S2 Ep 09 - USA Unready & England Unleashed

England put on a clinic. We break down how a sharp kicking plan, relentless two‑man tackles, and a late “Pom Squad” surge turned Australia’s momentum to dust, with Alex Mitchell’s box kicking and Tom Roebuck’s aerial work setting the tone. We get into the selection debates too: Tommy Freeman’s smart decision‑making at 13, a three‑way race at 10, and why Freddie Steward’s tough takes under targeted kicks deserved more credit than criticism.

Then we head to Chicago, where Ireland and New Zealand promised fireworks but delivered a stop‑start showcase marred by Tadhg Beirne’s early red card and endless delays. We talk undercooked stars, how central contract protection can overshoot, and why the All Blacks’ clearest path is to lean into power with Clarke, Fainga’anuku, and a bruising back row. There are bright spots for Ireland—Crowley’s control, Gibson‑Park’s tempo, Baird’s range—but rhythm takes minutes, not theory.

Zooming out, we challenge the idea of exporting Six Nations games to the USA. Chasing headlines won’t build roots. If rugby wants American growth, it needs coaching in schools, scholarships in second‑tier colleges, and a real bridge from campus to MLR. In the meantime, stronger bets lie in South America, Europe’s next tier, Africa, and Asia, where interest is already real. We also air frustrations with the Premiership Rugby Cup’s invisibility and salute the PWR’s fast start, with Gloucester‑Hartpury composed, Saracens ruthless, and Bristol blazing.

We wrap with fearless predictions for Ireland–Japan, Scotland–New Zealand, England–Fiji, Italy–Australia, France–South Africa, and Wales–Argentina, plus our plan to be at the England A vs New Zealand XV game in Bath. Enjoyed the show? Follow, share with a rugby friend, and leave a quick review—what would you change for England against Fiji?

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Transcript

Banter, Grassroots Wins, Silverware

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the fans favourite rugby podcast hosted by the fans favourite rugby podcast host. Yes, yes, me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Listeners. Hello, David. Thank you for that emphatic introduction.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Well, you know, if we can't be emphatic at episode nine of season two, when can we, Rory? That's what I ask. It's a very good point. Very good point, well made. How are you? How are things going in the life of Rory?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I'm well, thank you, David. I'm well. I uh I spent the weekend in Wales.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Lovely.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Yeah, meeting uh the girlfriend's family for the first time. Very nerve-wracking, but awful.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Exciting. Yeah. Are you are you still allowed back? That's the main question. No one said I can't yet. Yet. Yet seems an important word there in that statement.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yes. Yet is always a key point in that. There's there's always a chance that one day I won't be able to.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Now, Rory, were you deliberately on your best behaviour or were you 100% authentic yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

That's a very loaded question. Um, I would say I was probably more on my best behaviour than not. Uh but that's uh that's not to say I was entirely um as behaved as others might have been. I had a very nice time. I went and watched um the a bit of grassroots rugby. Lovely, good work. Yeah, a brother plays for a team called Newport High School Old Boys, NHS O B, who were playing against Blackwood, I think the team was. Okay. In Division One East in Wales, which is the third division of grassroots in Wales.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Okay, so basically what you're saying is you're now trying to figure out what the grassroots system looks like in Wales now because you, you know, have to be interested in your girlfriend's family's rugby life now, and you're doing a very, very cynical outlook, actually, David.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Oh, so you're suggesting you knew wherever it may be. It just so happens that this one was in Wales and tangentially connected.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So actually, you were previously aware of the divisional structure in Wales, Welsh grassroots rugby, and were fondly familiar with the rivalry between the HSOB versus BlackRock, whatever it was. You were familiar with that already? Yes, very much so. Very much so. Okay, I can only take your word for it. I can only take your word for it.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

The reason I the reason I bring it up, David, partly because uh we haven't done much grassroots gang in the last few weeks. No, we haven't, we haven't. It's very, very true, Rory. And uh I I thought it was worth highlighting. I also wanted to say how impressed I was with the skill level um at that level of grassroots in Wales.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

I thought I was I because obviously, you know, small population base, so you you never know how deep the the talent will will go, and I was uh I was really impressed with a lot of the the gameplay at that level. So uh a bit of a shout- I'm a bit of an agonizing loss for their NHSOB. Um bit of a poor second half from from their point of view, but uh a thoroughly enjoyable game despite some very classically Welsh weather.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Well, you know, uh you have to take the rough with the smooth. Uh and you know, green shoots and all that. We've we've often spoke about Welsh rugby in the past and perhaps has struggles with the player pool and the playing numbers, but you're actually providing a slightly rosier gleaming report from the pitch sides, grassroots in Wales, boots on the ground, Rory. Very, very proud of your commitment to the grassroots gang, which yes, we have been well, I have been particularly rubbish at maintaining, but there's been so much rugby on Rory. Uh it's it's hard to cover every case we can.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

There's been a lot going on. There's been a lot going on. But fear not listeners, we still love the grassroots.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Now I know you didn't ask, but we've got some silverware. That clanging.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Have we finally won those awards? I thought the podcast was due.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

No, no, no. This is this is this is the part of the banter section that we always tend to forget about, is where we where you ask about my life.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Oh, yeah, you've got stuff going on, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, sure, sure. Saladson's the mighty green team, North Bristol Man V Fett, pitch winners, scale winners, combined league winners, silverware to represent a clean sweep at uh awards night that took place last night at North Bristol RFC. And boy, the rest of the club, they were mad at the Greens for just taking everything. You could hear the cynicism across the room. Oh, it's the greens again. Oh, I bet the greens have won it again.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Grumpy because uh the food was low calorie and there was no booze. Uh no comment. Uh but all I that's the problem with joining something like Man V Fat is you can't rely on the catering.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

You can't rely on the catering. Well, no, there is no catering provided. But uh it's a bit awkward that. But you know, uh, it's just you know, so but I've I've also made the difficult decision to step down as captain of the green team to uh to allow others to step up and take on that leadership role. Um just because I've so you can so you can focus more time on your waistband? Well, that partly, and you know, you know, I've got as as announced previously, I think I think I sort of said it on the podcast, I've got a little one on the way.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Uh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you did mention that. I don't ask you enough about yourself, that's that as we've established.

Plan For The Show And Key Topics

Six Nations In The USA Debate

SPEAKER_00 5:40

As we've established, yeah. Uh and I'm just thinking going forward, will I be able to commit to every single evening? I'm not a hundred percent certain, so it's best it's better that I pass the reins over to someone who may be slightly more committed than I may be in the upcoming seasons. I'll still try and go, but I can't guarantee a hundred percent attendance. Uh but you know all being well, the Saladsons will continue to reign supreme with me just being a willing team member rather than their illustrious leader. But that is what a what an extended banter section from us, Rory. Oh, there's so much going on in our lives. It's I don't know how people will keep up with this. But let's move on to rugby, uh, because that's what we're here to talk about. Uh we're gonna go and cover a couple of talking points that have come up through the week. We're obviously gonna talk Autumn Internationals, and we'll touch on some of the other things that have been going on, Prem Rugby Cup, and of course the PWR, and we'll finish off with our weekend predictions. And if we've got time, um anything else we think of as we canter through the podcast AOB. Let's see what let's see what happens. Uh let's start off with a couple of the talking points that have come up over the week. Uh, one of the bigger ones that I've seen, certainly in the last couple of days, is uh talk of world rugby and the chiefs involved in the game moving games such as a Six Nations fixture to be played in the USA. And I've I've seen quite an outpouring of opinion on this, Rory. So, first of all, please give me your reaction to that news when you see it. My unbridled reaction? I only ever ask for unbridled reactions, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Okay, it's bollocks and it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Well, well, I I agree. I I I I think what a stupid idea. I I can see it happening though. Uh not that I want it to, I can see something stupid like that happening.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I could potentially see potentially see an Irish home game going into the US. That that's I I can envision that. I don't like it particularly, but I could envision that happening. I don't see any of the other nature. Maybe Italy, but of the Italians in the US, how many are abid rugby fans? You know, who's who's to say? Um I don't I don't see it. I mean the RFU are gonna go for it because they make all their money off Twickenham. Yeah. Uh the French won't go for it because um they don't need to. They don't need to, and to to be honest, uh French bloody mindedness will uh will win the day on that one.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

