S2 Ep 14 - Franchises For Prem & Fixing Faltering European Rugby?

A pint-soaked weekend in Cork quickly gives way to the biggest question in English rugby: is a sealed Premiership the only path to stability? We don’t dodge it. We weigh romance versus reality, outline how a franchise model can expand into Yorkshire and the southeast without ripping clubs from their roots, and sketch a ten-year roadmap that funds academies, powers a revived A‑League, and reconnects the Championship to meaningful, high-standard rugby. Investors want certainty; fans want honesty. Both can get what they need if the plan is clear.

European rugby, though, needs an urgent reset. The current pool stage smothers jeopardy and encourages soft selections. Our manifesto is straightforward: six pools of four, home and away, with the top six plus two best runners-up into quarters. It gives broadcasters a storyline, fans real stakes, and clubs three home gates that matter. We talk frankly about South African teams: while they’re in the URC, keeping them in EPCR is the least messy option. The goal is a product people are excited to watch every round, not just in May.

On the field, a few performances cut through the noise. Sale’s trip to Clermont was a defensive clinic—huge tackle counts, ruthless edge hits, and Rafi Quirk back to slicing defences. Glasgow flipped Toulouse with direct carrying and lightning ruck speed, proving star power wilts under pressure. Leicester pushed Leinster but lacked bench punch late. Toulon met Bath at the coalface and exposed Finn Russell’s flat spell. Saracens took a soft selection to a wet Durban built for their game and let a big opportunity slip. Elsewhere, Saints, Bristol, and Quins cruised, underlining how this format dilutes jeopardy.

We also map the transfer currents—Newcastle’s Red Bull pull, Welsh captains to Gloucester, Marchant’s return—and why clubs must turn signings into genuine stories, not just posters. If you care about structure, selection, and the games that actually matter, you’ll find plenty to argue with here. If you enjoy a good rant about lineouts and benches, you’ll feel right at home. Enjoy the ride, then tell us: what’s your number one change to fix European rugby? And if you’re new here, hit follow, share with a mate, and drop a review—your notes shape the next show.

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Transcript

Opening Banter And Cork Away Day

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome, it's Rux Balls and Over the Balls back again with some classic rugby podcasting. And as ever, it is me, Dave, joined by Rory, the other classic rugby podcast host. Say hello, Rory, to the listener.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Hello, listeners.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hello, hello David, how are you? Oh, I'm very well, thank you, Rory. I'm very well. How are you? I know you had a busy weekend. I'm keen to find out more.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Yes, I've spent the weekend in Ireland. God. Such a gallant little trip with uh with the old man and the brother to go and watch uh Gloucester play against Munster and Cork at the new GAA stadium, uh as opposed to Torment Park, which is in some ways a little bit of a disappointment that it wasn't at Torment Park, but to make up for that, Cork, what a city.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah. Any particular highlights you wish to share?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Uh the Chine pub, amazing. Clancy's for Breakfast, amazing. Quinlan's restaurant, amazing. Several other pubs that names I didn't quite catch, but I went to and really enjoyed thoroughly. Uh Beamish, nicer than Guinness. Wow. Murphy's, not quite as nice as Guinness, but still nice. Guinness, nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

So you covered the three major food groups in Ireland. Yes, Beamish, Murphy's, and Guinness. Fantastic, fantastic. Uh, and how were how were the uh the fans? Did they treat you well as a visitor?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Do you know what? Uh as they say in Ireland, they were great crack.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Oh, okay. I thought I thought you were gonna stop there at great because I was gonna say they say that in other places.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Um they were brilliant. They're honestly, they're um they're really just great. They're really uh knowledgeable, really like not just knowledgeable about Monster, but kind of the wider context of both teams and you know, great to talk to about the competition, they're good fun, they're good natured, you know, everything you kind of want from an away day experience you got from uh from the Monster fans. So I can't I can't speak highly enough of them.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

So what you're saying is that they should be listening into this podcast because we're you know knowledgeable, we're got a good view of the sport in general.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Like I honestly I think the biggest problem for Monster Rugby fans is they're not there's not enough of them listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Well, I I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. So Monster fans, I'm expecting some uh some good numbers this week because I'm sure Rory would have been singing the praises of the podcast on his travels and uh with every conversation I'm sure he started off with Have you heard of Rux Malls over Balls? Went around with an armob t-shirt on and told everyone about it. Well, I expect nothing less, Rory. My weekend, particularly less exuberant, should we say. Oh really? Did some Christmassy eventing on one of the days. Boring then got unwell. So wasn't able to go to the Saints game in person, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Ah, boring.

Munster Fans, Pubs, And Atmosphere

SPEAKER_01 2:57

So unfortunately, very boring from old Dave here. Oh no, Dave. But you know You're drinking tea as well. I am drinking tea from a Christmas mug. I thought you were. I thought you were gonna call me a Christmas mug there, Rory, and I would have accepted that. Uh I'll just say that about you, David. Oh, that's very kind of you. Well, I think this is enough chitter-chatter about anything casual and you know, unexciting. I think we've got some rugby. So we're gonna cover a few things going on in the world of rugby at the moment. Uh a little bit around the Prem and some of the noise that's going on there. Uh a bit about the transfer merry-go-round that's going on as we speak. It doesn't stop spinning. Uh we've got our own political campaign that we're gonna launch. And we'll then do a roundup of the Champions Cup, trying to go through as many games as we can. We appreciate that last week we tried to go through every single fixture, and maybe some parts may have felt a little bit rushed, so we're gonna be a bit more selective of our analysis for this week to see how that one lands. How does that sound, Rory? Does that sound like the way forward you wish to take?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I'm in total agreement, David. Let's dive into things. I'm glad to hear it because you didn't have a choice.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Uh first of all, a little bit of I don't know if it's news or whether it's just kind of social media speculation, but there's been a couple of posts I've seen about apparently the RFU has rubber stamped the idea of Prem Rugby going down the franchise model, scrapping relegation, in aid of supporting Prem Rugby searching for investment uh and kind of external investors to then prop up this what would be closed-off fee. We've heard about it in the past, we've spoken about it bits and pieces, uh, but it feels like maybe a bit more smoke to the fire. Just wondered whether there's any any thoughts we wish to put to this concept that we kind of expected was on its way.

What’s On The Agenda

Premiership Franchise Model Debate

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah, I th I think that's the point, isn't it? This is I think we're just reaching the culmination of what felt like sort of an inevitable journey uh in some ways. Um to be honest, I'm now more of the opinion that this is probably the necessary end point for Prem Rugby. Um, or maybe not endpoint, but this is probably the necessary next step for Prem Rugby in terms of building a sustainable model. Um my gut feel is that there's no viable way to build a sustainable pyramid system in England at this moment in time. Um why is that? Is that is that player numbers, just lack of lack of investment, lack of investment. There's there's not enough money in not enough teams to have a viable pyramid, and we know this because only one team in the last what 30 years effectively has been able to come up from the championship to the premiership and not go bust. Um so there's no there there isn't a really a good argument that promotional relegation should be um open between the champ and the prem at this moment in time, yeah, because it's it's not feasible. What I would what I would argue is this is the best next step for the Prem to become a sustainable model. So you can then build that the Prem into probably a 12, 13, 14 team tournament, depending on how far they want to go with that. You then have the opportunity either simultaneously or once you've built that to establish the champ into a more uh sustainable competition and then expand the Prem into a two-level franchise, so you have two tiers of a of a franchise tournament. But the the trouble is to get from where we are today to that, you probably have to start by sealing off the Prem, building that out, and then going and and doing the same with the champ. At this point, I don't think there's a viable way to have um an open pyramid system all the way to top-level rugby in in England, which is a shame. You know, the the my instinct is always that you should have promotion and relegation and have that jeopardy all the way down the league. Yeah, but the reality is it's it's not really been there for a considerable period of time, and it's unlikely to get to that point in in a way that will allow the current prem to s to retain you know financial solvency or reach financial solvency, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

And I think so. I I I'd I mostly agree with what you're saying. I think the thing that I am nervous about, and I think it's the angle that is kind of overlooked by most people talking about it, is the term being used franchises. Because that that suggests uh the possibility of picking up and moving and shaking and doing something very different and taking clubs away from their roots. Um that worries me uh as a fan of a club. I imagine that it would worry someone like yourself, Rory, who's a fan of a club in quite a congested part of the country.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Yeah, absolutely. No, I I look I completely hear that, and there is a definite concern with that. I mean, anyone who's got uh a bit of knowledge on the history of the NFL will know of the numerous examples of franchises that have been picked up and moved, and in some occasions, you know, it's a devastating effect to the town. You know, the if anyone knows about the Indianapolis Colts were previously the Baltimore Colts and left Baltimore without a team for several years. There's a massive grassroots campaign to bring an NFL franchise back there because it was it left the town so kind of bereft, and we don't want to see that in rugby. What my counter to that would be, at least in the in the short, medium, and probably most of the long term, I don't see that being a problem because where I think the term franchise league is being used in this is more in an example of how they want to expand the league.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Okay, so you so my gut feel would be there's more chance that they will look to expand a franchise league into areas where there currently isn't coverage. So Yorkshire would be a good example. Um, actually, the the southeast, other than west or north of London.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

It leaves the door open for them five years down the line saying we're going to introduce a new franchise into the league called the Wasps, for example, and they're going to be based in the southeast of the country.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Well, we know Wasps have got plans to build a stadium in Kent, right? Um which is a which is very much an area where actually, although there are teams in Queens and Saracens, you know, because I live in Essex, I've got a little bit of experience of this, it's actually a pain in the ass to get to the stoop, and it's even more of a pain in the ass to get to the Stone X from the southeast. And there's a lot of rugby fans this side of London, yeah, who would definitely fill. I'm almost certain that that franchise would fill out a stadium successfully. I also think there's a good opportunity and an appetite to put a franchise in Yorkshire.

unknown 9:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I think there's enough, I think there is definitely enough appetite there. I I would argue Coventry, arguably Coventry in Birmingham, but certainly Coventry's got more of a rugby history, would be um an area that that's missed. You could argue that might be filled by Worcester, but I I'm not certain of that. But certainly that there's two big population centres there that aren't being serviced. You've got most the Northwest is probably catered for by sale, although I would argue in that franchise model, if you were to pick up sale and move them somewhere else within the Manchester area where there's a better better spot for a stadium that's more central, more maybe maybe not an industrial estate. Maybe not an industrial estate underneath a motorway, yeah, like a flyover. So, from that point of view, I think um there's always good pros and cons to any any model. You know, we're seeing the cons to the current model now, right? There's just no financial solvency.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

