S2 Ep 16 - Rucks, Mauls & Oval Balls 2025 Rugby Wrap Up w/ Mark Williams (MWRUGBYCOACHING)

Joined by Mark Williams from MWRUGBYCOACHING

Two hours of rugby without the fluff: we look back at 2025’s biggest swings and set our stall out for 2026. From the Lions’ series win to Elliot Daly breaking French hearts, from Bath’s irresistible maul to Saints’ statement in Europe, we map the moments that mattered and why they’ll shape the year ahead.

We get into the rise of Steve Borthwick’s England and the culture piece that actually makes teams better, drawing on coach Mark Williams’ work across school, uni, and club rugby. Expect honest chat on Exeter’s resurgence, Saracens’ strange dip in ruthlessness, and a clear-eyed take on Wales and Ireland’s trajectories. Then we tackle the refereeing elephant: too much TMO, too little trust in the on-field ref, and a TV habit of selling controversy over craft.

Predictions? Bath to top the Prem but Saints to be the team that can beat them in a one-off. Europe looks like a Bordeaux vs Toulouse battleground, while the Six Nations order we’re calling is England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Wales. The new Nations Championship feels built for South Africa, with England next-best if their curve holds. Players to watch include Lucas Friday, Oscar Usher, Daf Jenkins, Noah Calorey, Jack Bracken, and Calvin Gorgues. For awards, we’re split between the sheer completeness of Sasha Feinberg-Mngomezulu and a prop-led surge led by Thomas du Toit.

We close with what rugby needs operationally: clarity on Premiership franchising and a proper U23 league that replaces the Prem Cup, staged at community grounds to feed pathways and grow gates. It’s practical, it’s doable, and it would make the sport healthier from top to bottom.

If you rate thoughtful rugby chat with skin in the game, tap follow, share with a mate, and drop us your risers, fallers, and title picks. Your takes make the show better.

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Transcript

Opening Banter And Setup

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to Rux Malls and Oval Balls. That's right. It is the fans' favourite rugby podcast brought to you by the fans' favourite rugby podcast hosts, plus a guest this week. That's right. It is me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. And for this week, coming back to the podcast, it's Mark Williams. Hello, Mark. Hello, hello, Rory. Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hello. Alright, lads, how are we? Oh, very well.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

So, quick disclaimer to the listener here. This podcast is being brought to you as a kind of end of year 2025 roundup because uh in the week between Christmas and New Year, myself and Rory are unable to record. So you might be expecting us to analyse round eight of the Prem. Instead, you're getting some excellent, excellent 2025 roundup content for your listening pleasure. So just in case you are expecting Prem Rugby Round Eight, that might come in the new year. But for now, we're doing a 2025 roundup. Uh so yeah, I'm doing well. How are you both?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yeah, I'm uh I'm pretty good actually. It feels like a lifetime ago that was uh last on the podcast. It was the the week after the Lions Argentina game, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:12

So that was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. A lot of water passed under the bridge, yeah. Yeah, a lot of water has gone under the bridge. Uh yeah, what's happened to me then? We've we've taken a break, started a new season. We've missed a couple of weeks because of my uh my logistics. So you've missed the shaky periods, and then you're back. Now we're getting back into the swing of things. We didn't want to tar you with our unprofessional brush. That's what it was, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

We're not our no, don't worry, I think I tarred you with mine. The best thing I did after I came off the podcast was buy a decent mic and headphones that just disclaimer I can't sort the volume on it. That's why I've got one ear out.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

It's all good. We're very used to technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

Yeah, I think it is a weekly occurrence. We hit into some sort of snag, so you're you're very much part of the part of the family in that sense. Uh now, as always, we start off our podcast with our obligatory banter. Uh, we make sure that we diarise that as part of our order of chat. I I know Mark, you pointed that out when I shared shared that with you. You had a nice little laugh that we had to remind ourselves to have a little bit of banter. Normally, it's about how uh rugby's gone over the last weekend and uh any activities that have taken place. Rory, did you play any rugby this weekend with Westcliff?

Why A 2025 Roundup, Not Round Eight

SPEAKER_03 2:29

So natural, this such a natural section. Uh no, no game, no game for the twos this week. I actually was in uh in Twickenham at uh at HQ, Alliance is for the um for official sponsorship reasons. Um watching the Harlequin's women and the Harlequin's men team, who both had very differing uh uh results. Um but uh no uh we had uh had a day out at at HQ, which was very, very much uh over enjoyed, maybe. Uh foggy, foggy memories. Yeah, the ones did have a game, they were away at Colchester, they were away league leaders, and by all accounts, gave a good performance 33-16 loss, which given that the South End who were I think third in the table, they put 90 points on them at Colchester when they visited. I'm gonna take as effectively a win.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

That's a moral victory, I'd say.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Huge moral victory.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

How about yourself? Yeah, we are a moral.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, I was not quite Harlequin's Bristol, I was at New Brighton v Wigan, which frankly the defensive efforts were similar. So as the often are of the club that I'm coaching now, I've sort of uh feel like I turned into a bit of a super rugby side. So I think we're something like seventh in the league, and we've got maybe the top try bonuses. Um I haven't checked the defence stats too closely, but we were at that. It was a pretty um end-to-end affair, one of those we score, they score, we score, they score. But we scored in the end. Wigan came on a bus and then went to Chester afterwards, which is is proper level seven stuff that like bringing the coach going to Chester, get the game out of the way. But yeah, um, I only caught glimpses of the premiership just wrapping a couple of presents before. Funnily enough, that the Quinn's Bristol game was on. And I put my head up and was like, Is that Ellis Genge that ran from the halfway through everyone?

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Honestly, I mean a bit of a jump forward, but it was a big contender for my standout moment for 2025. I thought I can't just do the last thing I saw, but to be there to see Ellis Genge run in from 45 metres was a huge moment for me. And you know, do we bring back the DPR FR?

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Well, so so this is this is a real uh Roxmall's and Ovalballs timeline quandary are in right now because we're recording this one the day before we're recording our analysis of that round of rugby, but this is going to be released in eight days' time.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

So as you're listening to this, you'll have already heard me gush about this particular track engine. Because it was I was going mad in the stands for that one.

Club Rugby Weekends And Genge’s Screamer

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Yeah, well, I think that it's justifiable. And I did wonder whether this was a particular weekend to talk about the DPR of R. Maybe we'll talk about that last week. I don't know. I don't know, yeah. A real messy timeline, but we'll we'll ignore that. Uh so yeah, as I said at the start, this podcast is gonna be about 2025, looking ahead to 2026, a couple of our own personal highlights, a few other little fun things to do, and it felt like a really good one to bring Mark back on board for to bring a bit of expertise, that bit of knowledge, and another voice to really, really it breaks up the monotony of me and Rory. I think the listener will be really thankful for that. Uh, but I wanted to start off simply with just let's talk about our personal standout moments of rugby um of 2025, just from a personal point of view, can be anything. Uh let's start with you, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Well, I a bit of a soppy one for me, I suppose. Uh this season I got made uh as we've discussed in the world, captain of the of the second team, and I've had the great pleasure of uh captaining my uh my younger brother, who's 10 years my junior. Um so we've been playing playing alongside each other um for the last few months. So for me, sort of I'd say coming into kind of the the the twilight years of my uh rugby playing career, if I'm if we're being generous, being able to get out on the paddock with uh with my younger brother's been been very special. Um but what I've particularly enjoyed is in the last three months, never once even remotely considering putting him forward for man of the match.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

That is very I think that's I think that's the right way to be handling that, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

But that that is nice.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

That's a that's a good one. I know you say it's soppy, but I think that's a that's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, it's a nice it's a nice moment to have before you sort of start thinking that the boots might need to start gathering dust at some point.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I'm sure I'm sure that moment's years away, Rory. I'm sure your your your retirement isn't anywhere looming in the near future.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well, we'll say we'll see some of some of the reviews are suggesting it should be sooner than later.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Oh, okay. We'll move we'll move on then. Mark, how about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Um, yeah, a a couple actually. So I mean you'll be aware, and I suppose people that have followed me on TikTok will know that I coach about a hundred different teams. But the the standout for me, I've I sort of picked one from the start of the year and one from from the end. So the first one is the third place finish in national two at Lim, breaking most club records. Um it was honestly it was a season like no other, especially for a team completely unpaid, going and beating at some point in the season every single team in that league, including Sykes who've gone up and probably do a decent job in national one. I know they're down the bottom now, but turn Rotherham over on Saturday who are talking. Um, so that that is the the standout one for me from personal experience. And the second one, a bit of a a bit of a mad one. It's hard to convey this, but our school programme. So I coach, I'm a full-time rugby coach at an independent school on the Wirral who which has got like 40 lads in a year, and we've we found ourselves number 23 in the country at the moment on performance. I know that sort of win ratio is is a tough way of um it's a tough way of measuring school rugby because it's not ultimately that much about winning, but one thing winning does show generally is that you're doing things right, and given sort of the amount of players that we have and the the sort of program we run, because we don't scholar, we don't um pay players to come in and try to knock money off fees for rugby players like some outfits do, and I'm not criticising schools that do that because they do an excellent job. And I know a lot of heads of rugby are real top rugby schools, but um just being able to sit around in a room with all the players just before we broke up from Christmas and have a look at what we've done and sort of sit around like are we decent? And do you know what I mean? And just having a it has, yeah, and the the way that sort of I measure it personally is if you've got players wanting to come down Tuesday after school, Wednesday for an hour and a half games, Thursday after school, that they're on time of a Saturday wherever we are home or away, wanting to go and not really caring whether we're playing a team with a similar amount of boys or 200 plus in a year and just getting after it and performing and enjoying it. That to me speaks of a good programme for the kids. So, you know, I don't want it to sound a bit like too self-aggrandising because I'm one of many coaches, and the coaches and teaching staff, frankly, that we have in the school that put their hand into coach are exceptional and doing a really good job, and the players are, I think, really reaping the rewards of that. And it it's as with any performance, it's on them, not really us. So I wanted to mention them as a bit of a personal standout.

