S2 Ep 24 - England Exposed, Ireland Composed

A week that began with jokes about sore calves and team-name puns turned into one of our frankest breakdowns yet. We open with the biggest off-field story: reports that the RFU council is set to back a franchise model, pausing promotion and relegation while plotting a path to expanded conferences by 2030. We explore why this shift might be necessary to stabilise the Premiership, how it could revive clubs and regions starved of investment, and what’s at risk when British sport’s cherished jeopardy is put on pause.

From there, we go straight into the rugby. England’s defeat to Ireland wasn’t just a bad day—it exposed a vacuum of clarity. We detail the turnovers, the breakdown slippage, the low 22 conversion, and the aerial game gone missing. We question selection balance, coaching churn, and the mental side when proven players look smaller in the shirt. Then we tip the cap: Ireland were ice cold. Gibson-Park set a world-class tempo, Crowley steered, Sheehan pounced, and McCarthy mauled through momentum moments that shut down any English spark.

Elsewhere, Wales showed heart and shape at last, driven by Wainwright, Lake, and a pack that found its edge; Scotland escaped thanks to Finn Russell’s calm violence with the boot and ball. France? Relentless flow, immaculate skills, and solutions everywhere—even with late reshuffles—while Italy kept pace in most areas but lacked the final sting in the red zone. We pick a Team of the Week that mirrors those truths.

We end with hope. The Premiership Next Gen U18 Finals delivered high-skill rugby, real club identities, and a clutch of names to remember, capped by Bristol’s second-half surge over favourites Bath. If the franchise era is coming, the payoff must be here: invest in coaching, pathways, and game time so the senior jersey feels lighter, not heavier.

Listen, share your take on franchising and selection fixes, and help us spread the word. If you enjoy our honest rugby chat, hit follow, leave a review, and send this to a mate who loves a good breakdown.

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Transcript

Banter, Fat Football, And Warm-Up

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Rux Balls and Oval Balls. Yes, that's right, it's the fans favourite rugby podcast back again with fans favourite rugby podcast hosts. That's right, it's me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory say hello to the listener as you always do.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Hello, hello listener! Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Oh, I'm well, I'm well. Uh I can confirm early doors, I've had a bit more sleep. My mood should be better than last week, but I fear things may get in the way of that optimism quite early on. But we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, I don't think my mood's gonna be much better than yours was last week. So uh Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Well let's keep the powder dry on that one, shall we? Gracious elves, people. Outside of that, Rory, how are you? How are things going?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Good, yeah, not so bad. Not so bad. I uh I watched the games on Saturday with some other old stable mates from Essex University who uh popped down to Leon C to watch uh watch the game in the sunshine. So uh it was a nice uh it was a nice day if the if the results weren't quite reflective of that, but uh um no rugby obviously this last week. So looking forward to a run-up with the Lions this week to uh exert some frustrations.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Well, it sounds like it's much needed. It's much needed. Also, I I I laced the boots when out of Man V fat for the first time in a few months uh yesterday. How'd you feel? Sore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing how not doing something for three months and then going straight back into it, your body ain't ready for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Um no, no, no, it's uh it it really is quite a profound ache that you get.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

I mean I think that's what's called aging. Um I think I'm I'm really I'm really feeling the wrath of that that part of life. Uh but no, it was good, good to get back there. It was good to see some familiar faces, some new faces. So, you know, it's good to get going.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Bristol Club's still going strong then.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

It's getting there, it's getting they've had to so they had four teams when I stopped going. They've had to go down to three teams because the season I left there, the playing numbers weren't weren't doing so good. Uh, but it was a good turnout last night, so hopefully, the poor weather being behind us, um some new faces coming along, some good word of mouth, and maybe we'll get some more people down because it's always good fun. Yeah. Uh and I'm I'm now a proud member of the red team, or as I've been able to scroll my way in and already dictate the name of the team, the Scale Sharks. Um, so I'll uh I'll keep you all uh up to date.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Good so the three months in between playing wasn't wasted whilst you jotted down some potential team names for your return.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

There's one thing I love is a pun. Uh but yeah, I'll I'll keep everyone up to date with the progress of the red team in North Bristol's Man v fat this season.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Absolutely. Well, I think I I I need to get back on the horse with the old uh the weight loss as well, David. So I think you and I can uh can support each other's journey going into the summer. So we're summer board ready.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Oh, summer board ready. Imagine it. Oh, yeah. That's a it's a challenge we'll have to step up to, Rory. But I'm sure between us we can at least uh shed a couple of kegs. Between us and ab. A singular ab would be lovely. But Rory, I know it's always good fun talking about our personal lives on this podcast, but the people aren't here to listen about that. They're here, they are here to listen to us talk about rugby, maybe rant about rugby. Just again, heads up. This one might be ranty. Uh we're an honest pod, and it turns out this week we might be a ranty pod. Um we'll try, we'll try and consider.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

We got a lot of comments about uh some of the honesty exhibited last week, David. I'm I'll be interested to see what the comments are on our honesty this week.

News: RFU Franchising And Project Forge

SPEAKER_00 3:43

I look forward to it. I look forward to it. Um but you know, we'll try and also be unbiased, we'll try and shed some light on some of the other games that went on this weekend, because there's some good news stories if you are fans of nations that aren't England. Uh and at the end, I will do a little summary of the Prem Next Gen Under 18 Academy League that came to a close over the weekend, uh, just because I thought it was uh a real good event and something we should shine a light on. How does that sound to you, Rory? Does that sound like a podcast we can embark upon? Sounds like one I can endorse. Thank God, because it'd be awkward if you said no. Uh but starting off with, uh, we usually do a little bit of news. I think the only thing that I've picked out uh for this week that may be worth us talking about, uh, very much in our wheelhouse, is that uh the rugby paper is reporting uh just today, actually, that the RFU council are primed to rubber stamp this week the attempts by the Prem Clubs, Bill Sweeney, the RFU exec of franchising and getting rid of promotion and relegation in the top tier of English rugby. Um obviously details are scarce and it's all speculation at this point, but it looks like it's gonna lock in potentially the 10 teams up until 2030. The idea is then to open it up to more teams who want to enter the franchise franchise model. I've seen some quotes saying that they could be gearing up towards having like 20, 24 teams in the future. So Allah maybe two ring friends potentially I think we talked about a model like that in the past anyway.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah, I think that kind of aligns with what what we talked about. I think that it's such an emotional issue removing relegation out of a British sporting pyramid because it's so ingrained in in British sport to have have promotional relegation and jeopardy both ends of the leagues. Um, I think what we spoke about and kind of how I view this is we have to just hope this is the start and not the end. Um, and I think getting to that point where we've potentially got let's say we may we have 24 franchises um in five, ten years time and a two-league um franchising system, that's quite a healthy place for English rugby to be in, particularly compared to now. Yeah um, and this is probably the only way you can do it by growing the value of the league as it is today, and then creating a pathway to build out to the that wider franchise model. Um I my gut feel is they will go to 14 teams is be would be the next step, and probably in two conferences, yeah. Um and then moving moving from there to expand to 18, 20, 24, depending on growth prospects of other teams. I mean, it does mean that they are gonna have to at some point find a way to guide finance towards champ sides. Yes. Um, you know, they're obviously a handful that are on kind of the pathway. Worcester, obviously, Ealing, Doncaster have a um a potential pathway, particularly in that Yorkshire region. Um Coventry. Coventry, I think, would be on that pathway. I suspect they're planning ahead for London Irish and Wasps being in the mix, maybe someone like London Welsh, yeah, who are back in National 2 at the moment, I think.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, and that's and that that that Yorkshire team who spoke about before in the past as well, of kind of having a Yorkshire team.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I I would imagine they'd be hopeful of Doncaster and someone like Rotherham, maybe I mean I mean they probably would have loved Leeds to make the way back, although I think Leeds have been a bit of a basket case for a while.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Um so I think if the Prem and the RFU can put a long-term plan in place to strategically build out a franchise model to get that kind of full national coverage, probably is the way to do it and does make sense.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Um as long as the council rubber stamp it and get out of everyone's way, then yeah, there's there's an interesting like uh paragraph or two in the article I read this in where there's there's amongst everything that's getting put in front of them, there's a thing called Project Forge, which looks like may well be them being asked to rubber stamp and sign off on their own demise and getting rid of the RFU council in the current situation. So it'll be interesting to see how and what news comes out at the end of this week.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Um well, generally speaking, turkeys don't vote for Christmas, but there's one thing we know about the RFU council turkeys, they do love gravy. They do. So maybe they will vote for Christmas on this occasion.

