S2 Ep 12 - Saints Stumbled, Harlequins Humbled, R360 Crumbled?

A week off and the rugby world refused to sit still. We kick things off with the headlines: R360’s two‑year delay and why the money never looked real, a quietly improving Premiership balance sheet that’s letting clubs hand out deals to 2029, London Irish stirring again, and ITV nabbing England tests for free‑to‑air. Great for reach—so long as the coverage upgrades from remote sofas to real insight on the touchline.

From there, the pitch does the talking. Newcastle’s Red Bulls era already hints at identity: Stephen Jones in, marquee links circling, real endeavour against Leicester—but the Tigers were clinical where it counted. Sale looked set only for Exeter’s bench to reverse the tide, with Jack Yeandle and Scott Sio turning the scrum and Daf Jenkins roaming everywhere. At Kingsholm, Gloucester finally found some rhythm: Redshaw bright, Atkinson and Joseph mean at the gainline, Trenholm a revelation. Quins fought their own selection—Evans at 12 blunted threat, Cunningham‑South under‑used—and kept kicking to a plan that wasn’t working.

Then Bristol arrived with a statement. James Williams and van Rensburg dominated midfield, Marmion ran the show, and Northampton’s rotated backline couldn’t breathe. There’s context—England rest windows, injuries, kids learning on the job—but the Bears suffocated and then sprinted. Saracens vs Bath delivered the lesson of the month: Bath’s pack looks inevitable. Miles Reid swiped turnovers for fun, the maul mauled, and their back‑row pace stretches teams in ways that feel unfair. Arundell reminded everyone why pace terrifies defences; Caluori won plenty in the air and needs more ball elsewhere to keep growing.

We close with Europe on the horizon—Bath and Saints well‑placed if they get bodies back, Exeter’s squeeze built for knockout rugby, and Bristol a nightmare when they control chaos—plus the Wales vs South Africa flashpoint and a hard line on discipline. In the PWR, Gloucester‑Hartpury surge on, Saracens warm into form, and we tip our hats to Abby Dow’s outstanding career and the choices the women’s game still demands.

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Transcript

Back From A Break, Setting The Agenda

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Rux, Malls, and Old Malls. That's right. We haven't disappeared. We only took one week off. And we're back with some more rugby nonsense. It's me, Dave, talking rugby nonsense, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hello, hello listener. Welcome back. Welcome back, David, from your avalanche of work from the civil service last week. They must have asked you to do three things.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, I if only, if only it was three things, it was at least four. Yes, it's been a very, very busy time for me outside of um rugby content podcasting creation. Uh therefore it has had to take a little bit of a step back on my priority list, sadly. Because unfortunately, Rory, as much as it uh pains me, this is the part of my life that doesn't pay the bills. Um whereas the other half, which has kind of taken priority, is the important bit around that side of things. Uh so yes, I do apologize to any listener. Uh I know we have some keen listeners who are particularly disappointed, uh specifically the creative director. I got a lambasting from the creative director to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Uh you got off you got it from with both barrels, a full shellacking.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

A full shellacking from the creative director. So I I think I'm on my final written warning um from the uh the leadership groups behind the scenes. Uh so yeah, I must do better. But unfortunately, life does sometimes get in the way, Rory, and uh can at times be unavoidable, and and is a very large part as to why um the uh the Ruxmalls overballs socials have been a little less active in these recent weeks because it's uh it's been a uh a month-long busy period, but December's looking a lot better, so hopefully we can get back into rhythm, back into the swing of things and get back on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

And to to slightly take uh the pressure off David on this one, uh this is I do next to nothing to help with him with the burden of socials, so uh or editing or anything of that sort of technical nature. So um yes, uh it really does rely on him having the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

It's a very comfortable 95-5 split in terms of effort put towards the podcast. So, but that's fine because Rory's five is a very important five. Uh last five percent is the big one. It's the big one, it's it's what sets us apart from everyone else. Uh, but how are you, Rory? Obviously, it's been two weeks uh since we've uh conversed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Well, well, um sadly, no uh no Lions games to to report on. The last two have been uh cancelled before the fixtures could be could take place. Unfortunately, other clubs are struggling to get teams together, which is uh sad state of affairs for for Lions rugby in South East Essex. Um I don't judge. We've we've been there ourselves. Um we're we're in a slightly better position than we have been in for a few years, but we're not uh we're not completely immune to to the uh the roller coaster that is available uh players. Uh so I sympathise with other clubs, but it has meant that we haven't had a game for a couple of weeks. Should hopefully have one this week against Wanted, which we will look forward to. Um so in the meantime, Sans Games, catching up and watching a bit of rugby. That's always nice. I'm trying to get myself in some uh some nick again to get myself through the Christmas period because that turkeys are coming.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Turkey is a coming, and uh it's a very important time for a prop or a forwards kind of physique. It's uh it's the bulk bulk. It's bulking time. Uh so yeah, one stead, you better turn up because Rory needs some uh some cardio in him uh in order to justify that turkey and uh sure does. Well, and also the the lions they need some game time because they're they're ready to rearring.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Absolutely. And you David, has it just been work, work, work, work, work?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

It has been work, work, work, work, work. Um unfortunately it really hasn't been uh much more exciting than that. Obviously, I've been able to watch the rugby in between. Um but it's uh it's been a little bit non-stop. Uh I definitely feel like I'm getting I've got a little bit greyer in November, and it's not just because of the cold weather. Um but hey, that's the life I that's the life I've chosen. Uh but if the listeners do want to tell everyone they know so the podcast could eventually start paying the bills, hey, I'm all for it. Yeah, bring a mate. Yeah, bring the mate to listen. Bring a friend, uh help a lot of it. Get us download, subscribe. Uh yeah, download, subscribe, and uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Otherwise, David starting the OnlyFans.

Rugby News Roundup: R360 Delayed

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Maybe a Ruxaballs Overball's Patreon isn't the worst idea. Uh, but maybe maybe that's like for 2029. I don't know. But Rory, we've got a podcast to stumble through. We'll start off with a little bit of news. We'll start then rolling through the Prem fixtures that took place this weekend because it kind of did its uh little cameo between the Autumn Nations Cup and Champions Cups. We got a little taster of Prem Rugby, and then we'll touch on uh maybe what happened in the Principality and the Put around off. Does that sound like a plan to you, Rory? Let's get into it. Okay, first up, news time and breaking excellent news, Rory. The R360 is falling apart in front of our eyes. Yay!

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Who could have predicted this?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I know, it's so surprising.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Um in the interest of accuracy, it has only been delayed by two years. Um so Mike Tyndall says they're very much still planning to go ahead. Uh, there's nothing to be uh to worried about. They they just felt that their timelines were too tight, um, which no one pointed out when they first said they wanted to get started next year.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

It's the HS2 of rugby.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

It's yes, yeah, yeah, without the um the potential economic improvement um for anyone other than Mike Tyndall. Yeah, exactly. Uh yes, it's it's obviously falling apart, it's obviously not happening, and uh we all saw it coming, and it's um it's a delightful shard and Freud, I think, for all of us to uh to watch this um obvious cash grab run out of steam.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Does it is it me or is there quite an obvious move that's been put out here by some of the clubs as well that every contract I've seen re-signed recently has been until 2029. Um it that feels deliberate that they're announcing that on purpose as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Well, part I think that I think it's probably a bit of that. I think there's also um, you know, we we did speak about this a few weeks ago. There are some really positive economic signs coming out of the Prem. Uh the RFU recently announced very, very strong uh revenue figures, they're second highest ever, uh only below the 2015 World Cup, which obviously hosted.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Um you'd expect that to be your your record, yeah. But this actually wasn't too far off that despite um despite uh no men's world cup, obviously the women's world cup, um which would play a part, but it won't it won't have actually um made huge revenues in comparison, just the rest the the ticket pricings weren't weren't um the same.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Um but obviously it's you know an important part of it, but Rory has just had his doorbell go or an alarm go, so he's had to stop mid-story. This is interesting. This is Rory's turn to have something delivered to his front door. I wonder what it is. I really, really hope it's a box of some sort of uh caviar or no, it's the it's the it's the neighbor just um pressing the wrong button on his way in.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Oh, that's a bit less exciting.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Carry on. You you were at butt.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yes. Um but the I think the key the key point is that I think clubs are feeling more confident signing players for for longer terms. I think there's there's reports of three clubs breaking even this season, um, which based on based on the most recent revenues that we've seen, I would assume would be Gloucester, Northampton, Leicester, but who knows?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, I saw so that Northampton did release theirs. I don't think I think there was a small loss, but it was down to basically due to asset depreciation. Like they're sitting on quite good cash reserve, like all that stuff, like the stuff that you actually need to focus on financially have gone up, but like the headline figure that probably Mike Tyndall and James Haskell would point out is that it's still counting as a loss, but it's because of stuff that you have to do accounting-wise, it's not actually business.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah, so I think that was at the end of last season, right? When when most revenue figures were were previously released. Um the trend looks like that at least three will break even over the course of this season, um, which um is great news, you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Obviously, not 30% every movie doesn't lose money. That's good news. That is good news of where we have been.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

You know, and there's other good news, you know, London Irish uh back on uh back in the agenda. They're they're making uh noise on social media, they're looking to relaunch next year.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, very interest, very interestingly quiet about the competition. I'm finding that quite interesting where they're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, I think it feels like a power play from somewhere. My my assumption is they'll be in the championship, but um yeah, that's obviously not been been totally confirmed yet. Yeah. Um, so yeah, all that being said, I think there's a bit more confidence about where the game in England certainly is going, and therefore clubs are feeling feeling happy to sign players on a on longer terms.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Um absolutely. So, yeah, unfortunately R360, as predicted, more or less dead in the water, as far as I'm concerned. Um, but I'm sure we'll hear about it again in a couple of years' time. They'll probably go lick their wounds, come back maybe with a different name, and uh trying to get it.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Well, they I mean the big the big rumour is that the finances the financiers behind it have um have been scared, they've been they've been frightened off by it.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

So um it may come back in two years' time, they may be able to secure new sponsors, but well, and it's post-World Cup, so you get some of like the mid-30 year olds who've had their final World Cup and now they'll go for their final kind of big contract, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Maybe that's the thinking, but that's that's not the that's not the competition they've built as a you know, a dad's army of yeah. That's not a successful model.