So yeah, but I also think this noise is coming off of the back of the good, the good noise that is coming out of Prem rugby at the moment, that it is probably turning a corner, it is becoming interesting to investors. It seems like they're looking at American investors, which doesn't exactly fill me with lots of hope, but obviously. Honestly, everyone is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

I mean, to be fair, and that's not just sport. No, every everyone is looking at the US Middle Eastern investors at this point in time.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Look at Premiership football. Most of the clubs are in by American fighting.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Because that's where the sports audience is at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, but that's why they're looking at that. 2031 Rugby World Cup, there may be interest there to try and do something. So yeah, I wonder when we hear the next step in this, because it feels like whether this was like a little leak to just test the waters to see what people say.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Well, I I think there's a reason why they've leaked this. Because whilst this has been rubber stamped by RFU's senior leadership, by the sounds of things, it still has to pass that noblest of organisations, the RFU council. Because, of course, for rugby in this country, in order for us to organise top-level professional rugby in a way that we think is financially solvent, we 100% need to get the opinion of Dave from Eastern Counties with his gravy splattered tie, who's got who wants to uh have ambitions of bringing you know little Tidsbury up to the Prem one day if they just get the right investors in. Yeah, it's it you know the the ludicrous situation we find ourselves in where Prem Rugby is now at the behest of a council of rank amateurs in their blazers and ties, yeah. Just discussing about for a jolly on a Saturday afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

No offense to the good people of Little Tidsbury. Um, but it is a problem, and we have spoken about this at length in previous episodes of this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

I am I am flummoxed by this one. I can't believe that we're now. I think the reason they've leaked this is to put pressure on the council.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I I think you might be right. And I it's interesting that I think say two, three years ago, I think the noise around this would have been mostly against. You look at some of the under the lines and some of these things, and most most people seem to kind of get it now, I think. So whether people are just coming to terms with actually what the reality is of Prem Rugby, I think they're seeing that like there has been a corner turned, but I think they're realizing maybe there's only so far that corner can turn without anything major.

Expansion, Relocation Fears, And New Markets

SPEAKER_02 13:12

The what what we haven't had really, what the Prem and the RFU have to set out is a longer term vision for this, and not one that is just we're making money and England win the World Cup. Obviously, those that's great. We want those those things. What people what I think people need to say is a plan of like we think in five years in this model we can get the Prem not only profitable but significantly profitable to the point where we can start reinvesting that money into expanding grassroots academies, pathways, etc. Within 10 years, we think we can have a viable Prem and Champ model where we have promotion and relegation between, I don't know, let's say conservatively 26 teams. Yeah. That's I I don't think that's an unreasonable ambition. No, I think that's realistic. If you implement a long-term plan, but you have to set out that vision for it because this kind of opaque process that we constantly go through in English rugby, where no one really knows what it is they're trying to get to and how they're trying to get to it, you've got to lay out look, this is why we think this model works now. This is where we think we can get to in a couple of years, five years, ten years, and this is how we think that will then affect the wider rugby ecosystem. Why we think it's not just good for top-level rugby, we think it's good for grassroots rugby too. Yeah, yeah. That you have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yeah, I do wonder if you look through the smoke and mirrors, if there have been little snippets that have been released over the years that are pointing in the direction. Like you think back in the past where we've spoken about because they announced those um kind of junior player contracts, uh homegrown players under the age of 25 and the kind of their base salary, they've spoken about these uh kind of A-League returning, all these little things, like there's one of their little snippets that they just put out there as feelers to see what people think about it. Because I think these are the sort of things that would need to be considered if you're going to have this franchise league system with a closed-up prem. Try and introduce the champ because I think the idea would be to have these A-league sides compete against champ sides.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, well, here's what here's where I think you can tie some of those things in together. Right now, English rugby's pathway is as healthy as it's ever been. Yeah, yeah. The work that particularly someone like Connor O'Shea has done in the RFU. Just look at any squad in the Prem at the moment and the number of young Academy players that are not only in and around squads are playing regularly, not just in domestic but European competition. We'll come on to some of those issues later on. But what you don't have an issue with at the moment is there being enough players. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's there's a mass of academy, young Academy players coming through that actually there's not enough games to service.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think, yeah, I think that's the problem, isn't it? There's there's not enough rugby for these high, highly talented youngsters to be able to play at their top level. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

So you suddenly then have to start thinking about right, how do we get them game time? And I think that's where they are testing the water with these A-League games, these the under-23s league, those kind of things. And I do think that's where the champ has an opportunity, and I do mean an opportunity to tie itself to the future of Prem Rugby. Yeah, I think I I think everyone's got to have a bit of vision about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah. I do think it was interesting. Yesterday I was just perusing uh the socials, and I saw that England rugby were sharing some champ rugby content, and I thought, I think that's the first time I've seen that in a while.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

To be fair, they've I think on particularly on Instagram, they've shared quite a bit. They do quite a lot of grassroots stuff, but they also share a reasonable amount of champ stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Oh, good. Oh, good. That shows how much I pay attention to socials, but it's recognizable. Uh but yeah, it's it's an interesting space. Obviously, here at Roxmore's Overballs, we're gonna stay abreast of this issue because we're very intrigued of where this goes. Uh but perhaps uh more closer to home calendar terms, Rory. Let's move on to the transfer merry-go-round that seems to have commenced. Uh let me kind of summarise some of what's going on at the moment. So, Bath. Let's just go through the clubs. Bath, we know Thomas the Toy's leaving. Other than that, it's quite quiet. Bristol, James Dunn has already announced he's going to Harlequins. There's rumours of Benjamin Elzalge going to France, rumours of a chap called Toby Wilson coming in. Okay, that's fairly standard. Extra Chiefs, not a lot going on, loosely linked with Furbank, but I think that's mostly agent talk. Gloucester. Jack Morgan, Dowie Lake, Dan Robson already announced to coming in. Thomas Williams announced going out. Also linked with Kieran Hardy, but maybe that's I'm not sure whether that one's true. Quinn's James Dunn, as I mentioned before. Furbank, heavily rumoured to be going there from Northampton. Lester, George Martin's already announced going, Nikki Smith off to sale, rumoured to be getting Reese Carey and Dan Edwards in. Red Bulls linked with everyone. Uh, just basically any name will be linked with them. Saints, again, Furbank, that's the big name. Sam Graham, Robbie Smith linked out. James Ram, I've heard rumours. Sale, Joe Marchant coming back to the Prem. Woo! Potentially losing their last two to Priors. And Sarry's doing a fair bit. Tom Wheelers obviously gone. There's rumours of Elliot Daly, Alex Lazowski, Andy on Yama Christie all going to Red Bulls, as I said, everyone's linked to Red Bulls. Basically, normally this sort of stuff doesn't start until the new year, but it is it seems to have been going off and business is going on already. So, what what do you make of that from a fan perspective? That what feels like maybe an incredibly busy transfer yeah, and I don't know whether it's the Red Bull factor or whether it's the fact that finances aren't as tight as they have been factor, or it's just that weird point in a World Cup cycle where some players are out of contract and they've not made it to the English like their national team, so now looking at options. Like, what do you make of it?

Investors, RFU Council, And Long-Term Vision

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Well, I think the two certainly two of those points are definitely true. I think the Newcastle Red Bull factor is real. Um, you know, that we just you just gotta start recognising that there's a big pull to the to the northeast at the moment. Um, anyone out of contract is gonna be telling their agent, just float float something over there, see what they're offering. Um, I think the good news about the finances next uh coming up next year are are real. Uh they're thinking of something like a 200 million pound increase in revenue at the Prem, three clubs becoming solved or becoming profitable, I should say.

unknown 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Um rumours of TV deals, etc. That's you know, that's all uh those are the things that that definitely start to inflate agents' asks on wages, certainly. And I think clubs are probably having to get on top of that. You've heard Alex Sanderson talk about that with Alexa Chandler Cunningham South recently. Uh the quote was taking the piss. Um I wonder if the other element is clubs recognising the engagement opportunity with a bit of a transfer saga and a big signing. I love it. I love it. I think. And just doubling down on that. I would argue actually Gloucester haven't done a very good job of that this week with some big signings. They've just done some sort of quite um just a poster. Quite yeah, quite meager social media engagements. Particularly they've signed two Welsh rugby captains. You know, I'd felt like they should have gone bigger on that.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I'm surprised there hasn't been any kind of social media strategy around the announcement of Jack Morgan, who is potentially one of the best back rowers coming from Wales for a generation. Yeah. Maybe a bit of video, maybe just a little video recording. Like even the stuff they did last year.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Hopefully they got something lined up. At the moment, it's been pretty meagre.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, because last year Gloucester did quite a good job, I thought, without that kind of the messaging and saying, Oh, who's this coming to Gloucester? Like, but this is oh, here's a here's something they've drawn up in Canva. They're arriving.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Which might suggest that it's all been quite rushed and no one's been able to put a plan in place of how they deal with these things, but who knows?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Maybe maybe there was a race. Maybe there was a race to do it and get it announced, but still.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, not ideal from from that point of view. But there there's clearly been a bit of a jump on things. Um, I think there's there is a bit of a rush from clubs. I think everyone's realised everyone's in a race now to to get their players lined up for next season because anyone, you know, you could see what see what happened with the Red Bulls having to leave it so late because of waiting for the investment. You know, you can you can you can always tell the teams that didn't have the time to build their squad out as intelligent as they would have liked. Um, you know, gloss to this season just having to bring in so many players because they hadn't got everything lined up in time, you know, they just turned such a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Scatter gun, assign everyone and some of them might be good.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah, which you know is exactly what's happened. Um, but yeah, I don't know what the root cause necessarily is. I think it's probably a mixture of all of those things in some ways. But what I think is exciting is to see that the likes of Dewy Lake, Jack Morgan are coming into the league. I expect you know, Joe Marchant coming back into the league. Oh, I thought I thought one as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Faf de Klerk rumoured to Red Bulls as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Faf de Klerk rumoured, yeah. Yeah. And I you know, there's always broad rumours about the likes of Carl Sincler potentially coming back with an with an aim to get back in the squad for the World Cup. Jack Morgan's got a break clause in his contract to come and play in England for a year. Capoku. Capuku. I'm sure, you know, I'm sure people are looking at Kapoku to come to come back in. So, you know, maybe it's just a sign that the strength of the Premier is genuinely real.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Maybe, but as a fan of the transfer merry-go round, I will be keeping a very close eye on it. But I do think it's yet another sign of positivity going on because I th I think the transfer activity, the re-signings of contracts, I think it all points that clubs are more financially footed than people sometimes think. Um and I'm here for it, even if it does mean that uh George Furbank may leave Northampton Saints, which would be a sad, sad day for me. I hope it doesn't happen, Rory. But you know, you could be happy because you've got Jack Morgan and Darry Lake.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

