Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls
Welcome to Rucks Mauls & Oval Balls, the ultimate podcast for all things English rugby! Hosted by two former university teammates who shared the pitch and forged a lasting bond, this show takes you behind the scenes of the rugby world, blending insightful analysis with a shared passion for the sport. Each episode dives deep into the game, with a special focus on statistics, player performance, team dynamics, and match breakdowns. Whether you're a die-hard fan or new to the game, Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls offers expert commentary, fun debates, and insider knowledge that you won’t find anywhere else. Tune in for the perfect mix of rugby banter, in-depth analysis, and a true love for the game!
Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls
S2 Ep 06 - Derby Days & Broken Plays
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Forget clichés—this weekend showed exactly who’s for real and who’s searching for answers. We start with Bath, who didn’t just win, they imposed a standard: relentless collisions, clean set-piece, and a midfield pairing that bends games their way. Even with rotation, they rolled Gloucester with control and depth that’s frankly scary. We break down why their structure travels and how Ojomoh-Lawrence unlocks space for Russell and Arundell to finish the job.
Then we head to the Stoop, where Harlequins flipped their script. Less “great entertainers,” more steel. Marcus Smith didn’t chase chaos—he manufactured it, pinning Saracens with a clinical kicking game and backing it with thunder in defence. Guido Petti set the tone, the Argentine bench added bite, and Chandler Cunningham-South took on Tom Willis—and won key moments. We talk about what this version of Quins means for the top four, and why Smith’s control changes the England 10 conversation.
At Franklin’s Gardens, Saints rode efficiency to beat Tigers. Alex Mitchell’s deception, Tommy Freeman’s lines, and Eduardo Todaro’s emergence made the difference, even as injuries forced changes. Leicester did plenty right—Freddie Steward was imperious and Emeka Ilione looked every inch an international-in-waiting—but lineout wobble and missed pressure told. We also dive into Sale’s ruthless dismantling of Newcastle, Bristol’s gritty edge against Exeter, and the growing gap between teams that manage territory and those that only manage phases.
We close with sharp Round 4 predictions and a form XV check—who’s the standout 10 right now: Ford, Smith, or Finn? Hit play for detailed breakdowns, honest takes, and a clear read on the Premiership landscape. If you’re into smart tactics, selection battles, and real talk about momentum, you’re in the right place. Enjoy the show, subscribe for weekly deep dives, and tell us your boldest Round 4 pick.
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Banter, Weddings & Westcliff Wins
SPEAKER_01Welcome, it's Raps Bulls and Balls, and we're back with episode six of what we are calling season two. And it is me, Dave, joined as ever, by our ever illustrious and glorious co-host, it's Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.
SPEAKER_00Hello, hello, listeners. Hello, David. How are you? I am very well, thank you very much, Rory. How are you? Oh yeah. Marvellous, marvellous. Off the back of uh a big weekend at a family wedding. So no game for old Roar this weekend, but uh a lot of our listeners were in attendance, so uh Oh really? It's always nice to hear. Congratulations, Owen, on uh on your nuptials. Thank you for all the free beer.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Were you getting inundated by fans? Is that what's is this what happened? You know, it's I was I was mobbed. You were mobbed, mobbed by the family. Well, congratulations to our listeners who are getting married. You've had a name check on the podcast. I'm assuming your favourite podcast. Uh so what's it tell me? And Rory's got himself out of a gift giving there, because that's as good as m- that's the best thing money can buy, I'd say.
SPEAKER_00Which is just as well because I didn't take a gift.
SPEAKER_01How very generous of you, Rory. Uh okay, well, that that means I can't ask you how the well, how did Westcliff do in your in the absence of their illustrious leader?
SPEAKER_00Not only did the Lions win, the ones got their first win against old Northamptonians, no less.
SPEAKER_01No less than the old Northamptonians. Well, that is good news for old Westcliff. Maybe uh maybe you should go to family weddings more often, Rory.
SPEAKER_00I'm clearly not needed, um, which had been rumoured before, but I didn't like to believe it. Yeah. But uh no massive, massive result it was for the for the ones to get their first win and uh another good win for the Lions. Um yeah, the the train keeps on tracking on. We're uh double Ws. Double Ws.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's great. Well, in my life, Rory, thanks for asking, by the way.
SPEAKER_00Um please, sorry, David, you have something going on, shortly.
SPEAKER_01Man v fat, not spoken about it for a little while. Um the North Bristol branch of Man vs Fat, of which I am a member of. Season two came to a finale last night of the league phase, anyway, where there are three league tables that are to be fought over over a period of a few months. The pitch league for the results on the pitch, the scales league for the results off the pitch, and the combined league mixing it all together. And I am captain of the mighty Saladsons, which is the green team for those who prefer colours. And we didn't win one league, Rory. What? We didn't win two leagues, Rory.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so far this is terrible news, David. No no league wins.
SPEAKER_01No, the Saladsons got a clean sweep, three league wins.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness, how many trophies are you taking home? Is that three? All three in the pocket. But even with your uh even with your post-gool blood abounce.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh I wanted to touch on that because I know some of them are listeners as well. Uh full credit to the other members of the green team who, without doubt, probably in spite of my best efforts to sabotage this season by putting on weight in a weight loss journey sort of event, we've still managed to come out on top. That says that says lots about the others in the team, uh, and ignoring me as their captain leading not very well by example.
SPEAKER_00So fair play to them, and fair play to all the other teams who really well done to all the lads and then every everyone involved in Man V Fat Rugby, because uh it's uh it's a program we're very uh we're very keen on. We're um we're obviously hoping that David will uh reaffirm his efforts to start dropping weights again come the next season, but uh at least uh at least the other lads didn't shirk their responsibilities.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. And uh yeah, next season I'm uh I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna say this now, it's not gonna happen, but I'm gonna try and push for a hall of fame sort of performance where I'm gonna try and lose weight every single week. Um, but these are big words.
SPEAKER_00Huge, huge words, but uh I I know you're capable of it, David. Even if all of your organs are working fully functionally, I'm I'm certain you can lose weight.
Man v Fat Clean Sweep
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well that's the problem. I'm a man of many words, but not so many actions. But we'll sh we shall see. We shall see. But I th I think I think that covers flirty banter, Rory. It's not been particularly flirty, but we can move on, because this podcast this podcast isn't about me, it's not about Rory, it's not about what goes on in our lives as much as we like to pretend it is. This is about rugby in well, it's not only about rugby of the Gallagher Premiership, but it's the only rugby going on at the moment we can really talk about. So we're gonna talk about Prem Rugby, and we're gonna talk through the five games that took place in round three this weekend, in vast detail. So if you love the detail, if you love the noise, you're in the right place. If you find all that really irritating, I'd recommend listening on one and a half speed, just to make your lives a bit easier.
SPEAKER_00Just a half half speed and really really stewing uh in our knowledge.
SPEAKER_01All that, all that. So, as ever, Rory, we're gonna start traditionally with the Friday night kickoff. Uh and obviously scratch that, Rory, actually. I'm gonna take us rewind a bit, Rory. This weekend was the Derby Day headline weekend that often gets pushed out. We spoke about it last year that we felt it was a bit of a missed target, that it wasn't really pushed enough.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was uh it was in the gap week, wasn't it? Where there was just one yeah it was.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you feel like it was any different this time round? Do you I I've and I'm asking that slightly loaded because I th I I have my feelings that I kind of think once again probably not pushed as much as it could have been.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I I don't think the um I don't think the Derby Day narrative really landed this weekend. But I think it might be because it was it's too early in the season, you don't really have the the storylines yet as in how the season's gonna go, barring one or two um examples. I think it's still the the state of the season's still a bit nebulous, I suppose, but um I think the general upward trend of of how Prem Rugby is being marketed is still on the on you know going well, and I think generally the weekend was well marketed. I just don't think that derby day narrative really landed, which is you know it's to be understood. It's and in some ways it's it's sort of secondary. If you can get another narrative going to boost that, then great. And you know, I think they should continue to do that, and the Derby Day weekends I think is a good idea. I think the it the problem you've got is, and we touched on it early on in the season, the the prem season's quite broken up across across the whole year, really. You know, we're we're very nearly into autumn internationals, yeah, then we're into Europe, then we're back for a bit, back into internationals, back into Europe. It's it's it's difficult to actually get a thread going. I think that was something you touched on quite early on, and actually, I think something like a Derby Day weekend does get lost in that.
Derby Day Hype vs Reality
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, for instance, put it to context to that, for my Northampton Saints season ticket, I'm not gonna be watching Northampton Saints at home in the Prem for seven or eight weeks now.
