S2 Ep 23 - England In Reverse, France In A Different Universe

A round of Six Nations rugby that felt like a truth serum: Italy no longer “plucky,” England stuck in the wrong gear, and France blending steel with swagger. We open in Dublin, where Italy’s identity is no longer a theory but a threat. Their scrum rattled Ireland, their defence held shape under pressure, and their attack showed an all-court game that creates, not just reacts. Ireland got home, but only after a pivotal halfback switch injected clarity and width—raising tough questions about selection, forward interplay, and how far a pack can go without those old, slick skill links.

Then to Murrayfield, where Scotland’s edge play and pressure dismantled England’s plan A. Kicks without chasers, misreads on the outside, and a drop goal that changed nothing—this was a case study in why bench balance matters. We dig into selection philosophy, why a running 10 changes pictures when the kick battle slips, and how England reconnect their emotional control with tactical flexibility, especially away from home. It’s not panic stations, but it is a wake-up call about levers, not labels.

Finally, Cardiff became a stage for France’s new normal: Jalibert conducting, Dupont catalysing, a back row everywhere all at once, and a pack that wins collisions without losing its head. Wales stood up better physically and found flashes through Wainwright and Rees-Zammit, but the gap in timing, tempo, and decision-making was clear. We spotlight Team of the Week choices—Faschetti and Ferrari powering Italy’s surge, Marchand’s set-piece calm, Olivon and Jelonch bossing contact, and bright sparks in the back three like Italy’s Pani—before locking in predictions for Round 3.

If you’re here for sharp analysis, selection debates, and honest takes on momentum swings, you’ll feel right at home. Hit follow, share with a rugby friend, and tell us your XV and Round 3 winners—who did we overrate, and who are we still sleeping on?

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Transcript

A Somber Open And Life Updates

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Rux Balls and Oval Balls. That's right, it's the fans favourite rugby podcast brought to you once again by the fans favourite rugby podcast hosts. That's right, it's me, Dave, joined by Rory as ever. Rory, say hello to the listener once again.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hello, hello, listener. Hello. A more somber feel, I think, this week. David, how are you?

Fatherhood, Sleep, And Sparse Socials

Lions Match Recap And Try Storytime

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Yes, uh, it's going to be hard to maintain the chipper and upbeat uh mood that was on display last week uh for obvious reasons that we will go into in this podcast. Um yeah, I'm not too bad, Rory, not too bad at all. Very much still enjoying the joys of fatherhood and the joys of a lack of sleep and the joys of um a lack of sleep and you know the joys of um lack of sleep. Uh but other than that, I'm doing fine. Um actually though, to be fair. No no, it's not affecting my podcasting. I I probably it's probably a good place to say if if you are a fan of the socials, I do apologize if things are a little bit sparse at the moment. As you may have guessed, little bit busy, time is a little bit short at the moment, but it'll it'll come back once I get into the swing of things of life, you know, and start getting some sleep. But I'm being unfair to the little one. He's actually being very good. I am getting a good amount of sleep considering he is two weeks old. Uh, so fair play to the lad. Uh, how are you, Rory? Uh, I saw that you uh laced the boots on the weekend. I'm I'm I'm excited for the match report.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Yes, yes, the the Lions came up against uh Romfling Gidea Park. Um interesting week for us. We had uh again a bit of a mixed team, decimated by Valentine's Day. I don't know what's happened to young men playing rugby, but so many of them are prioritizing taking their partners out for the day and and giving them uh attention rather than coming and playing for the Lions.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Wouldn't happen wouldn't happen back in my day, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Um personally, I did what was I did what was right and traditional. Uh I left my partner alone in my flat to read her book, whilst uh I went to play rugby uh on the promise that I'd buy her a Chinese that night.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

And how was the Chinese?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Excellent, loved it. Big fan of the uh the kung po king prom.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, we're we're looking for sponsors, so kung po, if you're interested.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yes, if kung po would like to sponsor the podcast, we're we're more in favour of it. And uh in other news, the lions with a big dump. Even better. What a Valentine's gift for your partner, I'm sure. And guess what, David? I'm on a too-match scoring streak. Stop the presses, tell me more. Please tell me there's a VO video somewhere. Uh not on this occasion, I'm afraid. But I'll I'll paint a picture of my words.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Okay, that's that's as good as we're gonna get.

Selection Nightmares And Scrum Reality

SPEAKER_01 2:50

First major attack, uh, putting pressure on in uh in the Romford uh 22, lovely bit of backs and forwards interplay. Ball comes to me, and I've got two options, David. Do I trust my hands, swing it out to the wing for an easy walk in, or do I straighten up, put out the big right paw, and straight arm the opposing loose head over the triline with me and finish with a plomb.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Well, I can tell you what I would have liked to have done, uh, which is to don't go anywhere near passing the ball, because we all know that's not your strength, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

So I'm hoping backhanded whatever you're doing, David. I'm I'm as gonna pass her as any prop in uh the merit table, I think you'll find. Okay. Uh but I did choose option B and I did uh straighten it up and I did uh steam roll on my way over the line to uh set us more in uh let's get the scoreboards tumbling and uh set us on our way to a 49-10 victory.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

It's good to know Big Roar's paw is still effective as ever, as it once was back in the day on the uh the fields of Wivenhoe. Uh oh that's that's beautiful. I I'm still hoping my campaign for the Westcliff Lions to have each of their games videoed is going to start bearing some fruit. Uh I I will remain patient. Uh I know Westcliff are listening, so um balls in your court. Uh the people want it. That's all I'm gonna say. Uh you're not wrong. You're not wrong. So, well, that's beautiful. Uh and other other than a glorious W for the Lions, how are you feeling? How's the body? Any carrying any injuries?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Uh well I was playing tight head, and there were quite a few scrums, and you know, fair play. Although I did go through the Lucer for the try, his scrummaging was pretty solid. Um so I I must say I'm a bit on the stiff side still, but um, you know, we move. That's good. Uh that's good. All things considered, I'm in not too bad a shape. Yeah, other than you know, the 33 years of general physical abuse.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Oh, but yeah, yeah, yeah. We we all the baseline to that level is is not a normal, healthy body. I understand that.

Fitness, Man Versus Fat, And Comebacks

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Sorry, let me give it a broader picture. Physically, I'm absolutely buggered, but given where I was sort of before the game to now, I'm I'm you know, broadly okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Fantastic. Oh, that reminds me, Rory. I'm heading back to Man versus Fat next week. You're getting back out on the paddock, back out on the paddock, the boots are being laced, and I'm gonna see if this could be my uh my final redemption arc to see if this can get me back into some sort of fitness to try and find a team locally to do a pre-season with and see if I can go back to get one season in maybe full contact. Let's see. We'll see how.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Is this a suggestion that recently Fat has been beating Man in the uh the Jones household?

Setting The Agenda: Six Nations Only

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I I think it's safe to say that Fat has been making a slow and cruel advance uh across the battlefield, and it's about time man fights back. Um so this is this is the first step of the pushback, and hopefully, hopefully, maybe a bit more rugby in the song that is your diet. Yeah, yeah. But we're not here to talk about us, Rory. I know we'd start every single podcast talking about us, but we know the listeners don't really care. I'm sure most of them are most of them fast forwarded the first five minutes, and I don't blame them. We are here to uh talk solemnly, honestly, because we're an honest pod about the six nations this week.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Uh we've got some honest things to say this week, aren't we?

Ireland Vs Italy: Not Plucky Anymore

SPEAKER_02 6:14

We have some honest things to say this week. Uh and that's this week we're just gonna be talking six nations. None of the other fancy stuff we talked about in the past, like we could talk about the under 20 Six Nations, which you know England are doing really well, yee! Uh, but unfortunately, I don't want to juxtaposose juxtapose this week with that because not quite so happy in the senior men's. Could talk about the next gen Academy League that's come to the end of its league stage this week and it's building towards the finals, but I feel like Six Nations is where we should focus. So that's what we're gonna do. And we'll start off, we'll do it as we always do, chronological order. And we start off over in Ireland up against the plucky Italians. What did you make of the curtain raiser of round two of this week's Six Nations?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Well, I think I think we can dispense with the plucky tag, actually. Um I think I I off the basis of the first two weeks of this tournament, I am I'm now more convinced than I ever have been that Italy are are not the plucky upstarts anymore. They are fully at the table. They they feel to me like a team that is ready to step in the same kind of mantle that Argentina have held. Uh maybe Argentina held between say 2007 that particularly good World Cup and maybe till just after the Hagawaras um ceased when they were sort of you could see the development you know in in a real um in real time. Yeah. I feel like Italy are in are in that stage at the moment. They seem to have the pipeline of players, they seem to be really well coached, they seem to be physically matching up, and they now seem to have a level of depth to compete with the historic tier one nations. Maybe not the absolute top tier, you know, your South Africa's, although they gave them a pretty tough game in the autumn. Yeah, but I think in that kind of middle tier of tier one nations, I think Italy are very firmly in in place. Um to the point where I would say they should be disappointed they didn't come away with a win here.

