S2 Ep 31 - Prem Rugby Round 13 Unlucky For Some

Two finals in two weeks. One RFU vote that could change who gets a say in English rugby. And a Premiership weekend that lurches from a proper ding-dong at Sandy Park to scorelines that make you wince. We start with our own club world as the Westcliff Lions march into a league final and a cup final, talking leadership, young players learning the hard way and what finals day really feels like when your body is already in bits. 

Then we get into the bigger story: the RFU’s proposed governance reform and the special general meeting where members vote on modernising how the game is run. We dig into why separating the professional game from community decision-making is so contentious, what happens if the vote fails, and why “English rugby being English rugby” is not a plan. From there we move into Exeter Chiefs takeover rumours, what American sports investors might bring, and the renewed importance of salary cap rules if billionaire ownership becomes the norm. We even let ourselves dream about NFL-style structures, a league commissioner and whether a draft could ever work without wrecking academies. 

Finally, we review Gallagher Premiership Round 13: Bristol Bears blowing Gloucester away, Northampton Saints pinching it late against Exeter, Leicester Tigers running riot against Newcastle, Bath Rugby overpowering an injury-ravaged Harlequins, and Saracens putting a staggering 80+ on Sale Sharks. We close with a look at the Red Roses in the Women’s Six Nations and the real question behind dominance: how the rest of the sport catches up through investment and pathways like the PWR. 

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Transcript

Westcliff Lions Reach Two Finals

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Raps Bulls and Olds. That's right. It's the fans favourite rapping podcast. The fans favourite rapping podcast host. That's right, it's me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hello. Hello, listeners. Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I'm very well, thank you. And thank you for joining me with my prolonged vowels on that introduction. I thought I was trying something new. Gotta try something new. Yeah, I'm very well, thank you, Rory. Thank you for asking. Uh let me try and think of is there anything of note for me to talk about before we get into the big news coming from the Mighty Westcliffe RFC? Um, I haven't got anything. I don't think Rory, tell the listener the good news.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

The Lions are in the league final.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

They're going they're going for silverware. They're going all the way. They're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

We've got two finals in two weeks, David. We've got a league final this weekend and the cup final the week after.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Now you're not going to be like Arsenal and bottle it, are you? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

My boys have got balls like wolves. They'll never uh they'll never flake at the big occasion.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Well, tell me about the semi-final. Was it was it a match for the ages?

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It was a tough fought game. I think uh probably not uh not a feast for thine eyes, I would guess, of tense affair uh against Wansted 2s. Um very physical and a lot of uh a lot of hard graft in the in the tight spaces, but it did end 3931. So there were plenty of tries in the end. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Any for yours truly?

SPEAKER_02 1:41

None for yours truly. Yours truly did a lot of scrummaging though.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I saw I think I saw you were you were lining up at the old tighthead prop this week. So uh I was, yeah. Imagine the back is feeling it today.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Uh the back, the neck, the shoulders, the arms, the legs, yeah, they're all feeling it. Uh not helped by a real lack of rainfall in south east England. Um, another car park to play on. Fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, a lot of impact on the old body. But uh no, the boys the boys came through. We had a a back line at an average age of about 19, so that was uh that was a challenge in and of itself. A lot of very talented, promising youngsters coming through.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

The sort that like to run in lots of different directions away from where the forwards generally are.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

That sounds like yeah, yeah, yeah. Youthful exuberance and how I resent it. Yeah, yeah. No, it was uh it was a it was a really good game to play in, you know, really tough. Um you need these kind of tests for for the young lads to come through so they're uh battle hardened for bigger games to come. But yeah, say it was it was a it was a fairly brutal one on the old bod. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

And do you know who your opponents are in the final?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

We're playing Chelpsford again.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Oh, you beat them recently, didn't you? Or did they beat you?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

We beat them last week um at uh at their GAF. Now we're gonna have a finals day at Barkin RFC. The threes are in their league final, the twos are in our league final, so we're all going up on the coach. Lovely. Play one game after the other, and uh then we'll have a big bus session on the way home. So um if you happen to be on the uh on the 127 uh Saturday evening, uh expect to see some uh well, let's be honest, there'll be some bums in the window.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

And there we have people this week's podcast episode title Bums in the Window. Um well that's fantastic. Well, I look forward to finding out how the Lions go, hopefully with some silverware to show off uh kind of put the ice on the cake of what has been a fantastic season under your Captain Sea Rory. I'm sure the whole team, the whole club at Westcliff would agree that you this is just testaments to your leadership and uh aura. Yeah, I think aura's the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. There might be some other words that are banded around around the word aura, but we'll see. We'll see. Latmare of deeply unpleasant. Yeah, those sorts of words.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Uh, but again, let's not dwell, let's not, let's not put any curses, let's not think too much about the final Rory.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

We've got some other rugby to talk about. We've got Prem Rugby Round 13. We've got some rugby news stuff going on. So we'll start off with some news. We'll then run through Prem round thirteen. We'll have another round of Water Rancor because it's taking the internet by storm. Uh, and it will have a little touch on the Women of Six Nations, and uh we'll round off for for this week's pod, Rory. Hopefully, to you and the listener, that's something worth listening to. Um feels good to me. I I I'd hope so. I really would hope so.

RFU Governance Vote And Power Shift

SPEAKER_01 4:56

We'll start off news wise, Rory, and this is something that you uh you've brought to my attention. Uh it may not be something that's quite yet in the deep, dark um areas of the internet. Um it's not certainly not being spoken about on such websites as ruck.co.uk, which has got such on the ball journalism. Uh we're talking about the RFU yeah. We're talking about uh the RFU are holding a special GM, special general meeting.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Yes, yeah, I believe it's an SGM on uh on Friday this week, um, where they will be voting, the members will be voting on the plans that have been signed off by the council to modernise governance at the RFU. Um so from memory, the gist of this is that the RFU council is removed as a um decision-making slash a decision-approving body. So the professional game board will run the professional game independently, and there will be a separate board managing the community game. Okay, but effectively Dave Best from Best's second hand cars with his uh gravy stained tie that uh you know Little Pidlington third gave him for his stint as captain in 1987.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

And again, once again, big apology to Little Pidlington for being targeted here. Uh, I know this isn't the first time they've been brought up here.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Yeah, well, he can no longer have a say in uh how professional rugby's run in England. Um so so far the the the council turkeys have voted for Christmas, okay, but we are now at the uh where the rubber really meets the road, where the members uh have a vote. Um and unfortunately, the word is that this is going to struggle to get through the vote. Um interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Is there any any any murmurs as to why that would be?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Is it just members having a few mates on the council not wanting to well it yeah, it's it's ostensibly an aversion to the centralisation of power to the RFU. Imagine that having a governing body that had power to govern as a body. Yeah, I know um mad. The proposal it's not like the proposals remove community game power, they just separate the community game from being able to manage the professional game, which is you would think so. Um, but supposedly the members are less um infused by the idea. Um so hopefully the a bit of last-minute lobbying will get the proposals through, but unfortunately at the moment, um prospects are a little grim. And you know, this this proposal's taken over two years. Um the review took two years to put together. If they don't vote this through, there won't be another one for two years. Well, um, probably longer, probably five, ten years, which means England rugby will keep bumbling along as it is. But you have sure will not modernise. Yeah, you they have to modernize. Um, so we we can remain in hope that uh sense will prevail, but this is uh this is English rugby, so I'm not um holding my breath.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

No, sense and prevail don't often go hand in hand with English rugby. Um so so is this the same sort of thing that it was spoken about along with the franchising and removal of promotion relegation chatter. Is it is it similar in the sense of like it's tied in with that decision making or is it a separate sort of I believe the franchising decision is um is still set in stone.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

I don't think that can change now. I believe that decision's been made.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I'd hope so because they've announced it quite officially now.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless they were really trying to just force the issue through. Um, but I believe this won't affect that decision. What it will affect is whether future decisions still require council approval, which you know, I'm not saying you know, I I should caveat that it's I should I don't have absolute knowledge that every member of the council has no idea what they're doing is just a rank amateur. But I don't think rugby should have a say on what's going to affect the England national team. And I'm sorry, I just I just believe that.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Well, I I I think in the way the modern game's set up, I I think it's a fairly strong strong argument for it because why why should the elite professional aspect of the sport be held to account by, as you say, a very local level, very minor local team where the issues and what's important to them are so far from what is important to the elite game just separating it and having it having the oversight in two different ways just makes perfect sense. But hey, like we said, English rugby, stuck in the ways, and uh we'll continue to be our own worst enemy, I'm sure. Um but hey, we'll see. We'll see if anything comes out this Friday, if there is any announcement or any sort of press release and uh if any any falling out from that. But we'll uh we'll keep everyone up to speed. Second bit of well not news, but it's it's mainly firming up of rumour mill.