SPEAKER_00Which when you've paid for a season ticket feels a bit odd.
SPEAKER_01But you get the Premiership Rugby Cup, and I'm and I get the Champions Cup, but as a competition, Prem Rugby, I'm not seeing them at home for seven or eight weeks. They can't, and I think that emphasizes the point about how it is a very staggered competition. Yeah. Can't avoid it, it's unavoidable the way the rugby calendar's set up, and the way you do like it's not like football where you can have midweek fixtures. I it I that's just not feasible, I don't think, in professional rugby.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't think so. I don't what I just don't think you could you could possibly expect players to play twice in well, let's say less than six days, probably.
SPEAKER_01Well, if you consider it would be say a Friday night, Wednesday night, Sunday, that'll be three games in eight, nine days. It's not doable. Not doable.
SPEAKER_00You'd batter players doing that. And actually, you'd the rugby were tougher for it. But so yeah, I I I would agree that as a as a derby weekend, that didn't quite land. But as a weekend of rugby, I still think pretty good.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh yeah, do not get me wrong, I am not playing down the quality of the rugby this weekend, as I'm hoping we will be able to touch on over the next hour or so. Um but I suppose my only other question around this, Rory, as a Gloucester fan that you are, do you get excited about the prospect of watching, say, an East Midlands derby or watching Sale versus Newcastle because it's a derby, or is that just something that is kind of irrelevant to you as a fan who's obviously going to get up for Gloucester versus Bath because that is your derby. So I think my point is at this moment in time where rugby's still growing, a derby is only something that has been is exciting if you're vested into that derby.
SPEAKER_00Yes, but I would I would probably say that that is true of derbies in all sports.
SPEAKER_01I think the angle I'm getting at, so like the Manchester Derby, for instance, in football, because their fans are worldwide, it's a much bigger event. So it's when you market it, you're not marketing to Manchester locals, you're marketing it to the worldwide.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I see what you mean. I think what you also have to take into account is that even regionally, rugby's still quite small. I mean, let's be realistic. Yes, it was Gloucester's Derby weekend, but we're playing Bristol this weekend, we've got extra, you know, coming up after that. Yeah, yeah. It's not it's not like we're short of derbies really in the West Country.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, it might as well just be a South West League at some point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So um I think I think your issue your issue is always going to be that there just isn't a large enough fan base to create that kind of fervor. And you know, an East Midlands derby, it's fierce and it is one of the great derbies between Northampton and Leicester. But let's be entirely realistic. Northampton and Leicester are not exactly two global metropolises that attract yet. Yet, yes, don't get me wrong, there's nothing to say that Northampton won't be just like Manhattan one day. Um but right this minute it's mostly just got that big chimney where they test elevators or whatever it is in the yeah, and the home of Carlsburg. And the home of Carl, well, isn't that Denmark?
SPEAKER_01Well, the home of British Carlsburg. So and shoes, and shoes, um and shoes, you'd love a shoe. Yeah, yeah, we love a shoe. Okay, well let's move it, let's move into the rugby, Rory, before whilst well, whilst we pontificate about the uh intricacies of Derby Day fixtures. Friday night, Sail Sharks versus Newcastle Red Bulls. Um where do we start here? Um is this a sign of more things to come for Newcastle Red Bulls? Because it was a bit of a canter for sale. Let's just be honest, let's not beat around the bush.
Sale 57–5 Newcastle: What’s Wrong?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they they they really didn't have to get out of third gear to to put 50 points on uh on Newcastle here, did they? Um I I mean look, I think we still have to accept that Newcastle are awaiting some signings to be integrated back into the team. Yeah, could well make a big difference. Um, and they I suspect will be doing a bit of short-term shopping as well to help bolster some of their ranks. I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two short-term contracts from the Southern Hemisphere come in on you know big paydays for a few months just to just to boost things a little bit more. Um, but we you have to be realistic about it. You know, Newcastle looked pretty abject in this one, if we if we're being totally frank. Um, it's you know, it's one of the things that got really highlighted, I think was Austin Healy got a be in his bonnet about it in the game, was the lack of pressure on Ford for when he was kicking. And actually, once they pointed out and you start going, oh, actually, they're not making those double efforts. Ironically, the sort of thing that a Steve Diamond team is typically emblematic in. Um so interesting. I don't they make correlation does not equal causation, but you know, early evidence suggests that um there's not been a post-head coach switch bounce. Um it's it's going to be tough for them um when they're making just such basic defensive errors. I mean, the the first try for Rob Depreer when Gus War was able to get that offload away down in the corner, and really he should have been buried. And you know, anyone who's watched Gus War on the telly will have a desire to have buried him, even if you're a Sale fan, probably, to have buried him into the into the advertising hoardings. The fact that they didn't do that um is not a great sign of the physicality they're bringing at the moment, um, and it didn't really get better from there. I mean, Robux first try, it's a really nice run in line from him, but he canters through seven, eight Newcastle players untouched. Yeah. Um, you know, and Luke Cow and Dickheat just tap penalty five metres, they don't stop him and he spins and puts it down.
SPEAKER_01That shouldn't happen, really, should it? Not not in the elite level.
SPEAKER_00No, no, you should never be able you, you know, that it that is even at Lions level, you know, I would struggle to, and I'm a big lad, I I don't make that kind of ground. You know, admittedly, I'm less explosive than Luke Cow and Dicky, but I'm not I'm not really fractionally Rory only. Only fractionally, but I'm also not being tackled by Aminaki Maffey either. So true, yeah, true. Very good point. You know, it's all relative. Um, and it's you know, the the Red Bull's set piece dreadful, their line out, which you know, they how many malls do they knock on?
SPEAKER_01Three or four? For me, that's one of the biggest surprises of me for me this season. Considering, say, two players they brought in, George McGuigan, Freddie Clark, played together last season at Gloucester at a side that had a strong set piece. It seems like that connection, anything that where it where's it gone? Unless everyone all the other six just haven't are on a completely different planet. I just don't see why there isn't that connection that they could build on.
SPEAKER_00It's uh it must it has to be a mentality issue, really, because is it a belief? You know, it's a line out mall is a lot of moving parts, and there's a lot of physicality and confrontation in it. You know, I'm not saying these are these are all the easiest things to to execute. No, no, no, absolutely not. But you know, knocking it on three or four times as you come down for a line out mall, that is criminal. That is just that is that is you know, being able to at least get a mall set up is table stakes at at this level. You know, it's it's basics, it is basics. But yeah, I unfortunately the only positive thing for Newcastle was how good their away kit looked.
SPEAKER_01Like I think it was voted the best kit in the league, wasn't it? Um someone who someone who ran a vote.
SPEAKER_00I think it's earned that. I think it's a really nice kit, and sadly it's that might be the only win they get. Yeah, it's just it's just a shame. Um because obviously we started the season, you know, and look, we we've we were up front row, we didn't think they'd they'd have a massive bounce, but I didn't expect them to be I thought they'd be more competitive. Yeah, I've I thought they'd be more competitive than they have been.
SPEAKER_01Um may I I I saw someone talking about yes, they brought in some really good names who have some Prem experience. But was this is this players whose peak is behind them? Like, would you say these players that they brought in would walk into other prem clubs at the moment? And I got thinking Fergus Lee Warner, great player, would would he walk into every Prem club at the moment? Not certainly.
SPEAKER_00I mean, look, if if you'd be if you wanted to be unkind about it, you could say there are reasons why these players weren't under contract at that time. Um you know, and you know, that's the reality. You know, play surefire stars at prem level are not available at that time of year. You have to make they had to make do with what was available, yeah. But you know, as you say, Freddie Clark was one of Gloss' has been one of Gloss' best performers for three years. Um Fergus Lee Warner is a really high-level performer. George McGuigan at at one time was one of the most bankable try-scorers in the league off the back of Malls. And at the moment they're not really executing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think are we seeing the end product of a side that's gone through huge change through the offseason, off the pitch, all of a sudden change in the coaching department at quite late notice, and I I would suspect the players didn't see it coming as well from kind of how I'm I'm witnessing it. Are we just seeing that amount of change is just unmanageable from any angle to kind of keep a product going on the pitch of any quality, do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean they to be honest, they look at they look a little bit in disarray on the pitch. And maybe that can be competitive. I mean, Alan Dickens is a really highly rated coach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um he may well be able to pull the threads together over the next couple of months, you know, hopefully be able to get some momentum in the Prem Cup, maybe, um, and just start building solid connections. Um but at the moment it looks pretty dire, and it's none of these things are easy fixes because you're already they're already starting at disadvantage in a lot of different ways. And they don't look like they've kicked on um at all, which is just it's just gonna be a tough pill to swallow for them, and they're gonna need to keep the faith, and they're gonna need Rebel to keep the faith as well, obviously. Um and hopefully they can they can turn it around sooner rather than later, but I would expect certainly pre-Christmas it's not gonna get a huge amount better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I I fear you may be right, but we've always said from the start this is a long-term project. Uh when you see the Newcastle, you see the Newcastle fans in like Facebook groups moaning about it, as like you need you need to look at the three, five year picture, not the three, five-month picture. On the other side of this fixture, Rory, some uh some notable performances from some of the Sales Sharks lads. One one name that I particularly want to draw attention to. Uh I very rarely do this to a player coming off the bench, but Nathan Jabulu, I genuinely think an absolute coup of a signing the way he started this season. Yeah. Uh, looking how his old club are kind of faring as well. Thoughts on Jabulu?