Italy’s Identity And Depth Debate

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah, I I I I genuinely thought uh right right up until the dying moments that they they would they could have done it. Um it was it was definitely within reach, and then you know James Lowe comes along and kind of kind of steals that moment towards the end and kind of broke a few Italian hearts. But I I completely agree. And I think I think one of the other things I'll add into that list you put there about Italian rugby is I think they've also now got kind of an Italian identity, like an Italian team, they play in a certain way that I think isn't just them defending and hoping to get opportunities. They they actually seem to have their own style of play that works for them, that creates opportunities, that poses problems for teams, and it isn't just a case of uh expecting to win now when you are the opponent, you really have to figure them out. And I think that is as a result of that pipeline of talent, that excellent coaching, the facilities being there, the the the money being there, like I think the investment, albeit it's been quite a long investment in comparison to say Argentina, I think we're bearing fruit to that investment now. Uh yes, it's been what twenty-six years since the Six Nations started or something like that. Uh but they really are not the whipping boys of this competition and by any mean feat. And yes, you're quite right, they're not plucky. If anything, they're unlucky in this game.

Scrum Shock, Halfback Switch, And Crowley

SPEAKER_01 9:44

But yeah, well, I think I think that that time frame is important. It's it's important to understand how long these things can take to implement, you know. See here as a Welsh fan hoping for immediate changes to to their current fortunes, you know, these things do take time to bear fruit. For me, this game pinged on uh Menancello throwing the forward pass to Lewis Liner in the second half. Yeah. If Lewis Liner goes in at that point, um I genuinely think Italy go on to win this. That felt like the That was such a lovely pass. I felt like there were mentions because Balakun scores about five minutes later. Yeah, that pass was lovely as well. They should have just allowed it. Yeah, it was you know, it looked nice, but it you know, it it went forward. Let's not let's not beat around the bush on it. I would say across the board, I think you made a good point with it's the Italian style of play. I think I think what impressed me is they've got the ability to play an all-court game and play in lots of different styles. So they you know they started off, I would say up until the first their first score, I think they had something like 25% possession. Now, Ireland had got were 5-0 up, but it was 5-3 after 20 odd minutes, having had 25% possession. They defended extremely well. I mean, it's a well-taken Ireland try, but they really had to work for that. And then Italy were able to go back and punch back and get the get the penalty. I I would say that their it their interplay between forwards and backs is up there as well as as most nations of that kind of that kind of caliber. You know, they've got they've got some really good ball players in the pack, you know, Canoni, Lamaro, Zuliani, Naschetti and Nicotera would be the ones that spring to mind. Um the only thing I think they're maybe lacking is probably what what's cost them in injuries this tournament.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

That little bit of extra stardust that someone like a capuazzo gives you, maybe what a Pajrello might have given you at nine.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

You know, although I think Fusco had a very good game, but I you know, yeah, yeah, he's just fair, he's had he's had he's had two good games cut like covering that position. Yeah. Uh but it does make you think with like how close they were in this game, had they had those players available to them, they would be top of the table now, I think, because I think they would have comfortably put Ireland away if they had that that cutting edge, uh that Stardust as you say, Capuotto, if Brex was available this week, if Todaro was a possibility. Um it's it would have been an interesting prospect to have seen a full, fully fit Italy up against let's face it, I know Ireland won, but I'm still unconvinced by them. I mean it's it's unseen, and it's it's really hard to explain to people uh the position that puts you in as a prop. If that happens to you, it is so demoralizing you can't you you can't shake it off, you can't forget about it because that only only happens when you are dominated.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah, it that can take you weeks to survive. I mean, I it's happened to me a handful of times um where I've come up just come up against when you've just been outclassed as a whole scrum, you know, usually where there's a big weight disparity, but nothing makes you feel worse than just that level of physical domination. Yeah, and for someone as storied as Furlon to get launched like that is I mean, you know, you think of the props that he's dominated in the past, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

In in not too recent time, he was up in conversation about being one of the best scrummaging props in the world, and that's like in the last two, three years. Yeah, you don't I'm not saying he's dropped off that much in those two, three years, but I think it says a lot about the Italian scrum, and I think it says a lot about where Ireland are at the moment as as a unit.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Well, uh let's let's be realistic, the I the Ireland scrum is really strong. I mean, it it only stabilised when a dogboat came on, um, and to put some put some weight behind Furlon. Um, because up until that point they were going backwards at a rate of knots.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, that's true, but uh so he replaced was it McCarthy?

Coaching Philosophies And Forward Skills

SPEAKER_01 13:57

No, he came on for Ryan. Right McCarthy came off quite a bit earlier for Byrne, and actually I think that was a mistake because McCarthy does at least lend you know McCarthy lends more weight than Byrne does.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Yeah, but yeah, so I just I just feel like I agree a dogbow came on and it did stabilize it, but the locks they had on to start with weren't small, lightweight locks. So I I basically I just don't want there to be any excuses for the Irish props to say, oh, it's because we didn't have the weight behind us, because they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

No, I don't want I don't I don't think it's you know I think Lockman and Clarkson really, really struggled. Yeah, really struggled, and I think Furlong really struggled when he came on as well. Um by the time O'Toole came on quite late on, you know, it it it calmed down a little, but realistically, I think all the Irish props struggled. Um I think the Irish team really struggled until they changed the halfbacks, if I'm honest. Probably the you know I I think we should say the the pylon that's happening on Prendergast we don't support. It's you know it it's it's over the top, yeah. Yeah, but at the same time, I think there has to be an acceptance now by Andy Farrell that Crowley is is gotta be the first pick at this point, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, yeah. I I don't support just a total kind of not victimizing, but completely singling out an individual and really going in like full bore at an individual, especially someone who's like 20, 21 years old, and he's obviously still very young, a lot ahead of him. But just look at the performances of Crowley coming off the bench and how different Island look.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yeah, that alone. The Balakoon try, the Ballicoon try happened a couple of minutes after Crowley comes on, yeah. And he's his fingerprints all over I I think him and Gibson Park. I mean, it was it felt a strange choice to change Gibson Park for Casey in the starting line. Not that I think Gibson Park had a particularly good game last week, because it didn't. No, but it didn't feel like that was the linchpin that was the problem in the back line. It sort of felt like stubbornness on Farrell's part to not change Prendergast at that point, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

If anything, I think it proved the other point because the second Gibson Park came on, that's when the game changed a little bit, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, um, I think Gibson Park and Crowley is the obvious choice now, guys. I if they don't pick Gibson Park and Crowley against England, they're really gonna struggle. Um but you know, at the same time, Prendergast has got a huge ceiling. I just think at the moment he's I think he's probably been thrown in too early.

Italy’s Missed Chances And Real Progress

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, yeah. I think his problem is teams have identified his weakness, which is in defence, and they are their game plan is designed to expose that. And you can't you can only hide players so much and kind of cover for them. Good teams will always find ways to manipulate defences and take advantage of the things they've planned for in advance, and I think that's what we're seeing is that Prendergast at the moment isn't the best in kind of defence, like he he isn't the strongest tackler, and teams are are targeting that, and he like that's no fault. Well, it is a fault of his own the fact that it is him that's making the errors, but Ireland aren't protecting him that well, and they keep selecting him and putting him at the coal face of this problem. He needs to go away and figure out how he improves that area of his game, and there's a player like in Crowley sat on the wings who's ready and raring to go, who is yeah who who can cover that. So I I I do think most of it sits with Farrell, I think, to for keeping to put Prendergast in that fire because it it's slightly avoidable, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Well, I think it's holding the team back, and I think it's probably putting Prendergast under too much pressure at the moment because he's he's become the focal point for an underperforming side.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

And if remember he's also under the same challenge at club level with kind of him being displaced by Harry Byrne, he he is probably absolutely desperate to try and show he's still kind of the number one man. And I more often than not, when you're when you're playing in desperation, that's not when you play your best rugby.