I don't see any value in Wales or Scotland doing it because I don't think there's a big enough diaspora in the US for them to get a get a crowd.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

So the only fixture that would work would be Ireland versus England, with it being the Ireland game, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Um I mean, potentially Ireland Italy. Potentially you could you could create enough of a buzz if you went to New York or Chicago or maybe Boston, you know, one of those sort of classically Irish US cities, you could potentially create enough fervour to to get something out of it. But I mean we'll touch on we'll touch on the game at the weekend, but I'm not exactly certain that rugby's um done much to sell itself to the US. And uh well, we'll touch on both games. I'm not exactly sure the US seem all that fussed by it based on their performances on the field. So um to be honest, the problem with it is everyone wants to crack America because obviously there's so much money there, and I get that, but it it just doesn't seem to me like a viable option. I just I don't see the viability of it in terms of making money. I and in fact, I don't even think there's enough of a genuine opportunity there for rugby to keep persisting with trying to crack America. I think you've got better opportunity with trying to consolidate South America and Europe and Africa and even potentially Asia, because there are there is genuine rugby interest in the likes of South Korea, yeah, Japan and Japan and Hong Kong, but both in being the World Cup. Um I recently saw a clip of the Kazakhstan national team and they got a rug winger who is an absolute unit. Um so I'd like to see some Kazakhstani rugby. Um, you know, obviously Georgia in well, it's it's Europe, but it's moving into into Asia in Euros or the Caucuses, whatever whatever you refer to it as. So there's there's opportunities in different areas. Why not focus on the areas that have shown a genuine interest in the game rather than trying desperately to crack this nut that is that won't crack completely disinterested?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, it it does feel like it's just a another desperate attempt to fry and enter a market that is so competitive. Uh the only thing I can compare it to is if you and I were to decide to go into making mobile phones and thinking that we'll be able to compete with Apple and Samsung, just me and you, Rory, by ourselves. It it wouldn't happen. Uh it's too competitive. The the competition out in America is so vast. We lack competency or knowledge. And we lack competencieslash and or knowledge. Um precisely that. Uh I don't know if what you're hinting there at the American rugby audience. I'm sure there's some knowledgeable American rugby people out there, but uh maybe they are swamped by there there will be.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Look, I don't look, I don't want I'm not saying that we should just cut all um rugby in the US and just cut it, cut it completely adrift. But you have to find a way to build it from the ground up. And I just don't think exhibition six nations matches when the power of the Six Nations is in the tradition and the and the um the fierceness of the competition in the countries it's held. It's not, you know. I mean, even the Southern Hemisphere don't particularly get up and watch the Six Nations. No, it's a very very Europe-centric competition. So what why would anyone think that the Americans are gonna care about you know the cow cutting cut?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, they won't, they won't care at all. They really won't. Um you just you just wonder what other bright ideas will be sprung to try and bring a bit of buzz to this America World Cup. That I really am, even though it's six years out, six years out, I I have like concerns about how that World Cup may not necessarily have a lasting legacy. That may be the hope that they gave it to them.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

We're both old enough to remember the reticence about the Japanese World Cup, and that would turn out to be brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

True, very true.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

That wasn't true. So let's not say that it can't be good, it could well be brilliant. I just don't think this is the way to build it.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

No, very true. Let's just keep a watchful eye on this space. Um elsewhere, obviously, uh personally exciting for us. We are off to watch the England A play against New Zealand 15 this weekend. That means there was an England A squad announced, and I was mostly pleased with what I saw. It's a very good blend of kind of under 20 graduates, premiership kind of form players, a couple of experienced heads. Uh, I've seen some reports that you know, some the obviously this isn't an official test, so the clubs don't have to release all the players they want to, which may explain why some clubs have different representation levels than maybe you're anticipating. Um but in general, Rory, I was happy with the squad I saw, and I am very much excited to go watch these guys go and strut their stuff at the wreck.

England A Squad And The Bath Trip

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yes, absolutely. We'll both be there, won't we? So we're very much looking forward to that. Um, no, so this is this isn't a capped game, although interestingly, apparently the England-Spain, England A-Spain match is a is a capture game. I so I don't think it's a cap, but if you represent England or Spain in that, then you are captured by that nation, which for someone to say Tyrone Green Polo, Tyrone Green, well, Kepu Tupelotto, Tyrone Green, maybe others might be in line particularly for that one, um, if they're not all ready for this weekend. Um, no, I'm really looking forward to it. Look, I I I like that these games are back. I think giving opportunities to the players who are uh striving to make that final jump and dislodge some of the more um established names in the England in the senior England squad is really exciting. I think it's really exciting to see some of the younger players who are maybe just starting to ply their trade get a get a shot in that kind of environment. Um I'm not sure who's I'm not sure who's coaching. It's not Maple Toft again, is it? Yeah, it is. It's still Maple Toft. So um I think I think it'll be just really good fun. I just you know, I I I honestly think that um you know the the thing with these these types of games is both sets of players have such limited time together, so there's no you're not establishing massive structures. What you're saying to them is you know, this is the basics, go out and express yourselves. And when players of this calibre do that, you're just in line for a good time as a as a viewer. So I think we'll have uh we'll have a very enjoyable weekend um watching rugby in Bath, which is uh you know one of the great rugby watching cities. It is we'll go then go and watch one of the uh watch the England Fiji game in the in one of the pubs nearby, I imagine.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Um if we're still standing, we'll probably try and watch the South Africa um France, South Africa France game as in the later in the evening.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

We'll certainly try, but we may be um we may be cross-eyed by that point.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Yeah, yeah, there's every chance to say if you happen to be in Bath and you happen to be going to the England A game and you spot us, and I'll be honest, we're probably easily to easy to spot because we're both quite tall gentlemen. Come and say hello, we don't mind. And wide. And wide, yes. Uh and also if you are a patron to any good rugby watching pub in Bath, we will take recommendations if you have any. We'll happily come and watch rugby in your establishment. Moving on, Rory, to the Autumn Internationals that took place this weekend. Really wetting the appetite, because these are technically not covered by the test window, so there's only four games at play. Uh let's just start off nice and simple and easy. Probably the game of the weekend: England versus Australia. Uh, over at the Allianz Stadium, aka Twickenham. Please provide your input of your observations of that game, Rory, if you wish.

England vs Australia: First Impressions

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, uh, I was happily impressed actually by this English performance. When you look at it in the context of Australia have had a Lions series and a rugby championship and an A game against Japan leading up into this, and England have had uh a three-day training camp and a week in full training prior to this. Um, you could have forgiven England for being really undercooked. And look, it wasn't a perfect performance, and there's there's bits and pieces that they want to improve on, but you can't deny that England dominated that match pretty much from start to finish. Um, they were good for a much wider margin of victory, I think. Yeah, they actually had a few more passes stuck, and it kicks gone to the right places. So, um, and you know, this is an Australia team that we've been waxing lyrical about for some months about their resurgence, coached by Joe Smith, obviously missing a few big names, Lenner Cattle, Will Skelton, Tom Hooper, for example. Um, but every team goes into every tournament missing big names, that's just the reality of rugby. Yeah, I was really, really impressed. Um, you know, not perfect performances across the board from from everyone, and we'll we'll get into some of the nitty-gritty of it. Um, but by and large, everyone impressed to one extent or another in that match, as far as I'm concerned. Um, so I've got no real question with the performance. I know there's been um some interest in takes from I would say more more so from from general punters online rather than the experts about the way England played, the way certain ringing players played. Um but actually given the time they had together and and also taking into account the team selected and what's brought England's success through most of this year, I thought they executed that game plan. I thought they executed that game plan pretty much up to its T.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Um, I agree. Defensively, superb. Yes, absolutely, like bar one intercept, that would have been a shutout.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, yeah, and we could talk about that in a bit more detail, but you know, I thought the emphasis on two-man hits, yeah, I think I don't think it's very few Australia players got away with carrying the ball into single uh single defender traffic that everyone got doubled up on. Yeah, and you know that does two things. It means you're more likely to win the collision, massive, massive point in international rugby.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

