S2 Ep 19 - Transfers, Try-Fests & Turmoil

A weekend of rugby that actually moved the needle: transfers shifting the Premiership landscape, a coaching carousel with Razor-sized implications, and European performances that exposed who’s real and who’s bluffing. We open with the Newcastle Red Bulls’ rebuild and why their layered signings suggest a club planning for a full-season grind, not just headline moments. Then we zoom out to the wider market—big moves at Leicester, Gloucester’s added grunt, and Bath’s strategic silence—before asking a question few asked last year: is the Prem becoming a destination again?

On the pitch, the stories were even sharper. Harlequins went to La Rochelle and played grown-up rugby: scrum parity, ferocious defensive work, game management from Marcus Smith, and a statement finish from Merley. Bath blew past Edinburgh with a maul that’s inevitable and a midfield that looks international-ready, driven by Max Ojomoh’s control and Ollie Lawrence’s punch. Glasgow smothered Saracens with structure and line speed, while Saints somehow won big despite timing errors and impatience that should worry their coaches. Bristol dazzled then self-sabotaged against a ruthless Bordeaux led by Jalibert and Depoortere, and Leicester showed spine in Cape Town, with a youthful backline and brave high-ball work turning heads despite defeat.

We also take on the WRU’s latest plot twist: talk of Ospreys’ owners buying Cardiff and dissolving Ospreys. It’s more than a bad headline; it risks alienating core fans, shrinking a key market, and eroding professional pathways. Rugby is built on identity as much as tactics, and this one cuts deep. Finally, we map the Champions Cup knockouts: why the round of 16 feels chalky, where the quarterfinals could explode, and which paths look suspiciously smooth. Expect hard truths, a few laughs, and clear takeaways on what matters next.

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Transcript

Cold Open And Captain’s Try

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome! It's Rux Malls and Oval Balls back again for some rugby podcasting greatness. It's Dave. Back for some more podcasting fun. Joined as ever by Rory. Rory, make sure to say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Hello, listener. Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Very good, very good. I thought I'd change up my opening gambit with a slightly different phraseology. How did you feel? Did that go well?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

No, can we go back to classic?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Okay, I'll reverse to type next week because it felt unnatural. It felt unnatural. But yes, uh, very well, thank you, Rory. As I said, well, as alluded to last week, I'm very much in the uh the waiting game, and I am still waiting to bring the next generation of England's best propping future into life. Uh so we we wait another week and we'll find out if they're if that you know the sports personalities year in the year twenty forty-six.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I'll introduce him when he's here, but he's not here yet. Yeah. So listener, if David has to run out halfway through this podcast, there's a good chance it'll be because he's about to be a father, or it might just be that his latest delivery of posh pastas and dog food have turned up. We're yet to find out, but the tension is palpable.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

The tension is palpable, and there'll be a similar level of excitement on my face, uh, I'm sure. Uh, 'cause I do like my pasta. Uh well, Rory, I know there's something in this banter section that I think you are excited to talk about because I saw it on your social media this weekend that a certain side had a certain victory and a certain somebody scored what sounded like a stupendous score.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

David, the Lions battered them. And not only did we batter them, yours truly, old, old, El Capitan Morale. And one in from the edge of the 22. They're 22, not mine, but you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Was the oxygen available on the try-line?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

I may have claimed on my socials that what I did was show boat. What actually happened was uh I got the ball off in fences myself, not a bad support line with uh with the fly half, getting the two on one on the outside.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

That's very fair to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah, yeah, ran it in, um you know, obviously overcoming the immediate blind panic when I saw open pastures, and but managed to find my way to the try-line, at which point the fullback has run across to cover, uh, to which I put the uh put the hand up out and held him out. Fantastic. So then I I was just sort of momentarily stood on the try-line holding the fullback with no real idea of what I was meant to do next. And in a moment of um hubris, I thought, what will look cool is if I just sort of slowly fall back and place the ball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

What it actually looked like to everyone else was I didn't know what I was doing and sort of didn't really know how to finish the try, which actually is more accurate because I feel that's a fair, fair representation of what I'd expect to see.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

More more experienced canterers than myself would have um done the old dive from five or an ash splash or something similar. Um, but most of my tries are pick and goes from uh less than a metre out. So this was really sort of unfamiliar territory from me. Yeah, I think it's quintupled my um aggregate uh accumulative try-scoring distances up to this point for Westcliff shirt.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So uh how many signatures would be required to be sent through to the Westcliff uh committee for them to start investing in a video recording software just for the Lions games so we can uh capture these moments. Uh not even for the channel, just for my own personal sake, because I I would love to have seen this.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

No, I'd honestly I think um I think this is something that we can really campaign for. Um there's a lot of uh very senior men at Westcliffe who listen to this podcast, and I think it's about time that we got some um some real uh A V work down at the Lions Games.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Well, campaign starts now, Rory. And if you are listening, senior members of the Westcliff committee, uh I strongly urge you to consider putting up recording equipment specifically for the Lions games, where El Capitano here is putting these exploits on display because I think the world would like to see these.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Uh and you know, is this is an open invite to all broadcasters apart from Premier Sports as well, because you won't do us justice. But everyone else, come and come and film.

Westcliff Lions And AV Campaign

SPEAKER_01 4:18

We all know Premier Sports don't put boots on the ground, Rory, so that there's no point even asking that. Um Premier Sports satellite sort of watching the games from above. Absolutely not. Uh but uh Rory, I'm happy that that is our banter quota fulfilled and then sub because that's just the imagination runs wild. I I'm just very glad. All I would ask is how much was that avalanche of a victory down to your captaincy?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Well, look, you know, it's it's a team game, David. Um, you never like to um take all the credit, you know. A lot of a lot of boys put their hands up and performed on that one, but um, I've got to say I'm I think I was a good 85-90%. Um I should come clean and say I did also get a sin bin in the match for uh pushing someone over.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

That for some reason was omitted from your Instagram story. That's uh I didn't um I didn't put that on the socials. Uh and only emboldens my uh desire to have these games recorded for World to Sea, because I can only imagine that would have been quite funny. Uh fantastic. Well, Rory, we're gonna move on. As much as I'd love to stay talking about the West Lions and your own personal victories. We got rugby to talk about. Uh and we'll start off normally. So we'll go through the news, we'll do a few bits on the news, we'll talk Champions Cup round four, and then we'll do a little round up of what's happened in the Champions Cup and where that's going. Uh looking ahead. Starting off news wise, I think the right thing for us, because some people turn to us for our up-to-date, knowledgeable transfer information. Um is it about time we do another little transfer recap? Talk about the heating up of the transfers going on in the prem at the moment.

Show Format And Agenda

Transfer Roundup Across The Prem

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I think um I think we should because some of the sign-ins that have been announced since New Year are pretty monumental. Um, you know, some big headlines, you know, obviously the Red Bulls continue to write the headlines really with their with their business. But some there's some big news elsewhere, you know. The likes of Aaron Waynewright uh Leicester Tigers, that's a big, big move. Uh John Klein moving from Munster to Gloucester. We talked about that briefly last week. That's that's another big move. Um who else have we seen recently? Uh we've got let me let me let me bring up my old summary.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

My uh where I keep track of everything. It is interesting how there's some clubs where it is ghostly quiet what's going on, and others where there is rampant rumours and rampant news coming out. So, as you mentioned, so Jean Klein going to Gloucester to just today announcing Joe Joyce going to Gloucester as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Very good sign in, by the way. That those two putting a bit of grunt back in that pack, very good signings.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yes, and to uh all the uh people below the line in my last transfer update who are absolutely adamant Joe Joyce wouldn't sign for any other premier club than the Bristol Bears because he is the king of Southmead. Um I told you so. Um uh Stefan Levise leaving Harlequins.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Um actually. Um, a leader in that squad. Yeah, uh, and actually, you know, perennially injured. I mean that that is a big issue, but it's you know, that's a pack I'm often accused of lacking grunt, and Stefan Levise definitely brings that. Yes, he's he's definitely one of the ones that brought the grunt.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Uh well, so Red Bulls, I'm not sure we spoke about that. Obviously, Sir Rafi Quirk being finalised. They've signed Rafi Quirk, yeah. Huge signing Rafi Quirk, and they've signed, and I am going to apologize in advance on the pronunciation of this chap because I'm yet to hear it on commentary, so I am going a wild stab in the dark on Feihi Finian Gonofo, who is that's as good an option.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

That's as good that's as good a uh uh attempt as uh I could have expected, David.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Thank you, thank you very much. Uh but yeah, he looks like he's going to be exciting to watch.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, you know, the Olympic finalist, and to you know, that's to go ahead with some very solid signs. Obviously, Elliot Miller Mills, yeah, um Sam Graham, Sam Graham, uh Josh Hodge, obviously, Ross Toema.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

We've talked about Franco Molina, Ross Toemer.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Franco Molina, another very good sign in. They are building a massive sign. You know, there's an and there's some interesting so there's you know, there's there's some interesting profiles being linked to being linked to the Red Bulls. Um Cam Jordan from Gloucester's being linked, which is an interesting profile, you know, a very solid prem level lock.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah. Um it seems like they are they're being quite smart with their recruitment in that they are they're looking at the different levels and the different sorts of players you need to build a cohesive squad that can kind of stretch across a full season. So they are being smart, and there's so many names linked with them still. Uh, and I don't think that's gonna end. But I think also that just on Newcastle specifically, they're also making re-signings. So we saw that Brett Collins signed a contracting session, which I really signed George George Leather Barrow today. Like they they're investing in some of the current squad as well, which I wasn't sure was gonna happen. So I'm quite pleased for those who are getting those opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