Personal Rugby Highlights Of 2025

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Yeah, I th I think those are those are two good ones. I I think like when I look back on when I played, you always remember the years where it's just it's felt really good, felt like there's there's like a real like positive feeling around a team. It sounds like that's the sort of thing you're creating at that school team, and perhaps that's something is that something that coaches aim to try and create in terms to try and make it so players feel like they're in that moment, or is it something that comes naturally and is all out of a coach's control?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

A bit of both, which is a bit of a cop out of an answer. But the number the number one thing you've got to do, I think, when you're the coach of a team is sort of the culture of it out. And I've been I've coached in team support where I've gone in and the culture's been really sour and I've had to change it. But I've I've gone into some places where the culture's fine and they just need a little bit more technical detail, um, which is probably the latter for school. Um but yeah, I if you if you haven't got the culture where players want to turn up and want to get better and want to put time in and enjoy their rugby and not necessarily, especially for school boy or university or north England level, where not necessarily they they want to go on and be professional, they just want to enjoy their rugby. But that's the number one thing. If you've got lads who want to learn and enjoy, then that is that is the first building block. Because if you haven't got that, then I'd almost argue what you're doing it for.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. I also wonder, because you do seem to coach about 20 different teams, uh how do you make sure you're keeping track of what you've coached with each team through a year, or do you just coach the same thing with each? Or if it always intrigues me how a coach who does many teams, how they make sure that they're kind of providing bespoke uh help, or is it just one one brush fits all?

SPEAKER_00 11:00

No, so I I tend to plan through WhatsApp. I did something on TikTok about this about how how to plan sessions. I tend to do it through WhatsApp in groups. Now there's some sessions I lead and there's some that I don't. So uh there are, for example, at school, there are some age groups where I lead the coach and I lead the first team and the under 16s, but then there's other coaches where the lead isn't me and I'm planned for, so I'm delivering stuff that other coaches are planning. I'm not the head coach in every scenario. I am at uni, I'm not at North England. We sort of we bounce it around a little bit at club, but what I will do, and I won't do a one-size-fits-all approach, but what I will do is if I do something that works really well at club, for example, I'll go and try it at school and I'll go and try it at uni and see if they buy into it as well. And I I find myself sometimes in a week doing the same thing two or three times because I found it works in one environment and because I know the players in the other environment, I think I'll go and give it a go there and see see how they react to it. So um there is it there is a case of me planning, but it's not it's not always the same. It's it's a lot of the time not usually similar. I take the forwards and and do mauling sometimes. I take the backs to do kicking and backs attack and all sorts um in different scenarios, but there is a mixture of me planning and other coaches planning, so not necessarily, but I will try stuff that works in one environment and another quite often, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

That makes sense. It does make sense, and I guess that buys into kind of helping create that environment because you're picking up the things that work and you're picking up the things that people buy into. Uh, I I can see why I can see why it works. I should I should probably add my own standout. Yes, David, what's your well the the the obvious answer I was gonna say was the Man V fat rugby journey I went on, but I've I'm taking a bit of a hiatus from that, so I probably won't sing and shout about that. What I will do in a little bit of uh it'll probably seem a little bit self-indulgent, but I'll say it's this podcast, Rory, because we've been doing it for nearly a year now. We started it in January this year, and the fact that we're still doing it, haven't given up on it, still plugging away. But I think it's the fact that it's those moments where if I go to a game and someone comes up to me and says, Are you the guys off TikTok? Are you the guys off Instagram? And they say, Really like your podcast, or really like your like I know it sounds quite self-indulgent, but that does make you feel good when you do get recognised for something you enjoy doing. Uh, so it's not necessarily rugby related, but because I'm not playing rugby, that's as close as I can get to for stand up. But hopefully, hopefully that's something that continues. Uh but it's just yeah, too. I think we can allow that that slight um slight deviation.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Self-indulgent, yeah, to move on swiftly.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

Move on swiftly to uh standout professional rugby, so not our personal standout moments, but moments that stand out for us through the last year in the world of rugby. Uh, we'll keep the same running order. Rory, for you, what uh is your standout rugby moment of 2025?

SPEAKER_03 13:49

I mean, I was sorely tempted by the Ellis Gennes tribe, and then I just found myself sort of going down a rabbit hole of moments I picked out of the DPRFR in the first half of the year. Yeah, what was my favourite moment?

SPEAKER_05 13:59

One from last week, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, but I thought what was what was the moment I actually that actually got me up out of my seat? And I think it was probably Ellis Daly, Elliot Daly's uh winner against France in uh in the Six Nations to uh turn turn it around in the last minute for England and probab well arguably could have kept Borthwick in his in his job at that point because things were looking pretty bleak after the Ireland game. Set England off on this kind of fun that they've been on, really, where they they now look like they're gonna start challenging for the top, you know, sort of getting towards challenging towards South Africa. I thought if I look back on the whole year, what moment really got me out of out of my seat? And I think Elliot Daly scoring that try, and then everything that's kind of followed on from that from an England rugby perspective. I think that's the the moment I enjoyed the most.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, I remember I do remember feeling that that was that was impactful because that was France was definitely a game we were going into, not expecting a lot out of it, kind of expecting a whooping.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Yeah, it just it felt it it felt properly significant when it happened. I mean, the whole game was as I remember it, you know, it was a very two-and-fro game, and it could it really could have gone either way, and probably should have gone to France, if we're if we're all being completely honest, like thinking back on that game, they spilled a lot of ball, and obviously we'd beaten Scotland the week before in a bit of a squeaker, but it didn't feel like a sort of seat change moment. But backing backing it up against France felt significant, and particularly with that the France side at that moment in time felt fairly unstoppable.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Yeah, I think start of 2025, they were definitely a dominant force, weren't they? I think I think that's a good one. That's a good one. Mark, how about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I've um I've gone for quite an obvious one here to be fair, but it's hard, it's hard in a Lions year to look past the Lions series win, isn't it? Um it should really have been a 3-0. But I suppose given the context of losing that first game against Argentina, and again it wasn't the full noise lions, but going on from that Argentina game to I think beat everyone until the last game. I don't know if I misremembered that, but to win so convincingly, and again with the caveat that a lot of the teams that they played weren't particularly weren't particularly good. Um frankly, I thought quite unusually sometimes there was performances, certainly from players in the invitational games that were better than the actual super rugby sides. Um but I think the Lions the Lions win is the obvious one. If you're asking the uh the real honest side of me, then the standout Winton professional rugby is any mall that Bath had within 10 metres of anyone's triline.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Oh, it's it's a piece of art, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I've spent more time with my phone filming bath malls for uh for TikTok than anything else. Like that is, I just can't support I can't support as a Gloucester fan.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

I can't support having someone on the podcast pulling the bath moment for it.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I said it and I meant it.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

Yeah, yeah. I I could see I could see the bath mall is certainly it's an entity to itself and it's to to be feared. So I can see why that would be a standout moment for you. Uh for me, again, this is gonna seem really self-indulgent.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

But which Harry Politrizer is it?

SPEAKER_04 17:07

No, it's it's the Northampton Saints victory against Leinster in the Champions Cup semi-final.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Oh no, yeah, that's not a not a good shout.

SPEAKER_04 17:15

But a big part of it for me was I was getting pelters the whole week prior to that because I predicted Northampton to win. And I was getting called delusional, left, right, and centre, being told I had no idea what I was talking about. Had fans from all parts of the country and other nations telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. For them to go pull that off in the way that they did, in a convincing manner, I felt so vindicated and um what's the right word? Arrogant about the fact that I'm right to be saying some of the stuff I'm saying about Northampton. But like that moment, like as you said, Roy, like genuine get out of your seat moments, that was one of them. I remember I was round a friend's house and I was like running round a garden just celebrating with a load of other Saints fans. It was just fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Was was there a particular moment in the game that that really stands out to you? Was it the Pollock Tribe? Because that that the that line and then round in was it Prendergasty rounds in the backfield?

SPEAKER_04 18:12

Yeah, yeah, yes, and then that was a real checking the poles thing that came from that.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Well, because obviously we'd been talking he he'd been getting a lot of the chat, of course, by that point, but that felt like a real announce yourself on the biggest stage kind of moment.