Scotland Vs England: Edge Defense Exposed

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, I uh feels like a feels he looked like a player who needs to be taken out the firing line to me. Yeah, um, yeah, I I don't think there were loads of good performances in the old time. I mean the I thought the Balakun tribe was excellent, actually. It was the easily the best period of play Ireland put together. Um I thought Stuart Lowe, uh Stuart Lowe, God. Jordan Lowe was excellent, actually. He really is. I thought Jordan Lowe was excellent, actually. He really is his critics. James Lowe.

unknown 18:17

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

You're your your I thought you'd got better at your first names, but uh turn out I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Do you know what? Jordan Lowe is someone I've played with at Westcliff as was and he also played on the wing. Oh James Lowe was uh excellent, he really answered his critics in this uh in this game, yeah. Um and Osborne, the whole Ireland back three, actually, probably was a lot of the reason why Ireland stayed in this match because they were able to field Italy's kicking game.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Um, they also I think it was Osborne who put Panny into touch when he was going into the corner. Yes. Um it felt it felt like a lot of it was a bit of a rearguard action on Ireland's part. Um but um those those three were a lot the reason why they came through it. Up front, there's not a lot of positives in that pack. Sheehan once again, pretty absent. Yeah, he's he's unusually absent to the point that he's massively dragged down uh fantasy points the last couple of weeks. Been poor. Yes, tell me about it. Um McCarthy had some nice moments, but the back row I mean Conan obviously scores a try, but you know he squeezes it over from from the you know half a yard out. I didn't see loads of him outside of that.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

No Doris is pretty pretty busy, but yeah, I think Doris Doris is probably the one that stood out for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Um but I mean outside of McCarthy and Doris, I can't I couldn't give you anyone in the pack who really stood out for me.

England’s Tactics, Bench, And Selection

SPEAKER_02 19:46

No, I I I think that's the thing that there isn't anyone. Um and I think that I think that's part and parcel uh Ireland's problem there. Because I I think whatever's going on, the the Irish loose forwards, or just forwards in general, seem to be really struggling to be impactful in games at the moment. And I don't I don't I don't know what it is. Uh whether they're just whether they've just been figured out, whether they're just not packing that punch that they used to, that that relentless pick and carry game. Maybe a lot of other teams do it now, so teams are kind of savvy to it and are able to defend it. Have you read the theory about Ninabar?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

I haven't the X-Pros have been so you know Jacques Ninabar obviously took over at Leinster after Stuart Lancaster, yeah, and brought in a bit more of this South African style play, which is more defence focused and physicality focused. The theory's been positive by ex Island Pros. So I think I think it was Rob Carney was one I heard talking about it. Um I think Donica O'Callaghan was or is this on their their podcast? Yeah, but there's been a couple of places where I've seen it pop up. But they bel their theory is that Nina Bayer has taken the focus away from Irish forwards ball playing skills, which was brought in by uh oh What's his chops the Kiwi who was can coach them for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Joe Schmidt.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Schmidt, yeah. Schmidt, and then they also and Stuart Lancaster at Leinster. Right, yeah, yeah. They got they were very positive about their impact on the ability of the forwards to um to play with the ball for those two. And the theory is that under Ninabar that they've that's been allowed to sort of fall by the wayside, but it's been deprioritised.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

And I think it's lazy to blame one person for that. You know, I think a lot of this is this stuff is under the control of players. You should players have control over how much focus they put on their skill level, but I do think there's a point to the quality of Ireland's interplay between forwards and backs seems to have deteriorated in the last couple of years. Yeah, so so I think you can see that there is that I think there is a good argument to suggest that one of the reasons this island team is struggling at the moment is they're not seeing that kind of fluidity. An attack that they've had um probably pre-the Last World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

It's an interesting one because that that that that is kind of what I was alluding to there about their the fours just not just not having that impact on the games like they used to, and maybe that is it's an interesting theory. It's an interesting theory, but like I said, I don't want to put it all on one coach changing things, but it does feel like something like that is going on. Um yeah, it's an interesting one. I I do I I think next week will be interesting uh coming up against England. Uh it's usually quite an interesting matchup pack to pack, and I think that might give us some more clues as to what is going on, perhaps. Yeah.

The Drop Goal Rant And Ford vs Smith

SPEAKER_01 22:45

We should talk about that in our predictions, but in this in this game in particular, you know, I thought Italy can legitimately come away disappointed uh in this game, and actually because they probably were the better side for a lot of it. Um I'd agree. They should be disappointed not to have won that game. Probably one bad defensive read for Osborne's try, a bit of poor discipline that led to Conan's try. Um and Balicon's try, you could probably give that a watch as just a very, very good try that actually they defended quite well for quite a long time. Yeah, and eventually just eventually fell down to a good finish. But they could they've probably left two at least two tries out there, maybe three, you could argue they lost the line out in the in the 22 as well. Yeah, um, Pani obviously getting knocked into touch the forward pass to um to Liner, and with the pressure they put on, particularly at the scrum time, yeah. You know, they would they can legitimately feel like they left some they left plenty of points out there, um, which in a lot of ways is is a good sign of their development. It'll be scant consolation at the moment, and yeah, they will they will want to respond this week, although they've got France, I believe, haven't they? Yeah, um but it's for an Italian side to go to Dublin and can legitimately come over disappointed, I think it's extremely promising for them in the long term, and hopefully in the shorter term, it will start to turn into regular results in those games.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, yeah. I I I think well what we said at the start of the tournament of Italy regularly winning two, three, even four games in a Six Nations competition, I don't think that's far off being a regular occurrence. Um it could happen this year. Uh who knows? Because well we'll we'll touch on England very shortly, but I I can certainly see Italy beating uh beating Wales and I could certainly see them causing some more trouble for some other teams. Uh but yeah, this game this game itself ended 2017 to Irel Ireland. 2013. 2013, my apologies, to Ireland. Uh which I thought I agree. I I think Italy will be kicking themselves. Uh they were the better team. Ireland took the tries they could, again, being clinical, but ultimately unconvincing, and that scrum will be a huge, huge worry. Uh but moving on, Rory, we move on to the second game of the competition in round two, and that was up in Murrayfield. Uh what an occasion. We always we've talked very, very positively about uh atmosphere of Murrayfield. Um, but I fear that may be the limit of the posity I can draw out of that event as an England fan. Before I go in fullbore. Rory, please provide a more balanced and coherent thoughts on this fixture before I release my torrent abuse to what is a very frustrating performance.

Pressure, Away Form, And Plan B

What Scotland Did Well And What England Didn’t

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Well, it it in tribute to um to the Scottish performance. I don't own any Scotland kit, um, but in the old Billy Connolly joke about New Zealand is that all the most miserable Scots got on a boat, sailed around the world until they bumped into something that looked exactly like Scotland. So I've worn my all blacks kit today. Uh this look the charge is going to be levelled at Scotland that they could only get up for it when England are in town, or are I playing England, and I think there is something to that, and that is a charge that they need to answer sooner rather than later. I thought they were very good in this game on a number of different levels. I thought their intensity um disrupted England at the breakdown, pressuring them in defence, forcing them into a poor kicking game. I think that all came from from or a lot of that came from Scotland's pressure on England. Um I I thought scrum aside, they dominated every facet of the match. They dominated the kick battle, um, they were phenomenal getting around England, exposing on the edges multiple times. Um, I think not to not to pick out a couple of saints early on, David, but I think defending on the edge, uh Alex Mitchell and Tommy Freeman in particular are two that have to take um a fair amount of responsibility for some of the defence on the edge there. Not necessarily entirely their own doing. Uh, I think Tom Roebuck as well was very guilty of poor defensive reads. Um, the Jamie Ritchie try is a good example of that, where Murrow Toge is happening to be the one trying to- No, it's not sorry. The first Hugh Jones try at the corner where Mara Toge is chasing him after Jamie after Tom Roebuck shoots at a defence to try and stop the pass. By some distance, I thought Tom Roebuck's poorest game in an England shirt. From a Scotland point of view, I mean to a man they were better than England. There's there's I don't think there's a single England player that outplayed their counterpart. Um but to name a few who are particularly good, Carl Stane uh was phenomenal on the right wing. Um, not just outplaying Arundel, a constant threat, just gained meters at will. Uh, I thought Huey Pilotto, as a centre partnership, um, not only outplayed their counterparts, but showed a lot of the gill and intensity that they can bring that on paper is what you think they should bring week in, week out for Scotland. Um to Piloto in particular is just physical in defence, just a big man. You sort I sometimes forget how big he is. Um, a couple of times just sort him sort of sauntering around the pitch when they were up, just enormous pair of shoulders on it. Uh probably Finn Russell's best game I've seen him play since maybe the Lions tour. Um the back row entirely on top. Uh Jamie Ritchie, combative, niggly, nuggety, anti-English, all those kind of things. Rory Darge, superb at the breakdown. Uh Dempsey, physical, you know, carrying the ball, getting over the game line, absolutely everything you want from number eight. Probably showed, although Ben Owl was by some distance England's best player, showed where England are missing Tom Willis in games like this. So, yeah, first and foremost, Scotland were superb in this game. From England's point of view, without being too negative about one loss in 13, uh, this showed some real flaws in this England side that haven't been exposed by other teams. Firstly, an inability to get to plan B when plan A isn't working. And plan A was obviously very focused around the kicking game where they were losing that battle left, right, and centre, and persisted with it because he didn't seem to have an answer to it. Um, linked to that, the poor selection policy. You have to I think we have to be honest, not having Marcus Smith on the bench, which this game's crying out for, swapping Marcus Smith for George Ford, um, to change the theme of the attack. You know, FinnSmith, a great player, but not the game changer you need in moments like this.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Um I I waited for my turn, Rory, but I will interject there. England only looked good when FinnSmith came on. That is the only time England showed any enterprise in the back.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