It also gives uh if you if you win the collision, it gives you more opportunity to to steal the ball. And when you've got a team like that with the likes of Earl, Underhill, Pepper, um Pollock coming on, Curry coming on, Maro Toge, Luke Khan, Dickey to come on, you know, all excellent fetchers of the ball. It just gives you so many opportunities to spoil attacks, which they did either by stealing it or just by slowing the ball down and slowing Australia down to a standstill at points, yeah, not letting them get that kind of momentum. I thought it was a defensive masterclass. Um, so as a general overview, I thought in attack, you know, all right, clunky at times, and the the not not all of it came off, but actually when when you accept that kicking is a part of every team's strategy, and it is a real part of this England team strategy, they executed that exceptionally well. Tom Roebuck in particular, yeah, phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Um and a pressure defence is part of their strategy, they executed that absolutely to a T. I don't think anyone can have any qualms about that performance. I think it was superb.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, I think I think one thing on that, um we often talk about uh in the scrum half debate uh how good Ben Spencer is at the box kicking and game management. I think what we saw there from Alex Mitchell was the side of his game that very rarely gets spoken about with him because everyone just talks about this running nine, very quick tempo. His box kicking yes, there was one or two that were probably a bit too long, but his box kicking for those tries was absolutely a pinpoint, uh, and he executed that game plan perfectly, backed up brilliantly by Tom Roebuck, as you say. Um probably exactly what they've been practicing all week, and it worked. And that's that's all you can ask for from an England team that's only together for a week to go and put that all put that together on the pitch against a very good Australia side. That's all you can ask for.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, on Alex Mitchell, I think the fact that he can do both, you know, get you a man that can do both at nine, he can he can run, he can, he can build tempo, he knows when to switch the tempo on. But the fact that he can also unleash pinpoint box kicks that the likes of Tom Roebuck and or Tommy Freeman or uh Fewa Boso even can can go and chase, you've you've got it in that an absolute linchpin of an attacking game plan. Um, and factor in that you've got someone who can kick as well as George Ford or even Finn Smith when he came on, and even Marcus Smith in in in the uh wings as well. People will have to accept that kicking is fully part of this game plan and will continue to be. And actually that's to be sort of not just accepted but sort of encouraged and celebrated because watch any yeah, watch watch any team um at the top, you know, South Africa kick, New Zealand kick, France kick, Ireland kick, all the top teams kick a huge amount. But actually, if you can execute your kicks well more often than not, and retrieve the ball to create those transitional moments and as much as broken the play, you are fully in line to be a dangerous team.

Kicking, Defence, And Roebuck’s Aerial Edge

SPEAKER_00 21:46

No, I completely agree. Maintaining that slightly saintly theme, because we spoke about Alex Mitchell there. Uh a lot of the talk I've seen post the game was around Tommy Freeman in the 13 shirt. Uh, and it's interesting because there does seem to be a split a splitting of the fan base, some saying he's done a really good job. Like I've seen him in quite a few teams of the week from some of like the online kind of channels and the things that you see on Instagram and TikTok and all that sort of stuff. And then you've got some pockets of fans saying that didn't really work, failed to pass the ball out to Maddie Ferro Boso, which you know, yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Um where do you where do you think well look I'm gonna address that pass to Fairworth because yeah, look, you can make the argument they couldn't give that pass to Ferro Bosa can go. Fairwosa's not markedly faster than Tommy Smith, so let's not say that they would have he'd have made much more progress up the field than Tommy Smith did. Uh Tommy Freeman did, sorry. I actually think not passing was the right call there because they were actually isolated the two of them against I think three Australian attackers. And if he'd if he passed the ball to Fewa Boso, Faboso was down two on one against two Australian attackers who, if they tackled him, would have had a jump on hitting the ruck and potentially stealing the ball because Tony Free would have had to have gone around, gone the securitist route to it. Whereas by taking the ball in himself, Fayo Bosa had a straight run at the ruck to secure it and they recycled that ball. Yeah, he's the support player ready and in the right position to support and secure ball. Yeah, I I agree. If it was a genuine 2-1 and it was green open pastures for Fayobosa to run into, then yeah, it would have been the wrong call. But he was marked. Like the space that he was running into was marked. So the chances are he's getting tackled or at least slowed down. So actually having him there to recycle the ball was the better call. Yeah, um, so I I don't think that's the wrong decision from Tommy Freeman.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I agree, and it's just interesting because for some reason my uh my Facebook was just absolutely drip feeding me posts from the Extra Chiefs supporters fan group on Facebook. And uh the um the amount of comments I saw saying how selfish Tommy Freeman was and how he shouldn't be on. I was like, geez, like mental. It's bizarre. It's amazing how certain fan groups are so obsessed with their own players that they don't they don't see the bigger picture perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

They're not seeing the whiff of the trees, though. They're not seeing the whiff of the trees because the the actual the wider picture is in defence he was brilliant. Um, in not just in terms of his actual tackles, which were all very good, his work rate to get into the right channels at the right time to provide um the the cover defence in those wide channels where Australia is super dangerous. You know, there have been some really good clips of of his work rate to cover the likes of George Ford when he's been caught on the edge.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Um his speed to get into those position identifier, really important. You've also got to remember he's up against Suale Lee. That was gonna be my point. Yeah, um I'll not be funny, you know, since he's come into rugby union. I mean, last year, Sualee pretty much single-handedly turned that game for Australia against us um with his his aerial prowess, and he got no change out of Freeman on this one. Um he you know, he was actually somewhat absent, and actually, you know, between Freeman and Roebuck, Roebuck uh for the Ben Earl try.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Roebuck wins that ball against Zualee.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Um, so you I I think in the context of all that, I would say, all in all, a really good performance from Tommy Freeman, particularly given it's his what second start at 13 for England.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it it will it won't be any more, it won't be double-digit starts in that shirt, including Saints, I don't think. So he hasn't done it that many times. So fair play.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

So I'm I'm I'm more than happy, and I think you know, look, the fact that you've got the option between him and Ollie Lawrence and Henry Slade as well as having a great season for Exeter, that is good competition in that shirt. If the 13 shirt now has genuine competition and genuine high-level operators in it, that is only a good thing for England. It's and it's one of the shirts that wasn't it's what one of the shirts that wasn't certain for that. Yeah, and there's only a few of those left actually in this England side. But the 13 shirt looks like it's got genuine high-level competition there. Um, so no, Tommy Freeman for me gets two thumbs up for that performance.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Two thumbs up from Rux Moules Overballs, Tommy Freeman at 13. Good stuff. We're we're happy. Uh, I suppose another point that's worth probably drawing out, uh, and another example of Borthwick trying new things, which you know we are applauding here. The almost England bomb squad, uh, the impact of that bench coming coming on the pitch at the same time. I loved it. What did you make of it?

Freeman At 13 And Selection Battles

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Bomb squad. Um, yeah, I thought it was really well uh engineered from Borthwick. Um because what he's he's done two things there. He's given enough players who performed it over the summer the opportunity to hold on to that shirt. So the likes of Baxter and Hayes, yeah uh and Underhill Pepper who stayed off the full 80, whilst integrating the Lions players back into the squad and giving them a significant opportunity to impact the game. And he's identified that you know one of England's weaknesses last well, their their only real weakness last autumn was losing power and control in the last 20 minutes. Well, you bring Genj, Cowandickey, Stuart, Curry, Pollock on, you're not losing power, no, um, as they all they all proved. So he's solved for both of those things. And some of those persons, you know, particularly someone like Ellis Genge will always come on with a point to prove when they're not starting. Cowandicke, I think, is probably a similar kind of mindset. And then someone like Henry Pollock always comes on with an op energy and you know, looking for an opportunity to introduce a bit of Rasmataz, which again he did.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Um, I thought it worked really well, and actually, selection-wise, I thought pretty much one to fifteen he got it pretty much bang on. I know that there's been quite a bit of discourse about Freddie Stewart, who I know initially sort of struggled a bit under the high wall, but actually he didn't gather all of those kicks. Some of them he managed to tip backwards though, so they weren't lost. And I actually thought all around, particularly in the second half, I thought he had a really good performance.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah, I I'm I'm not I'm not accepting the Freddie Stewart criticism. I I think it's more reflective of this modern kicking game we got now where Australia definitely kicked very deliberately to him in a way where he couldn't get his running run up to gather the ball. Like the kicks weren't long, they were deliberately quite short, meaning that their chasers had the run-up. We saw with Roebuck being dominant in the air with Suilehi, which doesn't happen. But if you get the the receiving catcher stationary on the back foot, they are nine times out of ten going to lose their aerial battle, which is what we saw with Stewart. That's not his fault, that's a tactic deployed by Australia effectively in the aerial kick chase. That's what we saw. I think his all-round game, his defence was really solid, and I've been quite critical of Freddie Stewart over the last couple of years about his tackle statistics and things like that. When called upon, he done everything we needed of him. Um I'd say to anyone who is criticising him, you try and catch a high ball when you've got a bunch of Australians running at you with a running start jump to and I bet you you won't gather most of those balls either.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

