S2 Ep 10 - Fiji Frights & Pom Squad Delights

A bright afternoon in Bath set the scene for a tougher truth: cohesion beats potential. We walk through England A’s sobering loss to a slick New Zealand XV and pull out what matters for selection, development, and how fast “promising” becomes “test-ready.” Two names rose above the noise — Ollie Hassell-Collins under the high ball and Tom Pearson around the breakdown — but the wider lesson was clearer still: the basics decide everything when pressure bites.

Switching to Twickenham, we break down England’s measured step forward against Fiji. Lee Blackett’s attacking patterns are starting to appear — better timing, kick-passing options, and support lanes — yet Fiji’s blitzed collisions and crafty set-piece exposed the limits of rhythm without enough gain line. Cunningham-South’s athleticism at eight, Finn Smith’s defensive bite, and Marcus Smith’s spark from 15 add layers to the selection puzzle, and we unpack why the coaches have turned back to George Ford to steer the All Blacks test while Marcus changes the tempo late.

Across Europe, the theme echoed: power wins. South Africa throttled France with 14 men, Scotland missed their moment against a carded New Zealand, and Wales’ attacking flashes couldn’t mask soft edges Argentina exploited. Italy’s big win over Australia gave this window fresh energy, while Ireland’s late pull-away from Japan left questions about fluency. We connect the dots: test rugby still hinges on dominant contacts, reliable line-out, and kick pressure that turns territory into points.

Tap play for straight talk on selection, tactics, and where the northern teams need more oomph. If you’re into honest analysis, smart detail, and a few predictions that might age dangerously, this one’s for you. Enjoy it, share it with a rugby friend, and leave a quick review — what’s your pick at fly-half: Ford, Finn, or Marcus?

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Transcript

Banter, Bath Trip, And Shoutouts

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome! It's Rux Moose and Oval Moose. That's right, it's the fans' favourite rugby podcast back once again with some of the fans' favourites rugby podcast hosts. Yes, it's me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener. Hello, hello listener. How are you? Well, I speak on behalf of all listeners and say, they're fine, Rory. Thank you for asking. Well, Rory, I I I feel like we just have to seamlessly canter straight into the banter section and talk about our big weekend. Big day out. Our big day out in Bath. Yes. It was a joyous old day. A joyous old day for the Armab clan.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

A great day with many waters, top hydration, peak nutrition, and lots of family friendly and completely expletive free banter and chat.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Absolutely. There's family friendly is definitely the way to describe it, and hydrated, definitely a way to describe it. All we can say is thank you very much to the establishments at the Boater, the Saracen's Head, Ludo, Ludo, Boater again, Bath the Wreck itself, the Huntsman, and any other place. The Boston Tea Cafe for a lovely breakfast. Really set us up for the day and provided us some uh much needed absorption in calories. Uh needless to say, I got a right telling off at Man V Fat yesterday. Not a good week for the waistline. Not a good week for the waistline, but it was a joyous day, fun had by all. We spent around three hours playing one game of naming rugby players' names with uh with our friends from university who are equally nausea to us. And uh maybe we'll bring the name game to the channel. Who knows? I don't know how it'll work, but watch this space. But yeah, Rory, I only saw you the other day, so I it feels odd to ask how you are, because I literally saw you a couple of days ago. So any anything to report since we saw each other? How was the hang?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I would say I wasn't too bad Sunday. I wasn't entirely in love with my train journey back through to Essex, but all told I can't really have too many complaints as all maladies was very self-inflicted. But no, a cracking day out. Boss a great town for it, as we know, and I've never suggested otherwise on this podcast.

Prem Rugby Finances Trending Up

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Also, uh thank you to all the people on the various channels who recommended locations for us to go. It did come in very handy. Yes, we utilise a lot of those. We did, we did indeed. Uh and it was uh and most of them turned out to be pretty good tips. So thank you very much for that. Yes, uh I must say my uh my hang's been probably not so fun because I've been incredibly busy, which when you just want to sit down and relax, it's uh No rest for the wicked, David. No rest for the wicked indeed. So, as you say, cannot complain too much. It is entirely self-inflicted. So I'm not expecting any sympathy, and I can report no sympathy has been given in the David home. Rightfully so. But Rory, we were there for a good reason. But before we get on to that good reason, has there been any rugby news in the world that's been pottering around in your rugby hemisphere of news that you wish to bring to the podcast to discuss?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Well, I not not a week of lots of news stories, but one that really caught my eye was reported over the last day or so. Prime rugby, bit of welcome good news or good indicators set to record record revenues of more than 200 million um yeah. Is that in comparison to years before, or is that not it's well, it's a rise in revenues, but it's also it's a 44% reduction in collective underlying losses. That sounds like a positive news story. Well, it sounds significant, doesn't it? Ums um debt still stands at uh in and around 100 million, uh most of which is owed to the government for COVID loans. Thank you, government. Thank you to our benevolent government. Um please cut the debt. Um but I think I think the main the I mean key facets to it, right? It's rising revenues and falling losses, yeah, which are both good indicators of the growth of the league. Uh and the the threat of uh old is uh R3 looming. Um it's good news on the strength of the league.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

So anyone thinking of jumping ship, it's now doesn't seem like the right time when all indicators are pointing in the right direction. Um maybe the ship isn't sinking after all. No, I and I think what you what you're seeing, I mean, some of the re-signings, you know, highlighted in this report. Antoine dePont committed himself to Toulouse. Uh several Saints players have committed themselves to Club Rugby. There's no been no real announcements of players indicating or threatening to join R360 from uh from the Prem. There's been some rumblings about some NRL players, but that's fine. They can have them. They can have them.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Um Black Ford signed on again, Cunningham South signed on again. Good news.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

It's it's all I think it's good news. Look, I think the pinch of salt is the league's not out of the woods, it's not recording profits, it's not um it's not highly prosperous business model. No, but it's it's it's going in that direction, and I think you know, all you can ask for at the moment. Absolutely. So I I I think we should we should celebrate it.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Woohoo! I am in celebration mode. Thanks, Rory. That's good news. And to everyone who was at Man V Fat last night, where there was a relatively heated discussion around uh some people suggesting maybe the Welsh region should come save the Prem. And I was saying, why do we need to save the Welsh regions, the Prem's, you know, right direction? And some of them said, no, it's not, it's it's going the wrong way. Here's the good news story for you that I told you we were on the brink of it is on an uptick. We are turning the corner, and it is I personally feel Prem Rugby is on an upward trajectory. Yes, it's from an upward trajectory from a very low trough, but that is an upward trajectory, and none the same, Rory.

Wales To Prem? Expansion And Viability

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. I know I I think there's a good debate around the Welsh regions joining Prem for certain certainly for uh uh Welsh regions, you know, entirely see why they are keen to um to that idea. I don't think there's much in it realistically for um for the Prem at this point in time. I don't think that they would gain much at this point from the uh inclusion um the world regions, but there's there's a good conversation to be had there, and I'm sure those conversations are are ongoing. But at this point in time, I think Prem Rugby consolidates its its position, hopefully adds a couple more teams to the to the tournament and expands back up to 12. I think sounds about right to me, at least at this point.