Jabulu’s Impact and Sale Standouts
SPEAKER_00Uh, I mean, I like him a lot. I think um I think it's it looked a good signing as a squad player when it first came out before I knew masses about him. I'd watched him a few times here and there. Um, you know, following the story a little bit more over the last few months, you start to think, okay, there's there's definitely something in this. He's you know, the boy has got a lot going for him. And then actually watching him get proper run-outs at this level, you you see, oh, there, you know, this is there's really something in this. Um, not the finished article. I think his darts are still not there. Um, and that might some, you know, again, warring line out stuff, but it's a lot of different moving parts. Not everything will be down to the hooker's throw as much as it is often made out to be that way. Yeah. But there are some some issues there, and and you know, he'll need to tighten that up if he's got ambitions to go as far as excuse me, certainly I think he um he can go, but to be someone uh with that explosivity in the loose, a good turn of pace, real scrummaging shape and strength, and to be a genuine competition for someone as good as Luke Cow and Dickey, I think people can afford to get properly excited about him. Um he's I was trying to think what sort of player he sort of reminds me of. I mean, I think there's a little bit of the there's there's quite a South African style, I think, to him in some ways, very confrontational type of ball carrier. Yes, absolutely. You know, he he carries similar to like uh Bongia Menambi, even a Malcolm Marks to a certain extent. Um, but I also get the impression he's got a real appreciation for the um the kind of classics of a of an English hooker. Seems like a guy who likes a mole, likes a scrum, you know, he's got that kind of I see a little bit of the Tom Dunn game in him. Well, Tom Dunn was the name that was about to mention. Yeah, he's a there's a bit of Tom Dunn in the way that he approaches the game as well. And actually, if you can combine those kind of traits, you are you are literally the full package there. Yeah, um, so it you know, he is one that I am genuinely excited to see how he develops. I think maybe probably a bit early at international with the competition ahead of him, but he is there'll be no doubt he's on the radar.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe this world cup cycle may be too soon, with like you say, with the names currently there, but the likes of Jamie George, Cow and Dickey, whether they go beyond the this World Cup cycle, then we're talking the Theodans, the Jabulus, or Greys, whoever else gets their name in the frame to a Pilotu.
SPEAKER_00I I think I think he's he's in direct competition right this moment with Blamea for that third spot. Yeah, Blame's probably got the edge on him because he's got that bit more experience, but you know, you want to keep an eye on him. You would be you'd be looking over your shoulder if you were Blemayer, certainly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and if um if I was Luca Cow and Dicky, I'd be looking over my shoulder at club level as well. Yes, yeah, 100%. If he keeps coming off the bench and performing as he does, you can only do that for so long without thinking, well, let's get him starting it week in, week out, and that's probably Sanderson's plan is to keep the standards high. Um elsewhere in the sale ranks, any other players impress you?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, you know, you have to mention Robark getting a hat trick. Yeah, an inspired pick by myself in my fantasy team, I must say. Um pulling that one out of nowhere. Wish I captained him. Um I think he's you know, he's one who's been his stock's been rising for a couple of years, really took his opportunity when he got it in the Six Nations and over the summer. Yeah, it was very good over the summer, right? And and actually, I think when he first burst onto the scene, if you like, then he was probably seen as more of just a high ball chaser and regatherer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Actually, his all-round game is now getting much more akin to someone like Tommy Freeman. It's the comparison odd make as well. Uh you know, I mean, obviously similar sized players, um, you know, really similar stature to them. But Tommy Freeman's got such a great skill set. If Robuk can bring that as well, on top of his physicality and his ability in the air, you know, you start to ask real questions about who your best back three is for England, and he's you know, really good feet, real pat real pace to him, and the strength to finish his third try, I think it was, through two players. No, and he he did a very similar job against uh Wales and the Six Nations. So, you know, you can make comparisons as to how strong the defences were in both uh both examples, but um you know, just the fact that he can he can do that, yeah. You know, it's it's it's an interesting prospect that picking that back three for England at the moment.
SPEAKER_01I am I am looking forward to the podcast where we will be debating the England squad for the Autumn Internationals because uh the depth at the moment, particularly in that position, is incredible. So I'm looking forward to that debate.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean we're gonna touch on a few more players who are in that debate later on.
SPEAKER_01I think we may do. I think we may do.
SPEAKER_00Uh but no, I mean, you know, he's definitely he's definitely one who is has started the season like an absolute freight train. Uh Joe Carpenter's another who's playing well. Ben Bamba's one who's really coming.
SPEAKER_01Stock is rising, stock is rising.
SPEAKER_00Stock is really rising there. Um Doug Dale again, I think's I think it's been really good. Um but I'm really liking the look of Rod and the Poca for Jori at Proper game.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's just that that that sale front row is is something else with it.
SPEAKER_00Such a good unit. Yeah, yeah. It's you know, I think I think the South Africans really proved this in the last couple of World Cup cycles, is that you have to think about front rows as units rather than as individual players. And if you're picking scrums, if you look at uh Rod, Cow and Dickey and a poker for joy and actually Jabulu as well, in there, they're all such similar kind of height and not necessarily exactly the same shape, but similarish stature that when they get their scrummaging right, it's very difficult to shift them because they're so in sync. Yeah, you know, you could do worse than picking an all-sail front row either to start or on the bench for England because they're the shark tank.
SPEAKER_01Send on the shark tank.
SPEAKER_00I I mean I don't hate that, I don't hate that as a moniker in the slightest.
Bristol 18–14 Exeter: Cards, Injuries, Choices
SPEAKER_01Uh feel free to use that one. TNT Sports, BBC, ITV. Just remember you heard it here first, people. The Shark Tank. Uh yeah, so I I think in summary, Rory, this game. I I if you hadn't picked up the tone, it was a 50-point hammering. Sale sharks winning 57-5 against the Newcastle Red Bulls. Big bonus point win for sale. Uh, more questions than answers for Newcastle. Uh let's move on. Second game, Rory. Bristol Bears versus Extra Chiefs. The Bears licking their wounds, quite literally. The Chiefs on a high going into this game. I had lofty expectations for a Chiefs win. I know you predicted a Bears win. I I know you're about to say that. Um let's face it. Let's talk about the 20-minute red card rule again because I think that again had a part to play in this.
SPEAKER_00Um was a stonewall res. Yes. Um, and actually it's not as bad as the Michelow one in the first week.
SPEAKER_01Is the 20-minute red card now a cop-out for a ref?
SPEAKER_00No, it's a poor challenge. It's a really poor challenge, and it's it's not I'm not gonna dig him out enough to say that he's deliberately done that to Ross Vincent, but he's not tried not to do it. It's uh yeah, it's poor from Tom Jordan. And on top of anything else, if you're a Bears fan, it's another he's left you in a real hole because it's another backline player they're losing out on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that'd be that'd be minimum three. Well, looking at how long did Michelow get? Did he get a four-week ban?
SPEAKER_00Michelow got four. I would imagine this would be a three or four week uh Genj limped off as well in this one. Carrington as well. Carrington off with an HIA.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's I I've I saw in the week Pat Lamb saying he's never seen anything like it. And I could I could echo that. I as a fan, I don't think I've seen a team decimated by injuries quite so much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just an absolute massacre so far. Um, you know, we're going on a bear hunt.
SPEAKER_01They need some they do need some. They need more than Matthias Moroni, I'll tell you that. Yeah. I think the break in the league that we spoke about earlier, I think, is coming at a good time for them at least. Um you know, in this fixture alone, they somehow pulled off a win, Rory.