No, um no, I think I th I you know I think there's been a few who have really put their hands up to uh um to stay part of the project, and those those are those three names in particular are ones that that spring to mind. Um, so the Rebels project is definitely heating up, and it's gonna be, you know, it'd be interesting how they integrate everyone. Obviously, the coaching question's still up in the air at the moment. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Um I'll be surprised there must be a name there somewhere because all these players wouldn't be signing for a club without knowing who's going to be in charge, you'd suspect.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I susp I suppose tangentially to the transfer roundup, there has been a big shift on the coaching front around the world recently. An old uh the breakdancing surfer himself getting the Heath Hope from the All Blacks, Scott Robertson, somewhat surprisingly, I think. Maybe maybe outside of New Zealand a surprise, although that sounds like the noise within New Zealand's been pretty um vitriolic on that front.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Um, but of course, he is now being linked with several jobs well across the globe, but in the Prem, yeah, Quinn's and the Red Bulls, and to a lesser extent, Gloucester as well, because it's known that they're looking for a DOR, although I suspect that's less likely. Um all being linked with with bringing him across, you know, you you start to wonder, you know, is this raising the the profile of the Prem towards the lure of top 14? Are we starting to see that kind of well not parity? That would be that would be a stretch, but there's you know, maybe a little bit more little bit more equality between the two, if not.

Red Bulls’ Recruitment Strategy

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Ask yourself this question, Rory. If 18 months ago, would you ever see a world where a very recent all-black head coach would be linked with top jobs in the prem, I would argue it wouldn't happen. If that happens, I think that shows a real step change in the profile of rugby professionals coming into the league. Um so I I think if that does come to fresh, there there's always every chance that he may get picked up elsewhere, you never know. But if he comes to the Prem, I think the coaching quality in the competition just naturally goes up. Because yes, he may not have uh had a glowing record with the all backs, but he certainly wasn't a bad coach. And he's got an excellent track record prior to when he was a New Zealand coach.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, he won seven super rugbies in a row with Crusaders, you know. You don't do that by accident.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

No, so uh whoever does get him, they have got uh a hell of a coach on their hands or a DOR. So it is interesting, it is interesting. Um this it's not really the off-season, we like it's this this window of change that we get this in rugby where it's it goes on whilst everyone's still playing rugby, but there's so much movement and stuff going on at the moment, it is um hard to keep track of it all. And I think like and even just uh to f to round off some of the other changes, so like Thomas Francis coming to sale, coming back from France. We're seeing players like coming back from French teams who um in the park they probably could have stayed in the top 14 to get maybe a pretty penny. Uh so I'll be interested to know how many more make that journey and whether Prem continues to be an appealing destination to to players and coaches alike.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

You know, I this is the sort of thing we've been crying out for.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

For the Prem to become a destination to regard for for the top players and coaches around the world. You know, we've had Michael Checker in the league recently.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

You know, maybe that was a bit of a precursor to it, but we haven't had global stars. We've had, you know, obviously the likes of Finn Russell come Lenny Katao's here on a short-term contract. You know, that's that's a uh you know a good statement of intent. But uh have the global stars been coming to the Prem on a regular basis? No. Is this the start of it? Let's hope so.

Coaching Carousel And Razor Links

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah, I I hope so. Um I guess the proof will be in the pudding of one. Kind of well, I think all eyes are on the remaining Red Bulls signings, I think, because if if any side's going to make any big big names, I think it's likely to be them at this stage. Um, although arguably the Bath recruitment's been very quiet, and we also we know that they are the other side with you know pretty deep pockets at this point, so maybe there's more to come.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, but to be fair, Bath have backloaded a lot of contracts. They have, and and they are already probably doesn't give them a lot of wiggle room in terms of recruitment at the moment, does it?

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, I suppose the difference being Baths Bath can't be far off the cap, if not slightly over. Um, whereas Red Bulls like reportedly had like two million, if not more, to spare, and they're gonna spend up to it next from next year. So that's why we're seeing all these signings and some really big names. So it is exciting. It is exciting. Uh moving on from transfers, touch on Scott Robinson, uh, so it'll be interesting to see where he lands. I think the other item to touch on maybe this, you know, the latest episode in what is the WIU conveyabelt of chaos, which is what seemingly is lining up for the demise of Ospreys in favour of Cardiff, but asking it's very confusing. Asking Ospreys owners to buy Cardiff so that Ospreys no longer exist and they own Cardiff instead.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Bizarre.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Uh yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, it is bizarre. The the mechanics of this I don't necessarily understand. Because I don't know why it's Y11, yeah. Uh, who are the owners of Ospreys. I don't know why they would be keen to shell out again to buy another club.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Other than I guess to get in at the Osprey but get in Cardiff. But then it's it's such a strange. I mean, I've seen one player was announced for both both clubs recently.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, oh yeah, so yeah, so the the is it's um Christ Schunzer is being rumoured to have signed for both Ospreys and Cardiff. It's it's basically seems to be the way that the WIU's decided to announce that Ospreys are going to be the region removed by letting it be all done via rumour and speculation and nothing official and done through leaks and you know the professional WIU method.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

The region that's just purchased the St. Helens Cricket Ground to redevelop into a rugby ground.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, the yeah, the though the region with one of if not the most successful history of professional Welsh rugby within the professional era. That that one, you know, one of the better performing regions in the URC, I think, compared to the others, you know, which isn't consistently better performing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

You know, they've had some real high moments as well. So Cardiff, right? But I think the point here is you know, Wales has very few big towns. It's effectively Newport, Cardiff, and Swansea.

unknown 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Cloneckley is actually a very small town in reality. Yes. And I'm not saying you should get rid of Claneckley because because it's historically incredibly important. But you know, your two biggest population centres really are Swansea and Cardiff. And you're gonna drop a team in Swansea.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yes. Uh make it make sense, Rory.

WRU Turmoil And Ospreys–Cardiff Mess

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Well, I I I would be amazed if there was anyone, even within the W who could. I gen I genuinely don't know who could make it make sense because at this point it's it's more than a muddle, in it. It's just it's yeah, it's beyond parody. Yeah, I just how how mad it is.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

It is mad, and I know we've joked several times that it can't get much worse for Wales, Welsh fans. If you are a listener and a Welsh fan, uh we can it's got to the point where it's not funny and it's not really I genuinely just feel sorry for them.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah because it's I I feel sorry for lots of people here, right? There's there's uh players who are now gonna be very uncertain about where their future lies if they have one. Yeah. Um there are fans who are potentially about to lose the team they support. You know, I very few people in British sport will know what that feels like. Um, you know, I the football team, my support went went bust. We actually came back as a Phoenix club, fortunately, but we did go bust. You know, it does, you know, you do feel pretty bereft when it happens.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

And then there's also a lot of people who will work behind the scenes at Ospreys and at Cardiff, potentially, yeah, who are now going to be thinking, I'm out of work. And you know, they won't even have the luxury of the kind of salaries that some of the players will be on, although some of them will not be on massive money. There'll be a lot of people in the Swansea region who are about to be out of work with you know, not any, you know, a very limited safety net. You know, it's it is uh you know, professional sport is ruthless, and you have to make ruthless ruthless decisions at times to create that kind of high performance um environment, that high performance ethos. But there is a human cost to this decision on on a number of different levels, and on top of everything else, it just seems batshit mental. It doesn't seem to make sense. So I I look you has literally never been popular. I've seen clips of people complaining about the WIU 50 plus years ago.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, this is not new that the WRU have been getting things wrong, but on this one, this could be genuinely, this this could be a mistake at the proportion that creates a terminal decline in Welsh rugby. Because if you actually start if you start making decisions that actively turn away active fans like this, particularly in your largest population centres, you're reaching a spiral. Because let's be fair, I mean Cardiff are Cardiff are actually thriving as a club, other than the fact I know they had to get bought up by WRU, but the arms part gets really good crowds at the moment. They're doing very well in the URC. You know, they seem to be on the app. Yeah, but clinically struggling in the URC, and their crowds are not great. Yeah. Newport dragons have had some an uptick in results in recent weeks. They've had it, they've had a few wins, fair play. Yeah, that's supposed historically it's not been a success. No, no, and this is not me to just to kick these regions while they're down, but the what I cannot get my head around is of all the regions you want, if you are absolutely intent, we've got to cut a region. Why are you cutting the one that's got a stadium asset that it's redeveloping, historical success, and a number of your best players? Because all you've done is forced Derry Lake and Jack Morgan over to Gloss. Yeah, yeah. You know, where the rest of them gonna go. Exactly, exactly. They just re signed um what's is it Dan Edwards the the fly off?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did. It just re-signed him. Who does he play for now? Who knows? And I think it's Ospreys and Cardiff friendly. Is that a friendly rivalry?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

I don't think it's beyond um I you know, we can call on uh old Drakey, who's uh contributed to the pod in the past to explain some of the parochial nature of Welsh tribalism. Yeah um but I believe that if you put it in football terms, Swansea and Cardiff is one of the few bubble games still active. So for anyone who doesn't know, that is where if you support one of the teams that is away, you are required to travel to that city, be put on specific trait travel between the two clubs, gorted by police, and you're escorted home again. You can't just head to the other city and head to the game because they are certain there's going to be a riot. So uh are people from Swansea and Cardiff friendly? Um not, I mean, I I wouldn't say it's necessarily getting towards uh you know action or sectarianism in regions more in the Middle East, right? But we're getting you're getting up towards sort of Glaswegian sectarianism in that kind of region.