England A vs New Zealand XV: At The Rec

SPEAKER_00 7:05

And then that's the path we're on. I feel I feel like we're getting there slowly. Not gonna say surely, because everything you know is often pulled away from us, but you know, feel we're heading in that direction. Um that is generally news, newsworthy wise. Uh that's I'm aware of. We'll touch on the England team once we've done the assessment of the England game that took place this weekend. Um but reckon let's just canter straight into the England A game that we were present and correct for at the wreck. We can give our full bodied emotional reactions to that game live from the ground. Um and I tried my best to be as optimistic and energetic in my introduction to this section because let's face it, Rory, it was a bit of a damp occasion, shall we say? Well, although the weather was lovely.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, let's do positives, great day for it. Great day for it in Bath. Lovely day. Um pretty much full house, close to well attended, very well attended. Um I uh nicely uh remembrance at start.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Thought the hacker was good, you know. I'm not a great um advocate for hackers constantly, but I thought it was good and it was it was you know, it went uh all out of the atmosphere and I I enjoyed all of that. And then but yeah, into the game itself, you know, we have to be uh um to the New Zealand 15, who turned up clearly more coherent playing um the much um clinical well rugby, let's say, um, looking like a team that has played games together, which it is, fairness. Yeah, um the England well, how do you sum it up? Disjointed? From disjointed, I think would be the fairer assessment. Um, you know, it's an approach play, particularly in the first half, but the ball not sticking at the right moments to take advantage of it, you know. There were opportunities for the likes of Angus Hall, Blameer, um Jomo. There, you know, there were chances to capitalise on pressure and opportunity, but if we're being completely um frank, the the core the core basics let let England side down. The line out was a disaster. The scrum wasn't brilliant, um, and the attacking play just looked a bit pedestrian, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, yeah, and the handling skills not necessarily where you'd expect it to be. Lots of handling errors, obviously a lot of misreads, miss calls. There was I think three or four times there was call there might have been a call for the ball out the back, but there was no one there to receive the ball out the back.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, lots of out the back passes that hit the ground.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah, it wasn't the spectacle that we had anticipated, although, as we commented several times from the terraces, what a lovely vertical leap Noah Calore's got.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Noah Calorey, to to be honest, in person, that guy goes up and down like nobody's business. He does, like in the draws. Um yeah, believe the hype when it comes to Noah Calore's jumping, and actually start hyping Ollie Hasford Collins jumping as well because his highball work was excellent. He he really put his hand up. I'd say of the England A team, not too many coloured themselves in uh in glory, sense of putting their hand up for uh selection in the senior squad. I think they didn't know. But I thought maybe only two names for me. Ollie Hasford Collins was was one, and I would probably go so far as to say Tom Pearson was the other. Yeah, the only two for me as well. Yeah, uh, outside of you know, a difficult for the others, but I thought Pearson and Hampshire Collins particularly looked good. Um, you know, players there that you know, from a perspective, I really want to see Afo for Sogbon and Charlie Atkinson put their hands up to be given an opportunity just to at least get into the senior squad. If we're being frank, did have a great time at Scrum, and Charlie had a mixed afternoon, some nice touches, but some some rope errors as well. Um, I think for the Saints stable, uh friend of the pod, friend of the show, Archie McParland probably didn't put his best foot forward. Uh box kicking on this occasion.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Box kick. His box kicking did not match his uh club mate at Mitchell the week before. It was not as pinpoint. Uh yeah, and distribution may have been a bit may have contributed to some of the uh handling errors and things like that. Perhaps never got his game.

Standouts, Selection Stakes, And Learnings

SPEAKER_01 11:40

I think I think you know, hit him and suffered from if we're being frank, the physicality of the All Blacks 15 compared to the England up front, it le it certainly was uh it was bravy. And actually in the centres as well, you know, Max just cool got very little change out of the likes of David Havili, who, you know, let's be honest, seasoned, seasoned all black David Havili, and looked a cut above really um on the day. So you know, a good learning experience for some of those players who will go away from this knowing that there are some glaring errors areas that they're gonna need to improve if they have higher ambitions. Um, from the all blacks perspective, I I've got to say I was I was impressed, particularly by some of their physicality. I mean, Dalton is the monster that he's looked on the telly. Um, David Havili, just brilliant. I mean, watching that team and going, how how good are their centres if he's not getting selected? Yeah, um then you've got Sevi Reese on the wing. Sevi Reese on the wing, who is wheels, yeah, wheels, wheels, uh obviously suffering the uh the all policy of not selecting uh wingers once he's past the age of about 25. Yeah um and uh some good players that there that I hadn't really seen much of before. Fahaki, who I believe got player of the match at fullback, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um was good, very exciting. Carl Preston, the nine, I thought was very good. Um Jacom that controlled things extremely well. But yeah, look, the all 15 were were by some factor of multiple the better team on the day.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, um parts were greater than the sum of England's parts. I think it's a simpler absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

That that's the long and short of it. Um we yeah, if we if we have we have to be, we're an honest pod, we're we're known for being an honest pod, and England they were pretty disappointing. Um all things um I would expect a few changes before they go out to play Spain. Um yeah, I suppose it will be. And I think more than a few will have fallen down the pack in order of uh Steve Borthwick's thinking in the senior squad. Yeah, but that's the reality types of games, you know. You're uh you're in effectively a possibles team, and um it's not for all of them.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, I wonder, and it's something that well, certainly I'm guilty of, but we're guilty of is we're we're all very excited about the the development journey and the under 20 pathway. Uh our team were noticeably more junior, let's say, to the all black side. Perhaps we're just getting a bit carried away with the leaning into the youngsters coming through. Cause I think that may have been the difference. If we kind of had a few more of the more seasoned prem players who may be more at that physical level in that particular game, we might have seen a different performance. Because I think there was definitely a a focus on tomorrow rather than maybe looking at the form players and the Prem, whether they may be still they they may well be over 30 years old, but if you're English and you're playing well, maybe they still deserve an opportunity to be looked at in the England A over players who maybe haven't played much Prem rugby, but because they've come through the path very recently, we're getting they're obviously on the radar, so let's get them in the England A squad. Maybe there still needs to be a bit of a balance struck between what that England A squad's about. Uh and I said knowing I full well have championed for it to be basically packed full of X under 21 players, so I know it's me being hypocritical, but we're an honest pod, Rory.

England vs Fiji: Physicality And Attack Shape

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Absolutely, absolutely honesty is the best policy. Um, I I think there's some players who came on off the bench really, to be honest, after the the horse had bolted, who did impress. I thought Billy Seller um came on and really did quite shot, but I thought he was very, very physical when he came on. Um I thought Kingerfield actually did pretty well when he came on. He's got a massive boot. I think that was a you know that did help put a bit of a handle on things for a while. Um I suspect like Marzi White might be given a shot to start. Yeah, more than physical edge in the backs. Radwan, maybe as well. Yeah, yeah. I think I think you're right. You look we're we're also we probably almost more than anyone are guilty of um viewing things for fishbowl that is English rugby, watching the Prem, watching the under 20s, watching the senior side. And I think when you're particularly when you're watching the Prem, you can probably be guilty of overestimating the relative strength compared to other nations that you're less familiar with. And that was probably on show a bit on this one where players that we see perform week in, week out in the Prem and look very good actually in the uh in the against not the best players from New Zealand, but a very strong set of players from New Zealand actually were exposed to it.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think maybe a bit of a reality check for English rugby, and maybe a much needed one, perhaps. Um, we're an honest pod. We're an honest pod. Uh and honestly, let's just swiftly on, let's not dwell too much longer on that disappointing fixture. Let's dwell a little longer on the England journey through to the fixture that took place at the Allianz Stadium in Twicklem, England versus Fiji. With a bit more positivity than the game we just spoke about, Rory. What did you take away from that game? I must admit, it's all a little bit foggy to me. I've not had a chance to watch it back in full. I've seen some highlights, but let me know your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Well, uh, removing the fog from my brain, um, I think a couple of things struck me. Uh England are clearly on a bit of a journey here of implementing the attacking ideas of Lee Blackett. Um, there was a very good article this week looking at the old England attacks that failed for various reasons. Broadly speaking, comes down to timing and familiarity. Um, but what was what was key, and I think what what was actually on show in Fiji, in the Fiji game, was they're they're in the ro moving in the right direction in terms of taking advantage of opportunities, but they're not quite clicking entirely there yet. Um, and actually, when given a physical challenge of the likes of a team like Fiji, which you know, for for all of their flair and ability and how marvellous they are with the ball in hand, they are first and foremost a physical, frightening team. And they showed that big tacklers, big tacklers. Look, Tuasova and Ravuvu as a centre partnership have the ability to do the the impossible with the ball in hand, but they also have the ability to rearrange your organs when they tackle you, and they showed that at the weekend multiple times, multiple times, and you know, look, I love Fiji for that because they can they can go both ways with it. Um and the England team probably suffered from a lack of physicality, and I wonder if there's an extent to which obviously injury's factored into it a bit, but I wonder if there's an extent to the selection choices that Borthwick made here were to dip dip his toe in the water a little bit and just see how certain combinations stand up physically to test like this, because to a certain extent, you could you can use this as a proving ground for how you match up to a team like say South Africa, yeah, yeah, physically wise, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I wonder whether he's getting a bit of a bit of a sense as to what players can and can't hack it on those physical stakes. Um and look, they came out on top in the end, but not without their challenges, not without the challenges. It wasn't it wasn't a walkover. No, the score the final score line betrays the reality of this game, which was Fiji gave a really stern test here. Um if it wasn't for a really unfortunate knock-on from Kurovolli after what was a breathtakingly exciting attacking move where he just spills it as he's tackled over the line. Um this goes from being a 20-point swing, uh 20-point game, to something much more nail-biting. It would, I think that would probably have left it something like 26-25, uh, had that tribe been that that tribe been taken. Um and at that point, the jitters would have been going around the stadium, yeah. Um, if they weren't already. So, you know, Fiji come out of this with chins firmly up because they they gave England a real stern test here.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um kind of era in the uh the number two shirt for Fiji scored two really good tries, one from a rolling mole and one off a really, really good move after that at the front of the line out after they'd made England think twice about the mall and then taken advantage of a bit of short side stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Shows they've got that that side of their game too, so they're almost like a triple threat now. They're they're they've got the attacking flare, uh the attacking flair, they've got this physicality and defence, and they've also got some really nice set piece, um, planning, orchestrated moves, training park moves. Um VG, yeah, fair play. Those two tries were magnificent.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the Caleb Monts try is equally good for different reasons because it's just such good, intricate play. Yeah, particularly from someone who I think on a different day could have been player of the match, so Sovacula, the the six, who's got uh he looks about 400 years old because he's got grey hair and he's you know he he looks like your Fijian grandad, but was by you know by any stretch the the best forward on the day, I think. Yeah, um just everywhere, everywhere, ball in hand, rock threat, yeah. I thought he was um I thought he was fantastic. Yeah, an absolute an absolute standout.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Um on the England side of things, uh should we focus in on a couple of like the in the selection for this game, there was a few people who were brought in. So cunning himself at eight, do you how do you feel he fared staking his claim for the eight shirt?