Prem Finances, Contracts, And London Irish

SPEAKER_00 10:20

It's not a successful model, so we'll see. Uh on a similar positive line around Prem Rugby's financial kind of fortunes, are we starting to see a little bit of the Newcastle Red Bulls flexing their muscles with the reported signing of Hoskins Tatutu, which supposedly, reportedly snapped right under the noses of Saracens and Sale, I think it was. Uh, he was also being linked with basically every other club at the same time, it's obviously well sought after.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Uh yes, gosh, the river to be in. Um, I yeah, I think it's it's interesting news. I think it's it's it's interesting to see that first big marquee sign in for the Red Bulls. Um, that's I think that's an important one. Um, Sale have an ongoing issue with their recruitment, but Thomas has been pretty he's been pretty honest about it, and he's that you know they're reviewing what they're doing, yeah. But he's also been pretty honest about and calling out specific players, namely cunning himself for asking for piss-taking wages. Um makes you wonder what Harlequins have started paying him. Well, yeah, it does, but it also would suggest that maybe them publicising that they've got the budget for four or five world-class players wasn't the best tactical move.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yeah, who do thought Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um that's a hurdle that Newcastle are gonna have to face as well, I imagine. Because anyone who gets approached by them, they're gonna know that they've got the money and they're gonna know they're gonna be pretty determined to get the people they want to sign.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Well, if I if if I were at the Red Bulls and part of this negotiating team, and I I was stressed before I go through this analogy, I have next to no insight or knowledge of how this is done, right? But this is from a from a pure rank amateur perspective.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

It's a very important caveat.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, what I would be saying to these players is from a wage perspective and from a package, we will not go beyond fair market value based on the data and available budgets. Yeah, you know, we're not, you know, I if I wouldn't have got it, I would absolutely avoid setting any kind of precedent uh of overpaying players just because they're Red Bulls. However, I would be presenting a package that included tantalizing support from the Red Bull marketing team on things like image rights and brand deals and self-publicising, you know, the stuff that Red Bulls have been brought. Well, one of the reasons why people are so excited about Red Bulls being involved in rugby and what they can do support. I would be very much pushing that aspect as to what they can do as part of your overall um marketing strategy as an individual player.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, so it's the intangibles of being associated with that monster brand. Oh, wait, not monster, Red Bull brand. Um, uh yeah, it's interesting. I I'm intrigued to see how what happens with the rest of the season. There was there was talk on the Friday night game, which was the Red Bulls game, uh, around this, saying after the 1st of January they can start kind of approaching players out of contract. They get they put a long list of out-of-contract players on on the screen. A lot of them, I have a feeling they're not going to be what they're gonna be after because they they gave them a huge list of like some 30-somethings who are out of contract, big names, but I I think they would want to target like the mid-20s, young 20-year-olds, the ones that are still growing. Um, but it's it'll be interesting to see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Well, I I think what they'll what they'll be trying to define um over the next few months, you know, they is is what type of team they want to be. So they just brought in Stephen Jones as attack coach, which is a really interesting sign-in, right? He has got um some really positive uh references from his time at Marwana Pacifica, where he's just been, and for his you know, other work he's done in in other environments since he's retired, you know, he's a he's a very highly rated, relatively young coach. If they start making these kind of backroom moves and start defining very quickly what type of ambition they have in terms of the type of team to watch, the type of um rugby they want to play and make the the according sign-ins. You know, the like someone like Hoskins Satutu, you know, I've not seen masses of him played in Super Burger, I've seen a little bit. That's not a player you bring in if your goal is to play classic uh Leicester Tigers nine-man rugby. No, that's a player you bring in because you're wanting to play some very a very attractive brand. So I I would be targeting players that that can support that ambition. You know, I'm I was a little surprised they didn't maybe I mean maybe they did, uh didn't go in stronger for Joe Marchant. Feels like the sort of player that they would be targeting, you know, good age profile, very marketable England international, etc. etc. etc. He has he has landed at the other club with deep pockets as well, to be fair. So correct, correct. And there's gonna be a bit of a tug of war for rugby in the north going on, which is gonna be interesting to see it played out. Very interesting. Um those are the sort of players I would expect, and maybe the age profile um will be part of that long-term ambition, but also I think possibly the um it's just gonna be about a stylistic choice as much as anything, you know. Would they sign Courtney Laws who's being ruined uh rumoured to come be coming back towards to England? Possibly, but leave him alone. Uh wouldn't necessarily I don't think it necessarily fits with what you what you want to do, other than maybe having just a big marquee name. But I would think that there are some very exciting Argentinian players I would be targeting, some very exciting Italian players potentially. Um, you know, certainly some some strong players from Australia and South Africa, you'd be talking, particularly now, Australia are looking much more open to overseas selections.

Newcastle Red Bulls: Recruitment And Identity

SPEAKER_00 16:17

So I I think the interesting thing then is they will want to build a really strong squad, but obviously there's there is a requirement there to have I believe there's still a requirement there to have a certain number of EQ P players. There is. I think it's 15 out of the 23 in of a matchday squad.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Uh yeah, which is what they've talked massively about their academy and their links to local universities.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

So like they can fill their squad with all these players, but they are gonna have to figure out how they bring in some of the better English players as well and lure them up north. Uh it'll be interesting. It's gonna be an interesting, interesting time. One will be watching with a keen eye. Moving on to our final bit of news. Um news of for you know, for free-to-wear fans of TV that England internationals are making their way back to ITV after a monster 80 million pound bid stealing them under the noses of TNT Sports. Free to wear fans will be rejoicing at this Rory.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah, I mean, I actually think TNT did pretty well. Well, it's the it's the Prem rugby team, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

It's a good solid rugby team.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

It's a good solid rugby team who did a good job. But it does now mean that effectively all international rugby will be on free-to-wear television next year.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Which is great.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Now, it it's absolutely great, assuming that ITV execute on it. Because with the best wall in the world, the last big ITV event, the World Cup, the production for that was crap.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Yeah, well they already they already have all the England home Six Nations games, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah. Uh but yeah, it's not the best. For me, they need to be getting boots on the ground at stadiums. They they cannot keep going with this remote studio. They gotta change up the lineup, get rid of Clive Woodwards, probably get rid of Johnny Wilkinson. It may sound sacrilegious, but uh I don't want to hear any more about his relationship with the ball when he's dropkicking. Um, I'd like to hear more about how you actually dropkick. Uh, if anyone's seen that clip, it's remarkable in how little information he imparts in five minutes of explaining dropkicks. Um I would I I I would do a complete revamp. If they're gonna invest this kind of money, revamp the whole team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, probably try and get as many of the TNT guys over if you can.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, I can think of two podcast hosts that would be interested, but uh Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, Squidge will be right on that. For the listener, I'm staring at the camera, shaking my head. I wasn't referring to them. Uh but yeah. Should we talk some rugby, Rory? Go on, let's get into it. Let's get into it. Prem Rugby returned, uh, and it returned Friday night with uh two fixtures on a Friday, actually. But let's start off with the Newcastle Red Bulls, because we've spoken about them a fair bit already, up against the Leicester Tigers. Now, I watched this one quite closely and I was interested, I was interested to see how this one would go because obviously Newcastle weren't heavily impacted by international call-ups over the autumn period. Uh they'd had a hot and cold Prem Cup run during this time. Uh I was intrigued how that'd go faring up against the Tigers who would have had a bit more disruption. Would it be fair to say strong signs of improvement performance-wise? From my perspective, as someone watching this game, and I was watching this with my partner, who would admittedly say not the biggest rugby fan, but but she said, I think if I was to take it word for word, like I've not been watching this that closely, but every time I've looked up, it looks like that Newcastle team has been the better team. And I was like, You're not wrong? Because they had most of the ball, they were playing most of the rugby. The only difference was every time Leicester got into the 22 they scored. And they were very, very clinical, which is kind of what been their brand has been this season.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, so it's I mean, you know, that that ruthless edge is still eluded Newcastle, and to be honest, that's the um that's that's gonna be the thing that these sign-ins hopefully bring them, right? Because they you there's been a few games when you can question their endeavour and their um their efforts in some games. I think I think we've watched a few games where we've thought actually that's just quite poor. But by and large, you can guarantee that they they do get stuck into matches, but that being said, um effort's not necessarily always enough in this league. Um and and other teams will bring effort, you know. The Tigers team do bring effort.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Oh, oh, for sure. Uh so when I was saying that, I wouldn't say Leicester were bad, it's just I think Newcastle were better than the scoreline suggested. And I would also say with the Newcastle back row they put out, which was Lockwood, Tom Christie's first game in the Prem, and Maffe, there's something there for them to build around uh because each one of them were impressive in their own way. Uh and you know what you get with Maffee. Lockwood looked really good in the six shirt, I thought, and Christie just was tackling everything that moved. I think I think he maybe got a little bit of uh eye-opening experience at the breakdown because it wasn't it wasn't easy to get any steals. You could see that he was really struggling to kind of time that right, maybe with the Prem's cadence with referees. Like there's gonna be differences to that and kind of what he's used to. Yeah, it's not super rugby, is it? It's not super rugby. So you that takes me getting used to, but I can see he will become an absolute pest once he figures that out. Yeah, Oscar Usher again continues to impress me.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Uh he's he's definitely one I I'm really keen to watch how he develops over the next couple of years because he's you can tell he's not filled out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

I think he's he's got to be on that list of names that they're like, okay, we we need to build around him an academy product. Uh really useful having someone like that in the engine room. And I think he's got still plenty of room to grow, but you can just see he's got that um that mentality where he just wants to fight for the extra yard, a bit of a tackles hard, brilliant. Like it's what you want for a northern rugby team, basically.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, yeah, I can see I can totally see that. Um yeah, interesting. Tom Christie did an interview recently where he said getting Newcastle back to the or up to the top of the prom would be a bigger achievement than than the all blacks cap, which um is obviously just good PR good PR management from his point. But it's you know it's an interesting sentiment for for a player like that. And actually, I think that's something that they'll be that's an attitude they'll be looking to build on, right? Um, and and that's a that's that's what they'll be looking for from from Preyers they bring in. Um obviously the crews coming back in at nine, I think he played in the second half, didn't he?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Um and he made a marked difference as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Um those bits where you they do have extra quality, they they've really got to capitalise on them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Um one thing I will say about the game in general was it wasn't the best of games. There was way too many wayward box kicks from both teams. I think both Tom Whiteley and Sam Stewart um kicking the ball away far too much. It almost felt like a there's there's been but it's not this game specifically. I mentioned that in a few other games that there's there's almost been like a bit of a a determination to really make the aerial game a real fundamental fundamental part of each team's game plan, and they they all seem to lean on it way too much, from my opinion, uh, in all these games. Because there's a number of kicks in these games was huge, and it's not just this game, it is others, but this game particular, it felt like there was a lot of kick chase.