It's it's the best better news we'd have for a little while, so I'm I'm I'm gonna sit here quite smug, even though that we're losing Tomos.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, yeah. Well, lots of incomings and outgoings to go through yet, but we'll keep everyone abreast, I'm sure. Now, before we get into the Champions Cup games, you may notice a theme with some of our summaries of these games. So, in aid of that, uh, I want to pose a hypothetical for you, Rory. Imagine a world, the EPCR, which is the organization that kind of governs and runs these competitions. Imagine that they all of a sudden decided they're going to run a purely democratic system where the leaders of the EPCR wholly elected from fans. What would be Rox Malls and Overball's manifesto for change in the EPCR to bring European back to the top of the table where it should be? Because let's face it, right now, it isn't. No.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Well, for my money, I think the simplest solution that requires the least amount of um change to the to the current structure is you simply go from four pools of six to six pools of four. You then have everyone plays everyone in their pool home and away, and the six winners plus the top two runners up proceed to a last round of eight. Sounds awfully familiar, Rory. Well, I'm the reason I've gone back.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

You're such a politician rolling out the old stuff, bringing it back round again. Where's the new stuff, Rory?

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Do you know what? Do you know what I thought? I thought there's only so many formats competition can take. Uh, we've tried several that have not worked. When did one work? Oh yes. When we had pools where everyone played at home and away, and we went into a genuine competitive knockout system where you had to impress in the pools to get through. That feels like the fairest way to do it. And what that then does, it makes the pool games genuinely exciting and genuinely competitive because there's an incentive to not just win it but to become one of the best runners up as it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

So every game has something.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

I will I will uh adopt my breast my best uh Laura Kunzberg uh impression, and I'll pose to you a challenge to that format in this current setup. Uh presently there are three leagues feeding this competition, six groups of four. That means there will be four teams in each group. That means each group will have two teams from one of the leagues. Yeah. How does that work? The same way it would work anyway.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

It's a why why I don't know why that would be a problem. I don't see why it's a problem.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Because it's boring. I don't want to draw Bristol in a European I'd played Bristol twice. I have to play twice in the league anyway. So? It's boring. Bring something new, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

More boring than the current format that no one's going to watch and no one's watching on the tele.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Well, let's face it, it it it could be just like the Premiership Rugby Cup.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

I mean, I don't think that's true. I don't think that I don't think that would be the case. You could you could make sure that it's in a format where there's as little clash because you because of the URC, you can format it in such a way that it's countries from different part diff it's teams from different countries within the URC generally that are filtered throughout the pools. So in that way, you could probably mitigate there being just you know lots of local trips. So whilst you you know, whilst you might end up playing there'll be URC teams that end up playing the same teams more frequently, they'll be playing them in Europe. So let's for example say the team is Leinster and you're another URC team in that, you will come against a different Leinster team because they don't play the same one in Europe as they do in the league.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

That's very true. I think here's an idea, Rory. What if you just reduce the number of Prem teams in the competition to six? And reduce the number of URC teams into the competition to six, and reduce the number of top 14 teams to number six, and you have six groups of three. Home away, home away, four games, top team goes through.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Same concept, but it's uh my challenge there would be that does dramatically reduce the number of games you can show on the telly. So my point the reason the reason why I went with my format is because you still get the same number of games, but more games would be more meaningful.

Pathways, A-League, And The Champ’s Role

SPEAKER_01 27:22

But as as someone who is a champion of forward thinking, maybe freeing up some space in the calendar will make room for our future 14 team league in this Prem franchise league.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yeah, that's I mean that's an argument. I'd say I would say on this occasion we're advocating for European competition, not the Prem. So we we have to slightly discount that from our thinking. Although I I accept that.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I accept that that's I'll remind you of what you said last week, Rory. More rugby doesn't equal better rugby.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

No, what I'm yes, I agree with that. And actually, I if it were just for me, I'd be more inclined to move towards what you're saying. The manifesto that I'm putting in place is one that I think works best for fans, broadcasters, and pubs, because you get you even if you end up not getting out of the pool stage, you still would end up with uh three home games.

unknown 28:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

So you still got three opportunities to make money on the tickets and the concessions, etc. You've still got that number of games to sell to a broadcaster, but you've now got a narrative you can sell for the pools for the pool matches. So the broadcaster isn't just effectively buying the knockout stages, which let's be honest, at the moment, Premier Sport is basically just paying for the knockout stages because no one's really interested in the pools. Oh, yeah, I'd argue no one's interested in the knockout stages, really. That's probably that's probably true, but certainly they're not interested in the pools. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

One final question for you, Rory, on your manifesto. Are the South African sides involved in your EPCR competitions?

SPEAKER_02 28:52

I think they have to be because they're part of the URC. I don't think you can I don't think you can have the South Africans involved in the URC and not involve them in European Cups. I think if we're being honest from a non-URC fan, that having the South Africans part of the URC has a has been a real problem for everyone else. And it's it's muddied this competition um in a way that we in a way that's sort of led to the point that we're at now where it's overly complicated and less and people less interested. But we can't control that at this point. I would I think even the South African fans, and based on some of the comments we've had on socials recently, they don't want to they want to go back to Super Rugby. Um which I get, I totally get why they would, because Super Rugby was better and the European Cup was better, but that being the case, but yeah, we are where we are.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

We are where we are, despite the fans being in disagreement. This is why I just thought I'd give you a chance to get it on the manifesto. But uh I understand your reasonings for keeping them in there because we don't govern the URC, so we can't tell them what to do with their competition if we were to be leaders of the EPE.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

No, if you're asking me for a manifesto as grand overlord of all rugby in the world, we've got a different conversation. But this is my manifesto purely for European competition.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

That's fair. Maybe we can cover that manifesto in another episode. Um but yeah, okay. I'm on board with the manifesto, Rory. You've got my rubber stamping. Uh listener, if you've got any other bright ideas about how you would change European rugby, please do let us know because uh we've enjoyed the interaction and the the comments below the line on our content this week where uh people have been quite emotive about the competition and its current.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Weirdly, not that many peltas are way.

Transfer Merry-Go-Round Heats Up

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Next to no peltas are way. Um broadly agreement. It's been incredibly uncomfortable to have just no one having a go at us. Uh it feels feels very strange, but uh that is why I'm doubling down on the content, Rory. Uh but yeah, okay. That is that's that for the section of the podcast where we aren't talking about rugby that's happened. We're moving on from what our theoretical rugby world is, and we're going to talk about rugby that happened this weekend, Rory. Now, as I said at the start, last week we tried to go through game by game. We rushed a little bit. We'll try and be a bit more selective, but what I'll do is I'll start off for the listener, in case you aren't aware, although I'm sure you all are, what the results of the game were. So I'll just run through them very, very quickly. So Leicester 15, Leinster 23, Stormers 42, Larochelle 21, Sharks 28, Saracens 23, Clemont 14, Sale 35, Bordeaux 50, Scarlet's 21, Munster 31, Gloucester 3. I'm quickly turning into uh the BBC Sports uh football results guy. Uh Glasgow 28, Toulouse 21, Harlequins, 68, Bayonne, 14, Karst 33, Edinburgh nil. Toulon, 45, Bath, 34, Northampton Saints, 50, Bulls, 5, Bristol Bears, 61, Section Palois, 12. Uh so there you go, listener. Those are the results that took place. Now, Rory, let's pick and choose the the results there that stood out the most to us, and let's talk about those games. So, first and foremost, which is the game you want to talk about more than any other game?

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Well, I think one of the big themes that uh listeners would have picked up from there is that there were only two away wins this week. So I I think we should go for one of those. And I think I'd like to start on Friday night with Tigers Leinster.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, I think that's a good place to start. Now, obviously, as you mentioned, away wins away wins, yeah, away wins have been a rare commodity this round. Um team selection, up for debate. One thing certainly not up for debate in this game was team selection, because I think this is two sides that actually did put out pretty much full strength sides, which was a rarity in this round. And uh I think it made for a grand old contest, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Uh made for a great game. Made for a great game. So um Leinster picking Harry Byrne at 10 for Sam Prendergast. I wonder if that's potentially something we'll see in uh in Ireland selection as well. I think there's from the conversations I've been I was having at the weekend, uh certainly everyone thinks that Gloucester signed the wrong Byrne brother, um, which I'd agree with. Uh but also a lot of talk about Sam Prendergast not living up to what they he was originally billed as, and probably being the third best fly half of the three at the moment. Um yeah, I'd agree. I thought this was possibly the most entertaining game of the weekend, Bath notwithstanding. Um, purely because this was the this was a proper competition. Um, Tigers obviously will come away disappointed not to have got a point out of this because they were certainly worthy of that. Yeah. Um I think I mean lots of players deserve um you know to be commended for their performance this one. I thought Billy Searle is continuing to to prove that he is a top-level prem fly half. I thought he's he was excellent again. Yeah, um Adam Radwan and Ollie Hassler Collins are or the Radwan try. The Radwan tries for not, but the Hassel Collins try was arguably more impressive for the footballing skills. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

If it feels like they've both got this like magic ability just to control a bouncing ropey ball that I've never been able to master. I don't know about you, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm you know, I was never much of a footballer, but these two lads have got some got some serious uh as as they say in the as they say in the world of football, they've got techers, they've got serious techers. Uh both both their tries were brilliant. Um, I thought the centres, Cater and Wands. Will Wand has really come on this season. He's been really, really good. Solomon Cata, his game stepped up, he's just looking much more well-rounded.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

