S2 Ep 28 - Prem Rugby Big Game Bonanza Weekend & The RMOB 20 Under-20

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Transcript

Welcome And Weekend Warm-Up

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Rux Moose and Over Mools. That's right, we're back again with another episode of the Fans Favourite Rugby Podcast, hosted as always by the fans favourite rugby podcast hosts. It's me, Dave, joined as ever by the ever-present Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Hello, hello, listener. Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I am very well, Rory. I'm very well. Had a lovely weekend and a bit of gallivanting around to the big city. You've been not the big smoke. But uh how about you, Rory? How are you? Because I know you've also been doing some gallivanting.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

But Gallivanting to the second smoke. Second smoke. Yeah. Good weekend. I mean, we'll get into the into the bones of the game, but a nice a nice day out. Um and in my absence, the Lions have sewn up top spot in the league. So we're going to the finals, David.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

To the finals, well, and that's uh with little to no input from their captain, it seems.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I mean, if anything, I'm a net negative.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Hey, I I still remember the story of your was it 80 metre dash to the line? Ooh, 85. 85 metre dash to the line. So you you know, give yourself a little bit of credit. I'm I'm I'm personally still well, two things. One, I'm still coming down from the high of you know, schmoozing in hospitality on the weekend at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. But also at Man V Fat yesterday, I was subject to a high tackle by a certain coach of the year uh who friend of friend of the pod to a degree. Uh nearly took me out to a degree. Pre pre-close line. Pre-clothesline. Uh yeah, he nearly took me out and I gave a touch rugby, and I thought I had a concussion for a while, but you know, I've pulled through, I passed the HIA and uh was able to see through my man v fat touch rugby event, uh despite gallantly, gallantly dealing with the injury.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

And did the prawn sandwiches in hospitality disturb your metrics this week? Oh, quite possibly.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Bloody pets playing up. So there is a chance the scale side of Man V Fat didn't go quite so well. But you know, you you win some, you lose some. You can't take you gotta take the rough with the smooth, Rory. You gotta take the rough of the smooth.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

So you in our in your return to Man V Fat so far, you've uh metaphorically lost your head, you've physically lost your head, and you haven't lost any weight.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

When you put it like that, it isn't the greatest advert for the program.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Well, it I don't know if it's the programme. It's not the greatest advert for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

No, no, no, no. I'm I'm blaming the program.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Um you advocate responsibility, this one.

Premiership Salary Cap Floor Debate

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely, completely stepping away from any sort of uh accountability for my own actions. Um you know, as any good human being would do. Uh but less about me, Rory. This isn't about me and my, you know, failings. Um we're here to talk rugby. We know this. The listener knows this, the listeners here, they don't want to hear about my uh uh inability to operate as a functionally healthy human being. They want to hear us talk about rugby. Uh so what we're gonna do, Rory, we're gonna talk a little bit about some new bits and bobs that have happened so far in the past week or so. We're gonna dig into round twelve of the Galagoprem, and then I'm gonna announce launch Roxmalls and Oval Balls 20 under 20 to watch. Um and anything else we fancy in between those pieces, Rory? Does that sound like a fantastic podcast for you to participate in? Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Oh, thank God. One of these days you're gonna say no to that, and I'm gonna feel real awkward. Um moving swiftly on. First news subject item for discussion. I think a little bit that came out this week was the talk around, you know, more around this Prem rugby structure in the future in this franchise model, la di da di da. This little tidbit was about bringing in a salary cap floor. Uh basically meaning any club that wishes to participate in the Prem going forward has to have a operating salary above a certain level. Uh my my feelings on this is basically it's around competitiveness, it's around making sure that there isn't ever going to be a whipping boy within this franchise league because franchise leagues don't work if there's a whipping boy. Um, and as far as I'm aware, Rory, I think the only club probably who's under the limit, which I think is being set at 5.4 million, may have been Newcastle, but obviously not all clubs fully document everything. Uh so is this a new story? Is this something we should be concerned about, optimistic about? How do you feel around this?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Um I I think in terms of what it what it means for the league moving forwards. I mean, you you've you touched on all the important issues. It basically stops a whipping boy profiting from the league as a whole without being competitive within it. It ensures a better competition. It also means everyone knows what their minimum turnover is gonna need to be to cover their cover their costs. You know, they can't um they know where they can't strip back in terms of uh uh there's no shoestring budget gonna happen here. No, um, and you're right. I mean, other than Newcastle, who have, you know, if we're being honest, have rather moved on from their financial troubles in quite quick succession. Yeah, I think everyone else is already, yeah, is already either around. I think the likes of Gloucester are probably paying around this now, or you're hitting the the top end of the cap now. Say the likes of Bath, who are in in let's say up the upper end of the dial.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

They've been audited as part of the process of being champions, and they were getting a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

I know, and it's not for me to say that the auditor was incredibly corrupt, but you know, but the auditor's partner now has a nice new set of Dyson air curling tongs. Um I don't know how many uh auditors for salaries in other leagues are going around in Rolls Royce with their sort of fists full of diamonds, but this one is.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Hey, uh all of these speculative accusations are on behalf of Rory and Rory alone. It's not groundbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It's unusual in British sport. It's not very usual in franchise leagues. It's a very American model. So yeah, but that you know they are pulling on the American model, and maybe that's not the worst thing to do. You know, maybe they need to learn some lessons from successful, profitable, rich leagues that are operating elsewhere and not sort of worry too much about um British sensibilities. There's a lot of um there's been a lot of stories pre and post the weekends uh results already talking about no relegation means dead rubbers and the death of the league and we've had no relegation for five years. I mean it's it's ludicrous. Suddenly they go to a franchise league and suddenly there's been at least two stories in the telegraph this week about how this uh the this franchise league's gonna lead to so many dead rubber games. You just think, right, the a sense of perspective, please. We're not talking immediately all just go go at this just so we can get some headlines.

Neutral Venue Semi-Finals Proposal

SPEAKER_01 7:45

I've seen some interesting articles in the newspapers uh this past week where it seems like rugby writers are determined to be negative about rugby in spite of anything positive going on. Um so maybe that's just um old school journalists. Old school journalists not feeling like they're being included in the way the gr move the sport's moving, perhaps. I think on a similar note in the kind of the news space um around kind of copying other leagues, there was also that talk around potentially moving the semi-finals to neutral venues, which yeah I know Bill Sweeney, I think it was who spoke about it, said like they've looked at the top 14, that's what they do, they make big events of it. I've seen some people in like forums and stuff kick back saying, Well, what's the point of having a top four then? Because there's no point playing for a top two to get a home home semi-final stuff. But what would be your feelings and thoughts on if uh semi-finals were to go to neutral venues, e.g. to Villa Park or a Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

I I understand the point of what people are saying in the comments around what's the point of having a top four. Um the difference is in in the top fourteen they have the um barrage at the end of the season, which is a basic, it's a it's a series of playoffs, you know, it's not just semi-final final like it is here, um, which is why their season seems to go on for 13 months of the year. Yeah. Um I I understand that, but I don't think you can dismiss this idea out of hand. Um yeah, it's tricky because what what I'd want to say is it's it's okay if you make sure the neutral venue is nearer to the or is the most logical one to the team that comes in, the home position as it is to now it is today. But obviously you have to plan these things much further in advance, so that's impossible to do.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Um, but if they genuinely think they can start filling big stadiums for semi-finals as well as the final, and you can take these around the country, such as you know, the Hill Dickinson in Evan to uh in Liverpool, Everton ground, yeah, where England are playing playing Fiji in Fiji's home match, yeah.

unknown 9:56

St.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

James's Park, um Heading Lee. Yeah, these are all like interesting options of things that you could you could do. Get a bumper crowd. Maybe it's split of the gate that changes depending on where you come in the league. I don't know.