Free-To-Air England Tests And TV Coverage

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah, well, I think you know, I think every team would like to think they're they've they try and take a very innovative approach to um to how they play the game or a very independent approach how they play the game, but by and large, most teams, like the vast majority of teams in every country at every level, right up and international, follow trends rather than set them. Very few countries really set the trends, yeah. And at the moment, the trend is the aerial battle, um, that and that being where where the competition is. So everyone's probably trying to do it at the moment, and actually, maybe the team that either executes best will will win, or maybe it'll be the team that balances slightly away from the aerial battle and exploits um exploits a passing game, which you know maybe a team like Bristol would would be more likely to do, but even they pre-kicked more than they normally would, but we'll talk about that later. Um, but you know, I think let's let's be as you're you know, teams are following a trend that they've seen over the Awesome Internationals, and Tigers were without were without their first choice nine and first choice ten in this game. Maybe that's just gonna lead you to a poorer kicking battle because you just you haven't got the same quality of players executing.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yeah, and I think that's what we didn't see the best of the likes of Radwan. I'd really hoped he was gonna get a moment because he looked really up for the game in the first opening minutes. He he seemed like he was really trying to make a point, he just didn't get the ball. I think he had like one one moment where he was able to guess. I think it was Benitas Cruz, uh, but you know, that that was it for him. Hassel Collins had a couple of nice runs, but the ball rarely got in their hands. Uh again, that may be down to it being like the second choice scrum half. But I th I thought Billy Searle had a good game, I thought. And I think the criminal thing with uh with Prem Rugby's TV at this moment was um the fact that they didn't give a name check to Joaquin Morrow to be player of the match where for me stand up by a long way. Him and Tommy Rafael were incredible.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, he looks a really, really interesting prospect because he's quite under the radar kind of signing from the Argentinian leagues, I think, wasn't it? And he's quite he's a young lad. Yeah, um, a part of a good cohort of young Argentinian players dotted around the league, you know, Elizards, the Grandonas, um, the two props down at uh down at Quinn's. Yeah. You know, there's some there's some interesting players knocking about that Morrow looks the latest in a long line of extremely good Argentinian back rowers.

Match One: Newcastle vs Leicester Analysis

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He he was he was one of those players that he seemed to he picked the line and timed it perfectly, and he hit the line in full acceleration, and that's how he got both his tries basically, is just running really smart lines off tackles. Uh, and it's the sort of thing that you you just well, you used to see it off like the likes of Chris Ashton coming off the wing. If you've got a number eight who's able to do that, and he's got a bit of wheels to him as well, resolve one. Like the only question mark for him would be how he does in the tight stuff. But you know, with with the Leicester pack, he's got plenty of people that can kind of lift that weight a little bit. Uh you can't expect him to be a like for like replacement for say Jasper Visa, but he certainly has something a bit special about himself that you can kind of think, okay, he's not an absolute bulldozer, but he may be a bit of a bit of a Lamborghini.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Um so the question is whether Parling and Leicester as an institution would pick him over, say, a more sensible, solid option like Krakenall. And that's the the difficulty as a a more flair-like player at Tigers is whether you'll be given the licence to actually play or even get on the pitch in the first place. So that's that remains to be seen. But he looks he looks like a player to the manor born from my eyes.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Absolutely. Uh so yeah, uh, but ultimately, like the the game did end kind of inevitably with uh a Leicester Tigers win. Um but like I said, I do think Newcastle were much better than the score suggested. Yeah. Uh I we it's still that that question mark of will Newcastle although I say they're looking better, will they find that anevitable win? I I don't know because I I think and I'll touch on it in other games, I think this may have been a golden opportunity to pounce when they've they've had their squad together for all month being able to work and aim towards this fixture. Uh whereas Leicester will have been disrupted quite a bit through international call-ups. Yeah. So I think that may account for Leicester maybe not looking quite as on song as they would normally. Uh but you know, they were they were still able to do enough to beat this Newcastle team. I just I just worry whether Newcastle will get that elusive win. But you know, that's uh that's for Mr. Dickens to figure out. Um they don't seem to be worried about or Mr. Townsend, of course, yes. They don't seem to be overly worried. I think they're they seem to be quite realistic. It's like with Tom Christie was saying, like I think he is realistic about what he is coming into, and that they aren't going to be winning from day one.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

I think you have to approach it with your eyes open at this point, don't you? You know, there's lofty ambitions, but you know, they are where they are for a reason. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Uh anything else from you, Rory, on the Newcastle Leicester game?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

No, I think the the only other thing to to highlight from it is that Freddie Stewart is continuing some really excellent form at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

He did drop an absolute dolly uh in the first half, which was a little bit criminal, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Well, you catch everything in Newcastle in the windswept wildland.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

I don't know. Um I did find a bit funny that the the commentators, which I think was Ben Heal Ben Healy, Austin Healy and Ben Kay, were raving about Freddie Stewart's performance. Like it was a good performance. Uh, but I didn't think it was his best performance, I didn't think it was warranting the player of the match that he got.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Um, I think it's his consistency, though, his broad consistency. And also, you know, talk about that ruthless edge. At the Freddie Stewart is one of the most ruthless finishers in the league because he's got that size and he picks a good line. Um, you know, and he's got once he's up to speed, he is quick. You know, he's not just accelerating.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Oh, yeah. We've said before that he does come across as someone who's really worked on that speed, and I think we we can see that. And like I said, I'm not denying he had a good game, I'm not denying that at all. It's just I did find it a little bit frustrating that for me there was a glaringly obvious player of the match who was head and shoulders with everyone else, and they just seemed so hell bent on giving it to Freddie Stewart because you know he's a Leicester, he's a Leicester product, maybe, you know, Austin Healy Ben came. Are Leicester boys, they want to back the English Leicester boys, don't they? I was like, like, come on, let's let's reward people for actually having really, really good games, rather than the household England player names, just because you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

And this is this is how you lose TV rights, TNT.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, ITV wouldn't do that. ITV wouldn't make that mistake, I'm sure. Uh but before I get cancelled by ITV or TNT or whatever, uh the game ended 39-17 to Leicester. Bonus point win for Leicester, away from home. Can't can't ask for more than that. Uh but like I said, I think Newcastle were better for what that score shows. Uh the other game that was taking place on Friday night. The Sail Sharks versus the Exter Chiefs. And uh something we've kind of been pointing towards over the last few rounds is um our X good now.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Well it was a weird game, I thought. Um it was uh a lot of penalties exchanged for for uh a long time in the first half, so I think it was 9-6 at one point. Um not a huge amount of quality in the in the game. No, George Ford sort of pulling the strings as he is wont to do, Chiefs discipline pretty poor, but then sharks kind of not really taking advantage of territory, coughing up the ball and coughing up territory, and then ultimately coughing up points. Um Tom Curry just bullying Josh Hodge, bullying him, shameful.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, how treating him like an Argentinian coach. Such a bully that Tom Curry. I know, I know. It's such a shame we weren't able to talk about that last week. Yeah, it was a it was a very measured discourse that I saw around it. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Um, but you know, I shape sharks were pretty profligate, and actually for the whole game were that despite they did score a couple of really nice tries. So Luke James's trial was about 25 minutes, class line, that an absolutely class running line off Rob De Prier. Um absolutely halved through them. Um and they had a couple of good moments throughout the first half. Scored the second one quite early on in the second half. Alex Wills, not a player I'm hugely familiar with, one I'm sure that you've seen.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah, so he's one of the under-twenties from season before last. So kind of in in the group of under-twenties where it was all kind of about Henry Pollock. Uh but he was one I'd spoke about quite a few times because he he is really good under the high ball. He's he's he's got a good size to him. Umce to him. So I think he fits the mould of what the modern day winger is now. And I think he should be. Yeah, quite a similar dap to Roebuck to my eyes. Yeah, ideal. Ideal to have him to step in when Roebuck's not available.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Yeah, and at that point, um Sailor kind of cruising without having played very well, it was 26-6 at that point. And Chiefs coughed up a lot of positions at the Chiefs were stronger at the scrum, they'd already seen off Ashra Poker for Jorge got injured in the first scrum in the first minute. Yeah, um, and uh the lad who came on uh Harper struggled quite a bit, but yeah, it was it was a game of very low quality, barring a couple of nice moments up to that point.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

It was it was quite a poor game, I thought.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, um, and then for the last half hour, Chiefs really turned it on. Um, they'd I think they'd they had to a certain extent softened up Sao a bit by that point, just from a bit of size. But actually, once uh Jack Yendl and Scott Scottis CO came on with about half hour to go, the game really changed. So Yendel obviously getting that first try. Um, just doing what Jack Yendel does, fundamentals really well, powering over uh from close range, just taking the opportunity as he sees it in front of him. Um, and then Woodburn scores about six or seven minutes later after Daft Jenkins collects a uh bouncing. What game he had, by the way. Yeah, really impressive from Daft Jenkins, who I think is getting back to the kind of form that saw him named as such a promising look in his early career. Um he's getting back to Gentha form. Probably how to have been next to the young lad in in Zamboni who's got real real quality. Um but yeah, Jake. So Jenkins makes it a break, kind of misses the misses the opportunity to put Woodburn in originally, um, and then off the next phase gets a pass, pop off Charlie Chapman, who then and then pops it off to Woodburn to finish in the corner. Um so nice little finish. And then um George Ford gets subbed off that, and that felt like a big error. Wrong, wrong choice made there, I felt. I thought so, because Sale never recovered control of the game after that. And when you're losing control, you know, you have to turn to George Ford.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Um, yeah, they took off Gus War and George Ford, and that's your two most controlling elements in that sales pod. Um, as much as I like Rafi Quirk, and I think you know Marislova's got some real potential in that in that centre shirt, and Robert DePar is a very good 10 in his own right. They I think that was an error from their point of view to make those.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