I'm I'm not having a go at Finn Smith, you know. I think you could make a better argument for FinnSmith having started this game on a performance basis. Yeah, I've just got to think changing perspective.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I've seen the debate, there's some suggesting that Finn Smith being selected ahead of Marcus Smith is the reason England lost, which I think is. No, no, no, no, that's madness. England already lost. I think we have said that.

France Vs Wales: Flair Meets Resolve

SPEAKER_01 30:12

It's just like absolute bonkers. No, England had basically already lost this game by the time Finn Smith came on. Irrelevant. The point, my point is only that to move away from a kicking game, which seemingly George Ford wasn't able to do, for whatever reason, George Ford didn't want to move away from the kicking game, having Marcus Smith on the bench to change the theme of the attack and having that running threat at 10 would have been more effective than Finn Smith as as bringing Finn Smith on for Arendt and unfortunately had to be in this case with the red card. So, again, not a criticism of Finn Smith in in the squad, it's a criticism of selection, the theme of the selection, whereby an inability to change the uh direction of travel in a game by not selecting game-changing players on the bench. Finn Smith's a fine player, but he's not a game-changing player in this instance. Similar, I think, to having Ben Spencer on the bench. I don't Ben Spencer on the bench, as brilliant a player as Ben Spencer is, if he's not your starting line, I don't think there's a massive value in having him on the bench. I disagree, but you can carry on. Um complete lack of impact in the in the forwards, Ben Earl aside, possibly, but even they're not getting loads of meets through the carry. Um exposing us. I think something that we talked about last year, but that we thought was solved with Tom Willis, absent of Tom Willis, this is the first time it's been really exposed. Um I think England need to probably give Lee Blackett a bit more freedom to put his footprint on the game plan. Um not to get away from the kicking battle because it's it's served them well, but to have it have it in their back pocket to move away from it when needed. Um so for but for me, yeah, tactically and selection-wise, England fell down to Scotland on this one, and they were flat from the off. So emotionally they weren't there. Uh but David, no, you your your turn to tirode.

Jalibert, Dupont, And A New Balance

SPEAKER_02 32:09

So so I I I think you've been far too kind to Scotland and far too kind to England. I don't think Scotland were that good at all. I think they were made to look good by an incredibly poor England who really offered very little in terms of imagination, creativity, attacking play. The only positive from England was the scrum, and uh literally the only positive. Uh I cannot think of any player. Um so I'm not gonna single out any player for being poor. I I I know you've pinpointed Freeman and Mitchell, but you know, I think they were maybe exposed when Arundell's already off the pitch, which was does make it difficult to defend an edge when you're defending the space of two men with one man. Uh there's not a single player, like Ben Earl, yeah, people are saying he was the best player pitch. Yeah, in an English, he probably was the best player, but he 80% of his carries were pretty ineffective and didn't really go far. And I don't I think I think back to that Scotland performance. I've listed the players there saying how superb they were. I didn't look back at that game in the same way. I don't think they were that good. I think that England were that bad, they offered so many easy opportunities for Scotland to look good. Finn Russell looked good because England tacklers were falling off of him left, right, and centre. Players like Guy Pepper slipping off of Finn Russell doesn't normally happen. And that you watch the carries, like Finn Russell's not doing anything dynamic, he's not doing anything impressive. For some reason, England have just forgotten how to tackle, and because that's happening, it's making Scotland look good because they're getting space that they wouldn't normally get. They're not creating anything, England are giving it to them. And I think that's the difference. I don't think Scotland that wasn't an eight out of ten performance from Scotland, that was a six out of ten performance from Scotland, it was a two or three out of ten performance from England across the board, and that's why it looked so good. The kicking game from George Ford was abysmal, and you're completely right, the the the inability to change that blood game plan is just bonkers, and the George Ford going for the drop goal when he went for that drop goal, which was the absolute pivotal moment in this match that lost England any chance of recovering it, was the most brain dead, stupidest decision I could I've seen in an England shirt for a very, very long time, because scoring that drop goal made absolutely zero difference to what England required to get back in that game because it would have taken them from being eleven points behind to being eight points behind, which is still two scores, regardless, and it was so signposted and so poorly executed, it's just absolutely bonkers. And I'm gonna go back to selection policy. Let's just remind ourselves that Finn Smith directed England through their best performing six stations, earned himself a lions spot, and that is the only reason he lost the 10-shirt. George Ford inherited it, luckily, because he wasn't good enough to be selected for the Lions, and he's been kept there by Borthwick. I think it's about time Borthwick reverts back to Finn Smith, who had for no reason lost the 10-shirt, and I agree, had Finn Smith started this game, England may have won this game because at least he does have an attacking game that's beyond his boot. Uh, he's also got a defensive game that's very good. So ultimately, I don't think Scotland were that good. I just think England were that bad.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Okay. Um so I think there's a few things I'd I'd like to just challenge you on there. I think the ability to make an international site, particularly one in the ascendancy as much as England, look bad, you have to credit the opposition for that.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

What did Scotland do to force the number of balls being dropped, the knock-ons? They didn't do anything. England were just poor. Like Scotland didn't do anything different to any other team that England would come up against. Their defence wasn't that suffocating.

France’s Pack And Ominous Consistency

SPEAKER_01 36:07

They were very they when they had the ball, they attacked with intent and pace, they attacked the breakdown, they got quick ball constantly, played wide, played to England's weaknesses, identified where England were weak in the defence, and attacked there effectively. They they stressed that England defence. I mean, there's nothing I I I think you can argue about whether Arendell deserved that first yellow card.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Oh no, no, he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I I don't think I don't think it was a I'm not even necessarily certain it was a penalty.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

No, I think it was a turnover for England, but I'm I'm not gonna call I'm not gonna say the ref's the reason why.

Team Of The Week Selections

SPEAKER_01 36:40

No, no, I'm not either. But but they're in that position because Mitchell misses the tackle on the edge, Scotland get down that edge and it in scram and they have to scramble back to to defend like that. You you know Scotland put the pressure on that leads to that situation. I think England, you know, I mean England knocked it on what three times in the 20s. I think Genja, Toge and Mitchell knocked it on in the 22. Um, Scotland also defended uh line out more on the on the try-line, uh, and they also tackled Freddie Stewart into touch five metres out. You I think you can make a very good argument that Scotland were the architects of their victory in those in those circumstances. Now, you can put as you can put a percentage on it on how much of it's untidiness by England and poor execution by England, and there's no doubt that it's a significant part of it. I just don't think you should discount the quality of Scotland's play to force that situation. I I I think Scotland were worth their victory, not because England were so bad and they were just they were average. I think Scotland were really good and made England look bad. Um I think England started badly, I think England were absolutely a massive part of their own downfall. I mean you can start it from before the first Scotland penalties, this comes after like three minutes. England win a line out, produce a massive mall that goes 10 metres up the pitch. Mitchell box kicks off of it, doesn't even attempt to play, box kicks badly. Uh, England don't retain the don't retake the call. Scotland attacked down the other end, forced a penalty and stuff and knock over the three points. You've then got Arundel Bind on the eight. Again, and I know you're gonna think I'm gonna pitch I'm picking on Mitchell here, but this is the first two significant problems came from Mitchell's bad box kick, Mitchell missing a tackle on on the edge against Stane, I think it was. Um then uh you know the the the Hugh Jones try, uh, where Russell pats it on, Robuck fires out the line and gives, you know, it's a tough bit of skill, but it's a skill that we know Russell can um and do. And he performs a great bit of skill, finds the edge and puts Hugh Jones in into the corner. I think England England with architects their own downfall, but Scotland capitalised on it so well, and I don't think you should discount how good Scotland were to get their victory in this one.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Like I said, uh yeah, it's a solid six out of ten performance. That's that's solid. That's not it's not a bad performance. I'm just saying England were that bad. Like if you think about the the difference in the score line was what, 11 points? Two of Scotland's tries were gifts. Genj being unable to field the ball and the and the drop of kick.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