And what one thing say, the the Pollock try, which obviously is getting all of the um the plot. It's a lovely pickup. It's a lovely pickup, and that comes obviously from Roebuck tapping it back. But the phase before it comes back from Stewart claiming a really good high ball in the backfield, which which Mitchell then box kicks from.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

And it was a really good claim under real pressure. I think against might have been Potter, could have been Sulee.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

I think it was Potter. I think it was Potter.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, but it's a really good take under real pressure, and from that we then get the opportunity to go up the pinch and score. Look, the the position at 15 is really difficult at the moment, the laws as they are. Really? Which is why England are picking the likes of Roebuck because that position is under serious scrutiny a lot in games at the moment with the high balls.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

It's it's almost the modern day equivalent of a goalkeeper in football, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, yeah. And that you know, no one ever talks about your goalkeeper until they they you know let in a howler. You know, it's I I think that I would stick more or less with the same back line this week. Might be tempted to swap in Finn Smith for Ford, possibly, but I I'm not too worried either way on that. Again, I'm I'm I'm now at the point with the 10 shirt. They pick any of those three, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

What did you what did you make of George Ford's performance on the weekend? I know I I know you were getting a couple of bit of pelters on the on the old uh on the old Instagram and things like that, but you were that's not unusual, but you know, um you held your own rule, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I thought look, the place kicking was poor. That's fair enough, you know. He obviously missed three out of four conversions. Well, Finn Smith missed his only kick as well, so yeah. So, you know, it's it's that's not brilliant, fair enough. But uh I thought all things considered he knitted the game together reasonably well. We played quite a lot of nine, but um I thought it was a just a pretty good George Ford performance. Didn't set the world light this week, made his tackles, he made some good tackles actually. Defensively, nearly so I wanted to make this point. Nearly dragged Tupac out.

The Pom Squad Bench Impact

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yeah, I I see that. I nearly dumped Tupac off the pitch. He made a good effort at it. But I thought considering they were doing an absolute beeline of Hunter Paisami right at him at basically every single set set piece, he held his own. Like, yes, he doesn't dominate tackle. Yes, he most turns don't. No, well that those plays are designed because you get your crash ball 12 to get over the game line. Um, it happens to everyone. And I thought he they've always talked about George Ford defensively not being that strong, but I've always thought the other side because his tackle success rate is actually really high because he yeah he generally completes tackles, it's just that because he's a generally smaller rugby player, he doesn't dominate the collision, he still completes the tackle, which I agree, I completely agree. First line of defence, that's all you need because you've got your underheals, you've got your guy peppers who are gonna be coming around helping finish that off, and generally, because they've made a bit of ground, sometimes you can actually get a chance to turn the ball over as well, because sometimes you can overcommit and your supporting players aren't where you think you're gonna be because they've won a bit more ground potentially. But I just I I'm never I've never been one to buy into this theory that George Ford defensively is a liability because I don't think he is.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

I don't think he is. I think I'd I think it would I think it's misreading it entirely. Yeah, I think you you have to you accept that he's not massive and you accept that he can't make massive dominant tackles most of the time. But what but as long as he at the very least slows up the player who runs into him, and you've got players if you've got a back row like like what they picked at the weekend, yeah, that's actually all you need. Yeah, yeah. Um so no, I I thought it was fine. I mean, look, it's it's uh six and half, seven out of ten George Ford performance, but you know which is a rare thing, it's a rare it's a rarity, um, but actually, you know, all things being equal, I thought it was absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

I've got no issues with it whatsoever. And he was 10 and a very good England performance, so he can't have been that bad. Um exactly. From a from an Australian perspective, would you take anything from that game? Um, obviously missing a few key players, which will obviously be what a lot of Australian fans will be pointing towards. But is is there anything that they could take from that at all?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

I think uh I mean perform performance-wise, there are some big there are some big positives. Uh, uh Fraser McWright was brilliant, absolute terror at the breakdown. Um Harry Harry Wilson um at eight, I think, is brilliant every week. Lovely left foot kick down the touchline. Um Potter was brilliant. Yeah, yeah. Magical. Magical. Um yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

I think I apologise. My doorbell has gone again. I don't know why this happens every week. My medals got tangled up.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Sorry, Dave is just tangled up in his own medals. Unbelievable. Oh, he's he's got a massive box of pastas just arrived by the looks of it. Dog food. Ah, it's not fresh pasta this week. Not fresh pasta this week. I I was speculating that it might be. Um Positives for Australia. So uh, yeah, I thought, yeah, McWright, Wilson, Potter were real were real standouts.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Um add in Jeremy Williams.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yeah, Jeremy Williams, yeah, that's that's a very good point. He had a good game. Um, although I do wonder whether they need to think about starting someone like Salakar Lotto if they're gonna be able to do that. Oh, for sure, for sure. Um because they they just what they lacked was real punch, they couldn't they just couldn't break down the English defence, which was very good, but you know, you have to find a way to surmount it. Um, and actually, I think one of the real weaknesses they've got at the moment is they just don't seem to be able to bring Sualei into the game enough. Um, they they need to tweak whatever they're doing because they got you know, Hunter Paysami and obviously Lenekatao when he comes back in are both really powerful runners, but Sualey is different, gravy, and you need to find a way to you know, ideally, you want to get him in open pastures or on a soft shoulder, yeah, but at the very least, you need to use him as a strike runner to get you over the game line. Yeah. Um yeah, I look, I I think generally speaking, it was a fairly disappointing Australian performance, actually. Um but that that was caused by England having a game plan that absolutely matched up to that. Um you have you have to say that England England's tactics to nullify Australia were bang on because they just knew how to stop the momentum.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I I think we we built it up last week as being like a really attacking game, but we thought it was gonna be quite a close, high-scoring one. Didn't turn out that way, and I think that was because England's defence just absolutely blunted the Australian attack. I think I think that's what it was, and the England's England's game plan was spot on. I'd say much more, much more than that.

Ford, Stewart, And The 10 Shirt Debate

SPEAKER_01 35:59

I think to some extent we're just gonna have to trust that the that Borthwick knows what he's doing when it comes to tactics. And I'm now I'm now a hybrid player convert. I want to see more of it.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Well, I've seen pictures of Henry Pollock doing some kicking this week, so maybe he's maybe he's got adding fly half. He's got a chip and chase, I've seen a chip and chase. Yeah, and it's worked very well, very well for him. So who knows what will happen. Um any change you've alluded to already that you wouldn't change the back three, but going into the game against Fiji, would you would you chop and change anything at all, or would you stick with the same?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I'm I'll tell you what, I'd said Finn Smith it. I actually I think I'd bring in Marcus this week.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Um to start because I think actually I think he's quite hard done by. Although it's it does sound like Freddie Stewart's gonna miss, so there may be some rejigging at the back, and Marcus is probably the only one who the only root fullback they have other than Tommy Freeman. And I think they're gonna want to keep Tommy Freeman at 13 to give him some opportunity there.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yeah, so to be fair, Marcus is the only one with 15 experience in that squad other than Stewart.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Which is which is a shame for him, really, um, because he's being shunted back out there to to make do. Um I wouldn't make huge changes otherwise. You could maybe fold in some different forwards to start if you think they can get a maybe you could maybe argue starting Pollock and seeing how he goes from from the off.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