I don't wonder if they were pre-planned, you don't know, but um well it felt like it cemented the momentum swing over to Exeter. And I felt after that, I think what they did was they quite smartly they just kind of bullied O'Flaty with Woodburn in the air. The amount of box kicks they just pinged on O'Flatte with Woodburn, who is probably a solid foot taller than him, it just felt almost unfair. And it just it it just kind of felt like a bit of like an inevitable wave, and then that that final few minutes where Exeter just had to close it out, and it was just inevitable, like Sale just did not have an answer to the Exeter pack. You could see Tom Curry was trying to figure out a way to penetrate that and get through to him. It was just a done deal. I think I think Exeter executed the perfect arm wrestle recovery, and maybe it is with their own version of the bomb squad, like you say, bringing Yendel and Scott Seo off the bench. That did kind of seem to be the impetus.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

I mean, I think I think that made the you know, and Chimbassy had a great game as well. Yeah, he did, he did. Um, and actually, Chief Scrum seems to have really turned the corner from last year where it was really poor, where I think their theory of picking massive front rowers has obviously been boosted by Joseph Dweber, who's another massive front rower. Yeah, but it seems to be making some actual inroads now. Their scrum was much better than certain. It's not a weak sales scrum, you know. Simon McIntyre, Luke Kowendicki, Ashra Poca Vore. That's a very good prime level scrum. And he's kind of had them on toast most of the game.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Well, um you could you see the signs of that is that they were not willing to take Simon McIntyre off to bring on the young Ana Sanya because they knew he would be absolutely demolished, and that's no good for a young prop's development.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yeah, absolutely. I mean they're they're missing Bevanrod, that's obvious. Um, but I think we have to talk about the fact that Sale have only got two wins in six.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Massively, massively underperforming, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Hugely underperforming at this point. And I know they've got injuries, but we're the best one in the world. I you know, it's hard to have that much sympathy for any any club with injuries given the injury crisis that's gone across the league, realistically. Um, lots of us have injuries.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Sale is a is a wealthy team that's made a lot of good sign-ins and just really underperforming at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Um so I I don't want to sound like I'm setting up an excuse for a fixture we might be talking about in a little while. But do you think the teams who have England fly halves are specifically disadvantaged in these international window prem games that are squeezed in because they've been away with their away from their club, their back lines have been playing without them, they've had to then step in. A team like Sale playing Exeter, who haven't again lost many players to Autumn International,'s been able to focus on this fixture for four weeks. I think you can see that maybe there is some sort of pattern here that the the clubs that give away the most influential players to their national teams struggle in these fixtures when they come back from the autumn nations period, and there's no reason I'm drawing attention to that at all, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

No, no, no, no. I mean, look, it's an interesting point.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

No one could have foreseen you uh setting up this kind of uh this is a Marcus Smith, Finn Smith, all on the receiving ends of losses.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Well, my counter to that my counter to that would be, David, is the reason these fly halves are elected by international teams is because of their quality and their ability to uh form in these kind of situations and pull these back lines together. Um, actually, George Ford, by and large, did a pretty good job of putting the strings on this one. It's actually really the players around him that that were um that let him down on this one. And I know this sounds like it's me just staying on the George Ford pipe trait.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

And it does sound like that. Yeah, it does sound a bit like that.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Um there was a lot of inexplicable ball losses out from the sharks team that didn't have much to do with with George Ford, by and large. Um yeah, yeah. I I I don't I don't have much sympathy with with uh with that excuse, if I'm honest, David.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Well you wouldn't as a Gloucester fan, would you? Let's face it.

Match Two: Sale vs Exeter Turnaround

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Well, I think you'll find that we have a lot of Welsh internationals, and uh if you can find a higher level of quality than that, then uh I'd like to hear it. Um look, the the reality is you know, yes, to to maybe the odd fixture, there's a slight advantage, you know. This this week you could maybe make that case that there's an advantage to the player to teams that had less international players.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

But the only reason I draw focus to it is because I think each of those teams were playing maybe barring Quinn's Gloucester, they were playing opponents where they have there was very little disruption. So I th I just wonder if it just emphasised slight disadvantage because Bristol didn't have a lot of disadvantages. I don't want to get drawn into the Saints game too early, but like it's gonna be basically my point later on. Bristol weren't very disadvantaged by the Autumn Nations, Exeter weren't overly disadvantaged by the Autumn Nations. Quinn's you look at the team like not so much. Like that's my that's my that's my thinking.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Just to slightly challenge that, David. So in that extra Chiefs lineup, uh Josh Hodge, England A. Faboso, England, England national team, Henry Slade, England national team, Leonicatel, Australian national team. Uh Daf Jenkins, Welsh national team, Zamboni, Italian national team, Tom Hooper, Australian national team, Tham Roots, England A, Greg Fizzelau, England A. Um, so of that starting lineup, eight were away. Uh no, nine, sorry, were away in some form of international environment.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

And then once they all got subbed off, that's when Exeter started winning. Well, basically, Rory, it's my main point for the Bristol game because most of them didn't go anywhere, and that's why they smashed us, alright?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah, sure. Well, we might have to go through the go through those squads to get as well, because there's some other issues with the Bristol squad that you you're you're not really um taking into account in the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

But let's not get distracted. So Sharks versus Chiefs, world and Exeter. You look like you're onto something this season. Um Austin Healy seemed absolutely adamant that you're going to be in the top four form. Hard to argue with it.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Uh yeah, we'll see where it is at the end of the season, but it's it's definitely a possibility. But I'd I that's not something I would be betting on immediately.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

All I say is that we we were calling it from the start of the season that you you the extra chiefs were going to be better this year than they were last year. And I think we've been once again been proven correct, um, which is nothing nothing less than what we deserve, Rory, as being the oracles of rugby.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

We're nothing if not a prophetic pod.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Exactly. Prophetic and honest.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

We're prophetic and honest. We make predictions that we don't lie.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Yeah. But this game ended 26-27 to Exeter Chiefs. So well done. Exeter. Next game, Rory. One I'm sure you're keen to talk about, and let's try and keep our eye on the clock. Gloucester versus Harlequins. And about time, Rory can finally talk on the podcast in this season with a bit of positivity and optimism.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's coming home. First win of the Prem season for Gloss. Um a game of two um okay, I'll be slightly honest. A game of two quite low quality teams if film being completely brutal about this.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Agreed, agreed. Uh again, a lot of kicking, a lot of kicking in this game.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Um a lot of kicking in this game, and actually, to be fair, mostly from Harlequins. Mostly from Harlequins, and also kicking from Gloucester that I'm not that unhappy with because it's a slight shift away from the somewhat daft approach we've taken at points this season where we've been running into brick walls in our own half and losing the ball and giving away possession. Yeah. I'm okay with us taking a slightly more conservative approach at the moment, particularly whilst we're in this kind of funk. Yeah, correct. Um but to be fair as well, some real quality show-ins from some players uh on the Gloucester team. Um, I thought Ben Redshaw, his first start for Gloucester at fullback, absolutely highlighting why he's such a highly rated uh young talent. Uh his try in particular, um, just his first try in particular, a phenomenal finish. If everyone's not seen it, he gasses uh China Cunningham South and runs through, I think, four or five defenders to score under the sticks. Um, a really uh a really good finish and exciting for us to have someone at fullback again who can do something on those lines, obviously, having lost Santi over the summer. Um, Will Joseph continue in some frighteningly good early season form. He is dangerous and he is electric. Um really enjoying him at the club. And he's been getting around some of the uh the publications, getting some getting some column inches. Um feels like a player that's re-establishing himself as a as a proper young talent. So definitely want to keep an eye on because the way he's playing is certainly comparable with some other very well-rated talents in England centres.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Should we pause on that right? I I just want to say the England centre depth has all of a sudden gone mental. Will Joseph being part of that? Uh so I am all for that. And Gloucester, particularly being the home of Atkinson and Joseph. Well done, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

You've got a club that is a solid brilliant. Sebak is it back from injury, and yeah, again, really good performance. Actually, having him back taking a bit of the pressure off Ross Byrne with his playmaking abilities and just his physical size, just being able to carry through traffic, just seemed to take just ease a bit of pressure off Ross Byrne, who probably had his best performance, which wasn't brilliant. Still, it's still not great. I'm still not thrilled about the way he's performing. And if I'm being completely honest, I'd like to see Charlie Atkinson or George Barton given that shirt for a bit because I don't think we're getting money, you know, value for money out of Ross Byrne at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

But yeah, I'd I'd agree on that one. I think he's probably been the more underwhelming side we've seen.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

But it was an improvement. Um a very nice left uh 20-yard left-handed pass for Brad Metro's second try. Very true, very true. So he's still still showing some signs of quality, and he does kick his goals by and large. So well, I'm I'm okay with um I'm okay with this week's performance at least.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Okay, not convinced long term. Yeah, he is a 70% kicker, so not that not the not kicking that many goals, but I'm gonna keep quiet about that one because I know Fix. Yeah, okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Let's give me the stats, one don't you? Um and then in the in the pack, Will Trenome, probably quite a low-key sign-in over the summer from Quinn's, hugely impressive, great, genuinely brilliant performance. Um, he's didn't get didn't get much opportunity at Quinn's, but I think had a couple of prem appearances. He had some time with the England Sevens set up, um, but uh sort of came out of nowhere over the Prem Rugby Cup, um, which you never really know what kind of marker that is going to be for a for a fringe player as to whether that actually means they're going to be able to kick on into the prem season. But in this game in particular, he uh he was superb carrying through traffic, very mobile, very physical in defence, absolutely slotted Caden Murley at one point, um, which led to uh Seb Blake's superb 50-22. If anyone's if you haven't seen that, it's phenomenal. This weekend there's been some lovely front row kicking. There's been some lovely bits and pieces from front rowers. Um, possibly said blake, maybe the best of the lot, but you know who am I to who am I to say that? Um still, but still, you know, there's still massive problems with Gloucester's, right? The the line out is still abysmal. I don't know what's going on there. Um it's still it's still really, really poor. Um we still look very vulnerable defending in our red zone. The two Quince tries were pretty easy for them to take. You know, they basically had two opportunities and took them took took took two tries out of it.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Um, so we we were pr we were definitely uh guilty of not taking advantage of some of our early possession and territory um and giving up the lead. But if we're being honest, in terms of who which team should feel more guilty about their performance, uh it's not Gloucester on this occasion for once.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