Academy Insights And Talent Pathways

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Um that's an idea. That's an idea. Uh all I know is I I think it's definitely it's definitely gonna happen. I think people just need to get their heads around it because it's where the it's where the league's moving to. It's looking to it's looking for big blockbuster moments, it's looking for big blockbuster days because they are revenue makers and it's gonna happen. Uh so the sooner we can get our heads around it, I think better. But I think there is something that just how do you justify the current playoff system? Maybe that will change. Maybe we'll copy the barrage in top 14, and then the top two teams go through, and then it's third to sixth do this um playoff semi-final. Um, we'll see. We'll soon. I think the other bit I want to talk around Prem Rugby specifically, Rory, is they've released the Academy Insights report, uh, I think just today.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

A little bit of this. Um it's interesting reading. Yeah, it is interesting reading. There's been a bit of talk around moving towards drafts and things, but I think it's always interesting to see what the actual academy system as it sits today produces. Very pleased to see how many players Gloucester are producing. Um, bit less pleased to see how many of them are no longer playing for Gloucester.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, and then producing and not keeping, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah. Um, but it is it is interesting. I mean, you know, no great surprise how effective the London Irish Academy was as of when it existed. Sales Sharks Academy, very effective, Saracen's Academy, extremely effective, um, and coming out some really well on some other metrics as well. Worst Warriors Academy very effective.

Henry Pollock Joins Matchroom

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Um, yeah, I'm not surprised by that at all. Um I th I think I think the reading to that through that for me is I think there's a trend where the Academy system has been improving kind of block by block. Not necessarily year on year, but like in a three-year block and a three-year block, I think it has been improving step by step. And I think we're seeing that now, because this report was only up to 2024, and I would argue there's been a step change in academy progress within the last two years as well. So I I think it'll be really interesting reading, say, five years' time, what that report's saying. But in that report, there's lots to talk about the amount of investment that's going into it, how they're laying out what the structure of being an academy is, just clarifying the boundaries to the catchment areas. It's a really clear document for anyone who isn't sure about how academies work. Um, and it it's it's just attempting to really lay it all out to understand where players are coming from. It talks about the schools' partnership as well, which obviously is becoming quite a big thing. I think schools rugby is really on an upward trajectory in terms of popularity. Um, I think more and more people are taking interest in that, which if that carries on, the draft question could come even more into account because players who play at different schools can be at different academies. Um, same at universities. I think you see there's like Harlequin's players who play for the University of Bath, for example. Uh there's Gloucester players that play for the University of Bristol. But it's interesting how things could develop, but that's p that's kind of pie in the sky ten years down the line thinking, which obviously excites me as a fan of Academy Rugby and that sorts of stuff. But I think for anyone who is keen on Academy Rugby, it's worth a read. Now the final bit of news I want to discuss to you, Rory, is a bit of a bit of an opinion piece, maybe, a bit of a thought exercise. But it's around the assign the signing of Henry Pollock to Eddie Hearn's match room talent agency, or as Henry Pollock calls it, matchmaker. Um what does this signal for you in terms of Rugby going forwards and Eddie Hearn's very public um thinking around wanting to really increase profile earnings? Pollock specifically, and I'm guessing rugby is a wider picture.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Well, Eddie Hearn is no fool by any stretch. So you can say what you like about him and plenty of, but he does know what he's doing, and he does know how to promote a sport and promote a personality, and he doesn't what him specifically and matchmaking um match room. Yeah, I just I like Pollock's version of it. Yeah, um, matchmaking don't um don't give away things for free. You know, then they're not gonna they're not gonna be looking at rugby if they genuinely think there's no opportunity there for them. You know, they want to make money, you know. But make no bones about it. Eddie Hearn likes making money, yeah. Like his dad did before him, you know, it's the this is there's nothing charitable about this, and what it screams is genuine opportunity, you know, for Pollock, for English rugby, for rugby in general, you know, and I think we probably will have to all get comfortable with being quite uncomfortable with some of what this looks like. I've already seen him talking about bringing over players from South Africa who say they want to smash Harry Pollock and having a press conference with the two of them there like it's pre-boxing match. You know, some of this stuff's gonna be weird, some of it's not gonna work, some of it is gonna be gonna feel quite cringe worthy, would be my expect my expectation of it. And we're gonna have to take the rough with the smooth with some of these because even if any hand gets everything right, not everyone's gonna get everything right, someone's gonna do something really cringe worthy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

And it it's it will be uncharted territory of rugby, but I think it's it's waters worth exploring if we want the sport to keep growing and the profile to move with the sport the way it currently is, the trajectory, like the crowds are getting younger. Yeah, the sport does need to move with this, and I think something like this helps. I think I think on Pollock specifically, I really like the slip-up he did about calling it matchmakers. I think that already shows how it's probably not gone to his head at all. But the fact that he can't even remember the name of the company suggests that perhaps he's not that hung up on what's how how important this may be for him and the sport as a whole. He can't even remember the name of the company, so it can't have gone to his head. Um, or he was just too focused on winding up Saracens, I don't know. Well he might just be thick. We don't we don't necessarily know this for certain yet. Well we have had well, I've we did speak to one of his coaches who suggested he was quite a smart lad. Um, and I've heard others talk of him as being quite a smart, smart guy, but maybe it's all a ruse. We don't we don't know. He just needs to come on the pod so we can confirm or deny. Um absolutely Henry Pollock, come on the pod, confirm. Are you fair? Yeah, unfortunately, um we're gonna have to go through Eddie Hearn to get him now.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Which yeah, that does that does put the brakes on us getting him uh involved. Um any other players, if you'd like to join the pod before signing for Eddie Hearn, that'd be ideal actually. Or Eddie Hearn, if you want to sponsor the pod.

Round 12 Preview And Predictions

Newcastle Collapse As Exeter Click

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah, also an option. Uh absolutely no problem with doing that deal either. Um, but news wise, Rory, I think that's us. It's actually quite a heavy news section for once. It was. But you know, we like to inform the listener. So what we're gonna do now is we're gonna dig into Prem Rugby round 12, the big bonanza bash, whatever they were calling it, uh, where three of the five games were at big big venues. Um but we will start off on the Friday night game, what I am early on calling our worst prediction yet, Rory, which was Newcastle versus Exeter.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah, yeah. I mean, genuinely, this was the this was a game that made me think, why do I why was it the arrogance to think I should be on the internet talking about why am I publishing my thoughts around rugby when I am this wrong? Clearly, no, nothing. Um yeah, yeah, we we called uh we called a Newcastle winning. We thought they might pip them, you know, extravagant travel long distance, Newcastle looking really good against Saints the week before.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Um and uh Newcastle were terrible. They were so they were awful.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

I watched again thinking, were Northampton just also really bad?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Or or is this Newcastle just did not turn up this week? They turned up the week before. Newcastle did not turn up this week. Um not at all. And in fairness, particularly in the first half, Exeter were brilliant, absolutely ruthless with it. Um the their ability to keep ball is phenomenal, and they're their ability to play wide quickly. I mean, Stephen Varney is in the run in, he's he's he's in the conversation for the side of the season, yeah. For the part of the transformation that he's he's made at Exeter. His dovetailing with Harvey Skinner, but his his passing, you know, 15-20-yard passes off the back of a rug, you know, not something you would uh traditionally associate with Exeter, not something you'd necessarily see lots of without penalty advantage in the red zone. And they were just playing it and it it kept um it kept just working. I mean, Paul Brown Bampo scores after five minutes, it's just massive wide passes off the back of the lineup, just bypassed the whole defence.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

To me, that looked like a that looked like a coaching point because the way they were doing that almost deliberately, and as you say, it's very un-exeter-like. It looked to me like it's something they'd analyzed in the week that Ducastle are too bunched up like kind of first phase because it worked time after time after time.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Oh, I mean, cross I mean, particularly in the first 20 minutes, but yeah, Paul Burnband post-try, riddle uh first try, Riddle's first try, both just came off just really, really wide passing. Um, they were playing everything off the top of the line out, they were getting penalties, just kicking for territory, just playing and just and going round Newcastle. Newcastle got away with it a couple of times, but by and large, Exeter were just all over them. Um 15 minutes, get the third third tri, they switch it up, go to a line out mole. The Buchastle bring it down very, very illegally. Somehow ends up in Varney's hands on the floor, who just throws this sort of quite strange offload off the deck that goes straight to um Brown Bamper to to finish it off. Um and then Woodburn scores after 25 minutes to get the uh to get the um bonus point bonus point, sorry, which just really good continuity. Just they they they look really good with the ball, but the um the Red Bulls dreadful at the breakdown, just not accurate at the breakdown at all, kept getting pinged for penalties or getting turned over. Um dreadful with the ball in hand. Yeah, either the passing wasn't good enough, they were forcing passes, they weren't getting any ground physically, so they were just getting knocked back and throwing the ball behind each other. Physically, they were nowhere. Yep, they were just absolutely out-muscled for the first minute here. Um, the the I mean the only shining light in that first half was Christian Wade's try.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

