you know, is it 12 months since Gloucester have won at Kings uh lost at Kings Holmes? So the fact that they managed to break that duck as well, it's like it's not an easy place to go and get a win. I I I just want to highlight two players. Rory Hutchinson was incredible, and our little petty general Tony Bellew.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

Tony Bellew is looking like at the moment signing of the season.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

Um so impressed with him. Um slotting that penalty in front of the shed.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

Yeah, because that must have been, you know, he I don't I doubt he would have played at King's own beforehand. I'd I'd be surprised if he would have he's played in France, he's he'll have played in some hostile, hostile environments. The shed is it's is different, it's it's hostile, and it's it's also it's weird.

Tom Willis, Power with Purpose

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

And it's it is weird, and it's so close to the pitch, it's right down your neck. It is a very different experience, and the way he just was unfazed by it. I I'm so I I agree. I think he him and Callum Chick have been Northampton Saints signing of the season so far for sure, because they've both been so impressive. Uh Eduardo Todaro having a nice little moment in the corner, doing a bit of dancing feet. Still thinking about it. Really good lots to see from him still. Uh good to see again the prancing ginger man, George Hendy doing his thing, the ginger flash still looking quite good. I know I said last week that I was going to reserve my thoughts on JJ Van der Mesht after he starts a game. Maybe this needs a bit more conditioning. I don't know. He just doesn't seem to be having the impact I thought he would. But hey.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

Do you know what he's surprisingly? He seems surprisingly easy to defend for someone that big.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

No, I'm not going to be mean, but it does it just it did look like he was tired quite quickly. Um so maybe he just needs a bit more fitness.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

It's not well, I mean, you know, the the the speed of the premiership uh the of the Prem is different to Top 14. Yeah, top 14 is it's it's quite slow for long periods and then really, really frantic and mental and then quite slow for long periods, whereas the Prem's a bit more kind of relentless pace.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

Yeah, I will say in the first 10 minutes or so where he was on that bullocking run and he knocked it on, I think if he took that, he was probably through because he was going at some speed, and I think maybe he depleted a lot of his energy on that moment, and perhaps that's where things took a took a slower step from that. But I I'm still optimistic. I think once he gets used to the league and used to the speed of the league, I think he will be a wrecking ball.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:04

We said last week it's it's also Saints need to learn how to use him. Yes. You know, Larosh, the way Larish, I mean, I say we've got to be very clear, he's not Will Skelton.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:12

But the way Larishelle used Will Skelton is very specific in a way that ensures you can use Will Skelton multiple times in his most effective um capacity in attack. You know, Saints are a pretty can be at times a bit of a hair and scare him kind of team. Because you have to manage the way Vandermesht is part of that because he can't sprint up and down the same way though as Coles can.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

No, at the moment it's give him the ball and see what he can do. Um it's we're not designing anything around his his strengths. I think that will come. I think that'll come.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:45

I think I think Vest still gets his head around that, but at the moment you're not getting the best out of him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

But Northampton, two two games where it's been story of two halves, somehow still taking eight points from ten, considering the players we've got missing. I'm not gonna be complaining too much. I think you'd be pretty comfortable with that. I I can't wait for this weekend coming up where we get hopefully see some of the Lions boys come back in, maybe not all of them. Uh you can't just throw them all in, expect them to be up to speed straight away. But um I'm looking forward to kind of having a bit more. I I feel like if Alex Mitchell and Finn Smith play both the games we've had so far, the Exeter game would have been a comfortable victory, and that Gloucester game would not have been quite so scary uh in the second half. I think you're probably right. I think you're probably right.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:29

Um, and from Gloucester's perspective, um they well, we've got Bath this week, so I'm not expecting results, but what I do need to see is some massive improvements in some key areas because I'm you know, I say we're not I don't expect us to get anything out of this weekend. If we get a point out of it, I'd be delighted. Yeah. Um, but we need to be able to come away with having not been hosed and not showing up because the first couple of weeks have been nowhere near good enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

No, no, but it's still early days, Rory. There's still time.