He's yet to start a game for England.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah, so that's that's that's potentially an option. You might want to have someone like Rafi Quirk on the bench to come on to offer injection of pace and take advantage of where there'll likely be some more space against Fiji. Would you stick with the bomb squad? Yeah, by and large, I probably would actually. Um I would stick with it for this week, and then I'd probably be thinking of switching it back to starting your strongest team against New Zealand. But probably this week I would probably stick with the with the Pom Squad. Wait, did you say Pom Squad? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I like it, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Oh yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. Okay, yeah, interesting. Well, obviously, we will wait with baited breath for what that Fiji England game pod looks like. But yeah, um knowing our luck, Rory, the team will probably get announced like a minute before we release the podcast. But you know, we can always look forward to what that may look like. Uh and maybe there will be chops and changes, maybe they won't. We'll soon find out. Um okay, the next game we're gonna talk about was Ireland versus New Zealand in Chicago at Soldier Field. Uh what did you make of this game, Rory? Obviously, there's one big talking point, but let's let's let's dodge that one talking point and talk about the game generally to start off with.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yeah, on the whole, I was a little disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Scrappy.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Well, certainly for the first hour, um both teams were pretty scrappy, and then New Zealand looked very good in the last 20 minutes or so. Very New Zealand. Um, yeah, but Ireland I thought looked pretty undercooked. Um, and we should probably talk about as to why that is, because I've got some theories. Yeah, but New Zealand I thought looked pretty raggedy themselves, a lot of it, you know, some uncharacteristically poor handling from them. Yeah, um, quite flappable under pressure, some poor kicking under pressure from the likes of Roygaard and Barrett. Um, when you know Ireland's kicking game was I thought was actually quite good, and New Zealand didn't really seem to be able to cope with it a lot of the time. Um, but yeah, it was it was quite flat as a game, I thought, not helped by uh a referee who decided that this was his week. Um Pierre Brousset. Pierre Brouset. I don't like to pile in on refs, but obviously not helped by there not being a big screen and TMO issues, but the referee, the TMO between them did everything they could to make this as it was was it Ian Tempest who's the TMO as well?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

No, it was Rose, wasn't it? Rose I don't think whoever it was, whoever it was, they like to get involved, they like to get involved, whoever it was.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Too involved. He was he's too quick on the whistle, you know. Some of the look, some of the not straights he called in the line out were pretty marginal, and you know, Chicago is literally known as the Windy City. It's like give the lads a break, let the game flow a little bit. Um, you know, it just it's not all down to the ref. Both teams contributed to to this, and this fell pretty flat as a contest, I thought, you know, as an opportunity to sell rugby to the Americans. This did not fulfil the brief. Um, no, I I was I was a bit downheartened watching this one actually.

Australia’s Bright Spots And Issues

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Downheartened, well, well to be fair, I I understand because I I I was looking forward to watching this game because I thought this is a clash of two really good teams, this is gonna be a real nail biter, and it just it flattered to deceive. It wasn't fixture, it was very flat, it wasn't exciting, there wasn't a lot of great rugby on display. Uh a lot of the star names had six or seven out of ten performances, I'd say, if that. Um a couple of nice moments, but as you say, that's mainly in the last 20 minutes or so. Uh, and if anything, the game, as I alluded to, there's there's one big talking point that the game's gonna be remembered for, and that is the the tag burn red card.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Well, was it though? Um no, well it's not a red card, is it? Let's just get it out of the way. Um it's a crap decision, it's an utterly crap decision that anyone who's played the game at any level knows is a crap decision.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Um if that's no if that's the precedent set, what's to stop all these players in the next round of fixtures just to run into players' shoulders and put their heads headbutt people's shoulders saying, Oh no, they they weren't in a position to it could have been lower, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:44

It's look you can maybe argue it's a penalty. You can no, it is a penalty, fair enough. It is a penalty. You can maybe argue it's a yellow card at worst. It's no in no way, shape, or form a red card, and this is where you've made this point a few times. The bunk assist in the 20-minute red card, the abdication of responsibility causes the problem because they've just defaulted to that now because they think, well, it's not so serious a sanction, so we can we can just give that and then we've covered our asses, yeah, because then no one can say that we didn't give a red card when there was a legitimately bad shot. Um, it's just poor, it's a poor referendum decision that you know you can argue what impact it had on the game because obviously Ireland were still winning by the time they were up to 15, but you still had to play 20 minutes against New Zealand with 14 men.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

That that shift all I'll say is this this is probably the only example of where the 20-minute red card is a good thing because that game wasn't ruined by having Ireland down to 14 players for 76 minutes, it was only for 60 minutes. No, 20 minutes. That's the only benefit of the 20-minute red card I've seen at the moment is that games aren't being ruined by these early incorrect red card calls. Sure, but but Tag Burns day's been ruined. Yes, Tag Burns Day has been ruined, uh, although you know, at least he's got got the showers early.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Well, I mean, if he's only been out there for three minutes, does he need a shower at that point? Yeah, um, he's probably still fresh. Yeah, um, you know, Ireland have been robbed of one of the premier forwards in Northern Hemisphere rugby, you know, and they've got they're great forwards on the bench. I'm not saying you know, not saying that someone like Ian Henderson's not a perfectly brilliant replacement for Tag Burn, but he's not Tag Burn. Um and they've had to play with 14 men for 20 minutes against the New Zealand. You know, that that that will have an impact on how you can cope with the rest of the game. And they've New Zealand pulled away in the last 20 minutes, so that's not you know, let's not say that it's not um impossible that it had a massive impact on the final result.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yeah, potentially. Uh, and I do think it played uh had a big part as to why certainly that first half was very flat. Uh wasn't helped by the fact it took about 20 minutes to make the decision because the referee had to go and go and watch it on the HIA review TV suitcase. Um, again, another glowing, glowing review for American sport and how they were able to get their stadium systems to but have you watched NFL?

SPEAKER_01 44:08

It doesn't take them that long to do it in NFL. I know, I know, it's bizarre. I mean, they obviously they have the benefit of just going to a commercial break or whatever, but I I don't understand how they've managed to make it such a contrived system to do that because they've got better systems for it that they already use in the NFL. I felt like willing ignorance more than anything is just like, oh well did did World Rugby just bring along Terry with his his 1998 laptop just to run it? Like, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

It's yeah, uh that's probably it just baffles me.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

How incompetent isn't the competition. It's it's incompetence all around, it's incompetence on behalf of the officials, it's incompetence on behalf of whoever set the system up. And I mean, to be to be fair to say something, it's it's incompetence from both teams who put on a pretty average game.

Ireland vs New Zealand: Scrappy And Stop-Start

SPEAKER_00 44:58

I'm trying to think of any positives from an island perspective. It was nice to see Calen Doris back after kind of the injury he got before the Lions tour. Yeah, he came on, had a bit of an impact. I thought you had a couple of nice carries.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

I thought Doris was pretty good when he came on. Um, I thought um Stuart McCloskey was very good. I thought he really put his hand up to be considered the starting 12, given that Bundyaki, as brilliant as he is, is 35. Um I thought the Ireland halfbacks were genuinely excellent. I thought Gibson Park and Crowley both had excellent games, actually. Um I know a couple of the kicks didn't go exactly to hand, but he was very close to putting uh Jimmy O'Brien away in the first half of the crossfield. Yeah. Tommy Osborne. Um, and there was the knock-on off, but that was from uh again Tommy Osborne on a really good line, but just slightly off on timing. But by and large, I thought both of those had excellent games. Um, and I think for my money, Crowley's moved ahead of Prendergast quite clear in that 10 shirt for Ireland because I thought he's he had a better performance than Prendergast has had in that shirt that I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Yeah, yeah. Can we talk about the no carry on if you had more points on individuals?