SPEAKER_01 21:45

I think cunning himself put laid down a good marker. Look, you know, the other thing he only played 53 minutes, right? So there is still this question in the air around how much of a test match can Cunningham South physically bear at an effective level. But for the 50 odd minutes he was on the pitch, I thought he was excellent. Um left at all. Really athletic, yeah, really athletic, really powerful. Um, you know, making sort of half breaks, making yards, cutting good lines. Um, you know, I I think he's showing that he's got at least the capability to provide an a good option at eight there. Um, I don't think he's overhauled Ben Earl to start there yet, but he's certainly staking a claim.

Fly-Half Debate: Ford, Finn, Or Marcus

SPEAKER_00 22:29

No, I I think he's certainly showing that he has it in his wherewithal to offer something different to what Bern Earl offers in the eight shirt and offer it effectively in a different way. Uh line that's what yeah, and he does offer that additional line out jumper, which in this modern day and age where lineouts often go to pot um can be worth a lot to a team.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Uh I think he I think he's at the most line outs of any England player, which given you know Chesham's there presumably calling it, is pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Um so yeah, look, I think I think cutting himself state acclaim. Uh I thought Finn Smith was very good. I think he made 15 tackles out of 15.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

He always just defensively I I know the your your passion for George Ford, I know a lot of listeners' passion for Marcus Smith's flair, but one thing for certain that is always, always well, nearly always overlooked is how good Finn Smith is in defence. He tackles like no other fly half in English rugby at the moment. Uh perhaps Owen Farrell may disagree, but I still think Finn Smith's probably, you know, he's had to go to tackling school a bit fewer than uh maybe Owen Farrell has. But the way he commits to tackles, completes tackles, he has the ability to make a dominant tackle, and when you're fronting up to that Fijian back line, very, very good. I know I've I've seen um comments and stuff across the various social medias about how uh a lot of the attacking moves were failing because Finn Smith couldn't get the ball out quick enough. You tried doing that when you got Calavetti Revuvu and Tuasova charging at you.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah, Fiji did a really good job of blitzing. Yeah. And there's two sides to that, right? You have to solve for that as an international fly half. That's you do have to solve for that. But some days you're just gonna come up against a defence that reads it, and Fiji did, and they put in some massive hits, not just on him, on Marcus Smith as well, yeah, on Fraser Dingwall. You know, they put real, real pressure on the ball handlers in that in that back line for England. So um, you know, it it was a tough environment to get an attack going. There's there's definitely scope for improvement there, but then at the same time, you know, he sets up Fayo Bosa with a kick pass um that's becoming a bit of a um a go-to weapon for him and and is looking really effective. You know, Marcus Smith put Arundel away for I mean, I don't know what you compare him to, the roadrunner, you know, it's just just yeah, on Henry Arundel.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Okay, well, I remember watching this live. This is one of the things that has cleared through the fog. I still can't decide whether he is just that quick or whether Ravuvu just didn't think anyone was gonna be there and was trying to catch a breath. It could be Varore, but he's he's obviously very quick because he did 70 minutes on the pitch.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

That's very true. That's gotta be fair to say, but so you know the slight caveat is Revu might be moving a bit slower than he would otherwise do. But either way, Arundel's gotta make up 10 metres on him, and Ravuhu is a outside centre slash winger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Well, if you watch if you I remember watching it back, you see Marcus Smith's reaction to when he kicked it. He's telling someone to go cover him at fullback because he's like, Oh, they're gonna gather this and they're gonna kick it away, so make sure you're there to field it. He wasn't expecting Arundel to chase that and score a try. So the fact that he did probably does give an indication that, yeah, Revu's probably a bit slower than he may have normally been, maybe in the first minute. But yeah, Arundel. He's certainly good at announcing himself in the world.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah, he takes his moments, doesn't he? Yeah, he's a bit he's got yeah. I think him and Henry Pollock had just had this knack of doing the big flashy thing at the moment when it all eyes are on them, and that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

No, no, no, absolutely. And it's certainly not bad for the old image, and uh no, and yeah, fair play for England Rugby to cashing in on that.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, no, 100%. And look, it's good to see him back out there for for England, because you know, he where he may or may not be the finished article and where he sits in the pecking order, there's something about watching someone with raw speed like that go at full tilt that is just fun.

England Team Selection For New Zealand

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah, and you cannot argue on form on the Prem he deserves the shot, I'd say, because he's definitely one of the form wingers in the league. Um and I know at the start of the season I I certainly was saying he shouldn't be parachuted straight back into that England squad. Fair play to him for really earning that opportunity again and taking it, because we're an honest pod, Rory, and we're happy to accept when we've said something and we've been proven wrong. Because we're an honest pod. We don't lie, we don't lie here. Uh and if we do get found out to be retrospectively lying, it was uh because we were wrong, it's not because we were lying. We're happy to remember right or you quoted us out of context. Yeah. All that. Um anyone else? Anyone else for you? How about Marcus Smith at 15?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

I think he had a really good show in. Um Fiji's a good team for Marcus Smith to be at 15 against because they're not going to pepper you with loads of high balls and loads of tactical kicking. Um, you know, Caleb Mons is a really good fly half, and you know, I've no doubt that he's capable of in teams under kick pressure, but that's just not the way they play the game generally. They they do look to run it. They they did lots of very clever short kicks and little chips over the over the offensive line that um caused England problems, but you're you're just not gonna be as exposed as you would against, say, France or Argentina um with those high balls. So it was it's a good occasion for him to do it and prove that he's still got the ability to to fill in there effectively. Um setting Arundel up for a for a try is um is gonna do him no disservice whatsoever. What I did think watching him was for for as much as I love George Ford and for how good Finn Smith's defence is, when you see Marcus Smith's running game in action and his ability to put defences under pressure with that turn of speed he's got, you do at the very least have to stop and think, how are we not starting him at 10? Because he can do something different to um almost any other 10 I can think of with that with that step and go that he's got. Um, so you know, in some ways it's it's thrown up more questions than answers for me, but you know, I'm not paid Steve Borthwick's salary, so I don't have to make the decisions. And you know, in a lot of ways, I just think the fact that you could go Marcus Finn or George Ford, and there's a good argument as you could do why you could do all three of them, they're all operating at a world-class standard. It's brilliant, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