Standout Pro Moments: Lions, Daly, Saints Leinster

SPEAKER_00 18:25

I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, uh do you think that was the game that got him on the lions tour? Because I wasn't I wasn't sure he was going until I saw him in that, and then uh like I knew he was good, but when I saw him in that, I was like, he's he's legit, to be fair.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Yeah, I think I think that rubber stabbed it.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

By the end of that game, I was like, he's going, he's going.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

I don't think uh Andy Farrell had a choice after that game, but I also think part of the fact that because of the hype around him, just generally, it just having him on the tour was as good for the touring party, I think. So I think it just cemented it in most fans' heads as well. Like it's no surprise that when they're announcing the squad, he got the biggest cheer. But I don't want to spoiler alert, his name might get mentioned a couple more times, so we probably shouldn't dwell too much on Henry Pollock.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Um we've been accused of being Pollock Pod in the past. There's a reason. I'm not saying cynically we might have done that in the past, but it's possible.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

Was our very first ever guest one of Henry Pollock's coaches? Sure. But hey, we haven't got the man himself on yet. But maybe. Maybe something for the future. Who knows? But yeah, moving on. Let's talk a bit more generally about risers and fallers in 2025. So players, clubs, things in 2025 where they've either had a rise or a dramatic fall. We'll do one riser and one faller each. Talk about maybe some others in contention. Uh let's start with your risers and fallers, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah, Rise risers was was quite quite hard to come up with. I mean, uh Red Bull was a consideration, just Just the its rise in terms of its significance in the whole landscape was was massive. Uh Johan Van Groen, as a as in from a coaching perspective, what you do with that bath team. I know that they've got the most insane squad in the league, but and the most entertaining mall. And the most entertaining mall, as we've uh yeah, as we've established. But absolutely. George Ford, just because I love him, and he's just been so good all year. My my my continuous loving with George Ford is is still going. Um but I settled on I settled on Borthwick. Um because again, because you know, it's sort of easy to you know, sports fans have always got short memories. Um, and it'd be easy to forget sort of how low his stock was at the end of 2024, you know, after uh he got to the semi-final in the World Cup, but in fairly bleak playing style, and then 2024 successive defeats, three defeats against New Zealand, uh defeat against Australia, fairly disappointing six nations. You know, at the end of last year, the talk the chat was really is Borthwick gonna make the next World Cup? Um it's not the chat anymore. After was it 11 wins on the on the bounce this year after the island defeat? Yeah you know, his his stock, I think, and I think you've got to give credit where it's due. Um, you know, he's he's someone who's always been accused of being emotionally unintelligent, which I think based on all the conversations I've heard around it, is probably correct. But he's also been talked about as being someone who's quite rigid in his view of how the game should be played. And actually, I think he's he's proved himself to be a lot more adaptable this year than people thought. Maybe not in terms of how he personally views the game, but the changes he's made from election, particularly his coaching team, you know, bringing in Lee Blackett, moving, you know, questions around how many coaching changes there was and whether it was the right thing to do. Well, you know, there's rumours that El Abd is on his way out because he, although he's Borthwick's mate, he's kind of been shifted to the sideline as they put Wigglesworth over to the defence, bringing in McGwigan. You know, I think if in fairness to him, he's he's proven himself way more flexible than people um gave him credit for before. And and England are the ones reaping the rewards of that. So for me, he's he's my my riser of the year. Um faller. We we try not to be a negative pod. Um Wales would have been the obvious one, but to be honest, they've been falling for so long, it just feels at this point, it's just you're sort of kicking them on the way down. Um I thought about the France team, but then remember they actually did win the Six Nations. It kind of feels quite a long time ago now. They've been kind of falling since then. Um, but I've actually settled on the Irish national team, whose stock, I think, as the year's gone on, has just kept dropping. Um particular you know, culminating really in the trouncing against South Africa. Um, you know, really disappointed against New Zealand in in the US, and then getting absolutely battered by South Africa and not just not just beaten, you know, really quite sort of humiliated in on home turf. And real questions now about whether that team has got what got it in it to get to a World Cup and have any kind of impact. You know, will will Ireland go past the quarterfinal again at the moment? I'm I'm saying don't think so. So for me, the the I Irish national team is the one that's fallen the fallen the furthest. Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

I I'll be very intrigued if I was to clip that up and get some Irish fans' perspectives that you think they've fallen further than Wales.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

I just I just think that's the Wales Wales we know that Wales are fallen, right? Wales have fallen well away. But from from the heights that Ireland were at, you know, really in the last year to now, I think that feels like the most significant drop-off in terms of levels.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

I think I think that's I think that's fair. How about you, Mark?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I've um I mean Rise is the bad bloke in me, wants to say dragons because they've won the last two games. Wow. Um I mean that is a big dramatic rise. I mean, on that on that one though, to be fair to them, they haven't won for 15 months. It's one of those like it looks like a foregone conclusion every week. Um and I'm I I don't live anywhere near Newport, I'm not a Dragons fan. It's genuinely nice to see them actually win twice on the bounce. I know it's a real far. Um it's really putting it out there to have them as the risers, but it's just sort of like reminds me of you know when Fiori looked like he was out on the mat and then sort of sat like starting to sit up. Sonny remembered the risers for me, and this is a team that have gone from the probably one of the best in Europe ten years ago to towards the bottom end of the Prem and then right back up there. I've I've gone Exeter Chiefs as risers because and I thought about them getting it done at getting it done at the Stone X again on Saturday. And I mean it astounded me at the time. I remember back in was it April or May where um Tony Rowe was in the dressing room giving the rise act to the players and Ali He forgot sacked, did he? And uh I knew there was a load of drama. I remember doing something about it, but I remember literally about seven months ago X to being in a bit of a hole and out of nowhere I'm gonna say because I I didn't even I didn't think they were gonna be even top half this year, but they are they are risers, aren't they? I haven't checked the table since yesterday. But they must if they're not top, they must be somewhere near top.

SPEAKER_04 25:28

They're second, they're second, second at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

I don't think they're gonna win the Prem because Bath are in the Prem. But for me, I've gone Exeter Chiefs as risers, and I didn't write it at the time, but you said it before George Ford. And the fact I mean he didn't go on the Lions tour, which surprised me a bit, but the way he played for England in the summer and has played since, and he is really he is the linchpin at sale, isn't he? To be fair, um George Ford, definitely worth a mention. And and Fallers, I'd say you stole my thunder there, Rory. But um Wales, I find it quite sad to be honest, because I do I do I've been the Millennium Stadium a couple of times to to watch them, and I've got a bit of a soft spot for Wales. Um but watched them against South Africa and South Africa can get out of second gear. I mean they did alright against the they did alright against New Zealand for the first half, but I just I I I'm looking at if nothing changes by the World Cup, I'm not entirely convinced they're gonna turn Tonga over, which it sounds mad to say, and they and that might sort of bite me back in the future. I I hope they get out of the groups, but I'm looking at them at the moment, so I'm really just not that convinced, sadly. Um so they're the the fallers, but I'm hoping this time next year I can say they're the risers because I I do not like Wales or anyone in Welsh rugby not doing well, frankly, because it is the linchpin sport, and I get nothing out of watching a boar Wales side or a poor Welsh region.

Risers And Fallers: Borthwick, Exeter, Wales, Refs

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Wow, it's such an interesting one. Do you know what? If if they hadn't had that South Africa test and had left it at the New Zealand game, I think the conversation about Welsh rugby is very different right now because Cardiff are going very well in the URC. Yeah, yeah. Let's say the Dragons have won a couple of games on the bounce, you know, it's it's potentially a different conversation, but that South Africa test plus just this ongoing just shit show that is the WR is just it's just killing the life in that in that game there. Um, yeah. I mean, you are right, they are the fallers. The reason I didn't want to pick them is just like same as you. I actually don't enjoy the kind of capitulation of of the sport in Wales because as much as they're like our biggest rivals, the game in the UK is so much better for having a competitive Welsh team. It's just sad, yeah. At the moment, it's just it is just sad to watch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

Well, I I really, really hope that when we're having this conversation next year, that they can't fall any further. So hopefully they won't be in contention in 2026 fallers.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

I think my my my most optimistic thought for next year is that I don't I don't believe that WRU are suddenly going to become brilliant because I think all rugby unions to a certain level are terrible and they're they're possibly the worst. But I do think the talent is still in the game there. I I think I've seen enough talent in and uh dotted around coming through the youth ranks. There's there is some hope in amongst the people in Wales. The organisation is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

Well, that's very optimistic of you, Aurie. You've really changed your tune in recent months around the Welsh rugby movement. I wonder why that is. Uh well for me, so my risers. Uh I thought about uh South Africa's under-20 program because for four or five years their under-20 team hadn't really achieved much, and then we all saw what they've done in this year's under-20 World Cup where they absolutely steamrolled everyone, and they've got four or five just absolute genuine worlds world-class players, I think, on their hands coming through. So that's ominous for the rest of the world. I also thought about adding in just Prem rugby in general, because I feel like the competition is on the up, considering the mood music that probably when we were having these discussions last year about how was the Prem gonna survive. I feel like it's definitely been an upward turn. But the riser I've gone for is a single player, a player who at the start of the year was just a mere under 20 England rugby player.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Just before we get before we do that, listeners at home, listeners at home, just uh write right on a postcard of which player David's about to pick for his uh riser of the year. David, reveal your answer now.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