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Oh, what I thought Ryan Baird was really good.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Yes, shirt. Yeah, yeah. He's he's always been really good out on the kind of in the open pasture as well. I thought he he's he's good in the loose and he's definitely a good threat ball in hand. I just wondered, is there anything in this link to, you know, as we all know, Leinster haven't had the best start to see? Obviously, Ireland is strongly dictated by central contracts, so they're kind of obliged to pick all these centrally contract players, which majority of them play for Leinster. Yeah. Are we seeing the downside of the central contracts? And is that part of the reason why it was not a great Ireland performance?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Well, I think the Irish Lions players, of which there are a lot and of which a lot play for Leinster, have been probably too protected coming back from the season. Um, because there's a balance to be struck between uh keeping players fresh, but there's also you know, players need a tuning up for games. Um, and I thought I thought they looked undercooked, and I given that that a lot of them haven't played much. I mean, they said it was Conan's first game, Doris's first game of you know, of the season. You know, it's not like for their first game they've played since the Lions series. Yeah, um, that strikes me as just a mistake on their part because you know you there's there's intangibles to rugby that you only get by playing the game, and part of that is match sharpness, you know, that that feel of a that feel of the game, and you could see in a number of those players they just weren't quite feeling it. Yeah, you know, some of the line, you know, one lineup where they didn't jump for the ball, you know, you never see Ireland making those kind of mistakes. Um people running just slightly the wrong lines, um, getting each other's way a little bit, you know, they just looked a bit undercooked to me. Um, and I think ultimately the protections that the IRFU put in place, you know, in conjunction primarily with Leinster to keep these players fresh for the national team. I think in this on this occasion they've proved that they got the the calculations wrong on it because they just didn't look up to up to speed.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

It was like a pre-season performance. That's that's how I can kind of compare it to.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Yeah, it looked like the first game of preseason um for some of it. So the so they'll sharpen up by the end of the awesome nation series. I've no doubt they'll be firing all cylinders and they'll look better for it. But given how important this game was for for well, apparently for rugby in general, but in particular for Ireland on the you know the rematch and sh on Soldier Field.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Um I thought they well, they they've not got it, they've not got it right. Um so they'll have to they'll have to go back to the drawing board bit on that a bit, I think, for future future Autumn Internationals. Um But you know there is also the the point of saying, you know, they were in the lead until what the 62nd minute to matter scores. You know, for for an hour of this game, they were they were still in front of New Zealand, which actually probably is a bit of reflection on New Zealand's uh performance themselves. But um, you know, Ireland weren't so far off it as to come away catastrophizing, no, they were far enough of it that you need to have a think. Yeah, you need to have a real think about what went wrong.

The Tadhg Beirne Red Card Furore

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Yeah, they could they could probably take a lot, they'll take the positives out of, you know, they as you say, they were on top after 60 minutes, and that's including 20 minutes being down to 14. Um they they did well, they they would have played a part in New Zealand not looking that good. That wasn't all just New Zealand not being that good. Ireland would have put enough pressure on them to force that.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Oh, they were still super physical in the carry, super physical in the tackle. Yeah, you could see they were still knocking New Zealand off their stride. Yeah, um, it's just they weren't then able to kind of capitalise on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Uh from a New Zealand perspective, any shining lights?

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Uh Lester Fanganuku. You know, we knew we saw a few seasons ago how good he was, and he went to Toulon for a couple of years. And I think you know a bit of a fan favourite there, actually. Um, coming on for Geordie Barrett, sounds like Geordie Barrett and Scott Barrett are both going to be doubts for the rest of the tour. That's to be confirmed, but they're definitely missing this weekend. Um, good news for Scotland fans. Um, yeah, I thought I thought Lester Flyinganuku was really good off the bench. Wallace Titi um when he was on the pitch, proving what a handful he's gonna be with his pace. Um Camroy Guard, mostly very good. Uh a couple of shaky kicks in the backfield, but actually, broadly speaking, I mean his the pass he threw to Caleb Clark that ended with the Ardy Surveyor try. Um no, sorry, the uh Satiti try um on about 66 minutes or so uh in their own 22 on a high pressure scrum, and he throws the 25 metre pass flat to Caleb Clark on the edge, who makes a really good break, and they then swing it to the other side for Satiti to end up going under the sticks. That kind of skill level is phenomenal. Like that that pass itself, you know. The the the Americans would describe it as a quarterback throwing it on a wire, just you know, he didn't deviate. Perfect, perfect angle. Um, so I thought, you know, by and large, Cam Roygan had a really good game, which you called he might well do.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Yeah, I didn't I said it was gonna be a master class. I wouldn't I wouldn't class it as a master class.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

But it was a good player, but good, yeah. Yeah, and you could you could see that you know he's a player they need to hang their hat on if they're gonna um if they're gonna get back to the levels, which they they still look like they're not at.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Um, but in terms of fixing that, I think you've got to stick with Caleb Clark now. You've got to stick with Lester Fanganuku, uh, Tupai as well at 13. I thought really powerful. Yeah. Um Peter Lackay would look good at eight as well. Peter Lackaye at eight, really good. I just think they need to they need to set their stall out as to how they're gonna play. And my gut feel is with the those types of players, they need to go through the phase of being real power runners. And those are the types of guys who can do it. You know, I would probably start as a TT over Parker. Yeah, um, I'm not sure. I know is it Sonny Carter, the 14 Leroy was Leroy Carter, sorry. Um I know he he comes with a really big reputation out of super rugby um and has been playing really well, partly because I don't think they got the ball to him, but partly because I think he was just didn't quite get involved enough. Maybe that's one to change, maybe just go with Caleb Clark and depending on whether um Geordie Barrett's back in the team, putting Lester Fanganouka on on the other wing. Yeah, yeah. I would just go power game if I were New Zealand at this point, because I think that's the players they've got at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

It's a strength, it's a strength that they they should lean into. Uh that's kind of what I what was my takeaway is that when when they were doing the the power runs, the power plays, they looked mighty, mighty physical and were getting territory gain line success almost every every carry with the right players. So yeah, lean into it. That's what I'd do. Um but yeah, you know, New Zealand coming away victorious, winning the Gallagher did they call it the Gallagher Cup? I don't know what it was. Made up another trophy over one fixture. Um but you know, anything for an American audience. Uh on America. So the next two games I don't want to spend too much talking about because both fixtures uh kind of felt very uncompetitive. Uh Scotland versus USA, South Africa versus Japan, two landslide victories for the obvious favourites. Um I started watching the Scotland USA game and I had to turn it off because it just wasn't that entertaining watching a clearly better team run rings around a team who clearly is not at the level that you'd expect to in a first class competitive fixture.

Under‑Cooked Ireland And Central Contracts

SPEAKER_01 54:16

No, a nice warm-up for some of those Scottish players to go into you know they got New Zealand this weekend, which they will be gunning for because they I think they smell blood. I think they think they can get their first win over New Zealand this weekend, and I think they I think they've got a chance. I don't know if they will, but they've definitely got a chance. Um Japan, Eddie Jones is doing Eddie Jones things, he's picking players out of university, he's picking a team that he thinks he can train over the course of another two years to to go well at the World Cup. And you know, doubt Eddie Jones at your peril. He doesn't always get it right, but he doesn't always get it wrong either. Um, you know, South Africa is just a hell of a proposition for anyone, um, let alone a team that is not at their very best ever. Um, but I you know, I'd I'd like to think that the Japanese have enough there that you can see them coming back to the levels we've seen in say 2019.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah, well they did they did something that the USA couldn't against Scotland, and at least they scored some points. Um I mean this was just torturous, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 55:19

For you know, I'd I'm loath to feel bad for Americans. Um and I don't um no, I it's just it's just a real sign of where US rugby is at the moment, and with the best we're in the world, that USA team would but it it hasn't won many games. I think they might beat in Tonga in the fifth-sixth playoff at the Pacific Nations Cup or something. I don't know not not a lot. Well North American rugby North American rugby's on his ass. And yeah, it's you know the United States are a prime example of of that.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Um well they they seem to be hanging their hat a lot on the 13 Dominic Bessag as being like this superstar on his way through the system because he's still playing at college. Uh rugby one man does not make a th a team, um, so don't rely solely on that America. And I I think you just have to look at their team and you just think when when is this kind of raft of American talent going to start coming through? Because you look at most of that team and they're mostly imports still. I I I really thought by now we might be at a point where we're starting to see some American actual generated talent.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yes, best eggs probably the first one of them, but uh Well, I mean we should be probably careful about how much we class them all as imports because you know it's the great mountain pop, so these may just be second generation.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Well, no, like they like so Chris Hilsenbeck for 10 was a German capped rugby player. Yeah, and Toby Fricker English-Welsh, he's gone to America. He's perhaps has some American kind of citizenship, perhaps Tommaso Bonnie, another Italian capped player, he's gone to the MLR and he's now able to play for America. Mano Rin South African second row. I'm not gonna pretend to know how to pronounce that second name. He's a South African. Uh and I think what we're seeing is it's it's it's the fruit of the MLR probably being taken in the wrong direction where they just packed the teams for the importance.