He he looked very annoyed to be taken be uh when he was dragged off the pitch. I don't know if you saw the pictures.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yeah, I'm not sure it was a good move to take him off, unless there was a specific reason why they felt they had to get Orlando Bailey on, but they were better off with those two in the centres, I think. Yeah. Um Stewart, I thought, had a good game. Uh obviously tried to kill Jack Conan early on, um, but managed to um managed to get away with that one. Um, probably correctly, I think, to be fair. Yeah, it was a it was a slip, wasn't it? So yeah, it's kind of slipped slipped control. Yeah. Um and then in the pack, Nicky Smith and Joe Hayes immense, both at scrum time and and around the pitch. Am Henderson and Harry Wells, just proper old-fashioned lock performances. Harry Wells was in amongst it, constantly trying to stop fights. Proper, proper work horses. I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A bit very sort of classic Leicester lock play from the two of them.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

It was definitely a feisty match, and I'm guessing those two had a bit to do with that.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

They did. Well, I think Leinster came in with with real niggle. James Lowe was at the forefront of that, I think. Surprise. Caitlin Doris was in the ear of the referee every five seconds.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I personally think this game was maybe won or lost with the benches. Yes, and I think it's fair to say that like there's no slight on Archie Van der Fleer or Will Hurd, but they are not Abba Slamani, who was their third choice tight head because Tag Furlong had to pull out. Uh, and I think that that showed at the set piece in the latter part of the game, and I think that is basically the only reason Leicester didn't come away with a point, I think, because Leinster are able to arm wrestle their way in that final twenty.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Well, it's the old charge leveled against Prem teams versus well, particularly Leinster, but a lot of the European teams, Leinster in the top 14 particularly, that prem teams don't have the ability to hold squads in the same way to have that bench impact. Um, and you know, it it was it was born true on this one, but you know, Leicester obviously uh missing Claire to come on at Ocaretta, bring on Theobald Thomas, who threw a couple of skewed ones at the lineup, which hurt momentum. Um, you know, didn't have Terra Cathar to come on at loose head, so Archie Van der Fleer, probably third or fourth choice loose head for them. Um missing Jack Van Porfleet at nine. I think Whiteley struggled a little bit with his kick in, yeah, and then bring on Allen later on, you know, as a young lad. Parise missing in the centres, um, even as a bench option. Yeah, you know, you can just see how how injuries do hurt and prem teams a bit more in that sense, yeah. But you know, that's that's the nature of European competition, and you know, I I think Leinster came away, would have come away from that game thinking they probably got away with one. Um yeah, I think it was it was close call. It wasn't easy for them. No, it wasn't easy, and they struggled a bit of scrum time at times, they struggled to get go forward. I mean, Leicester target's defence was something else, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Oh, yeah, that their defence was monstrous, and I think we've seen we've kind of seen that all season. It seems like they the game plan at the moment is built off just having an incredibly reliable, strong defence. And then I I think Leinster really struggled, definitely in the first half, to really get much go forward at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Yeah, they're also pretty inaccurate, you know. Very inaccurate. I I thought James Lowe had a quite a poor game.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Um that's a shame.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah, I know. You know, he's butchered opportunities to put Keller in, you know, he was kicked one out on the fall, and you know, generally was it generally just felt quite poor from from him on this one. I thought the pack, you know, just inaccurate at things like the breakdown, things you sort of expect from Leinster to be absolutely rock solid at that the breakdown and their their little passing patterns just weren't quite there.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I I have seen some I have seen some fans suggest this is part of a lions hangover. Do you reckon that plays a part for Leinster?

SPEAKER_02 38:52

If it does, I don't have a lot of sympathy with it.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

No. Oh boo hoo, you had several players on the Lions tour that you're now able to roll out after you've given them an extended break of the URC. Bo is Leinster. Um what else is there to go off of this game other than a well-avoided banana skin for Leinster? They they were able to get the win.

EPCR Manifesto: Format, Pools, And SA Teams

SPEAKER_02 39:16

I think I think the the story for a lot of people in this game, a lot of people watching this game, should be that Leinster are not the infallible team they were a few years ago. And they they're by no means you know an easy game to come up against. You know, they are not a weak team, but they are more vulnerable than they have been for some time. And I would like to see more teams going into games against Leinster in this competition with almost an expectation of coming away with a result rather than just hoping for the best. Because I think you actually I think you can actually go into a game with Leinster right now and think we've got more than a punch chance to of getting getting through this one.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah, I think yeah. This season there they're a team you don't go into thinking damage limitation, you should be a team you're going into and saying this is an opportunity. Yeah. I think Leicester almost got that right. Uh I th I think yeah, as we said, I think the the bench their injury problems where a few key players missing, it may have been a different story. Um but yeah, I think they've given hope to others. Leinster.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

I think they have, you know, you put put into that less putting into that Tiger squad, Liebenberg and Chesham, George George Martin, arguably, um uh your man the the number eight, the worst number eight, god his name's just escaped me.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Krakenel.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Cracknell, only cracknell, Ilyone, right? These are stalwart Leicester players they were missing, and they still push Leinster the whole way. So, you know, I don't think any other team should get should go into a game with Leinster not thinking they can get something out of this. You know, Quinn's got four tries against Leinster in Dublin, yeah. Not with their strongest team. So there's a lot of reasons to think there's there's there's blood in the water here.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Yeah, I I just hope this isn't a missed opportunity for the two Prem sides because I suspect Leinster may only get stronger when it comes to the next round of champs cups, because uh that maybe they would have got a bit of that post-Lions fog out of the brain, maybe they're a bit more game time together in URC if they get selected. Uh perhaps it's a missed opportunity, or perhaps Leinster really are there for the taking this year. Uh that will remain to be seen. Now, Rory, if I was to give you the option to uh pick another game to analyse, we've now looked at Leinster's 2315 victory over Leicester. Uh where should we take our audience to next?

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Or should we go for the other away victory? Should we go for Sale away at Claremont?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

That feels appropriate. Let's go with Sale versus Claremont. And this probably was for me maybe the biggest surprise of the round. Yeah. Maybe Bar Glasgow. Um I was not expecting Sale to go there with the injury problems they've got, the selection they put out, and to really do a number on Clermont.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Absolutely did a job on them, didn't they? They were brilliant. Um, I'll say it right at the top, the purple kit's growing on me.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Because you were on it. Uh not initially, but I think now I quite like it. It looks quite good. That's good. Uh I you know, you I think to a man they were fantastic. Um, you know, that is a strong Claremont side. You know, the likes of Simone, Moala, Racer, Phoel, you know, in the back line, Tollifua, Kremer, Simmons, you know, is a big, strong, powerful Claremont outfit.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

To go away and to score five tries and demolish them by over 20 points is yeah, for me, the biggest, biggest upset of the week. Possibly the biggest upset of the tournament so far. Yeah. With when you look at who's missing from that sales squad across the board, you know, not even you know, it's they're missing obviously George Ford, they're missing probably their two of their first choice back three, they're you know, they're missing Tom Curry, uh, they're missing uh one of the DePrier brothers, yeah, they're missing Luke Cowandicke, Bevan Rodd, Ashra Poker for journew, their entire starting front row.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Yeah. I think that puts it more into perspective than anything. Like they've got they've brought in short-term cover like cover on their bench in that uh Gershwin Vare. Like, I've never heard of him, but he's he's he's their only back cover on the bench because they are that threadbare at the moment. And to go to Claremont, and Claremont are one of the teams that used to be a powerhouse in this competition, like genuine powerhouse, and the idea of beating them at home in the group stages was something that just didn't happen. So for Sale to go there, I think the thing with Sale that I like to draw out is their defence, their tackling, I think is unparalleled in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Yeah, possibly probably actually to be honest. I mean, their commitment to the cause is is something something different, whatever their psychological coaching is around their defence, it's unbelievable their commitment to their uh defence. I mean, one of the things I I noticed, I mean, there was a massive hit where Rafi Quirk and Alex Wills doubled up on someone on the edge. Um, I think it was it was certainly one of the bigger backs for Claremont, and they absolutely levered him between them. You know, these are the two probably the two smallest backs on the pitch at this point. Yeah, just absolutely levered him, and you just watched I mean you're not getting through that today.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

No, I I think what it is, I think they're probably the most comfortable side out of possession. They just seem to just they they don't have any issue with not having the ball, and I think that's where it stems from. Like of so I did the stats earlier this week, of the top tacklers in the competition in the first two rounds, five of the top ten, no right, the top five in the top ten are all Sharks players. With Ernst Van Raijnst Van Rain by himself has made 53 tackles in just two games of rugby.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Well, they made something like 280 tackles last week against Glasgow, and it was like 130 more than the next biggest tacklers. Yeah, it's ludicrous.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

It is insane, and I but I think it's borne out of the fact of how comfortable they are in defense and just not having the ball well.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

I wonder if it's more partly born out of that, but also partly born out of an acknowledgement where because of the injuries they've got and the lack of continuity they've got in attack, they've gone, well, we can't build a cohesive attack very well at the moment because we don't know who's playing week to week. We can definitely build a cohesive defense, we can do that, so we'll just defend our way to winning the game, and they which they sort of have done this week.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah, yeah, I think so. And it's also nice to see Rafi Quirk, I thought had one of his better games. Once again, Rux balls and oval balls putting the positive curse on a player. The second we say anything negative, they will have their kind of upturn. And it's not the only person this week who's done that.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Um, so yeah, I thought it was Rafi's best performance I've seen for quite some time, possibly since sort of the the big injuries he had he had, really. I I don't remember you know the number of breaks he made in this, even when he went to had to go play fullback for a bit. You know, he he was making breaks constantly, he looked strong, he looked quick, his passing was really good. Yeah, um, you know, really took the pressure off Rob Deprey. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

And I think it's it's it's that heads-up rugby that he was really good at, uh as coaches call it. So, yeah, you're welcome, Rafi Quirk, and Salesharks fan. We've given you that good juju. Um, but ultimately, yeah, this ultimate this this victory was built on just monstrous defence and just unrelenting tackling.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