Champions Cup Round Four Headlines

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Okay, so it's it's not going to be an am an amicable joining of uh fan bases and players and there is gonna be nothing amicable in Welsh rugby for some time to come, if ever again. I'm sorry, Drakey, and I'm sorry any other Welsh rugby fan. This it just adds to the confusion around the decision making here. Uh but you know, we'll we'll continue to observe from our uh our pedestal over the river seven and then across the umpire's chair on the other side of the seven. Yeah, yeah, like we're not gonna throw too many stones because you know we're not perfect over here, but you know, yeah, it's easy, it's easy to look out outwards and inwards, etc. etc. But Rory, we digress. Champions Cup round four this last weekend. Uh let's dig into it. It came to a close. The pool stage. Let me run you through the results for the listener. If there's any games that uh you don't know the results, you don't want to know the results, I would suggest uh skipping forward 30 seconds right now, but I'm gonna run through the results for you. So it starts off with Poe 24, the Bulls 26, in an away win in France, Bath 63, Edinburgh 10, Sharks 50, Clement 12, Bayonne 13, Leinster 22, Stormers 39, Leicester 26, Toulouse 77, Sail seven Leicester 29, Cast 31, Gloucester 14, Toulon 31, Bristol 15, Bordeaux 27, Northampton 43, Scarlets, the Mighty Lenethley Scarlets 28, Fly the Flag for Wales, go on Scarlets, LaRachelle 17, Harlequins 27, and then Glasgow 28, Saracens 3. So there's a number of interesting games here. Um obviously we said in the past we can't we can't we just physically can't dig into each and every single game, and we'll focus on the prem games. Uh but before we do focus on the prem games, are there any results there that as just an overall headline you want to draw attention to talk about anecdotally?

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I think there's some interesting results that pertain to French teams in particular. It's interesting how um what's the best way to schizophrenic French rugby compete in this competition at times?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah.

Saints vs Scarlets Deep Dive

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Um Poe losing at home to the Bulls, who bulls pulling the rabbit out of the hat to get through the group stage, and it's you know, it was a fairly strong Poe side. Um, you know, you had the likes of Atisogbi in there, you had you know Aradu, uh Tu Polotu, you know, Fundawisa was in the squad, you know, Dan Robson was playing. It's it was a strong, and it was a very strong bull side, but we've seen the bulls struggle throughout this throughout this competition. Um, you know, the bulls did roll out their their internationals, but I'm I was surprised that Poe didn't get a result at home in this one, particularly given how well they've been going in the in the top 14 home. I thought they did. It's usually a bit of a stronghold, isn't it? You would have thought so. Um Claremont bow out the competition, having really made no impact, very poor from then this year.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Bayon, very poor this overall, nearly doing the job on Leinster though, at the right at the end, just to be shit houses. Quite like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, I I do like it because they sent out a strong team as well. It was I just yeah, I was like, what is going on here? Like it seemed like a conscious decision just to make it not comfortable for Leinster.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Um yeah, it's quite funny, really, when you think about it. Yeah, I quite like it as a decision. Um and you know, I think Leinster really did squeak through in that one, so they'll they'll be um relieved today. Um Toulouse, obviously, going gangbusters, smash and smash and sell as as I think a lot of people expected. But cast going away to Munster and winning. Yeah, who would have been just because just because they won. Yeah, I mean it to be fair, they've got they've now got two wins in the ball stage, so they do finish quite well in the ball stages overall, I suppose, but no one called that one, I think. Um no, but we should the writers cut should have been on the wall with the the Munster Gloucester game, I guess, because that wasn't Munster have been really poor in this competition and deserved to go out, but I don't think anyone expected Cass to bother in this. No, you know, that's a surprise to us all. Um Toulon, very, very strong against Gloucester, and we'll talk about that one a bit more detail later on, but very, very strong, taking their strongest side. They didn't take that one lightly. Bordeaux, very strong against Bristol. Yeah, um, we'll take again we'll talk about that in more detail. Um, but La Rochelle going out. Didn't see that one coming. Didn't see that coming at all. I mean, I didn't see the Quinn's performance coming again. We'll we'll dig into that a bit more, but La Rochelle going out. I think it's what's the what I'm getting at here is that actually the the league that's underperformed and also weirdly in some cases overperformed the most is the top 14, more so than the Prem.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Who'd have thought that? The the the French league and the French teams are the ones that have provided the most um what's the word for opposing? Juxtaposised results.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Um, I mean, of the of the eight teams to drop out, you have one team from the Prem in Gloss, you have one, two, three from the URC, and four from the top fourteen.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

You know it's I wouldn't have called it at the start of the season.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

No, that's that's fifty percent of the top 14 teams are out at the pool stages, which let's face it, is the easiest pool stage in any European competition to qualify from.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, and no, the caveat is uh Toulouse, Bordeaux, Toulon are all still in it.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

That's a that's a it's a mighty fine caveat, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

But uh I still think La Rochelle going out, even in the that is a tough that was a tough pull to be fair, but wouldn't have had La Rochelle going out in that one. I would have thought Poe would have done it better given their their results at home. Claremont, I I know they're not the team they were, but in my mind, Cleremont are always a European giant.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Yeah, yeah, Claremont are Clermont are a shadow of their former selves. I would also argue, like I I get what you're saying, the Larochelle like that as a tough group, but Harlequins, who have been in the form they have been in the last three months, notwithstanding the last two weeks, have been able to get out of that group.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Larachell should have had well Harlequins won three out of their four games and got a point away to Leinster. At some point you just have to accept that Quinn's performed very, very well in this in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah, I suppose I suppose that yeah, maybe I maybe I should take that back. Maybe Quinn's I'm just so blinded by their small prem form that uh I I forget that maybe they've done quite well in this competition. But they have been awful in the prem. I'm just I'm just reiterating Ismal.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah, dreadful, dreadful, dreadful in the Prem. Yeah, but they are top scorers in the pool stages.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah, well that's fair play. Fair play to them. Right, let's do a bit of a deeper dive into our Prem Club friends. Uh and I think let's start. Should we start on Northampton? Um well, can we?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Because I th you went to this game, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Uh sadly not for for reasons I shan't go into, but I I have seen the game. Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Um I could you'll you'll have a bit a more interesting perspective than me, perhaps, on this one. I couldn't have been more disappointed by Northampton in this game, despite the you know what ended up being quite a good win, I suppose, in the end. Yeah. I thought it was possibly the poorest game I've seen Northampton play this season.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah, I I I'm not going to disagree with you, Rory. I I was not overly impressed with Northampton at all in this game.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Um given given the week before, yeah, uh, and you know, obviously came away with a point from Bordeaux, so in some ways, not a terrible result, but not a brilliant performance all in all across the whole 80. I expected Northampton to really come out all guns blazing in this one, and I thought from the off you were poor, and not because of anything other than it seemed to be arrogance would probably be a strong assertion on it, but it did seem casual, casual in terms of the application in this one.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

I don't think they're expecting Scarlet's to come out as well as they did, because they were they were very good uh in the first half, I thought, for what they were doing. They were really putting pressure on. Uh Northampton weren't able to string anything more than two or three phases together, I think, for the entirety of the first 60 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

The handling was dreadful, and it was I mean it was quite bad against Bordeaux, it was poor in this one.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, the timing seems to have dropped off. I I'd and I'm not gonna put the I'm not gonna put that on Bellow being the fly half because I I don't think I I think the runners they're they're timing their runs wrong. The amount of times that Tommy Freeman or Slight Top was slightly ahead of the ball coming to them. Well it just it just seems like it's just slightly off by half a second just across the line.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

It in the back division, they were the two biggest culprits. Yeah, if I'm slight Slight home had lobster claws all day, yeah, and Tommy Freeman um really in the last two weeks, to my mind, has gone backwards in terms of his claims at 13. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I'm not gonna disagree. I I they've not been good performances uh at all. Um, yeah it's it's it's it's an odd one because like last week I I would have said that it was a good performance, but we were let down by our set piece and our discipline. I think this week we had a bad performance and we were saved by the fact that our set piece was dominant and the other team's discipline was worse than anything I've ever seen. Like we we were let off by the fact that Scarlets were just giving up penalties for fun.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, 100%. I I think I think that Scarlets actually did properly let you off in this one.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Um I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Um I think Slither of Positivity, which I will always search for in a Northampton scenario, obviously Todaro getting a hat trick, uh his finish that sidestep for I think, which was second try, yeah, where he just absolutely does I can't remember who it was, but it's uh it's the it's the goosey, it's the goosey on uh is it I think it was Hughes the nine.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Oh, it was lovely. I just yeah, I Hughes actually landed on his ass backwards. It's quite it was good.