I was gonna say that's the only thing the only positive that I could pull from this game from a newcast perspective was him pulling a little bit of magic out of the hat.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Oh, it's it's proper, proper bit of magic for Christian Wade. I mean, first phase off the back of a scrum. He just skins Riddle, skins uh, I think it's it Lily, the centre, and then he skins Will Rigg as well to go under the under the sticks. I mean it's it's properly brilliant. I mean, crack defend him, but a brilliant finish. Um, but then you know it's it's short-lived because like three or four minutes later, Will Rig busts through tackle. He played very well, actually. Will Rigg. I thought he was that's probably the best I've seen him play in the prem, actually.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Um, yeah, he busts through. They can't slow him down at the at the breakdown, they couldn't slow him down for the whole first half. Woodburn throws throws the offload and Riddle scores um just for the for the half time. So it's was it 31 7 at halftime? Game's obviously dead. Yeah. And Newcastle just have not been in it. Like the whole like that whole first half, they just weren't anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

They were I mean, they were genuinely despite rubbish the best efforts of the DJ at Kingston Park. Uh I like the 80s tunes.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I like the 80s tunes.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I like the 80s tunes, but it it felt flat. It felt flat in the stands, it felt flat on the pitch. Yeah. Um despite best efforts to G everyone up. Um which is a bit of a shame, because it's really not what I'd come to expect of Newcastle at home so far this season. Like the second half was a bit of a second half was rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

I mean Varney scored quite quite early in the first in the quite early on in the second half. It's a move they basically played last week. Basically have an inside pass from Vincent again like twice last week and scored it. They've worked out something there. Yeah. Apparently Vincent doesn't get tackled early enough. I don't know what it is. But the whole second half was just pretty poor. Newcastle had a lot of ball, quite a lot of territory, but just no punch, no finish. Yeah, everything was either really narrow or really telegraphed. It was just it just looked easy for Exodus to defend it because they were just physically so dominant.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

I'll say other than Newcastle's scrum, there's no other positives to take. They had a good scrum, and that was about it. Yeah. But I mean Hancock, uh I guess his first Prem try uh right before the end of the game. Nice moment for him, but the second half was a damn squib, really. Yeah, it's barely a consolation to a Red Bull fan, really. That's nice for nice for Hancock, but um they lost that game in the first 15 to 20 minutes, really.

Gloucester Villa Park Rant

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Which I think might be a theme in the next game we talk about. Um but uh yeah, I yeah, there's not I don't have much to add here. Uh Exeter were excellent, very impressive. Newcastle incredibly flat and uh unimpressive despite the optimism that we had for them the week before up against Northampton Saints. Uh maybe that was their final. I don't know. We'll see, we'll see how they uh go. They've got a tough game next week against La Rochelle in the Challenge Cup. Uh so be interested to see how they fare there. Um but yeah, I haven't got much more to say on this one, Rory. Not worth dwelling on. No, not worth dwelling on. Um how long would you like us to dwell on the next game, Rory? Because it's Gloucester versus Leicester at Villa Park. Can I have a rant? Rory, you are allowed a rant. Please proceed. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

So uh for anyone not aware, um this is the first time Gloucester have hosted um their uh an equivalent of big game or whatever you want to call it, you know. Um so we take it took the game to Villa Park. Brilliant stadium, like one of the oldest stadiums in the country, classic, Premier League ground, really, really cool. Um you know, Aussie Osborne murals on the way in, you know, uh lots of music, lots of history. You know, it's it's part of the new kind of catchment area that Gloucester have got around the Birmingham area, so it's a really important opportunity to start spreading some influence um in in that area. Um 25,000 there, so not massive, but it's the first year of doing it, you know. Gloucester's not a big town, you know. 25,000, I think. Not bad, um, not a bad first step, because I don't think we're ever going to get to you know 80,000 a year uh annually, like straight away. Not straight away, or probably probably not ever, because we just don't have that kind of that kind of base. That's just it's just not possible. But we could we could get to a 40,000 kind of gate every year and a really good day out. There's no reason not to. But this is your first one, so it's important. It's obviously it's obviously massively important to uh to create the right feel about the place, which they did. It felt really good. You know, there's nice stuff going on around the ground, um, you know, good mix of people. It you know, see a lot of youngsters knocking about, um all that felt really good. A lot of good contingent of Leicester fans. Um, I say good contingent, a contingent of Leicester fans. Um, you know, they're still quite an irritating bunch, but whatever. Um, so obviously, what's left, what's what's left on this is your product on the pitch. And I I you know, I don't like to be this negative about any team I support, particularly not Gloucester. And I don't like to suggest that players aren't committed and aren't tracked, but you can't really have any enough conclusion having watched the first 15 minutes of that game. Um in the stand, just like it's just it would and it was beyond embarrassing, yeah. It's beyond embarrassing. Um, Ben Redshaw, a criminal, criminal lack of commitment to defending. I wondered how long you'd bring up that name. Honestly, I really like Ben Redshaw, right? I think he's got a lot of potential, and he's got a lot of the ingredients that to that could make him a top-level fullback. Yeah, but if he tackles like that, he'll be lucky to go back into that one because I mean, for the first two tries, he's directly at fault. I mean, he's not the only one at fault. The fact that one wide pass to the wing was all less than to do is pathetic, pathetic defence across the board. But his literal effort within the tackles was embarrassing to watch. I a J a genuine embarrassment. I obviously I was surprised he played the game. I I don't know why he played the rest of the game. Um I was surprised he played the Vulati as well. I mean, I assume they were just trying to give him the opportunity to make up for it. But I honestly, after 10 minutes, he could have been hooked, and he would have deserved to have been hooked. Yeah. Um the line out defence, the mall defence at the line out, uh, not great, not to didn't look good from where I was at. Looked like they were really giving it going. You know, the Tigers have got a good lineup mall, they always do. Yeah, traditionally, we have quite good mall defence, but didn't we just look like we could we crumbled?

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And you'd think that'd be something you'd focus on in the week as well, ahead of Leicester visiting you.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

You would like to think so, yeah. Um, and then uh for Blame's second try, uh again, more pathetic tackling um uh for Sogbon, I think, particularly at Vault, where he had hold of him and just lets him wriggle over the line. Um, genuinely, I was furious. That first 15 minutes, I was so so furious with it because I mean, not to put too far a point on it, as you know, I live in Essex, the game was in Birmingham. It's not an insignificant cost to go there. Forget your tickets just to travel there, yeah. Plus your tickets, plus your beer, you know, plus your day out, whatever else. It's a significant outlay, you know. And I'm fortunate enough that I can do these things every now and again. Glossa's quite a working-class town, yeah. There's not a lot of money knocking around there, you know. It would have so for some people that would have been a big chunk of change out of the their spending money for a significant period of time to go to that game. And to put that on the pitch in the first 15 minutes is pathetic um and insulting. Um, in terms of the rest of the game, you know, you could make the argument that Gloucester were the better team for the for the 60 minutes after after that.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah, there was evidence of a fight back and a reaction, which is something, Rory, which is something to cling on to.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

But it's irrelevant when you've already given up the bonus point to the Tigers team, which you know aren't going to give away the win at that point. Once they got the bonus point, no one thought Gloucester were going to overhaul that scoreline.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

No, yeah. Leicester just put it into neutral and coaster their way home.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Basically, you know, I mean, look, you know, nice endeavour, some nice patterns. You can see what some of the coach stuff have been working on. You could see that there's been some development of the of the game there, but not great fluency, not great accuracy, lots of drop balls, lots of missed opportunities. Um and ultimately, I've just come back to the point of you lost the game in the first 15 minutes. So what you did for the other 65 minutes, frankly, I don't give a shit because the first 15 minutes it was pathetic.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah. Um what do you think caused that first 15 minutes just not being up for the occasion? Because if that's the case, that's criminal, obviously, with it being the Slater Cup, or is it Leicester just were that much better?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