Bristol’s Injuries and Depth Pain

SPEAKER_01 1:19:02

Yeah, and it's a I th I do think I do think a lot of the root of the problems is new combinations that haven't played in this system together before. I do think that is at the root of a lot of the issues in attack and defence. It's not all of the issues, yeah, and there's there's certain things that you know you can't excuse by saying that. You know, some of the some of the tackling attempts have been dreadful, some of the knock-ons are just daft. But you know, I think some of that does come, and you know, the way that Gloucester have been playing the last year, you do need good continuity for that to work. You know, we've seen it with likes of you know, take you know, Bristol and Quinn's and Northampton actually are all good examples of teams that play a really high tempo attacking style, and we've all seen all three of those teams struggle when the combinations are off, and particularly in the first year or two of those processes. You know, I've seen all three of those teams have gone through that, um, but you know, you do you do need to have some absolute minimum standards in certain areas at the moment, gloss aren't meeting minimum standards in every area.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

Well, I I think when you have that that pro that unique problem Gloucester have with the injuries and having to throw the new guys in, time is the healer. And with each week, as long as it's as long as you're seeing those improvements week in, week out, you can kind of accept some defeats. But uh, I think if if if you're seeing the same problems every single week and it doesn't seem to be changing, that's when I know what Gloucester fans are like, and George Skivington will be going back into another uncomfortable place after having a couple of years of feeling a bit more positive about himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

Um I mean there were some step forwards this week. I think you know, I think that's what we should. There were definitely some step forwards, there just weren't step forwards in every area, and not every step forward was good enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

So yeah, that's very true. That's very true.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

But we'll see, you know, be safe. We've we've got some we'll hopefully get a cut. I mean, to be honest, I was reading some of the injury report earlier today, and Arthur Clark's broken his foot whilst running, which is what he got on England Duty, but it's the other foot. That's not good. Jack Clement sounds like he's out for a fair while, Ludlow's out for a while. Yeah, Jamal and Val don't sound like they're back anytime soon. Max is gonna be out for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

So this is where I wanted to go on to. Now we've done the summary. So that game ended 35-37, Northampton. Real nail biter, fantastic game to be at, really good atmosphere. But something I want to talk generally, injuries seem to be a real plague across the league at the moment. You look at most teams and they are having injury problems. You said Northampton, eight, 19 players unavailable. We've spoken about Bristol Bears' injury problems, Gloucester have an increasing injury list going on. So a bar for number of players going off injured. Is there something in the water or is this just the sport we play, Rory?

Gloucester v Saints: Chaos and Composure

SPEAKER_01 1:21:46

I mean, at the moment, the Prem is playing a generally a pretty fast-paced attacking game that is still maintaining that physical level. And I just think the players are just feeling the strain from it. And ultimately, you know, we we don't have the size squads in this country to to mitigate for that the same way they do in France. You know, so you your players have to be more fitter and more mobile constantly because now this is not a slight on French uh French fitness because I think that that old stereotype's quite tired, but a lot more players can carry a little bit more padding because they know they won't have to play week in, week out, either in minutes or week in, week out, yeah. Because they they've got you know you've got world-class sub um substitutes to come on and you've got the ability to rest players more often. Um you don't have that luxury in the prem. So the players are leaner. Um, and when if you don't have that kind of layer of protection that you and I enjoy, um served us well. It's yeah, it's you are more prone to injury. Um, and you can kind of you can kind of see that in the type of players that are going off. It's not a lot of the the big lads at the moment, it's it's your finely tuned athletes. Um and you know, I think it does often happen at the early in the season. You know, it's that transition from the summer camps into bone on bone full fullball content.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

It feels like it feels like a lot this year compared to other years, though. It feels like I'd I felt like Northampton had it quite bad last year, but I it I felt like Northampton were the like the the standouts, it feels like every team's having a little bit this year, uh, and some of them getting it really bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

It's tough, it is tough out there. I mean, it is if it gets us the you know, Bristol particular, I think you know to be honest, David. You live in near Bristol. I would I would keep your phone on.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:37

Uh uh Pat Lamb, if you need me, I'll be there. Uh yeah, it's an interesting one. But Rory, I think that's all we've got time for this week. Um shall we have a quick go through this? Little quick cancer next fixtures. Quick cancer of the next fixtures. Let me get them up for the listener, so you don't have to go looking for them yourselves. Round three, coming thick and fast. I believe it is the first of the vaunted derby weekend for the season. So this is where all the teams who are basically rivals will be playing each other. Starts off Friday night, the northern derby, sharks versus Red Bulls. Uh quite an easy one to predict this one, Rory. What's your prediction? Sharks by twenty. Sharks by twenty, I think that's pretty accurate. Moving on to Saturday, uh, one of the many Southwest Derbies. Bristol versus Exeter, Ashton Gate. Do you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