Exeter Chiefs Takeover And Investor Wave

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Uh we've touched it already last week, but there's now a name uh linked to the takeover of Exter Chiefs that we alluded to last week, where there's the special uh well, there's the EGM, the emergency general meeting taking place in May, uh where their 700 members will vote as to whether they will be taken over by American financier billionaire, Jim Foley, I think his name is, or Bill Foley, um, who is current owner of Bournemouth Football Club, owns a basketball team, I believe, owns a number of other football clubs in Europe. Uh so a serial sports investor. Yeah, not one of the worst American investors.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

It's another American investor, it's a consortium. Uh it's Black Knights, Black Knight Football Club, I think is their full name. Um they yes, they are an original club, I believe, was the Vegas Golden Knights in the NHL. Yes, um who they've taken to the Stanley Cup. So, I mean, I'm not an expert on um NHL by any stretch, but that sounds good. Yeah, yeah. Uh Bournemouth Football Club, uh, who are a very much success story for lower league football teams who to establish themselves in in the top division. Um they are invested in several other league clubs around around Europe.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

I I wonder if there's something in the proximity, because obviously Bournemouth isn't a bajillion miles away from Exeter. I think if you're going to get as close to Exeter as you can of a Premier League football club that there is, they are reasonably proximate to each other. So I wondered if there was something in that connection.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Quite possible. Um I think the Exeter business is fairly attractive. The the overall business includes, I think, the hotel and the conference centre, um, which in that part of the southwest is more or less uh got a corner of the market. Well, um for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Quite geographically, like any movers or shakers in the Devon or Cornell area, you're meeting up at the Exeter Conference Centre, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um so I think the overall business has its attractions. Um this is their first foray into Rogue Bay, unsurprisingly, but they come hot on the hills of obviously Red Bull, Newcastle, Dyson at uh Bath, um, yeah, man, at Saints Xander, is it?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, I can't keep forgetting his first name. I've been doing a Rory um and can't remember his first name, but it's not quite the same.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I think that's so what he that's but that's still a couple of million pounds of investment in shares, you know. It's still investment. Obviously, um you've got the uh the oranges at sale. Um, and I believe there are rumors that another team uh has had interest expressed.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

And um guessing you've got every orifice crossed that that's Gloucester. Uh because I know they've been searching for investment.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Well, that would be nice, but I I I don't hold out a hope that Gloucester will be the next one to be invested in, but you never know.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah, you never know.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Um, you know, Tony Rowe's been very vocal the last few weeks, I think probably um expressing his own confidence. Um you know, he's been touting things like inviting two Welsh clubs into the Prem, uh expanding the Prem to at least 12 teams, probably 14. Yeah, I believe the the overall plan is to get to 20 teams in the franchise, whether that's uh two franchises in the same way that uh NFL work is in two conferences, or whether that be a two-tier league system. The latter I think is what I would probably prefer, but yeah, yeah, you know, there there's there's uh a lot of water to pass on the bridge before we get to that point. Um he's I believe still planning to stay on at Exeter in uh from a management capacity, either as chair or on the board. Um, but uh no, Exeter will have new owners, um, which is uh it's it's an interesting decision. You know, I think the business is sound in Exeter, but it's it's Exeter's not the biggest city, it's not even the biggest city of the teams left of have attracted investment. Um it might just be down to proactivity on Tony Rowe's part to find um find investors, but it is a sign that people are looking at the Prem uh and they are looking at the potential there. So it's all in all, I think it overall it speaks to a really good um a really good sign for where for the direction the Prem's taking uh at a macro level. There's obviously there's always gonna be a bit of reticence for me for um big American investors coming into a sport they don't know what um whether they understand the game, whether they have a sustainable plan for Exeter, or whether they're just gonna CVC it and just put the investment in and sit around and watch. Um but I think overall it's probably it's probably in the pot of good news for Prem this year.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, I think that now brings Prem clubs, I think five, four or five of them now all have billionaire owners. Um which, you know, is a bit of a different story to say four or five years ago. I suppose the thing for me is I think this makes the whole argument around the need for a salary cap and like really flipping on its head the narrative around Prem Rugby in recent years about how important it is we have that because we're we're looking at down the barrel at a league in the very near future where there's going to be a number of clubs that can genuinely very easily afford to spend up to the cap and if they wanted to, can spend a lot more. Um and we may touch on similar themes in the games coming up, but one of the reasons the Prem should continue to be an exciting competition and exciting investment is how competitive it could be and should be, often notwithstanding this week. Um there's legitimate worries out there of some people about how these investors are all well and good, but are we gonna start to see a real separation uh between those with billionaires and those without uh and what that does mean for those without and yeah, obviously that's all hypothetical at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

There's always gonna be a concern about the haves and haves nots in any sport, and you know, you can you can see the um the effect that's had in football. What I would say is if you actually transpose it to something like NFL, where there is more collective bargaining, there are salary caps, there are structures in place like the draft system to ensure competitiveness, there are ways to do this that prevent the leagues splitting between those that are competitive and those that aren't too drastically. I my gut feel is that Prem will take Prem Rugby will take more and more inspiration for the NFL to ensure that you know there have been talked of things like a league commissioner.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I I I do still dream of a day where there's a draft, Rory. I do still dream of that day. Well You can see you can see it moving in that direction with how they're setting up the academies.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

You can see it moving in that direction. What I would say is if you move to a draft system, does that incentivize or disincentivise teams to invest in their academy more or less? Or do they go, well, why would we invest in an academy? We can just draft players in, or do you need to make all the academies independent bodies? Do you need to just tie them into universities? You know, it's it's it's difficult because obviously the US has the advantage of the really strong, thriving college system that takes care of player development and the the to you know to another extent the high school system. So player development isn't on the professional game to manage. At the moment, youth player development is almost entirely down to professional teams to to invest in and manage and you know to build those kind of homegrown talents, which is something we love about the academy system, and it's a particular passion of yours, David. I don't want to get rid of it, that's for sure. Yeah, so what would a draft mean for that?