No uh Quinn's not a good performance from them, I'd say. Considering there was lots of positive noise going in because they had a number of key like future players re-sign new contracts. I think Cunningham South, Oscar Beard, Ben Waghorn. So lots of positive noise going into it, making you think, oh, the squad's in a good place. There are still some underlying problems that I cannot put my finger on as to why it's not. I can't I can't really see what it is. So I've got a theory, I've I've got a specific theory around Cunningham South. I think he's on a he's uh he's he's in a sticky situation because what makes him such a great player is his abrasive carrying and kind of a physicality that is unrelenting. When Alex Dornbrand is on the pitch in an eight-shirt, Cunningham South's not asked to do any of that heavy lifting, heavy carrying, doing the running back from kickoffs, doing the picking and going for the back of scrums. So you don't get to see that from him. And when he's in the six shirt, he's kind of left to do the unseen work, so you don't see the best of him. I just I just feel like that may be replicated with other I just feel like they're not getting the best out of the players they've got, and I don't know why they aren't figuring out a way to bring out the best of them, and they seem so carry- Oh yeah, I was gonna go on to another player. Carry on.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Well, I think what I think you've I think you've stumbled across the the crux of the point here, which is the selection seems weird. Um, Cunningham South's a really good example of that, right? Now I'm not saying that you should necessarily not pick Alex Donbrand to start O'Gunston, he's you know, I think he's the club captain this year. He's obviously a stalwart player for that quintet. But Cunningham South is marquee signing that you've just re-signed, and you'll not utilise him in the in the game. There's definitely something wrong there. You pick Jared Evans at 12, who is a pivot 10. If we're being for you know, he's not a running threat 10, he's not a physical 10, he's a pivot 10. He's a very good pivot 10. I'm not taking anything away from what he does as a fly half, but he's not a um a dynamic running threat like the same way Mocha Smith is, he's not a physical threat like Finn Smith is. Yeah, you know, it putting him at 12. I don't understand that when you have Northmore on the bench and you could have started Northmore at Beard, which is a much more potent centre partnership than Evans and Beard, because Beard was good and they took Beard off for Northmore, and I just don't understand that. Um when Northmore is perfectly capable of playing 12, and you've suddenly got two very physical, fast, exciting centres there that you could pick. I don't understand that selection. Um, I don't understand starting Lamasatelli. I'm sorry, I he's just not good enough, just not good enough. Yeah, last 20 minutes, he's not fit enough, he's he doesn't offer enough around the pitch. He was he was launching himself at tackles where he was just hitting thin air all over the pitch until he injured. Yeah, look, I get it, but you know, we're no one's paying us to play for Harlequins yet. Not yet. Um Guido Petty and Kenningham on the bench. You know Gloucester are weak at the or have been weak at the at the breakdown this season. Why would you not pick Kenningham? Why would you not have your jewel Jacklin threats? Because that when we played Quinn's at Twickenham towards the end of last season, Kenningham and Evans absolutely battered us at the breakdown. And we had a uh a player on Prem Debut at six in in Dayong, who was I thought was very good, but you know, best one in the world. I think Kenningham could have bullied him if he wanted.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Um, so for me, real questions have to be asked, and I know are being asked by Quinn's fans of the coaching stuff because that selection doesn't seem to make sense. I don't know what they're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Well, I th I I think it goes beyond selection as well. I think it's game plan. I th I think when I was doing the stats, I think Will Porter, not Will Porter, sorry. Scrum half whose name has escaped me all of a sudden. Oh, it's Will Porter, isn't it? Yeah, it's for some reason I thought it was someone else. Will Porter, he only passed the ball, I think it was like 30 times. That tells you how often they're kicking. And they seem to be so hell-bent on this idea that Rodrigo Iskro is this absolute thing in the air that it recovers everything. He lost possession of that ball more than he gained it. He knocked it on most of the time. Yeah. So I get the game plan. In some games that may work, and Iskro is a good player in the air, but if it's not working, it's that it's what we spoke about in England last year. It's that not having that plan B, and they seem to say that.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah, they're not pivoting.

Match Three: Gloucester’s First Win Over Quins

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah. They're not changing the game plan. And I th I think maybe they're too much stuck to a playbook. Maybe that's part of the problem as well. So we've got players being picked in odd positions with odd selections, and a playbook that is maybe being absolutely drilled into them that they can't move away from, which means when things aren't working, the players don't know how to act naturally because they're playing in a weird selection and there isn't there isn't flexibility in the game plan to do something different if it's not working. I th I think obviously I'm not a DOR, I'm not a coach, I'm I've said many times, we are just amateur people from watching off from a sofa. Yeah. But if I was to put my finger on something, I think those are the things that are going wrong for Harlequins.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Yeah, I think I think you've I think you've hit the nail on the head. Um, you know, that someone's put the the league's great entertainers in a box, and they're they're not they're not fulfilling what is obviously the potential of this squad. Um I mean Rajuk Rasco uh he's he's probably in in in Ollie Thorley, and I realize Ollie Thorley's got is every chance that he you know he breaks before he finishes the game, any game he plays, but in Ollie Thorley, you've got one of the wingers who can absolutely match Iskrow's physicality and speed and probably aerial ability because he's just got that jumping power. Yeah, yeah. Thorley had a great game, I'd say, as well. Yeah, he's phenomenal, yeah, absolutely phenomenal. Just shows shows what he brings when you can get him on the pitch. Yeah, you know, I don't think it's a surprise that Iskro went off after 55 minutes for Nick David, who you know didn't really get a chance to turn the tide because Ollie Thorley then ran over him for um for his try.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Um yeah, but ultimately with Quinn's, I think they just rely on a bit of magic from Marcus Smith, and when it doesn't work, and like the Gloucester centres, Atkinson and Joseph, he didn't have the space. Uh I wonder if that's why they choose Jared Evans at 12 to try and you know buy him a bit of space so Smith can like slot into the fullback position, but it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

They're still they're still trying to solve for the fact they lost Esther Hazen, and I understand that is a that is a big, big hole to fill in any back line. I totally understand why it's not easy to do. I just can't see the logic where Jared Evans is the answer there when you've got someone like Northmore who's yeah, he's not as big as Essay, he's still what six foot.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

He's the closest they're gonna get in the squad they've got, unless they want to start playing Cunningham South at twelve. Which, you know, if you're gonna play him at six, you might as well play him at twelve.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Well, yeah, yeah. You have they have got to find a way to give Marcus Smith the the space and opportunity. Because you know, you saw you saw when Marcus Smith got that little bit of time and space, you know, he made a line break that nearly he nearly made the pitch.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

They rely on moments of brilliance from him, and that that's as much as I can. Oh, I've got another doorbell. I've got a doorbell.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

I wonder what's oh it's is it his dog food or his pasta? I know he was giving out about me getting a doorbell early on. I mean it's I do apologise, it's so unprofessional from us that we're constantly getting people arriving at the doors. Um I'm guessing on this occasion uh it's gonna be his foie gras, stilton, and port just in time for the festive season.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Um sadly not very exciting, just an Amazon delivery.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the season. Door to door foie gras that the uh the upper echelons of the civil service are are used to.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

You know, I have to order in a specific sort of wipe for my projector lens. It has to come from a certain specific type of tree based. That can only be found in the Highlands of Scotland, so I have to get it specially shipped in uh because the uh the silk pipes are kind of they spend six months soaking up the specific oil from the tree, so I just have to ship those in, uh special delivery helicopter. Absolutely. So yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Well he sits there eating his tins of caviar whilst he's watching rugby. Yeah, well, you know, it's a hard life.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Uh was I but yes, uh yeah, so Quinn, so they rely on Marcus Smith too much. That's the uh that's the crux of it, and when it doesn't work, they don't work. Uh okay. Any more you want to cover on this game, specifically Wari?

SPEAKER_01 56:02

No, look, I mean what what I will say from from a Gloucester perspective, the the green shoots are there from from our perspective, you know, you can see that there's a few players. The fact that we had Valrapa Ruskin and Afa for Solpin as our props on the bench, hugely positive for us. The fact that we can bring on Cock Greaven Atkinson, you know, if we get Jack Clement, Jack Mann, Ben Loder, uh Yesia's Edward Jureau back sort of in contention over the next couple of weeks, Max Llewellyn, obviously. Arthur Clark. Arthur Clark, yeah, yeah. If he stops breaking his feet every time he walks, um, you know, there's there's some reasons to be positive.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Um it does feel like Gloucester are coming out of that really bad patch with injuries, and again, maybe it's because you've had a bit more time. So those newer signings where that that initial throwing them in at the deep end, yeah, that's no longer the case because they've been with the squad a bit longer. Um so hopefully we'll start to see the potential that we can see in that Gloucester squad. And I I think it's no surprise you get your first victory the first time you can play Atkinson and Joseph together. Um so I'm not I'm not surprised at that at all. Uh so yeah, that game ends 26-15 to Gloucester. Uh should we skip skip the next game?

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I think we should probably um we should probably touch on it, David. Um there's a there's a there's a couple of things to talk about. Uh listeners, if you haven't seen uh the the Bristol Northampton game was game of the weekend for me. Um I really enjoyed this one. Uh even even for the fact of uh such a strong Bristol performance. This was yeah, great, great performance from Bristol.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Yeah, really good performance from Bristol. Um let's focus on them.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Well, I think you know, I think let's let's focus on some some big things. I mean, once again, just the the fact they can deal with such adversity, losing two of their back three players in the first half an hour um and still come away with it's it's it must be really tricky to bring Lewis Reese Samet off the bench.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Real hard hardship for them.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah, yeah, and a Washington uh under 20s player as well, to be fair. Yeah, uh having lost Tom Jordan and Bates um pretty early on.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

The household name Jack Bates, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like for likes, yeah. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Well, I think if we're being honest, David, I think some uh finger pointing might need to be done.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