SPEAKER_00Well, if you're an Extra fan, you sh have every right to be mightily frustrated how Exeter didn't come away with a win in that one. Um, all of the pressure in the second half, Bears barely got out of their own 22. Yeah. Um I reckon just absolutely desperate to find a player who they can trust to kick for the sticks. Because how many penalties did they turn down points on? I don't know. I I honestly I I I don't know how many they turned down, but it was too many. Uh the answer is too many. Given they were only a point down at the time, to not convert any of that into points in the second half is just ludicrous, isn't it? Yeah, um, and it's really inaccurate, actually. I mean, in the first half in particular, they had quite a lot of possession, and you know, it looks quite nice. It's it's you know, they're pretty fast moving the ball from the breakdowns, quite nice patterns, they just don't make any ground. You know, and you think with you know, you've got Manifo Bosa, you've got Paul Brown Bampo, you've got Fissel out, Vincent, you know, got a massive front row, Zamboni, Roots, you know, even Slate, you know, none of them could make ground. It's just, you know, the Bears, the Bears are not a bad defensive unit, but you know, no one no one's gonna sit there and tell me that the Bears is the most physical defence in the league.
SPEAKER_01Well, they were they were renowned last year for having a motto of let's not bother training defence because we'll just score more tries than we concede.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. Well, I mean you're you're you're right. Last year they were basically Swiss cheese.
SPEAKER_01But then again, last year they didn't have 20 players missing, and we did see a very different style of play this week, I would say.
SPEAKER_00Well we we did, but even then, I mean, even in that game, they actually weren't they they tackled very physically, but they weren't flying off the line. No, no, no. They weren't putting massive amounts of pressure on Exeter, they were just basically leaving the breakdown alone by and large, unless a really obvious opportunity for Hardin or Ogre typically appeared. And the rest of the time they were just sort of waiting for Exeter to approach them and then just tacking them at tackling them at the game line. Yeah, you know, Exeter went through a few examples where they did seven, eight, nine, ten phases and made virtually no ground. And it's just it's poor game management, isn't it? Why it's poor game management, but it's also it's just it's just poor. It's just poor to not to have that much ball and make no ground whatsoever. I mean, someone surely got to cut a line or just run it up the guts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I but I I still think like you need someone like a slade, and I think this is the extra big problem in the 10 shirt. Harvey Skiller's had a fairly decent start to the season, but you need someone. If you're getting to the fifth or sixth phase and you're not making any ground to do something different, it's the like you don't just keep repeating the same thing that's not working because it's gonna keep not working. You need to have different ideas, and I think that's where they're lacking. I I was speaking to an extra fan uh at Man vs. Fat, uh, and they said that they they think part of the problem is is that they've almost become so reliant on Fayo Roboso and Pow Brown Bampo to be the game breakers and the line breakers that they come searching for the ball all the time in the middle of the field. The second that stops working, it means they're out of position quite a lot of the time, and then they're not on the edges where they need to be to kind of break the line on the edge, and perhaps they're just falling into this trap of becoming quite reliant on just one or two rather than having other options.
Exeter’s Stalled Attack and Game Management
SPEAKER_00I mean, so much for them now seems to hinge on Lenny Katao hitting the ground running, which he, you know, he may want to do it. Every chance he will do, um, although I think he's probably in the wallabies squad, isn't he? So he's not gonna be in, he's not gonna be in immediately. They're just they just look like a team desperate for a game breaker in the middle of the park because at the moment, you know, Fizzelow, Vincent, and Kane James are all really, really good players, but they're not massive physical players. Ethan Roots is a really good defensive player, but he's not really an attacking game breaker. Russ Tuema doesn't really seem to have kicked on, Chuncer doesn't really seem to have kicked on. Their front rowers are big lads, but they're not they're not dynamic ball carriers, you know.
SPEAKER_01They're set piece, they're set piece warriors more than anything.
SPEAKER_00The front row's picked for the set piece, and is what you're saying. That's not a great ball carrier, realistically. Zamboni looked alright, but he's still he's a 20-year-old. Yeah, it's I do like they're just missing something in the middle.
SPEAKER_01And I feel like I should remind well, correct you, because I do appreciate you keep calling him Zamboni, but it's Zambonin. Um I do I like Zamboni, but just before I might stick with Zamboni. I I like it. So is are we seeing the fact that they've well they're rate they're waiting on Tom Hooper maybe, but they haven't replaced Jack for Mueller.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, yeah, it was a tough man to replace. Tom Hooper, yeah. I think actually Tom Hooper isn't in the Wallaby squad, so he may be coming in, um, maybe coming in quicker. But yeah, I mean Tom Hooper and Lenny Katal probably do make a big difference to that team. That's probably that's probably a fair assessment of it, but it still hinges quite a lot on quite a small number of players, really. It just feels it feels like a team that is playing a style of play that isn't quite suiting the personnel at the moment.
SPEAKER_01I've I've apparently some Extra fans are suddenly starting to question whether Rob Baxter is actually the Messiah. And they fully accept his statue is fully warranted outside Sandy Park, but maybe, just maybe, they might be starting to think that maybe he may not be the man to steer them for the remainder of eternity.
SPEAKER_00Well, the coach in Merigaran at Sandy Park hasn't really yielded anything over the last couple of years, has it? So it's it's possible a new voice is needed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and they were able to clutch defeat from the jaws of victory in a game that they really should have won. Uh let's face it. Bristol getting the points, fair play to them with the squad they've got, and the players getting injured again in the game. I just I really didn't see them getting a win here, but hey, sometimes I'm wrong, and sometimes Rory's right. Uh the game ended 18-14. Ashton Gate wasn't a massive spectacle, I'd say. Good game of rugby, but let's move on to the next game, Rory. One that I'm keen to discuss. The East Midlands derby, Northampton Saints versus Leicester Tigers. Returning Lions 4 for Northampton Saints, Leicester keen to upset Northampton once again at home. Uh I was there, I was in the crowd, surrounded by lots of one-eyed Saints fans, as you like to point out. Uh so before I go on to my experience, as as someone who would have watched the game with a slightly less green-tinted lens, what did you make of the game, Rory?
SPEAKER_00Uh a really interesting game, really. Um I think you could probably make the argument to that Saints got a little bit out of jail with this one. Not because they didn't deserve any of their tries, and not even because Tigers were brilliant. I would probably still say that Saints were quite scrappy in a lot of this.
SPEAKER_01Very scrappy. And um I'm guessing the angry go at we go uh took good fortune from this funny-shaped ball that we like to watch play.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you know, Bellow's um Tony Bellew's chip and chase fell kindly, but you know, you make your own kind of luck with that. He's spotted the opportunity and he took it. So I don't I don't begrudge don't begrudge him that at all. I think I think they've just probably shaded this one. But, you know, let's be realistic, Tigers got four penalties in this one and scored a couple of tries. Actually, if Tigers have converted some of their pressure into points, um this this wasn't necessarily a runaway game for Saints, but they just they do score really good tries, you know. You can't argue that. Bellew's first try was a great sweeping move from end to end off the back of a I think it was an overthrow from Tigers, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Their line out went a little bit to pop. Yeah, uh Finn Smith, the first try that came out of Alex Mitchell, somehow managed to dummy everyone else on the pitch and go down the blind side and just managed to feed in Ben Smith from there. You know, great bit of play from him, but it's really just come off a bad defensive read from Tigers. Um Todoro, his try was particularly good. I thought that was a particularly good team try. Yeah, Tommy Freeman really, really heavily involved. That I think that was the moment when you actually look the best in terms of a whole move. Um but then he you know, he obviously also then makes the break and feeds in Pearson for his try just before half time, and that maybe was the game breaker. Yeah. Um it's I don't know, it's an interesting game watching it because I never really felt like either team had full control. No like in the in the stands. But as I was watching that game, if I if I hadn't known the score, I'd have been watching that game thinking no team wants to win this.
Saints 32–26 Tigers: Chaos and Class
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was an interesting one. So right when I looked back at the stats, I think it showed how little of the ball Northampton had compared to Leicester. So I think we had to absorb a lot of pressure, and then I think one of the good things with Northampton is when they do get the ball, they tend to be quite clinical, although they'll it the first half was very scrappy, there was a lot of mistakes. The the feeling round the the ground was please this let this not be another second half capitulation. Yeah. So thankfully that didn't happen. Uh it was at least a resemblance of an 80-minute performance, although it was a bit touch and go at times. But generally, I uh certainly from where I was sitting, there was a huge difference in how the backs moves were flowing. Like when when they are in full flow, they are so exciting and brilliant to watch. And I I I think when when they are on song and they're all on the same page, I don't think there's another backline out there in the league that is quite as exciting to watch, maybe. I'm not sure what the correct word is, but it's it's it's really quite something when you watch it in person.