It's brilliant. I I think we spoke about before. I think I superpowers at international rugby. I think we've got three fire halves with three very distinct superpowers, and that's what makes it so difficult to decide which one do you put your hat on. Um because they're all very distinctly different, and they're all distinctly brilliant in their own ways. Um so yeah, it's again happy to be paid Steve Borfick's salary, but uh whilst I'm not whilst I'm not being paid that, uh I'm happy to sit in my sit in my chair and uh just say good luck on that one, Steve. Um I don't know how you get this one right. Um perhaps a nice segue into the team selected for weekend, which was announced today, Rory, as we record the podcast on the Tuesday. Um early again.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Uh and uh nice to be able to talk about this live because We we often just have to speculate a lot of the time. So, my initial thoughts on this are given the injuries, uh, Chesham not available, Freeman not available daily on his first week back in full training. Yeah, um I'm pretty happy with it. I think it's an interesting selection to go back to the the POM squad. Yeah, that was my first reaction. Um I could but given in the three tests against New Zealand last year, all three England were ahead going into the last 20 minutes and then weren't able to close the game out. I can see the thinking, and I think it makes sense. The question is whether that starting lineup is good enough to build a lead come 60 minutes on the clock.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, I I think that's a very interesting point. Uh, and perhaps that game against Australia was a test to see whether that was something that would be effective, and obviously I I feel it passed that test, so maybe that's why Borthwick's let's let's roll that dice again. Um I'm I'm well, obviously, as a Saints fan, I'm pretty happy with Alex Coles getting the start. Unfortunately for Chesham to be injured, but I I do think Coles will be a more than um suitable replacement and able to offer a lot around the park. He's incredibly mobile, great in the line out, great tackler, a bit of a jackal threat. Uh so I don't feel like we miss too much losing Chesham with Coles being the replacement. We've gone back to the back row of Colton Pepper, Underhill, and Guy Pepper with Ben Earl at eight. So we've gone back to that hypermobile back row, which would be interesting how that fares against New Zealand. Uh perhaps the big headline. Uh Mitchell carrying on nine, but George Ford being reintroduced at ten and Finn Smith being dropped from the 23 entirely, which for me is an absolute uh madness. Uh, because I feel like his defensive game would be ideal to have maybe on the bench here. To come along with the Palm Squad, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Here's here's where here's where I think it makes sense. Uh well there's there's a couple of reasons. Partly Marcus Smith's versatility. Um what I think makes sense is we're obviously going to be trying to leverage the high ball again. We you know, we've got Roebuck, Overbose, and Stewart in there. Shame not to have Tommy Freeman, who I my gut feel would be he's he'd be running at 13 this week if he was fit. Um but they're obviously keen to to exploit New Zealand under the high ball, which I think makes sense. That's not an area of absolute strength for them at the moment. No, no, um so I think that makes sense for them to do. He's also let's let's make no bones about it, George Ford is the best passing selector we have, and given the opportunities are going to be possibly a bit few and far between, um, choosing the right option when it presents itself is something you can you can almost put the house on.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

George Ford does it and he is probably the best game manager uh out of the three at the moment, still as well.

France vs South Africa: Red Card And Ruthlessness

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah, but then also with Marcus Smith on the bench, you've got the ability to really change the pace of the game. If you need to to bump the tempo right up, Marcus Smith is the option over Finn Smith, isn't he? You know, covering covering 15 is uh a nice thing to be able to have as well. But if you're going, what we actually need to do is we need to raise the tempo in the last 20 minutes to try and run New Zealand off the park kids if we're gonna win this and get the uh get the most out of the power game in that forward pack. Marcus Smith's the man you bring on for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Well, you're uh you're entitled to your opinion, Rory. Um Finn Smith for me all day, every day. But perhaps I'm biased. You might see that jersey behind my head and might give an indication as to Do you have a headache, Rory? Uh oh, suggesting maybe I'm a bit one-eyed. Don't know where that's coming from. Uh it's I just don't think he's uh he's not shown anything to suggest any reason why he would not be suitable to play in this game.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Um I think Finn Smith would would be able to play this game. But I think given given they've this they've obviously gone with playing George, George Ford is our top ten for the biggest tests. That's obviously the decision they've made. So if you're if you're then going off the basis of that as a starting point, Marcus Smith is the game changer between Finn Smith and him compared to George Ford. That's I that's the logic for me.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Okay, okay, Rory. Uh and then obviously in the centres, they carry on with Dingwall and Lawrence. Although I I I think I agree with you that they probably would have gone Freeman at 13 in this game had he been fit. And presumably only with only Ben L covering the centres. Yes, presumably so. Um, because yeah, on the wings is Fayo Roboso, Roebuck as mentioned, and Stewart at 15, and then the bench, uh, as you say, the POM squad again getting ready to be unloaded, and then just uh Spencer and Smith as back cover. Smith brackets M.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Uh yeah, yeah. The wrong spot. Yeah, look, I I'm actually I'm pretty happy with this as a as a squad. Um I've seen some people suggest feeling a little uninspired by it. Um, but I think given the balance of who's available, that squad makes sense to me. Uh that's I think there's there's a clear plan. Um there's clear there's a bit of clear plan for the Saltum Internationals that that that squad speaks to, in my mind. Um I think Halton Pepper as the flankers will give the New Zealand back row a real test, given you're probably going to be playing Ardi Savia and Wallace T.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Um, you you probably do need the mobility. You need at least one of them to be a line out option, that's Guy Pepper. Um and you've got the raw pace of Bernal there as well. For me, I think that's the about just about the right call.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yeah. Well, we'll we'll do our predictions at the end, Rory. Uh so save save that one for the end, but that would have been the logical next question. Uh, obviously, we'll tune in this weekend, see how that fares, and we'll discuss it all next week when it comes to England. Um let's shut the door of the Inca conversation for now, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah, should we run through some of the other results? Some interesting games that we saw. We saw a lot of these in in parts.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, some games more so than others. Uh, I feel like the most logical game to go to is the big one. France, South Africa. Yeah. Fantastic game of rugby.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

If you have the book persuasion. Um, yeah, uh France obviously coming out the traps quickly, with Penno scoring the first two tries of the day. Um, either side to apologize for butchering um the pronunciation name, but uh Umgomazulu.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Um Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

That's the one. Um, but France going in, I think they were 17 uh 1713 up at half time, memory serves. Um that foggy foggy memory. Yeah, but at the time looking um in a good position. I mean, obviously uh up, but looking strong in the game. You know, they looked they looked powerful, but they weren't necessarily taking all their chances. Um outside of Penno's two really good scores. I thought they were a bit profligate with the ball, unusually for them. Um obviously you had the Ludiaga red card, which I guess we'll come on to. Yeah, yes, we'll talk about that. But yeah, at half time, I think we well, there was a lot of South Africans in the in the pub we were in.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah, well, I remember feeling a bit smug.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah, we were a bit um we were a bit full of ourselves and full of beer, and they were looking worried, I would say. I think of that beef option.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Absolutely. I th it was definitely definitely a sense of oh, this is this isn't going as planned uh at that time. Uh perhaps driven by the loot de Jagu situation. Um we touch on that uh particular talking point. Is it a full red card? It's an interesting one, it's an interesting debate. Uh the most annoying thing is I've seen lots of South African fans, because they've got the fact of that, you know, let's face it, they won the game comfortably at the end, they're coming out saying, Yeah, it was a f it was a red card, and you know, with fourteen players genuinely gone, we still do what we can and still smash you, France. Um I have a feeling if they lost the game, they would all be up at arms saying it wasn't a full red card. Um yeah. Considering it was Ramos, wasn't it, who is the tackled party. Yeah, considering he was basically on his knees and there was one wrapping arm, albeit there was a bit of a tucked shoulder.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