Setting Up The England–Ireland Autopsy

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Maybe they will. But I think I I think the thing for the list to take away from here is this proposed speculation around franchising and getting rid of promotion relegation. I am 99.9% certain that is heading our way. Like yeah, we always say there's no smoke without fire, and this fire has been roaring for some time. Um I think it's inevitable, and I think it's probably necessary. It is, and I suspect what we'll hear is that they'll they'll set out a plan. So I think the prem as we know it now will be what it is for the next three, four years to 2030, and I think that's the the line in the sand they're gonna be aiming at to increase it up to that 14. So I think those are the time scales we're talking. Um and whether that coincides with kind of the global calendar, then you can figure out how you fit all these new models in. Like there's a few pieces of the puzzle that could all fall into place, and it'll be interesting uh to see what does come out if it is all happening this Friday as being reported. But Rory, that was the only bit of the news.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, the constant shifting sands of the global rugby landscape. Oh, that sounded poetic, Rory. That sounds that's prose. That's prose, right? That is pros, that is prose.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Uh but you know, I very much enjoyed talking this rugby news section with you, Rory, because this is a positive, happy podcast that we try and remain positive and happy in, but I'm very conscious that the next step is for us to start. We're delaying the inevitable. Yeah, does it f is it obvious that I'm uh just uh dancing around the fact that we just talk about the Prem Rugby Cup?

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Gloucester got a really good result in that.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

We could. We could talk about paint drying, uh, we could talk about tax codes. These are all things I'd rather talk about.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

All things that I enjoy more than that England performance. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Listen that we'll we'll talk about the Six Nations and we're gonna talk about England versus Ireland. Now, I know last week I was a little bit moony.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Well, I think on this occasion, David, you were kind enough last week to give me the opportunity to open up the discussion, you then to get moy. I'd like to return the favour on this occasion to for you to give your your thoughts on the game, and then I can pick those apart with anger.

England’s Tactics, Skills, And Selection Crisis

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Okay, um it's tricky because on one hand I feel like what I was saying last week's been completely justified, um because you know they just gotta done it again, but you know, a little bit worse. Um just matter of fact, for some reason I don't know what's happened in the space of a few weeks. That is a side of players who seem bereft of confidence, bereft of motivation in playing in an England shirt, bereft of tactical and defensive ability. The I haven't seen an England performance that bad for a long, long, long, long time. And I think it's we can sit here and put our hat on the scrum being strong. Uh which was literally probably the only slight positive, albeit we should have been strong considering Ireland had their fourth choice loose head and has been going backwards um the entire tournament anyway, so it's not really a big old pat on the back we should be giving ourselves. Um but I don't think to a man there was a player there who justified their match fee they'll be receiving, because I don't think any of them performed up to the standard we should expect of people in that shirt. And do we get to a point now and it feels really dumb because like three, four weeks ago I'm very aware that we were singing the praises of Steve Borthwick and all the changes he's done and the directions he's moved England to and how positive all things were. It's amazing how things change in such a small amount of time. But it's because I think it's just the nature and the gravity of how poor that performance was against a team in Ireland who Yeah, that's uh I think they played well on the day. I'm not gonna take that away from them. But this is not prime golden age Ireland we're talking about. They were just so much better than England was, and it's frustrating because change is obviously needed, and I don't want to sit here and call for a coach's job, I don't want to sit here and say all of those players shouldn't play again in an English shirt. But change has to come, surely, because that wasn't good enough, and there's a number of players who should it should it be their last time in an English shirt for some time unless until they go and prove themselves again. Um I think you you watched that game back, the tackling was the equivalent of going to watch your undernines at your local team, like it was dismal. The lack of foot that seemed to be in place. It's the second week in a row where the last defenders are prop uh chasing players back because for some reason there has been no foresight, there's been no willingness to chase back, and for some reason our backs don't seem to be able to do that anymore. Uh one of the big strengths of England's game, the kicking game and being in the air, second week in a row, we've been found absolutely wanting and looking like we've never been able to catch a high ball in our life. Considering that is what the game plan is, it's a bit worrying. What have they been doing on the training pitch if they haven't been able to execute that because they've been second best two weeks in a row now against two teams who arguably haven't been as good at that as England have been for some time. Uh, attacking wise, there was nothing on display. It was another case of plan A's not working. George Ford tried to do a little bit of running the ball, what happened? He got turned over nearly every time we went into contact, and he just looked like a deer in headlights because oh, suddenly I can't kick the ball, I'm just gonna get tackled and I don't know what to do. Uh but I don't I I don't want to point the finger at any individual because I think collectively they were all really, really poor, and no one was helping each other out, and that's why they all looked really bad. And you know, I'm a proud Saints fan. There's a number of Saints on that pitch. I know last week I was uh very much defending the case of the likes of Alex Bitchell and things like that. But well, one, he went off injured, so you can't he can't take most of the blame this week, thankfully. Um but you know, the rest of them, like Tommy Friedman was unused. Fraser Dingwall would have fallen off a couple of tackles and not really do much. Henry Pollock got a silly yellow card, he looked busy, but was the balance of the back row a big problem there? Because we had a number of I saw it early on, there's a few occasions where Bern Earl and Henry Pollock were getting in each other's way. I think they were just both trying to play the exact same game, and I think they just got in each other's way. Um yeah, it's just it's really hard to try and find something positive out of this game. Um Rory, have I missed anything that's on your list of uh bad news?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Uh I think there's a lot, there's a lot of individual um elements to the game plan that that you could you can deconstruct. Um the only disagreement I've got with anything you've said is I felt like Joe Hazer and his match fee. Um I thought if he felt like the only one who was going a bit above and beyond.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Um he was the prop who was chasing back. Um yeah. And to be fair, yeah, scrub type was possible, but he was the tight head who was up against the fourth choice loose head.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Um yeah, no, I mean I'm not saying I'm not saying he didn't have an entree, but you know, he did he did a few out-of-the-box things. He made I saw him make a fair fair number of tackles. Uh, Joe Hayes is the but I mean that is that is me grasping at straws to to find any positive performance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. Outs outside of that, I mean you've covered a lot of the points together. There's the reality is you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater in a situation like that. I suspect there's an element of the number of coaching changes we've had coming home to Roost. That's that looked evidence under the for the with the defence um as it was. Um obviously Richard Wiggleworth uh Wigglesworth taking over that um defence from Joel Abb recently. Um Wigglesworth ran out of his defensive ability. Yeah, you've obviously had Byron McGriggan's been in there for various bits and pieces. Felix Jones not too long ago, obviously Joel Abbott himself, who's still I think working with the forwards, but not really sure exactly what his role is. Um they looked uh very confused in defence, um, which was then compounded with what looked to me like, and I I hate criticising pro players of this, but looked like a lack of effort and commitment. Um, and do you know what? We can I think we can call out some people individually. You know, there was uh Ellis Genge on Calen Doris where he throws a weak shoulder into the ribs but doesn't try and rap, and Doris makes yards. Ollie Lawrence I saw do the same. Arendel wasn't particularly good in defence. Um you know, I don't think anyone was tick was particularly good in defence at all. Cam and Dickey got pinged again for um another shot. Um it's all all poor on the defensive side. The most egregious problem is the turnovers. Um unforced turnovers, 24 unforced turnovers in this match.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

That stat of turnovers and penalties is the most conceded by any England side for 15 years in one game.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, I and it's it's inexcusable because it's the the kicking game, uh they're not picking up the scraps like they did last year. I think what's happened is the other teams have realized that as long as you mark the scraps and kill England's chance of recovering those, which sometimes England do themselves by just being poor skills and poor catch-in, um, they don't really seem to have an avenue into their attacking game. But also, for some reason, all the players seem to have completely negated the idea that maybe they could just catch the ball as opposed to batting it.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