Bath’s Ruthless Win Over Edinburgh

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Like moments like that that are fantastic. I th I think Todaro for someone who's come from literally obscurity from last season, he probably has to be our first choice winger at this stage. And when you consider in that pool of players, you've got Slight Hole, you've got James Ram, you throw George Hendy in there, you're assuming Freeman is playing in the centres. That's some that is some trajectory of kind of moving up the depth chart.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Well, he's got to have over 10 tries already this season, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Oh, absolutely. He's he's his trial just seemed plus, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

His tri-speed is ridiculous. Yeah, he's been phenomenal all season and a a real testament to the hype that you you were giving him last season. I take all yeah, you and you should. Um I think you're right to highlight him. Um, but yeah, I mean, outside of that, the scrum was very impressive, but if we're being frank, against a not brilliant um Scarlet Scrum, not helped by Jake Ball having to go off early.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah. Um Yeah, yeah, I I think it was almost shades of the game the week before, but in this case, Northampton were playing the Bordeaux role where we just had an obviously dominant scrum and we just used it to our advantage. Yeah. Um but yeah, I think even like I've I've like Henry Pollock had a good game, but again, like I don't think anyone really, really shone other than Todaro, and I think most players will probably come away from that game with more things to work on than things to be happy with.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Um I I wonder if and I I feel where you you don't want to take you don't want to put the brakes on the way Saints play, but maybe there's a case of missing a bit of game smarts in it because it seemed like you were running at 100 miles an hour at every occasion and getting it wrong more times than you weren't.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, I did feel like we were trying to force it off of the first or second phase very soon, and it it just wasn't working, and and I think the more we forced it and more to try to make it work, it just made it worse. I think there were there's probably would have been an argument for Alex Mitchell to just kind of play a bit of possession game, get a bit of control back in the game, certainly in that first half where we were really kind of going toe to toe punch for punch with Scarlets at that stage. Um I think we've a bit of game control, which is something that we've not really there's been games so far this season where I think the control of the match has been in question, but in recent weeks we've kind of ignored that because they've it's been working and it's been clicking. I think we've gone back to a point where it's not clicking and then it exposes that weakness perhaps a little bit. Yeah, um, but you know, I maybe the Six Nations is coming at a good time for Saints where maybe maybe just a bit of a re-re-checking of the things. I'm not saying we're at a crisis or there's anything wrong, like we're at top of the table, like in the Prem. I'm not coming.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

It's a chance just to re-reassess, isn't it? Just reassignments. You know, you get into crunch time now.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, and and Saints historically usually come into form in the March, April, May run. I think the slightly harder ground, usually dry conditions, suit Northampton, obviously. Uh so I I'm not worried overly. And they did the most important thing, which was to get that win, that bonus point win that secured them a home draw in the knockout rounds. Um, but we'll talk about the draw of the knockout rounds later. But I'm not coming away from this thinking Northampton were spectacular. I think if anything, one of their worst performances, it's just the nature of the beasts that they they were too good for Scarlets. Uh, even on a very poor day, they were still able to put 43 points on them. Uh but I thought Scarlets looked quite good for what they were worth. Fletcher Anderson, I've been really impressed with him all competition. I think he's a very, very combative eight.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

I thought he was good. I thought Ryan Elias was good. Yeah, Elias was good. I think very confrontational. Um, I thought the two wings once again were good.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah, yeah, both wings. Josh McLeod, absolute nightmare at the breakdown.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, McLeod was very good again. Um, and I thought Costello, Costello looked good. Yeah, he managed to get a really nice chip. Yeah, a really nice chip at the end for uh Davis's try, I think it was.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, Jack Davies.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, um, yeah, I thought I thought he looked, you know, I rarely I've rarely watched him at club level, I've only seen him sort of in struggling Welsh outfits, you know. You watch him games like that, you can see why there was um they were keen to get him involved.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, a nice little fine swan swong for swan swong, swan song for the Welsh uh region in the competition. Um should we move on, Rory? Because let's I've I'm not normally I talk Northampton for hours, but it just wasn't that good of a performance. Should we talk about Bath? Because I think they are writing the wrong of last season by really putting a statement down, I think. That's that's how I'm reading this.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

They you know, I I think it's very clear for all in Sundry that Bath have come this year with an intention in this competition. You know, I think even in the the away defeat at Toulon, you could see how um focused they are on this competition. Um this performance, you know, I have to say, I felt rather sorry for Edinburgh in this in this game. Not because um not because of you know any anything they they were doing wrong or any any you know anything particular on that front, but just they got Bath on a week when Bath were not going to give it up easily. No. Um and I mean it's it's not worth reviewing this sort of a play-by-play because Bath were rampant almost from the off. Um, I think it is worth highlighting some of the some players in this team that were particularly good. Um the billion for me is Max Jomo again.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, he continues to impress, really, doesn't he?

Harlequins Stun La Rochelle Away

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Um I mean he's just getting better and better every week at the moment. Um, watching him up alongside Lawrence is just tantalising from as an England fan. Um it's the combination, he's such a triple threat because he's got all the ball skills, you know. He's you've you've seen him fill in at 10, 12, and 13. Got all the ball skills, yeah. He's got the kicking skills, but he's also got the athleticism. Yeah, you know, he's you know, he's not lightning quick in the sense of you know, like a Henry Arundel, but he's quick. Yeah, but you don't need that much well, do you don't need lightning quick? No, no, and he's but he's also got to be what six foot one? Yeah, good good size, six foot one, so probably something in the region about 15 stone, sixteen stone, something in that kind of that kind of region, you know, you combine all that together, it's that is a proper purpose-built athlete, you know, with and with his with his game ability and his his ability with the ball is just really, really quite something to watch.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

And I think it's quite some headache for Borthwick, I think. Like if you're going off this weekend alone, are you looking more optimistically at an a Jomo Lawrence centre partnership than you are a Dingwall Freeman one?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Well, it's it is a very it's a genuinely difficult question to answer at the moment because obviously Dingwall Lawrence beat the All Blacks. A Jomo got an uh a man of the match performance against Argentina and is absolutely flying at bath. Yeah. Freeman, I'd say a mixed bag at 13, but you've seen what he can do there.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Um, I'm probably leaning more towards a Jomo Lawrence at the moment, but any two of those four I could you can make a genuine case for. And that's you know, you could still got to add in the likes of you know Henry Slade, who has been phenomenal for Chiefs this season. Yeah, people are people are forgetting how good Henry Slade is, and he's moving it down at Sunny Park, and Seb Atkinson, who is coming back into some form and fitness that you know got him on the plane to Argentina in the summer.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, yeah. Like centre is no longer a problem position like it was 18 months ago. Like I was really struggling to see where they were coming. They've come out of everywhere. There's there's Massey White, who's come back from injuries, started scoring tries.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Yeah, he's been excellent for sale. Um Will One.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

I mean, there's there's numbers.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

There's World One's been great.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

You know, it's it's a problem position in the sense that we still don't have a settled partnership at international level, but Jomo Lawrence in this game just excited me.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Um who else tell you who else excited me in this game is Thokon and Singer.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Uh yeah, where'd that come from? He's he's been pretty absent most of the season by his standards. But that was one hell of an expo uh performance from him that I haven't seen this season yet.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I mean he's he's a freakish athlete. Yeah. You know, he you know, he's six foot five, probably seventeen plus stone, and he I would imagine he runs a ten point five hundred something in that kind of region. You know, he He properly, properly like Lomu esque athletically. Huge athlete, yeah, absolutely. But but there's always been a bit of a suspicion, I think, from a lot of people that he's he's kind of a he's a player that's lent on that as opposed to his all-round kind of game ability, which is probably harsh, yeah. But you know, that's I think that's I think that has been the sense from a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

And that's and that's coming from two props.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Yeah, you know, you know, we're we are not freak athletes, we're just you know, we're just freaks. But I think anyone who's watched Bath in the last 18 months in particular has seen the value of what a player like that can do. And on form like he showed in this game, he's he's putting his hands up again. Now, I don't expect him to be in the mix for England. I suspect that time's been and gone. Um but he was showing it in you know, he was showing it in the highball battle, yeah. He was showing it in uh how he appeared in in gameplay and in Facebook, you know, the way he set up Ben Spencer for his try. Yeah, lovely arcane run round to the other wing, yeah. Uh making the break. And he's showing it in scoring tries. Because I tell you what, there are not too many players on the planet who could stop him going at full tilt when he's running at into the try-line.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

There certainly weren't many in Edinburgh shirts.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

No, no, no. I I'd say um uh was it Satala Navlivu? Yes, who I think was on debut debut and a tough assignment for a lad on debut. It was, it was.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Is it also worth drawing attention to the fact that once again the entire bath front row scoring some rather spectacular tries?