Um I would say is Northampton didn't get the memo, alright? We thought it was another Prem Rugby Cup game, alright? You just look at that squad, uh, and you would not be surprised if that's what they were thinking, because uh that back line was a who's who of fifth and sixth string Northampton Saints players.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Um yeah, okay, can you just confirm how much this actually reflects the current injury list? Because I know that obviously I know the uh Tommy Freeman's uh injured, and I know Ollie Sly at home has had a bit of a setback on his recovery.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah. So is Alex Mitchell injured? No, so so what's happened here is Northampton are duty bound to rest a number of the England players who played over the autumn issues uh in one game over the next three fixtures. They've obviously made the decision to target the two Champions Cup games that are coming up. So they decided that they will arrest Alex Mitchell, they'll rest Fraser Dingle, they'll rest Alex Coles, they'll rest Alex P um Henry Pollock, uh, and anyone else who I've forgotten for this game to be able to focus on the Champions Cup game. However, we also have injuries to James Ram, George Hendy, Slightholm, as you said, uh Anthony Bello, he's injured. Uh who else? I can't think of who else. And then Hutchinson's wave Scotland. Uh Finn Smith, because he only played twenty odd minutes, or no, eighty odd minutes for England over the four weeks, we could play him, so I don't think he has to rest. Uh and yeah, it just I think a mixture of injuries and us choosing this game to be the one where we rest our England cohort just meant it was a bit of a uh a Prem Rugby Cup lineup. So like Toby Tame, I think it was his first start. Cocasau, first start. Furbank, great to see him back, but obviously it's his first prem game in God knows how long he was he was genuinely brilliant actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was he was probably the sole shining light. The soul shining light.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Eduardo Todaro, I'm sure we'll touch about that, but he got about 20 seconds of game. Yeah. James Pater coming off the bench, he's a senior academy lad who's literally like only just turned 18. Tom Litchfield getting moved to play out of position to accommodate that so make Rory Hutchman in. Archie McParland continuing what I don't want to draw attention to but feels like the Roxmall's overbulls curse on him. Yeah. By having sticky patch of form. Perhaps not his best game in a sticky patch of form. And Finn Smith just unable to unlock anything with that back line because Bristol were excellent in defence and really suffocated him. And then the the pack just were it was an odd selection. So I I think they made a mistake by selecting Ed Prouse and Van der Meshton the locks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Well this this was the one I really do want to ask you about because we're the best one in the world not the most dynamic lock pairing. No obviously Alice Coles would be expected in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

I I think we went in with the idea that we would be able to arm wrestle our way through this game by selecting a really big pack. I think we were immediately put on the back foot by the Tadara red card so then our pack had to work extra hard to try and cover for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

It didn't work well can I just make the accusation the pack didn't really work hard at all throughout this game. No that like as as evidenced very early on by that Marmion try off the tap pen.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yeah the fact that there wasn't a single Saints player making any effort to get back. It was flaringly obvious that the Saints players were not either they weren't fit enough or they weren't upped for this game enough. Because it was really disappointing really disappointing to watch as a Saints fan and the Saints fan base was really quite angry about this performance because it it did look like they didn't really want to be there at times.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

No no I they they looked they looked really really out of sorts in this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Can I say having picked such a big pack the Saints scrum was very average I would say that the refereeing at scrum time was at the time questionable how how Trevor Davidson could be pinged for pulling a scrum down when his elbow's the one pointing up and who was the I think it was La Heath at the time was the one whose head hit the floor and shoulders down and yet Trevor Davidson gets pinged for that and we get pinged for Bristol was he not pinged for backing off though. No the ref was very clear it was for pulling down for pulling down with his elbow so it was it was just an incorrect call. We just seem to get on the wrong side of the ref. I don't again I don't want to point the finger at a ref but I do feel there's a bit of a track record with Ian Tempest he doesn't seem to like Northampton Saints a lot and well what I would say is Ian Tempest could not stop getting in the way of balls. He couldn't I'd also say if you were to watch that game back and look at his body language and tone of voice when talking to Bristol Bears players to how he was talking to Northampton Saints players. And I'm not saying this just through my like I genuinely picked this up he looked like he was so annoyed and sounded annoyed every time Northampton would talk to him but yet he would stand and chat with Harry Thacker for 30 seconds happily lovely tone yeah I'll listen I'll look out for that it was really quite irksome I'll say Rory because well maybe you should reflect on the fact that um a referee doesn't like your club and say well maybe it's the attitude of the club.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

Well I would argue the referee should be absolutely in no way blinkered in any way whether he likes us or not human beings David they're human beings well it's uh and Northampton are inherently unlikable so you know you're gonna have to cope with that at some point.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Okay, okay okay Rory. But yeah yeah like I said I'm not gonna blame the ref because Northampton were poor really poor yeah let's let's and Bristol were really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

Bristol Bristol were excellent particularly James Williams and Bernard Jansen van Rensburg. Oh the between them were phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

You've said the name so I have to ask you thoughts on it's not necessarily that Jansen van Rensberg is now going to be eligible for England because he's now signed that new contract and World Rugby's apparently greenlit it would you want to see him in an England shirt in that already stacked England centre depth chart.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

It's an interesting one isn't it because the rumors are that the RFU have been really lobbying for this specifically with this selection in mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Don't know how true that is but that's the reporting that this is this is very much led by the RFU um yeah this question this question is purely led from speculation in the media it's not been said by as far as I'm aware no one's not said anything Bristol's not said anything the RFU actually haven't said anything publicly so it's just speculation.

Match Four: Bristol Overpower Northampton

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

But if but if they then make this selection does it confirm that or would they just be taking advantage of it? Who knows? It would certainly lead to more speculation um look he is without doubt a phenomenal phenomenal centre who has been one of the best centres in the league for quite some time it would be very difficult to to argue with select him in selecting him in the England squad there is I can't deny it there is a part of me that would be quite uncomfortable with it as a selection purely on the basis of if it comes from specific lobbying to change a specific rule to allow that selection that's gaming a system through the power of the RFU and I I that doesn't sit well for it given the power given the the might the financial might of the RFU and also let's be honest the playing base they've they've got to work with they should not be in a position where they're specifically lobbying to get specific players in that have come through from other nation systems. But he does have an all blacks cap again doesn't quite sit right with me. Yeah um what I I don't I don't like the most powerful bodies trying to gain assistant quite so cynically um so it's no judgment on Bernard Jansson Rensberg who is certainly good enough to play international rugby for England or anyone else. Sure. And I don't I wouldn't begrudge him being selected and I have no doubt he would be a brilliant selection. I don't know necessarily that it's given what we discussed about England's current centre depth which has appeared out of nowhere whether it's necessarily an absolutely vital selection right now. Yeah. But he certainly would be in the conversation what I don't like is that the RFU have seemingly gerrymand and the system to get it when it so disproportionately advantages powerful nations over yeah the the more financially uh poor nations so yeah I think that's why it would sit badly with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Yeah I get that I get that but on the flip side if I saw him in England shirt I'd enjoy watching him but I do get it like would I want to see him selecting a squad over Fraser Dingwall or Seb Atkinson or Oscar Beard like I think that's a bit of a sour taste for players that have come through the system and then they're they're dropped uh but we'll see we'll see how because we are working off speculation um should we touch on no but you were talking about James Williams and uh and Van Rensberg's excellence in the midfield they were fantastic James Williams all court gate I mean had a couple of absolute hurlers of kicks um got one fifth twenty two one lovely little nudge down the down the right wing just it was just an all-round fantastic performance from a player that's you know I think he's one of the players he's come the unfashionable route yeah to to this level um and but he's just proof if proof be need be that there is real quality in the English pyramid if you take the time to nurture it and gamble on it um which you know we we hope we'll there's we'll see more of if the champs continues to strengthen um players of his quality you know would be a rare find in any other system below the top league barring the French system probably um so really really good to see him back out there um Kieran Marmion is just having a stormer of a season um in the absence of Harry Randall uh Worsley at 10 is defying all expectations I think in terms of what he's um really growing in this you know really really doing well and then when you've got the likes of Fitz Hardin Rubiolo Harry Thacker Joe Battley um you know just good good quality league players um in in the pack with the quality of the likes of Bill Matter and Grondona um to come in come on top of that and then young talent like even ashvili uh who at one point uh I think murdered Finn Smith um he's not the only one the only one he properly went for him and lovely to see yeah I think I think I think Finn Smith got absolutely leathered about four or five times in that game.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

He did yeah he was a real real real tough time of it uh not helped by a pack that was not giving him the backup that he needed to to lay off the ball yeah no protection uh but yeah no I I cannot disagree with uh any of that assessment uh they were Bristol to a man were the better side and yeah James Williams and Marmion I thought were particularly very impressive uh probably touch on Eduardo Todaro we've been singing his praises for some time now this season yeah it's naivety it's not malicious oh no it's the naive challenge of a young player and really part of something that I I I actually want to ask you about because obviously the the much vaunted Saints academy system that uh obviously performed so well in the academy leagues and has been producing some brilliant players for certainly in recent in recent years but for a long time really and has a lot of exciting players coming through you know having Todaro Tame Thangusal McParland all in that back line you know obviously part of it injury uh injury enforced but have Saints relied too heavily on the quality of their youngsters too much are they trying to leverage that academy too much too early and to the detriment of maybe to the detriment of their of their development but certainly to the detriment of um results like this where they were outmuscled out thought and made some fairly fundamental errors yeah I I well I I think it's a conscious decision squad wise to have quite a heavy academy based because you get academy credits it's really it's financially makes sense as a club and maybe it's one of the reasons why we are one of the clubs that is more financially stable than others because it's a conscious decision to have quite a heavy academy presence I I think this fixture specifically in in normal times with normal injuries we wouldn't have seen that sort of selection so a lot of it is kind of forced upon us because normally I think because Tom James has had quite a long injury layoff normally he would be the starter in that at nine for instance normally we'd have George Hendy or James Ram on the wing uh Tom Litchfield able to operate if injuries pending it probably would have been Bellow at twelve so I think just in this specific set of circumstances it was just the injuries were in the wrong places for this game so we've had to lean on the younger players more than we probably would like but I I there was like as a whole squad is it I and I appreciate the the the academy credits point that you know that is a good good reason to to focus on it but has it have have you skewed it too far in that direction to for for situations like this I would I would argue one result doesn't make that all of a sudden a bad decision to make uh I I think there's there's a number of things here that are slightly out of the ordinary that have happened no but there's I mean I and appreciate this is the end of an unbeaten run um and you were top of the table coming into this so and and I appreciate that but I think it would be fair to say it's not been a plain sailing unbeaten run. Obviously there was a draw against Exeter there was a half against Gloucester where it sort of nearly fell apart I mean obviously and some you know obviously some really strong results as well but I just wonder if there's a couple of shaky signs there.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