That's my head in that's the tactic now, isn't it? You don't try and catch a ball anymore, it's literally just get your hand up and knock it back.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

They just negated that as a skill set. And I understand it's difficult to do, but that that is the reason you've been picked. That's the reason why someone like Freddie Stewart, Toby Freeman, Robot the week before, though they were picked because of their apparent ability to do that. That seems to have left them. Um I thought the I mean the lack of execution in the 22, their inability to finish off opportunities is now a real problem. It was a problem last year, but kind of masked by a strong defence. Take away the strong defence, that is a real, real problem. They've got, I think, the second lowest um conversion of any T1 nation. Um, and that is coming home to Roost now because for whatever reason, they either panic in the 22 or they are so sloppy with the ball at the breakdown. I mean, more knock-ons again in the 22, more inability to manage their own breakdown. Um, Ireland uh absolutely decimated this the breakdown and the mall. Um destroyed the mall. Yeah, it looked foreboding with that first line out more, but it was just it was a sign of things to come when Joe McCarthy just absolutely splintered it. That is a collective issue from a forward pack.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, it should be. I also think it doesn't help when your fly half puts two penalties dead. Things like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

I mean, doesn't it? George Ford, who last year looked like a man who could do no wrong when it came to the nuts and bolts of his position in the last two weeks, can do no right. Um, he was England's top ball carrier for meters and carries in this game. Now, with the best one in the world, George Ford is amongst the last names on that team sheet. I would want to have that stat. Yeah, but it's between between him and Joe Hayes, who would have won at least to have that stat. Um, because it's not his game, and it's and you were right, you know, he got turned over consistently. But that's that's just so many moving parts issues. Where where were his options basketball? Why is he having to run it?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, no one is hoping.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah, that falls down to your midfield. You know, I thought Dingwall was mostly anonymous in this game, he didn't do any of that kind of glue work that he's supposedly famed for. He was he was anonymous. Ollie Lawrence didn't was never really in the games bar one try. Um, you know, the wingers weren't working off of their wing. You know, if you compare what Balakoon was doing to Arundel and Freeman, you know, Balakoon was popping up all over the place. Looking at it for the was it Osborne's try or a brick? It was a Bryan's try, wasn't he? Put him in when he made the makes the break and puts him in on the left. Yeah, that's great work rate. Didn't see any of that from England's wingers at the weekend. Um, the back row, England have now, I think, won two turnovers in the whole tournament. That's bad. Oh, that's so bad. When you're picking three sevens, that is bad. Yeah, that's real bad. Um, I think I don't think I don't think of any of the back rowers England have played in so far in the Six Nations. I don't think any of them um have hit their hit their straps even remotely. I mean, Ben Earl was the best of a bad bunch last week. This week maybe he was again, but I mean, again, split in hairs, five. I think all five are poor. Um, whatever the game plan is with those five back rowers is not working. Um and they were showing up, I mean, they were obviously showing up at line out time, the line out fell apart. The this we've talked about it before the the need to have pre line out jumpers. Ireland had four in their team McCarthy, Ryan, Byrne, and Doris, who are all very comfortable line out jumpers, and to Dismantled England. To an extent, I felt sorry for Luke Karandicki being kind of the carrying the can for that, but ultimately he'd been poor. There is now a real question mark about what England do at Hooker because Jamie George is 35 and retiring in 18 months, and Luke Karindicke is out of sorts and possibly not the player you need him to be at the moment. Maro Atoje looks mentally shot. Yeah, he just looks, you know, I you know, I sympathise, you know. Obviously, this he has got he has gone through a really, really difficult period with his mum dying, but he's been hooked in the last two weeks, having, I think, never really been substituted before for England. Yeah, he was always an 80-minute man, wasn't he? Always an 80-minute man. The reality is he just looks like a man who is just under fire and doesn't he can't do anything like what he's meant to do. And I think at the moment it's that kind of sunk cost fallacy of you keep playing and thinking he'll get back to his best, but he just looks like he's drowning under the under the weight of whatever it is he's going through at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah.

Coaching Turmoil And Leadership Questions

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Um, you know, coaching-wise, the the reality is this England team is not as good as we thought it was. It's probably not as bad as we think it is today, but sport is emotional and romantic and reactionary. You know, you you know, you you are only ever as good as your last game to most fans. And we'll you know, you can try and put context, you know, last week, you know, trying to put context on it. You know, this is a team that beat New Zealand, beat Argentina three times, beat Australia, beat France, beat Scotland, but they seem like a team that whatever it's trying to do, and maybe it is trying to take the next step in its evolution, but whatever it is trying to do, the players are either not bought in or they're not understanding it. They kicked 18 times in this test match, it's the lowest of any team in the Six Nations throughout this whole tournament. They didn't kick enough because they kept dropping the ball before they could kick it, because they kept dropping the ball. Well, they're bad possession, but but also it suggests they were they'd gone away from whatever it was that was working, and plan B wasn't working either. You know, it tactically they look so confused, yeah. They don't look like they know when to kick, they don't look like they know how best to kick, they don't look like they know how to best to play with the ball. The skill sets were appalling. I mean, just across the board appalling.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Um I think what makes it this more annoying is that we watch these players week in, week out in the prem, so and we know what they are capable of. And and it's just when you see them run out in an England shirt and they just don't hit those standards, anywhere near those standards, when it's two weeks in a row, you really have to start asking questions.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

They're shrinking, they are shrinking under the shirt again. Having gone through this that point where it looked like players were shrinking, which let's be honest, it looked like in the Eddie Jones era, towards the end, that's what the players looked like. They then seemed to be in a position where they weren't doing that, you know, they were holding the shirt up well all through last year. They looked like a team that was confident in how to how to win games, how to play, how to put in a performance. They now all of a sudden look like they're shrinking again, and that suggests a team that is mentally not as strong as we thought it was. They looked mentally weak. They look mentally weak last week, they look mentally weak this week. And it's a harsh criticism of players who have got proven track records, but you know, you can only take what you see, and there's players on that there's players on that pitch that you do not expect performances like that from. Tom Curry has never performed this poorly in his entire career, yeah, yeah. As he has in this tournament, and for me, that is enough of a red flag, is enough of an alarm to say something fundamentally is wrong. If Tom Curry is not performing and not putting in. If you're not getting at least a seven out of ten from Tom Curry, there's something wrong. Something is fundamentally wrong. If Maro Atoje is unable to go 80 minutes, something is fundamentally wrong. If George Ford looks like he doesn't know what to do tactic, something is fundamentally wrong. Because you you're the the what makes these players these players is it is being stripped away from them at the moment. Um ultimately there's gonna have to be some change for the Italy side because this team as it is today can't take the field in Rome. Because if they lose in Rome, let's be honest, they're not winning in Paris. They lose in Rome and they go into Paris off the back of three big losses, they're going to get murdered. Um it already looks pretty bleak for that game now. I mean going back to the optimism we had before this tournament, night and day. Night and day. Um, I think they need to look at some fairly fundamental shifts. I think um I would be inclined to bring in if it as if he's fit, I would bring in Furbank. Um because and I like Freddie Stewart, and I think he's been brilliant in the Prem, and I think he's massively worked on his game and improved in a in a really fundamental way this season. But he's not he's not showing up in an English shirt in this tournament, and ultimately there is a question as to whether he's got a test match quality, and at the moment he seems to be answering that himself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

He's you know it's back to uh when Freddie Stewart got dropped the first time. It's it's those sort of performances again, isn't it?