They just pressure Clermont was so sloppy. I mean, you could see Christophe Urios on the on the sideline with his daart glasses just getting more and more frustrated at how many unforced errors they were making. And it was just it was the constant pressure and harassment from sale. Yeah, you know, they've um it was right before half time. They Cleremont had two opportunities in the 22 to take, you know, they went down, I think it was 20 points to seven to sale at half time. So they had uh they had two guilt-edged opportunities to score a try and sort of bring it within a score, and they messed, they messed it up on both occasions, and then you know, sale scored first after halftime, yeah. And it just it was just sloppiness from then, yeah. Just knocking balls on at the wrong time, kicking out on the full, you know, just really you know, missing a penalty kick to touch, kicking that one out on the full, you know. It yeah really, really poor stuff.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah, and I th and I wonder uh that's probably mostly born out of well, some of it concentration, but the other I think it is the defensive pressure. Uh and I think Sale, I think we've seen this year that seems to be, and maybe it is born out of their selection whereas is that that's their blueprint this year.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Is well the the bedlow try came from pressure on the back line. Clermont pulled the ball back too far and you know, he just kicked it down the other end. You know, it yeah, it all just comes from from defensive pressure, and you know, it it's quite often that the most effective defense wins titles. They might not win every game, but they tend to gravitate towards winning titles and trophies because you do that more often, you're more likely to win than not.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yeah, absolutely. So uh yeah, sales sharks are onto a winner there, and you know, after their home defeat to Glasgow, where I thought, oh, that's them, that's them done in this competition. They're right back in it, they're right back in it uh in that group, and uh although they have got a very tough group, uh they've given themselves a real shot at making the next round, because you know, basically everyone makes the next round in this format anyway. Uh okay, so we've covered the two away victories. Sale winning 35, 14 against Clermont in Clement. Before we go off to our stable Prem clubs, I would like to draw your attention to the other surprising result. Uh, for most, I think, maybe not those north of Hadrian's wall. Uh Glasgow 28, Toulouse 21. Yeah. What did you make of this game, Rory?

SPEAKER_02 49:04

It's interesting. Um, in in some ways, and you know, for good reason, this is the story of a massive Glasgow turnaround in the second half, right? Where they score four tries in 20 minutes and go from 21-0 down to 28-21 up. Yeah. And at the top level, that is the story of it. What I actually thought watching this one was how well Glasgow played pretty much throughout this game. And in the first half, they were just not accurate enough at the right times and gave Toulouse kind of the opportunity to either turn the ball over, or in the case of uh I think it was Gorghese's uh first try, there was a knock-on and Toulouse just sort of snatched the ball and just it was a complete smash and grab.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Um in the second half, what happened was Glasgow tightened it up and they were so direct and so physical. Um, they were just battered to lose it. You don't see it often. No, I thought they were good throughout the whole game, really. Um, but particularly when the weather came in as well.

Results Roundup: Big Scores And Few Away Wins

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Also, I'm just I'm glad you said that down the door. I'm glad you said that were it, because I'm not buying the story that some people are saying that it's just because of the wind at Scotston. Because I think Glasgow were good for it regardless of the weather. Because if you look at the way the way they were playing, they weren't in the second half when they were dominant, they weren't playing territory and kicking the ball along and using the wind. They were they were just uh carrying relentlessly, getting over the gain line, ball in hand, quick, quick, quick uh ruck speed, and didn't give Toulouse any room to breathe, to regather, and they didn't have an answer for it. And that's how they got those four tries because Toulouse just didn't know how to respond to it.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

No, I agree, I agree. I think they were um I think they were just very direct with the ball. They I mean they did kick well. Yeah, but but I actually I you know I'd be more interested to know the carrying stats of the likes. I thought Stafford McDowell was phenomenal. Uh Tupolotu was was as good. I mean, you know, he obviously scored, um, scored as well, but I thought he was just generally the way he knit the knit the uh the play together, the way he carried directly when he could, it was brilliant. But then also the carries, you know, the the carrying of the both Faguson brothers.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Well, do you think both do you want some do you want some carrying stats? Hit me. Well, so Xander Faguson made 17 carries, Matt Faguson, uh 12 carries, Jack Dempsey, 15 carries, Rory Down, 15 carries, uh Staffan McDowell, 11, uh Sioni Turpilotu, 10. Considering he was mostly anonymous in the first half. That is all the second half. Adam Hastings, 10 carries. Uh who else? Scott Cummings, Greg or Gregor Brown, how good was he when he came on? So good when he came on. So good when he came on. I think it just it just shows how direct they were because they were they were just in their faces.

Leicester vs Leinster: Fine Margins And Benches

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Yeah, that's those aren't the stats of a team that's kicked the leather off it all go.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

No. Uh I've when I've looked at the stats, you can tell the teams and the games that has been a lot of ping-pong. That was not a ping pong kicking game in any way, shape, or form. So I I thought I thought Toulouse spooked in the second. And it was odd because this was supposed to be the great return of Anton DuPont and Roman Untermach, and they didn't have an answer for it. Yes, DuPont had a great like his read of the Flamont break and to kind of be at the end of that. Yes, that is a sign of DuPont's genius. Yes, brilliant. Big tick to DuPont. I think other than that moment, he was mostly, you know, human rather than superhuman than he normally is.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

He he didn't he didn't really shine uh beyond that. I thought the two centres were pretty good, Gorges and Costes.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Gorges and so that's so that from a English fan perspective is a scary prospect because they're both what, eleven?

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Uh yeah, I think yeah, ten or eleven, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Ten or eleven.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

Um Costes, the son of a former Toulouse and France player, um, but roa. Um yeah. Looks very similar to his dad, actually. Uh yeah, cut this given given the other young centres that we've talked about in recent weeks, you know, Deporter and they've got a few.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Um guy tones have two very, very good young centres, uh, especially I think Gorgaz looks a bit special for sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah, he does. He does. Um scary thing for Toulouse their chance that it looks like they're gonna sign Menancello for next year as well. Oh because you know, they needed that.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Um just what they need. Um, but you know, they can have all the players they want in the world. Glasgow have again similar theme here to Leinster. Toulouse are beatable. Maybe they've portrayed what the blueprint is that to lose, don't know what to do when you are direct, you keep it close, and you just do not give them room to breathe.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

Um you have to be relentless and you have to run with real intent. I think what I felt what watching games over the weekend in general, it's it's frustrating when you watch teams with watch players who don't carry accelerating contact, and it's weird how often it it is. You know, you're all you're sort of always taught to accelerate into contact. It's weird how often you see t players not do it. Yeah, yeah. Dorasco did it pretty much all game. Um, I want to give a special shout out to Jamie Doby, actually, who I thought was excellent at nine and almost better when he went onto the wing.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Yeah, that guy's turned into a properly class operator, yes, and he is an ideal weapon to have in terms of the this modern day utility player, because I think he is just as good on the wing as he is at Scrum Half. And I thought George Horn, fair play to him, he probably didn't like being dropped for Jamie Doby, but he came on and he had a big influence on that second half as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Huge influence, yeah. Yeah, I I I can't fault anything Glasgow really did on this game. I mean, don't be wrong, Toulouse were were very particularly the first sort of 10-15 minutes, they were all over them. Yeah, yeah. I actually thought Glasgow played pretty well for a lot of that first half, just weren't getting the kind the kind of breaks. Um then Toulouse didn't really do much until Gorges' second try, which is about five minutes or so before the end. Didn't really do much between their sort of second and third try.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

No. Um oh sorry Rory, my doorbell's gone.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

Oh, here we go, listener. Here we go. I wonder what it is this week. It's it says Bollinger and it says the blood of the poor. Trusted, who knew you could get that delivered? Presume that's some sort of cocktail mix. I mean, it's really outrageous, actually. We set these times up at you know quite you know, quite a bit in advance, you know. Enough time to know that he's a delivery G. God, I think the post was brought a whole van to this door.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

I'm back, I'm back, I'm back. Apologies. It was the very friendly every deliverer driver uh who is delivering some Christmas shopping that has not been done by me, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Excellent, um no, I think I think to sum up this game, Glasgow immense. Uh Toulouse pretty average, actually. Um, but the Toulouse bandas that they brought along, phenomenal. Enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. French away fans. This French away fans this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

But I thought that would be because I they're all dressed in kilts. I thought I assumed it was Glasgow fans.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

Oh, well, I assumed it was the bandas is obviously a big tradition in southern in southern French teams. I assume they would have come along, and they're not averse to dressing up.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

So maybe, maybe, maybe we'll have to dig into that one. But I agree, either way, whichever side they're from. More of that, please, because we like it. But yeah, all that that opens up that group nicely. Uh Glasgow, all of a sudden, in a very strong position in that group, I would say. Uh so let's let's move on to more home territory, Rory. Uh I think a game that I'm keen to talk about, uh, and I will admit I've only seen the highlights of it, is the Sharks Saracens game. Because I want to draw attention to what is maybe a bit of a theme with away teams not sending their strongest. Saracens didn't send their very strongest side here, and they very nearly beat a very strong Sharks team. So does it beg the question?

SPEAKER_02 56:55

I I would see this as a massive missed opportunity for Saracens. Um it was a it was a very wet and slippery day in Durban. Uh it was a game pretty well set up for a Saracens type performance. It was very subtle for someone like an Owen Farrell to control. Um, the Sharks they they weren't bad. You know, obviously they won the game. Um, their scrum was massive, dominated Saracens. Um but when you look at the two teams, and obviously Saracens weren't bereft of all their stars, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:29

No, they had some.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

You look at the look at the Sharks team, see just how how many South Africa caps are in are in there, and how many players who've been talked up as potential South Africa caps are in there. They should have won that one relatively comfortably. Yeah. And I think they rather got away with it. Um they they profited from having a bigger pat, particularly early on. Got them all tra after a few minutes. Um, but really they they they were quite average in attack, but unless Andre Esther Hazen made ground, they didn't really offer anything in attack, I thought. Um, Tom Willis, this is the this game was one where I I had that thought of oh shit, we are actually genuinely really gonna miss him through because he was spittling players in the carry.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah, unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to go a week without praising Tom Willis because he is just that good.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Um phenomenal, and he was he was phenomenal in this game. Um, you know, when you think about what it takes to beat the spring box, and you think we're not gonna have Tom Willis try and do that, you think uh we're in we're potentially in trouble here.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

He was so good. He he would be mighty useful against a springbox in an English show, that's for sure. Uh I thought Theo Dan had a good game as well. One of his generally good.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

I still think his darts are not good enough.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

Oh, yeah, but well, it's a little bit of a theme that I want to draw on with some of the other premiership sides, maybe, uh, with how poor some of the line out work has been. Um but yeah, I I I completely wholeheartedly agree that I feel like this is a completely missed opportunity, and this is such a huge failing in this current certainly in this season's format where teams are sending weaken sides when they could have just gone and got a bloody win and put themselves in a better position than the group to get a better home draw, to get more money through the door, more money on merchandise, more money on tickets, but for some reason they're not interested in trying to top the group, they're just like, oh, we'll qualify. It was fine.