SPEAKER_01 17:49

True, yeah. It's a fair it's a fair argument. I suppose the the counter maybe that it could all just be done through credits, so that if you produce the ones that are performing best and go through to get international honors and stuff, you get increased credits uh to your salary cap and you get reductions, so then you can afford more in your squad. I don't know, something something along those lines. Or whether you get first refusal, or you know, there's protected picks and things like that that you can get.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Um there's there's maybe there's maybe a way to do it. I mean, you know, maybe one day in the future academies will all be centrally governed and they won't be governed by the individual pro teams at all. Who knows? Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 18:26

It's all hype it's all hypothetical, but we do like to talk about these sorts of things every now and then, don't we, Rory? We certainly do. We do like to just dream of another of another way of things. Uh and as mentioned on numerous of these episodes podcasts, we are still available for any consulting to the RFU or any organisation wishing to interact with the code. We can be joint commissioners. More than happy to share the commissioner role, Rory. So uh we'll uh we'll await the phone call on that one, along with all the other phone calls we're still waiting for. Um I have a feeling I haven't paid the phone bill, because that's the only explanation. Uh nor do we have a phone line. One for me to ponder on. Uh but I think news-wise, I think that's it, Rory, for this week that I can think of off the top of my head. Uh although we could talk a smidge about maybe Finn Russell going to uh Eddie Hearn, but I wanted to touch on it a little bit in the Bath section. Um so I'll I'll keep my powder dry for now. Um because you know, I know Bath fans love listening to me talk about Bath Rugby. Uh

Why Premiership Competitiveness Is Slipping

SPEAKER_01 19:27

before we dig into the game story, I think there's a general cautionary tale that we need to take from this week. Uh touching on what we spoke about before. Spoiler alert listeners, the uh the results this week are not great from a competition point of view. Because if you were to remove just one of the games from this week, the uh the winning margin across the four other games uh counts as all four being really shellackings, and it's really not in keeping with this narrative that we keep trying to be really optimistic about about the really competitive Gallagher Prem competition when we have a week of games this week where we have some teams getting put away for 80 points, and um it's not ideal.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

So it's not been a good it's not been a good week for for the competitive of the league, festival. Um I would I I think it boils down to I mean ultimately, let's be frank about it. It's the bottom four teams not turning up this week. Um with the slight caveat actually that I I will caveat that with Harley Quinn. We'll go into a bit more bit more detail later on. I think there's more nuance to that result. Certainly Sale, Gloucester, and Newcastle can have no real complaints about the results in their games. No, it's uh and to be honest, they were genuinely poor performances. It's it's not like there's nothing to play for without at the bottom. There's obviously the chance against Champions Cup rugby. Is that providing the incentive that it used to? Maybe not, because it doesn't feel like anyone down there's willing to grasp grasp the nettle and and bow for it. Um to be honest, I mean, particularly in the case of Sale and Newcastle in particular this weekend, it didn't feel like they wanted to be there at all. Um I I think this was a this was a poor weekend for the league, really, in from that sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, the the murmurings I've been hearing around Sale and Newcastle is that this has this has been the week where players without contract extensions have been given the uh the heads up whether they are likely to get a contract or not. Right. And perhaps we've seen an a little bit of reaction from squads uh to that sort of news. I think with Newcastle in speci like specificity. Uh I I imagine the numbers quite high uh of kind of player turnover. Uh and maybe that's why we've seen reaction. And that may also be the reason why we're s certainly in sales perspective, they did a very interesting squad selection where it was very focused on kind of players of tomorrow rather than the squad players. Um so that might have something to do with it. And it's because perhaps these are two sides that have nothing to play for, so they're just getting their ducks in order early so they can go on holiday a bit earlier. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Um it's certainly like a few are thinking of the beach. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Um now we're gonna start going into the games Rory and I know we've we've preambled this and I'm very aware what the first fixture is.

Bristol Run Riot Against Gloucester

SPEAKER_01 22:28

And it's really unfortunate because it seems Gloucester quite often gets to be the first fixture we talk about. So you're you're quite often first up in the running order and it's not been a great season for Gloucester. No. Are we preparing ourselves for another Rory rant or is there any anything close to positiveness positivity sorry uh that you can draw out of this game which as already mentioned was a little bit of a shellacking by their close rivals Bristol.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Honestly David I don't have the energy to rant about them after this one. It was just so disappointing to watch um to the point where you just probably almost for the first time this season I I would say I've probably given the club more grace than most in the Gloucester faithful most probably would as a Gloucester fan. This is one where I watched it and I went something's just not working here lads. So I'll I'll start off Bristol were phenomenal by the way they were they were just great and it wasn't like they were in second gear they they they were just operating at a different level the whole game. I was thinking about and I think Bristol to me of all the teams in the in the Prem I think play the most French style of rugby their ability to mix it in the tight and then play just some phenomenal phases is um I I think I think the most similar to to a top 14 side out of any of the of the Prem sides they they the other premise the variety they do within each phase is quite impressive. Yeah they they have the ability to generate quick ball from a standing start you know the likes of um Fitz Harding you know just his ability to his work rate obviously is phenomenal and it you know it and it's well storied and it's well deserved to be to be praised I think his ability to recognise when the time is to pick and go and generate a quick stop start even if you don't get loads of um meters beyond the beyond the um the contact he just generates quick ball um james I think is it James Dunn and Joe Battley the second rows well done Rory two points well on me. In the engine room just I thought they were excellent. Owen at six I thought was excellent as well Grandona was just nuggety and annoying and uh constantly good throughout the whole game George Klosker had one of his best games that I've seen him play I think he's really coming on so so good.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

And I think the way he he seems to really work symbiotically with Ellis Gens really well.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