No, because the tries are too easy. Yeah. The tries are too easy to say that Leicester were that much better. You know, Leicester were better than Gloucester. Like they're not getting away from that point.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

But one wide pass to a winger who just posts in virtually unopposed in a set defence of second phase, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

It's not like they had to work hard for it. For me, it was just an abject lack of commitment to the to the cause. And look, I'm pretty I'm pretty forgiving of a lot of lost failings a lot of the time. You know, you get used to it. That's handy. I've had yeah, I've had a lifetime to to deal with that. But something like this really, really pisses me off. Yeah. Um, because it's not it's just not grasping the mantle, is it? It's you've got a real opportunity there to do something special. It's the Slater Cup, it's the first big game, it's the first time rugby's been held at Villa Park. It's you know, it's the first time Gloucester have ever taken a big game out. There's so much going on there, and that's what you put out on the pitch. It's just it's just not good enough. Doesn't sit right. Um, and look, I mean I saw a couple of skivenson's quotes after the game, you know. I I reckon he was spitting feathers in in that dressing room. So he should be. But based on what he was saying in the media up, I wouldn't have liked to have been he he specifically says if I were picking a team for this week, which he's not because we're out of Europe, there are two or three players who would be nowhere near the squad base of their performance today. And that suggests to me there's a there are some people in that dressing room who have had fingers pointed directly at them for things they didn't do. Yeah. Um and to be honest, they needed to.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I I think that is needed sometimes, especially if players are having. Well, I'd I'd be very surprised if one of those players wasn't Ben Redshaw, for example, who had an absolute stinker. Uh it's on skivs now to do the man management side of that because obviously Redshaw's a young player, lots of rugby ahead of him in his career. But I mean kicks-up passes need to happen.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Some kicks-up passes have to happen after that because I don't know if they thought after one win against a poor Harlequin side, suddenly they were shit hot. Yeah, you know, you've got two wins all seasons, lads.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah, yeah. And uh we'll touch on it uh lately, but uh there's a team hot on your heels now all of a sudden for that precious eighth spot. Um I ask you about, because I obviously I only got to watch it from the the telly, and I wasn't able to be in Villa Park with you. But I felt from watching it on the TV that there was a very, very large contingent of Leicester Tigers fans there. Obviously, Birmingham probably being equidistant between Leicester and Gloucester, but not a lot in it. Yeah. So I think obviously though I I get the whole idea around the big match bonanzas being at these big venues, and I completely get it, and I'd be all for it. But is there a risk that when we do them at locations like Filler Park, which I appreciate is in the Gloucester catchment area now, and etc, etc. Is it blurring the lines between home and away advantage? Because on TV I'd argue it sounded more like a Tigers home game than it did a Gloucester home game. Yeah, well that might have been more to do with what was happening on the pitch. True, but did did you did that have that feel in the stadium? Is my question to you, because you were there boots on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

I I would say it was it was yeah, I mean it was much more of an even feel around the stadium than you would get at King's home, of course. I mean, much, much more even. Yeah but we wouldn't say overwhelmingly tigers, but obviously just tigers were a lot more vocal because you know they're so reason to be vocal. Um in terms of people at the game, I still think Gloucester fans were the predominant um number there, but yeah, I think they'd just rather um put a dampener on their on their day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

I can understand why. I can understand why. Uh so how did how did that game end, Rory? Just remind me.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Gloucester 17 that many Tigers 36. Thank you very much.

Harlequins Drag Bristol Into A Scrap

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I I don't want to kick a bow when he's down. We at least we predicted this one correctly. Uh we we weren't expecting Gloucester to win this one. Uh no, no. Maybe maybe a bit of a better showing considering the occasion, considering the Slater Cup, considering the opportunity in the venue. But hey, um you've got a week to rest and you've got a chance to recuperate, refocus, and go again and really challenge for eighth spot um for the rest of the season. Thanks, man. I'm trying to be optimistic for you, Rory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry about that. Next game, Rory. And runner-up in games we're really bad at predicting this week. Yeah. Is Bristol vs. Hard the Principality. Um basically we predicted this was gonna be a basketball score, uh, and it turned into quite a close, hard-fought physical game of rugby that I was not expecting in the slightest.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, I was surprised how hard this was to watch. This was a much less entertaining game than I thought than anyone I think thought it would have been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Um last year we had a go at Bath for not showing the Principality enough of uh enough respect to put on a show when they played Bristol. I think this time we have to blame Bristol for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Yeah, Bristol were just rubbish, they were poor, again, really poor. Um I will I will give Quinn's their dues, though. This is the grittiest performance I've seen them put on the pitch for I mean a good couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Uh I was so surprised because obviously I was I was at I was in hospitality at this point, so I didn't have a chance to watch this game live. And when I saw the score at the end, I was very surprised because when I saw their team sheet as well, like it almost felt like they'd thrown in the towel.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I thought the same, I have to say. Uh no Marcus Smith, obviously. Um yeah, Jamie Benson was playing Wacorn, I think was uh out injured, Murley at 13. Um, no Tyrone Green. Um Stu Townsend at nine, no Will Porter. Yeah, it was it was a Ellie Williams first Prem start in the second row.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Proper mishmash, I I would say. Yeah, yeah. Quinn's teams we'd seen before, but maybe this is what they need to go with going ahead. I don't know. Um don't want to get too carried away if I'm a Quince fan, actually.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Actually, I'll hold back a little bit, but um I mean it was it was by the gritty, the grittiest they've looked, and you know, it did not make for an attractive game by any stretch. It was it was a it was a pretty dour affair, um, but a massive credit to the likes of Petty, Don Brandt was excellent, Elliot Williams on his first start. I thought was quietly very good. Yeah, um not bad for an 18-year-old. How is he 18? He is enormous. Spoiler alert, he might feature later on. Yeah, yeah. Um I thought Stu Townsend kept temper really well, thought Jamie Benson was really good. Um Sean Kerr when he came on, slotted a few lads. Uh I you know, huge credit to to how Quinn's performed in this one. I I I did not see this coming. Um, you know, they should have had a try quite early on, chalked off for a really weak call from the assistant referee that uh someone was being held down. It was a weak old call. Um, and then Bristol uh Bristol go down the other end of the pitch, win the pen, keep loads of pressure on pick and go, pick and go, pick and go. Fitz hard and goes over, seems to score a lot of pick and goes um for for supposedly the most attractive team to watch in the league. Um and but then it goes back the other way. Don Brandt scores a nice, quite quite a classical try, really. It wasn't even sort of Quinn's hair'em, scare him, offload from everywhere, run it from everywhere. It was just quite classical, nice phases. Um, and in the end, it's quite a sneaky pick and go from Don Brandt as well. Yeah. But I mean, Quinn's just ruined Bristol ball. I mean, I think Quinn's came there with the attitude of we're just gonna make Bristol's day really shit. Yeah, we're just gonna ruin their day.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

We'll just make it that they were not having fun, so that they'll just be like, oh well, I'm not playing then. I think that's the effect it had.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I think he was just they were just trying to sort of make them have a sort of this is my ball and I'm taking it and going home kind of moment.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

It's like the kids at the playground, they're having too much fun at the ball, so you go and take the ball home, and then you just have to stand there and just sulk. And I think that's what Britain did.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

They were quite sulky at times. They were. Um they really were. Yeah, I mean, Quinn's ruined them at the ruck, just they they're a good jackal inside anyway. You know, they got they don't have Will Evans, but they're Cenningham, Don Brand, Jack Walker, who were all good jackalers in the in the um four pack. Murley's pretty good over the ball, Iskrow's pretty good over the ball. Yeah, um, Stu Townsend's quite good over the ball for the size of him. Um I thought they were I thought they played it really, really well. I just think that's quite unusual for them. Yeah, because they can't.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

It's unusual for Quinn's to play well, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Yeah, well, but but also for them to choose the right tactics. I don't think I've seen them do it all season.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Maybe they've just really reacted positively to the news that uh Jason Gilmore's now their coach, even though he's doing it.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