What Ireland Did Right

SPEAKER_02 27:42

It's the same sort of problems again, and I felt bad for him getting hooked because actually I think I would have hooked George Ford for Marcus Smith, yeah, given the option at that point. I think Marcus Smith at 10 was actually the better option to go for. Um, but you can't start Marcus Smith at fullback, I don't think, really, if there's if there's if Furterbank's still an option. Um and I think you probably have to find some other alternatives as well to get into that into that shirt. Probably someone like a Joe Carpenter, um, who's can bring a bit more of he's got the ability to bring that kind of Mike Brown level of energy, but also has got a really you know, he he's got an attacking game that is probably kind of akin more to Marcus Smith at fullback as well. Yeah with his feet and his pace. Um I think you've got to stick or twist on the centres now, and you've I suspect they've probably gonna have to just go with a Jomo and Lawrence. I don't think they can afford to put Freeman back there, and I don't think I don't think Ding will's bringing enough at the moment in this tournament to to maintain his his position at that team. Well, there's there's definitely not there's definitely not an argument to say that he doesn't deserve to be untouched by rotation. That's that's for sure. I I I think I I would probably be inclined to put a Jomo and Lawrence there. Um you could maybe even make the argument for Seb Atkinson if you need someone with a bit more ball carrying ability.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I'd like to see Seb Atkinson in there.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Fundamentally, we're not we're not carrying the ball. We we don't we're not making ground. I think you have to bring Charler Cunning himself back in. I think this um going back to this having just sevens in the back row, I don't think it's working. They need some ball carrying ability. What they've lost in Tom Willis is now looking like a real hole in that team, and Ben L the best of the world can't do it himself. And Henry Pollock, I'm sorry to say, didn't it's not his prove himself to be a starting test match player at this point. You know, he may well be at one point, but at the moment he wasn't a starting test match player.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

No, yeah, so I'm not gonna sit here and say he looked like that on the deck, although I do think he was one of the few players who I think did put the effort level in, it's just whether it was directed in the right parts of the pitch, is the question mark. Um I I I think the entirety of England rugby needs to be focused on where do we find that big ball carrying eight. And unfortunately, for some reason we can't pick them when they're in France, because Tom Willis is the obvious answer. Uh, but it's really starting to expose how that is a huge, huge gaping issue with English back rowers we have at the moment because there really aren't any big Alfie Barbary, maybe like we need to start thinking outside the box, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Uh maybe, but I don't see Barbary as a test match player. Um, you need someone you can throw up at the line out as well, ultimately. Yeah, um true. You need to be able to have that option. I think you're probably looking more like can we develop someone like uh Zach Carrick Quinn's as a project for the future?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

What about Tom Pearson at Saints? Could he transfer to an eight shirt? I've I've often wondered.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Um or maybe you could just have him as a as a flanker and keep Earl at eight, um, but have Tom Pearson there as someone who can play that role um around the park. Maybe maybe that is the answer to someone like that, but at the moment the balance is off.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Um or do we go back to having a kind of second row six hybrid in the six shirt and put Alex Coles at six um just for the life of it?

SPEAKER_02 31:02

You could, but again, you need I you need a line out option, but you I do I think we just need someone who is the carrier in traffic, and I think that's where Cunningham South has got to be it for me at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

And again, there's a reason there must be a reason why it's not getting picked, um, but just from an outsider's perspective, he I think he's the only player who can feel that need at the moment. Yeah, at this point in time, yeah. But I mean it's a real problem because at the moment you're asking Bern Earl to do a lot of work that he's not necessarily equipped for, Ellis Genge do a lot of work that he is equipped for, but he can't do the whole thing. And he's also he's I mean, you saw that you probably saw his interview after the game. He doesn't look right at the moment either. And maybe there's a question mark about what's going on in this the environment at the moment. Um doesn't feel the same as it was 12 months ago, does it? Something feels off. Something feels off, you know. Um yeah, fundamentally, England have got a lot of soul searching to do over the next week, and Borthwick is going to have to he's gonna have to make some bold decisions, which he's proven himself capable of doing, and he's probably gonna have to get around the table with his coaches and draw out plan A, plan B, plan C, let's drill these into these players so that by the time we get to South Africa in summer, they know here's what we try first, if that's not working, here's what we try, if that's not working, here's what we try. Because at the moment it doesn't feel like the players know that.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Um where do you where do you stand on say England were to go and lose to Italy and then get decimated by France? Is Borthwick still safe in the job? Probably.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Um Probably at the moment. I mean safe is a relative term. Um my gut feel is unless England go on and don't win another game this year, my gut feel is Borthwick takes his team to the World Cup.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Um It would it would take a rather it would be a big decision to make to change coach at this stage in the World Cup cycle.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

It it would be a huge decision, and I also don't know who you'd necessarily bring in to that job.

Wales’ Green Shoots And Scotland’s Escape

SPEAKER_00 33:21

This is why I'm being slightly quiet about it, because I imagine people would start thinking, uh, Mr. Dowson over at Northampton is doing a pretty good job. And that's the type of rugby that everyone's shouting and screaming for.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

I look, I think Phil Dowson will be in line when Borthwick does go. Um if I think it could be someone who does maybe be maybe they groom and lead blackett for that role, but I think at the moment you probably can't change the coaching team. You certainly can't. I mean, yeah, I I don't think you can. I think at this point they need to they one of the problems they have is they haven't had a stable coaching team. So they need to they need to put that in place, but um they've got to get around the table and get some get some things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Straight. I realize we've we've rubbed it on there for about 20 minutes about how bad England were. Should we cover Ireland? Touch on how actually good Ireland were. Um yeah, they were phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah, phenomenal, I thought. Um they looked like a team that had absolutely nailed the emotional preparation for a match like this. Yeah, um, absolutely put my hands uh hands up to say I misjudged the capabilities of this island team, and um, I think Andy Farrell has got to take all the plaudits for getting this this team in a position to pull up this performance off the back of the last two weeks. Um you know, there's a lot of players play. I mean, Stuart McCloskey at the start of the tournament, I had him in my fantasy team because I thought he was underpriced. Last two weeks it's been fairly anonymous. He was every bit the player I thought he was at the start of the tournament this week. Absolutely. She was phenomenal. Um Balakoon, just rapid a rapid and also rewards it's a coach, it's the rewarding the coach for a bold selection when it's not necessarily um in the DNA to do that. Um, he was phenomenal. I thought um Tommy O'Brien was came up quite early for um James Lowe. James Lowe, get it right this time. Um, was I thought he was excellent. Uh Crowley, I thought absolutely justified his position, really assured at 10.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

There's your answer to the 10 debate uh Island fans. Yeah, I'm sure you've all figured that out for yourselves.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah, 100%. Uh Dan Sheehan put his best performance at the tournament. Uh Joe McCarthy was everywhere, both sides of the ball. The break he made was terrifying. I mean, by that point, we were I think we were all fairly sure the game was going in one direction, but um, you know, that just felt like the real icy on the cake when he when he started the ball and made the break from the zone 22.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Um, Type Byrne, yeah, best performance I've seen from him since the Lions tour. Uh Kevin Doris, phenomenal, Josh Van der Fliffer, and ultimately it all centred down on James James Gibson Park, who was world class. World, world, world class. Absolutely. Pulled out one of those performances that that remind people why for a long time he's been held in the same plethora as Antoine Dupont.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, yeah. It was definitely uh one of it was a reminder about why he was always kind of the absolute nailed-on lion starter pick, yeah, and things like that. It's just those performances where he pulls out we kind of saw it a bit last week where he came off the bench and really kind of dragged Ireland by himself in that game. I think he he steered Ireland from the start of this one superbly. And uh all credit to him, really.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Ruthless, ruthless, ruthless performance from from him and the whole island team. I mean, scoring that tap penalty um just absolutely absolutely just gutted England at that point because I think they've been sort of threatening to get into the game and Arlene go down the other end of the pitch and get that and and score. I mean, their ability to score at the right time as well, you know, after Piardi goes off injured, yeah, they they then score. So it's just the point when England have had the chance to to take a breath and have a have a chat and reset themselves, they score, scoring right after half time when they England would have been trying to uh reset and and go again, you know. Just they just kept scoring at times that just gutted any semblance of momentum, you know. Obviously, because we England scored, Dingles obviously dotted down right on the stroke of half time. So you're suddenly thinking, right, terrible half, 22-7, but the comeback's not impossible. They just come out all guns blazing, just Dan Sheehan going over. You go, no, it's not happening. It's not happening. Game's gone, game's gone. Um, so absolute ruthless, ruthless performance from Ireland, and to do that at Twickenham is beyond impressive. I mean, I think it's the second biggest win in the modern era after the France game from a few years ago. Yeah, um, I I mean was devastated watching this, devastated to be watching that performance. But you have got to tip your hat to what is what was a phenomenal, phenomenal performance of mind. Absolutely belying, you know, any kind of commentary on on where they are as a team, you know. Yeah, reports of reports of the death of Irish rugby were were premature.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah, who who said stuff like that? Like idiots, idiot, idiot podcasters have done what they're talking about. Yeah, not not the greatest rubber stamping into our credentials, that one. Um, we're an honest pod and we're a humble pod, and we're happy to admit when we're wrong.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