It's uh it's Henry Pollock. Uh but I think I think it's justified. Has there ever been a player go from genuine genuinely near obscurity at the start of 2025? Let's face it, he was being called up for England under 20s and he'd had about a hundred minutes of Prem rugby under his belt. At the end of the year, he is the or one of the most talked-about rugby players on the planet in the space of a year. If that isn't the biggest riser, I don't know what is personally. Um so I stand by my very clearly obvious answer.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I didn't even bother putting him on my potentials list because I just knew who was gonna pick Pollock. I knew that I knew that he was getting picked by you, so I just thought I'll just leave it to you to have the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah, it doesn't help that I've got a signed Pollock shirt behind me. Um but uh fallers, I went well shruggedby as well. Um but one of the what so one of the contenders I've talked that's probably worth talking about, I thought refereeing. I think the standard of refereeing over the last year has been probably not positive, and um it's maybe not about specific referees, but maybe it's about how uh TMO interventions seem to be much more in play. There's a there's been I think there's been more frustrations than applause towards referees. I think there's been a number of great referee performances before I s before anyone digs out at me, and I think the emergence of Holly Davidson as a world-class ref is a real positive for this year. And I'm very glad she's getting I'm really glad she's getting six nations games next year. I think that's a huge positive. But I think that just I I nearly put just English referees because I feel like the standard of the referees in the Prem and kind of some of the referees in our game just don't seem to be at the level they were two, three years ago. I think we had the best referees, I'm not sure we do anymore. So I so that I'll go with that to save us kicking Welsh rugby any further. Uh, but that is where I was going to go.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

I think it isn't yeah, okay. Fair enough. I think it's I think that is a really interesting point, though, that I there's definitely something really very true about that. That it feels like refereeing it is being talked about more now than it even was two, three years ago plus. It's and it it seems to be something with the framework. Whoever whoever is just making the decisions about what TMOs can interject with through the game has got it wrong. They've that that has got to be the the changes that we go back to the referee on the field being the ultimate arbiter of of the sport. At the moment, it just feels like there's so many voices, there's so much stoppage. I mean, the I was as I was at Twickling on Saturday, and the women's game in particular was it was payable. The game lasted like two nearly two hours because of the amount of stoppages that were in the in it, and you know, it a lot of it was just refereeing, it's just so it's just just hard work. But people just lose interest.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yeah, I think that's what it's doing.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

I I think it's a bit of a double edge one. I I get that. I I think from a referee's perspective and from the people that organise the referee decisions. I think the other side of it though is that if it goes back to how it used to be where the ref just gave the decision, the the I I feel like it'd get talked about so much more, missed things. I'm not and I'm not saying this to sort of oppose you. I I agree with what you're saying. And I'm I'm gonna throw a couple of commentary teams under the bus a bit here, because I feel like commentary it's constantly refs miss this, refs miss that, he's off his feet, he's you know, that's a high tackle. This is a high tackle, that's a high tackle. Like very brave beautiful. If we're putting rugby on TV, not even anyone, but if we're putting rugby on TV and we're trying to sell it, I don't personally, and I'm just one guy who watches a lot of rugby, so I I I feel like I can pick out on a t on a TV what isn't there's no penalty. I don't need to know what every commentator thinks about every decision because I don't care. And I if I don't watch rugby, I'm looking at that thinking, well, the commentary is so negative, why would I why would I continue to watch this? It's not even it's not even like that in football, it's certainly not like that in cricket, that maybe too far the other way in cricket, but I find in rugby that the chat about decisions uh with the with the commentary, and it's not all commentators, some are fantastic. I find it honestly insufferable.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

Yeah, you do think that's an interesting point. The way the way that we market the team market the game has got to start extending to the biggest game.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

I think and I think it's a knock-on effect to how it's refereed because referees don't want to get anything wrong, they'd rather stop the game and have a double look because they just don't want to be getting hammered in the meeting on a Monday morning. I'm not speaking I don't I'm not speaking for all referees there, that is just how I interpret it from what I see.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

Yeah, I think that I think that's valid, and I think I I think most games now you watch you have a commentator say the ref's got that wrong, or I don't see why the ref's done that. And that that's if if the commentators are undermining the referee's decision, the fans are going to undermine the referee's decision, and then all of a sudden the referee doesn't feel like they've got a leg to stand on, turn to the TMO, and yeah, double-edged sword. And I've just gone and uh edited to that fire by saying that they're one of the fallers of the year, but I stand by it still.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Um unless coaches would never question it, just uh add to that, we'd never question decisions, which is thank you.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Famously, coaches have coaches have never choose to get involved in that.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Famously level headed. Famously, famously. Well, so yeah, so well, those were our rises and fallers for 2025. Let us know if you think we've missed or included anyone wrongly.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Uh if anyone says we should have all three gone for Welsh rugby.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Or Henry Pollock. But the next thing, looking ahead, so what I've done is I've written down ten players that I think we should be watching in 2026. Let me know if you think I'm wide of the mark or uh I'm spot on. Don't feel pressured at all to completely agree with me. Uh so these are all Prem players, so apologies to any fans who or listeners who aren't that familiar with Prem, but this is Prem focused, basically. But of a little bit of look at international rugby.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

So I've gone Alex Wills. Sorry, but for the benefit of South Africa, that's a very key point, alright. So for all South African fans that we can already hear from, we are aware you've got lots of good players. I've just haven't played.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

I've already given them South Africa under 20 being a riser, alright? That's as that's that's that's as much as you're gonna get. So I've gone Alex Wills, uh the Sales Shark winger. Yeah, I suspect he'll have a big 2026. Billy Seller, with Will Stewart being injured and Thomas DeToy leaving. There's a huge opportunity for him to have a huge 2026. Lucas Friday, I think he could start pushing for the Quinn's nine shirts, given the right run of games. Oscar Usher, the Newcastle Red Bulls lock. I think he could potentially be the first to emerge from the Red Bulls Academy, albeit it would have been Falklands Academy when he came through, to potentially get into the national call-up conversation. Maybe not next year, but he's going to play himself into that conversation, I think. I've gone Daft Jenkins at Exeter and hoping he's going to be part of this Exeter and Wales resurgence in 2026. Joe Marchant, can he get back into the national team when he joins Sale in the summer of 2026? Nathan Michelow to replace Tom Willis when he leaves Saracens. Jack Bracken, because I'm intrigued to how the battle with Noah Calori goes for that Saracens 14 shirt on the wing. James Linniger, the Bath fly half, who I'm just waiting for him to get his moment and whether he can grasp it. Unfortunately, he is behind Finn Russell, but I wonder if 2026 is when he becomes Bath's number two. Uh and number 10 on my list, I've gone Henry Pollock. Jesus Christ. Uh I have my reasons because I think 2025.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

We're already paying attention, listeners.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

I I think 2026 is the year he gets his first trophy.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Okay, alright. Uh interest. Um I mean the Pollock one is is very uh classic you, David. And I think for anyone uh who isn't watching Pollock already, as that will come as a surprise. Um I liked a lot of those. I mean, I think the ones I would no, I think I think I would agree with all of those being worth watching for next year. My tip for next year, I think I think the return of the big tough lads is coming in. Okay. I think I think big hard forwards um are going back in when you look at the strength of Bath in particular and what they're doing up front. Um, where sale have had a lot of success, you know, Saracens obviously trying to recreate kind of their golden years. I think people have gone back, I think the the pack is back in fashion. So I'm I'm tipping the likes of uh Burrow at Sale.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah, oh yeah, I forgot him.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Yeah. Um I think Richards and Green at Bath are gonna they're gonna be breaking new ground for them. I think they're they're close to getting into the into the first 15, depending on what the turnover is next year. But those two are definitely ones to watch. Um outside of the Prem Freddie Douglas up at Edinburgh is what I'm really looking forward to. I think he's he's close to a breakthrough for Edinburgh and Scotland. Um I had Lucas Friday. I do think I think he's he's definitely definitely gonna break through next year. But I'm very for dominant. Zach Carr at Quinn's, I'm looking forward to seeing how he goes. Ilioney at Tigers, I think he's gonna keep rising and rising. Um I think Fizzelau, my chiefs, my chiefs breakthrough. I don't think it's Daf Jenkins, I think it's Fizzelau. I think he's the one who's gonna lead that resurgence.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

Rory, I just need to you haven't mentioned a prop yet, and I feel like you should mention a prop of some sort at least.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

I've got you covered if you don't, don't worry. Yeah, well, I I I think with with Will Stewart's injury, I think it's it's in really interesting to see who and Ashropoka for journey looking like he might be touch and go to reach the Six Nations as well. It's I think it's gonna be interesting to see who takes that tighter spot. I think Billy Seller's in prime position. I do think for Sogbuns uh pretty lined up for that as well, if they don't go safe with someone like Ever Davison. So if they back you, Seller off for Sogbun is gonna be taking that gonna be taking that spot. Um I'm hoping Manny Ogan's gonna have his breakthrough, full full breakthrough this year. I think he's he could go from being a a good Prem level player to something a bit special. He's got he's the right dap for it, and his scrummages come on leaps and bounds as well.

SPEAKER_04 39:28

Well, I'm not gonna stop you from saying a Saints player in that section. Mark, how about yourself?