The global search all coaching possibilities to find who the best possible coach might be. Yeah, that's the one that's just turned into the guy that's running here. Yeah. What what what a globe what they combed it, didn't they? They coned the surface of the earth for a new coach.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

To me, that just tells how many of them said no, uh, if I'm honest. Uh yeah. But hey, there's been a reaction. New coach bouts, I think. Uh does it count? Sort of, yeah. Sort of, yeah, sort of a new coach bouts. Um, but yeah, I I think this is more about how poor Bristol were. Um yeah, Brist Bristol had a lot of ball, a lot of territory. They got a lot of ball, they just spilt so much, they were sort of loose with it.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Line out failed at the wrong time. Yeah, Quinn's uh holding the ball up on the triline more than once, ruined a mall on the try-line when Bristol has scored more mall tries than anyone else in the league this season, despite being such an attractive team to watch. The entertainers, um yeah, but they score a lot of mole tries, uh, a lot of pick and goes. But yeah, the great entertainers that are Bristol. Um, you know, supposedly the best moulning team in the league.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I switched my my next question to you, Rory, is uh if you were walking down a dark alley at night time and you saw Ellis Genge with his new shaved head and mustache, would you cross to the other side of the road or the other side of the town?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Oh, I I think I would just sort of assume I was being kidnapped for some sort of Victorian circus.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

He just look I don't know what I don't know how he's done it. I don't know what sort of He looks scarier. He looks scarier, and I don't know how he's done it. He looks like um if he puts a pair of glasses on and a grocer's mustache, he'll look like the bad guy from Sonic.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Oh yes, yes. Yeah, I mean Jim Carey I think brings a sort of cab quality to that role, but uh I was thinking there's not a huge cab quality to what Genja's doing.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

No, that's very true. That's very true. Um, but that is the extent of the positives I can draw from the br for Bristol from this uh game. Uh they certainly didn't light up Cardiff, they certainly didn't light up the principality.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

And I thought they were really, really poor. Um I think their skills letting down, yeah, which is really that is unusual for Bristol. Uh, you know, like Reese Samet kicking out on the fall, passing out on the fall, throwing bad passes behind people, which you know wasn't the only ones to do that. Quite a few did that. Randall didn't play particularly well. Um I thought James Williams was surprisingly poor in the centres. Um yeah, uh their scrum was a mixed bag at best. And they just got bullied at the breakdown, really. But you know, that they didn't get a grip on the they Bristol get away with a lot of um isolated players because they play with such pace, and Randall usually plays with such pace that it they can get away with it. Quinn's were so good at the breakdown they finally saw what would happen with their style if if you just don't get a parity there. Um they I don't they they didn't seem to ever learn a lesson that they were getting isolated too quickly. You know, I don't know what the turnover stats are, but Quinn's must have had close to 15 plus.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Well, if you were to just talk openly for just a handful of seconds whilst I gather the turnover stats.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah, I'll um I'll talk a bit more. Um I thought I thought Bristol they they got they won 10 turnovers, which is still a lot in a game. I mean that's gotta be well above average, right? Oh, for sure. Um and that's without that's without sort of um slowing down Rucks, yeah, yeah, you know, making Rux untidy. Yeah. Um so I just thought Bristol seemed really casual in this one. Um and Quinn's looked laser focused. I think you know, finally whatever is being said behind the scenes actually landed at Quinn's this week and they pulled a performance out.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

It's only taken 12 rounds of rugby for that to happen, Rory. So times 12 times the charm. 12 times the charm. 12 times the charm. Yeah, um, yeah, not a great deal more. We I think we've done a good job of digging into Bristol and you know, giving Harlequins their flowers limited in a limited sense. And I think Harlequins their flowers, brackets limited. Brackets limited. I think that's what that's the extent of what's deserved after this uh this event. I think ramifications for the wider league picture is interesting because I think the result of this has created a bit of a void between the top four and everyone else, which I think Bristol may end up when it comes to the end of the season. This could be the game that they point their finger at and say that's where we've lost our our chance, maybe. But we'll see. There's still a long way to go. There's still a long way to go.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Another damp squib of a big game. And I'm I get the feeling, David, we're possibly going to a review of another one. Yes and no.

Saints Survive Saracens At Spurs

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yes and no. Yes and no. Um, let me so we're gonna move on to Saracens versus Saints. Let me paint a picture. Uh I I I'm part of a syndicate thing where it's part of like a player sponsorship syndicate for Northampton Saints fans, and sometimes as a benefit or a perk of this, uh as if you were a sponsor of a player's where you get uh opportunity to go for things like hospitality packages, match tickets, raffles drawers. And I got lucky enough that I managed to win a couple of tickets to hospitality to this game. Uh, so obviously I took it up. I drove my way over to North London and was lucky enough to park next to David Flatman on the day. Uh in his lovely while he's got a lovely huge V8 Range Rover personalised license plate. So if you could get me on that TNT, get me on that TNT, money. I'm uh I'll be laughing. Um also interesting enough, he has someone warm up his car on the way out. Uh I thought it was quite interesting. There was someone sat there keeping his car warm before he left. How the mighty live. Um, but yeah, that's not the main thing to take from this game. I enjoyed a lovely sausage roll, the seats were comfy, padded, cup holders, lovely. Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, lovely stadium. It's good, isn't it? It's a beauty, it is really, really good. And uh can't say a bad word about it. Sound system great, lighting system great. We had Dizzy Rascal in between the PWR game, which I caught 60 minutes of, which was really good. Good win for the Saracens women. Um Ig Light Show, so yes, Saracens put on a great occasion, cannot fault it what they've done on the channel. How many? Um how many in the stadium? Roughly? Uh 45,000, I believe. Okay, not bad. So it wasn't a sellout, which I thought it would be, but hey, you know, I can't. There's been a lot of advertising, so I probably should be a sellout. And I know a lot of tickets were given away for free on like blue light cards and things like that. So a bit surprising there was 15,000 seats unfilled, but that's not for me to comment on. Uh what I can comment on is the rugby that was on the pitch. Now, it is a tale of two stories, worrying, not two halves, two stories. And it is the story of Northampton Saints Avec FinnSmith and Northampton Saints Sons FinnSMith. Uh so the first 15-20 minutes before FinnSMith goes off with a after a failed HIA, we were looking magnifique. We were tearing Saracens to shreds, we were really putting them to the sword, they did not have an answer to us. So what do they do? They go and injure our loose head and many, then they go knock out our fly half with Finn Smith. Northampton lose their shape altogether, really struggle to put things together after that for about 60 minutes, and Saracens just turned into just a set piece machine, and just really well the game really lost its momentum, so many scrums and reset scrums, lots of penalties, it really took the life out of the game. Um, but you know, the last five minutes for me made it a fantastic game, despite everything that happened in between, because as a Northampton Saints fan, for us to go and beat one of our main rivals in the closing minutes of their big showdown, or as I'm calling it the shoe-down, um, it's fantastic. And that that final try, I think, is emblematic of everything that we were doing right with Finn Smith before he went off, and it's just like we figured it out in the last five minutes about how we were drawing defenders, creating space, good running lines, good running angles, creating mismatches, creating number mismatches, and what has been two of our probably most improved players this season in Tom Litchfield and Arch McParland delivering a match-winning try uh on what was a fantastic occasion for a Northampton Saints fan. Now, Rory, I'm interested in your view as a two-eyed Gloucester fan rather than my one-eyed view as a Saints fan.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I mean, it's a good win. Uh, obviously, losing Finn Smith that early is and I mean suggests that maybe you should have had Anti Bellier on the bench, but I don't know if he's injured.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

No, he was he was there warming up um with the kickers. I guess the theory was that we had Furbank at 15 who can step in at 10, and Hutchinson who can also step in at 10. Uh, so they opted to have Dingwall on the bench instead of Bello. But I agree. Yeah, I I do think the problem is Finn Smith is usually an 80-minute player, so you can't plan for him to go off that early. He usually plays 80 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