No, we've got to take our licks on that one. Yeah, and we were absolutely wrong about that Irish team, and it looks like we were quite wrong about this English team.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

It certainly seems that way. Um I think I think that's quite enough about this fixture, Rory. I don't know about you, but uh the less I dwell on it, the better for my own mental health. Uh let's move on to Wales versus Scotland. Now, I think I'll I'll set my stool out early. If I was a Welsh fan, I would be on one hand gutted to have not won this game, but on the other hand, actually really happy with finally seeing a Wales performance that had real signs of positivity and growth and something to cling on to.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yeah, I think that's I think that's a fair assessment. Um I think this was a good matchup for this Welsh team. Yeah. I would say that I think the Scottish level of physicality in their team is not high. Um and this was a good matchup for a Welsh team that that is lacking top-end physicality. But take nothing away from the effort and commitment of of that Welsh performance. Um you know, I think you're right, you know, I'd be gutted if I were them to not have come away with a win there because I thought they were for probably about an hour a better team.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

Yeah.

France’s Ruthless System And Italy’s Rise

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Um 50 50 minutes an hour. Um they absolutely tackled our demons. I mean, some of the some players who've um stepped up at this, you know, in the Welsh, or maybe not done what what they could have done in a Welsh shirt to to drag this team by the by the scruff of the neck, but people like Dewey Lake, I thought were monumental. Um I thought Daf Jenkins looked like the the Tullock that he we thought he might be when he was um Wainwright, brilliant. Um James Botham came on early for Plumtree. You know, when Botham came through, I thought he looked a real, real talent. He's sort of been to an extent in the wilderness for for a lot of his Welsh career. I thought he was phenomenal in this game, just everywhere. Um Ryan Elias, when he came off for Dwee Lake, was great. Um Costello at 10, excellent, you know, I'd say a bit of a maligned man in a Welsh shirt. Actually, I just thought he was excellent. Um Thomas Williams looked like the leader that he's capable of being in this team. Um, and they scored a couple of really nice tries. Rhys Carey's try was was really well taken, you know. Uh it looked like a team that was coached. Josh Adams' tri looked like a team that was coached. Um, really well taken again, you know, not like elaborate, not intricate, but just well coached, well-drilled side. And actually, maybe it's just a case of more time in the trading paddock, more time under Steve Tandy, more time with that group of coaches. You know, you will start to see improvements. So, what what they look like in two weeks, who knows? But you know, absolutely signs of life in that team. Um, Scotland exire relief, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah, one um got away with one on there, I think.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah, um, dragged through, probably by Finn Russell and taking advantage of some more uh some slips while whales that were a bit more to theme of last year. The Darcy Graham try, obviously. Yeah, that was an example with the the kick from the kickoff. That that was a death knell, I think, for for them after scoring earning three points.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

It's it's a tricky one that because obviously uh you have to credit Finn Russell's and Darcy Graham's kind of one one being on the same page to the extent they were and to be able to execute that. But is is it unforgivable from a Wales perspective to not react to that quicker?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

It's it's just basic errors. It's basic errors, which is what what Wales have been plagued with the last couple of years, just absolutely plagued with making basic errors that you you can't make it in top-level international rugby, and that is that will ultimately always be their demise until they can stamp that out of the game because the great Welsh sides of the 21st century were the ones that were so error-free it was it was frustrating as an opposition fan because you never felt like they gave you an in. Um, and until get back to something like that, they're going to struggle. Um, ultimately, I think this game sort of hinged on Finn Russell turning it on and being the player who's capable of being in that Scotland shirt, yeah. Um, realistically, outside of that, I mean Tui Pilotto I thought was good. Um, Carl Stane another good game. Black King on probably had a good game, I'd say. Yeah, yeah. But um Scotland pack struggled.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

I'd say the the pack was definitely second best uh to the watchback. And uh I thought I don't know if you mentioned at the start, but I thought Alex Mann was really good for Wales. I think he had some big turnovers. Uh and you and you did say Wayne Wright, but I think him, as we said in the in the game, his ball carrying was a big part of what kept Wales going forwards. And I think that that's definitely something that they should be looking to build on. Yeah, I I I completely agree with everything you said.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Um I just I would if if I if I was if I was Scotland, I would be very relieved and I would be trying to work out how we can get more impact from from the pack. I mean, I know that they lost a couple of players and they lost Dempsey and Ritchie um and uh Ewan Ashman, but it wasn't good enough from the pack. They were absolutely outmusled by a Welsh pack, which lesby frank has been outmuscled by you know an England pack. Well, been outmuscled by some packs on who on paper are more inferior than the Scotland ones. So um they've got a bit of soul searching to do, probably for for some tough tests to come because they are if their pack performs like that against France, they have got no hope.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah, well, I agree. I think most teams have no hope against that French team at the moment. Um yeah, I could be I I think yeah, Wales Scotland. It's is a side relief for Scotland. Some shoots of positivity for Wales for once. Um, but hey, at least we've got a week's break, maybe Wales, as you say, another couple of weeks on the training paddock.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Uh yeah, look, this was a genuinely exciting match to watch, right? Yeah, yeah, it was a great game. Great game. Absolutely nail biting. I I really enjoyed watching this one. Admittedly, by this point, I'd been in the pub since half eleven, so I'd I would I'd have probably enjoyed anything, but yeah, um it lifted your spirits your spirits after the English game. Yeah, absolutely, because I think you know the great thing about this tournament is that results aren't certain. Sometimes you get games like this where right to the end you're thinking, Well, as you're gonna do this, they're actually gonna do this, and you think, God, I'd love to be in Cardiff tonight.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Yeah, imagine the scenes if they had pulled it off.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Yeah, yeah. But you know, it's they've got they've got something to hang their hat on now. That's a performance to hang their hat on. Yeah, um, and you know, they go into their last two weeks, they've got Ireland on the Friday, uh, in Dublin, which will be tough, particularly if I don't pull up performance like this, but they've got something to hang their hat on to say that's the level of performance we've got, and then they've got an Italy game which looks more winnable now.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Um, yeah, and you know, could uh could could lead to a uh wooden spoon-off with an England team, maybe. Who knows? Well, let's not rule that out, yeah. Absolutely. I I'm certainly not ruling that out. Uh okay, well, let's move on to the the next game. Uh France versus Italy, the one we build in our predictions for being really close and being a good game. It was it was a good game. It definitely was a good game. It was a good game. Um but I think what we saw on display there was well the ruthless. The the winners of this tournament are quite clearly um being ruthless and kind of on both sides of the ball, like their attacking game as well as their defensive game, it's just it's it's just where you'd want your national team to be at at this point. Uh and unfortunately it's the French side that is in that position.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yeah, a hundred percent. Um they but we're talking, we don't think there's a lot of weaknesses in this side, they didn't look any in this one. I mean, honestly, Italy didn't do a lot wrong in this game. No, I sound like Italy would generally put the performance that I think would have given most tier one nations a good go and would have beaten a fair few of them.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Um I thought my notes were that Italy went toe-to-toe with France in nearly every part of the game except from being clinical and in the red zone. That was literally the only difference.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Look, when when they're missing volleys and they're going straight to the outside centre, who then runs an Arkham runs 60 metres up the pitch, it's not your day, you know. Yeah, and and that looks like luck, and there's obviously a big slice of luck in it, because it literally was a sliced kick, just comes with they're they're just in motion, moving forwards. You know, Gaetan's not on his heels. That ball that ball spoons off of Beer Beret, yeah, and he's not on his heels, he's already in motion, he sees it, he reads it, he picks it up, and he and he's already picked out his gap and he's gliding through. They're just constantly moving and looking for the option, and it's just it looks impossible to defend, um, as pretty much as it proved in this one. Because Italy actually defended really, really well right up to the point until France scored. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, it was one point they were defending so well and they've gone through really good defensive phases, and then all of a sudden Miyafu comes on a crashing line and you go, Well, that's just physics, isn't it? Yeah, physics, you can't stop in there.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah, yeah, yes. Uh that uh immovable object versus an unstoppable force. Yeah, uh, unfortunately, Miafu is a bigger immovable object than the unstoppable force that Italy were able to put on the line. Um, and I think he would have scored against a bulldozer there for sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Um really well. I mean, they were great. The breakdown Zuliani was phenomenal at the breakdown, yeah. Still some really good ball. Um, I thought Capuazzo looked great at the fullback. I thought Menancello was brilliant. Yeah, ball carrying on the line made great ground. I thought Marion was brilliant as well at 12. You know, they're they're obviously gonna need there was a question mark of what happened if Brex wasn't or Brex or Menancello weren't available. I think Marion's stepping up as another really good option in the centres there. Yeah, um a dogwee when it came on looked really lively. Garbeese looked good, Fusco looked good, the the pack in general, really really strong. Um, went really well at scrum time, gave the France real problems at scrum time. Yeah, um and then lost.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Yeah, uh what was an anti-climax? Um but and I went uh you also put into context that this is a French team that lost their 10 kind of last minute, where Jalabert was replaced by Ramos stepping into the 10 shirt and Sogbe going into fullback. I I think it's just signs of exactly where France are that they can have that sort of disruption and it almost be seamless. And you wouldn't look like a problem to them, does it? You wouldn't think there'd be any changes last minute to that team. Like it's it's it's ominous when a team is that in sync and not undonsong, regardless who's in what shirt.