I'm immediately going to lead to Genj's defence here.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

I'm not digging's the loose head the one covering that. Oh no, I'm not saying it's Genj's fault, I'm just saying that's a gift for Scotland.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Watch it, watch it back. I'll tell you who goes missing, Mitchell. He's covering that space, and he goes missing.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Yes, but it's in that yellow card, red card window. He's he's been asked to cover Arundel, that's why he's missing. He's being asked to play out of position, so you can't dig at him too much because he's covering wing. He's not a winger, he's a scrum half. Like his job isn't.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

To do the first game where Mitchell's edge defence has been a problem.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Well, it's his job is his his job, his skill set isn't to be the last defender in the line. He's having to cover it because Arendell is a good thing. Yeah, in this position he's in the defensive line. That's because he's being asked to, because he's having to cover for Arendelle. Yes, there's gonna be times where he's maybe missed a tackle or two, but you you point to me in the direction of a scrum after doesn't, because you get out muscled, you get physically mismatched, it happens. But let's not go on a manhunt for Mitchell because he's being asked to play out a position to cover for Aaron Wow.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Who I admit was poor in this game. I seem to have forgotten that he won't be won two tests in Argentina with George Ford, they picked New Zealand. I haven't said anything.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

All I've said he's just made a brain-dead position.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

I'm talking about the selection policy.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

I'm talking about the selection policy. Let's refer back to when Finn Smith lost his shirt for no reason, out of his control.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Like, why why is that something George Ford took his opportunity and has earned that show? We've been waxing lyric about George Ford and and now and now all of a sudden that's that's forgotten.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

I'm saying it's not working, so why doesn't Borthwick think to take Ford off and bring Smith on? It didn't work in this game. It's very obviously not working in this game. Very obviously not working in this game, but there's no thoughts to change things up. We have to stick with Ford at 10.

Week Three Predictions

SPEAKER_01 41:24

We had to in this one because Arendell got himself red carded. Swap, swap, swap for the big thing. Selection policy. Yeah, yeah. No, I I agree with the selection policy. My intention is they should have had Marcus Smith on the bench rather than Finn Smith. I don't think I don't think the answer was we shouldn't have picked George Ford in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

No, all I said was that George Ford's had a really bad game, so now's the time to start thinking about going back to the old selection policy. Because I think had we in hindsight selected Finn Smith, we may have won the game because the way he plays is different to George Ford. That's what I said.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Okay, but I didn't say George Ford. They were never going to drop George Ford for this one, were they? Because they've won the they've won the last one. I don't know. Hindsight's lovely.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Hindsight is lovely. I'm just saying I think if we had chosen Finn Smith, we may have had a better chance to win this game because Finn Smith does offer something different to the kicking game, which at this point in time is all we've seen from George Ford in an English shirt this tournament and in recent recent fixtures. So I wasn't digging out George Ford entirely. I was saying his decision to do that drop goal was brain dead, his kicking game was rubbish, but I'm I don't I'm not hearing you disagree with that.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

I don't disagree with that. I think I I think George Ford was really poor in this game. Yeah. I just think it's I don't think the right call is to then say we should have picked Finn Smith to start with.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

No, that's I'm saying if we had, we may it may have been a different result because he offers something different.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Okay, but if we picked a Joe Mo and Lawrence, it might have been a different result. If we picked Ben Spencer, it might have been a different result. Well, definitely wouldn't have been Ben Spencer, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

That's for Alex Mitchell was the only player in the back line with a number with a shirt number higher than eight that was showing any form of creativity or guile like anyone else. And I'm including Freeman, I'm including Dingwall. None of them showed anything. Well, not several, he missed a few, but a number of England players missed a few. The likes of the city.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Some of them being a few and several, he missed them.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

I'll find the number, how many missed for you, Rory? Because then we can talk facts. Uh and then it this may well prove that he's missed ten, and then I'll be like, fair enough. But if it's like he's missed three, and I bet every other England player missed more than every other, but most others would have lost missed more than that. Sam Underhill missed four, Fraser Dingwall missed three, Guy Pepper missed three, Freddie Stewart missed two, George Ford missed two, Alex Mitchell missed two tackles.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Okay, so he's about par for the England performance. That doesn't make him an outstanding player in the back line.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

No, but your statement that he's the reason that we are the he missed three tackles, apparently, that led to Two Scotland tries and one where Arundel got one of them's apparently not him at all. So he's only missed two tackles.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

He missed the tackle on the edge that led to Arundell's yellow card. Okay, but he's missed two tackles in the game. Okay, but he's also kicked poorly. So I'm not specifically digging out Mitchell. I think the whole team was poor. But the my point my point is ifs and buts on who they should have selected beforehand are ir irrelevant unless you're looking at how it could have changed in the game. That's why I'm talking about the bench selection, because you could have changed the game there. My contention is I don't think Finn Smith changes the direction of that game if he came on for George Ford. I think Marcus Smith could have changed the direction of the game because he brings something so different.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

I think that's where I think Finn Smith does change because I think Finn Smith offers a lot more than people give him credit for. I think he he does have more to his game than people seem to realise, and that is why he was England's number 10 before he got called up for the Lions.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

That's why he I don't dislike Finn Smith by any stretch. I just think someone like Marcus Smith, also the fact that Marcus Smith could have cut covered in the back three, as opposed to Finn Smith having to come on for a wing or his sent off, doesn't quite doesn't exactly make for a a great change of the back line at that moment. But I think I just think Marcus Smith brings something so much more different to George Ford. That's where that's where he could have changed that game.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Well, yeah, possibly, but possibly but Finn Smith was sat there on the bench ready and raring to go. And when he did come on, I thought he that's when England started to actually throw the ball around and actually get into the Scotland 22. It's because Finn Smith was trying things out, he was actually passing the ball, he wasn't kicking it at every opportunity and playing out of position. Uh, but you know, he gets rewarded by getting dropped from the 23 entirely anyway. So it shows where Borthwick sees uh the game plan going next week as well. I just I know England have been good and they've won 12 or 13 games on the trot, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to just forgive them for what was probably the worst performance I've seen in an of an England side for a long, long time. And I don't think I don't think we should be kind to them because of that. I think we should be objectively critical of what was a dreadful performance. And from where our city, I don't think I don't think Scotland were that good, so I don't want England, I don't want to give England the out of saying Scotland was so good. I think England were their own the worthy element.

Closing Notes And Listener Ask

SPEAKER_01 46:20

I don't think it's an out. Where I disagree is I think Scotland were good in that they forced England to be bad. I think England were already bad, and I think Scotland were able to capitalise on it and exacerbate it. I don't I'm not gonna minimise how good Scotland were in this game, but that does not by any stretch mean I think England were in any way good, yeah, exactly or minimise how bad they were. I thought England were dreadful, and yeah, I mean a lot of players who you do not expect to be poor were poor. You know, Pepper and Underhill were poor. I mean, there was one where Pepper knocked on a tact back ball that you know, the kind of scraps that England have been picking up consistently in this run of games, they were in every kicking battle, they were losing all the scraps, all the 50-50s. Yeah, um, you know, knocking the ball on in the 22, Atoje, Genge, Mitchell, you know, not uh not securing a line-out mall, letting someone come through the middle to to collapse it and losing the ball. Freddie Stewart getting himself tackled into touch by Darcy Graham, who uh Darcy Graham's a really good player, he's about half bloody Freddie Stewart's size, and he actually batters him into touch.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah, there's an argument to say is would a would a quicker fallback of the carpenter bolt, or maybe Marcus Smith. I think a quicker fullback may have had the legs to have avoided that situation as well. So there's a question mark around that question mark around Stewart and being the 15. Maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

I I mean I'm just I'm once I don't think we should throw baby out of the bathwater because of one bad performance, but I I agree that there are absolutely questions that all of these players got to answer this week, including Freddie Stewart, including George Ford, you know, including Maratoge. Um, you know, Pepper and Underhill have already been dropped for Pollock and Curry, which I think is probably um the right call. I thought Pollock and Curry actually were significantly better than Pepper Underhill when they came on. Um I I'm not saying we should throw I just don't think we should put the baby throw the baby out with the bathwater on every um every selection that was made against Scotland, but I completely agree and completely accept that effectively everyone in that 23, more or less, has real questions to answer in their next opportunity. Because it this it by I completely agree this is the worst performance I've seen from England probably since Borthwick came in. Probably since the warm-ups to the 2023 World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah, uh yeah, two two, three years it's been their worst performance, and I think that's why I'm just as you can tell so passionate about it, Rory. Because I just I don't want us to reverse all the good progress that had been made. Like I think back to the Argentina summer tour where George Ford was at 10 and we were playing proper rugby, where's that gone? What why are we reverting back to this really, really poor standard of rugby where it is kick first, think later?