No, fair enough. Um, yeah, I look that that's obviously the tip the tipping point. Outside of that, I didn't think this was much of a watch.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Um, the the the middle 60 was it was a struggle to get too excited by like the number of scrums and scrum resets for me just really sucked the life out of this game. Um I enjoyed watching Henry Pollock have a good old flap uh to the assistant referees. Uh kind of the Pollock sideshow is quite entertaining to watch um from my padded seat. I didn't the at the start of the game in the player warm-ups. I know there's been a few clips online about him like wandering around the Saracens side to the pitch during the war, like it was so funny. He he was deliberately just loitering, just standing, power posing in the Saracen side, mind games from the offset. For a 21, 20-year-old, lad's got kahunas. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you've got to back it up. Well, I'd say he did in on the whole in this game. The one particular run he did where he just absolutely levelled Owen Farrell, went down a treat for all the Saints fans I sat with. Uh, and that carry he did where he had Mara Toshi as a backpack was also quite entertaining. Um, so I think I think he got one or two really key turnovers as well. So I think he's done enough to say on this occasion.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Enough to say he back a nose. Yeah. You can you can shadow box at the winning try.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Yes, in this on this match, yes, I'd say maybe not for the rest of the season. He's shown that. But this game's probably one of his first starts of the season, if you like put that into context. It's probably the first time he's been given 80 minutes to put on a performance, so give him that. Um, but like outside, obviously, I'm gonna be really optimistic about it and think things are much better from a Saints perspective, they probably are to a the neutral. I appreciate it was only another tight win, but Northampton are winning when they're not playing at the end.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

It is a win though, it is a win away against Saracens, admittedly, in the big stand in the big stadium.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

And there were a lot of Saints fans there as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

A lot of fans. I mean, I I bumped into quite a lot of them coming back through London. Um, great bunch of lads. Um I mean you you've got to be pleased with with a win like that. Yeah, yeah. You have to, but I think it's for all the um the fanfare of the sort of the three big games on Saturday. Oh, yeah. I thought all three games were pretty poor.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Yeah, uh the whole yeah, the whole idea of it being big game bonanza really didn't live up to the hype at all.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

If I'm honest, another quite poor weekend in the Prem for quality of games, yeah. Some nice some nice moments, yeah, by and large, five quite poor games.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah, and it and it's also led to a situation where the leagues become a little bit unexciting because the closeness of it all is kind of separating, um, as previously mentioned. So we could do with some some some shock results coming up, some exciting rugby uh would be good. Um, but I will say the first 15 minutes of Northampton Saints were very, very good. I I would say that that was probably the best I've seen them play in a while. Um, it's just a shame that it got cut short because of injuries. Um, but that's rugby. We need to be able to adapt. And Northampton in the past have been able to adapt to that well, not so much this time, but we still got the win, so I'm not gonna moan. I also would like to credit Archie McParland. He's really shrugged off the R mob curse because he is on some form at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Um yeah, so I mean it's the best I've seen him play, probably. Um last week I thought was an okay performance. This week I thought was a genuinely good performance. I think I think he's he's he seems to be finding his feet properly at the moment, which is good to see because he's got he's got all the talent. Um, but I wasn't sure we were necessarily seeing that get put down on the paddock, but now I think we absolutely are.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

I I think I had to pinch myself a little bit because I had to remind myself he's only 21 still, and he's only just you know he's barely out of a short trousers, and the amount of rugby he's played compared to say Alex Mitchell at Alex when Alex Mitchell was 21. If he follows a similar trajectory, it's worth getting optimistic about his career ahead of him. Um but hey, we're fans of Archie McParland because he's a friend of the pod. So um friend of the pod. Friend of the pod. Uh outside of that, from a Saracen's perspective, I think Tobias Elliott stood out to me as yeah, it's good to see him back truck scoring trials.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

I think his finish was was really impressive under quite a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

He looks like he's yeah, he looks built now. Yeah, whatever showing some shades of that good form. Um I thought I thought Saracen's on a hole around the pitch, quite uninspiring. I think Elliot Daly on his hundredth game for Saracens just passing the ball into touch was kind of emblematic of their their backs play on the day.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

They're an uninspiring team to watch the moment, Saracens by and large. They're just they are just an uninspiring team to watch.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

And I'm more so convinced now than I was last week that Tom Willis is carrying some sort of injury because he was ineffective and he was pulled off at 55 minutes. You don't you don't do that in a close game unless there's something wrong with him. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

But they obviously forced him out there because they lost Gonzalez and McFarlane last week, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 53:43

So McFarlane played. Um no, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Uh Gonzalez and Earl couldn't play this week. Yeah, Earl had to be rested if they wanted to choose that streak.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Uh yeah, that's probably why. But um I think when Michelow came on, he arguably played better than Willis did. Um was not Willis's day, and that's what I'm convinced he's carrying something because it's just it's unlike him for the rest of the whole of the season. Like he only carried 16 metres and beat one defender. Those aren't Willis' stats. No, um but yeah, um great day as a Saints fan, lovely day at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, and uh all I'll say is the North Orbital is a horrible road, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Um yeah, it's a really um it's a it's a to to drive to, it's not a great choice of stadium, but lovely train links.

Bath Come Alive After Half-Time

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Well, not on this weekend because of rail replacement services. But hey, I'm back home now. Uh moving on after the big show, I'm trying to think of a word beginning with B that is the opposite of Bonanza. Bore the big banana the the big show bore. We come to the Sunday game, which Sale versus Bath. Again, another one tricky to get too excited about. Uh Bath sending a rotational side made up of probably the players that they use to be the players that they're starting 23 train against. And Ted and Ted Hill. Up against a George Ford led Sale who had a lot to well had an opportunity here to get a good win at home. And um they didn't, and I think it's really this really shows where sale are at the moment because sale of last season I think puts away that Bath team. Um Bath, I would say, were arguably saved by the Bath bombs, once again, but they just unloaded the bathroom.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

I mean, as indicated by Vend, it was 197 to sale at half time and finished 3126 to Bath at full time. Yeah. Um the the real the turning point for me was I mean, Sale Scrum was decimating Bath and it was it was their main weapon in that first half. Um I think the uh their ability to get territory just came down to their ability to win scrum time. Um it wasn't the best advert for Billy Seller and Scott Kirk, was it? No, they both struggled, both really struggled. Um, I mean Robert DePeers, Robert Priya's try comes basically directly from um from a scrum after Santee, uh Santi Carreras does uh kicks a goal kick straight out on the fall. Again, not a great game from him, really, um, which is not gonna do his future playing time any uh any favours, I expect to I gather that he's already a bit um underwhelmed with the amount of time he's been getting on the pitch. Oh understandably. Um but yeah, Bath were Bath went down to 30 men at one point in the in the first half. Um stail scrum well on top, and then on uh Joan Van Groan on comms when he was asked about the the scrum says you know I've got I've got to leave him on the pitch. They you know the only way to learn is to keep fighting with him, then you know, it's gonna leave them on there to fight through and find solutions. It substitutes them less than after the conversation. Just sends sends uh Ubano and Thomas Latoy on. It doesn't turn, I would say turned immediately from that, um, because they Bath did go down to 13 right after that uh Dan Frost got binned for basic persistent penalties from the team. And Luke Cowendicki scores the line out mall just before half time. Um but after half time, once they get back up to just I mean, basically once they're up to 14, really, but certainly when they're back up to 15, it's just all bath. I mean, it was a it was a big wind. It was a you know, I would say it was a 20-point wind each half. But even even taking that into account, sale really just did not did not keep hold of uh the the mantle of this match at all. Um not at all.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

I think I think the their their game is summed up nicely in the final like it's like the final five minutes where they've got an opportunity to go and try and get that winning score, and they just couldn't put two passes together, they just couldn't just couldn't create anything, they had no no creativity. Like this is George Ford at 10, like Bath did a good job of smothering him, but I just they just really did not seem on the same page at times, and I think that's just been the story of sale season, really.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

You could tell you could tell they were missing a bit of their punch up front, and you could tell they were missing a bit of stardust in the backs. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think Joe Carpenter was is not quite fit. Tom Roebux obviously just back from the Six Nations. Um Rob Depreer went off at half time, effectively Maritz Low. That that in particular, I think, kind of hamstrung them because they just looked one-dimensional in the backs. Um yeah, I don't know, uh very indicative of sales season, really. Lots of endeavour, lots of carry-in, lots of tackles. But I bet they just I bet they can't wait for next season already. Oh, it's just if you're if you're Alexander's just get this over with. We're going nowhere here.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Yeah, that's that's not a lot possible. I think yeah, you think so. Nathan Jabulu, who's playing at seven, I thought was an interesting experiment. He made 28 tackles.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Yeah, it was also on a he was also on a warning for a yellow card after about five minutes in the game, having given away like three penalty advantages.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

He's he was up for it. Um perhaps too up for it. Um, but you know, I sometimes you got to uh applaud a bit of trying something new. Did it work? He could do it again in the future, but mixed back, he can go there if you need him to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, there's again it's another game where there's not an awful lot to wax lyrical about.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Well, the only thing I need to wax lyrical about because the rest of the rugby world's gonna do it anyway. Um Capitu Pilotu.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah, I think that's that's that's fair. I think he made a huge difference coming on, didn't he?