They seem to compliment each other and they I think his turnover on their own triline when we were we were actually playing some good phases um was was superb and you know his scrummaging's really strong now um you know there's it's not um at the realms of possibility that he's gonna get the call up to the England squad because he's he's right up there in the in the tired stakes at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I I think it needs to be looked at because I when I was looking at the stats just for the season so I I I I make my own stat around kind of um regularity of tackle. So basically it's like how many minutes are is there between each tackle you make on average just to give an impression of your defensive work rate. He's up there in the top ten with the best like he's up there with Will Evans and Kenningham like his his work rate and defence is remarkable for a tighter prop.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah um I'd be interested to see the comparison with um Afo for Gloucester because as talented a player as he is um and as much potential as he's got I just don't think he's working hard enough at the moment um and you can say that to be honest in this game you can say that about a few um a few gloss players he's I don't think he gets his hands on the ball enough I don't think he puts enough hits in defence it just feels like the game passes him by a lot of the time um it's a shame because he's got all the talent in the world I just want to see him involved as much as possible um because when he is he's brilliant but in this game he just wasn't well if he wasn't involved obviously scrummaged well but yeah and that's great don't be wrong you know scrummaging well against Ellis Genj is to be commended and he did and he did scrummish well against Ellis Genj. You know he I think they were evens on penalties.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Is he becoming a bit of a scrum merchant though it's like is he is he focusing too much on that part of his game because let's give you reference to the stat. Klosker's is he does attack it every tackle every four every four minutes and three quarters of a minute so whatever that is Afo is every over every six and a half minutes so nearly 50% less effective yeah and you know it's not like Gloucester have loads of uh loads of possessions we had about 29% possession in this game.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah um no but closer was excellent I thought Ellis Genge was really really busy with the ball in hand Oggrade's been good all season he was good again his darts his his his set piece work is for you know not the biggest hooker in the world is excellent um he's another one who I think does with the with the hooker birth really up for grabs at the moment I do think Oggrade deserves a shot I think I think under a different coach we would have seen more of him in an England shirt I think um Tom Jordan the the George Barton charge down aside uh Tom Jordan was excellent this game just managed to get really well he's really physical as well he's really physical defender you know he he is he's a big lad um and he he really makes use of it um J VR Bernard Jansa van Rensberg just nails again just both sides of the ball excellent um cuts really good lines yeah makes tackles at times that are really frustrating when it's your team in attack he just cuts down he just he stops attacks so well um and then you've got Ibertoy and Revuvo outside them who are just who are just stardust. Ibertoy is just well they're both just busy they're they're all over the pitch. You just don't know where they're gonna pop up. Yeah I think if you just watch uh their work rate the the effort they put in to make themselves available on either wing regardless of which direction of play the phases are going like that's why that's what I imagine it's one of the reasons why Bristol is so hard to stop whether they're in full flow because sometimes it looks like they have more players on the pitch than you it's because of the work rate those those wingers are putting in uh yeah they pop everywhere I mean Ibatoy the amount of times he's he either steps in at nine or he steps in as first receiver yeah yeah um I think his work on the high balls really get the you know Bristol have identified this plan of can combating the high ball by having the retreating winger collecting it so your man in the backfield's there for to pick up the scraps that seems to be working really really well for them I'm expecting I expect more teams to to adapt that yeah um but look I I Bristol went actually I cannot fault their performance in the slightest um Gloucesters I can fault pretty easy pretty heavily I mean it it started bad you know Bristol start off they go 25 phases off you know off the first um line out and Marmion scores and Gloucester they can't slow the ball down and it's hard right Bristol I'd say Bristol are really good it'd be hard for anyone to slow that ball down but they just they weren't doing anything slow the ball down there wasn't any dominant hits there was no jackling you know there was it just felt like they were passive in defence that every collision was really passive Bristol were just getting um seemed to be getting ground constantly and in you know in the end the dam was just always going to break um said Blake's then binned after four minutes as well for a high shot it's I think slightly harsh but ultimately probably the right call um and it set the tone for Gloucester's discipline throughout the whole game discipline was abysmal three yellow cards you know that would have been I mean I will go to go into bat for um Josiah Robers Giro his yellow card was so harsh yeah it's not a slap down if someone throws the ball into you he hadn't moved his arm to slap it it's just it gets thrown into him and it happens to hit his arm as he's gone to to do a cover tackle it's just not everything needs to be a yellow card it's not necessarily a penalty if someone just throws the ball at you that that one was harsh but no complaints about Charlie Atkinson's one that was absolutely yellow card just killing the ball under under severe pressure um you know Fitzharding's try just comes from pen after pen after pen. Revuvu's try Ibtoy makes a break off well BJ VR makes the break and feeds it to Ibatoy straight off a kickoff after uh Revu's try beforehand where they sort of half charge down on Keelan and uh Keelan Englefield and they find the space they go one way they go the other find the space at the left of Revu just um uh just canters in really fairly unopposed um you know we're the worst starters in the league in the first quarter yeah that's um it's a theme that's kind of been there throughout the season really isn't it and it really emerged in the last couple of games as well I think I I would think we were probably um up there towards the top of the worst performers in the in the first quarter in the last two games I think we've conceded seven tries across the two quarters it's just dismal you're not going to win anything going that far behind no absolutely absolutely you know um uh sorry I should say the Fitzhardin drive was was chalked off um for the for the knock on at the mole um he did score later off the tap penalty very easily to be honest it's just the space was created so easily tom Jordan scores off of an intercepts off a really poor pass from Charlie Atkinson the the accuracy with the ball in hand you know it's very difficult to win a game of rugby with really low possession I think yeah first half in particular I think we had 29% possession it wouldn't have been much higher across the whole game yeah when we had the ball there were moments when you could sort of see where the attack was was going you know we had some good attacks particularly in the first half but the actual skills accuracy was poor just you know and players that are better than that you know the likes of Charlie Atkinson the likes of Seb Atkinson um you know throwing balls that went to feet throwing balls that went behind people just poor poor skills yeah um you know that some of some of it's massively improved you know our lineup looks a thousand times better than it did at the start of the season yeah from where it started yeah from where it started you know it was awful at the start of the year it was awful at the start of the season and it's now it's now genuinely pretty reliable yeah uh our mall looks better our mall defence looks better you know I I know Bristol's um Ogre scored off the back of a mall tribe but that's actually just a very well it's a really good take by Fitz Harding right at the back right at the absolute edges and Gloucester have competed yeah yeah uh and we're right to it's just a fantastic take and actually it's so far back if he collects it and they hit them all it's virtually impossible to stop that. Yeah yeah yeah so I don't blame the mall defence for that you can blame everything that leads up to it in terms of giving field position oh yeah for sure the actual mall defence for that one is just it's just really really well executed for Bristol. Yeah sometimes you just have to tip your hat to well executed rugby yeah you do um and you know ultimately by that point you know it it was a it was broadly irrelevant but you know you could say Bristol I think still have the most effective lineup mall in the league and Gloucester defended their speedy effectively for most of the game that that instance aside um a scrum's still pretty reliable um but they look like they haven't trained with the ball in hand which they've had so much time they you know we went out of the the champions cup at the first opportunity we went out of the Prem Cup pretty early yeah what's been lots of what have you been doing yeah there's been lots of time to have the boys on the paddock you know sharpening the skills and and getting more fluid in attack and you know I know there's been a lot of injuries throughout the the year we've not been able to have a stable back line at all but I've got limited sympathy with that because really no one has you know Bristol have dealt with serious injuries yeah and you know they're still able to maintain really good cohesion so I don't have any sympathy for it. There's been some you know Trevor Woodman's been announced that he's moving to onto he's gonna go um to Connell and um join Stuart Lancaster's team it looks like Brett Deakin's coming in uh to join the coaching team from from Leicester um that's the rumour he's it's been announced he's leaving Leicester so the heavy is coming to Gloucester which you know it's potentially a very good appointment I think be a forwards coach though but and I know that the coaching team is all under real review as they and to be honest they should be um and I don't like to say it because I really like Skibbs I like James Lightfoot Brown you know I I think I like Don Waldock. I think they're all young coaches with real potential to to make an impact in the game but at the moment Gloucester look poorly coached and if you look poorly coached there's really only one place you can look to to find the the problems um you know I think there's been lots of bad planning and bad execution with Gloucester in terms of how many players came in and out last summer um you know there's there's a question mark about quality uh the the the quality levels in some areas there's a lot of young players in some areas but by and large it it just boils down to Gloucester look really really poor and poorly coached at the moment and I can't say fairer than that at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah I I'd be really intrigued to know what's written in Chris Boyd's little notebook and kind of what what's on it what's on the top of his to-do list um I think if I was to try and cheer you up Rory I was I was having a look at kind of the makeup of squads for next season there's a lot better balance to Gloucester squad next season when you look at it in the grand scheme of things.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Well as as you know David next year's always Gloucester's yeah yeah yeah so but uh you know injuries permitting uh hopefully that that feel that that feel you've got at the moment this season hopefully might have been addressed with uh yeah look you know run run down some of the things I've mentioned there you know being passive in the collision well you bring Dewey Late Jack Morgan John Klein Joe Joyce into that pack your collision suddenly starts to look a bit more meaty yeah inability to slow the ball down because you're not jacking or Jack Morgan's the best in the British arts on that yeah um but you said young players in the back like you bring in Dan Robson who's got kind of two decades of experience yeah yeah so there is a there is potentially a chinkleite at the end of the tunnel but it looks real far away at the moment and the rest of the season you know it's it's a bit of a best of the rest question between those bottom four sides. Our advantage is probably that we've got sale and Newcastle at home we've already done the double over Quinn's so you know there's a reasonable opportunity for us to to come seventh it would be I would say it's undeserved but it's undeserved by all four teams and someone's got to come seventh.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

It's a race to the best of the rest and maybe maybe Gloucester are best placed for that yeah but it's it best best of the rest looks very distant to the rest. Yeah I think that is uh incredibly fair to say yeah that there's not much more to say about that I thought subbed up all the points really Bristol were fantastic and uh Gloucester less so um moving on to the next game Rory I'll slightly go out of sync with the synchronicity just because I'd rather talk about the 305 kickoff than the 3pm kickoff if you'd allow it.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah

Saints Steal It Late At Exeter

SPEAKER_02 38:07

let's let's because I I really really enjoyed watching this game.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