Bucking bucking everything that we've spoken about on this podcast, I am gonna go Bristol by less than five.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:41

Okay, interesting. I I personally feel Exeter have this one. I think Bristol are on a hiding to nothing at the moment. But I think it'll be a good game. I think it'll be a good game to watch. Uh now, next game. I will be there at Franklin's Gardens, Northampton Saints versus Leicester Tigers.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:58

Yeah, and you think you'll have a few of the few of your lions back?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:02

I think we'll have one or two. I don't think we'll have all four. I don't know which ones, but I think we'll I I don't so last year we made a big mistake by rushing all the international players back, and then we just it was very obvious that they hadn't been with the team and weren't match fit. I don't think we'll make that same mistake. Curtis Langdon, is he back? Curtis Langdon's out for a long time. Uh okay. So yeah. But I I I think we may see Finn Smith, probably, but if given he's didn't play the tests. I I I think Alex Mitchell and Finn Smith will be one or both of those. I think those are the ones those are the ones we see. Potentially Pollock as well. Because I imagine he's a young lad. He'll be raring to get back in charge. And also didn't play the tests. Didn't play the tests, whereas Freeman probably played more rugby than the other three. Yeah. Uh maybe. I don't know. We may see all four. Uh I I might just backtrack everything I just said, but I do think we'll see those players come back.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:55

Yeah. Okay. Is that Frankens Gardens? Tigers are an interesting form, but they're not they're not infallible. I'm gonna say I think the Saints take this one by I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:07

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

Five to ten. I think it I think it'll be close. I think this will be a bit of a squeaker.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

I think we're gonna see another one where Northampton go miles ahead at halftime and then let Leicester back in. But hopefully, with this the stewardship of Smith and Mitchell, uh, it won't be quite so squeaky bum time as it has been these last couple of rounds. But I think it'll be close, but I do I'm obviously I'm backing Northampton. Uh Bath versus Gloucester at the wreck. So uh by how many tens, Rory, are you losing?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:36

Yeah, I hate to say it, but I think Bath probably win this one by 20. Yeah, I have it's and I hate to I know I'm you know I hate to be negative about a team I support. Yeah, I I hate to be able to do that. I'd like to always be the up the eternal idiot optimist who just always thinks we're gonna win regardless. But it's difficult to see that, and I think this week could be humbling.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:58

Yeah, we could see 50. Um and then finally, Sunday fixture, Harlequins versus Saracens at the stoop, the London derby. Saracens, the uh regional North London club.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:10

Uh yeah. The original North London club with I think you know 25 people there last week. Um I think Sarreys win this one by I'm gonna say they're gonna win this by 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:22

I was thinking the same. Uh I'm on the same page as you, Rory, uh, other than I think Exeter get the win against Bristol. Uh but let's see how they fare next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

I mean, I could see X to win that, but I'm I'm just gonna back Bristol at home.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:35

Even though they've got a horrendous home form based on last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

Yeah. It's a new season. I just I don't know. I I kind of just would I think although I don't like Bristol, I think now that they've lost all their players, I kind of want them to win. I feel like they're underdogs.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:49

They've got their sympathy vote. That's fine. That's fine, Rory. We we we can disagree. Uh so yeah, that's this week done, Rory. How'd you feel? You feeling good about yourself? Uh look at that. Look at that easy flex to the camera. I've been treated on this podcast. Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

No, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I think uh Gloucester will turn the corner, it just won't be this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:11

No, it's well are you feeling well enough to provide a final thought for the listener before we run the jingle and bring this episode to a close?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:19

I uh I would like to uh have a mercy button uh on my remote this weekend just to uh save me from additional pain.

Gloucester’s New Combos & Nuts‑and‑Bolts

SPEAKER_00 1:28:28

Well, I hope you're listening, TNT. Glory wants a mercy button. So uh install one if you can. We've been wrapped on the balls, we've enjoyed talking for you to listen to us. If you've enjoyed listening, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow. And we'll be back again next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Ta la for now.