SPEAKER_00It's it's yeah, it's well it's their ability to execute skills under speed and pressure is probably second to none in the league. I mean, you I'm Bristol fans will be screaming at us for for not saying them, but actually Bristol cough up more opportunities than they take a lot of the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um their style's more hair and scare em, where I think the Saints style is much more stylised and it's deliberate and it's it's bad.
SPEAKER_00I think I I think that's I I do think that's a fair assessment. Um I think it's I would have said last year Gloucester's back line was probably in a similar day. Yeah, not so much this year. It's it's when you watch a back line that where everyone is really sure of their job and also sure of their options, and they're all working in a fluid way where if someone changes the options, everyone else knows exactly how to move and how to execute and how to take advantage of that at the right time. That's what Northampton are really good at. Yeah, because actually it's not that they're playing loads of really set moves all the time, but what they they all seem to understand when they get the ball. It's I guess it's similar to similar to similar most similar analogy I could think off the top of my head would be when you're watching a really good drive in NFL, and they're obviously there's plan A, there's a you know the the route, there's plan A for the route, and then there's plan B, and there's plan C and then there's plan D. And everyone knows as it evolves where they need to go to execute the next plan. And I think Northampton are the best at that in that everyone seems to understand, okay, we're going for this, if that's not quite happening, we're doing this, if that's not quite happening, we're doing this. But they're all moving in, they're all in motion the whole time, which makes it I you know, I think they have the most attractive attacking rugby in the league.
SPEAKER_01And I I I think it's also worth adding to the context in this fixture alone, again, injuries lost George Hendy after 20 minutes, Tommy Freeman just after half time.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna bring this up. How are you feeling about prospects having lost both of those now? Do we know reports on injuries yet?
SPEAKER_01Uh Wednesday, so well, to the listener, today um is when we'll be waiting for the injury update to come out from Phil Dowson. The fact that they let Freeman come out after half time makes me hope that it's not something serious, because if it was more serious, they would have took him off straight away. But I did have my doubts when he just pulled up after collecting that high ball and it there was like no one around him. That is usually a red flag for something that needs to be happening. So I was surprised he came back out after half time. Hendy, he's very unlucky with injuries. I would not be surprised the way he was had to be helped off. If that's maybe another lengthy layout, I hope not.
SPEAKER_00It's such a shame because actually the starting backline.
SPEAKER_01Um we just never get to see our full strength backline. We just don't ever get to see it.
SPEAKER_00As a starting backline, it's it it it looked good, and it you know, it was it looked good for the first 20 minutes or so when they had opportunities. Um, you know, I say Litchfield, I think, is a really good player. He did you know, particularly last season, did a really good job on the wing. Uh it's natural position, and I thought Tony Belly did a very good job standing in at fullback. Um, but yeah, obviously Furbanks out, Ram, I think, is still out, isn't he? Yeah, slight homes out. Slight homes out. Well, I saw a picture of him this week, and he is looking real swallow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but all I can say is thank God, our man, our Italian stallion, Eduardo Todaro, is hitting the ground running earlier than we anticipated. Uh that man. He's quickly becoming quickly becoming a fan favourite.
SPEAKER_00Do we think senior Italian call-up incoming?
SPEAKER_01Because I'd love to see him with Capuzzo and uh I think maybe autumn may be too soon. If he keeps getting game time, I can see him getting his six nations call-up. If he keeps playing the way he is. You have to remember that this he only just qualified for like under 20s like last year.
SPEAKER_00So doesn't look like he doesn't look out of place physically, does he?
SPEAKER_01No, no, and he he he cat he's one of those that kind of punches above his weight. Uh he seems really hard to stop, he always fights for extra metres. Like I'm loving it. He is quickly becoming a fan favourite. But I don't want to turn this into a Northampton Saints specific uh we should work on Tigers. Well, no, no. Before Tigers, you know, I know injuries are bad, but sometimes they affect referees as well, Rory. And for the second time already this season, a referee is down. It's an injury plague is going on, Rory. The not even the refs are safe. What's going on?
Saints’ Backline Brilliance, Injuries Bite
SPEAKER_00Someone's put a curse on the league. No, no one is safe at the moment. Um, yeah, it's weird. It's weird. I think before this season I'd seen a referee be substituted maybe once two or three times, and now it's happened twice in a kick in as many weeks. It's weird. It is weird. Uh I don't know. I honestly don't know what's going on at the moment. No one seems robust.
SPEAKER_01The refs are in danger. Someone needs to keep an eye out. And it's interesting because it's it's bringing refs onto the pitch who I've not heard of before. Uh, and I think it's safe to say the perhaps one-eyed crowd at Franklin's Gardens, although I'm not going to suggest that they are one-eyed at all, because I am amongst them. We're not particularly fond of the referee that stood in for Luke Pierce. But then again, we'll we're no refs ever loved by a crowd. Um, but yes, let's talk about Leicester. I I think the first thing I want to touch on, Rory, and from the the comfort of my seat in the churches stand, the first thing that I took note of and wanted to bring to this podcast was to talk about Amika Ilioney, and I feel like he must listen to us because he was like, Tom Willis isn't the only number eight who runs like with hate in his eyes because I saw it high knees. Yes, and I was like, that is that's Tom Willis-esque, and I thought he's listening to us because well, I I was surprised to see him pick to eight.
SPEAKER_00Um I've only I've never seen him pick to eight pick to eight. I mean, obviously he was he's perfectly capable of it as he as he's proven. Um and I guess that they wanted to get a cut another Fetcher and Rafael on the pitch. Uh I I'd hoped he was a player who could be rangy in the in the loose, and he more than proved that for Stewart's try. Uh really was taking a try. Uh before we touch on that, Freddie Stewart, excellent game.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant game, yeah. I think that's his best game for a while in a Leicester shirt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, superb under the hybrid as he often is, but just all rounds excellent, I thought. Yeah, it was absolutely imperious in the air, it was very annoying. Yeah, but yeah, for Emika, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Outside that England squad.
SPEAKER_00Well, I say we're we're in danger of um putting the cart up in front of the horse on his one because uh we know we know how tough it's gonna be to break into the back row of England, and there's a lot of competition there. What I will say is if England are looking for ways to increase the average height across the pack and get a good line out option, who's got an all-round skill set, and very physical, very physical. Um, this is a really high flute in comparison, but a little bit of the Peter Stefter toy in the in that sense of being ticking all those boxes, yeah, yeah. Tall, rangey, great over just madly flexible. His ability to jackal at that height is insane to get that low and in that good a position. You know, I say he's he's still on his development curve. I think he's what 23, maybe 24. Um obviously he's got his his medical studies as well, so you know it's it's all gonna be up to him in terms of what he prioritises. But what I would what I would say is he's ticking a lot of boxes for the type of player Steve Borthwick likes. Yeah, and the fact that he's that tall is a huge bonus for him because actually having someone who can who can be a genuine line out option and threat, as well as bringing that kind of physicality around the park and be a jackal threat. Yeah, that is those are those are three very high up priorities for international back rows at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I guess he's probably directly competing with Ted Hill, Chandler Cunningham South.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh it doesn't seem like Ted Hill is fancied for whatever reason. Obviously, we don't know the reason, but he's but he's not fancy and he is injury prone. Chandler Cunningham South I think's gonna be in the mix, but whether they see him as a lock or a back row, we don't know. You know, but as a as a solid six option, he's gotta be in the run-in for it. He's gotta be in he's gotta be at least in the sh on the long list.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think other than Amika Ilioni on the Leicester performance, I think Billy Searle's probably another name I'd draw out. I think off the T, he looks pretty dependable. He seems to have a pretty solid all-round game in the 10 shirt. It wasn't a noticeable difference when James O'Connor came on.
SPEAKER_00I think Billy Searle started the season really well. Yeah. Um last it was very good last week. Um really good this week. I you know, obviously he's had a bit of a journey since Worcester went under, and he's been around a little bit. I think he was in France last season. Um, but he's what he is is a very dependable 10, I think. Um he's probably never gonna go beyond being a uh you know a starting 10 at a Prem level, but actually you don't necessarily need that, particularly when you've got a pack like Leicester's to be an option with O'Connor and Bailey. You know, I think he's he's pushing pushing for that starting tensure amongst all of those.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I think you're quite right. But yeah, so the the game itself, Northampton finishing the game with a bonus point 32-26. It was very tight towards the end. Leicester were really pushing for it. Uh, thankfully, Northampton were able to take advantage of a kind of misfiring Leicester Tigers line out, uh, and were able to kind of hold on to that and not have another second half collapse, which was good to see as a Saints fan. Uh uh moving on from Franklin's Gardens, we roll off into probably a game that you don't want to spend too much talking about, Rory. But it was the uh the Bath Gloucester Derby. Thoughts had been worse, could have been worse, could have been worse.