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Well, it and it's not even to denigrate the players that were brought in because I thought uh I thought Harry Wilson was really good at second row, I think carried really well. Yeah, um, I think you know the Saracens back row, you know, obviously didn't have Gonzalez, they didn't start L but was still excellent. Uh I thought Lee Hartley in particular at 12 was superb. Yeah, Sam Spink didn't have as much impact with it, did score a try. Yeah, um Bracken at nine was excellent. Fergus Burke, not brilliant, not his best game, but you know, average wasn't his best game, but it was fine, but just it's If you just think of the players you could the players you could add into that squad, you know, Reese Carey, Marowatoge, Tizar didn't start, Gonzalez not there, Farrell in particular, Nick Tompkins. He just Van Ziel, you know, 100% Calorey, you know, they 100% could have won that game. Yeah, yeah. Because the the Sharks were not that good. They were they had a stronger pack in the set piece, but they weren't that the pack wasn't particularly effective around the pitch. You know, 100% Saracens could have won that one.

unknown 1:00:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

Just feels like a completely missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

I completely agree. And it's just uh it is frustrating that like us pointing pointing the finger at maybe the top 14 or the URC last week for sending weaken teams, we're doing it as well. And we're not we're not the Prem is not doing their bit to try and make this competition elite as I would like them to. And I just look at that and think, Saracens, you've missed a huge flaring opportunity to take hold in a group to try and get a home draw in the next round of the knockout games, and you're just kind of it's it's what a I know that it's probably targeted this as one of their rest weeks for some of their internationals, maybe. I that's the only thing I can think of, but for some of the players they're resting, they don't have enforced rest weeks. Like Tompkins, there's not an enforced rest week, Gonzalez, there's not an enforced rest streak, Carey, there's not an enforced rest week. So it's it's a choice rather than enforced. Uh and it's like I thought most teams would want to go and win every game. And it's I get the feeling that they're not bothered about losing games, which is a harsh, harsh criticism of any professional sportsman. But it's hard to see it any other way because it's a glaring opportunity. Perhaps uh more do we talk about Glass Gloucester here, Rory?

Sale Shock Clermont With Relentless Defence

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Well, let me give you sort of a bit of a my my thoughts on this one because well I know I know I know your headline worst game of rugby. Yeah, genuinely uh the worst game of rugby I've ever paid to go and watch. I mean appalling, and both sides. The the only thing more disappointing than Gloucester was Munster. Yeah, because the Gloucester side that turned up, Munster should have been playing some Jouet Jouer Jouet, and they were dreadful. They couldn't string three passes together. They were bad, yeah. Um, it it was appalling, and it everyone thought so. Um, the game was at the GAA, new GAA statement, so there's about 40,000 people there, roughly. That's what they said they were there, probably more at 35. Yeah. Um, very flat atmosphere to say, um, really suffered for not being in Tom and Park, the atmosphere. Um, and you know, if you look at the when the tries were scored, so uh Kelly scored on 20 minutes, Haley scored on uh 51 minutes. To be honest, the first try came, you could argue, probably a bit against the runner play, but you know, that would have been exaggerating to say that any team had a play. Um probably came from maybe the one of only two bits of quality in that game from a very nice Nankerville float. Yeah, yeah. Probably probably the only bit of real quality that came out of the game. Yeah, uh Haley scored off um a ball that was kicked very short, then bounced over everyone's heads into the backfield just to then run it, run in and finish it off. But at that point, you know, Gloucester were very much in the fight for it. Not they weren't playing well by any show. So I'm not gonna suggest they were playing well, but given that if you look at the team, you had the two Knight brothers in the centres with a combined age of uh under 40, Josh Hathaway on his first game back, uh Mike Austin, a third choice scrum off starting, uh Jack Clement and Arthur Clark on their first games back, Jamal Ford Robinson on his first game back, you know, very, very much a second or third choice in pretty much every position at the moment. Yeah um Munster were full bore.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah, I think that should be more disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:52

And honestly, I mean it wasn't it wasn't until Gloucester brought on basically the school boys for the last 20 minutes that they managed to pull away and make it look a more um comprehensive score line. It was appalling, and every and I'm not gonna everyone thought so at the stage. Every monster fan I talked to was like, we're actually delighted you didn't bring a first team because you'd beat us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah, it would have been again missed opportunity if Gloston.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

It's complete a complete missed opportunity because actually you had Thomas Williams and Seb Atkinson at least into their back line. That suddenly becomes a very different prospect. Yeah, um I would have started Cot Grieve over Rob Russell, who was rubbish. Um didn't want to say anything, but yeah, just dreadful. I don't I don't know what I don't know what we thought we were doing when we signed him, he was rubbish. Um yeah, I I just I couldn't have been more disappointed by the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Yeah, and Court Chopper weekend brilliant, rugby awful, and whoever made the decision for Gloucester to wear red and Munster to wear pink. Give your head a wobble.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Uh, because that was honestly when they came out, we sort of all sort of looked at each other and went, because we'd announced we'd be wearing our European kit. We'd literally announced we were gonna wear our black European kit and then didn't, and I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Yeah, well, you know, why wouldn't the home team wear their home colours in a home game against the team that's announced they're not wearing their home kit? Just let them wear red. That's what Munster thought, probably. Uh but yeah, well, less said about that, the better. Uh perhaps let's move on to a more maybe optimistic story for some fans. I know we've got a bit of a listenership in the Queens fan space. I think they'll be feeling a bit happier this week, albeit playing the Gloucester equivalent in France of Bayon, who seemed to uh yeah, this was um a bit of a training run, wasn't it? Yeah, I I don't feel there's too much to draw analysis-wise from this fixture, other than it was a lovely exercise for Harlequin's backs to work on a few backs moves. Uh Marcus Smith had a good game.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

I think I think I think the things I would I would highlight in this game was uh Northmore and Beard again looked really good. Um particularly Northmore, actually. Yeah, I thought it was one of I thought it was probably his best game of the season since the summer. Yeah. Cassius Cleese still on the comeback trail, looking really, really dangerous in the wing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

Do you want he reminds me a little bit of Prime Oli Sleightholm?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Uh yeah, I could see that. I can see that, you know, look just a finisher, big physical finisher.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

And fights fights for extra yards. It's uh it's a good quality, it's by no means a negative.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

Um, I think I think Caden Murley is growing more and more into a leadership role, looks really good as a captain and you know, played really well. And uh Zach Carr at eight, I'm continuing to be impressed by his development this season, has been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

You can see why those positive noises in the preseason were I think we're starting to see it in the more competitive fixtures now. Because I think he he definitely has had his best game since pre-season in a Queen shirt, uh albeit against a buy-on side that I really yeah. I don't know a great deal about the side they put out, but there's a reason for that, and that's because not many do.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

Um I felt for um the lad on the right wing, Thompson. Uh it was his pre pr professional debut. He's come through the system as a back rower, and in his first game, they picked him on the wing. Yeah. And the three times I noticed him on the pitch, he got he um shelled two high balls and then slipped over as uh uh I think it was Benson, did a sort of dummy dim, and he sort of literally just fell on his face. Yeah, maybe he'll go back to the back row now. Um, yeah, uh it felt really bad for him. Um I thought spring at 10 was interesting to watch, quite a rangey mobile 10, maybe a future leader.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

Yeah, so yeah, I think he might have been that little bit of quality that they obviously have.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Um yeah, uh, but the lad who replaced on about an hour, uh Boyle Tier Tier, uh the son of Istier Tier, um, who I think is a Tongan player, yes, um who played quite a lot, quite a lot, a lot of rugby in that area, I think, for Poan Bayonne making his debut. So nice to see a little bit of a family heritage coming through. Um Aratheta at eight, young lad from Spain. He looks pretty good to be fair. He did look pretty handy, you know. He looked, yeah, he looks relatively on the handy side. Um Maury at 12, the Italian, still looks still looks handy. Yeah, you know what you get. Yeah, not yeah, not much else to say about this one, really, other than you know, Quinn's had an opportunity to go and do a job on someone and they managed it. You know, it was a bit of a bit of a training run for them, but you know, you still got to put the put away what's in front of you. Yeah, nice for Kieran Treadwell to score a crossfield.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:34

That I liked that. That the the smile on his face told you everything you needed to know about. He was delighted, wasn't he? He was delighted. Uh quite uh and it was well, to be fair, uh, it was a lovely crossfield kick. You couldn't couldn't have done that any better. Although uh gorgeous. It was gorgeous. So before we get on to the other two games that are kind of bit of routes in favour of Prem Slides, should we dig into Toulon Bath? Because that was probably a pretty tasty fixture.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:01

Yeah, uh this was this was an excellent game actually. Really tuned and throwed. Um interesting to see what happens when Bath come up against a pack that can match them physically.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

In recent weeks, we've seen a little bit of I've said it before, the blueprint of beating these big teams. So we saw it of Leicester and how they kind of met Bath up front, and that kind of gave them that rarest of victories in the Prem. And I think we're starting to see Bath are beatable, and it is it is down to are you able to respond to the pack? Now I'm sure there's Bath fans who will point to a few players who weren't playing. Obviously, they're missing Will Stewart, Thomas DeToy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Sorry, can I just pull up the world's smallest violin? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For the Bath Squad.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Yeah, for the Bath squad really depleted. Uh where that you know they've they've had to start one of the hottest properties in young English propping in Billy Seller as their starting tight head, and they've had to bring in one of the most exciting second rows that we've been shouting about you and Richards in for Charlie Yules.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Uh, you know, you know, they've got four players who've had quite a lot of involvement in the premise.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