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Yeah, I mean I'm I'm leaving a barn I'm done in my um starting lineup in the Champions Cup at the moment because the whilst they they are so capable of playing brilliant rugby bath, but they revert to types so quickly.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

But it's because it's so effective. Like they know that it's effective, it just works. Their rolling mall is nearly unstoppable, and they're the way their forwards carry, pick, and go, it's inevitable. Uh, we've seen it time and time again in the Prem, and I think uh some of our European friends uh have been on the the rough end of it, and Edinburgh certainly were in the first half of this game.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah, I mean they to be fair, they tried to build in a bit of subtlety into it this time with the Ubano try. Yeah, with um Barberiri running the kind of the unders line behind the ruck and popping it to Ubano. That was that was a nice little bit of subtle variation. Actually, don't expect to see that in the knockout stages too often.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

No, um but you just reminded me that I did want to bring this up. Barbary, he he has hit a rich vade of form.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Tom Willis, Tom Willis no longer on the radar. Well, could you get a bit is he the closest we could possibly get to a Tom Willis style eight? If Borthwick was feeling experimental, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

I mean, you know, in terms of not to not to be too reductionist on those two players, because there's a lot more to their game than oh, yeah, obviously, yeah. But as as massive ball carriers, Barbary is probably the only eight natural eight playing in the Prem that could do some of what Willis does. Yeah, obviously you're the likes of Charler Cunning himself, but is he a natural eight? Probably not. Don't think Don Brandt's quite got that explosivity and contact to do that. Ben Els, Bizalao, they're very different types of players. You know, you probably are looking at Barbary if if that's what you want is a big bruise in ball carrier. Yeah. So yeah, you know, you've at least got to ask the question, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Yeah, and I I've been a huge Barbary advocate for a long, long time. Back when he was he was a hooker at Wasps going through the academy. Um, so to see him what may be him hitting some really good form in an international window just makes you wonder what what could have been. Um obviously he's had some horrendous injury moments in his career, uh, but he's still relatively young and he's he does offer something a point of difference. So I'm no selector, but if I were I'd be having a little double take at the Barber performances at the moment. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

He is not a line out option.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

No, no, he's not a line out option. You're quite right.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

But I think at the moment, I think that's what's potentially going against him.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

But considering the way Borwick likes to pack his pack with what is predominantly nearly I think if he could, he would have the props jumping. Um I think you can afford one or two who aren't jumpers.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

I I I agree, I agree, but you you you need to ensure that Guy Pepper is a is a is a proper line out forward, which he's pretty close to. I don't know if he's absolutely now at international level, but you know, he's obviously six foot four, so that's not a bad option to have. But you you then who's a seven probably or underhill. Underhill's not a line out option, really. Um well well uh Ben O Benell probably could be, but he's not too he's a fucking ten.

Glasgow Smother Saracens

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Just go full Bath back row of Ted Hill, Guy Pepper, Alfie Belly. Genuinely not. Um you know, obviously Henry Pollock coming off the bench, but you know, I digress. Uh anything else on Bath?

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Well, speaking of Guy Pepper, he was everywhere, he was he was phenomenal. Um again, it's just the engine on it on him is outstanding. Um, the only other not a bath player. I think the shining light for any role again was Freddie Douglas. What a player he is going to be. And it already is. Yeah. Really, really, really excited by the prospect of him.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yes, and I think you're you were right to tip him in your break breakthrough year this year because he looks like he is going to be an absolute pest for Scotland. I hope he gets game time this year for Scotland because I think he is probably one of the best players over the ball I've seen in a long time. Um his turnover work is incredible. Like genuinely a marvel to watch. Like if there's any youngster out there who wants to get better at jackaling, go watch Freddie Douglas replays. I think you gotta I think they've got to pick him. I've got to. You've got to. I'm like and he's still like he's he's what 20, 21? Like 20, yeah. Like fair play. Like he he is definitely better standout for Edinburgh, and he's you could probably put a little piece together to suggest that he may be the reason why they've qualified from this ball stage. Because his turnover work has been incredible.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

He completely battered Gloucester. He's probably the reason that Edinburgh got got back into that match on his own because he stole so much ball off Gloucester.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah, in four games in this competition, he's got ten turnovers.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Yes, it's it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous in a top-level champions cut for a non-fancied team.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah, it's incredible. Uh but yeah, as we say, Bath, they they're going full guns in this competition, and we'll see how far they go. We might touch on the draw a bit later on and the interesting path they may need to take. Um and I say interesting with a real tongue-in-cheek moment, if for those who are aware of the draw already. Uh but moving on, next game is talk Harlequins, probably the most unexpected result of the round. Are they actually have they actually turned the corner? Because we suggested last week that maybe it was just a one-off kind of they were centred easy, easy win against Storbers. Have they actually clicked overnight as they seem to have suggested they have?

Bordeaux Outgun Bristol

SPEAKER_00 47:25

You've got to take it with a pinch of salt at the moment, because although they've strung two very good performances together, and you know, you that's that that is what it is, you know. They have strung two very good results together. Um, and this game in particular is a phenomenal result and a phenomenal performance, um, I have to say. The question for me is does this does this reflect in their league form? Are they trying to replicate what Saints did last year? Um was the rather pointed remarks from uh god the coaches there, Jason Gilmore after their last league loss, where he said people are playing for their futures, has that lit a bit of a fire? Yeah, um, it's difficult to know where this where this sort of all naturally will end with Quinn's, but I think on this on the strength of this result, you could afford to let Quinn's fans just enjoy it for what it is because winning away in La Rochelle is is tough for anyone, yeah. Um, and to do it in a manner where they looked the better team pretty much throughout the whole game.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

And it wasn't it was not a weak La Rochelle side either.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

No, no, no, no. Let me let me throw some names at you. Uh Dylan Lades, uh Nini Ashvili, Ihah West, uh Winnie Antonio, Boudon, Jigut, yeah. On the bench, Wardy, Sklavi, Aldrit, Castoy, Jack Noll, you know. Yeah, that's that's stacked. There are serial winners throughout that squad. Um, and they looked uh rocked by Quince throughout this whole game. Um, Winnie Antonio was bullied at scrum time all day by Simon Carrot. Um ever thought I'd hear. No, I say slightly tongue in cheek. I mean, Winnie Antonio, I suspect if he was here to have his right of reply, would suggest that he was refed out of the game. Um, and then he I think gave away four scrum penalties overall, and I would say at least one of them I would have questioned, you could probably make a case for two, yeah. But actually, Quinn Scrum was phenomenally solid in this game. They gave away one or two penalties um and they crumbled a little bit at times, but given the fact that Finn Baxter wasn't playing, uh Boris Venger's not playing, you know, you got Hobson on the bench. Um, I thought they held up remarkably well, and the fact that they got Otonio, you know, more than one over on Otonio, I think is is really really impressive. Um the the defence they showed belies everything we've seen from them in the prem up to now. Yeah. I mean, dogged, dogged is is the only word for it, culminating in right at the end of the game where Marcus went to fullback. Um, and there was a moment before the game was sewn up where Nineshvili got free on the left uh and would have been able to, I think it was to would have brought the game back to um would have been able to bring the game back to uh 24-year-old and Marcus slotted him off the pitch. I you know, a massive hit, given he'd already been binned for a high shot already in the game. Um it was textbook absolutely slotted him off the pitch, and it was um it was the culmination of what had been an incredibly dogged and determined defensive performance from from Quinn's to the point where you know I've seen LaRochelle still scored three tries. I mean, Nini Ashvili's first try, um the so the first try, it was probably off LaRochelle's first real attack of Times. Yeah, Quinn's had a lot of the early ball and a lot of the early territory, um, but they had to really punch away at Quinns to create the hole, you know. They Quinn's didn't give it up easy, um, and that was sort of the story of all of their tries, really. Um, you know, they had to the Bergeon try is probably the exception because it comes off a scrum that crumbles. Uh, one of the few that did, and that was right after Quinn's made all their substitutions, and Aldreep makes the break and feeds Bergeon to score. But outside of that, you can't really criticize their set piece or their defence. Um, and then on top of that, Marcus Smith put on a performance that showed true international fly half quality, yeah, just controlled the game from the first minute, kicked incredibly well. You know, I I not just didn't kick badly, barely even put through a less than brilliant kick, you know, just constantly making the right decision at the right time. Um, Hayden Murley was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal from the off, actually. You know, he was making breaks from the off, you know, really, really coming into his own at the moment, Merley. Um, very good finish for his try as well in the corner on 40 minutes, taking Quinn's into the lead at the break, which was um deserved but probably unexpected at that point where you think Larishel's probably going to keep him out. Yeah, um, they look a million times better with Tyrone Green back at fullback, million times better. Just looks so much more dangerous coming out from the back with his ability to run it in at full tilt into whoever has the unfortunate job of trying to tackle him. Um, Lucas Friday looked the air apparent to Danny Care. Yeah, controlled the game, kicked well, passed well, you know, sniped enough to keep people interested, but didn't get caught, showed a bit of niggle, you know. At one point almost got himself in a tussle with Bottier, which I I would I would tell sort of heavyweight boxers to hesitate hesitate into in that particular conflict. But Lucas probably was right in there.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Um you know, to a man, Quinn's were good. I mean, Jack Cenningham looked brilliant in a in an impressive season by personal standards. Jack Cenningham once again looked brilliant, again putting his hands up for to get back in the England squad.