SPEAKER_01 49:08

I for me it really looked like they were overawed in this game. They looked cowled by the by the game. They shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

They shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

If they should be they shouldn't be. That's that's where I think um that's where I think the questions really are. I I'm actually I'm not even sure that we should necessarily be questioning whether there's an attacking game plan or there's a plan B. I actually think there probably is. I think this team were not able to adapt in the situation, were not able to change things sufficiently. They could not shift the momentum in this game. You know, there probably is license for George Ford to switch from a kicking game if it's not working, but they didn't do it, and I don't know why.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

No, um they just need to let Lee Blackett out of the cupboard, they obviously left him in Twickledham for that weekend because what we've seen that he's able to bring to that England team was not on display on that pitch in Murrayfield at all in any way, shape, or form. And if it is Lee Blackett's game plan, you can go back to Bath because that that that's not going to win England any nations championships. It's obviously not gonna win any England any six nations championships, and we're not going to be challenging for the World Cup if our game plan is going to be kickball, kickball, kickball.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

I don't think we should drop everyone and start sending coaches away after one bad performance, but I do agree that there's a lot of questions that need answering.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

It's it's the sentiment of the fact that I would like to have at least seen Endeavour where at least something was tried, because then that's evidence of the coaches having an impact.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

If we're seeing the same thing, we've seen that in other games though. I think it's I think it's this particular game, it hasn't happened for whatever reason. And that's where I think the the the occasion has overawed the players because we have seen that in other games, but they didn't apply it in this game. And I think the question for me is why were they not able to um to bring that in this game? I don't think it's I don't think it's a case of they aren't able to do it because we've seen it, we've seen it against New Zealand, we've you know that we've seen it against Argentina three times last year, we saw it against Australia. That's why we saw it against Wales last week.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

If they're not overawed by Argentina in the the heartland of South America, why are they all of a sudden getting overawed by Scotland at Murrayfield where they play every two years?

SPEAKER_01 51:30

Yeah, this is this is the question. This is the question for me. Why why is it Murrayfield that this England team can't cope with the pressure of the situation? I think I think what will be interesting to find out is how they cope with France in Paris later on in this tournament. I mean, even actually, what how they cope with Italy and Rome? Because actually, the the really consistent thing is under Borthwick, this team is not performing away from home, particularly in the Six Nations. So the question is how are England going to respond to a yet another poor Six Nations away performance? Because it's already cost them the Grand Slam, and let's be frank, a performance of anything like this level, it's gonna cost them a top three finish because they won't beat Italy play as well as this.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

No, that's what I was yeah, I was just about to say like if they play like that against Italy, they will lose in Italy, they will lose to France. They 100% agree, and If they play like they did against Scotland against Ireland at Twickenham, Ireland could beat them the way that game was. If if they don't make any changes and they don't if they put the same performance on, that's that's how poor I think they were. And I and particularly Ireland aren't haven't been that good at all.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

No, but I I think for me that that it's the disparate that there is a real disparity in this team between their home performance and away performance. Think back to the Six Nations last year, their worst performance was Ireland away. You know, they I think under Borthwick, Wales away last year is the only away game he's won in the Six Nations. Interesting. It's it's that's a real problem.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

That's a real it's a real problem.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

It's a real problem, yeah. Because you can't win Six Nations if you don't do it, and this team should be winning Six Nations.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

No, and I think I was because last week we were talking about how that performance against Wales was a little underwhelming. Um and perhaps we've been lured into a false sense of security that England were doing so well.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Well, this is where I just think you know we shouldn't get too high when we win, but also, David, maybe let's not get too low when we lose, even with a performance as bad as that.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

We're a passionate pod. We're a passionate pod, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yeah, well, yes, yes, we certainly are this week, David.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

It's what happens when you don't have enough sleep. Um it's just it made me so angry. It made me so angry watching that game.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

I was sat I was sat there with my fiercely Welsh nationalist girlfriend. I bet you had a great time sly remarks across from the other side of the room.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

I bet she I bet she enjoyed it thoroughly. Uh but she doesn't even care about rugby, she was just enjoying watching us lose. And that everyone is the joy of being an England rugby fan. Everyone just enjoys watching us lose. And we lost badly. Uh it was 31-20, as I alluded to, a couple of loose tries, and who knows, it could have gone another way. Uh, but England did not deserve anything from the game, and they didn't get anything from that game. And Scotland deserved the win, they were the better team. Uh, but also if you're a Scotland fan, don't get too carried away, is what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm just saying Scotland, you haven't found your golden generation off the back of that performance either. Um, but let's move on, Rory. I think we've done enough uh pontificating around that performance. Uh another game I think we'll probably find a bit more common ground on Wales versus France. And uh safe to say at least one team in the Six Nations isn't disappointing. Wales continue to be poor.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Yes, no, well Wales are sticking true to form. Um in the show notes, David, you uh alluded to the commentary team taking any opportunity to find positivity in form. Every opportunity. Um I'm going to also take that opportunity to a very low extent, and this is only from the performance the week before. I thought physically Wales stood up much better this week against France. Now, France juaied around them. Let's let's not have any bones about it. France juaied and sauntered and moonwalked over the triline in this game because that their ball playing was so many levels above Wales, they absolutely shred them. But I thought man to man, I thought this was a much improved physical commitment from this Welsh side, which sh isn't is should be taken as red at international rugby. Like you know, let's not everyone on the back for being committed to tackles and carries, you know, because they still got battered on the game line with the ball in hand. Um but I saw a significant improvement in commitment to defence from Wales in this in this game, but that is all uh much of a muchness when it comes down to reviewing this one because ultimately I mean France just I mean they were plainly under lines at times. It was you know it started um it started ominously when Gayeton went over after like a minute or so, yeah. Um and it never really looked back from there. Um it's I thought for me the the stars of the show are this. I mean Jar Le Bert once again the star of the show in the back line. I thought the the centres were really good, Broberay and uh Gayeton were both excellent. I thought Ata Sogby probably outshone BLBRA uh this week. Um really, really prominent. There was one where he um he stepped around, it might have been Josh Adams, but it was just like they were just chasing shadows at point.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Um Olivon, I mean, my I've got a mate of mine, his wife. Her um, you know, if she was allowed a hall pass for her, it'd be Charles Olivon. Um, I might have to make the same agreement with my missus that I'm allowed to haul pass with Charles Olivon as well.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

It was Thomas Ramos last week.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Yeah, I know. It's a new Frenchman every week for me on Fickle like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

She needs to be careful. All these trips you make to France as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

I know it's suspect. It is suspect. Uh but but he was just so good. He was so good throughout this throughout this game. Um, I think Jagoux is week on week becoming more prominent in this France team as well. Um, the fact that that that he can step into the centres comfortably is is a huge gonna be a huge weapon for them at some point, but in the back row, he's just becoming so prominent to the point where you're not I I'm not thinking so much about the players they didn't pick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

You know, I haven't I haven't thought about Gregory Aldrit once.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Uh I'm not thinking about Aldrit. I'm not I'm not even thinking about Penny. No, because they've been that good. Um I mean for any team to be able to say that when they haven't picked those kind of players is is insane.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