I'm sure you did as well for for other reasons but um Exodus Northampton the one really good close game of the weekend and it and it was a hell of a ding dong yeah hell of a ding dong always is always between Saints and Exeter uh and I as I said in my predictions going in this was a very much head versus heart around kind of where I saw this one going because Saints do not have a good track record at Sandy Park. They also do have a lot of difficulty playing Exeter at times and uh thankfully this week it went with my heart it went with the Saints the Saints came out the top yeah everyone was writing this off so it made it even sweeter.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Well look I I um I thought Chiefs would probably win this one just they're I you know they're obviously in really good form um they got a very good track record at home um I based it on that it was no real slight against Saints I just thought I think Chiefs will win this one at home but um to win it in the 80th minute with that Finn Smith try um also the fact that he steps and gases many Fay Webosa's a really good finish yeah um is excellent I mean to to I guess to take the the game as a whole so the Chiefs came came absolutely storming out the gates I mean maybe Saints were slightly slow starters but the Chiefs absolutely stormed out the gates so Fay Webosa scores after um after two minutes and Willrig scores after seven um there were lots of really good ball movement at the line uh from from Chiefs um particular standout in the first half in particular but really throughout the whole game Greg Fizzlau was superb um he when Saints are in attack he gets a really good intercept really well read intercept in you know not an easy place for a forward to to attempt an intercept and he gets the assist for Will Riggs try and he made some really massive tackles I think it's one on I'm not sure if it was slight home it was one of the Saints but he absolutely levered someone really early on um loads of carrying the ball you know and he just makes ground constantly um and then on top of it he got uh a uh won a jackal penalty on on his on him try line as well to to stop what looked like a pretty certain Saints score yeah he was he was I would say in that first half in particular head and shoulders the best player on the pitch um he was absolutely excellent um yeah we've been waxing waxing lyrical about fizzlow all season and yeah he keeps delivering yeah I think he's gotta he's got to get a shot internationally at some point because he's just that good yeah yeah um Saints punch back really really well uh it's uh the Mitchell try after 14 so it's it starts with needs some lovely elusive run the the tar the ginger flash he's back some lovely elusive uh running yeah but absolutely back with the ban steps away from two tacklers then Litchfield also gets um player of the match in this game again phenomenal um probably deserved as the being on the winning team it would have been between him and Fizzler probably for me um cuts a really good undersline um for the offload and then feeds in uh Mitchell to finish it off um so yeah you know really good start to game that first sort of 15 minutes or so and then it's for the rest of the half I would say by and large it's probably Chiefs quite backs against the wall defence but really really good defence very physical saints probably victims of a bit of profligacy um slash have victims of really good chiefs defence um but there's some nice moments in there you know Callum Chick's 5022 really lovely moment lovely moment love that um I I thought it's it's not it's it's almost tried to say at this point because we said it a lot this season but you really miss Curtis Langdon your lineup really really struggled without Langdon and Coles the line out starts to really struggle for Saints um yeah particularly you know when you're up against someone as good as Zamboni you know you're gonna yeah you do you do look at that Saints lineup and when when it's Ed Prouse and Tom Lockett who I would say both had really really good games on the well they're not athletic locks are they? So they're not quick to get up in the air. They're tighter locks both of them are tighter locks and then you've got Van Der Mesht on the bench who's the tightest of tighter locks I don't think we've ever I don't think we've ever or will ever lift Van Demesh to the line out no no I and I wouldn't try it I think you would hurt yourself. It's so you know unusually for Saints probably lacking a bit of athleticism up front at the moment which is um which is an unusual situation for Saints to be in I will say Craig Wright looks really good in the loose and you know I think Manny Jogan when he has his hands on the ball is really destructive as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

I think he did went well at the scrum as well I thought of Jogen I think he's come on leap I think he's quietly come on leaps and bounds this season.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah he he he looks he looked really really handy there um but yeah the the line out it's it's a slightly different story for for Saints from who are usually pretty good set piece team but they just about managed to claw it back to 14 all you know two minutes into overtime at the end of the first half just finally find the space in the red zone which it's really unusual for Saints to struggle to find space you normally identify it so well and I think it's just a again testament to how well I think it was X X to suffocate to suffocate yeah yeah and they and they put you under they their their um speed off the line in defence that was it put you under a lot of pressure um it was really really impressive and you know I think I I would say for 20 minutes of that first half Saints were well on top in terms of possession and territory but Chiefs just just would not um let you in was a really really impressive bit of um uh bit of defending um and then you know so for the first Of 15-20 minutes in the second half, it's a pretty much a stalemate. Yeah. Um, I'd say probably Saints marginally still on top, but not really. I wouldn't say loads of clear cut opportunities, just lots of pressure. Yeah, yeah. Um, but uh Chiefs, it's really good, it's really good phases from Chiefs, but actually, again, very good defence from Saints on this occasion, right up to the point where Hayden Wood cuts a lovely line, actually carves through and puts um Campbell Riddle through. Campbell Riddle, by the way. Um, I'm becoming a rapid fan of his. Good with the ball in hand. Uh, there was one tackle he made in the corner, I think, on Sliderhoe, um, where he bounced him, um bounced him off the pitch, which was really, really good. He doesn't look the most physical player, particularly when you compare him to Paul Brown Bampo, Mane Fever Boso.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

But he's quietly he threw himself a belt. He threw himself a belt, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yeah, he's also a lot quicker than I thought as well. Yeah, he is quick, really, really quick. It's a similar dap to um Oli Hassel Collins, isn't it? Yeah, so that's that kind of that kind of shape and style of player, but deceptively powerful. Um, then uh Fairbanks scores is a really good bit of identification from from Saints on this one. So Manifer Boso gets binned for a slap down. Um try aside, I thought he had a poor game for Oboso.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

I thought he was other than the try, um pretty annoying.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Knocked it on a couple of times, didn't really make an impact with ball in hand. Um unusually poor game by his standards.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, we haven't seen um we haven't seen their magic from him for a little while yet, I'll argue. I know he's had a lot of injury problems, so it's kind of to be accepted.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

Feels like he's yet to warm back up, but you know, he's probably in a similar lead in to be similar position that Slightholm's in, I'd argue.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

It's just not quite hitting the levels that we got used to so comfortably. Um what do you what do you make of the people that uh argue that it wasn't a slap down by Faywa Boso? And it wasn't a knock-on.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Well it goes with one, it goes with one hand and it it looks like it goes forward, so I don't really know what the I find it an interesting argument that people have tried to make as well.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Um but I try I try to get your view, Rory, because you know, as a Saints fan, I often see things in certain ways. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't just being a one-eyed Saints fan.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

I think it was 100% it was uh it was a yellow card. Um and you know it was it was poor from him, it was a but it was a big mistake. Yeah um because straight after so you uh kick kick to the lineup and then um I think it's Finn Smith, wasn't it? Puts the chip in behind because he realizes that there was no sweeper. No sweeper because they've got the they've got Varney up in the defensive line, I think. And uh Paul no, it wasn't Paul Rombrh, but uh Woodburn, Ollie Woodburn, um gets his positioning wrong, um, and just leaves a gap for Furbank to to collect. And it's it's a really good it's it's poor offensive setup, it's really good identification from from Saints. Um on Woodburn quickly as well. Like gutted to see him get an injury. Um he's been really excellent. It's a shame that he's um he he came off an injury because he's been quietly brilliant for Chiefs all season.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

And I think Chiefs might rule letting Josh Hodge go early to Newcastle Red Bulls. I don't think they got a fullback on their own.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Not really. I think Riddle probably the one could have covered that, or possibly Hayden would, but especially put Henry Slow there at a pinch bit, but you you'd miss having him at the line. Um yeah, possibly a bit of a miscalculation from from Chiefs there, but maybe the maybe the the feeling between the two wasn't um wasn't right, and they thought better just to let him go.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Um yeah, when that happens, there's usually good reason for it.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, enough said probably.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Um but yeah, so so from there, uh I would say Saints get back on top again, really. Um so uh Pollock scores uh well Kemini has a has a try ruled out for a knock-on. Um Fraser Dingle did his best to butcher it already, so it's probably probably fair enough. Um but it's probably the I think it was the first time that Chiefs' defence looked a bit fallible when they were down to 14. They got a bit narrow and left Tommy Freeman with a lot of space down the right. Um Dingle nearly makes uh makes a hash of it when he's got a clear run in. Um Kemini finishes it but gets chalked for an earlier knock on at the um at the box kick. Yeah, yeah. Um but then uh yeah, Saints get back down the get back down into the red zone. Uh Campbell Riddle's binned for killing the ball on the triline, probably the correct decision. It looked it was a bit cynical. Um tap and go. Uh and Henry Pollock doing Henry Pollock things absolutely bounces Harvey Skinner, who's a good defender, he's a big lad, bounces him, finishes it off. Love nice little celebration, you know, giving it the old uh clay pigeons. Sort of thing I imagine he did uh growing up at Stowe School. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um and then but you know, Saints sort of their own worst enemy, really. Slade misses a kick to corner for uh for a penalty. Furbank fields it and then gets Paul Brown Bampo really good work rate following up the kick as Furbank as after he's fielded the penalty goes to clear it, gets charged down on PvP. Slightholm's kick. Uh was it Slythe? Oh sorry, I thought it was um I thought it was Furbank. No, Furbank.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Furbank was the one that was uh running back to try and stop.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