Team Of The Week Picks

SPEAKER_02 49:34

I think they they just because their skill set is so good, it's so contrary to having watched England the the day before. The skill set is so good, and because they're constantly in motion, it never looks like they're putting in loads of effort, but they're they're just constantly moving and making options and being an option and taking options. They it it just looks seamless because it's like it's like perfect chaos in action. But really, all they're doing is just taking four or five very good classical rugby options and just applying them constantly all the time, and you can't defend everything, yeah. You just can't. Um I I watched I watched that very concerned about the last game of the of the tournament for us, um, and I watched it very concerned about the next game of the tournament for us because I thought that that Italy side in the strength of the last three weeks is performing much better than England. Yes, um, and I don't think England are gonna get the upper hand at scrum time. I think Zamboni is perfectly capable of dismantling any line out, and the back line looks much more impactful than almost any other back line in the tournament. You know, Melencello can do things that pretty much no other back in the tournament can do at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Yeah, as it stands, Melencello is going to have a field day against that England side unless something changes drastically. Um, so get them in your fantasy teams, people. Um, although I imagine he probably is in most already. Um, be mad not to have it. Mad not to have it.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Um they were excellent. I don't know. It's not a lot you can analyze this because you know, as soon as DuPont booted the ball and be over a just tore past Kapawat, so you go, that's what I mean. Ultimately, there is there there are certain immutable facts in life as there are in rugby, and bigger, faster, stronger team who doesn't make mistakes will win a game, and it doesn't matter how much effort you put in sometimes. And Italy absolutely ran their soft, yeah, and they were brilliant for large periods, and they attacked really well and they put France under real pressure at times, and in the end, it didn't make a blind bit of difference because you can't you you can't really compete with what France are doing at the moment, and I I don't there's not really another team that can outside of South Africa, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

I I yeah, I agree. I I don't see another team doing what France are doing at the moment, and I think and I think as we said at the start, it's a it's a team designed to beat South Africa, and they're they're just using the Six Nations as the tournament to hone and refine that uh in the hope to be able to put that on on the field against South Africa when they next get the opportunity to and put put right the wrongs there.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yeah, very rare to see a squad so good that they can afford to use the Six Nations as a practice. Yeah, you know, don't see that often. And this is I mean the the last the last team I think that was so good they could they could use the Six Nations as a as an arena practice was probably England 2003. That's the last squad I think that was so much better than everyone else in the in the tournament that they could do that. I don't think anyone's been this.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Or the red roses.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Or the red roses, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Yeah, I mean, yeah, men's rugby, sure. Yeah, just say yes, uh yeah, it's it's ominous, but you know, we we just have to enjoy it for what it is, and you know the fact that we get to watch France play some really beautiful rugby, you got you've got to take the the joy in that um and just accept that when we go into that final weekend and that final game, just you know, get get the hard hats on and just accept accept the inevitable.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Um go to France and enjoy it, go and enjoy it in France in a in a bar with French people because that'll be the only way for an English person to enjoy that game. Drink some Van Rouge and you know, enjoy the atmosphere because they are gonna be loving it. Yeah, yeah. And don't watch it in English.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Oh dear Rory.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

How how the course of this pod has changed to just three weeks from optimism to just sorry Lisa, we're a bit down this week, but it's you know, I live and die by uh by sport sport in uh the roller coaster that is sporting emotion, and uh unfortunately this week it's really got me got me down.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Yeah, it turns out just the fickle sport of rugby has such a huge impact on our mental well-being and our positivity and outlook of life. Uh you know, I'm sure I'll bounce back eventually. Uh, should we do a quick team of the week, Rory? If you've got one, yeah, go on. Why not? Why not? Uh hit me with your front row.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

I went Reese Carey, Julian Marchands, although I was tempted by Dowie Lake, but I went Marchand in the end, and Ferrari.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Uh yeah, so I did the same except I did good Dowie Lake.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Um I just thought I won't argue with Dowie Lake. I I thought it was great. Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, happy to concede that one.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

No arguments there. Nice and easy, front row, and it it's kind of turning into the form front row of the tournament that one. Ferrari's been a bit of a revelation, really. It's been phenomenal. And like and Fischetti would have been a perfectly good choice in this team as well. And another solid, great performance from him. Uh you think they're missing Riccione as well, and um God is the hooker, Lucchese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they they haven't they are missing players, which is the the the scary thought that Italy aren't even at their strongest, and yet they've probably been the strongest pack so far. Uh second row, Rory, who have you got?

SPEAKER_02 55:02

I mean Big Joe McCarthy and Miafu.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Hard not to agree, and and I am gonna agree because those two probably were these the standout logs. It's uh Miafu was an absolute wrecking ball um around the pitch, and McCarthy was an absolute wrecking ball in any close quarters bit of rugby and uh really uh really took it to the England Mall. So, as much as I I'd like to create debate around a team of the week, it's really hard to disagree with that one as well. Uh back row, who's your six? Seven and eight, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Uh I went Tike Burn at six, no debates there. No debates possibly a debate on this one. I went I actually went to Zuliani um because I thought oh I mean Van der Fleer was great. Um I think Alex Mann's a really good shout. I thought he was very good. I think and I think Jagoux was brilliant in this game as well. But I thought Zuliani, there's there was one intercept and break, he disrupted French um breakdown in a way that no one else has really been able to in this tournament. I thought he was I thought he was absolutely manful in this performance. Um so just as a I won't argue with you if you've got a an alternative, but I think on this game I'm just gonna have to give a tip of the hat to Zuliani who I think's been had a great tournament.