He did tuck his shoulder, let's be honest, he tucked his shoulder, and he I'm not saying he was aiming for Ramos's head, but he was going for the he was going for a tucked arm shot. He was going for a tucked arm shot. Yeah. So and the the from a referee's point of view, if he's if you touch your arm, you've started from a position of illegality. Yeah. So therefore, mitigation is not applied. So the fact of so the fact of the tackle height, the drop-in height, that's not applied because you've from the perspective of, and this was exacerbated by them showing one angle in particular, which may or may not have something to do with French TV directors. There's been speculation in the past about them. Um, but if you start from that point, then it's a red card. The reverse angle obviously shows he's wrapped with his other arm. Now, a couple of points on this, I suppose. I think he's gone for the big shot. I don't think he's gone for I'm gonna I'm gonna absolutely take Tomorrow's head off, which got out of the realms of possibility, but I don't think that's what he's trying to do.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

I do remember a few years ago, and you you'll remember this as well, David, I'm sure, when England recorded uh one of their um rarish victories against the box, and Owen Farrell produced a similar type of tackle, Andre Estherhazen, I believe it was, where he rapped with one arm um but maybe went in with a tucked arm on the other.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Now, from memory, now correct me if I'm wrong, I believe the South Africans were feeling pretty aggrieved about that being a completely illegal tackle at the time, and it should have been a penalty to South Africa. Right, yeah. So, on that basis, should they not now agree that this that the referee's call was right on Luddiaga?

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Are you suggesting South African fans are hypocrites? I'm I'm just asking questions, David. I'm an on this is this is an honest pod. I'm just asking questions. An honest pod with some honest questions. Uh yeah, if you are a South African fan, please let us know. Um, because it's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Uh I'd love to know. From your perspective, is it illegal or is it not? Now you can what you can say, what you can say to South African fairness, is if Owen Farrell's wasn't a penalty, then this wasn't either. I accept that. Yeah. But what you can't do is still be upset about Farrell's tackle and not think this is a red card.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Agreed. Agreed. Those are your options. Those are your options, South African fans. Let us know. Let us know what you think. Um we would love, we'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, absolutely. Um, but I guess moving on to the more important uh elements of this uh from a South African perspective, they did cover the second half. Oh my god, yeah, they were irrepressible, weren't they? Um Dreester Hazen scoring a try from the back of them all. Um I look, I know that um there's all kinds of debates around hybrid players and have been ever since uh Eddie Jones mooted it with the likes of Jack Noel some years ago.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Uh Razi Erasmus is taking that to different levels, and he's getting proper change out of these five players.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

A physical freak that is Andre Estehayzen. He's quite lucky that he's there.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

Yeah. Oh, God. Godger. Um, but that to have done it to the point where he can control the ball at the back of a mall and score against that France pack, that is taking hybrid players to to planes hitherto unseen. Um, so fair play, fair play to Ramsey Razzles on that because that is phenomenal. Grant Williams with the little step and go off the back of a mall and sending everyone the wrong way, lovely. Yeah, and then just capping it off with Sasha's just lovely arcing run to to finish up finish the game off for South Africa when you know they it it got away from France at that point and their heads had gone. Um let's be honest, they've they'd just not thrown the towel in, but I think they'd lost, they they just lost the battle of wills in the end on the day.

Scotland vs New Zealand: Missed Moment

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah, I think perhaps that might have been a result of I imagine they probably were quite emotionally charged going into this game, uh, and seeing the grasp their grasp on this game fading with quite some speed in that second half. I'm not surprised heads dropped and leveled dropped with that. Uh as a result of it, and I think that's what we saw certainly as this second half came to a close.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

I think that's ultimately it. Their heads dropped pretty early, they lost belief. Um, and South Africa just kept the foot on the throat as they as as is their want.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um I thought once Steam Camp on c Steam Camp came on after 30 minutes for Venta in a brutal move from Brazzley again, another brutal move. Um, then Montagna, the uh the France tire head and then Aldeguery later on really struggled at scrum time, and that that just put that that game of real problems.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Um I have seen a little bit of questioning of Goltier about his um selections at prop because Montagna is 22-year-old prop who was playing Pro de Deux last year, so hasn't been tested at the test level. Um dossio is not even the starting prop at his club, who I cannot remember off the top of my head. Um is this I think there's been some questions asked about why they were the ones selected to go up against the infamously strong South African pack. And um I I imagine ability may have been part of that.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Um yeah, possibly, but but Aldegeri is a scrummaging prop of the old school, he's not necessarily going to offer you huge amounts around the field outside of hitting his rucks and making his tackles, but I think John Pepsi's gross is um is more impactful around the field, and we've seen in the Six Nations how uh how good a player he is. I think if you're down on you know obviously missing uh Weenie Antonio um in particular there, um I would have started the two senior props personally.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah, for that fixture, it just feels like it's it's an odd gamble when you look at it.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Um yeah, they're also missing by. Yeah, um, I think they're missing uh well, both buys, in fact. Um it's it looked an odd selection, but I don't watch enough top 14 or Prodigar to be able to tell you how this sort of falls in terms of the form charts at the moment. If you know, and that's again, we're an honest part. We're an honest part.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

We'll have to we'll have to talk to uh our friends at Ross Beefs who uh do some.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

We need to get from the Ross Beefs as to whether this was a good selection or not. What I would say is felt to me that they were down a bit of physicality in the back line, really missing Donty, I feel, in that centre partnership. I you know who wouldn't, but if it feels it just feels like the back three is incredibly fast, incredibly skillful, but it's not physical. Yeah, um, Fiku's an amazing defender and defensive organiser, and he's not a small bloke by any stretch, but he's not massive, brassy didn't have his best game. I don't think he didn't have his best game for my money. Um, as Fiku didn't really. Um, I think not starting Luku was a mistake. Yeah, I'm not sure. As good as Lagerrick is, but Luku for my money is the second best nine in France, arguably in the world, um, with the worst for Bordeaux. So that feels like a mistake to me. Um I feel like they I think there's right to be questions of of France.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Yeah, and they were missing like the ball carrying of Aldrit, who was in the stands, enjoying watching it uh along with everyone else. And I just yeah, they just they lacked real oomph. Uh and a question that I've I've asked someone recently is what's happened to Pasolo Tuolange?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Because come back from injuries, my understanding. Back from injury, because long-term injuries, but he's come back, and he actually I've only seen a few clips knocking around here and there. I see. Looking a bit leaner, looking a bit meaner, looking like he's some comparisons to some other Tuolangis in the lineage I've I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Um well, put it this way, he's looking more and more like his father. That's no bad thing. That's no bad thing at all. Uh, because I just feel like that sort of player is exactly what France missed, I think, in terms of normally when you go a man ahead 15 versus 14, you then try and put your foot on their throat. Where in this game, South Africa were able to put their foot on France's throat despite being a man down. And I think it's just that lack of oomph, that lack of physicality, and um and yeah, heads dropped. And that's that's that. That's that, Rory. Um all credit to South Africa, really.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, fair fair play to South Africa. You gotta you've gotta hold your hands up and just say, look, they are at the moment it's South Africa and then the rest of us.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, there's a reason they're number one and have been number one in the world for a very long time. Um, and I'm sure South African fans would love to remind us of that. Um, as is your right to do so, let's face it. Uh, any other pointers on this fixture in specific, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Uh look, I think I think for for my money, this is just a a sign of the coaching masterclass that's going on in South Africa and actually the galvanizing of uh of of their systems that are creating these squads because the the quality across you know 1 to 23 is frightening. It is frightening how good the players are there. You know, when you've got the likes of RG Sneeman and Andreas Dehazen to come off the bench. Yeah, and they're they're starters in any other nation, let's face it. I mean they're starters, they're captains, you know. It is frightening. Um, so for the the rest of the world has just got to try and catch up at this point.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, yeah. And there I was thinking France with a the beacon of hope for the northern hemisphere, who, let's face it, northern hemisphere hasn't done itself wonders this weekend. Um moving on from that particular fixture, let's talk about another colossal battle of north of north versus south. Our friends north of Adrian's Wall, Scotland, up against New Zealand with a real wind in their sails. The Scots of the South, exactly, New Zealand wins in their sail after their massive victory against USA, their Prem players available for selection, lots of enthusiasm about this being their greatest ever chance to right some wrongs and get that victory against New Zealand that's evaded them for so long. The build-up was massive, and uh they went and lost it, Rory. Uh, how would you describe this game?