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Like Well, the chip ahead for Vandalinder is just so they nick the line out, it falls to him. He gets he skins um skins around uh Gus War on the short side, and then just puts in like a perfect kick through for Vandalinder to to gather. Outside of the boot as well, outside of the boot, so it was deliberately beautifully weighted. I mean, it may you could argue maybe Sail could do better in the backfield, blah blah blah blah blah, but that kid is special.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Yeah, I I think that that 15-second clip of him, which has been everywhere already, yeah, represents why everyone's been excited about him for a couple of years now already, because that's what he's was doing in the age grade, like he was bumping players off, pulling off a little bit of magic. Well, dare I say it, a bit Pollock-esque, in the sense of you know, something you wouldn't expect someone with that position to do. Think back to Pollock through the chip and chase against Sale last season.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Are we far enough into Henry Pollock's career that we can start calling other players Pollockesque?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

I think when you're talking about a player at the very start of their career doing things outside of the ordinary for their position, I think that's a fair comparison. I'm not saying Pollock's a legend of the game, I'm just saying it's a comparison to someone in a similar stage of his career. I understand. Okay, fair enough. Uh so yeah. Just because I mentioned his name doesn't mean you have to go against me, Rory. Um no, you do mention it a lot though. And rightly so. Uh but yeah, I like I I think that that well could be the viral moment that makes Tuopolotu move up from the England A squad to the England squad because there'll be a lot of people saying, How on earth can he not be picked when he's doing stuff like that? Next man at Matram question mark. Well, if I was Eddie Hearn and really serious about going into rugby, I'd be looking at Keppi Tupelotto, I'll be looking at Noah Kalori, um, and I'd be looking at any other youngster that's coming through Elliot Williams at Harlequins. Like, look at that generation, get them signed in on the cheap, because they're they are the ones who to be excited about in the future. Um great showing from Tupolotti off the bed. The fact that he nearly got man of the match um when he played, you know, 20 minutes, yeah, uh says a lot about that impact and also says a lot about the previous 60 minutes before he came on as well, I think. Um Ethan Stadden thought yeah, it was Ethan Stadden who had a good game. Uh, and I think he represents Bath's big problem at the moment is that he's one of their players who's leaving them next season because they can't offer him enough game time, and he's genuinely a very good player.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Yeah, Bristol got a real find there, I think.

Our 20 Under 20 Players List

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Yeah, yeah. So I think he shown um showed what he has to offer and Bristol yeah, rubbing their hands with a bit of a bit of a bit of joy there. But I think there, Rory, we've got to the end of the round twelve fixtures. Um I've not put to pull together a team of the week this week because I don't think it's worth doing with the standard rugby that was on this week, and I I think or gone to any other rugby page on social media, and they've got a team of the week, and they're pretty much all the same this week because it's a bit bit obvious. But one thing that is new this week, Rory, is the announcement of the little thing I teased at the end of last week is the Ruxmalls and Overballs 20 under 20 Prem Rugby players to watch. Um I've posted the list already on social media just so you know I wanted to whet the appetite of the listener. And so I'll run it through now and I'll I'll give a bit of context about why these players have been selected, because I think you know that's what the listeners are here for. If you've tuned in now just for this bit, it's because you want to know why these players have been chosen. So, to start off with, number one, 001 in the armor of under 20 was Rory Lane's pick from Gloucester, Will Knight. Uh now I seconded this pick, I think this is a good pick, and it's a very warranted pick. Will Knight, a very good centre, already got some good minutes under his belt. Looks like he's got the minerals to play at the top level already. So I was quite comfortable with this pick. Uh Rory, any any specific reasons beyond that that you've chosen yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Uh the Gloucester Academy speaks for itself. You can see how effective it is. Um, just producing great players left, right, and centre.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Um I can't wait for him to be playing for another club in two years' time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I suspect he'll be playing for Bath or Bristol within the year. Um, no, genuinely really been impressed by him this season. I mean, he's at 18, he's stepped into the first team when we've been decimated by injuries, and he's looked you know not out of place. Um, elegant runner, tall, rangy, uh, quick. I think he's got a real future as a as a probably a Sev Atkinson um like player, be my guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Yeah, I think so. I I was looking through my notes of last year's Academy final. Uh, it was quite interesting. So he was playing that day, and he was one of the ones that I picked out as uh really standing out. So it's good to know that that's continued on to the next stage of his career. Now, number 002, I've gone for Jack Lewis from Northampton Saints, uh, as mentioned previously. So he was the captain for the Northampton School for Boys who won the School's Cup. He's already got some Prem Rugby Cup minutes at the age of 17. He looks like a 25-year-old. Uh he's athletic, he's an athletical specimen. Uh, and considering he's got what, five, six years of maturation still to go, just that's a reason alone to watch him. Uh, and the fact that he's half decent at rugby as well, uh, is enough to get excited by. 0-0-3. I've gone for Tate Williams at Harlequins. Now he's one of the.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

Yeah, we've watched him a little bit in the background. He's um he is an athlete and he has got skills, and he looks like he could be frightening.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

He could be very frightening. Uh, he was a real standout to last year's Academy Finals Day. He's now in the England under 20 picture. Uh, he's moving around kind of lock back row, so I don't know exactly what position he's going to settle on in the future, but he certainly has some athletic prowess, and he's super rapid, super elusive, and carrying. Hard, so I thought can't not have him in the equation. Interested to see where his career takes and what position he settles on. 004 Rory is Patrick Hogg, uh, now of Sale Sharks, previously of the Newcastle Academy. Um, yeah, he's one that for a while has been bouncing around the back row and has now settled in the second row, and he is a big physical lump of a Geordie that likes to likes the dirty stuff, likes the messy stuff, and likes to get his head in all the dark places that you want from a second rower. Uh, and the fact he's like six foot eight and you know 120 kegs at the age of 18, exciting stuff. Um, so he's one to watch for sure. 005 is Ocean Williams. Now I had a little tip-off here from a coach who will remain nameless, uh, who is involved in some part of his career, and said he is one to really watch, and he thinks has what it has what it takes to go all the way. He's in the Welsh under-twenties at the age of 18 already. Um so I'm just keen to see where this takes him because I'm basically judging this uh particular coach's um potential assessment on this one player. So I'm putting my opinion on it. Got credit on it. Got a lot of credit on it. It's on it's on this guy. Um, so we'll see how he fares. Now 006 is George Newman. So he was a scrum half for extra chiefs. Again, this is from last year's Academy Final Day. He really stood out to me. Again, he's now part of the England under 20 setup. He's getting minutes with them, and I think he is he's one of these, he's a bit raffy quirk like style of number nine. Uh likes. Yeah, yeah, he's got he's got a good brain on him, he's quick, likes a snipe, good distribution, uh, quick, interesting to see where it takes him. Uh, down next to Chiefs, and we know that scrum half, you know, pre-Seven Varney has been a problem position for them for a while, but interesting to see where he lands. Now, 007 is James Linegar, the much talked about fly half out of Bath. Um, he's on record saying that he wants to play for the British and Irish Lions, those are his ambitions. Uh, he's one of the youngest players for Bath to offer a professional contract to that I'm aware of. I think he was offered to it when he was 16. Uh, so there's a lot of hopes around him. Not quite yet seen it in Premier B Cup where he's had a couple of minutes. Uh, and if I'm honest, was second best in last season's premiership Academy Finals Day to Hugh Shields of Northampton, who hasn't made this list, but a player does not get this much hype unless there's something to be really excited about.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