But you know, the back row for France has been for I mean the whole pack, but the probably that back five with Olivon and Guillard devastating. It's absolutely devastating. I mean, I've no doubt that Audrey would be shining in this team because he's he's that good a player. But I think Chalonche is showing his credentials as well, though. I mean Chalonche is phenomenal. Let's be res Cross is probably the one that does all the unseen stuff in this France side, but he's just he's everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Um they're a hard team to analyse France because at the moment they're just good across the park, one to fifteen.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Yeah, I I cannot spot a weakness, and like it must be really hard preparing for playing France at the moment because coaches will do everything they can to try and spot where they can pinpoint weaknesses. I can't spot one. I I'm no professional coach, but uh there is nothing obvious to me that they're they are showing any sign of weakness. Their scrums holding up. We had question marks at the start at that start of the tournament, no question marks there now. Their line out looks good, their forwards and loose are so good, their back line, no matter who they pick in the centres, is fluid, it's dangerous, their defence is solid. Like I I cannot spot anything. I think what you said last week about it. This is a team being designed to be able to compete with South Africa, it's a hundred percent what it is, and I think it'll be really interesting uh when we do get the opportunity to see those two at full flight go against each other, because I think it is hard to call at the moment with with what there's being built there, these slight tweaks that Gautier's made to his selection and seemingly a little bit to the game plan, I th it it feels more solid and it feels it feels a bit less French if anything. It it feels a bit more ominous, where in the past there was always that question mark that the French team may just not turn up on the day. I I have no reservations along those lines anymore with that France team. Mentally they look there.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

I mean South African fans will point to how well they dispatched them in the autumn with 14 men, and they're right to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

Um, but yeah, I I think looking at this team today, um, they're well I I yeah, just on that, I think the France we're swinging in the Six Nations is a completely different version of France we saw in the Autumn Internationals. I remember us like we we were not impressed by France in the autumn. I'm very impressed by France in the Six Nations.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

Yeah, I I think that's right, and I think the the difference for me is You're right, there's there's some really un-French elements to this team in terms of their ability to be solid and play when they don't have the ball and just pressurize um teams with their defence, but they have all the hallmarks of a France team where they have the ball in hand, and if if if they can get the ball in hand and play anything to the level they're playing at now against anyone else in the world, they'll beat them. Yeah, I just because even even South Africa, as brilliant as they are and as relentless as they can be when they got the ball, I just don't think any team could cope with an international side of this quality playing the way that they are. Again, you know, you know, we'll acknowledge that their first two um two weeks have been against uh an underperforming Ireland and a Wales side that is where it is, but at the moment I just don't see a challenge there. I mean, it'd be inter actually be interesting to see how they go against Italy this weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Yeah, because they are the uh the other team that has impressed me a lot in both weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

It's it's it's actually the two form sides going against each other for my money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though I don't know Italy lost against Ireland, but um yeah, I it's it's it's difficult to pinpoint any problems with this France. I I can't see them.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

No, no nor can I. Uh which you know hooray for them, I guess. Uh and I I will I will kind of uh not necessarily backtrack on my assessment of Wales being poor because they were poor. And there's definitely like I I think Wainwright's carrying brings a degree of optimism. Reese Samet is looking like a bit of a fret still at fullback. Um there there are a few green shoots for them to kind of build on, but I I still think yes, they are playing with commitment now. Yes, they do seem to be carrying with a bit of anger, maybe, and playing with a little bit of motivation that we was definitely missing in week one. But not enough for me yet, for if I was a Wales fan to think that a corner has been turned significantly. Oh god, no. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

I don't think a corner's been turned. Uh all I saw was them reaching minimum standards of physical commitment and defence. Yeah, which you know playing internationally should be again. For me, that's how yeah, that's just a reflection on how bad they were last week against England.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. Uh it's it's it is harder to analyse and just to not wax lyrical about France at the moment. Um I think I think a challenge for France going forward, and it's something that I'm kind of picking up with, are we seeing a little bit of a shift of the main man not necessarily being DuPont? Because I think Jalibert in the first two weeks has been the main man, and DuPont is kind of being overshadowed a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Well, I think it's interesting that I think it's interesting that to see what happens to DuPont when there's because Jalibert is one of very, very few players in the world who could come who can sit on the same kind of pantheon as someone like DuPont. I mean, to be honest, Sasha Feinberg and Guzulu and maybe Finn Russell, maybe Bowden Barrett, but don't know if he's reached as uh the only players that could sit in that 10 shirt outside DuPont and command um his kind of acquiescence in decision making. Most tens Enter Mac just like you know, a brilliant player. I loved Inter Mac, but you know, there's no slot on him. Enter Mac was very happy to sit in an armchair at 10 and just play as and when DuPont fancy giving him the ball. Yeah, he was just quite happy to let DuPont run the rest of the show, you know, Le Petit General, as you know, nines are sort of framed in France. Jalobert is kind of a rare breed of French fly half that they they haven't really ever had, to my mind, not at this level, who runs the show, runs the back line. Um, and it's quite interesting to see that DuPont has isn't there's no ego seemingly there in this at the moment between them. DuPont's not trying to wrestle control of the game away from Janabert. He seems quite happy to facilitate and then just add his own touch because I thought DuPont was better this week than he was last week.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

You know, again, I don't think it was bad last week, buddy stretched, but you know, I thought he was more himself this week than he was last week. But whilst still letting Janobert kind of run the show, um I think it's interesting that that there isn't that kind of maybe that was always the concern was to why they haven't done it before they they assumed there would be kind of a friction there between a ten who wanted to run the show and DuPont who wants to run the show, and actually what we're learning is DuPont doesn't have that ego to do that, yeah. Yeah, whilst whilst being perfectly capable of it, and probably quite entitled to be to have that ego if he wanted.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:21

Yeah. Um if anything, it might be it might be taking the pressure off him because he is coming back from an ACL injury, which is notoriously tricky to come back from. Maybe he's just appreciating someone else taking that shouldering some of that responsibility, and then I think it may be it may be something that really actually helps France go to that next level. Because I I think I agree Untimac fantastic player, but Jalibert and Dupont, if they are fit and firing and in their top of their game, I I I don't see anyone stopping France uh with those two in red hot four. And you throw Ramos into that with what he can do in the channels and step it up at 10. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and I I'd also add, like, I was really impressed. With Bro Beret and Gayeton. The step-in centres, like the depth they have is is uh mighty impressive. Uh so yeah, so we can either wax lyrical a bit more about um France, Rory, or we can go to our team of the week.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Let's do the team of the week because I think if I wax more lyrical about the French, people really are gonna start asking questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:24

Yeah, yeah, yes, this is becoming a bit of a problem, I think, Rory. Uh well, let's start. Area of comfortability, props. Who's your one and three, Rory? I've gone Faschetti and Ferrari again. Me too. Uh though those two are the form props setting setting propping worlds uh alight with their performances uh this tournament. Faschetti Ferrari for me are just doing a stand-up job for Italy. But who's your hooker this week? Marchon. Three from three, I agree. Marchon, excellent job steering France, and albeit relatively comfortable performance, but he he plays a huge part in that set piece. Uh, and it being like the line out is so solid, scrum's solid, he does excellent link-up work, he carries strongly. Hard to look beyond him. Uh second row, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:12

In the four shirt, I've got Charles Olivant. Four from four, yeah. And in the five shirt, I've got Zamboni, uh, who I thought ran the Italian line out superbly. Um I think they lost two line outs all day. Um, he was he he took, I think, all but one line out. I think they lost one line out that went to Canonian and got one that was overthrown, and he took everything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Yeah, I think he got a couple of steals as well. Um I'm not against it. I'll go on Guillard just because he I think he got three turnovers, like his work in the breakdowns ridiculous, uh, and his carrying's ridiculous. But Zamboni, or Andrea Zambonin, to give him his proper name, uh, is not a bad pick. Uh your six, Rory. Well, I I will admit my uh I've done a little bit of fiddling in my back row. Uh so who who's your six, seven, eight?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

I've got Richie at six, who I thought was a thorn in England, so as he always is against England, to be honest. He he loves this game and he absolutely turned up and scored a try. Um I thought he was well worth uh he's well worth a pick there. Uh at seven I've gone for Jagou, who I'm just continuously impressed with. Um Darge is probably a bit hard done by there, um, as is probably Doris, who I thought was very good at seven. Um, probably Ireland's standout player, certainly in the pack. But Jagou for me is fast becoming a star in that France side. And at eight, I've gone Dempsey. Um I thought Geolange was excellent for France. Um Conan obviously scored a try, but Dempsey again just put Dents into the England side all day.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Okay, okay. So a bit of fit. So I put Daj at six, uh purely because uh I take what I'm saying with Richie, but he only played one half, he was placed by replaced by Fagason. Daj was a fawn in the defensive line for Scotland the entire game, so I put him in there and I wanted to put Zuliani at seven. Yeah, Zuliani was great because he was phenomenal for Italy, and I gone Gillonch at eight. I nearly went Earl just because of the work rate. He did like 24 carries, ridiculous, like ridiculous amount of work. Um you know I'm I'm led by stats. Like I looked at Dempsey's stats, like they weren't that they weren't that great. Uh I I thought about Dempsey, but I don't think his impact was as great as the likes of Gillonch. So that's why I ended up with Jalonch over Earl and Dempsey.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