Players To Watch In 2026

SPEAKER_00 39:33

So yeah, so Billy Seller was was ticked off, and I did I didn't think you were gonna mention uh Seller to be fair, especially with the toy going. Um other ones uh I and you alluded to him a little bit there, Noah Calore. I know say he's a player to watch, he's maybe one that's being watched now, but he he is a pretty raw finisher. Obviously, Noah Calorey and being good in the air is is said in the same sentence constantly. But frankly it's because he is very good in the air, so yeah he's uh He's one to watch. There's Oscar Usher is an interesting one and it's probably a good chance to say Fal Falcons Academy. And I I don't we don't really deal with them at North England apart from when we've got players that may or may not be getting sort of released out to county and stuff. Falcons Academy consistently do a pretty good job at putting players through and they're they're pretty strong. Um that's on in the under eighteens league. We've had a couple of players come out to North England at under-17s, who've gone back into the academy at number eighteens and are really pushing on. So they for a while have done a pretty good job at of covering their region and across Cumbria as well. So the fact that Oscar Usher is coming through playing regularly and potentially could be pushing on towards international stuff in the future really doesn't surprise me at all because I think a lot of people, if if you don't know anything about the Academy game, you look at their bulls now and think, oh, well, their academy is going to be similar. It's really not that they're actually pretty decent. Um and the last one, it's a bit of a niche one. You mentioned about Tom Burrow before. Um Tristan Woodman's come through at seven, who he was um he's a little bit before me on the school game, but was a real standout player at school, obviously, has gone through. Salem is getting a shot, but a player that's come through in the Prem Cup, and I'm a little biased because that I coached him um at Lim a couple of years ago. There's a lad called Seb Kelly, who his brother is Dan Kelly, the 12th or Munster. He's getting some Prem Cup time now. I'm telling you, when he gets in the first team, he is he is gonna have some career because and he's not the biggest lad either, but he hits way above his weight. And I have genuinely, when he was 18, I have never seen an 18-year-old talking a huddle the way that he talks, and every single person is listening. Like 300 cap players have stood listening to every word he says. That's what I do. Bit random, bit random because he's just come into the prep Prem squad now. But Seb Kelly in the next couple of years, I'm telling you, was coming through.

SPEAKER_04 41:55

I th I think players like that who have got that intangible like leadership, they're they're often the ones that make the step more naturally than others. So I wonder whether that yeah, 2026 Seb Kelly could be a great shout. Uh I definitely I definitely picked up on that because he definitely got game time in the Prem Rugby Cup and looked had some good stats, which obviously is my bread and butter. Yeah, so definitely one to watch. And yeah, I didn't want to draw too much attention to Calorey because basically the last four weeks of this podcast has been gushing over him. Uh yeah, it's Pollock's turn. Yeah, Pollock gets in the list though, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Yeah, well, it's been gushing enough. Hey, who's this Pollock guy?

SPEAKER_04 42:33

We were critical, we were critical of Pollock a couple of weeks ago, so had to give him something. But yeah, Calorey is a freak of nature and um probably probably should have been on my list for sure. But I I think that the battle of Jack Bracken, who I think is equally as exciting, is just I think that's why I just went Jack Bracken, because I think interesting to see how those two battle it out through 2026.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

Well, I think I th I think it's just what you've also got Angus Hall in the mix of there on that back three as well, who I think is really well thought of, and the lad who plays a bit of 13 and 14, whose name's just escaped me.

SPEAKER_04 43:05

Um Ollie Hartley, or are you thinking of a lad whose name is escaping me as well? Tobias Elliott.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Tobias Elliot's certainly one of the ones to think about. I mean, the the back three talent coming through at Saracen's is outrageous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:18

So yeah, maybe the Saracen's backs are ones to watch. But yeah, again, listener, if there's anyone that we've missed, or if you're really getting bored of me saying Henry Pollock, let us know because I'll I'll still keep saying Henry Pollock. I look forward to talking about how Henry Pollock's one to watch in 2027 this time next year. Uh moving on from players to watch, again, sitting in the 2026 headspace, we're gonna do some predictions. And I think the first prediction I want to do is a bit different. It's not your box down prediction, it's kind of our predictions about what's gonna happen in the sport. Uh, and I'll kick this one off just to give you an idea of kind of where I was thinking with this one. I think 2026 is where we see the confirmation of Prem Rugby being franchised, along with a confirmation of the formation of an under-23 league that works underneath that league, as like an A-league. That's what I think we'll see happen in 2026 in terms of governance-wise. Any predictions from you both?

SPEAKER_03 44:18

Yeah, essentially, I mean I had a similar one. Uh it was it was that the Prem would go franchise, but or would at least try to, but my prediction was that there is going to be a monumental falling out at the RFU and the Prem and everywhere else as they try and push that through. So if you if you enjoy the drama of behind the scenes rugby, watch out for that one because in the next few months the there is going to be an enormous argument. That's my prediction. Interesting. Um, my other prediction, uh, I I mean they've basically announced it. Obviously, London Irish are on their way back next year, but very few details as to where. Uh, and my pessimistic prediction is that they become something like the Irish exiles and just end up in the middle of nowhere in the home counties, and it's a complete disaster. Okay, there'll be the Irish exiles in the middle of Bedfordshire or something, and it's it and it won't be anything like what we were hoping for.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

How very pessimistic of you, Rory.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Yeah, I'm afraid so. I don't unfortunately, I I think with the sad passing of Eddie Jordan, I'm not sure if that's going to have the energy behind it still to come back. I do think wasps should start breaking ground on their stadium in Kent next year. So I think you will start to see where where wasps are landing fairly soon. Interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

And how about you, Mark?

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Um, it's uh I mean I haven't been following too closely the news about that under-23s league, but what I will say is I really hope that gets off the ground because I I remember when you used to have like sale jets and but you know, all the sort of the second teams, and it used to be sort of a mix of lads who were coming back from injury, lads who are in the academy, and then you'd have lads who are quite young playing from teams in your local area. So when I was at Coldy, there was a couple of lads who who went and played for sale jets occasionally, and I think it's a really good way of showcasing younger lads who are playing championship national one, national two, giving them a chance to play in that league and seeing what they've got because there you you but you need me to tell you, but there are players at championship national one, national two who could go through and play in the premiership. There's there's obviously more players who can play premiership standard than there are premiership shirts available, but um under 23s league, I think, would offer more value than the Prem Cup. I thought the Prem Cup when the champ teams are in it were really good, especially for champ team gates. Like you know, you should see what you know Coldy's like when Sale Shark's there or or Newcastle Falcons are there, or you know, even Worcester this year, it's absolutely rammed out. The club's making a fortune, they've got a stand, they've got stores on and everything. It's great to see. Coldie is quite a small club, yeah, um, in terms of its facilities, and it's I think it's our National Trust land and things like that. It's it's a real like national league sort of setup, yeah. But they've gone through to the championship with pretty much the same squad, and a lot of them, you know, you could put them into an under-23s league and and give, I can think of a couple of names off my head of lads that I know who could put a sale jets, for example, shirt on and be absolutely fine. It'd be a real good way of giving them a chance to step up and lads from National League. So I think it would offer as well um something that's a little bit more meaningful because I don't think I'm on my own when I say being candid. I I don't care about the Prem Cup. The only thing about the Prem Cup that I care about is seeing who's decent coming through. Um, and it doesn't matter who wins it, the team that puts most of their first team out wins it. But um I do think and I don't know what the ins and outs of why that stopped previously, but an under-23s league, even if it's at the expense of the Prem Cup, um, would be such a positive, especially for younger players in championship national one, national two, and even potentially below, who who get an opportunity to play even as a one-off.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Yeah, it's it's an interesting one of the under-23s, because I think that they released like something around it, like a really vague intention, kind of middle of last year. And I remember I did a post about it on TikTok, and then I went to the Academy's final day, and then I had some an unnamed source at Prem Premiership Rugby come up to me and said, We were looking at your video about it. We thought that was quite interesting, some of the comments about it. So I think they're genuinely thinking about it and when when to pull the trigger, and I just think next year's the time to it. I agree, I'd get rid of the Prem Rugby Cup and replace it with an under-23s league.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

And how good would you just to pitch it to start trying to build the bring the champ into the fold? Would you say we're not going to call it an under-23s league, we're going to keep it as the champ, but we're going to we're going to reorganise this so champ teams are then linked to prem teams officially and make that kind of an under-23s.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

I think they'd have to, I think they'd have to stagger the fixtures so they don't really clash because what I wouldn't want, and I don't think any teams would want is sides um maybe use like Amtil, for example, here who have quite a lot of I think they have quite a lot of Saracens though, yeah. I might be wrong there, but having them playing twice a week, like for Saracens, 23s, then Amtil and it becomes at the expense of Amtil, do you know what I mean? I think they'd be care have to be quite careful about how they did that. But one thing I think that, and again, I I don't organise these fixtures for good reason, but you could put a let's say sale under 23s, rather than having it at the AJ Bell, have it at Haywood Road, or have it which is where C L FC play, or have it at where Sedge Tigers play, or have it at Coldy, and it would bring a big gate in for clubs locally that are providing these players from age group into the academy all the way up that are within their region. I think that would be a good way of doing it with Saracens players. I don't know what old Albanians is like, but that's do you know what I mean? That sort of setup where they've got maybe a small stand or a bank with seats on, like just helping. I think it would bring a it would bring a gate in, and youngsters would be like, Oh, look, sailor playing, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

Yeah, and it and it will help, especially if you try and do it so that you're spreading around those clubs that do feed players into those systems, so they can help those grassroots clubs that need the money, just giving them like a bump a day a season where they host an under-23 side where you're gonna get more people there than you normally do, where it's just a man and his dog. So I that's what I hope to see. Uh, it may be optimistic, but uh hopefully these are all things we will see happen in 2026. Mark, did we cover your prediction? We got I don't know if we got sidetracked by under 23s.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

I got completely sidetracked by the under 23s. Yeah, I've got I've got predictions for for other stuff. I think we're coming on to that.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

Okay, okay. So we're also going to cover some of the more stereotypical predictions. Uh we'll cover our predictions for the Prem, Champions Cup, Six Nations, the inaugural nations championship, our breakout player of the year, and our player of the year. So starting off with the Prem, we've spoken about it a fair bit. Who are our predictions to win the Prem in 2026?