They've had to rotate their squad and bring Ted Hill into the back row. You know, it it's hard times for Bath fans, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could say, I mean, I could see why they'd be crying about it. Um, well the thing, the thing is, they got matched at the scrum, they got matched at the mall.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

And actually, um it's interesting to see that Bath are slightly struggling with plan B, I think at the moment. Um, not entirely struggling with plan B. You know, there's still some really good moments. The Arthur Green tribe was excellent, the Hennessy tri was excellent. Um, but you know, they they they are struggling with with plan B. And I think the conversation we had recently about Finn Russell.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:44

Uh he's not looking his best, is he?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

Well, the was it the Alanoese tribe where he's just so casual in the backfield and they end up having to hack it its touch and um they maul it over really easily. Yeah, yeah. That comes from Finn Russell just being too casual again. I I don't know how you manage Finn Russell, right? There are there are top-level coaches who will know better than me how you manage that personality in old-fashioned parlance. He looks like he needs a rocket put it in. Yeah. Because at the moment he doesn't look like he's at the races.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:19

Yeah, and I know we're not the only one saying this. I've seen quite a lot of people pointing the finger at Finn Russell's form, and this is where I've drawn uh so people are suggesting maybe this is Lions Tour hangover, but this isn't the first time Finn Russell's been like this, is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:34

Ask Gregor Townsend. At at the moment, it just feels like he's not his head's not in it. Um, and to be honest, when you've got Santi Carreras in that squad who can step in at 10, is that what's needed?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:47

Yeah, I think he just he he needs a week on the bench. Yeah, remind him that it's not a sure thing. Because it's yeah, I I completely agree. I think the old yeah, the old parlance rocket up him. It does feel that way because he doesn't seem to have that um what's the word I'm looking for? He's not he's not alert to things, he's not on he's just not on it. You just you're not getting that feeling that he's he's not up for it.

Glasgow Overrun Toulouse With Direct Carrying

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

He's not on it, he's not motivated. Yeah, he look yeah, he looks like someone who doesn't who isn't very motivated at the moment. Um yeah, in fairness, he puts Santi Carreras in. You know, he's not like he's he's doing nothing in games, but when you think he's one of the highest paid rugby players in the world, yeah, he is one of the most storied and talked about tens in recent years, he he's got to be doing better than he is at the moment because he his his his whole uh reason for being in this team is to get Bath over the line to win trophies in games like this. Yeah. And at the moment, I don't think he's doing that. I don't think he's pulling his weight at the moment. Um at the same time, uh, in fairness, this is a good Toulon side. It is a good Toulon side. And uh Lucese, I thought was really good. I think it was return. Um, I think he'd been out for a while. Uh Gross at Lucid. I mean, uh early on it like he was gonna give Billy Seller a really torrid time. Actually, Billy Seller came back quite well in the fight. I think Seller did, but that Gross was still pretty pretty effective around the pitch as well. Carl Sinkler was phenomenal, really reminded everyone, I think, of what a good player he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

He was he was so good, they did that rare thing of just not sobbing, not subbing him off because he was worth keeping on the pitch for 80 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:30

Yeah, Lewis Ludlam, excellent. Well, he just absolutely such a physical I forgot how physical he is. He's so strong. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, you can see why England coaches have liked him in the past, just really, really come from a really good, really good stock. Yeah, fair play. Uh Charles Olivon, nice to see him back. He's again, you've forgotten what good player Charles Olivon is. Uh Zach Mercer still probably not quite there, but looking a little bit closer to being back there than he has done.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

Yeah, I think I think he just he likes playing in France. I think that's what it is. I think when he when he was playing last week in Scotland, it was a bit close to England, so it kind of got to him, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

Yeah, I think that that's probably fair. Um, but you know, uh Toulon's tries by and large came from physicality up front and creating massive dents in the bath defence, you know. Dreen's try came from Carl Sinkler basically sniping down the fringes and making a massive dent in the defence. Yeah, you know, they got two more tries. Um Sludlum's try came from a massive scrum.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

Yeah. I think Toulon looked like a team that had had a bit of a beasting this week after their beating by Edinburgh because they they were night and day compared to what they were.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:41

Yeah, they were much better than they were last week. And you know, but just look at the names, you know, Sunzell, Brex, Tuasuva, Serran, you know, that is a backline of look.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On their day, they'll beat anyone. That it's that sort of team. Uh but I think uh certainly since you know the post-Wilkinson era, that's always been the criticism pointed at Toulon is that it's a team of superstars that turn up when they want to. Um like Finn Russell wouldn't be uh would suit the Toulon game style. Like you turn up when you want to, but you don't necessarily turn up every week. Uh but they certainly turned up this week and they uh they matched Bath, they put Bath to the sword, and they they were they were worth the victory. Uh but I think Bath I think they'll be happy to come away with a bonus point.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

Uh I'm sure this would have been one of the games they they would have probably recognised that they had a chance of not winning this one, to be fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well considering But I just thought it was it was uh for what you th what we know Bath to be capable of, I still think a fair disappointing performance from there by their standards.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Bath at this point, with the squad they got, they should be aiming to win every game. Um and they did try. I'm not uh so it's probably not the same boat as the Saracens criticism, because I think Bath did still put out a relatively strong squad. Yeah, they did they did. I think uh other than Carl Smith, who's who did a pretty good job to be fair to him, in places. Yeah, yeah. So it's by no means a criticism, but obviously the strongest Bath squad does have Ben Spencer in it. Uh but other than that, I think it was just the bench, which arguably they looked Bath did still look pretty handy when their bench came off. I should say Arthur Green, Louis Hennessy, they all look pretty handy. So maybe it's one that got away, but I think Toulon had the answer for them this week. But the competition rolls on, at least it wasn't a gimme, like these next two games we'll talk about. Let's start with Northampton Saints against Bulls. Uh 50 points to five.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:37

Uh yeah, know better than me. You'll know better than me, I I would think, because you'll have you'll have looked into this. How close to the Bulls first team was that?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Not very. There's some. No. There's some.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:49

So there's things I recognise in there, but I don't know the bath squad, the uh the bull squad as well as I between which.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:55

So the likes of like Elwig Lowe was it would definitely be kind of a starter. Uh Van Hierden, their second row. Ludwig, uh arguably be uh in there, uh Marcel Kurtsey would not probably be.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

The slight problem I also have is the number of South Africans. It's it's quite like what seeing a Welsh team where a lot of them have the same name. Yeah, so because I see I see Vander Merva on there. I go, well, which Van Der Merva is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

So like let me read out some of the names that weren't there. So Kurtley Arenze, he's obviously a name you're Seb De Klerk, we took spoke about last week being rapid, he wasn't there. Uh Cameron Hanekum, we've not seen him yet. Cornell Hendricks, David Creel, he was not there. Wilco Lowe, Kanan Moody, Ruan Nausea, who else Hondre Pollard wasn't playing. Yeah, who else? Who else? Gerhard Steenerkamp, uh a lot of players who would normally be in their starting team. Uh Marco Van Staden. So, like, it's probably the equivalent of the same team that Saracen's sent to Sharks, I'll probably say. That would be my probably my closest comparison. Like uh and their their fly half Volhutter uh is loaned over from Lions, his first game for Bulls, and I would say is not sufficient quality for that level of rugby because he did not have a good game in any way, shape, or form. I think he missed a touch on about four penalties, just gave us the ball back several times, and his kicking was not good, so that didn't help them. Uh there was like a 10 no five-minute window where they got a little bit of go forward, mainly through Elry Glow, who did look good, but other than that, it was all Saints.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:32

Um, yeah, it was. And you know, I I think nice I think nice to see Ollie Slightholm and George Hendy on the wings. Um the Titan Flash getting a hat trick, which is always good to see. Yeah. Slight home, obviously at fault for the one balls try, but other than that, uh you know, a good performance, got got a couple of tries. George Furbank uh in his uh Swan song now for Northampton for the rest of the season.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

Unconfirmed at this point at point of recording. Unconfirmed.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Um, but I'll tell you what I did think was uh possibly Henry Pollock's best performance of since his return.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:06

Well it's like every time we say something about a player not necessarily being at their best, they just oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

On that note, we need to go back and criticise some Gloucester players again because uh I need I need to get the same bounce.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:17

Sorry, Rory. Uh can't because most of the players we can criticise this week won't be playing in the Prem because most of them are your teenagers who will be doing their homework. That's such a good point. Uh that's such a good point. What's that? Yeah, but so yeah, Henry Pollock definitely had his best game of the season for me. Uh absolute menacing best. Both sides of the ball in defence, in attack, showed how quick he was. Uh I'm pretty sure he tripped himself over. Speaking of trips, how funny was it show when the bulls prop throw his toys at the pram saying that he tripped him over? We're clearly on the replay, he tripped himself over by his big old size fourteen boots clipping the back of his own foot, thinking it was a Yogan, and deciding to kick him to get a yellow card. Head head gone. I thought that was very funny how motive he got when on the replay he clearly tripped himself over.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Yeah, sh uh uh Shekweni. Yeah. Shekweni. Yeah, yeah. Um not uh not his finest moment, I suspect he'll ever have in his career. Was quite funny a bit later on when out when Saints I think went sort of 40 or 50 points up and they cut uh they cut to him on the bench looking cheapish, forlorn.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

A little bit glum. Uh yeah, I it's there's not too much to draw from this game. It was a comfortable victory for Saints. Again, in the first half, I fought similar to the week before, a bit disjointed.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:37

Saints weren't necessarily you seem to be taking a little time to warm up at the moment, but once you get into your strides, pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:45

Yeah, but all I'm thinking about, and it's making me all nice and warm and fuzzy. You throw Tommy Freeman into that back line now. Now we've got a lot of our best players back. They're gonna be fizzing because it's a tasty, it's a tasty prospect. You put Freeman on the end of some of these moves, uh, he you're gonna be scoring some tries, Rory. I'm telling you that. Uh not that I agree. Not that I want to drop slight home or Hendy, but Freeman in that back line. I th I think maybe that might be the missing piece to why some of these things aren't landing, because maybe he's just a yard ahead of everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:17

Kind of no, honestly, I'm I I'm looking at that squad, and I think Freeman and I I know Curtis Langdon's out for no, he's back, he's back training.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

He's back training.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

Oh, he's back training again. Okay, I think you add those two pieces back into that. It's you know, Bellew as well on the bench.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