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Well, the reality is they don't have a system really, do they? It's it's can you convince anyone out of college who doesn't make it into the big leagues to come and play football rugby?

SPEAKER_00 57:32

It's not American sport is built from a system where you have drafts from colleges that produce the world-class talent that go into these sports which are filled with American teams, and they think that's going to be the saviour for MLR, and they're going to produce lots of world-class talent through the college system in America. It doesn't get to the point that the world class the world class athletes don't play rugby.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

It might do, but below college, you need like the reason why that works in the NFL, for example, is because you've got high school football, and below that you've got what they call it peewee football. Yeah. Which is like the kids. Everything, everything in the big four American sports is a pyramid where you limit the opportunities to play the sport. You know, it's it's not a participation strategy in America, it's about limiting the playing opportunities at every level to the point where you condense the talent so much that the 0.1% of players in every year make it through to the top, and that is how you funnel the absolute best talent into those top leagues. Yeah, and that starts from you know, mass participation starts as a five to ten year old in America, and then by the time you hit high school, you might already have just found out you'll never play football again because you're not good enough.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, you go to a tryout, you get told you're not good enough, and then you go and play band. Like it's and that's probably a sweeping generalization of the American schooling system, because you know, neither you or I have have been there, but that's what it looks like from the outside perspective.

All Blacks’ Power Picks And Adjustments

SPEAKER_01 59:06

No, it's I mean, it it's it's slightly sweeping. There's you know, it's obviously not completely cut and dry, but the the broader structural point remains. It's it's about you condense the talent down as much as possible to the point where the cream has to rise to the top, and that is how they produce these amazing athletes at say NFL or NBA, whatever it might be. That just comes from but it starts from such a young age, and they don't have that with rugby. No, you know, they don't have a grassroots rugby game going, you know. It's so it's gonna be it's gonna take a few generations they need to think differently. They need to think differently. What they probably need to do is find a way to convince the players, the best high school players who don't go on to the best colleges, which will lead to them going to the NFL, to then play rugby at college and have a college system in, say, the second tier colleges that don't produce. The NFL players have a have a rugby system that runs through them, that then captures the best of the rest to then have the same, you know, you've got to then convert them to rugby players, teach them the game, should I do it, but then try and create that in a slightly more condensed time. That's possible, but you you you need to have that system in place, I think, and you need to have an incentive that gets that tells people, tells players that if you don't if you already know you can't make the NFL, don't play college football in these 100,000 seat stadiums, come play rugby. That's yeah, that's a tough sell.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

It's a tough sell, it's a tough sell. And then it's like, oh, this sport that you love, forget about that. Come learn this new sport you probably don't know much about, and it will make no sense to you, and you'll feel really bad at it to start with. And you've probably felt like you've been really good at the sport you're playing at for your entire life, and you're now gonna feel like you're useless. It is a hard sell, a very hard sell. Uh, and this is why America is not an easy nut to crack, as everyone seems to think it is, as alluded to in the first section of the podcast, Rory. Look at that. Connecting, connecting the segments. Look at us. We're almost like it's almost like we're really good at this. Um should we do predictions for the next round of Autumn Internationals now before we touch on some of the more domestic issues? It feels like a good place to do it. I think that's I feel that's better. So let's do our predictions. Obviously, there's a few more games this weekend because it's actual official international window now. Woo-hoo! Uh kicking off Ireland versus Japan. A good chance for Ireland to bounce back from that performance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Yeah, uh I suspect they will quite handsomely. I would see this being something like a 35-point win to Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yes, I believe so. I think we'll never we'll see another 50-point mark breached by Ireland uh against Japan as Eddie Jones continues his experimentations. Next game, you've alluded to already, I think, where you think this next game may land, Scotland versus New Zealand.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Well, I think Scotland will smell blood, and I think they've got a chance, but sadly this will be, I think, a gallant Scottish defeat. I think they'll battle hard, much the same way they did against South Africa last year, and look very good so we get something out of the game, and then probably won't, which sadly is a bit of a tail as old as time when it comes to Scottish Rogue being a lot of these fixtures. Um gut feel is New Zealand will sneak this by about five points.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

Yeah, I I have a feeling Scotland might have been lulled into a false sense of security with that 85-0 win over USA, thinking everything's all rosy. Uh, USA are not New Zealand, and it will probably be a bit of more of an eye-opening. And I I I think New Zealand do sneak this one as well. Next game, England versus Fiji. When we're watching it with a couple of drinks in hand at a bath establishment, and we're going to be watching the result. That is going to be winning by 20 points. England by 20. Yeah. I th I I think comfortable England win. I'd like to think it'd be a comfortable England win. Italy versus Australia.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Yeah, interesting. Tough one's cool. Um Italy very much on the up. Australia tough to predict at the moment, but I think they'll have some of their big guns back for this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Yeah, Icatao and Hooper definitely back.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Yeah, so I think Australia probably win this one by 10 points.

Scotland–USA And South Africa–Japan Blowouts

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

I'm gonna put my neck on the line and say this is the upset Italy get. Um I reckon they win it by a point in like a last minute penalty. Okay. I'd love to see it. I'd love it's mainly because I want it to be an Eduardo Todaro caused season. Uh but we'll see. Then probably the game of week two, or technically week one, France versus South Africa. Wow, who do we upset this week? Do we upset the French or do we upset the South Africans?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

I'm gonna upset the South Africans because I think they'll be upset anyway. Um I think the French will sneak this. I think this will be a humdinger. My suspicion is I just think the French will ride the emotion on this one because they they've developed this real rivalry with South Africa. Um and I just think they've got enough to do it. But that being said, it's worth of a fact paper fit between these two teams. It's there's nothing in it. Um but I think France will just have enough power with their big guns back. They're you know, they're they whilst they haven't played a lot of international rugby, they've played all played a lot of top 14. Yeah, I think the French win this one, but less than five in a yeah, I I I'm backing France as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

I I think France in France are they're definitely the second best team in international rugby, very close to South Africa when it's France in France. France away from France is a slightly different story, but I I think I I think you're right. I think France will ride the emotion. I think the rivalry's been it's a nice little bubbling situation there, and I think France will harness that. Uh everything in French rugby at the moment is moving in the right direction, and I can see this being a a moment for French rugby to really start to celebrate. Uh, and they would absolutely love the fact that they're beating South Africa. So even though South African fans will not agree with us, we are backing France to win this one by a couple of points. And then Sunday fixture, Wales, little old Wales up against Argentina.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Um I got upset this week. It's definitely gonna be the Eagles.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah, um, gotta be careful now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Nah, yeah. I'm sorry to say I don't think this is where the bounce back will happen for Wales. But not for any other reason, other than I think Argentina are just really, really good. Argent Argentina are very, very good. Yeah, they're a really good side. I and they've got they've got a pack that can roll over you, and they've got lethal backs, and I just don't think Wales will be there yet with the new coaching team, the new selections. Yeah, it's gonna take them some time to bed all that in.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Yeah, and Argentina are coming off they're coming off the rugby championship as well, like they're they're gonna be pretty fresh.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Yeah, I think Argentina will win this relatively comfortably, 10 to 15 points.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Yeah, I yeah, I can't I can't see past an Argentina win personally. Um but you never know, we might see something from Wales that we've not seen in five, six years. Um yeah, those are our predictions. And a nice little bonus prediction, Rory. Who wins? England A or New Zealand 15? England A. England A, all the way. Um by 18 points. Yeah, I've I'm predicting a 6550, just pure entertainment. I'd love that. Doesn't often happen at the wreck. Doesn't often happen at the wreck. Doesn't yeah, doesn't often happen at the wreck. You see games like that. Uh but yeah, that's Georgia International's wrapped up for this week, Rory. Now, a couple more domestic issues. Uh firstly, let's talk Prem Rugby Cup. My first point.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Forrester won a game this weekend, so we need to talk about this. It's important.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

Well, unfortunately, we can't talk that much about it because for some stupid reason, none of these games get put on TV, and there's no way of watching any of them unless you want to watch highlights from your own clubs. It's so I do not understand how they're they haven't been able to sell an opportunity. Considering TNT Sports are championing the Autumn Internationals as being a big thing that they're putting on TV. Why won't you double down and put more rugby on the TV in between these games? Like they had two games on the Friday that would have been a lovely warm-up to the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

So few people care about the Premier Cup. It would cost more to film it than they would get in advertising revenue. I just want to watch I just want to watch Rugby Rory.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

I just want to watch Rugby Rory. I know. I know, but apparently we're in the minority that would watch this. Apparently so. But it is a real shame because these games it's it's it is like the future. Like the most of these teams are using this as the competition to blood their younger players. Yeah. It's just it's really hard to get excited when you can't watch them.