SPEAKER_03 50:59

I can't bear to predict Bath to win back-to-back Prems. I'm and actually, although they are obviously phenomenal, there's no there's no doubt about that. That that Bath squad and how good it is. I think recent weeks in the Champs Cup have shown that there's a there's an element of fallibility there if you play the right tactic. And the team that I think can beat them in a one-off game, and I think we'll get there, is Saints. So I'm actually, David, for this one, I'm actually gonna predict that Saints pull off an upset and uh and come out on top in the prem this season. I'm so glad you said that.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Because I was about to say the same thing, but I I was expecting eye rolls and uh just being uh completely dismissed. But yeah, I agree. I think Saints injuries to injuries pending, if we get actually our best team out on the pitch, our best 23, I think if you go one to 23 strongest teams against each other, I think Bath maybe edge it on pack terms, but the Saints back line edges the Bath backs, I think. So I think on their day, I think Saints can beat Bath.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

I think I expect Bath to top the table, by the way. I'm just thinking I think Saints will make the final, and in a one-off game, I think they've they could do it.

SPEAKER_04 52:16

Yeah, I think that's where I'm at as well. I think Bath will finish top of the table as well, but I think Saints win it. Now, Mark, are you going to agree with us or go a different direction?

SPEAKER_00 52:25

I think you know what I'm gonna say, yeah. Um I was gonna say Bath in it. I think Bath, I think by by some considerable distance, Bath. Um I take the point about Northampton Saints, and this isn't so much a prediction, but it's something that I've I've seen this team do before, and they're sixth. But I think if anyone can go and beat Saracens, get to a final out of nowhere and beat Saracens, sor sorry, beat um Bath is Saracens.

SPEAKER_04 52:51

Um so I I thought the same, and then they went and played Bath and got stuffed by them.

Governance Calls: Franchise Talk And U23 League

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Ah I know, but it's it's not a prem final. True. It's the thing they're one of those teams, aren't they? Yeah, they can get they can get hammered by Bath, they can get beaten at home by Exeter. But when it matters, they they can do it. I do think Bath will win the Prem. Um I think with them finishing top, I don't think whoever is fourth, I don't think will get near them. But then it's just a case of who's there in the final. Saints would give them a run. Um but if I was gonna really back a team against Bath, it would be Saracens, but it's gonna be Bath, I think.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

That is interesting because I think in the first two, three weeks of the season I I said that I was watching the Saracens defence, and I I think I said that they look like a team that are being drilled to counter the Bath, the way that they were defending. So I do wonder if that's part of their thinking is to be able to compete with them.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Something feels off at Saracens for me.

SPEAKER_04 53:53

Right now, at this moment in time, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

Watching just but watching them, even even in the games they win, something's just not quite clicking in the way that you'd expect it to for a team being led by Owen Farrell. I don't know what it is, I don't know what it is, but when I'm watching them, I'm thinking that doesn't feel like a Sarris team that's that's gonna beat all comers, and they're obviously not, but it's it doesn't feel like a championship team at the moment when I watch them, even in the games they win. I'm not sure and I can't really put my finger on it, but there's something when I watch them that just doesn't quite feel right there.

SPEAKER_04 54:24

I think certainly in recent weeks and maybe months, I think they've been in that space. I I think that maybe they've just lost that ability to close out games and be ruthless, which is what they were known for.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Yeah, yeah, it's just that lack of roof, and maybe it's just the fact that you know Jamie George has been in and out, it hoje is obviously out at the moment. Maybe it's maybe it's just if you if you start bringing back those kinds of players, they it's it's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

There's there's there's usually there's a team that does this every year, isn't there? I think like November last year, Sales Sharks was seventh. Yeah, and and then they got they got to the Prem final, didn't they? They do won a ton of games. Um so the fact that they're they're sixth at Christmas, and I I think they're only about six points off second or something like that. You know, you you realistically two or three wins from find yourself right back in the top. They they haven't got as much climbing as Sail Sharks had to do last year, who got to the final and looked good for it. So I kind of know you're not ruling them out, but I I just wouldn't rule Saracens out. They're just one of those sides that if they decide they want to have a crack, they will. Um they just need to decide to do it, I guess. That's better.

SPEAKER_04 55:26

Yeah, yeah. I do agree. I I I think the last two years they've been a bit though they're either unbeatable or unwinnable. Um, I think when when they have all their best players on the pitch, their back row is potentially the best out there, where it's Gonzalez and Willis. It's just the rest of them, and whether it's whether they can get that back line firing with Farrell and the centres. I think I agree. I think Saracens are ones to watch. But I've I've still tipped Saints to win anyway. So as good as Saracens, maybe they ain't getting past Northampton, in my opinion. Uh Champions Cup.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

What French team's gonna win it, isn't it? Um I've gone for I've gone for Toulouse this year. Uh I know that they had a bad result away at Glasgow, which some sometimes some teams need need a bit of a reality check, and that that Toulouse team's got too much quality in it to fall away completely after after that result. For me, it's it's still between them and Bordeaux. I don't think Leinster are the are the team to do it this year, and I think the Saints Saints are perfectly capable of getting up there again, but I don't think they will. I just think that Toulouse team is just it's just phenomenal, particularly when they get their full 15 out there, it's just so phenomenal. So for me, I think they'll they'll do it this year.

SPEAKER_04 56:36

Yeah, I think that's fair, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Yeah, um Toulouse for me as well. I I wouldn't be surprised if all of us went for Toulouse here, but um it's I find it a little bit of a shame the format is the way it is, and uh this is something that's I'm sure been spoken about a million times now. But if this was a champions cut where you had to graft to get into the last eight, I think it might be a little bit of a different conversation. But the this the top 16 teams out of the is it 24?

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

In in this, they just coast, don't they? You win your home games, you coast through, and you you don't really until the the quarterfinals, semi-finals, have to get out of second gear if you are a Toulouse, a Leinster, a Bath, a team like that. Um, so I think it makes it easier for the top level, like the cream of the crop teams. I think just I think it looks like it's just easier for them to get to the semi-final. Um I think if they had to go absolutely full noise every game in the Champions Cup and it was a final eight, it might be a little bit different. But I think that the top level just find it, I will potentially find it a little bit easier this year, and I think Toulouse are a step ahead of Leinster, La Rochelle, Northampton Saints, uh, Bat Thieves, and I think Toulouse are gonna win it. Bordeaux actually just overlooked Bordeaux like on their Bordeaux for the chance, but yeah, yeah, well I haven't gone Northampton Saints to your surprise.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

I haven't I've gone for Bordeaux personally, not Scarlet's, although I will give Scarlet's their due. Uh yeah, that was sly. I quite like Scarlets. They they've been doing quite well. Fletcher Anderson, their number eight, is some player, by the way. Um but yeah, I've gone Bordeaux. I have a sort of feeling that they want to show that they're not that Toulouse aren't the only French side that can go back to back. And I think they will be targeting the Champions Cup to show that they are at the start of their kind of their dynasty, because they went so long without winning a trophy, and it was so big for them winning it last year. I think they'll want to back that up. I think we'll see because obviously Saints are going there in the next round. I think we will see exactly the difference between those two teams. I think it'll be close, but I think we'll I think Bordeaux will show that they are still probably a step above everyone else. Toulouse obviously are the other kind of candidate. I think that that Glasgow games throw a little bit of a curveball in my brain picking them because they did they had a pretty strong team and they were well beaten. Um so that's why I've gone Bordeaux.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

Yeah, I said Bordeaux things are phenomenal.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

It is phenomenal. Uh, and yes, I completely agree with what you're saying, Mark, around the format. We've we've spoken about it a fair bit those last few weeks on the podcast about how it needs to change, it needs to go back to being based on the best of the best and elite competition, because right now you only need one win in the group stage and you can get through to the knockouts, like it's a bit pointless. And we're seeing it as making the competition not very exciting. A lot of people are turning off to it.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Yeah, it's it's a bit it is a bit too saturated. I know you've had this conversation already, but I don't think if you finish eighth in the premiership, you should be in it. Yeah, I don't think if you finish eight, you shouldn't be in it. It's champion school. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 59:37

Yeah, completely completely agree. They should, yeah, cut down the number of teams, make it so every game's important, and really redo the structure. But none of us include that in our governance predictions. That shows how how likely that is to change, unfortunately. Okay, moving on. Six nations. What are your I'm not uh actually I'm not gonna ask just for who's gonna win it. I want to know your running order from first to sixth.