Tigers’ Bright Spots: Steward & Ilione
SPEAKER_00You were predicting worse, I think. So uh I was I was certainly concerned about it being worse. Um look, it's I don't think anyone was particularly surprised to see Bath win this. Um you know the it's we're gonna run out very quickly this season for plaudits for this Bath team.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm already trying to think of new ways to describe how strong their pack is and how exciting it is to see their centres operate and Henry Arundel looking good, yeah. And you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean let's let's let's just wrap let's let's rattle this off a little bit. Let's just rattle off some some names. Uh Oli Lawrence uh looking powerful, looking confident, scored a really good try physically, right through the guts. Uh turnovers, big tackles, link in play, looks, if not back to his best, not far off. Yeah, just absolutely superb. Uh Maxijomo, um, all-round skill set. It working in tandem with Lawrence, really exciting prospect. Got to be something that England are looking at because they look a really good pairing together. His just his development curve is just continuously going up and up. Still on the up. Henry, yeah. Henry Arundel. Uh, we thought he was a bit shaky the first week of the season. Well, by week three, he's looking pretty much superb, virtually faultless. Um poor for Will Joseph's tribe, but um, other than that, pretty much faultless. Uh Finn Russell back looking great. Obviously, got the yellow card and still look brilliant the other 70 minutes he was on the pitch. So great. Well done them. Uh Carl Smith came in at nine, didn't feel like they missed Ben Spencer, so excellent, great. And then in terms of the pack, whole front row, brilliant, really strong, really good scrum. Uh, Tom Dunn getting a try from the back of them all, no surprises there. Ewan Richards getting a double, so good.
SPEAKER_01Hey, hey, Rory, let's just stop there for a second and take a little bit of credit, pat ourselves on the back because I think we may be the best talent spotters in rugby. Because how long we've been banging on about Ewan Richards.
SPEAKER_00And I think we both tipped him at the start of the season to be the breakthrough player.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we we we I think our record is better than anyone's spotted haven't it's peerless. So absolutely peerless. So, yeah, once again, we've been absolutely spot on. Unfortunately, that has meant that he really put a nail in the coffin on Gloucester's Bay. Uh, by having two really good tries.
SPEAKER_00I mean, to be fair, it would have been nice if Ross Byrne hadn't literally thrown the ball to him for one of those. Um, he was feeling generous. He was feeling generous to you and there on that one. Uh, really quick for the size of him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I do know what it's you mentioned fantasy rugby earlier. I was this close to putting him in the team, and I just I didn't have another transfer, and I didn't want to lose the four points on the super brew, so I didn't do it, and I gutted. Oh, I think one thing I know we've finished Northampton game, but I did just want a quick shout out. Vandemesh had his best game so far, but we'll move back on to your game.
SPEAKER_00On the up, on the up. Uh sorry, just get keep rattling this through. Uh Guy Pepper, mutant everywhere, Sam Underhill, mutant everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Um is it scary that Bath almost sent out a rotated squad and still looked unbeatable?
SPEAKER_00It's just it it's yeah, we we will stop speculating at some point on how they're managing all of this, but it's you know you can't compete with that on a on a an 18-week season. Uh just across 18 weeks, that level of class just rises above everyone else, doesn't it? It's it's impossible really to compete with that. Um, there's maybe two or three teams in the league that might have a chance. All you've got to do, I think at this point the rest of the team's gonna be like, Look, if we get to the playoffs in a one-off game, we might be able to do it. Because across 18 weeks, ultimately Bath are gonna come top.
SPEAKER_01Um I think at this point that's that's almost yeah, yeah, it is scarily almost looks ominous. It's just whether they can go the entire game without losing at all. Because I I at the moment I struggle to see where they lose a game, and I say this as a Northampton fan, and I've got the utmost belief that Northampton can beat them on their day, but at the moment, Bath just look just a different level to everyone else, um, which is quite scary.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we just look for the players they brought on. I mean, brought on Santi Carreras and Chris Harris in a in a move of supreme trolling on their part. Yeah. Um, really uh upsetting for us to watch. Uh Thomas DeToi. Tupelo came on, yeah. Who's one of the best up and coming hookers in the in the league, so not even their second choice hooker, third choice, probably at this point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
Bath 38–17 Gloucester: Power and Depth
SPEAKER_00Thomas DeToy came on. Best tight end in the world. Best tight end in the world. Uh Marles Reed, one of the most consistent premiership performers for several years, came on. Uh Alfie Barry at least had the decency to not be able to catch the cold. Um that was nice of him. Yeah, but obviously, outside of that, he's generally brilliant. Um, you know, it's just you go, what are you gonna do? What do we do? Yeah, what do we do?
SPEAKER_01Well, let's on Gloucester. Yeah. One thing I want to say, Will Joseph, his try was prime JJ. It was like watching his older brother at the wreck again. It was almost uncannily identical to the way Jonathan Joseph played.
SPEAKER_00Scary. Second week in a row, he's pulled out breaks like that. And actually he pulled out two breaks in this game because he was responsible for Ben Loder's try as well with another superb break. In Will Joseph, I have hope that we've got a player with the game-breaking ability to drag us out of the rut that we're in. Um Seb Atkinson going off is an absolute nightmare. Yeah, as Max the Wellins out as well. We uh that is real, real problems for us.
SPEAKER_01I think Gloucester are probably second behind Bristol in injury woes at the moment, aren't they? Closely followed by Northampton.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's really quite concerning for us on that on that front. Um, but Will Joseph gives me real, real hope for salvaging something out this season. Uh what doesn't is just the daft, daft shit we do. Like, I mean, our line out on our mall is I mean, barely pathetic at this point. It's you know, the one time we got the mall right, we managed to swing it all the way over the side and and Ollie Thorley scored in the corner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you go, right, well, if you can do it, we're we've got enough in this we've got enough in this team to be able to do, but I mean we knocked on two or three at the lineup, you know, similar to Newcastle in their game. You just go, well, it's unforgivable at this level to to make basic errors like that from good players, you know. It's the likes of Freddie Thomas, a Welsh international, yeah, and one of the best players in the league last season, making making that kind of mistake. You know, said Blake was superb for us last season, I hope like a proper breakout season.
SPEAKER_01I I think yeah, your set piece has kind of fallen apart a bit, hasn't it? Like because Jack and Art's been much the same.
SPEAKER_00Jack and R struggling. I mean, I don't know, I don't know what it is. You know, it's it's difficult to to pin these things down, you know. And I say that you know, we've said it's not easy to to to nail these things, but really it's something it will professional team to make that kind of level of basic mistake. I mean, Ross Byrne has what are your thoughts on him as a signing so far? See things on paper, it was a brilliant sign-in. You know, it at all the attributes you want you want Irish International was at one point the era parent of Johnny Sexton, and then just sort of got a sandwich between Sexton and Prendergast, and um what's his chops at Munster? Um Carbon. So it basically right player, wrong time, needed game time, but he's got all the attributes, you know. He's got you know, he's seemingly got all the game management, the kicking ability. There was no real um sign that he wasn't up to it physically at Leinster. I'm obviously just helped by the fact they had Leinster pack back. That does help. That definitely helps because at the moment he's a complete liability in defence, and he's making base for you and Richards for that the kick chase back, and he dives on it and somehow managed to throw it forward over his own head, having dived backwards for it. I'll watch it again. I don't know if I don't know the physics of this, I don't know the physics of how he's managed this. Yeah, and you know, you couple that with general an exit. I mean, fortunately, we've finally we've just hired got in a coach from Saracens to um to focus on the breakdown, uh, another former London Irish coach. Um, whose name's just escaped the top of my head, but our breakdown work is poor. Um I don't know, it's it's at the moment, right? Three three games in, it's looking pretty dire. And we've got Bristol this weekend. I mean, if you can't beat Bristol at the moment, you know, if you can't beat the walking debt, then you know it's you shouldn't be in the league. So hopefully we got our first win of the season this weekend, but at this point it's it's looking pretty dire. Um we're desperate in desperate need of some backup at loose head. Yeah. Um, we need to sort out the line out at this at the moment. It's just we're just teams are just picking us off. Um and we've got to get some go for it. I mean, we picked probably close to our biggest available pack on Saturday. So, you know, Cam Jordan Alamano in second row, but Freddie Thomas and Basham in the back row, and still were barely able to cling on physically. Um, and you know, admittedly, against that bath pack, it's it's tough, whatever you do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but no one, no one, no one's able to cling on to them at the moment.