That's that's right, yes. Sorry. Um yeah, uh Slightholm maybe not known for his kicking skills. It wasn't a good kick. It was a poor one to get charged down from from that distance. Um but yeah, PBB finishing it off. Um credit to the Saints, took the opportunity, went lots of phases, lots of very good defence from from Chiefs, but um slight sweeping move, Fraser Dim will get kind of the half break, uh offloads to Finn Smith, who steps and gases Fay Webso, who probably should have done better, yeah. Um finishes it off. And all in all, uh you know, if if you didn't get this, if you didn't watch it, listeners. I hope this that kind of recap gives you a sense of what a kind of back and forth absorbing game it was. Yeah, it was an absolute humming. This one was a real pleasure to watch, actually. A weekend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Compared to Friday nights and uh the other games I've uh I've had to watch for this week, this one was uh was a real enjoy uh yeah. We needed one.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

We needed one that was uh good to watch. And I'm pretty sure I saw towards the end Finnsmith taking the mick out of Fayo Boso for the step and having they had a good old laugh about it because yeah, surely no one was expecting that. I know Finn Smith isn't well, he's not he's not a slouch, but he's not the quickest to fly offs. Uh he left Fayo Boso in his dust. I thought it was brilliant, then what a what a lovely try to finish off the game. Uh and obviously, as a Saints fan, to come away with five points at Sandy Park in this stage of the season. Huge result, absolutely huge. Um, and kind of I think we're we're one win away from securing the playoffs, and probably only two or three wins away from securing top two. So uh it's all it's all looking at.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Big game this weekend, though. We will probably do projections later on. Um but you know that it's there are no easy run-ins, uh, but your next three games are tricky. Pretty punchy.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that makes or breaks where we where we land.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah, Bath Tigers, then Bristol.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Um, you get a nice soft landing with uh Gloss and Quinn's, but uh we come back to Earth with a nice run a nice comfortable run-in towards the playoffs.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

Yes, yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, this is a this is a massive result. Um, and it's probably when you look at how well Chiefs have gone this season, you know, this only the fourth game they've lost all season. Um it might I think it might be the only one they've lost at home. Um you can, you know, yeah given you Drew against them as well at the start of the season, you know, it it's it's a real marker of of Saints to to have won this one and probably bouncing back from European disappointment as well.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Well Andre rotated the squad and carrying quite a lot of injuries. Like I've I'm like it's it's up there with the uh away win against Bar for me. Um kind of in the unexpected, but really you know just full credit to kind of the Saints squad, which last season was one of the biggest weaknesses was just not having the depth. I think we're s we're seeing this season that the depth is more there than it ever has been. Uh and our squad players, like the the the calibre of performance that they're able to put out there. So the the likes of your Ed Prowse and your Tom Lockets and uh Tom Litchfield, who's kind of the stand and centre, put in such huge performances when they're called upon and they're becoming so reliable. Um it's really good to see. And you know, it was a great game of rugby to watch. So I'm glad we had that to talk about. Uh we do have three other games to talk about.

Tigers Pile On Newcastle Misery

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Obviously, there's talking points about we need to discuss it all three of them, but probably not going to dig too deep into the nuances of the next three games because um not a huge amount of talk Quinn's bar for a bit, but uh the the Leicester Newcastle game, which was the 3 pm kickoff, for example, just um just a bit of to be honest, just quite an embarrassing blowout, really, um, for Newcastle.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Um I think the the talking the only talking points are on this one, I mean the leather barrow red card, some fully deserved, yeah, really, really nasty bit of work from a player that we really like and has been one of the big shining lights for this team this season. But that was a uh a nasty uh a nasty hit there on um Hamish Watson. Um Gabriel Hamer Webb, well done to anyone who picked him in their fantasy team, getting five tries this week. Um yeah, hell of a return. You know, of the two wingers there, uh Hamel Webb and Radwan, uh seven tries between them, but you wouldn't have guessed that Hamer Webb would have got five of those, but he's been not a bad return, eh? What a story. Yeah, for a player that's bounced around quite a bit and never quite looked like they were going to fulfil their promise. He's starting to look like a proper, proper player, and obviously now an international.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

He was at Saints at preseason on a temporary contract at the start of the season. Yeah. Starting to look like maybe one that we maybe should have persevered with.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah, and you know, you never know, you never quite know what the story is behind some of these players that don't seem like they're settling. Maybe you just need just needs the right coach who's who finds the right messaging for them, maybe. Um it's you know, these things are never, you know, player players are human, so they're fallible. There's always um more to it than than maybe you'd you'd think, but he he has not really looked back since being at Tigers, um, you know, rocketing up the the try-scoring charts obviously after this weekend, but he's he'd already bagged a few. And given he was probably brought in as sort of emergency cover, starting to look more and more like someone who's going to be challenging for starting berths, even at full, you know, at full strength. Um Adam Rabman get bagging a bagging a brace in the last 10 minutes as well. Um against his old club. Good to see him back. Yeah, Jamie Blameyer getting two against his old club as well. Um, and George Martin getting back out on the pitch after 14 months off, you know, so that's really good to see. Hopefully, he can stay fit and get a run of fitness um between now and the end of the season, putting himself back in England contention. Um, to be honest, even if we were to go into the the tries aren't that much to talk about, you know. It's good finishing from Homer Webb but it's by and large, it was simple finishing, really. Um Blomeyer got scored two good tries, but I think both offline at more such off the top of my head. Parise gets uh um uh an intercept and a run-in.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Um it's just it was just a tale as older time of men versus boys almost like Newcastle where there's nothing races.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Just not not even slightly at the races. They didn't they didn't look like well, you mentioned obviously that there's a few there's probably a few boys who've um missed out on contract extensions. Obviously, you know, feel for them. There's a that's not easy. You're a pro player and you're now faced with the prospect of being unemployed. Um, and that is that is a tough position to be in, and it's you know, there's more to it than you know letting down fans or whatever else. You know, that I I completely sympathise with lads there. What I you know, I suppose on the other side of that though, you have to be brutally honest and say it's results like this that are why players don't get contracted. Yeah, yeah. That's that's the brutal nature of the cutthroat nature of pro sports. There's no room for sentimentality, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

And on performances like that, you can't blame coaches for not wanting them to stick around if they're if that's what they're getting paid to deliver. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Um yeah, probably not one to not one to dwell on for us or for Newcastle. Um, obviously, a nice run out for Tigers, you know, nice thing to to beef up their um points difference, you know, their their good form continues. Um they're they're looking good shouts to really challenge for the title this year. Um I would say the well, really the top five teams in the league could all conceivably win. Yeah, yeah. There's there's no um obvious winner out of those top five. Um, obviously Saints and Bath are the top two teams um and sensibly out on their own, results-wise, quality-wise, but you'd never write off Tigers, particularly against Bath and Saints, you know, with it being such a historic rivalry. I think Chiefs are good enough to give anyone a game, and we know Bristol, if they put it together on the day, home or away, they are a fucking handful. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Um to put it lightly, to put it lightly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