Why US Rugby Keeps Struggling

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

Um look, and if you can't sell Newcastle Redford, Leicester Tigers 10, what can you sell? I mean, honestly, what Prem Rugby do better?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Yeah, unfortunately, that game probably isn't the best example for let's get something on TV when it's an 8-10.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

The Red Bulls coming full bore and uh narrowly losing out to Leicester Tigers D team.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

Yeah, the Leicester Cubs.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

Um yeah, um, not great. Uh Bath brought a team that wouldn't actually look that out of place in Prem. No. Uh just the strength of their squad as such. Smashing Bristol 49-19.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

Yeah, again, the Bristol Cubs.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:34

The Bristol Cubs, but to be fair to Bristol, I wouldn't have risked any more first team players either.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

No, I don't think they can afford to, because I think a lot of those players are not far away from getting their Prem debuts.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

Um the Northampton Saints, seemingly quite comfortable winners against Quinn's in the end. Uh, both very uh mixed bag teams, some some recognizable names, but not loads. But Saints coming away with the win. Yeah, yeah. And then the Mighty Gloucester. Finally! The Mighty, Mighty Gloucester winning away in a Humdinger, 28-29 away at sale.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

Um considering like I'm I'm surprised you were able to put a team out with players that generally haven't participated that much this season for your first team.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

No, no, well, a couple a couple of players on the on the comeback trail from injury. So Ben Redshaw started at 15, had some nice touches up from Swatson on the highlights. Yeah, Josh Hathaway making his first appearance, um, Cotgreaves starting again on the other wing. So good back three. The two Knight brothers in the centres, nice to see. Um, their cousin Kira Knight getting the court up to England A. Um, don't let it be said that it's incestuous in Gloucestershire. Um, and then yeah, George Barton getting a run out of 10 looked pretty good from what I could see. Well, Trenome at eight score a nice powerful try, but yeah, by and large, two pretty mixed sides from those two. Just nice to see Gloucester get a win. Um, and just also nice to see that they've not risked a soul.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is nice. I think and from the sale perspective, uh, I know they lost. I know this competition doesn't really mean much, but the the second row pairing of Patrick Hogg and Tom Burrow, those are two very high potential second rows, particularly Patrick Hogg, who has done the odd thing of moving from the Newcastle Red Bulls to the Sales Sharks Senior Academy, uh making the move that most players probably ain't gonna be making um in the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

Uh I I think they're finally getting on that take that hype, isn't he?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, uh, unfortunately can't talk too much about these fixtures, but we're just very glad for Rory that Gloucester were able to talk about a victory. Um, so we've given you a little bit of airtime to talk about that. But again, we spoke about it last year. We spoke about a little bit of the start of the season. It's really hard to get excited about the Prem Rugby Cup, isn't it? I just don't care. I don't care about it. I'm sorry, David. I just it's it's just so unimportant. Oh, it's a shame. It's it's it's there's so many things that could be done um to make it exciting. It's just I just I feel like even Prem Rugby don't care. Um and they probably don't. Uh I wish they did. Now on to a competition. Let's talk PWR briefly, Rory. That's the least we we care a bit more about that, I'd like to think. Um we do, we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

Gloucester Hartbury women getting their second one in the season, away at Exeter, good performance.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

4731.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:34

Um two from two from Gloucester Hartbury. No, no other team on the beating.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

Strong start.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

Strong start. Um, with the turnover in coaching and playing, I think they can be really pleased with that. Um Bristol Bears hammering Leicester Tigers 74-0 away. Not a good start to see.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:55

Arguably, Gloucester aren't the only unbeaten team, it's just Bristol have only played one game.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

Yeah, you can argue that, but I don't see why you would, David, and contradict me at this late stage of the podcast. Um very good point well made.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

Um, but no, Bristol looking uh yes, their first out in the season, so looking like they're starting well. So expect a real humdinger with those two sides.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:17

74-0 at Welford Roads, pretty I'd say is a bit better than starting well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

Um yeah, well uh well, real humdingery, yeah. Um well, you know, we're meant to see how good Leicester Tigers women will be throughout the season. So very true, very true, very true. Uh but you know, nonetheless, yeah, huge win. Um Loughborough Lightning winning at home against Sale Sharks. Holly Herson's move to the northwest so far, not proving fruitful. And I know they've pulled quite a bit of money into that squad this season, Sales Sharks, and um struggling to get started at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:53

And then finally, Saracen's women 47, Harleckens women 10.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

Quite the it wasn't the score. I thought it was gonna be a bit closer. Quite the drubbing, quite the drubbing. Uh, and I wonder if this is potentially showing the uh the gap in quality, maybe, between the top top sides in the PWR and the rest. Because well, you consider Gloucester Hartbury delivered one to Saracens. Uh Saracens have delivered one to Harlequins, and I'd say Harlequins are one of the better teams of the PWR.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

You would have thought Squins would have been among those top sides, so yeah, an interesting one. Um maybe just a couple of teams experiencing a bit of fluctuation post-World Cup.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

Yeah, but there could be I'll be very surprised that there wasn't a degree of a little bit of a hangover, and maybe some players still with a couple of hangovers, maybe. Um, and right rightfully so. Um, so yeah, but you know, all in all, it's a very strong start to um to the competition. Uh as you say, Gloucester Hartbury on top. Let's see a couple more rounds in, let's see how the table shapes up. Uh I'm intrigued. I I wonder whether Bristol Bears may be moving into the territory of being competitors for the top of that table again. Because they they've got some exciting young players. Uh obviously you've got Abby Ward, who's becoming a little bit of a um real driving force for Bristol and a kind of face on and off the pitch for them and a leader. Uh, so it'll be interesting to see because again, another team that I know money is being poured into to try and improve and kind of bring them up to that level. So it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season moves forward, Rory. Uh, and that brings us into AOB, Rory. Any other business you wish to address.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

If anyone does have any recommendations for the best pubs to watch the England game in Bath, we'd love to hear it.

Autumn Predictions Across The Card

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

Yeah, and uh if you play for England A or New Zealand 15 and you're planning to watch the rugby yourselves in Bath, let us know. Like, I'm sure there is a podcast guest in the England squad. Yeah, if you want to get on the podcast, like Archie McParland, nudge nudge, wink, wink. Uh we'll happily come and have a couple of drinks with you. I know that's not gonna happen, Rory, but you know, how often do you get the opportunity to do it?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Oh, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

We don't know that's not gonna happen just yet. We don't know that's not gonna happen just yet. But yes, uh, we're very much looking forward to taking Ruxmall. Buy all the beers. Not for the whole squad, Rory. Um it turns up. Yeah, that's true, that's true. But yeah, if you're interested in seeing Ruxmalls and Overballs on the road in Bath, come find us and uh we'll show you how uh how much we know about rugby in person. Uh and just yeah, have have set your expectations. Yeah, about our scripts and probably, let's face it, um maybe the filters will be gone. You you maybe you'll get a completely different version of us. Uh but yeah, very much looking forward to it, Rory. Um we'll report back next week for the listener. If you don't happen to be in BAF that weekend and you want to know how that that weekend's gone for us, we'll let you know. Uh look forward to next week's banter section. I'm sure it'll be great fun. Um but yeah, I I think that's a lovely, lovely note to finish the pod on, Rory. Uh which means, Rory, it's time for your final thought. And what is your final thought this week? I'm up on tour! And with that, we bring episode nine to a close. We've been ruthless and over bulls. If you've enjoyed listening, remember to like, follow, subscribe, and all those other things you can do. Um and we'll be back next week with more Rugby Fun.