SPEAKER_00But at the moment, it just it's sh it's after the what was such a positive season, and you know, I was really optimistic going into the season because I thought with the sign-ins we've made and the players we still have there, I thought we've got the squad to to really do something this season. Obviously, the injuries haven't helped that we've had to throw in way too many new sign-ins too early. Yeah, but it's difficult to justify some of the mistakes at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I think yeah, some of them are inexcusable, really. But if you're listening, you're probably thinking I'm about to say Bath uh won 90 points to nil. But it was only 38-17, Rory. You managed to score some points at the rec, scored a couple of nice tries, a few little glimmers of hope.
SPEAKER_00Uh there are teams there are glimmers there. There are glimmers there. Like there's there's a there are points. This in every game this season there's been points where I've thought we look like one of the best attacking teams in the league.
SPEAKER_01That second half against the game.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but we can only manage it for short periods. If we could put it in for even 60 minutes, we'd probably win games by 10-15 points.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I think we manage sort of five minutes. Another question for you, Rory, and I'm saying this slightly tongue-in-cheek. Thomas Williams. Are we seeing someone who had a long summer, had his injury, obviously, hasn't quite hit the the levels we saw last season yet? Are we seeing that connection with Ross Byrne just not being there yet? Because we're not seeing the best of him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think well, I think partly it's the connection with Ross Byrne, and I think it's partly because the pack's not getting go forward. I don't I actually don't think and you know, I could be accused of just being a bit one-eyed when it comes to Tomas because I'm you know, I absolutely adore him, but I actually don't think this falls on Tomos at the moment. I think it I think the problems are he's I think he's sandwiched between two big problems, which is a pack that isn't getting go forward and a 10 who is, if we're being generous, struggling to settle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they seem to be on very different wavelengths, put it that way. Uh, and that wavelength is also different when you get beyond 10 to 12, 13, 14, 11, or 15, which I think is part of the problem at the moment. But there's still time. Time is a healer, Rory. Have faith. As I said, that's so that game ended 38 17 to Bath. Yet another bonus point victory for Bath. Um let's just see how that train keeps on rolling, because I don't see it stopping anytime. Soon. Moving into the Sunday fixture. The battle for London. North versus South. Well, slightly north. Well, kind of outside of London versus South London.
Gloucester’s Set-Piece Woes and Hope
SPEAKER_00Hey, it's the battle between London's original club and London's original club.
SPEAKER_01Yes. It's the clash royale. It's the clash of the Giles. Uh Harlequins versus Saracens. At the stoop. Yeah. This was an interesting game, Rory, for many, many reasons. We both called this one very wrong. Now, my one question to you, Rori. Was this a perfectly executed game plan from Harlequins, or did they just get lucky with the low sun?
SPEAKER_00Uh I mean, it could be both. Um, I I genuinely think this was a masterclass in game management from Man Reborn. Well, you know, probably I think a bit a man on a bit of a mission to prove that he's still a fly half. Well, not what everyone keeps saying he is. Um, and you know, good because you know, obviously the gauntlet's been thrown down by obviously Finn Smith and more so by George Ford in terms of what they've done in England shirts this this calendar year. I think Marcus Smith has looked, he looked in the in this game particularly, he looked like he'd come back with a very specific point to prove, and he proved it time and time and time again. He barely put a foot wrong strategically on this one. And it was, you know, this was not a game for uh a team with the with the strapline of being the great entertainers.
SPEAKER_01No, it was definitely a different style from Harlequins that we're used to.
SPEAKER_00I they they completely switched it up and they just went full physical, backed up by Guido Petty in particular, who Very impressed. He hit the ground running. Uh Rodrigo Escro, uh dovetailing with Marcus Smith's kicking game. Perfect.
SPEAKER_01We said last week is their Argentinian quad gonna be a difference maker. I I think they were. Because I think the two the two props that came on really put a bit of pressure on at the scrum as well.
SPEAKER_00Delgado and I love Boris Wenger is my new favourite player, I think. Um yeah, he just uh couldn't look, yeah. He couldn't look more like a prop if he tried.
SPEAKER_01Um especially in that moment where he didn't score his try and his ass crack was hanging out and you could see his pants. That's so that's so prop like. It was beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, just just an absolute lack of uh shame and personal hygiene. No, I thought I thought Quinn's absolutely executed on a game plan with this. They were so physical in defence, uh, from from basically minute one. Um Marcus's try really well taken, but it all came off the back of just beating Saris physically. Yeah, yeah. Um Jack Kenningham looked really good carrying in this one. Yeah, I thought, you know, he's he's obviously dovetails with Will Evans as a poacher in this team a lot of time, but his ball carrying was really physical in this. Uh I loved Cunningham South versus Tom Willis. That is brilliant, wasn't it? That is a white-collar boxing match I'd pay to go and watch.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I think that was very it felt deliberate from Chandler Cunningham South. It's almost like they deliberately put him in the eight shirt this this week for that matchup. And I would argue, although Tom Willis actually still had some impressive stats coming out of this game, like visually and vibes based, I'd say Cunningham South probably got the upper hand in this game.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, I I would I would completely agree with that. I thought uh I you know, eyebrows were probably raised picking him at eight this week, you know. Obviously, Don Brent's the senior eight at the club. Um, but he looked like a player, another player with a point to prove, but he just looked like a player who was given the absolute freedom to go and impose his game, which is that physicality, both sides of the ball. But some of the hits he put in were monstrous. Um you could you could be forgiven for get forgetting in this game that Quinn's uh almost had another try, having turned the ball over at the scrum as he came out the tunnel, but Marcus nearly had two tries in this game. Yeah. Um it's it's actually quite weird to talk about Saracens as looking quite frail, but they they look properly rattled in this one.
SPEAKER_01They did. Um I I think they what Harlequin's done is that they identified that if you stop Saracens go forward, you kind of stop them at source, and they they lost all momentum. And I think we we know that Saracens run primarily off of Tom Willis breaking tackles and then creating chaos behind the gain line. You stop him from doing that, and Ben Earl wasn't able to do it, Onyama Christie wasn't able to do it, Theo Dan wasn't really able to do it a couple times early on in the first half, but not much after that. Perhaps that they suffered from losing Nick Tompkins to the HIA and having to stay off the pitch, but it's not Cynthia there, isn't it? They still got Cintia City for Argentina. He did. I think maybe the identification from Harlequins that they did have a relatively inexperienced pair of wingers. So Cinti probably it may have been different if Cynthia stayed on the wing, but Jackson Richards and Bracken probably not used to being peppered by the high ball. Malins did not have a good good game at the back under the high ball. Uh whether it was related to the sun, I don't know, but it can't have helped. But it just it just feels like Harlequins identified a weakness in Saracen's game plan that I I hadn't spotted. Obviously, they did.
SPEAKER_00No, but I mean it's one thing, it's one thing identifying that, it's another thing executing it and winning the game off the back of it against a team as ruthless as Saracen's.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
Quins 20–14 Saracens: Kicking Masterclass
SPEAKER_00I you know, we I'm as probably me in particular, but you know, we have criticized Quinn's a lot early part of the season and last season. Hats off to win this one because not the prettiest game and to watch in the world, but in terms of the bits of rugby I like around the physicality and the confrontation and just being gritty and digging in, absolute you know, hats off, superb performance from them.
SPEAKER_01So so Harlequins, you can still be labelled the great entertainers to us if you keep playing in that vein. So if you were a Harlequins fan, Rory, which I know is going to be really hard for you to imagine. Mindset. Oh bro, come on then. What's would you want them to continue playing this style of rugby? Because I think this would still be effective against other teams, or would you want them to revert back to what they were doing the other two weeks and last season?
SPEAKER_00I think you have to accept that there are games when you need to go into this mode and you need to have this as uh a weapon in your arsenal. You know, they will probably need to play that way against Bath or Sale. Um they'll I think they'll get less change out of the kicking game, so they'll probably need to find another way to get up the field. But the mindset of their defence will need to be the same.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, pin them back and don't let them through.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, you've this is one of the issues we didn't really touch on in the bath game. It's so difficult to find space in their backfield because their kicking game is so good as well, yeah, and they cover the backfield really well. You you could probably just about expose Thokin of Singer if no one's covering him. You might be able to expose Arundel, but if they've got Sante or Tom de Glanville or Finn Russell also covering in the backfield, it's just difficult to find the green space, is there? Yeah, that's why.