SPEAKER_03 59:59

Oh, okay. Uh I think this is the year England will win it. I think I think they're the and it's you know we'll I'm sure we'll get some disagreement from uh our friends, our friends and other parts of uh of the competition, but something feels off in France at the at a national level. Um and I have a feeling that loss against South Africa is gonna have quite a long-term psychological effect on the national team. Um so I think they're they're possibly in for a wobbly tick tournament. Ireland, as I say, I think they're on their stock's on the wane. I don't think Scotland, I think the golden generation's peaked on its perennial fourth place finish. Um Italy aren't ready to step up to that level, and Wales are where they are. So I think for me it'll be England top. I think probably France will end up coming second. Um I tell do we know are they home or away with Ireland? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. That's probably the that's probably the crunch match between those two. Um I think France second, probably Ireland third. Um yeah, France, so France are at home on the Ursa on the Thursday, isn't it? Um in February. Yeah, Ireland third, Scotland uh fourth, Italy fifth, Wales bringing up the rear again, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Link to that spoon draw that they've got. Yeah, yeah. How about you, Mark?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

I've I have literally got the exact same running order. The the only thing I wanted to clarify is is England, France in London or Paris. It is away.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

So we've got the blue teams away this year. So that's the last game. That's the last game of the of the tournament. I think that's could be argumentally could be the Grand Slam Besider.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

Yeah, yeah. So if you if you said London, I'd have been like England, but I'm still I'm still gonna say England. I'm just gonna be arrogant and say England anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

England first, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Wales. Um, with some wiggle room as there often is, I think the top two could be either first or second. I think Ireland, Scotland could be either third or fourth, Italy, Wales could be either fifth or sixth. But I'm gonna go for the exact same run in order as you there. I think it's England, yeah, because partially because England look good, but partially because every other team, as you mentioned before, has something about them that says we're not going to win it. Yeah, but but when one of them wins it, won't we look foolish?

Predictions: Prem And Champions Cup

SPEAKER_04 1:02:20

Yeah, well, that's let's triple down on that. I've done the exact same prediction uh spot for spot. I've gone, yeah, England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Wales. Uh we can't all be wrong. Unfortunately, Rory, um, as we've often found out on this podcast, we can all be wrong quite frequently. Uh, but I yeah, yeah, just completely agree. I it does feel like England out of those six nations are in the best place, are in the right direction on the right trajectory. Um, so I feel like it's it's the logical prediction, I think, as well as kind of what my heart is saying being an England fan as well. But I also believe next year is the first is it next year the first year of the inaugural nations championship? Is indeed uh where we see all the nations pitted against each other in a tournament format over the summer and autumn international windows now. Uh you know, a bit interesting, it brings a bit of spice to the international window. Obviously, I'm not gonna ask us to predict where each nation falls in that. So who who do we think wins and who do we think is the runner-up?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

I'm really excited. I think that the first game England and Johannesburg against South Africa, uh, I'm really excited for that match and for this whole tournament. My gut feel is South Africa will still win this. Um, I just think that they are just streets ahead. I mean, at this point, it's just it's trite to say it, isn't it? But they are they are a team that's streets ahead. But that first game in Joburg is really exciting, and as an England fan, you know, the the the fact that as sitting here right now, going into that game with a you know a bunch of chance of actually coming away with a result, yeah. I I mean really look forward to that. That may all change depending on how the Six Nations goes, uh, if I'm completely wrong on that. But I feel South Africa to to win it, probably England to run a rap.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:04

Yeah, I'm on board with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

Mark, um tough because we've not seen the Nations Cup before. I think part of it will depend on how seriously the teams take it, and I suspect they all will take it quite seriously, but you just don't know. Um I struggle to see past South Africa. Um I just don't know who can and will deal with them up front. Obviously, you can't rule out New Zealand, rule out France entirely, you won't rule out England. I think there will just there will be, and it's great that Fiji, Japan, Italy, Wales are all involved, but I think there'll be quite a lot of routine heavy wins there until they play each other. But for me, South Africa, uh every World Cup, I feel the same. I think South Africa are gonna win it until they don't, um, and it will be the same for the nations cup. I think if South Africa really want to win it, then they will win it because they are just it it it is a game about outmusling people and they are the best at it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah, I've I've got the same prediction. I think South Africa will win it. I think England will be runners up, but I'll go one step further. I think this will be the route of England's core motivation to go to the World Cup and overturn South Africa in the final and win the 2027 World Cup. I think this is going to be the moment they'll look back on. So that's my prediction based on this prediction for 2027. Interesting. Clip that and take me back in two years' time and see how wrong I do. Yeah, that'll get cut. Um player specific now. I've asked for a breakout player of the year. This is always quite tricky to predict because we don't know who is in the running really for that, because you need to kind of see them break out. Uh, and at international level, it's really hard to kind of pick a player out who may not be in people's fourth hunts of their minds to be at that level. A player that I have I think has a chance is Calvin Gorges for France, the centre.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:05

Yeah, yeah, Gorges came to mind for me. Just looks phenomenal, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:09

He looks he is he looks phenomenal. He's I think he's he's playing for a national team who can go on and win lots of games, win lots of rugby games. Depends how often he gets picked, so it's kind of hard to say whether he's definitely going to be in the running for it. But as going off the profile of the players that were nominated this year and assuming Henry Pollock can't be nominated again, it's it's hard to think of players who could fit into that sort of category. And at this point in time, internationally, I think Gorges is one of Gorge Gorges is one of the few who would fit into like the profile of player that they look out for this award. Depending if Calorey gets more England game time, he could play his way into it, I think. But we all we've all spoken about the depth that on the England wings at the moment. It's hard to say he's gonna get much game time there. Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu is gonna be in contention for Wild Player, not breakout player. Yeah, he's my he's my pick for Wild Player of the Year. Yeah, spoiler alert, me too. Um, and I'm not sure who else there may be. Maybe that's just my lack of awareness of what's going on in Australia and New Zealand and South Africa at that kind of level. But for me, Gorges feels like the one that could have a real breakout next year internationally.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Maybe, maybe, I mean, that's a game of complaints to your bias. The only other name that because the just because of the strides they've made this season so far, to Daro. If he gets a shot, which is more he's likely to get a shot with Italy, potentially.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:32

He didn't get much of a shot in the autumn.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:36

No, but maybe that came too soon. But we'll see. I mean, his he's a I'm just thinking of play young players who have been making an impact at club level. Um but yeah, for for me, it's hard to look past someone like Gorguez. Colori, yes, for sure he's gonna be in it in and around the the debate for selection. But I don't see I don't see much past them at the moment. The fact that Gorgaz is playing first team for Toulouse, yeah. That's that's that's enough of a of a stamp of approval.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:02

I think so. I think so. It's it's not a bad place to be. Are there any others you can think of, Mark?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Um no, I mean the break the breakouts across the world. I'm not I'm not gonna pretend I'm I'm hugely over over it and just you know be like, oh I I know loads as well. But the the I think for a couple of things to happen to be nominated for breakout, you need you need to come out of like and I use Henry Pollock's path as as an example for this, you need to come out of relative obscurity into first team international and then perform international quite quickly to become a breakout. So Calorie is probably the obvious one because for him to potentially be a breakout player of the year, he's gonna have to go from Saracens into an England shirt, and it is a stacked position. But I'm thinking because of the nation's cup, will Calori get a run against the lesser ranked international teams? Because he's gone from Saracens into an England training squad, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

Could he feasibly being an England shirt by the summer? I think he could. But in order to do that, he's gonna have to play well and score a lot of tries for the club now because he's playing at Saracens, who, as we mentioned before, are sixth in the league, but I think will find their way into the top four and then potentially to the final because they they often do it. He's gonna have to play quite a big part in that. So my question I'm answering myself, and the answer is yes, is could I see Noah Calore being a big part of a Saracen's resurgence into the summer being rewarded with England caps where he then performs well and then potentially picking up an England wing shirt in the summer and being nominated for breakout player of the year? I think it's very feasible that he could. So I'm gonna go Calorey, but that is my England-centric, don't really know much about anyone else's answer.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:41

Um I don't think it's a bad shout. Like considering Caluri didn't play in the first three rounds of the Prem, he's the he's the Prem top try scorer already this season. So that's nuts, isn't it? That is nuts. Which is which isn't again heavy lifting done by that one game where he scored five tries, but still he's he's still above. He's still scored five tries, isn't it? He's still he still scored more tries. It wasn't against Gloucester or who is it against Sale. Sale. Oh, what's it? Yeah, yeah. He he bullied. He he bullied O'Flaherty. Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, so considering like he's got more tries than Arendell, who's having an absolute barnstormer, Tommy Freeman, Theu Aboso, like these are the names.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

In a mid-table team currently as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

Yeah, so I think I don't think you're far off that what what you just portrayed there as steps as what could happen 26. I don't think you're far off what could happen. I think we'll see him in the England squad in the Six Nations. I think we'll see that. Yeah. As long as he keeps scoring tries, he he makes himself droppable almost for the squad selection. It's just whether Borthwick sees him as part of the game plan. And seeing the way England play, how important the kick chase is and under the high ball, he may he he may well even get become important against the big nations uh sooner than we think as well. So I don't think you're far off the far off the mark um with Callory being in the in the equation as well. And we've kind of spoiler alerted already, but player of the year, uh I think the emergence of Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu uh in that South Africa shirt, I think he the debate around who is the best player in the world between him and DuPont is a venue very genuine debate now. In the past, I was always no, it's DuPont. I think what we've seen of Sasha Feinberg and Gomazulu is he's got a lot more to give than I've seen, and I think he is gonna have us if we're predicting South Africa to win the net the nation's champ and South Africa continuing to be dominant, it's really hard to see beyond him, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:39

Yeah, I mean he's he's he is a sensation. He's an absolute he's he's one of those players you go. I'm trying to think the the most all-round 10 I've seen probably since Dan Carter that comes to mind as a as an all-round player, like run, kick, pass, defence.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:55

He's got it all, yeah.