So he's there's obviously some talent there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Need to keep an eye on him. Um, he may well be Barth's Finn Russell um contingency plan. He may be the air apparent. So he is one to watch. Now, 008 is George Marsh. So he's another player that I first spotted uh in the last year's under 18s Academy. Uh yes, so I remember seeing George Marsh is a bit of a unit. Big old unit, played number eight on the day for Leicester Tigers, bit of an old-fashioned Leicester Tigers style back rower, really physical, loves a carry, loves the dirty work. Again, has been bouncing around the back row in the second row in the England under 20s camp again. So still got another year after this one at that age grade. So all these players are kind of playing a year up as it is an age grade rugby, which is all good signs for them. Um, but I think he's just got the physicality and the physique to potentially carry him to senior men's rugby, and from what I've seen, he may well go go go places with Leicester. So one to watch. Now, number nine is a bit of an out there one, and it's based purely off of a little bit of viral clips. So if you ever want to just see something quite entertaining, go look up Henry Suey on TikTok or Instagram, and there's some clips of him where he just absolutely bulldozes players, and he's he's in the Bath Academy, and he is a physical specimen. I think he's still got a couple of years at academy level, so he's one that's for the future, future, future. Um, but uh I had to put him on the list just because that viral clip alone came in like a wrecking ball. He came in like a wrecking ball, exactly. Number 10, name that most people be familiar with, but he is still under 20. Surprise, surprise, it's Noah Calorey. Yeah, enough said, Roger. Enough said, Yeah, you have to watch him. It's mainly just so I've got some names that are just rubber stamped, guaranteed to go and have superstar careers, so I can look back in 10 years and pretend I spotted him at the very start. Which I can't I kind of did. Um, but you know, just rubber stamping that for me. Number 11, similarish style, but Elliot Williams, another one I picked out last year, but I think he's grown since I saw him last year.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

He is he must be about six foot fucking 13 or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

Yeah, yeah. He is gigantic. He is probably the biggest 18-year-old in rugby, and he could grow even more, and he carries himself well, and he's already playing Prem rugby at 18 years old.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

He didn't look physically out of place in the slightest in the pro. So if you're 18 and you're doing that, you have to be honest, he made Karen Tranlo look quite small.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Yeah, so you have to watch out for him and his career because who knows where that could take him. Obviously, size isn't everything, but he he seems to have the game to go with it as well. Number 12, I've gone Eduardo Todaro because I can't have Noah Calore and then not have the other break out on kind of 18-year-old from this season. So I kind of had to have him. Plus, I again for another one that you know in 10 years' time I could be able to look back and say, Yep, I spotted him. But this time I genuinely did spot him quite early on. I was singing his praises a long time ago. Um, so I just want a bit of credit, people. I just want a bit of credit. Number 13, AJ Edwards, the sole Newcastle Red Bull uh member, because I I kind of wanted to have one person from each club. Um rangey, exciting fullback, got quite a good boot on him, so he can be a place kicker, can play across the back three, uh, elusive, quite tall, so I think he could suit kind of this modern high ball game. Uh I think he's had quite a few injuries this season, so he's not been able to get too much rugby in in the next gen. Um, but the fact that he stood out last year as an under-17 in the under-18 league, that's that's enough for me to think that he may be one that the Red Bulls kind of um promote and use as a success story in the years ahead. Now, number 14, Acer Stuart Harris. Now, this is someone that I was tipped off about about two, three years ago as being a really exciting scrum half at the Saracens Academy in the Alex Mitchell type mould. Uh, he's now part of the under-20s setup with England, and uh from what I've seen, I can see why people made those comparisons. Hype, it's a it's uh it's a good comparison to have, so can't not watch. Uh, and I'm very aware there's a few number nines. Uh oh no, only two. Two number nines. I thought I had more. Yeah, I took I subbed some out while I was putting the list together. But yes, he is one to watch. Number 15, Finn Charles, the under 18 England captain for some of the six nations when Treacy wasn't around. Uh done some captain for England uh in another tour of some sort. So he's one to keep an eye on. He's at the Leicester Tigers again, stood out as an under 17 last year, stood out this year for Leicester Tigers. He is a tall, rangy, athletic, lock slash back rower. So he is one to watch. And 16, just mention him, Declan Tracy. He's a centre, he looks like he's a real deal. Yeah, the usual captain for England. Uh, he looks like he is a very smart, clever player. Number 17, Lawrence Ogbonia. I had to get a prop in, and this boy, he's a unit. Again, look on, just go look on whichever social media you want and type in the name Lawrence Ogonia, and there's a clip of him absolutely bulldozing some people in some Academy rugby, and he is an absolute unit and can scrum. So he's one to watch in the propping department. Number 18, another one of your Gloucester Contingent Montreal gone, John O'Boulding. Yeah, Claire Balding's nephew, six foot ten. He's a go to a big old lad, six foot ten at eighteen years old. Um, and I remember from watching him, he looked like he's got a bit of leadership around about him. Uh, so it'll be interesting to see where well what club he ends up in a couple of years' time. Uh number 19, uh Kieran Hill. He's a hooker at Bristol with Bears. He had a lot about him when I've watched him play a few times. Bristol have a couple of good hookers coming through the system. I've opted for Kieran Hill because he's the older one of the ones that I'm kind of keeping an eye on, because the whole idea of this is that when one graduates, another one can step in. Uh, but Kieran Hill's the one to watch for me. And then rounding off another 20, Oli Batson X-Achiefs, a very good, combative, good-sized center that they've got down in Exeter, who's going to be plying his trade through kind of X to uni and kind of the intriguing system they have down in Exeter. Uh, again, another one that is one to watch. Now, that was a lot of information to absorb. That's a lot of names to try and remember. But if you follow the socials, if you follow the TikToks, the Instagrams, the YouTubes, and everything else, you don't need to worry about writing down these names because I will keep you up to date. I will come refer back to this list every now and then. When a player goes over the age of 20, they will be graduating into the R mob under 20 alumni, and then we will bring someone new in and we can discuss who is that person coming in. Who are we excited about that's not on this list? And this is the future for talent spotting, and then you know, we'll all get signed up to be scouts, and you know this is how our uh our scouting uh operation gets started to people. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, but obviously, there's gonna be a hell of a lot of players from lots of clubs who will go on and have glorious careers and not on this list. I know that there's about ten from Northampton Saints that I would love to put on this list, and and it's not just because I'm a Saints fan, it's because I genuinely think they have the talent. Um and I imagine there is that. But I imagine there's fans of every club who can probably think of ten from the clubs they like as well. So I fully understand there are gonna be players not on this list who are just as worth being excited about. So don't feel like this means that they are not worth watching as well. This is just the 20 that this channel and this podcast is gonna watch with a slightly closer eye and report back on and take credit when they go on and be really successful. That's what this is. Uh are you happy to put your name towards this list, Rory? Any disagreement at all? Any any names you want to throw out there as kind of a near miss or honourable mention?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:42

It gets my stamp of approval, and there's always been players you miss and don't mention. We could we could go on for hours, but absolutely gets my stamp of approval.

Final Thought And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_01 1:16:50

Fantastic. I enjoyed doing that, Rory. You know, yeah, this is this has been a labour start by street. Uh but I think for this week, Rory, I think that's the pod complete. Any other business for you before we go to Rory's final thoughts? Nothing from me. Well, you know what that means then, Rory. Let's have a nice, uh, lovely long pause and a well thought through and eloquent final thought from Rory.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

A uh famous alumni of uh once said, We're going off the rails on a crazy train.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:22

And on that note, it's been Ruxmalls and Overhauls. Hope you've enjoyed listening. We'll be back again next week with some European rugby nonsense. Um we've been Ruxmalls Overhaws. Make sure to follow, subscribe, like, comment, all that other stuff, and we'll be back next week. Ta