SPEAKER_01That's why it's so scary when Santi does become their starter. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes. But if you can, you know, you you you basically would have to be inch perfect with your kicking game against Bath, and you probably would have to be close because sales back three, Robart, Carpenter, and uh Woodburn if he's starting.
SPEAKER_01Um it's first names you usually get wrong, not last names.
SPEAKER_00I know, sorry, um they're all very good under the high ball um and very good at covering the backfield, so it's difficult, but the fact that they have this in they've proved they have this in their arsenal, they they've not got the excuse now of oh, we just couldn't get our running game going. Fine, get your king game going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what we did see, certainly in this game, was Marcus Smith being inch perfect with his kicking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's what that's what they'll need. It's just whether he can do that week in, week out.
SPEAKER_00Uh but but if he can, he suddenly becomes the man that everyone wants to see in that 10 shirt again for England, and that's what he's got to prove. Yeah. Because actually, if he can do the kicking game, even 95% as well as George Ford, suddenly you think, well, yeah, but Marcus has got the running game as well. If he can if he can be as solid enough indeed to 90-95% of Finn Smith, you're saying, Yeah, but Marcus Smith has got the running game. And actually, that's the thing. If Marcus Smith can prove those other components are not deficiencies, like he did in this performance. Well, suddenly the fact that he's got a running game like uh Carlos Spencer suddenly becomes like, oh, well, you have to pick him now because he's got he's got the whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think an inform Marcus Smith is almost undroppable, it's just getting him in form, which we which is what we did we were saying all last season. He just he didn't look the player we're used to seeing. If he's suddenly coming into form, different story.
SPEAKER_00He probably he probably has to say, Look, I'm not a fullback and I don't want to play fullback.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I do feel like he does need to come out and day something like that. Otherwise, he's just gonna keep getting this confusing messaging and getting moved out. I'm guessing it probably disrupts his flow, disrupts the momentum he builds. So let's see how the season goes. He's only just come back from the Lions tour. But that game itself, Rory, ended 2014 to Harlequins, the one not one we saw coming. Real spanner in the works to Saracens. Uh, really, really enjoyed the Harlequin's social media post afterwards. Uh stuff.
SPEAKER_00Really, really enjoying that kind of work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think other clubs start getting on this because it's really quite enjoyable to watch some real good and creative stuff from these social media teams. So come on, other clubs, get on board, start doing the same because it was a perfect opportunity for all the other clubs to do something similar. Sadly, it only seems to be going on in London. Um London, London town. But before we move on, Rory, well, not before we move on. We'll move on. Quick fire predictions for round four. We didn't do too badly last. I think I got three out of four, three out of five. You got four out of five, I think. Round four, quick fire predictions. Starting off Friday night, Gloucester versus Bristol at Kingsholm.
SPEAKER_00I've got to back us. I think Gloucester will win this, particularly if Genge is injured, if Tom Jordan's banned. You've got I've just got to think at this point we'll have to get the win. I'm gonna back us to win this by ten.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, I agree. I've I think Gloucester have to win this. If not, they are. I don't know what's I I don't know what's happened to the team I've done. I don't know where we go if we don't. I don't know. I don't know what's happened to the team I was watching last year. Uh I've never seen such a drop-off. If that is, if you aren't if you don't win that game, I don't it's monumental drop-off. So hopefully that doesn't happen. The other Friday night game, Newcastle Red Bulls versus Northampton Saints.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean I'd for not just because it's you're the Northampton Center, I'd love to be able to back Newcastle to to pull a result out on this one, but unless Northampton suddenly get blue throughout the camp and have to turn up with the under-18s, uh, I've got to think Northampton are gonna win this one by 15.
Marcus Smith’s Statement and CCS vs Willis
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've so Northampton haven't historically travelled that well to Kingston Park. We've had a fair few quite close games there, but I do think the I just think your pack's gonna think your pack will shred him. I think the pack will shred him, and I think our backs will probably be able to break quite a few holes. So I I I suspect at least a bonus point win. Uh 15 probably feels about right. Uh so yeah, in agreement there. Okay, Saturday, Leicester Tigers versus Bath rugby, the Matthew Lee Woods, Welford Road.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is actually a tougher one to call than you think because it's Tigers at home, it's Tigers other historic derby or historic rivalry. Um and Tigers have probably got a pack that can get close to, if not parity, with Bath, just on just on physicality. But on the other hand, I just can't see anyone beating Bath. So I think Bath by I think it'll be close. I could see I think this will be Bath by five or less.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I'm agreeing. I I think Bath by ten or less. I just I just uh the way they're just so inevitable at the moment, I can see them kind of getting two scores ahead and just maintaining that, like just keeping an eight-point lead. Uh so that's where I see that one going. I just yeah, I can't I just can't see Bath losing at the moment. Next game. Tasty game. Next game. Saracens versus Sale.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, another tough one to call, but I'm gonna say that Saracens bounce back on this one, and I think it'll be Saracens by five to ten points.
SPEAKER_01I I think you're right, I I think there will be a reaction. I one thing I've learnt about watching Saracens that when they lose a game, there's usually an immediate reaction uh from the team, and then their next game after a loss that they've especially against Harlequins, they've generally had an absolute stormer the week after. Sale, yeah. I'd although they do have George Ford, they do have this back three that are really exciting, and they do have a pack that's very exciting. I think Saracens have the players to match it. So yeah, I'm gonna back Saracens, but again, I think close. I think close, I think within within seven points difference. Yeah. And then extra Chiefs, Sandy Park hosting Harlequins with their new way of playing. Tricky one.
SPEAKER_00It's actually a tricky one, and bucking the trend a little here. I think this might be where Chiefs are gonna win. I think Chiefs might sneak this one by five and under.
SPEAKER_01Okay. In order for there to be a differentiation between our predictions, I'm gonna back Harlequins to kind of back up their prediction their performance of last week, Marcus Smith to continue this and to really show that he can pull the strings. Uh but I I agree, I think this is gonna be really close. I don't think there's gonna be much in it. I think this may be one that's within within three points, and I'm gonna back Harlequins to win this one, perhaps with a penalty taking the lead in the last five minutes or so. Yeah, but this this one's a real coin flip for me. Yeah, yeah, I I completely agree. Well, that's round four covered, Rory. Before we move on to your final thoughts, uh I posted something on our social media channels today about a team of the year so far. Did you have any thoughts or feelings about that? I think I had Obano, Jabulu, Fasogbon, Alex Coles, Joe Batley, Tom Pearson, Will Evans, Tom Willis, Ben Spencer, Tony Bellu, Hutchinson, Nick Topkins, Faye Roboso, Arendell, and Tyrone Green at fullback. Is there anyone I've got horrendously wrong before we bring this podcast to a close?
SPEAKER_00Nothing horrendous. I mean, I'd still think George Ford's been the form 10. Um yeah, for me, George Ford's been the best 10 in the league. But outside of that, probably wouldn't have too many quibbles. Um maybe Van Ray for sale. Interesting. But I think he's I he might have just edged it over Coles for me, but that would be probably nitpicking on my part. Van Rain ahead of Bamba. Yeah, I think so. I mean Bamba's been great, but I think what Van Rain's done, you know, given he's also the skipper now as well, um, I think he made he's made a real difference in that pack. But that's a bit of a coin float. I thought that I'd be nitpicking. Yeah, and that's not like you, Rory.
SPEAKER_01Why agonise over the details?
SPEAKER_00I'm famously magnanimous. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01But who knows? This time next week, it may be a whole different 15. We'll I'll keep revisiting it through the year. I won't do it every round because it'll get a bit boring if I did it every round. But we'll see, maybe in December, I'll see what the team of the year is looking like. But for now, Rory, it's time for your final thought. Do you have a final thought for the listener before we bring episode six of season two to a close?
SPEAKER_00Uh up the gloss, up the shed, the season starts from now. Everyone starts on one point. Everything else is one point.
SPEAKER_01I started the jingle too early, but I don't care. We've been Rux Bulls and Hobo Bulls. This has been episode six. Hope you've enjoyed listening to us this week. Like, subscribe, follow, just you know, generally enjoy listening to us. And uh we'll be back next week with some more rugby nonsense. Bye bye.