So um, you know, it that that race for the race for the title, you know, we're obviously getting right into the business end of the season, and it's a shame there've been some poor results this this week, but the actual race for the title itself looks extremely exciting.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

And I completely agree, I think any of the five teams have the ability to win it on their day, which does make it exciting because I think in the past it's always been a bit of a one or two horse race, like you kind of know who's gonna win it really. This year it's really hard to call. Uh, because we've seen this year Saints and Leicester have beaten Bath, Bath have beaten Northampton, um like everyone's beating everyone. Bristol are an eternal banana skin for Saints and numerous other teams. It's uh it's really interesting. And uh well, we look forward to that. Moving on from the Leicester Newcastle game, next game, it's probably a little bit more talkaround, is the Bath Harlequins

Bath Beat Quinns Amid Injury Chaos

SPEAKER_01 58:44

game. So there is still a little bit of a shellacking here, but I think you're right to say there is a bit more nuance to it.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Um yeah, so that so the final score is Bath 48, Quinn's 15, and it's not a good final score for Quinn's, it wouldn't be a good final score for anyone. I actually thought Quinn's were pretty good in this game, um, and they've got real mitigating circumstances. Look, every team has had to deal with big injury lists at the moment. I think they said Quinns are Quinn's are currently missing 29 players. Yeah, it's insane.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Did you see that they did like an injury update list?

SPEAKER_02 59:15

And it's just like it's like reading a book. Yeah, it took took a long time to do. Uh Marcus Smith having to start full back um uh in the uh in the front row, Joe uh is it Joe Jones, the title? Yeah, brought it on loan, yeah. Brought it on loan, so only his second game for Quinn's. Uh Hobson at loose head. Um you know, not a player that at the start of the season you would have thought would have got much game time for Quinn's. Um the Clark, I think, was possibly on debut. Uh the sub loose head. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

I would I would I would challenge you to say his first name, but I know you don't know it, so I'm not gonna make it. Owen. Owen.

SPEAKER_02 59:54

Owen Clark, yeah. Uh Musk, uh I assume not Elon. Um the substitute Hooker was on debut, who's a youngster. Oli Streeter, we know from the under 20s. Yeah. Um young lad, lots of bags of potential, but you know, very young lad. Cunningham South filling in at second row, uh, Elliot Williams, 18-year-old, on the bench for them there. Uh Guido Petty starting on uh uh blind side, missing the likes of Launchbury, uh still, who's uh announced his retirement. We should acknowledge that. Joe Lodge will be one of England's greats, yeah. Um per player, one of the best second rows. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, and then in this game, it's just so unfortunate. Um, they lose uh Nick David after 20 minutes on one week. They go with a 6'2 bench, which is a risk in itself, but you can see why they did it because who else were they going to bring in? They lose Nick David after 20 minutes, after 23 minutes, they lose Caden Murley. Yeah, and then they've already unloaded their backs, they've got Lucas Friday on one wing. Um, and uh is it Cam Anderson on the other wing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then uh before the hour, Mark Jared Evans goes off. Yep, bring on Zach Carr, wasn't it? Alex Don Brandon to the centres. Yeah, you know, it just it just you know when it rains it pours. You know, Gloucester have been there this season, Bristol have been there this season, Saints have been there, you know. It's sometimes you just can't help but look and it goes, are we fucking cursed? Um but yeah, really, really unfortunate for Quinn's. But I actually thought for large parts of this game they they were really, really good. They competed well. Yeah, um, some of their attack was really good. I loved the treadwell try. The treadwell try was excellent. Uh with uh Petty's little left-handed uh offload out the back to him, and then Treadwell flattening, Thokkenha Singer, Ewan Richards, and Charlie Yules, I think, on his way to the line. Just excellent, excellent bit of finishing from from and he scored a couple of nice tries this season. Let's let's not forget. Um, a good player, um, Treadwell, actually. Um, I thought Don Brandt was superb in this game. You know, I think he's probably a player who's copped a his more than his fair share of flat, maybe even from us at times. Uh but he was brilliant in this game, really, really combative, um, proper bit of leadership, you know, really led from the front in this one. Um, Marcus Smith, I thought when he had the opportunity to move the ball and to go himself, looked really dangerous. But at some point, compare the two squads and the in-game injuries for Quinn's and physics doesn't lie. They just they just didn't have a chance. Um you know, Santa Carrera scores after three minutes, and Quinn's actually started really well, and they looked they they were on a they were on course for really good attacking, but it's a poor pass, a flat pass across the face by um Jared Evans that Sante Reeds runs it in from 60. Um, and I think probably the writing was somewhat on the wall from there. Um Quinn's do hit back, and Bradley scores a nice try in the corner, really nice finish from him. Uh, then Carr Smith scored not too long after that. Um, and Carreras got another. It was another nice finish, another jinckin finish from Carreras, but you know, 21-8 at half time, it looked um it looked really like it was only going one way, but Quinns was still in it. And actually, when Treadwell scored his try, it goes to 21.15, and you sort of filmed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

Did you see that Treadwell's try? It came from that world-famous uh unstoppable double pump from Finn Russell that no other fly half can do. They got intercepted by Guido Petty. Little throwback to last week. Just an excellent, excellent um, so glad uh I'm so glad that happened after last week's podcast. If you haven't listened, go back and listen to it. I had a good old rant about Finn Russell being quite boring this year. And Rory said, What other fly half can do a double pump and put players through like that? Well, he did it. I think that's quite true. He did it for Guido. He did it for Guido.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

It's quite a childish uh line from you, uh, from you, David, but uh okay. I'm you know, I'll cop that. Um you know, I would argue that other than that, Russell had a pretty good game and Bath played some quite a nice rugby in this game.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

So look at their look at the stats of their backs, they did nothing. Nothing happened for them other than Santi Carreras, none of them did anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

I think Lawrence and the Jomo were both pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

They were solid, but they didn't do anything magnificent. Uh didn't have to against Harlequins, let's face it. Look at the opposition.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

I mean, you've taken a real bitter turn over the last two weeks. I know you've had to go back to work this week and you're all grumpy about it, but after you 12 weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

It's just my eyes have been opened to the fact that of how boring Barth are. It's just it's the more I look into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

He did nothing. Was anonymous in this game. No, I literally I didn't hear his name said.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

Fucking the singer was fantastic in defence, did nothing in attack. But he was fantastic in defence. No, no, yeah. But they're all fantastic in defence. I'm not gonna take that away from them. They're all really good in defence. But my point is you don't sign Finn Russell for them to be fantastic in defence. No, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Well, they still they still did win by over 30 points, David.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Because their pack is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

Uh I've and I've never denied that. And it wasn't, and it was again. Um Richard player that would be fan off, score a nice try. Josh Bayliss with an excellent finish. Yeah, you can't tell me that was a bad try.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

Yeah, it's because it's their forwards. Their forwards are fantastic. Um I'm not I'm not denying that. I'm not denying that for one bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

I mean, this attitude, David, you're gonna force me to end up rooting for Bath against Saints in the final at some point. Oh let's face it, you already will. I can't support Bath. I'm I'm genetically predisposed to dislike Bath, but this this attitude's it's a bad colour on you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

I I think I wanted something. I think I wanted something, and uh just you know, it's an unpopular opinion, Rory. You have to and I just have to bear it. I'd just have to ride that one and wear it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

I'm not denying that Bath are a conservative team. I've I've been there with you the whole season on this, but this is this is bordering on bitterness.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

I've been digging into the stats, and it's just it it screams out. It's so there and obvious to see that how they are not utilised as well as they could do. But we won't go down that rabbit hole again, Rory. There's there's there's other rabbit holes that get stuck in this week.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's let's let's avoid this one. Um, but yeah, look, Bath Bath by and large, um, were just a class. And you know, in the second half, when the Bath bombs came on, you did feel for uh for the young lads of Quinn's front row.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Yeah, Ollie Street is forced on and oh, Thomas de Toy. Francois Van Veek.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do you do sort of you do have to sort of just see some some empathy with the lads there, but it was credit to them that they didn't get sorry?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