Yeah. Also, another self-indulgent question for you, Rory, from my from my Saints brain. Where is Alex Coles currently in terms of best locks in the UK right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:48

In the UK? Oh, well, that's that's a tough one to answer because I'm okay. In terms of the type of lock he is, and by that I mean rangy, kind of in the loose, almost sort of hybrid style locks, I think he's probably on a par with Oli Chesham. He's probably those two are probably out on their own for that type of lock. But you've got to then think you know you've got Maratoge, Joe McCarthy, you could probably argue James Ryan. There's always a few questions, marks about his form. Cummings, uh, up in Scotland, who I think is a really underrated but very good player. Um Welsh will argue Daf Jenkins, although I don't think he's as good as Alex Coles, but he's probably in the I certainly top ten.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Certainly top if the Lions tour was being announced tomorrow, would Alex Coles make your Lions squad?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

No, and uh the only reason why is I think there but I think you're forgetting how many good Irish locks there are. I think you're forgetting how good Alex Coles is. Okay, well let me just Joe McCarthy, James Ryan, Type Burnson, you know. I think Alex Coles is comparable with some of those, but I mean he's not certainly not ahead of all of them. You've still got Maratogia, you still got Oli Chesham, you've still got Cummins. I don't think Coles is quite there yet, but that's not to say he's not playing fantastically well at the moment. And in terms of form, he's probably up there with anyone. That's what the question was, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

Um and I notice he is in your fantasy team, so maybe you do rate. Maybe you do rate him in your top two. That's all I'll say. Uh but yeah, Saints won 50, Bulls five. Let's not dwell too much more in that game because it was quite easy. And let's not dwell too much on the next game, because once again, it was another route for a Prem team. Bristol Bears putting Poe to the sword massively, 61-12 Rory. It was again another. I think the only glimmer for the French side was Fabien Robert, another Le Beep beep, maybe. Yeah. He looks handy, but Bears were just rampant.

Sharks Edge Saracens In The Rain

SPEAKER_02 1:23:48

Yeah, this was just not a great watch, was it? I I watched this as I after I'd just got back from the weekend in Ireland. So I thought, oh, it'd be nice just to run off the round off the weekend with uh this was ver this was one of those sort of uh screeners.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

A nice little rugby chaser for your rugby weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

Yeah, exactly. Um yeah, another training run. I mean, nice to see Alice Genj on the rampage scoring quite early on. As soon as you got that, I've read I've got Alice Genj in my fantasy team. I was like, always nice to get a prop up prop on the score sheet, but yeah, just not not much to shout about with this one. Um I think the Grondona brothers are really coming into their own. Yeah, the younger one looked particularly good, I thought. Particularly, yeah. Um nice to see even Ashvilly continue to get some game time. I think he's coming on. The problem is it's just not that entertaining to watch training runs constantly. Um I think my biggest source of entertainment in this one was knowing that you'd picked Lewis Tree Summit, and he dropped out just before the start of the game for Elliz Ald.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

Not just picked him, he was my captain already.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:49

Um yeah, I saw that. So that was the only sort of real enjoyment I got out of this one, other than Alice Genge.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

Put a real dark shadow over it for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:57

Yeah, yeah. Um I don't know. It's just there's some nice moments, right? There's some there's some nice bits of skill, and there's you know, it's nice. Some of the it's nice to watch end-to-end tries at times. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:09

But once you sort of factor in the lack of competition in it, you just go when you remind yourself what competition you're watching, it's like, oh, this this isn't what it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:17

Like it's just not, it's not what you sign up for.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:22

Yeah, yeah. I want to tune into these games and each game be a contest, and that is not what we're getting at the moment at all. And I I do not blame anyone for not purchasing Premier Sports uh at this point in time because the product is not worth the purchase uh at the moment, anyway. Uh, but we're suckers Rory and we get sucked into paying for this stuff because we can't help ourselves. We're addicted to rugby. I know, I wish I could. I wish I I wish I could I wish I could just cut it off, but I can't. It also makes this podcast really boring if I didn't watch any rugby. Yeah, yeah. So we've covered theoretical rugby podcast. Hey, there's something there. Maybe we've got a spin-off. So we haven't covered the cast game, the Bordeaux game, or the Stormers game.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:02

There's a reason for that, David. They have all been other training runs for teams we don't watch on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

So I think um the only two things that I will say about those games in general. One, Fletcher Anderson for the Scarlets, he's a decent player. Yeah, he stood up for Scarlets against Bordeaux, who had a training run. Uh and Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:25

A real deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:26

There's a reason why Rugby Pass have named him their new number one Rugby player in the world this year, surpassing Anton Dupont.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:33

Yeah, Mr. Dupont.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:34

Yeah, uh he's handy. He's he's he's he certainly is. He's good. He is we'll accept it. You've got a real good, real deal there. Uh all right, South Africa. We get it. You've got another great player.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:45

Good one. Question for you though, David. I guess more more um more widely. I say, you know, Lara Shell is the second team over. Garlets are struggling at the moment, we're always gonna struggle against Bordeaux, regardless. Um, and Edinburgh were always gonna struggle to back up the lot last week's performance against Tast. So taking those results as red and looking at the tables. So Glasgow, maximum points off the first two games, uh, with uh I think Harrisons Saracens are second.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:16

Uh so you've got Saracens to play, and they'll have Clermont to play.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:21

Claremont. Saracens and Clemont's play. So Claremont, we would assume are now gonna throw in the tower at this point because they're they've they're zero points in the first two games. Yep. So Glasgow against Saracens, which I think is in Saracens, yeah. Is that's the that's gonna be the big decider for for those two, with obviously the knowledge that Saracens have also got to play Toulouse. Yeah. Saracens need to beat Glasgow to get them to probably to make the top two and probably helps go their way.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:49

If only they'd went and beat the Sharks away from home, eh?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:52

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that pool that pool looks tight because Toulouse having lost, and with Glasgow having to play Saracen still, that one's still very much up in the air. There's three teams that could top that table at this point. Pool two, all teams on one victory and one loss.

unknown 1:28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:10

So uh Edinburgh have got Gloucester at home, so they'll fancy the chance of that one, but I think Gloucester may also fancy the chances.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:16

So they might actually send to their best team.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:18

They won away in Edinburgh last year in the Challenge Cup, so they may well fancy that one, and then they've got Toulon at home. Again, depend probably depending on the Edinburgh result, will depend on what they do in that one. Yeah, I would say of those teams, all of them will fancy their chances of getting through to the next round, depending on probably the next round of games. Yeah, that looks that looks like the most unpredictable.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

That's definitely the most interesting pool to watch, I'd say, in terms of next steps and next stage, because uh there's something in it for each team there at this stage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:51

Pool three looks like Leinster and Stormers are probably gonna pop this one. Tigers may be the most unfortunate to not get a point yet, probably, but at this point, probably going to not be that fuss about the rest of the competition.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

I'd be surprised if they did.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:05

Yeah. Quinn's might fancy the chances. I'm not sure. Are Quinn's away at Stormers or homing at Stormers? Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Um bear with Listener. That could because that could be the deciding fixture at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:21

They are home to Stormers.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:24

Okay, so that that makes that that table interesting because if Quinn's winning it win at home against Stormers, and then presumably they'll be away at Larachelle. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:35

So that could be interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:36

Uh that one becomes very interesting. But then pool four, three teams having won their first two games.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

Yeah, pool four is an interesting one. Uh I also I do feel for the bulls. Like, here's another concept with this format, Rory. The Bulls, in their first two fixtures of the group stage, had to play the champions and the runners up as their first two fixtures in the group stage of this competition.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:59

I will grant you that's not ideal from their perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:01

But like, is there any other competition where that would happen?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:04

No, but you know, as as we've discussed, the format of this competition is so let's let's face it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:09

So Poe are probably gonna throw the towel in, so they're not gonna be part of it. So they've played Northampton and Bristol already. It all hinges on Bristol versus Bulls in terms of the top three, uh, and it all hinges on Saints versus Bordeaux, which is unfortunately in Bordeaux, so tough one for Northampton to win. Like, I am the most optimistic of optimistic Saints fans. I know going to Bordeaux and winning there is by no means an easy thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:36

But we did beat Leinster in Ireland, so I think there's that could be one of the games of the season. Yeah, because you'll have all the narrative is in that game, right? Basically, in this whole pool stage, the only bit of narrative is Northampton away at Bordeaux. Yeah, the replay of the final.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:56

Yeah, which is the only thing that people will be paying for their premier sports subscription to watch. Because I think and I think the way the table lands then also hinges on Bristol versus Bulls. Because I think they've got I think they've got to go to Bulls, so they are Yeah, so they go to Bulls the on the Saturday of that weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:14

So but I don't think Bristol will be able to take a second team though, because they don't have much of a squad to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:19

No, so they'll they'll have to take a strong squad, but bulls at home is a different story to bulls away. We all know that. Um it's just whether bulls are interested in putting out their strongest team or not. Uh so a lot hinges on that. Uh and then yeah, I so we know three of the four teams that are gonna qualify from that group already. Uh just the order, we don't know yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:42

I mean, I'm trying to I'm I I'm trying desperately to think of a way to make this this a more interesting competition, but it's just at the moment it's sorry Rory, but some some things are not possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:52

Um, sorry, listener.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:53

Uh I can't actually wait to make this entertaining for you. We've wasted your evening.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:58

Yeah, sorry guys. Uh it's another Champions Cup megapod where we've just bored you to sleep again. Uh but thank you for sticking for us for this long. Uh at least next week we'll be back to normality. We'll be talking Prem Rugby. So if anyone has tuned in just for Champions Cup rugby, we will be predominantly focused on Prem Rugby next week and things along those lines. So please do still tune in. But uh, if you are expecting us to talk URC or top 14, uh unfortunately that is not our bag when it comes to the run-of-the-mill stuff. We'll be back to the Prem. Uh but for now, Rory, I think I think that is the pod for this week done. Do you have any final words for the listener?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:40

Drink Beamish. It's marginally better than Guinness.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:44

And on that note, listener, we will bring the episode to a close. Hope you've enjoyed listening. Remember to subscribe, like, follow, rate, message us. Just yeah, we're here for it. We'll be back next week with some more Armob fun. Ta ra. Ta-da.