Tigers Push Stormers In Cape Town

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's just it's a nice feeling that um we can talk positively about Quinns this year, because I don't think since the start of the season we've done it once yet, so you know let's enjoy it while we can.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Yeah, we've I think the only time we gave them credit was when they beat Saracens.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Um but that's but apart from the Saracens game, this is probably their first really, really good performance with no caveats. Yeah. Obviously, the Stormers win um was against you know the Stormers. They were South Africans, they could have been 45, you know, who knows. Um they the Bayon win was against you know, Bayon D team. Yeah, there was a a bit of praise for how they got four tries away at Leinster, but you know, they still shipped 50. Yeah. I would say this probably eclipses the Saracens performance, given that we now have a bit more context on Saracen's level this season. But this performance, you know, even though I know La Rochelle were not the La Rochelle they were a few years ago, I know they're mid-table in top 14, you know, they've not got loads of they've not had heaps of great results in this, but you know, they nearly beat Leinster last week. You know, this is a LaRochelle team that is perfectly capable of springing on any team they come up against, and they they were all out of ideas against Quinn's in this one. You know, Quinn's properly properly managed them off the park. Um, yes, super impressive like test match level performance from them.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Yeah, yeah. It'll be interesting to see if that if if Harlequins can uh keep it up. Uh, I think that's that's where I'll be focusing on. Is it a flash in the pan, or is it something we're gonna have to consider going into the second half of the prem season? Is the Six Nations coming at the worst possible time for them if it's just clicking? Uh we'll see. Possibly. Moving on from Quinn's. Uh you alluded to it there. Saracens, have they really found their level? Because they were given a bit of average and given a bit of a clinic by Glasgow, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Um yeah. I you know, we keep we keep saying, and I think I've I think we were the first to call it this season that something's not right.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Naturally, we're on the we're on a pop, we're on the pulse of rugby, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

It just is classic us. We we are the zeitgeist. We are um, but even when Saracens were stringing some results together in a prem, I didn't I wasn't overly convinced by them. And you know, I'm sorry to say for Saracens fans, you know, they are proving me right time and again. And I wonder if we've overestimated the quality of some of their players or the quality of the squad overall, or if it's just a case of they haven't kept up with the times and it's their tactics that are suffering in in the current format. But no, Glasgow aren't a freewheeling, you know, all out attack Bordeaux style team.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

No, I'd I'd call Glasgow the Scottish Bath.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

System very systematic, very solid, very effective. Uh there's there's no there's no whatever there's no whistles, there's nothing overly fancy about them, but they are it's like a machine that just keeps on whirring and it's it doesn't slow down for you. If you don't keep up, you get f you fall by the wayside, and that's what Saracens did. They were not able to keep up with what Glasgow were doing. Yeah. And they couldn't figure out a way through them. Like the the Glasgow defence just absolutely smothered Saracens, and they did not have an answer for it.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, is it a coincidence, you know, Bath being coached by Johan Van Graan, Glasgow being coached by Franco Smith? South African coaches are are in vogue at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Well, and it's a very South African South African style of rugby, I'd I'd argue. And it's always backed by physicality and backed by being as dominant as you can be in the tackle and being as dominant as you can be at the breakdown and picking your moments.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

And if you do all that, it's you can't beat it, can you? Really? It's it it just ruthless, ruthless efficiency is very difficult to beat, even for a team like Saracens that used to epitomize that.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Well, I think, yeah, it's it's it's exactly what Saracens used to be. And I think what we what we what we are seeing, and as you alluded to, Saracens are not the force they were. They may still have a number of those big name players, Atoji, Ben Earl, Jamie George. But I think whether it's that um kind of that wolf pack mentality that they used to vaunt. I don't see that anymore. Um where they used to kind of hunt as a pack. That doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe because there's been changes, maybe there's a the profile in player is so different across that that team, like the the age difference, maybe it just doesn't have that unity like it did in the past where it felt like it was 15 brothers, now it feels like it's 15 guys that are paid, are paid to play for each other.

Toulouse Hammer Sale

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Is the Mark McCall era becoming a bit tired at Saracens? Well, we are they you know I put it in some context, they've qualified through the Champions Cup groups. Okay, admittedly, not that necessarily the difficult task it used to be, but they have done it. Yeah, they are still in the hunt for top four spots if in the Prem, if not necessarily within our our perceived chasing group, but they're they're chasing the chasers, to be fair. Yeah, um, you know, it's not like the arse has fallen out of Saracens, but you know, given the the lofty standards that we hold them to as a club, in the last I mean, even last season, really, you know, is something's starting to feel like you know the the towers are crumbling a little bit, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 58:49

Yeah, I it feels like that they're I think I I think they've got the players coming through to do something quite special. It's just whether the players coming through. I I'm not sure the players coming through fit the same way that the previous Saracens Golden Generation was able to be utilized. I don't think it's that that type of player they've got coming through. They're all very mobile, they're all very athletic, but they don't it's not a power game. And like you just look, I think they just need to have a rethink, go back to the drawing board and figure out where are their strengths, where do they need to exploit better, where where where will they get their their preferential matchups? Because I don't think it's where they used to be.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Yeah, I think I I think you've you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there because actually, at the moment, with the likes of you know, obviously Noah Clory, the Bracken brothers, even Fergus Burke to to an extent, a back row, you've got a back row of McFarlane, Gonzalez, Ben Earl in starting in this game. Yeah, they're all free. Are they fit in square pegs in round holes to fit this game plan? You know, you've got someone like Evan Van Ziel, whose natural inclination is to take the pace off it and take the heat out of it. But you've got a number of players that, you know, Cintick, Elliot Daly, too, you know, even Shagan even. You've got players. Players there that their natural their natural game feels to me like one that just says just let's just go. Yeah. And you're I I wonder if they're trying to fit too many square pegs and round holes in this in this team.

Toulon Too Strong For Gloucester

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah, well I that's what I think it is. And I think whether it does require a new new brain in the coaching department, I don't know. Like yeah, I'm not gonna sit here and say Mark McCall hasn't been an absolute brilliant servant to Saracens and continues to be an excellent coach. But arguably the best coach in the history of the Prem. Yeah, but are his ideas conducive with the squad and the game plan he has in mind for a successful premiership or prem rugby football team? I don't know. Um I guess the rest of the season we'll we'll find out a bit more. But if if I if that was me involved, I'll be looking at ways to really rewrite the game plan and use the weapons they've got in a different way. Because they have got some weapons, they've absolutely got weapons that could really cause a lot of teams a lot of problems, but I just don't think they're set up for it at the moment. Well, we saw Glasgow were able to nullify them, shut them down, Saracens didn't have an answer and were able to go through their group stage unbeaten. So fair play to Glasgow, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think finishing top seeds in the whole competition, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

Yeah, one of, if not the. So fair play to them.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

Uh no, definitely, yeah, absolutely. They were top seed. Yeah. So, you know, I think superb in that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

So, yeah, don't take your eyes off Glasgow, although I do suspect maybe a different opposition may challenge them in ways they haven't been so far. But we'll see. Moving on from Saracens, let's go to Bristol, the maybe uh maybe maybe not surprise package of this year's competition from the Prem, because I think we're not surprised by the way they've played, but they've certainly outperformed their probably previous track record in Europe by putting some seriously good performances at the play, and they had the unenviable task of playing the previous champions in the fourth round. Thankfully, it was at home. But headline for me, they didn't half give them a good battle.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Well, yes and no. Um they look, they they they had a crack, there's no doubt about that. And I think um there are there are a lot of players in that Bristol side who came out of that game absolutely in credit, right? Um Ellis Gaines once again, brilliant. Yeah, and the fact that he I think he went the full 80, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Um he did similarly struggle with Carlo Sady as Faschetti did the week before, but he did correct he did correct it eventually.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

He did correct it eventually, and he I think he struggled in a slightly different way. He wasn't he wasn't getting battered backwards. I think he was struggling with some of the more full games.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

I think he was being crowded out.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

Yeah, um, but he I got on top of him in the end, um, and I think he he was good against Tamafuna as well, actually, and you know, given that he was going the full game. But in the loose, I mean carried like a demon. I know he spilt one over the line in you know, by his stance, he should have finished it. It would have been it would have been a hell of a finish if he had done it. But I thought he was excellent. I thought the locks were brilliant. Rubiolo and Batley were both superb. Um Rubiolo's so good, he's so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

He's phenomenal, phenomenal. Um he's like 23. I yeah, the fact he's gonna be around for another 10 years. He's he's gonna be some player when he reaches like lock maturity late age, which is like late 20s, early 30s. He's gonna be some player.

Knockout Draw And Pathways

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Yeah, once he gets his dad's strength, he's gonna be ridiculous. Yeah, um, I thought Grondona and Hardin um in the back row were very, very good. Um, Joe Owen when he came on was very good, I thought, as well, actually. Yeah, yeah. Um, Harry Randall had one of his best games, I thought, in that first half, just for tempo-wise. Yeah. Um, yeah. Tom Jordan, I thought was good until he went off. Joe Worsley, tougher game. I'll talk about that a bit more detail. Um, JVR, Bernard Jansservan Rendsberg, again, very good. Great finish for his try. Yeah. Um, Williams, very good with the ball. The problems for me just stemmed from a bit of the age-old disease for Bristol of bad choices at bad times and kind of shooting themselves in the foot. Um, you know, I think also Olgray scores first, I think it's the first attack for Bristol basically, after just just shy of 10 minutes. Um, and it's a really, really good attack. They've they force a knock on, Harding kicks it through, they win in the jackal penalty, Randall taps and goes, and then Olgray and Genj pick and go together right over the top of Leb Beep. Poor Labit Beep. I mean, textbook, absolutely textbook try right. That's like if you were right in the blueprint of what do you want to do against Bordeaux, absolutely textbook there. Um, and then just three minutes later, Lewis Reese Samet gathers the ball in the backfield, puts over a really poor chip that goes straight to Jallybear, who then breaks and puts uh Le Beat Bibb into the into the corner.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Yeah, I I Re Reese Amit did not have his best game, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

I I think bad game, actually. I thought I I think I'd call it called Spade Spade.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