Six Nations Order And Nations Championship

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

I mean, and he's got wheels as well. Yeah, and he's got wheels. I mean, he's he's genuinely frighteningly good.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

All he needs to do is be good at tight head propping, and then he's the full package. Yeah. And he may well be. Yeah, he probably could be.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:08

He's he's big enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:09

Yeah, yeah. Mark, you you in agreement, or is there someone we've forgotten?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

No, funny if it's say prop. Um I I I think you're both pretty bang on. It's it's hard to look past him, but um I I mean I could be miles off, and I I just I struggle, I struggle to pick a 10 for it. I struggled to pass the look past the front row, but that's very much a me problem uh rather than a world player of the year problem. But it's very, very rare that you come across a front rower who is renowned to be the best and the one of the best on both sides. Um so a real outside, maybe a real outside shout, maybe not, maybe rose tinted glasses for me, and I think you know where I'm going with this. Thomas the Toy.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:49

Yeah, I'd love to see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

I'd love to see it. He is frighteningly good at tight head, frighteningly good at loose head, dropping the best team in the world. Um, and the front rowers just won it, haven't they? Marks win it last time. So if they go for another South African front rower, I don't know. I think I think you know, I I think you're both right in saying Gomazulu, but the uh the prop in me is saying Thomas DeToy because it's who I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:17

If Bathwin one or both of the Prem and the Champions Cup and South Africa win the nations cup, and Thomas DeToy plays a big percentage of those games, he's gonna be in the conversation for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:30

I I would love for a prop to win World Player of the Year. I would love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:34

Well, Oxenche got robbed of it, so some someone's got to give it to a prop.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:38

Props have been getting robbed of it for every year. Every year. A prop should win it every year, in my opinion. Uh it's where the real rugby's played. Uh yeah, okay, so those are our predictions for 2026. Again, listener, if you think we are wide of the mark, just let us know. We're more than happy to be told how wrong we are. And we'll round off the pod with uh our own rugby new year's resolutions uh for 2026, personally, or just generally. Rory, let's start off with you. What is your rugby new year's resolution?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:12

I think my resolution for for rugby in in England in particular uh is for the RFU to either eliminate or can or completely castrate the RFU council and take all away, we get all of their involvement from pro rugby out.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:27

You've been out to get you've been out to get them since episode one, series one.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:30

Yeah, I'm I'm my they are in my crosshairs. I want the council gone. Uh from a personal perspective, I'd like to score a try from more than one yard out. It's it's not happened yet, so it's not gonna happen this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Fair play if he'd managed to do that. I literally I struggle to think of a time I was even in the opposition 22 when a team I was on scored to even a yard out. Fair play to me miles ahead of whether I ever got.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:55

The problem is you haven't seen him play, Mark. What he's usually he just hangs around the opposition's one-yard line waiting for the game to get there, and then he's in the right position.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:03

The sign of a good player is where the game comes to them.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:05

Mark, how about yourself? Any any rugby New Year's resolutions?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

Um, I mean, I I I've put that on for myself just to offer more value. It sounds like a a bit of a um I don't know if arrogance the right word, but I I I I don't I don't need to make any resolutions with myself about staying involved in rugby and coaching because I absolutely love it. I'm fortunate to do it for a living and I like to think I'm pretty good at it, to be honest. Um but my my my TikTok page and the stuff that I put on that, I like to offer value for people to watch free of charge, um, especially around things like the mall explaining things that have happened, what um coach and selection processes look like, how coaches plan sessions, what we look for in players, things that can help develop players. And regardless of whether videos go up and it gets 500 views or 100,000 views, it it's a bit it's it's fairly immaterial to me. So my resolution is just to keep plodding on doing that on TikTok because it is genuinely nice when you get and it is largely positive interaction, which does come on the back, I think, of providing value and not really calling anyone out on it. Um yeah, so just to continue to do that and try to promote what is good about the sport as well as being balanced and critical about things that aren't particularly good. Um yeah, my resolution is just to keep providing in the game, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for uh bringing some value to Robbie's most worthless podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:34

All I was gonna say there were positively was I completely I could completely see that you are adding value to the TikTok space, and it's nice to know that there is a TikTok account that is getting positive interaction and not getting pelters left, right, and centre like we seem to get. But you know, so maybe yeah, but I would say if if you aren't following Mark on TikTok, it's uh MW Rugby Coaching. Is that the username?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

It is, yeah, it's uh MW Rugby Coaching, and just uh you know, if if you see me make team selections for international and premiership, I'll just remind you all I don't actually pick the teams, you don't need to tell me that selection's wrong. I'm not Borthwick, nor am I any other Prem coach, so yeah you do not have to tell me that you pick someone else, it's it's okay, it's it's just a bit of fun. But that but thanks for following anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:17

Yeah, we we know what it's like, we know what it's like. Uh but no, I yeah, I completely agree with that sentiment as well. I think that that's the reason why I started the TikTok channel and podcasts is just to try and bring hopefully informed discussion around a sport I just genuinely love.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

Uh it is generally quite a friendly app, isn't it? For anyone that's not on it, it is generally quite a friendly app. I think you you get what you give on TikTok, don't you? So if you if you're dishing people up, you'll get it back. But if you if you generally do things on there that are quite positive, you you get pretty good interaction. That like the perfect example of that is the guy that walks around the country making cups of tea for people. Have you seen him?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

But the love that page gets just for him doing that, like it's a perfect example of what's good about TikTok. So like you you can you can go on there and have a pretty good experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:05

You can you can uh and you really can, it's not and maybe part and parcel with the fact that Rory's not on that account, uh bringing his negativity. Uh but yeah, so yeah, my my resolution uh well it's not not really that similar, but it's basically to try and maintain my intake of rugby and my output of rugby content and this stuff at the same time as being a father for the first time with my child coming along in February. That's gonna be a tricky, tricky balance to strike. But my resolution, my new year's resolution is to try and get that balance right. So, one, I'm still a good dad, but two, I'm still a good podcast host. That's the plan.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:49

That's case, we just we just need rugby to get equal billing to your child.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:54

It it it wouldn't be a rock's balls overballs podcast if I didn't have someone at my front door, so bear with me one second.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:59

Oh, this is outrageous. Every week he gets a delivery of some ludicrous deliveries, dog food deliveries. I mean, this will be his caviar or his port or something. It's a succession of the most middle class, really descriptions.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

It'd be when the baby's first words are maul defense.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:21

We want to build the child at the pod, we want to build the podcast child. Okay, perfect rugby player.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:26

Well, also little baby Sawani Tongawea.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:30

The bedtime stories are gonna be the reading the packs out of Northampton Saints match day programmes. Um yeah, he's just pictures of Henry Pollock. Let's face it, he's not gonna be a back thrower, is he? He's gonna be a prop. And I'm I'm all for that. Uh so yeah, that's my New Year's resolution. Maybe I should also add to stop organising deliveries during podcasts as well, 'cause uh it has been about ten in a row now that's happened. Yeah. Uh pretty preposterous for me. But I think that's the podcast, chaps. Overall, that's 2025 on Rux Malls Oval Balls, wrapped up. I suppose it's just a case of are there any final thoughts from both of you before we bring the podcast to a close?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:11

Uh everyone to follow MW Rugby Coaching for 2026 and learn a little bit more about them all.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

That's a good one. That's the one. That's the one. That's the one. Anything else from you, Matt?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:20

Yeah, uh, just a thank you to both of you for having me on again. Um, I really I really do appreciate it uh having two hours to talk solidly about rugby, which I do I massively appreciate, and I'll tell you now, she's not in here, but my wife hugely appreciates the fact that you've let me talk about rugby for two hours because I'll only talk to her about it for three now into the five. So fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:43

We take we take up some of your rugby conversation allotted hours.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

Yeah, never marks, misses. You're welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much for having me on. I really do appreciate it. And anytime. I'm sure it won't be the last time.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:54

We'll definitely have you on again more in 2026 for sure. Uh and yeah, a final thought from me, which I very rarely do, is just a thank you to anyone who has stuck with us through the year, listens to us at any point, has watched any of our content on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or wherever else you absorb your podcast stuff. Just a thank you to anyone who's stuck with us, listens to us, interacts with us. It's very much appreciated. And I think for now that means for 2025, Rux Malls and Oval Bulls is out, and we'll be back again in 2026. Ta everyone