Next Gen U18 Academy: Talent Pipeline

SPEAKER_00 56:18

So I I was on a coin flip between Zuliani and Van der Fleer, and I landed on Van der Fleer just because I think I have quite a few vivid memories of that red scrum cap just being an absolute thorn in defence for Ireland, and I think he he was great, he encapsulated the physicality and the mentality that that Irish team took and put and imposed itself on England. Uh, but I I agree Zuliani absolutely was a thorn in the side of that French team. Uh so I'm happy either way. Uh and you're eight? And Doris. Yeah, I I because I think I think the argument this week would have been between Doris and Jelange uh or Wainwright. Uh I mean I I'm gonna actually I'm gonna change because I was gonna agree with you and go Doris, but I've I'm gonna change my I'm gonna go Wainwright just because I think he was a huge reason why that Welsh team really should have won that game.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

He was excellent. Yeah, he was absolutely excellent. Um, and what put in one of those performances that really stirs the soul if you're a fan. But yeah, for me, Doris was just Yeah, I just I think I don't want to give too much.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

The more I talk about Ireland, the more annoyed I get again. So I'm trying to be positive and harness the court of Welshness I have inside me and try and put some positivity on the Welsh stuff rather than moan about England anymore. But yes, Calen Doris was also phenomenal. Uh any debate over the nine, Rory? I I'm assuming it's an Irish person.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Yeah, it's Gibson Park.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

I mean DePont I thought was excellent in this game, but um Gibson Park was just unplayable. Can't look past Gibson Park in this game. Um yeah, just the absolute Gibson Park show, really. Uh and your ten. Finn Russell just dragged Scotland over the line of this one. Yeah, he was the difference maker. He's he's what basically gave Scotland the win, I feel, in that game. I think I think the rest of the Scotland side probably there's not many of them who are up for the debate, even though Scotland won their game. Finn Russell's the only one who I kind of feel comes into the team of the week discussion. Uh centres. Uh McCloskey and Gayaton for me. McCloskey, absolutely 100%. Uh and I I went Melencello, but I can see why you went Gayaton. Uh I'm just a huge Menoncello.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

I want to get Menoncello, but I was really like I'm picking a lot of Italy players when Scott when uh France had beaten them by 25 points. True. So and I thought Gaeton was was excellent in the game. Obviously, he'd scored a scored a trolley on, made that massive break. You know, he was constantly, constantly, you know, good on the ball. Just good in defence.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

Yeah, this just gets me annoyed because France have Deporte, Moafana, Gayaton, Brauberet, um Fiku, like they're just not fair. Who are your wingers? Uh Beep Beep and Balakoon. Still makes me laugh every time Le Beat Beep. Yeah. Uh I agree. I think I think Le Beep Beep, Balakun. I was almost tempted to go O'Brien because I think the way he came off the bench.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Yeah, I thought Tommy Brian, Tommy O'Brien nearly got in there, but then then I thought back to Leb Beep, absolutely skinning Capozzo. I thought, yeah, I'm just gonna pick that out, aren't I? Oh, I do like Le Beat Beep.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Uh and your fullback.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Uh did think about Capootto for this one because I thought he was actually very, very good for Italy. Um, I thought Osborne was very good for Ireland as well. I said I've always mentioned Kinghorn, I thought I had a good game. Um, but I to Sogby for me was just great in this game. Yeah. The fact that he stepped in there at last minute and performed that well. I think it's excellent.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

I went at the Sogby as well. Uh so it's that context of that he was shifted there, uh, kind of final moments. It's not his I know he can play there and has played there, uh, but it's not his natural position, and he, you know, Italy put in a real strong performance, and no matter what team you are, if you don't have someone who's doing a really good job at the fullback, you could be exposed, and Italy struggled to expose France completely. So you have to give Atis Hogby a lot of credit there. So completely in agreement. Um I have earmarked predictions here, but I appreciate next week is rest week.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Um we give ourselves the opportunity to uh take some stock before we start making too many emotional predictions and I th I think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

I think so. Um let's take some stock and let's change gear slightly, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Yeah, to give us um give us the breakdown of the next gen.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna shift uh our attention to positive future of English rugby. And I think it's it's something that I think Prem Rugby is starting to get and I think they're starting to realise. But I think one of the real potential growth parts of English rugby is focusing on this next gen competition. Because I think if you look on social media, probably one of the in uh if you look at social media in a very rugby-centric view, schools rugby and university rugby are probably the most popular parts or the quickest growing parts of social media and rugby at the moment. And I think next gen could dovetail into that perfectly, because obviously the schools feed into the academies, the academies work with universities, there is a real nice kind of partnership that can be formed there to really drive kind of almost a social media strategy to build the future of the game by finding the superstars of tomorrow, showcasing them and kind of giving them a bit of a platform that's not really been there before. And I think that the finals day that they did this Sunday, where which is the culmination of nine rounds of each Prem Rugby Academy plus Yorkshire, who have an academy as well, um playing each other all on the same day and kind of vying for their final positions because it's been a league system this year, and uh I'd have thought let's just congratulate the this one, the standard of rugby on the day was brilliant. I thought each team from bottom to the top was fantastic and really put on some great, great rugby. Um I think the fact that Prem Rugby actually, compared to last year, brought in commentators to commentate on the game. They actually streamed it live on YouTube, which was great. Um, they had some quite I think for each game they had someone from the academy, so a player who wasn't available or someone who's been in the academy in the past come along who were able to talk about the players playing so that you could get a bit of insight. There were some interesting kind of backstories, a few choice words, a bit of a few swears here and there, you know, they're not media trained bunch, but you know, it made for some entertainment. Um, and I I think there's something there, and I I I just want to congratulate Prem Rugby for doing it. Uh the Academies for doing what they can, and I think I've seen a real change this year compared to last season, where like I felt like I was the only one talking about the Academy League on kind of my socials. The clubs have been talking about it this year, people are getting behind it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

Um I've seen a lot of stuff. I mean, obviously, I I follow Gloucester and I've seen I've seen them talk, you know, I know Gloucester's under 18s are invine for the top of the top of the league, but they had some good results by the looks of it. And um I thought uh yeah, throughout the season I've been able to sort of track results and team sheets and all that kind of thing. Um were there any have you have you noticed the the quality of the players themselves shifting dramatically? Or how would you feel that the standard of player is is bearing up?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