Potentially we might so this game probably is emblematic of the problems with that approach but I also think you look at the more successful clubs in the league at the moment they all seem to be leaning towards copying that approach as well Saracens are clearly leaning towards that Bath are starting to do that certainly in the pack less so in the backs but their pack wise is moving that way as well so I think most clubs are look starting to realise that if they can really start to back their Academy players yeah for this one there's probably a few players that maybe they weren't ready. Toby Tame I I bigged up at the start of the season that this will be his breakout year it was a tough game for him but you know he was up against two very very good centres in very good form and it was a tricky tricky start being down one in kind of the back line and then like in the first 20 minutes we were three four tries down like it was a it was it was an up anyway for anyone. Hokasal like I he's not even an academy project he's just one we've picked up this summer but he's he's basically a project player we picked up Glasgow isn't yeah yeah so he's he's a project player like I don't think ordinarily we would be envisaging him starting in the Prem this soon anyway. Like Todaro like I'm so I'm really happy he has emerged as a players but it's very rarely a player in their first year after signing as a senior academy player that they're starting every game. So we're quite lucky how that's worked out especially with the injuries we've had because I think again in normal s normal times he wouldn't have started all the games he has done. I I think it's just again Northampton Saints small violin time suffering with injuries but I'm I don't want Northampton to change the way they do it because I I like that they back the Academy. I like that they are trying to expose these young players to these experiences it does mean every now and then we're gonna get a shellacking. But I'm hopeful because this is a it's that quirky time of the year where we have to rest England players and there's other players that we try and rest. So we could have started Hutchison but we wanted to rest him we could have started Frischetti but we wanted to give him rest like we didn't have to rest these players I think there was a conscious decision to kind of give these international players that bit of extra time and we just suffered for it this week. That's I think that's it. So I'm I'm not I'm not gonna say it's too much of a fundamental issue at Northampton at this point in time. We'll see how the season goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:03

Yeah yeah fair and obviously when it comes to Saints I have the answers uh but yeah uh I think it was 4612 to Bristol just a shellacking as I said you don't think you know yeah uh so yeah less said about that the better next game really good game this one I thought Saracens versus the Bath um thoughts Rory tale of two halves I thought kind of well to be said I mean it was tighter at halftime than it probably deserved to pay for what Saracens were it was a tale of one quarter versus three quarters when Tom Willis left because I still maintain my theory that Saracens struggle to win without Tom Willis uh they well they certainly struggled to keep getting the go forward they were getting beforehand um which is fair enough because that's something Tom Willis is bloody brilliant at um yeah an interesting one I mean I would say broadly speaking in the first half as a whole Saracens were by some distance the better team actually um Arundel obviously with uh another 80 metre finish off an intercept from a very um daft um I think it was Van Zale uh through the pass. Yeah an unusually unusually loose mistake from him um and then Thomas Toy scoring off the back of uh um a mall that went on for about five minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:24

Yeah um yeah Saris counted it really well and then it stops and then Bath had given all the time in the world to I can't help but think there must be some sort of jiggery pokery going on inside that mall because I don't see I don't I tried to track where the ball was and I don't understand how DeToi ended up with it because he didn't have the ball from the start of that mall he was at the front of it. I'm like how's that happened? Um but you know a TMO's not going to sit there and pick through whether the ball's transferred through the mall legally uh with a fine tooth comb not for bath not for bath we're gonna go down that route again we're gonna be the anti-bath pod we're not going there anytime soon again so we can start digging into them again um well can I can I just make the slight point of what would it have taken Christoph uh Christopher Ridley to call a a not straight line out for Bath because he's very willing to call it for Saracens but he didn't mention it once for Bath on some very ropey calls.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:21

That being said Theodan's lineup darts are close to being a liability um Saris again thankfully he was really good round the park so he made up so good around the park carried real big yeah um so that makes up for a lot of it but a couple of times you get some very unsaries moments where they cough up in the red zone because they don't execute a lineup and it's it's in it's it's not it's not typical of of what you think of when it comes to Saracens.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:49

But yeah I mean Theo Dan did a lot of good carrying and then Tom Willis was going really well up until the injury um statistically he was on for a worldie uh yeah in his in his 20 minutes he'd like broken like six tackles beat six defenders carried like 30 meters said I'd made like eight tackles or like he was on for some monster numbers and then unfortunately he got he he got he somehow landed on his back and it looks like he'd just done like a done his back in something like that. Oh I was so annoyed he went off I wasn't quite sure what it was but obviously he's my captain and all my fantasy rugby and that basically ruined me this week um yeah yeah I didn't have a great week because I forgot to save my changes to my starting lineup and dogged it I didn't have a great week because I made the decision to swap uh Arundel out for Calory uh because well quite rightly Saracen's definitely had a game plan in place to target Arundel in the air uh but I did not I did not anticipate Arundel having answers to it if I'm honest and he did no I mean not not completely having answers to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:49

I mean Clory gave him gave him some real trouble there and got and got some good change out of it but no I thought Arundel stood up really well to that challenge and actually having those two go up against each other was a really good kind of answer for where they are and potential future future options as a pairing um but on top of everything else you know obviously you cannot deny Arundel's pace.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

No yeah that breakaway try like all the like Calori was trying to keep up with he just gave up very quickly I haven't got the pace for him is he the is he the quickest man in the league I can't think of anyone obviously who's quicker I mean maybe Reese Samet at full tilt you know I would I would like to see a race end to end of the pitch between those two.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:30

Again we're gonna we're gonna call out for a Prem rugby combine I'd love to see a 40 yard dash times imagine I mean I I think Arundel may be quicker off the mark maybe Reese Samet over a longer distance but Radwan it's there's not not much Radwan off the mark yeah but I don't think at full tilt.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

No it'd be an interesting one but yeah I yeah so a point I want to make around Calori and I'm I'm completely on the Calorey hyper train but is he already in danger of being almost played into being a one trick pony because like he seems to be selected for one thing and one thing only and he's very very good at it. I'm I'm just worried that will all of his other skills which I know he has from watching him through under 20s and stuff he just seems to only be utilized for that one really great skill he's got teams will be able to figure that out and teams will be able to adapt to that. I'm just I'm worried that he might get a bit of that Leslie Vinercolo treatment that he storms the league teams figure him out and then you become nullified because you've just been kind of rolled out for this very specific role.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

I I just I just I I don't want Saracens or England or anyone just to look at him as solely as just only a highball threat which seems to be the only way he's getting used at the moment no well I think there's there's a couple of challenges there right I mean one challenge is Can Saris game plan that's got enough in enough in it to get use out of him out of anything other than just his highball game right um and to be fair Barth is maybe not the opponent when you start swinging it to the width too often because they did they tried that once and Arundel nicked it and ran you know the length of the pitch.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Yeah but arguably in like halfway through the 22 is not the place to be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

So that's surely that wasn't the Saracen's game plan that was just Van Zale making a bad call surely yeah yeah no absolutely but you know it's it's it's definitely there's definitely a question as to whether how and when you use him and there's he's you know Saracens need to find a way to use him in in all facets of his ability rather than just the fact he can jump really well. But then the the other challenge of course is he's got to find a way of getting himself in the game the likes of the ways of Fay Waboto does Tommy Freeman does yeah that's the challenge. Because ultimately if you if you stay in that comfort zone as a player of what you're known to be very good at you know that that is that is what you'll be fed to and you'll you know and he will continue to look brilliant there. But there's a there's the challenge has got to be to him to to bring more to the game as as well as Darry's to to offer more to him but you know I think I I still think he's got the talent to to to bring more than just a highball game to the pit.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

So I I say this because I know he does that. Yeah like I say it's because I know he does because I've seen what he's done under 20s and I'm just worried that I just don't want him to become one of these players where he just gets asked to a very specific role and like you kind of lose all the other parts of his game that were also really good and it's just like yes no absolutely but you know the other the other element is he's what three four games into his senior career. Oh exactly it's completely unfair of me to uh point any criticism which I'm trying to not do because I don't think it's a criticism of him at all. I just don't want clubs or coaches to just typecast him as a specific type of player.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:45

Ultimately I I would like to think he'll figure it out and you know realists he was up against one of the best wingers in the league. Certainly the most informed winger in the league for sure. Yeah we we've got to we've got to call it as we say I think at this point you know he he is absolutely bringing in everything he was wanted to bring at the start of the season at this point. Even if there was a couple of shaky moments early on that we called out I think you know we have to we've got to hold our hands up and say no Arundell is genuinely just that good actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:13

He looks like a maybe it's the bath environment he looks like a different player to what he was at Rassing uh from like clips I watch him there.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:19

He just he looks confident again uh which for the rest of the league will be scary um because yeah Arundel in full flight close to unstoppable uh certainly in open play so yeah that's a concern uh because then we just move on to Bath Pack yet again uh well again really impressed with Arthur Green yeah another one another really good who is a player I'm increasingly excited by uh I always forget how quick Josh Bayless is he is he's like the fact that they've got him and Ted Hill as six options who have both got the pace of out you know Bath pack has the quickest back rower in the league for sure it's it's ludicrous. Um it's so he's it's such a get out of jail free card to be able to pass to a back rower who's quicker than everyone else's winger. Yeah um obviously you know we spoke about them all it's just hard it's almost unstoppable and then on top of that uh they throw everyone off with a trick five meter tap penalty play to to put Wool Button in the corner which I know Saras have been very disappointed about not finishing but Bath have been setting everyone up with Tom Dunn non-taps and goes for the last two seasons and then they just switched it up just to just to fuck with Sarason in this game. Yeah which I quite enjoy as a bit of trolling but that pack is just it's so it's so hard to to envisage how we any other team competes with it. Marles Reed uh was phenomenal once again as he often as he often is always in fact at the just great at the breakdown. Yeah five five turnovers you very rarely get that number in a single game and what you have to also appreciate is that five that's five turnovers against Ben El and Gonzalez who are two of the best back throwers in the world. Yeah yeah it's certainly in Gonzalez's case he's he's Gonzalez is a for being the best back rower in the world yeah yeah absolutely I mean Ben L came off the back of four superb performances for England you know it's he's he's not playing against mugs and he still every week just churns out those seven eight nine nine out of ten performances um and then yeah just the rest of the pack is just completely indomitable I mean it's it's really it's it's really hard to see any past Bath at this point. I know they haven't won every game but you can't you just can't really envisage them not just winning the league.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

As we said before they they do they feel inevitable they feel it's gonna take something superhuman and a one off occasion to beat them and maybe that's what Leicester harnessed at Matteola Woods Ralph Road. It's hard to see another team I thought Saracens so in the first 20 minutes I thought Saracens really really showed them showed up really well and I thought Saracens were onto something but the second Bath get a little bit of momentum back get get a bit of control back that they are just unstoppable. Like there isn't really an answer.