SPEAKER_01 49:20

I mean, actually very exciting. Um New Zealand racing to a uh 17-nil lead at half time, yeah. Um despite having had uh a yellow card for is it Leroy Carter on the wing? Yes, well done, Rory. I believe that is the correct name. I'm remembering first names. I'm up to three or four first names, I remember now. That's good. Um yeah, so Cam Royal is Rory. Oh yeah, I remember. That's it. Um Cam Royga getting the early score, um Bone Barrett adding some adding a penalty later on in the half, and then Will Jordan scoring on the stroke half time in a bit of a hammer blow for the Scots. Uh the for my money, Scotland are never gonna get a better opportunity than this. New Zealand were down to 14 for half an hour, um, and despite all of that, the score, the aggregate score line across that half an hour was 7-0. That's not good. It's not great from their perspective. Um, it's difficult to put exactly as to why that is, other than Scotland just lack a bit of a um is there a theme occurring, Rory? Yeah, they've just come they were just out muscled, I think, for my money. Um which is a hard one to solve because there's not I can't really see, you know, they're missing the Faguson, uh uh uh Zanna Fagason, and outside of that, I can't see an obvious fix there for Scotland to to reach that next level, short of finding some physical monsters. We know the likes of Ruben Logan are coming through the system, yeah, who may be able to add something to that, but just New Zealand just had that bit more, yeah. You know, they just but you know Scotland put them under real pressure. Listen, you what we can't forget is that Scotland got back to 17-0 from being 17-0 down. That's some that's some fight back. It's a huge fight back, and it was it was exciting in the pub. People were people were getting very excited by this. Um, and you know, I think for a from for a moment we thought they'd do it. You know, they looked the better side, um, they had more opportunities, they just aren't they just weren't able to finish it, they weren't ruthless enough. Yeah, um, and that's just seems to be what they're lacking is just that extra bit of ruthlessness you need at the real top end of international rugby. Um because you know, the likes of Darcy Graham were brilliant, Carl Stein, very good. Tupeloso and Hutchinson, I thought looked really good in the centres. Go on. Um yeah, um Finn Russell, Blair Kinghorn, probably two of the more disappointing backs this week, actually. Yeah, all things considered. Um didn't quite bring their quality to the fore. Um, another of your boys, Miller Mills, I thought was really impressive when he came on, shored up the scrum. Yeah, well, an underrated player. What'd you expect? Um Ashman was good, and then George Turner when he came on was good. Gooman, um was excellent with the particularly with the ball in hand. Jack Dempsey made real inroads, but it's just that bit from being almost there to being better than the team they're up against. It's just something missing there.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

You list a lot, you listed a lot of players there, and your description for most of them was they were good. And that's great, but there wasn't enough of them who were excellent. Is it is that the difference, Maker? Because obviously New Zealand they have a number of players who often have excellent as their standard, and maybe that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Well, let me read you off everyone who scored points for New Zealand in this game.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Sam Roygaard, excellent, Will Jordan, excellent, Damien McKenzie, Bowdoin Barrow. Now, regardless of how well or not well they performed in this game, there's that's a different debate. What those players all have is that ineffable bit of stardust that elevates test teams to to higher higher levels. Scotland, you know, Finn Russell, Siona Tupolotto, and Blair Kinghorn should be the players that do that for them. Yeah. Um, but then they're just not at this point in time. I don't know what it is, but they're not doing that. Um not to say they play they all play badly, but what they're not doing is taking the game by the scruff of the neck and winning it for Scotland.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

No, they're not being the difference makers that they have the ability to be at that point.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

It can't exactly, it can't just be spoiling England's Six Nations Championships that's the that gets you to that that level of performance. Because that you know, that's let's be honest, Scotland have been better than England for the last few years because they're able to raise their game to levels that that beat England consistently, but they can't do against Ireland, they're already done against France, they're not doing against New Zealand, they didn't do it against South Africa last year. Yeah, you know, it's one trick pony. How do they how do they raise their game to that level consistently to beat those teams all the time?

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I that is the secret. Uh and if I was in the head offices of the SIU, I would be looking at Gregor Townsend and wondering, yes, you've got on your CV your excellent record against England. What are you doing about everyone else? Um, because that does seem to be the difference. And saying all this, fully respect the fact that Scotland did turn this into a close game in the end.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Oh, yeah, yeah. They they they were so in the fight here. Yeah. So in the fight. But it's being in the fight and it's winning the fight, and uh that's that's the difference. And will they get a better opportunity than this in the next five it's hard to see it's hard to think what? Unless, you know, what they what they really need is to be playing New Zealand every year.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

That'd be nice. Yeah, that'll that'll help.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Yeah, I mean you know, someone made the point, you know, it took Argentina nine years of being in the rugby championship to beat New Zealand, and now they get they nick a result off them more years than they don't. Yeah. You know, Scotland, for whatever reason, aren't seeing that raise in performance level from the Six Nations every year. They need they need to play these someone like New Zealand year in, year out.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

Not that I want to open this can of worms too much right now, Rory, but are we seeing there's two angles here, actually. But the the Northern Hemisphere versus Southern Hemisphere, which is an argument that I detest because I just really don't see the point of arguing about what side of the equator you are. But obviously the Southern Hemisphere sides are coming quite freshly off the back of the rugby championship, so they're perhaps more battle-hardened when it comes to these autumn internationals. Um but also just is there a quality difference between the North and the South, as much as I hate for the equator to be a deciding factor into the quality of a player, is there actually a difference between the two in terms of quality?

Italy Upset, Ireland Edge, Japan’s Signs

SPEAKER_01 56:12

It's hard, it's it's a it's a really hard one to answer because you know, by by a stretch, the best international side is South Africa. Are there club sides consistently ripping up trees in Europe and in the URC? No, but are all their players there? No, they're everywhere. So, what is it that when they get together for South Africa, they raise themselves to a level unlike any other team? You know, some of it's gonna be the Razzie Erasmus factor. Maybe it's a coaching issue, maybe it's they've produced better coaches. There I know there's there's an argument for that, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Yeah, yeah. And the the South African school systems, probably the best, better, better best for producing young talent, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Good argument for it. Um but maybe there's something about the the way South Africans feel about playing for South Africa compared to other nations playing for their countries that is different and and motivates them to different levels. That could be it. You know, they have the best players in terms of results at international level, they won the last two World Cups. Are they absolutely 100% the best players again versus every Northern Hemisphere option? I don't think that's necessarily true, but they do could they do produce better performances, you know. New Zealand difficult to say because there's there's there's still lots of questions about New Zealand, but they do keep beating Northern Hemisphere sides.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

So they do, they do indeed. Uh and yet we sit here and keep saying it's unconvincing, um, which is I'm hoping doesn't carry on uh to next week. Uh perhaps to help strengthen the argument roaring, the next fixture that we'll talk about. Uh our our friends over in Wales getting their first outing in the Autumn Internationals against Argentina uh of the Southern Hemisphere again. Well, yeah. Um Green Shoot Guess what? Guess what, listener? Argentina win. Spoiler alert.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

Yeah, it's Argentina's record win against Wales. Uh 52-28. Um you said Green Shoots.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

Green shoots.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

I look, I thought at times, with the ball in hand, Wales looked the best they've looked for some time.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Okay, I think that's fair. I think going forward there was definitely a bit more to them than there has been in recent times. You know, the Thomas Williams try was genuinely excellent. Genuinely very, very good. And it was good to see Thomas Williams looking like he was enjoying playing rugby again. Because I don't think he's been enjoying himself at Kingsholm recently.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Thank you. Um but bastard. Um but at the same time, at times it it did look at points quite easy for Argentina to shred at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