I think the standard of players bearing up, but there's definitely some individuals that I'll try I'll pull out mainly from across the season, uh as well as the finals day. But I think the standard of coaching seems to be a step up because I mean I remember last year, because last year I I I went to King's home and watched each of those games, and it was quite obvious the difference between the teams at the bottom versus the teams at the top. But this year, when I was watching the games that I could watch, um some of the teams from last year, so like Newcastle, for example, last year, looked like a quite a disconnected group of youngsters who probably it didn't feel like they were singing off the same page. This year, the Newcastle Red Bulls Academy team were excellent and they like there's an identity there. And I think each team almost seems that there's obviously been some sort of shift change that the clubs have realizing they need to invest in their academies and the coaching is obviously having an impact. Obvious, obvious stuff. Um and I think one of the things I is a general across the board, the skills of the players coming through is definitely stepping up. I think there's there's definitely no skills are definitely going up, but I think there's certain teams that are focusing on certain different skill sets. There are some teams that are seem to be very focused on juéjouet, ball handling skills, just kind of being able to think and kind of play heads-up rugby. There's some teams where they are being so well coached and well taught on kind of the art of the set piece and the more close quarters parts of the game, uh, and they're almost like choking other teams out of a game and being able to like it's an interesting difference between the two, and it it it does kind of line up with kind of the senior teams, so it almost makes sense that they're the senior teams. So can I take some guesses? Set piece teams, Bath, Leicester, yeah. Well, uh you just have to look at like the top scorers for those teams, and they're all hookers and forwards, because they're scoring lots of tries off the back of Mules, lots of pick and go. You look at the likes of Bristol Bears, Jue, Jouet, Jouet, Jouet, Jouet, Jouay, Northampton Saints, like their top scorers are wingers and centres, scram halves, etc. etc. etc. So it's interesting that this whole DNA thing and teams that are trying to build a future, they they are. I I think part of it is why the coaching is so good, it's because they're using the model of their seat the their first team, and it's obviously a proven model that's working for their first team. And I think that's that's what we're seeing. Um and I think ultimately it was just a really like good day.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Uh let me try and pull out I saw our old um podcast uh stable mate Mark Williams was there with Select 15.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Yes, he was there. So they they pulled out a team because obviously they There's 11 teams in the competition, so when it comes to the files, they're where each team plays each other. The bottom team played a divisional invitational team. That uh Mark Williams was one of the coaches last year they invited RGC, didn't they? The Welsh team. They did, they did. Um and I I I thought they fronted up quite well actually and gave Yorkshire a really good game, which I think is a good testament to like the county system, which uh Mark is very much a part of. Um but obviously I've been tracking this competition throughout the entire season, and kind of like I've been building uh a picture in my head about the players who seem to be regularly standing up and really performing. So I'm gonna give you a list of players who I think potentially could be names that obviously give me some names and clubs, David. Names and clubs. So Sam Marshall, the fly half from Harlequins, looks like a genuine uh prospect in the 10 shirt. His game management, his place kicking, um very, very good, very good level for someone his age. Um, so he's definitely one to watch. Casper Reeves and Luke Spring 8 of Bristol Bears and Harlequins respectively, they seem to be the wingers to watch from this year's competition. Um obviously Charlie Tomani from Northampton Saints is another one to watch, but he's had quite a quiet season by his standards. So um we'll see we'll see how that goes. Uh obviously, from another Saints perspective, I think Will Heiffer is uh I think he's the son of Ali Heffer or Hefa. He's been absolutely tearing up trees for Northampton this year, so I think he's one to watch, and he's kind of one of these new hybrid back row centres that's in existence, apparently, it seems. Uh few others. So top try scorer this year was a Saracens hooker. So obviously Saracens are looking to build on a quite a strong set piece. So Tiani Alone, he scored 10 tries this season, which considering you play eight games, that's a pretty good, pretty good return. Uh Freddie Beasley at Bath, he got eight tries. Uh Exeter have a number of really skillful players. I don't know if you've seen the social media clip going round of kind of them doing some really good JUA stuff against the Northampton Saints team on the finals day. Uh, they've got a number of really good players uh who are probably worth keeping an eye on. Uh I'm trying I'm gonna try and give like a each club a little bit of a shout. Uh so X Alfie John's X is a pretty good player, Harry Westlake there wants to watch Gloucester Rackat Clarkson, who's kind of a lockback rower. He looks like a real real good player. And Sam Bryant, a prop you've got um, he's one to watch. I think he's already kind of on England under 18 radar. So definitely um another one, and Teddy Smith Milne, the hooker, looked pretty decent as well, I'd say. So there's definitely Gloucester fans. Gloucester certainly need the hookers. Harlequins have already cut touched on a couple for them with Springer and uh Marshall. Leicester. So one thing I didn't realise last year. So what I tipped last year was a guy called Finn Charles. I didn't realise he was under 17 playing last year, so he's had another year of it. Uh he carries the ball really strongly, he's like he's a lock back rower again. He he does some really good job. And there was there's a winger who scored an absolute worldly 80-minute uh 80 metre Freddie Lomas. Freddie Lomas. Uh he looks pretty pretty handy. Red Bulls wise. So the one who really impressed me on the finals day was Jack Nesbitt. He nearly got a hat trick, but he was everywhere. And um he looks like one to watch. Uh maybe like a Guy Pepper kind of regen, that sort of player. He's a back row that's a very good thing. I'm just gonna hang on to this one. Yeah, hopefully to hang on to this one. And I thought their props were really good as well. Uh, I think it was Miles Order and Josh Durant. They were they were good ball skills for props. Touched on Northampton sales, Sam Bryant, not Sam Bryant, no, Will Baston. Uh their scrum half was getting quite a lot of uh props from kind of the other commentators and stuff there. He's got kind of a bit of a raffy quirk around him, so you know that's no bad comparison. And they got another set of identical twins coming through in the Jax brothers. So excellent. Who doesn't like a twin set? We love a twin set. Saracen's, I've said a load. So Saracens actually have a really good bunch. So Henry Hodgson, who's I believe Charlie Hodgson's son, he's coming through at fly half. So it's it's always interesting to see some of these names come through in a bit of a bit of a bit of a kind of continuation. Uh and who's so PJ Ludlow, back row, who's been really good this season as well. There's a few, there's a few really good names of the Saras as well. And Yorkshire, a disappointing competition for them, really, because they've kind of been a bit of the whipping boys. Obviously, Calen Umanger, very famous rugby name. He's kind of been there, he's their fly half. Uh and Lewis Jalal, who's a winger of theirs, who's kind of scored quite a few tries. He's in the England.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Yeah. Yorkshire obviously got a difficulty that they don't have yeah the ties and the DNA that other teams do. So I sympathise that their their setup's a bit trickier.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

Well, and even even this season, so they had a centre called Voytek Nevicky. Uh he's moved to Sail Sharks through the through the season. I think I think it's because to go to university. Um but like I think players when they're at Yorkshire Academy, they've always got one eye on kind of other options. Uh so it does make the backdrop a little bit trickier. So hopefully that's the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Yeah, I'd recommend anyone who's interested in the Yorkshire obviously digging out the article, I think it was in the Telegraph talking about this and the Ian McGeakin's plan around this.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I think the headline from this section is the winner, like so the going into the finals today, everyone was expecting Bath to come out the overall winners, yeah, because they've kind of dominated the league. Um, well, basically through their set piece domination, and and some really good work in the backs. Like I think it'll be disingenuous to me to suggest that their backs haven't been very good because they have been. Um they've got a number of very so Declan Treacy, who's the brother of Connor Treacy, it might be the other way around, who's in the under-twenties at the moment. Uh, real handy uh center they've got and they've got some quite rapid wingers as well, and Max Hooper, their fly half, who is yes, you're right. Uh so uh but everyone was expecting Balf to win it, and then Bristol Bears, who have kind of really grown in this competition because they started quite weakly, uh, managed to get in and qualify as kind of second place on the final round of the competition, and they only went and bloody won it, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:25

Uh yeah, I saw that and they were down 19-7 at half time and came back and won it. Yeah, so huge result for them. And congratulations to the to the lads of the Bristol Cubs for uh for taking over the trophy.

Closing Thoughts And Future Hopes

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

Yeah, yeah, it was yeah, it was some some game, and I think that Bristol Bears crop has some real real talent. Um, I think Casper Wheeler, their hooker's one that really stands out to me as well. Uh, he looks like one to keep on, and there's their second rows Will Pap and Monty Wells. I think I saw one of them scoring a sort of 40 metre try or something recently. Well, Will Pap, he's done it a couple of times already. He's got some serious engine on him. He's got he's he's very much in the bears mould for a second row, a bit like a Joe Batley, who you kind of double double threat, ball in hand and in defence. Excellent. And a really good good uh set piece. So yeah, I think whistle stop. I try I can't give absolutely every player the credit they deserve. Um, and it's obviously it's a bittersweet moment for a lot of them because it's for a lot of them it might be the last time they get to represent a professional club at rugby because from now on that competition's done. It's you then go into the conversations of do you get offered these senior academy contracts, do you get offered the chance to be a professional rugby player or do you not? Uh and there'll be some some people who would have pulled on their club shirt for the last time, and it's always a bit of a bittersweet moment for some of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

Yeah, of course. But hopefully, uh hopefully those who uh want to continue with the with the career get either get the option in the academy or can take take one of the alternate paths in the university. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

I I think there are alternatives out there, so it's all good stuff, Rory. And uh I I look forward to following it again next year and then having this conversation this time next year, and then hopefully I'll be able to head down there and get to the game next time around as well. Um fingers crossed. Um, but yeah, that's the next gen for 2026, Rory covered and oh, I do I do like talk about the future of rugby. I feel a bit I feel it's what quite cathartic after that. A little bit of hope, David. Oh, just a little bit of hope, a little bit of hope. Um, but Rory, I think that's everything got on the agenda. Was there anything else you wanted to discuss at all? Or is it time for Rory's final thought?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

I think it's that time, David. If England put could pull out performance in their next game, it would save me a vast amount of money on Guinness.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:37

And on that note, people, we will bring this episode to a close. We've been Rux Balls and Overwolves. If you've enjoyed listening, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow. Uh, we'll be back again next week, hopefully, with a bit of optimism because you know, England aren't playing, so we're not gonna be sad. Terra