Match Five: Saracens vs Bath, Power And Pace

SPEAKER_01 1:26:14

I think the question the the only question for me now is how far can they go in Europe which we we obviously start to see from this weekend. Yeah um because actually I think if Bath can have a good tilt at Europe if Saints continue their European form Saracens you'd expect to have a good crack at Europe maybe tigers can can can do something as well um even Sale maybe if they can if they can turn around this this patchy form they've got at the moment with the with the abrasiveness of that that pack you know does the Prem start to show up in Europe again really strongly do you think Prem rugby could get four of the eight quarter finalists I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility I don't think it's likely but I certainly think they could get three I certain I could see Bath well I mean be amazed if Bath don't it would take I think it would take a real um surprise well a couple of a couple of real upsets acknowledging that they're gonna have to play some good players I mean they're playing Monster and Toulon this side of Christmas those are not easy fixtures but I would still suggest that Bath should expect to get through Saints assuming they can get some bodies back on the pitch off the back of last season no further outplaying anyone and I think should make it through um and you know then beyond that the Bristol Tigers and Sale those three in particular I think are all capable of stringing together some good results in Europe and getting through probably not in the top seeds. Yeah yeah but I could certainly see those three being in the mix uh and I would think one if not two can get through I don't expect to see Gloucester do much if I'm if I'm honest and I I my gut feel is we won't necessarily uh Gloucester are playing for one of those positions where you get dropped into the challenge cup that's what you're playing for probably probably I mean we've got cast at home this weekend which is winnable. Yeah um cast aren't put pulling up trees in France but it's certainly winnable and then Munster away the week after which I'm going to and very much looking forward to safety the knowledge that I don't think we'll be um pulling off any great shocks there. And then Edinburgh away which is definitely winnable. Yeah we in fact and we've won we've won away at Edinburgh in the Challenge Cup in recent time yeah the last season or season before uh and then Toulon at home who knows you know that's I don't I don't know enough about Toulon's form at the moment to give you a good answer on that one. So look I don't think Gloucester are going to get through and I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that Gloucester are going to get through the next round it's not beyond the realms of entire possibility but I'm I'm not expecting it. But I would expect Bath Saints and one or two of those other three to make it well that that fun European journey starts this weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

We'll uh we'll see how we can cover that when we come to next week's pod. But yeah so the the Series Bath game Bath just yeah as we said indomitable inevitable and they won again 3629 bonus point another five points uh back to the top of the table where they're probably going to remain now for the rest of the season I imagine um the before we kind of move towards closing the podcast Rory because I know we're getting towards uh the the the tail end of this podcast I'll put my hands up I didn't watch the Wales vs South Africa because I I knew it was going to be a cricket score.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:34

It was a cricket score I didn't yeah I didn't either I wasn't really interested but I would um I would love your sixty second take on the talking point Eb and Etzabeth well I mean he if if they've got anything about them they'll throw the book in for that I know that some footage has has arisen that he may have been provoked with an eye gouge of his own um but then throw the book at both of them. I Know I don't care, but you know, it's it was it's it's the lack of subtle in it is insane. It's an insane thing to have done for a player of that experience again in in a situation where they're winning so comfortably, you know, he knows what's happened there. One of the Welsh players has lost their head because they're getting tonked and has has done something stupid. He what he should have done is called it out to the ref and asked the TMA to have a look, or you know, in the knowledge that um they'll review it after the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:29

But I'm assuming you're referring to I'm assuming you're referring to the still photo that shows no conclusive evidence of a finger in an eye, it's just someone's arm near someone's face, versus a very clear video footage of Evan Etzavit staring into the person's eye that his thumb is pushing directly into with a very angry look on his face. There are two very different sets of evidence, and the amount of times I've seen South African fans peddling this picture of Alex Mann with his arm close to Etzbeth Evan Etzabeth's face, saying, Oh, that's because his fingers are his eye is absolutely ludicrous. South African fans should just look at themselves. Uh and the fact that like even some players like Brian Habana's come out and said that a lengthy ban should be going uh this should retire Etzabeth because it does not belong in this game. Eye gouging is the worst possible thing you can do on the pitch, and I want them to throw the book at him. I would be happy if they threw a year at him, two years, just retire him because that's what he deserves. Uh and if his legacy is ruined because of it, so be it. You shouldn't do anything as stupid as that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:29

My gut feel is they won't do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:31

They they probably won't. You'll probably get twelve weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

Yeah, 1216 weeks, something like that, with a reduction in ban for good disciplinary record or whatever, uh, or good good conduct at the hearing, usually the sort of thing they do in these sort of school teacher environments, they do it in um but we all saw that video.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:48

We all saw that video, we saw his face. He was looking directly at Alex Mann's face whilst he was pushing his thumb directly into his eye. I can't unsee it. That's all I remember him for now. Sorry, Evan, but legacy ruined in my eyes. I know that won't mean anything to you, uh it won't mean anything to South African fans, but let's face it, it's dirty. It's the same way that I look at Callum Clark now. Like I used to love Callum Clark, then he went and deliberately broke John Hawkins' arm. Dirty players are dirty players and they don't belong on the pitch.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:15

Certainly not certainly players who are dirty in that fashion.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:19

Anyone who does something deliberately with malice, which I think it was. To a fellow pro? Yeah. I'm not here for it. So yeah, I hope they throw the book at him. They probably won't. Uh and do South Africa need to think about how many red cards they're picking up because it's pretty ludicrous now.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:34

Yeah. I mean they did have a red card, I think they had a red card in every game, didn't they?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:38

Every single game.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:38

I know they'll they'll claim persecution. And there are a coup we we obviously spoke about um at least the Moster example where we thought that was that was unfair. Um, but yes at some point you've gotta you're gonna you've gotta take a long hard look at yourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

Yeah, yeah. Like it's it doesn't yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, you know, we'll s we'll we'll see if the trend continues next year where South Africa come back, maybe maybe they'll go away and start being good boys. Uh we'll see. And did you want to finish off with a round up of the PWR, Rory, before we close?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:09

Yeah, quick, I think a quick round up is worth doing um because uh some interesting results. Uh Gloucester Hartbury continuing their march, still unbeaten at the top of the table, with a very handsome victory over a strong Bristol Bears team. Um and uh you know I think Gloucester Hartbury are just marching their way to another title at this point because the yeah the fact they've dispatched dispatched the likes of Saracens and uh Bristol with pretty pretty consumer ease um suggests that they are gonna be a cut above everyone else again. Um that change that change of coach really hasn't slowed down the momentum, has it? No, and he I was watching a couple of interviews with him, he speaks really well. I think you know you can see why they took him on. It's part obviously part of the setup beforehand. Yeah um, you know, you could you can just see that that there's a really good feeling in that camp. Um but uh kind of interesting, I mean Sayle getting a draw against Exeter, it's not been an easy start to the season for Sayle, Holly Herson obviously making a way up there and not necessarily having the immediate impact, but some maybe turn the tide a little bit with Exeter, Exeter, one of the strongest sides in the league. Um so getting the draw there is something to hang the hat on. Uh Loughborough Lightning getting a good win against um Leicester women, I think, are probably in for a pretty tough season uh at this point, but um you know we're sure they'll turn it around at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:38

And Saracens absolutely dominate in the Trailfinders at Trailfinders, uh 57-5. So maybe some signs that the Saracens team is clicking after that early loss to Gloucester Hartbury.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:53

Um and if you can if we I hope they do, because I I want them to be real competition for Gloucester Hartbury, because I think that league needs a rivalry at the top and like it not to be so kind of kind of like how Ealing Trail Finders have been in the champ in recent years, where it's just like oh running away with it. It'll be good if Saracens can really provide competition.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:13

I think I think Saracens will come good because the quality of players they've got there are not. They have got the players, yeah. They've got the players, and they just need the time. Um, but you know, I s I expect Quinn's to form to pick up eventually as well. Um, they've had a poor start to the season, but there's too much quality in that team to stay down for long. Yeah, but Bristol. Um, so I I suspect there'll be it'll be tighter at the top than it looks at the moment, but yeah, as of today, um Gloucester Hartbury are marching towards another title, so we'll see how things go from here.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:44

Yeah, and I suppose while we're on the PWR, it's a good time. It's uh just it's a hats off to the career of Abby Dow.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:49

Yes, yes, leaving the sport to to um head back into uh engineering, a real shame. Um peak of her powers at 28. You know, you'd love to have seen her go to another World Cup, really. But um, you know, I understand that uh you know, in in in the women's game particularly, you know, you have to make some decisions that that are um different to the top of the men's game. So I understand that. Um, but uh yeah, real shame to see her go, but you know, a hell of a player, a hell of a player. I mean, I think John Mitchell said he fit to his money had the best right wing in the world, and there's some there's a couple of uh good players around, but I think he might have had a point to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:28

Oh yeah, absolutely. She was yeah, fantastic, all very, very reliable, very, very dependable, and always delivered on that right wing for England. Um and I always enjoyed having her in my Women's Six Nations fantasy team because she consistently delivered incredible points. Um I can't make it all about me, Rory. Uh but no, hats off to Abby Dow. Uh great career, and hopefully she'll go on to some really great stuff uh it outside of the sport. But maybe it's making room for next gen coming through. I know there's there's a few exciting young England winner wingers waiting in the wing um to come through. I think that's it, Rory. I think that's us for this week. Next week we'll uh we'll tackle the Champions Cup, Challenge Cup, maybe if we've got time. We'll have a think in between this podcast and next podcast how we deliver that to you, because I don't think we'll be able to give you a game by game breakdown of all of the games, but uh we'll have a think about how we bring our views to you. Um but I can't wait. I love Champions Cup. Uh sadly, I'm I'm away this weekend, uh somewhere where I won't be able to watch games, so I've booked all of Monday off work so I can just sit and absorb it so I can talk, talk, talk, talk it with Rory in next week's podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:36

Well look forward to uh look forward to catching up with you on that next week, David. But uh but do you have any final thoughts? Oh, I can't wait. I love European rugby.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

But yeah, I do need your final thought before I bring the podcast to a close.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:49

I say we cut off Etsy Best's thumbs.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:52

And with that, it brings Ruxballs Overballs episode. I've lost track to a close. We've been Ruxballs Overballs. If you've enjoyed, listen to us, make sure to like, comment, subscribe, and do whatever you like with our content. We don't mind. And uh, we'll be back again next week, hopefully, if I don't get too busy at work. Ta!

SPEAKER_01 1:38:11

Ta.