Scrum half and fly half Rory. Scrum half, I went Ben White. Fly half I went Jalibert.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

I went Dupe DuPont Jalibert. Um, maybe my anti Scotland is just getting in the way of me wanting to pick any too many Scottish players, but you know, I thought DuPont was very, very good and Ben White, just you know, six out of ten performance like the rest of Scotland. Um your centres, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

Uh I'm going to go with Tupelotto and Gayaton.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

Okay. So I went Browberet and Hugh Jones.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Oh, interesting, because those are my those are my B options on both of those.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

Okay, okay. So, you know, I've given Scotland a bit of something there. I thought Hugh Jones was, you know, credit where credit due. No, let's go Brow Baret and uh Gayaton. Uh that way everyone's happy. Uh your wingers, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Uh Lowe and Stain. So I thought, I mean, BLBRA and Atisogbe are both brilliant for France. Um, I thought actually Montiuani had a very good game as well. Uh, but I thought James Lowe was prrr was was I thought he he was excellent for Ireland, really answered a lot of a lot of questions. And I thought Karl State was Scotland's best player.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

So I went low and at a sogbe, uh personally.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:46

But you know you aren't just determined not to give France uh not to give Scotland any flowers this week, are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

He had a couple of nice moments, but beyond that, like nothing too like I wouldn't say it was a solid 80. Uh like like I I just don't think Scotland didn't offer that much an attack. That's what that I just I think they defended well and they took their opportunities, but I don't think they offered that much an attack. And then when they did score, it was off the back of England errors, like it wasn't anything off of their own making. That's why bonus point win. I mean out of how many gifted tries given to them, like let's not get carried away. Like that's that's not off the back of the creativity.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

How many 22 entries did England have that they didn't take advantage of, but Scotland did? You know, there's there's something to be said for taking your opportunities when they come down.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

That's why there's no England players in my squad either, Rory.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Um your fullback, Rory. I was tempted by Osborne, who I thought was was very good for Ireland. I was tempted by Ramos just because I fancy him. Uh, but I'm actually gonna go for Panny, uh, who I thought was really good for Italy again.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Yeah, I had Ramos, and I was thinking just like because he's such a handsome man and his place kicking's just a thing of beauty. But I I I'll happily uh let Panny come into that because I yeah, I agree. Considering he's probably one of the lesser known Italian back three players.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

Come back from a big injury, and uh from what they were saying on the commentary, I think he's been struggling mentally to to cope with the the big injury he's had. Um so you've not we've not actually seen much of him the last couple of years, but I thought he was phenomenal. There was one chip in Chases in particular that was extra, nearly put Lamarro in the in behind um Osborne.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

Yeah, okay, yeah. I'll I'll happily happily allow Panny to come in. And that leaves us for we to do our week three predictions. Um let's start off with the first game. Is the first game is that England Island? Is that the first one?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

Yeah. Well, Henry Pollock starts at number eight, David.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

Oh, that means England are gonna win then, doesn't it? Because uh I I would like to point out that I didn't mention the great Messiah's name once in my assessment.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

No, no, I I mean I to be honest, I thought he was probably I thought he was actually very good when he was on the pitch, really, but by the standards of the performance.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

By the by the he was given 15 minutes. Uh I know no, you got half an hour in this game, didn't he? But yes, I agree. I th I did think he at least showed a bit of you know creativity. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

I mean, to be fair, I think the red card probably meant that our bench didn't come on as early as they were expected to. Um, but yeah, uh I'd be interested. I mean it's his first start for England. Yeah, at eight as well. So Ben L move into seven. I'd be interested to see how they kind of line up at scrum time in defence and attack, whether they switch that round at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:23

I'd be surprised if they didn't. Uh I'd I imagine Pollock will be scrumming down on the flank. I I just have a feeling we're gonna see Earl at eight at the scrums.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Well, let's be honest. I mean, between Earl, Pollock, and Curry, all three can play with any of those numbers on their backs.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:39

Yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

Um probably raises some questions about what's gonna happen at line out time. They'll have to England will have to be right on their metal to to, although I know Pollock can jump and Curry has jumped a bit, but they're not natural jumpers, I'll say they're not they're not the tallest. Um but what's but it'd be interesting. Um all that being said, I mean, I think England's home form and also the need to respond this week uh will probably get them over the line on this one. Um Ireland, if there's a game they're gonna get up for, they're gonna get up for this one. But I think they're gonna they don't have the scrum. I think they don't seem to have the impact and attack to trouble this England defence with particularly with I think with Lawrence back in the centres. England have got a bit more punch there. Um I'm gonna give I'm gonna give England the benefit of the doubt to a response this week, and I think it will be 27-15 to England.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:35

Yeah, I I think we do see a response from England. I think England win. I'm not confident it's gonna be pretty. I think it may be quite a regimented performance to try and ensure an England victory. I think we're gonna see the scrum a lot. I think you know, maybe we'll see a yellow card for Ireland if their tight head gets pinged five times, you know. It doesn't always happen, as we saw the weekend, but we might see a yellow card for Ireland, and England might take advantage of that because I I do see Genj having a field day up against Clarkson or Furlong, whoever they pick there, and Luffman will probably struggle against Hayes. So I do think, albeit England weren't able to make that work to their advantage at Murrayfield, I do think England will use that to her advantage at Twickenham. So I do think England win. And I I think it could be seven points in it, but I think England will get a win. Maybe like maybe four tries to three, uh something like that. Uh Wales versus Scotland. Scotland bouncing after their triumph and amazing world-class performances.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

It would be so Scotland to lose this game.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

It would be so Scotland. Um but I don't think they will actually. I think Scotland will win this one. Um I don't think it'll be as emphatic as Wales' first two results. Um, but I would still expect this to be relatively comfortable for Scotland. I'm gonna guess. 33-19 to Scotland.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Okay, yeah. It might 35-10 is the number in my head. Um don't know where I don't know why, but I just feel like that's what it'll be that ballpark. I think Scotland will have too much, Wales will have a couple of nice moments, uh, but Scotland will just have too much for them at the end of the day. And I think that will be the story of Wales's tournament. I think just every team they come against will just have a bit too much for them at the moment. Uh, and then the final game, uh, two form teams we mentioned France versus Italy. Interesting. Where do you see this one landing?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:29

Well, ultimately, I think France are gonna win this one. Um, I think it will be a good game. I could see this being an interesting game for both sides. I think Italy will put France under more pressure than they've had in the first two games.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

Um I hope they've got enough kind of emotional reserves after the island game to get up for this one. But ultimately, I think Scotland I think France will probably win this one. Relative ease. I'm thinking the number in my head is something on the lines of 38-20.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Yeah, I because I know Italy have the potential to be a banana skin for France, they have been in the past, but I think the way the way France are playing at the moment, I just I don't see them certainly at home slipping on this particular banana skin, but I I think by no means Italy disappoint themselves. I don't think this is going to be a similar score that France got at the Principality. Uh, I I don't I have a I have a funny feeling it's not gonna be as high scoring as the other games. I I think this one could be something like 22-15 or something like that. I think they might nullify each other a little bit because I think Italy know how to defend. I think it's just gonna be a question of how how well they can do it for 80 minutes. Uh, and I do think they can lastly on their metal, yeah, absolutely. But so I I I think that's where it goes. I may maybe France would probably score a bit more, but I think it I think it'll be a really good game, regardless. But I do see France coming out on top. Uh, but yeah, let's uh see uh how this weekend goes, and hopefully I'll be in a much better mood next week, Rory. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed, eh? But yeah, that's us, Rory. Uh that leaves us with Rory's final thought before we go to the closing jingle.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

Anyone recommend uh some earplugs and eye masks for David before next week so that he's uh more cheerful for our next record.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:22

We've been Rux Bulls and Oberbulls. I'm gonna go shopping for some eye masks and earplugs just so I don't annoy Rory anymore. We'll be back again next week, hopefully, with a bit more optimism and cheer. Uh if you've enjoyed listening, please do like, follow, and subscribe, and we'll be back again. Ta ra! Ta da.