I thought he was poor. Yeah, yeah. I think he he he shipped a load of turnovers. I've I think was one of his turnovers the start of one of their other scores as well, where he just turned it over when he didn't need to.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Yeah, um well he was charged down in the second half, uh, didn't need to try, but he you know, he definitely got charged down at one point, you know. Um Biaberet's second try was a Bristol spilt the ball. Yeah, and you know, it was just because it was such a mad game, there was very little like stoppages, there was so much ball in playtime, it looked absolutely exhausting to play. And these are the two teams best placed to exploit those situations, but it's just a case of who's better at it, and it's the team with Jalabarea and B.O.B. ultimately who to thunk it. Who to thunk it? Sometimes all you just need is the two best players on the planet uh in that type of game.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Um, you know, Deporter's try it as a it was another gift. Uh so Bristol spilt the ball, gets hacked on. Joe Worsley doesn't click, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

Sam Worsley.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

Sam Worsley, sorry, not Joe Worsley.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

Um although Joe Worsley might have done a better job on the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

Yeah, I well possibly. Um you know, he doesn't field the ball in the back and it spills and they hack on the score it. It's basically it was three turnovers, three tries. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Did you hear the commentator really put the curse on by saying at the start of it, oh, these are the two teams that haven't conceded any turnovers that have led to tries, and then proceeded to proceed.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

I mean, to be fair, the the the Ogre try comes from a team.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

I know, it's uh it's typical.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

All of them. Um George Klosker, another one with lobster claws this week, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

Um, and you know, I've got a lot of time for Klosker because I really respect the fact that he converted from hooker to tight head, post going professional. You know, that is that is difficult to do. It's a big transition and be good at enough to hold your own against Jefferson Poirot. You know, that is that is tough. George Closco has turned himself into a very good tight head, yes, but his handling was crap. It was crap in this one, yeah. Um yeah, Bristol they were just wasteful, they had opportunities to get back in the game, they had opportunities to really really put Bordeaux under pressure, but actually, I don't think Bordeaux ever looked unlikely to lose this because you couldn't guarantee Bristol would string enough pressure together to actually score. Um, you know, maybe if Genj hadn't spilled it over the try-line, it would have been different. But you know, it's yeah, you know, another good example, right? So Bernard Savens Rensburg scores his try at 65 minutes, right? Revu breaks, it's a really good finish one-handed under under loads of tackle pressure, right? It's a great, great try. Yeah, but then uh Worsley tries to chip and chase in the 22 and they end up giving away a penalty uh because it gets charged down. Yeah, it's like the first thing you do, and then straight after that, this after they score the penalty, he kick he sends the kick off dead. Yeah, it's your own worst enemy. It's you know we talked Worsley's had a couple of really good performances this season, right? A couple of man-in the match performances, and we've talked about you know the strength of character to come back from some you know I think his debut in particular was some bad games, yeah. Yeah, but this was this was a bad performance, and actually not symptomatic of his performances this season, but I have to say losing Tom Jordan looks like possibly what what did it for Bristol in this one because um unfortunately the lack of control and game smarts at 10 seems to be one of them? The general hands were poor at times, very very profligate and just wasteful.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

And are you if you're wasteful to Bordeaux, they punish you. And beep did certainly punish them. Uh another player getting a hat trick. Uh his his try-scoring record is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Yeah, I mean I mean his all-round game, Lundar Rod's right, his defence is very good in this game, you know. Not great under the high ball, but he's five foot hit six or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

His positioning is fantastic though. Like he he he is textbook like positionally what you want from a winger, and that and I think that's why you don't see him getting exploited all that often, because he's always in the right place.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Always in the right place at the right time, and just I mean, it's it's trite to say it now, but the express space, yeah, when you see when you see it up against quick players like you did in this game, it really is something else, in it. It you know, he he's so fast, he makes fast people look slow.

Six Nations Squads On The Horizon

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Yeah, I think that's that is a perfect way to sum it up. Uh but yeah, but Bristol have not let themselves down in this competition so far, and they they put up a good a better a better show against Bordeaux than Northampton did the week before. I'll give them that. Yeah. Uh moving on, Leicester with the unenviable task of going down to Cape Town and taking on the stormers who are storming the URC. Uh but this did not go as I thought it would. Looking at the side that Leicester put out and the side that the storm was put out, I thought this was going to go in a similar route to a certain game that took place in Toulouse this week, but not didn't quite go that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

Well, given yeah, given that side, I thought you know, shellacking.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Um the performance on the pitch from Tigers was nothing short of superb, actually, given given all of that. Given that, you know the storm of scrum was you know bulldozers wouldn't wouldn't have stopped it. You know, it was it was all over them. Um, you know, given that in a 19-year-old at fullback, yeah, who was superb, uh, you know, really good finish for his try, but just generally superb. You know, you didn't have the two biggest hitters at centre. Woodward and wand were phenomenal throughout this whole game. You didn't have Adam Radwan, Haymer Webb was absolutely stepped up.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

Um he's made the whale squad Haymar Webb.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

Deservedly so absolutely deserves to. Um now I I was thoroughly, thoroughly impressed by his performance. And actually, part of me wonders if it would be unkind to those players to ask the question of what would have happened had they sent the full compliment. Um but you know, I think it's worth asking the question because you know, if you'd put you know the the propping stocks at full tilt, yeah. If Joe Hayes, if Joe Hayes starts in that game, yeah, does it is it a different story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if Nikki Smith starts in that game, is it a different story? Maybe that's I mean, and to be honest, that's possibly the only change you'd necessarily want to make. But all round, I mean, I thought the Tigers were absolutely brilliant, and I thought they were gonna do it to be honest at one point. Um yeah, I think they're they're unlucky not to come away with more than one point.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Yeah, I I think they should they should come away from that feeling pretty pleased with themselves putting on that performance and really not making it easy for Stormers who maybe they went into it thinking this was gonna be a maybe they looked at the team sheet and thought, well, this isn't gonna be too hard. Uh we can have a bit of a bit of a run round here. Certainly didn't go that way. That wasn't how it played out in the end. And uh just again, something that we've really not used to doing, but we've done a lot this season. Full credit to Leicester Tigers and seemingly Jeff Parling doing an excellent job up there.

Closing Notes And CTA

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

I mean, you you can't really argue with it. I mean, Jeff Parling is absolutely giving his mettle at at Welford Road. Um I, you know, neither of us particularly like praising Tigers, but we we have to on this occasion, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Yes, it's it's annoying when they do this because you have got you've got no choice but to praise them, uh sadly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Yeah, I mean, you know, they've just been utterly shit and we could have enjoyed them out. They did still lose, but you know, they did still lose, but you know, I think I think a good sign of how well they performed in this one was how spiky Sasha Famo and Zulu got in this game. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

And I think that's a testament of how much pressure he was put on them.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Yeah, I think got under his skin. Um, and you know, they they earned uh they earned the opportunity to do that because they were they really were combative from the you know, in many ways quite a classic Tigers performance in the sense of they were combative and dogged from the off, and you know, the likes of um Harry Wells in the in the row, wasn't he? You know, just leading from the front in that in that sense, um, as you'd expect from him. But you know, they were they were just physical and combative from the off, and just you know, put stormers off their stride, who you know still scored some good tries. They scored, they went up very early, you know. They got uh Roos scored um after 12 minutes, and they got a lineup ball from Venter scored after 15. So you know at that point you're thinking, well, this is it was a good sort of first 10 minutes from Tigers, but this is this is going to the off, and then just sort of turn it around from there. Pearson's try off the back of um the lineup. I think it's I think it's Sasha makes the mistake with the kick and gives gives Lester's really good line-up ball. Um, but they spin it really well, it's a lovely line, goes right under the posts. And then Will Wand again another really good line off a line out move. Um, again, another bad kick, another bad Darren kick gives Leicester line out ball in the in the stormers half, and he just really good line, he just absolutely rounds. I think Simolani, the the 15, yeah, just rounds him. Um, but you know, some of the performances, similar to Pearson, was so good under the high ball. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

He honestly looks like some player.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

I mean, maybe shouldn't have been totally surprised because he was very good against Lara Show earlier in the in the campaign, but um, you know, he he looks a superb prospect at fullback. Um more of a mixed bag in this game, missing one.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:53

Yeah, interesting one, and then slotting the ones from the edges.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Yeah, um, and actually, I think missing that one in front of the posts from a momentum perspective was a real bad, bad mistake. Um well, you know, Blamea does score a lineup ball straight off the off the the um the half, but you've got to keep the scoreboard ticking, you've got to have real scoreboard pressure in those moments, and I think not slotting that to go up at half time psychologically was maybe a bit of a bit of a death nail for tigers in the end, although they probably would have struggled regardless. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and then uh not helped by an enormous downpour, sort of three-quarters of the case and nowhere, suddenly just like ridiculous monsoon, all the fans running to the back of the stands.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Yeah, I don't think anyone saw that coming. Um adds just absolutely heavens open, yeah. You know, adds adds a adds a bit of uh variety to the to the spectacle. Uh but yeah, I I think yeah, as I said, full credit for Leicester. Uh they may have lost, but they've they've certainly uh I think come out of that with a lot of real big positives. Now the next two games, I have a feeling for two different reasons you don't want to talk too long about one of them being sales get just absolute demolition by Toulouse.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

Yeah, I mean it's it's a shame from Sale because actually um there were points where Sale actually looked alright in this game. Yeah, um their try was lovely. Yeah, it was um curse, just you know, golfing class, and actually I'm pretty disappointed in them for the performance overall, not because they were objectively bad across the park on this one, it felt like they went down sort of quite defeatist, you know, not picking the likes of Ernst and Rain.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