Yes, that was going to be my next point is um I'm not sure whether the defence has changed a great deal because Argentina were able to slither on through with quite some ease. And I know Argentina are good, but it didn't look like it took a lot to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

No, no, it didn't. Um, and lots of different tries. Um a quick word for the Mateo Carreras try from Matera's break and left foot kick down the touchline, which I just loved. Such a trade. Juan Matera is is a world, world, world class player. Phenomenal. He's um cremer just he the man could put dents in battle. He is just enormous.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

But you said his name, Mateo Carreras. I've forgotten how good he was because obviously he'd left our shores, he was kind of a stallwart up at Newcastle, was Falcons. I've forgotten how good he was. Uh I I want him back. I want him back, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

I I want to see as m more Argentinians back in the league, particularly Argentinian backs, because uh who was it who was down at Exeter for a little while? Um in Paris, Cordero. Yes, yes, Santiago Cordero. Just I want buzzy fast Argentinian wingers just carving up. They're just exciting. Um I think Cruz, the nine, uh Benito Cruz is with us. Really, really buzzy. Um really liking Del Ghee. Yeah. Yeah, he looks he looks dangerous. And they're just factoring, you know, Chocobares. Malia was on the bench. You've got Santiago Carreras at 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

It's good to see him enjoying his rugby again. So he I feel like he maybe not have enjoyed his rugby quite as much when he was at Kingsholm.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

Loving this, loving this running joke, David. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

We're an honest we're an honest podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

We're an honest pod. Yeah, we're on his pod. Uh side note, seeing uh John Mitchell's in helping out the Gluster staff at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

I did see you shared that with me. Uh that's an interesting one. Um yeah, not getting paid.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

I think we're just maybe soft launching a change of coach. Um and I'd be happy with that as a change of coach, frankly. Yeah, that's um yeah. Outside of that, I was really impressed by uh Priscetelli. That's the 10.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

I didn't I didn't know much about him before this game. No, I enjoyed watching him play.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

In the summer, was it Albanos?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yes, it was Albanaz.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yeah, I when I first watched him, I thought, oh, he's really pretty solid. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the fact that Argentina have real options in these areas is is a good sign for them. Um, but uh the rugby they play at times is scintillating, and then just factoring the likes of Delgado, the tiehead, is just shoulders like boulders. Like his try, he didn't he didn't so much score a try as he just proved the laws of physics. Everything falls to ground hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, some things are inevitable. And turns out Pedro Delgado finding gravity is one of the most uh convincing arguments for gravity uh that I've seen for some time.

Week Three Predictions And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really obvious. Um, Michael Vivas. Uh nice to see him enjoying his rugby again because he wasn't really enjoying it over at King's Home. Oh, you got there. Got there just before we came. Um look really good. I thought why did you let him go?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

He looked really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

I honestly don't I don't no one knows what the story is there, just sort of just disappeared. Um, I don't know if it was a falling out or what, just sort of went. Um I'd really love him back because we've been real short of loose ends. Um, but yeah, I'm sure he's enjoying his rugby elsewhere. Um, but yeah, I just Argentina are just good, aren't they? That's the thing, you know, it's no longer like the plucky Argentinian side or this Argentinian side to come out of nowhere. Argentina are just good, they're just a really good side that you have to work really hard to beat. Yeah, they've got threats all over the pitch. I mean, they probably their own worst enemies at times. Um, the is it the Dewey Lake? Yeah, Dewey Lake's try that starts with the guns, the very nonchalant Gonzalez knock-on in the 22 from the bore. Um Jack Morgan's try coming from a tap and go, you know, that they're a bit loose at times still. Um maybe it's a bit of a mentality issue. But ball in hand, good god, they're good. So good, so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Uh I suppose on on Wales, Jack Morgan's injury.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

Not good news. Discate shoulder probably out for two or three months.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Um, yeah, really, really bad for them. He might be on tight timescales for Six Nations. Hopefully not, but he's such a talisman. Like you watch like his if you just ever watch Wales, despite all their results and actually pretty lackluster performances, Jack Morgan always puts in an eight or a nine out of ten performance in, and he was doing the same here. He's a phenomena.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

And what I like about Jack Morgan is he's not someone who's come through the conventional way. He he was playing basically local rugby, never got never got the selections, just kept working at it, and eventually got himself up into the Ospreys team and made his breakthrough for Wales. But you know, he was he was working on uh he had a day job like building sites, working and and then sort of semi-pro um in the super rugby Cymru. Um but just crazy to think a talent like that could have slipped through the net. Ah, I mean, you know, whoever whoever's not selecting him in the lower lower division or lower age groups should be sacked immediately. Um yeah, I mean for Wales at times they played some quite good stuff, you know, they're quite quite attractive with the ball in hand, you know, some good stuff there, but just lacking oomph and lacking power, lacking a bit. It's a theme, isn't it? Yeah, it's I think there is a theme of at the moment northern hemisphere sides, or the home nation sides in particular. I think they've all suffered from lacking real ball carrying power. Yeah, there just seems to be a bit of a dearth of it at the moment. Um you know I I think I think they I think they can all they're all guilty of it, really. I don't think England have got not particularly now Tom Willis's um Fetting made himself unavailable. He brings oomph. Yeah, he's he's um oomph to the max, but they're no outside of that, do they have a um real game-breaking ball carrier? I mean, is it any wonder that like that Hoskins Satutu's being mooted again?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

Yeah, I've seen his name being linked um with linked to Saracens, linked to Newcastle, linked to Gloucester, and Links linked already with 150,000 DPS contract. So yeah, uh interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

Just there's obviously a concern about real ball carrying power. Um, Wales, you know, Wainwright carries a lot of this on his shoulders. Dewey Lake at his best is a really good ball carrier. Brees Carey, very effective in the Prem. Did he quite manage to translate at the weekend? Couple of moments, but not quite.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

No, I thought Nicky Smith looked good when he came on, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

Yeah, really good player, Nikki Smith, and punches well above his weight. But is he doing the same job as, say, Angus Bell? No. No, you know, it's those those undeniable ball carriers seem to be what's what's really lacking at the moment. Um, and it's something they're gonna have to solve because that's that's the thing that's that they're suffering with, I think. You know, Wales playing a lot in front of the defensive line, not really making dents, and then ball goes loose, and Argentina, Argentina just flood up the field.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh maybe Lewis Reesamit's the answer, Rory. He's bulked up. Does he bring oomph? Possibly.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

I you know, I but I don't think Wales are in a position at the moment where they they're able to you get the most out of him. Um I think the the problem with Lewis Reesamit is with his pace and his height, you want him to stay out on the wings for uh for a kick pass or for the you know when there's a bit of space there. But his size, you want him playing that kind of almost fair moboso roll round the rucks and just bring in bringing that power into it. I don't think that they've worked out how to get the most out of him at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Um well if we were paid the salary of Steve Tandy, we'd figure that out. But unfortunately, once again, we're not gonna be no one's paying us, so we can't solve that problem for you, Steve. Sorry, it's well it's the running Steve theme. Um we're an honest pod. We're an honest pod here. Um like I said, uh yeah. I I'm not gonna dig in on Wales, uh, because there were I saw I saw some improvements.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

There was improvements. There wasn't it. But defensively they were a bit all over the place. They were and they there is still a quality gap.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

I I also think the Ben Thomas kick just stupid. Um very lucky boy, because I think on another day that was a straight red and several weeks banned. If Argentinians player's head was an inch to the right, uh I think it was Matera. Um stupid. Uh so less of that, please, Mr. Thomas. Um and yeah, probably not let's not dwell on that too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

Uh I think I think I think so enough green shoots there for some for some Welsh fans to feel a twinge of optimism, but the the from what I could hear on the telly listening to it and from reports, there feels like feels like the apathy's really set in with Welsh fans. So I'm I'm I I hope they get some good news soon because it's it's not sounding great at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

Um it's not, and the Jack Morgan injury will not help.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Um shall we run through just the the last couple of results very quickly?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