They they've done exactly what we've criticised other teams for of sending a real ragtag group of academ mixture of academy and squad fillers. Obviously, there's some actually like top like I'm not saying everyone's a squad filler because you know Doug Dale.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

No, I mean you know there were there are some first team players in there, but I don't know, it it looked like a strange selection and it played out sort of probably having expected one.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:05

So but normally they do that and you you have like a strong bench to try and stop that from like running away from you. Like it was it was just the bench was even more based on like Academy players, like Patrice Bell, Patrick Hogg, 18-year-old, like Ruben Logan getting his first game for the CEO team.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

It's it it wasn't no it's disappointing, it was disappointing, and you know, don't be wrong, to lose in the mood they were in, they just struggled anyway. But yes, but you know, it's it felt very un-Alexanderson to say defeated.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Um I'm annoyed I didn't pick more to lose players in my fantasy team. Put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:42

Yeah, me too. Me too. Um Ramos getting 11 out of 11 though on kicks, it's pretty phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

His place kicking is ridiculous because most of them are from the edge as well. Uh he's some kicker. Uh the only positive I can think from myself that that that Obi N A looks like a handy winger.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wasn't a player that I was on my radar at all going into this season, um, but looks looks genuinely a very good player. So yeah, that's a that's a positive for them. Um and you know, I thought the Marius Lowe, uh Rikiti Marsi White centre partnership had yeah, had had its moments had certain something to it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

But maybe less said about that game, the better. And and the and the next game, Rory, I I'm not gonna force you to talk for a long period of time about another defeat for Gloucester, but obviously I I I thought Gloucester did not look as bad as just the statement of saying another defeat. I thought it was gutsy, a gutsy performance against a very tough opponent.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

Yeah, I mean the reality was we were outclassed and overpowered. Um but yeah, look, as you say, I think there was there were things to take away from that game that are positive. Uh I thought our line out way much improved. Yeah. Um I thought our scrum was good. Uh I thought some of our ball play looked good, if maybe not overly threatening against that too long defence. Um but you know, I thought some of the nuts and bolts of our game looked much improved from where they have been. Um, I think Barton as the 10-15 axis has got to be the way forward at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

I uh I can't help but agree. And I think I'll be it'll be interesting to see when Joseph's back, because I'd be interested to see how those two go with Atkinson and Joseph outside them. And then Ben Loader on the wing.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:38

Like that it's there's talent in that squad, right? It's just it's just absolutely racked with problems. Um, we're down to two second rows at the moment, Danny Eyet and Alamano. Yes. Danny Eyet would wouldn't be a name familiar with a lot of non Gloucester fans, I would imagine, at this point. You know, I mean Joey Rob, really good prospects, six foot nine, you know, you like the look of him, but he's nineteen, twenty, something like that. You know he And he's not filled out yet. So it's just some nice moments. You know, you put put put a couple of nice hits in, but you know, you just you're asking for a Freddie Thomas apparently wrecked his hamstring, so I don't know what's gonna happen there. He has been selective, so it can't be that bad. So you'd hope not, but uh not gonna be available this week against Bath. So we'll see how that goes. You know, maybe that's for the best. Yeah, not expecting a good uh I'm not expecting a good Friday evening this week for for old Raw. Um but you know there was some nice play. I thought Seb Atkinson, you know, I say Seb Atkinson I thought was is looking back to you know he really took it to Toulon. At times a bit of a one-man army.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

I I think that's the problem. I think he's trying to shoulder it all himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:43

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, understandably, because you know, outside he's got Will Butler who's you know commendable um effort, but you know, we signed him as a squad filler from Worcester. Um Cockgrees a young lad. Hathaway's just coming back from injury, actually, some nice moments, but you know, come back from injury. So just there's just not the quality around him, really. Um, and up front, we're just we're just underpowered. But yeah, it's it's tough at the moment, but there was some green shoots again this week, a bit last week. And you know, I'm clutching at straws, but at the moment you've got to use a Gloucester fan. Yeah, you hold on to those straws, Rory, because you need them.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

Um but I I agree. I I think performance-wise, it's much better than what we've seen perhaps in the last kind of month or so from Gloucester. So I should say, green shoots. Let's let's see. Maybe there's a trajectory that's just about to start. Let's be let's be positive. We're a positive pod. We've said it before. We're a positive pod. Uh so that those are the Prem teams done at what I'd like to think is a generous canter through some lovely detail and some lovely analysis by us, I must say so myself. Uh, that is the end of the Champions Cup pools. That's the pools finalised, and there is a knockout stage this tournament where we now have that kind of established, and it's exposed yet again a number of problems with the format where the the knockout stage draw just doesn't feel quite right. There's a number of teams in the same league drawed against each other. Uh most of the sides of the pools are occupied by the same teams they've played in the pools already. Um one side feels incredibly harder than the other. Uh some teams seem to have an incredibly comfortable route to a semi-final should they wish to you know turn up and contribute. Uh have you had a chance to analyse and perhaps provide critique, Rory?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:40

Well, uh, I don't think there's going to be any surprises in the quarterfinals, which is um sorry, not the quarterfinals, the round 16, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:48

Yeah, the point the pointless uh stage of the tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Yeah, I I mean if you were really generous to say could Bristol spring a surprise on Toulouse, unlikely, but you know, it's not out beyond the realms possibility. Could Saracens spring a surprise on Bath again? Unlikely, but not beyond the realms. Um outside of that, I don't see the Bulls doing anything at Glasgow. Stormers maybe at Toulon, maybe could spring a surprise there, but maybe um Edinburgh gonna go and win in Leinster, unlikely. Sale could beat Quinns away, I suppose. That's that's a possibility.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:24

Yeah, but oh the it's so exciting the prospect of a Sale versus Quins knockout game in the Champions Cup. Yeah, I mean to are going so well at the preb.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:35

Yeah, and the winner of that is probably gonna go and play Leinster away. Exactly. Let's be frank, I think the quarterfinals could throw up some much more interesting games, but the round of 16 is there's not much to say about it, really. But I I'm I'm expecting the quarterfinals to look like Bordeaux v. Toulouse. That's exciting. That's an exciting quarterfinal, arguably a stage too early for a team of the for uh a clash of that magnitude, but to be fair, Toulouse have lost two in the tournament, so maybe that's fair. I'm expecting Bath against Saints.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

That'll be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

That will be interesting, probably at the wreck. Um, we'll be at the wreck, assuming that happens, but um that will be an interesting one. Uh I'm expecting Glasgow at home against Toulon. Um Toulon's last trip to Scotland, not a happy one. And Leinster against Quinn's, which we've already seen in the pool stage is probably more of a foregone conclusion, but you know Quinn's. Quinn Quinn's have just proved just proved that they can spring spring a surprise away. They they've got to be sick of playing Leinster though, surely. Yeah, you'd think so. Yeah, yeah. I think I think if Leinster put another 50 on them, they'll definitely be sick of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:48

But I think they've got to say Northampton seem to be unable to go through a champions cup run without playing cast at least once. Because we've got them again. Uh yeah. It's a it's a there's some teams you just cannot avoid, and unfortunately for Quinn's fans, it seems to be Leinster for them. Uh yes, again. I'm not excited about the round of 16, but the quarters do throw up some interesting games.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:08

Uh quarters throw up some interesting games and the semi-finals, you know, as you sped. I I would expect the semi-finals to be, and I'm I'm sorry, David, I I I do expect the semi-finals will probably be Bordeaux Bath, probably, but that's not a foregone conclusion.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:24

Uh recent form suggests otherwise, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:28

Don't forget. It does. Well, you're sure you're not falling into recency bias. Um, and then I would expect on the other half it to be Glasgow against Leinster, but at Glasgow. So again, that's not a foregone conclusion at all. That one.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:41

No, and I I don't think Leinster have been that impressive this tournament.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Uh no, and I don't think they've got a particularly good record against Glasgow in recent years, actually. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:51

So who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

Maybe you could end up with Glasgow in the final, which would be phenomenal for Scottish rugby.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:57

It would be, but am I excited by a Bordeaux slash Toulouse? Let's face it, it's probably gonna be one of those two against Glasgow final. I'm not sure. It feels a bit foregoring.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

Finals can throw up funny things, they can and Glasgow have proved they are no monks. Very true, very true, Ray. I'll try and be positive.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:14

But we'll see, we'll see how it pans out. We're a positive pod. We're a positive pod, yes, I must remember. Now, I'm fully expecting that as we post this podcast, people would have expecting us to talk about Six Nations squads and things like that, but just by the nature of things, we're recording this before those are announced. We've started to see the Welsh one, the Irish one, the Scottish one, they're all starting to trickle out, including on the 20s. We'll do a review of those next week. I suspect we'll have them all by this time next week, I hope. Um if not, we'll do a Six Nations special at some point. Um but we're all on that is half glossed again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's because we've got we've got one round of the Prem for some reason uh that we'll talk about next week, and then we'll be all eyes turning to the international competition that we very much enjoy. If you haven't joined the Six Nations Fantasy League thing, make sure you do. I did a thing on the story, but I'll do another post about that before we get to it uh once the squads are out. Uh, but I think for now, Rory, we'll bring the pod to a close and as always, Rory's final thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

TNT to broadcast the next Lions game and see my latest spectacular score.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:16

There you have it, folks. The campaign has started, well underway. But this has been Rux Balls and Oval Balls talking about all the fun things in rugby. Enjoyed having you. Make sure you like, follow, subscribe, and we'll see you again next week. Toro.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:33

Ta da.