Yes, because in positive news in the battle of the Northern Hemisphere versus the Southern Hemisphere, Italy pulled off one hell of a victory against Australia, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Yeah, yeah, not their first victory. They did they did beat them a few years ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

Uh um who called it? Just before we get started, who said this was going to be the upset that Italy get in our predictions last weekend, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

Me. Me? Okay, fine. Well done. Thank you. We're all really proud of you, David. Thank you. Um, no, look, uh, you know, just really good from Italy from from what I saw. I think Australia um some their their pack is still really powerful. They actually just weren't really able to capitalise on power, and um their discipline was poor, as evidenced by having given away four penalty scores. But actually, Italy's tri-scoring opportunities all seem to come from um Australia giving away penalties, giving away field position. So it's it seems like a discipline issue from their point of view. Yeah, uh, but for Italy, just really um really positive news for them. Just the fact that they're in the mix of these kind of games. Now they've got a much tough, tougher fixture coming this week. Um but getting consistent results against these types of teams that are at in and around their ranking is gonna breed confidence for that group. Yeah. And I can see more than just the one upset coming from Italy in in the few years. I think this could be you know a consistent problem fixture for teams because that that Italy team has got ballers now.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

It does. And it's a young team, and we've spoken in the past about how the Italian machine is working, and we we didn't talk about the other weekend, but we saw that there was a fixture where the the Italian 18s smashed the island under 18s. Yeah, yeah, absolutely hammered them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Um you know, just just some of the names here. You know, you got Ross Vincent's still very young. Um Louis Diner feels like he's been around a long time, but he's he's still pretty young. Menancello's not very old. You know, Capozzo's probably just just come into his peak years. Zamboni's barely out of the under 20s, you know. The there's there's some real talent there, and we know the likes of Todaro are coming through. So, you know, as long as that conveyor belt keeps going, I think we'll see more results like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

What we're saying is Italy are basically the yin to the Welsh rugby yang at the moment. They're two nations in two very different trajectories, uh, unfortunately. Uh and the the other game, uh, I'll put my hands up, didn't pay much attention to this game, uh, mainly because we were busy elsewhere in Bath. But Ireland against Japan, I know it was close for quite a long time, but then Ireland pulled away.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

17-10 at half time. Yeah. So, you know, I think probably from Eddie's perspective, that will be um positive in and of itself. Um from Ireland's perspective, you know, they've they've scored another 24 points in the second half and pulled away from what isn't mooted to be a vintage Japanese team at the moment. Um but some green shoots for Japan in the sense of having made Ireland work for it for some period of time, they'll they'll hope to to carry on that trajectory, but uh remains to be seen if they've got genuine uh possibility of building a team as strong as 2019 before the World Cup.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:50

Yeah, yeah. Well perhaps on that we should move into the prediction space because they have a very important game against a nation that we've spoken about quite recently uh that could really dictate the World Cup pools. Um but we'll get on to that. We'll start off in the order of the kickoff times with this week's predictions for week three. Italy versus South Africa.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

Well, look, I it a really good result for uh uh for Italy this weekend, but this is a different different test entirely. Gut feel is South Africa probably win this by 20 points.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Yeah, can't can't see any other way around it. Italy, as good as you are, South Africa are a different gravy. Um then a tasty, tasty game at the Allianz Stadium in Twickenham. England versus New Zealand. That unconvincing New Zealand side that keeps on winning.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Yeah. New Zealand won the series three now last year across two in two in New Zealand, one in Twickenham. Um no, I think we're gonna win it. I think we're gonna win it. I think I think we'll win by five.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

I'm gonna be victim. No, I'm gonna be uncontroversial, and I'm gonna agree with you. Maybe boost it to three points, but I think England nick it. Uh either and I'm gonna be honest, I don't think it's gonna be a game for the ages. I have a feeling this is gonna be an arm wrestle, lots of kicking, and one for the purest maybe. Um but if England win, I don't care. Um I look forward to talking about it next weekend. Next week, though. Uh the game I was just linking, well, hinting towards Wales versus Japan. Um a lot riding on this game.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

A lot riding on this game. Um Wales will be really have targeted this one, obviously. I think they will get a victory in this one. I think Wales will win this by five to ten points.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

I hope you're right. I fear for what happens with Jack Morgan gone because they've lost their talisman. But I'm gonna back the other players to step up in his absence, and I'm going to agree with you that Wales get a much, much, much needed win here. Um, perhaps because Eddie Jones has come with quite an experimental squad. Um, unless he's got something rolled up his sleeve here that we've not spotted, I do think Wales will have enough here. Then we're moving over to Bordeaux for France versus Fiji. Where do you think this lands, Rory?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

Well, I mean it could be a really entertaining game. Well, it should be. Should be very entertaining. And we know Fiji and no mugs, and we know France are not 100% convinced at the moment. But Garfield says France win this one by 15 points, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

Yeah, I think we see a French reaction to the disappointment against South Africa, and I think they will come to prove a point that they're second in the world for a reason, and they'll want to put Fiji to the sword. Uh let's see if they bring the oomph. Um, but we'll see. We'll we'll see how that one goes. I agree. I think France will win that one. Uh Ireland versus Australia. Interesting one, this. Uh Australia cutting off the defeat to Italy. Ireland not setting the world alight in this autumn period so far. This could be the weekend's upset.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

I think Ireland are not flying at the moment. Um obviously had a bit of a tune-up with Japan, poor against New Zealand and Chicago. I think Australia are gonna be desperate to get a win out of this series. Um will be very, very disappointed off the first two show-ins. If they're gonna show up, they're gonna show up in this one. I think Australia did sneak this by under five points.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Yeah, if if you don't think Joe Schmidt's been targeting this game, this is the You ain't concentrating. You ain't concentrating because this is this is a game he's focused on. Uh and I I agree, I I d I d I'm just not seeing it with Ireland this autumn. Um something just doesn't quite feel like it's working at the moment. I can't put my finger on it entirely. Uh I know they just beat Japan by 41 points per 10, but like look at just look at the score up until half time. I think Australia. I think Australia will really uh stick it to him, and I think it'll be an Australia win as well. Um so I'm agreeing with you again, Rory. Oh, what's going on? Scotland versus Argentina on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:18

I think unfortunately, I think the misery doubles down in Scotland, and I think Argentina come away with a win here. Okay. I really like this Argentina side. I'd you know, I'd like Scotland to to have some some positivity off the back of this series, but unfortunately these things often didn't come in multiples, and I I think Scotland will come unstuck in this fixture, and Argentina will win this by ten points.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:41

Okay, well, I'm I'm gonna say I'm backing Scotland, and it's only because I don't want to have the exact same predictions as you in all of the games. Fair enough. And I'm willing to be wrong. Because I'm a uh we're an honest pod. We're an honest pod. We're an honest pod. We're we just we're just honest. We're honest people, and we've an honest pod. So yeah, Rory, let's see how those predictions fare uh next weekend. I'm looking forward to yet another lovely weekend of rugby, albeit I will not be in multiple establishments in Bath enjoying a Guinness or two, unfortunately, Rory. Um I will be in multiple establishments in London. Well, there we go. I look forward to the joining you this time, but uh behave yourself, have a lovely time, and remember when you're playing the rugby name game, to drink while you think. Um rules are rules. Um and just for the listener's sake, I was very impressed at Rory's ability to remember names considering his track record with them. Uh I get cleverer with Guinness. That makes a lot of sense, because you were very clever, and there was a lot of Guinness. I'm gonna end the podcast slightly differently this weekend, Rory. We'll still do your final thought, but we're gonna end in homage to Shawnee, the author to the Ruxmalls and Overball song. Hopefully he's listening to this points to the episode. We'll end with the Ruxmalls and Overball song. But I'll invite you for your final thoughts and final goodbyes to the listener before we close with the song.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Honesty is the best policy.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:09

That's been Ruxmalls Overballs. Uh, we'll be back again next week and enjoy the song.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:17

Ruxmalls and overballs in their domain.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:22

Lots of rugby knowledge, but their banter is not a good thing.