It's a credit to them they didn't get bidden for too many grub infringements. I thought they they did get they won't concede too many scrub batteries.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

They did, and and you know, they still on the pitch. That's that's as much as you can hope for sometimes. Yeah, um, and look, I will I I'm gonna say Quinn's in really, really difficult circumstances against a rampant bath pack. I think they acquitted themselves commendably in this game.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

Um, but yeah, ultimately it it all came down to you know Finn Russell's stardust, and that's why Eddie Hearns signed him up. That's why they hooked Finn Russell off after 50 minutes. Yeah, just to just to save him for uh for the big occasion. Well, let's be honest, David. You you're being very uh bitter about this now. You might be speaking from the other side of your face after this weekend.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

I I have a so what's the game after next week's game between Bath and Northampton? It's their trip to Bordeaux. I have a sneaking position that they might rest a few players for the game against Saints. And I don't know. They might, they might, well they've got a big enough squad to kind of ride it, so they probably won't, but there is a chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Well they rotated they rotated a little bit in this one, let's be fair. Well yeah. They rotate week in, week out because they got a big enough squad, but uh Yeah, and to be uh and you know we both have our suspicions about it, but let's be let's be frank, who's doing better on the injury front of anyone other than Bath?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Well, both Lawrence and the Jomo picked up injuries at the very end of this game. Van Grant's really unfortunate, but Van Grant said that the there is concern over both of them. So if that happens, if that's genuine, then that's a long-term thing, that could change Bath's season entirely.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:05

Yeah, that's I mean, you know, so what they'll do leaving with Cam Redpath and Will Butt.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

Well butt see both both all good options if Finn Russell gives them the ball.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:15

But um Well, I mean maybe they'll have to just finally rely on that fantastic pack to win them games.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

And this is part of the problem, Rory. They haven't had to they haven't had to test it, they haven't had to test it because of this rely on that fantastic pack so much. Um yeah, we'll see. We'll see. But yeah, it's it's another solid, strong victory for Bath. Uh right on the coattails of the Hemen Saints, one point in it still at the top of the table. Uh as you say, this weekend, well, it's I I think that makes or breaks which teams kind of guaranteed a home semi versus perhaps just settling for third or fourth, I don't know. Uh we shall see. And uh well, the uh the last game of the weekend.

Saracens Put 80 Plus On Sale

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

I think the the the incredibly loyal people of Greater Manchester probably don't want us to dwell too much on this game. But um 85 Saracens 85.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

It's man, that's bad. As even as shellackins go, that's poor.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

Um no offence, Scotland women.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

Yeah, yes, with with our condolences to the Scottish women. Um and look, shallakins don't happen like this unless you are soft in defence and uncommitted, but even by shellacking standards, Sale were so bad. Well, let's let's be frank, they weren't there. No, they really weren't. And you know, I think almost every Saracen's try came off poor tackling, which how often would you say that about a Sale side in the last few years?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

I I I'm gonna stick by my theory that they've done so much tackling this season that I think their bodies just can't handle anymore. Because they are top of every tackle chart and every competition they take part in. I just think they're broken. Like she can only do so much before your body starts saying no. That's the only that's the only explanation I've got because up until now they've been such dependable and robust defensive side, it's just completely gone out the window.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Maybe mentally broken, maybe after so many weeks of just backs to the wall, physical, grind it out, maybe it it's just no longer possible for Alex Sanderson to keep putting them in that space week in, week out. You know, at some point that mesh has got a tire, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

Yeah, yeah. Uh that's another question I've seen banded around a bit. Like, is there any other professional sport where a coach would remain in their role after after a series of performances that Sale have had recently? Well, I'm not calling for Sanderson's head at all because I know he's a very good coach, but is there any other sport where like that would happen and like a coach is kind of kept on despite such appalling runner form that we're seeing with Sale at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Well, I I I I think questions are being asked. I mean, obviously, for whatever reason, Quinn's are sticking with Jason Gilmore after this season. I think Gloucester uh are absolutely um considering the position of their coaches. We know Newcastle have changed quite a few coaches that they've probably now settled on next years with Stephen Jones in charge. But um I would be surprised if some conversations weren't happening in the in the corridors of Sale Sharks because I really like Alex Arneson. I think I think he's got the mentality that makes me think he could potentially make an in a very good international coach. Um it's just not right at least. Yeah, but yeah, sale at the moment. I mean, only three wins this season. Um poor. Poor, poor, poor, poor, poor. Really, really poor. Um, they've conceded ten tries to calorie alone. Well, ten tries to calorie alone, yeah. I mean, they've they've actually scored um a good number of points. You know, they're if you look at their points difference compared to the other teams down that end of the table, but they've conceded basically the same number of points as Gloucester and Quins have. Um it's um it's a poor stat given you know what a defensive outfit they normally are. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

The northern force as they're now trying to rebrand themselves as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Well, yeah. I don't I don't know what they were forcing through this weekend, but it was uh not a lot. It wasn't forcing much through, that's for sure. It wasn't of much substance, put it that way, when it came out.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:20

What a lovely image for the listener there. Do we dwell much on Saracen's five tries again for Clory? I suppose I suppose a little hat tip to the fact that he's done that twice in one season.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:30

Yeah, look, I it's great. I you know, and I think what what you could see in this game was some of the other elements to what he's developing, um, some really good um work off his wing um to finish what at least one of the tries, but also you know, taking some um all offset piece and getting some go forward. You can see, you know, I think he's developing his game beyond what where he was at the start of the season.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

Um and he's got his hands on the ball a lot in this game, which in some of the previous games they just weren't getting the ball to him at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Uh yeah, that that's it. I think you know, if if he can develop his point where he's has more involvement throughout, you know, looking at the likes of what Gaber Batoy and and Calavetti Rivu do at Bristol, you know, if you're if you want to be the one of the best wingers in the world, you have to have your hands on the ball because you're the type of player that people want to watch, you're the type of player who scores tries, you know. That's and that is just you working off the ball and getting your hands on it. Um, yeah. So, but you know, he he's he's his development trajectory is still going absolutely in the right direction. The bloke's still 19. He's still 19, you know. And he scored 17 tries this season. At 19, David, we were rampaging around with a no fields, um, but we weren't scoring 19 tries, and we didn't look as good as he does.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

No, not at all. Uh so it's it's funny how things go for different people, uh, you know, if you've got talent and ability versus yeah, that was the real that I think that is the real difference between if you if you look at us compared to Noah and Caluri, the main difference is talent and ability.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Oh, yeah, yeah. Not lifestyle choices.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

It's not lifestyle choices, no, not at all. Yeah, just look at us. Yeah, we're just that natural talent. Hey, I this is why rugby's beautiful, it's a sport for all shapes and sizes. Thank God for that. Yeah, where for Calurie and us, we are like chalk and cheese, and you know, thankfully there's room for us all. Chalky. But no, it was really good to see, and like as he is one of the R Mob 2020 to watch, I'm glad we're watching him because uh I'm sure Chris Ashton's tri square record's gonna be under threat uh quite soon if he's gonna if he's gonna see. If anyone's gonna break it, Noah Caloria reckons is gonna be one to do it. Yeah, 17 tries in one season before you even turn 20s are pretty insane, albeit 10 of them were against sale. Um and I get on a similar note to I gave Gloucester, at least if you look at sales recruitment for next season, I'll be very surprised if they're as passive uh that next season. Well, just with Courtney Laws alone, he he wouldn't he would not tolerate such poor, poor mindset that was on display this week.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:04

And to be honest, you know, I think that extra leadership voice on the pitch is maybe what they're they were lacking in this game because it can't just be Van Rain all the time. You know, he's a graft of Van Rain, but George Ford's obviously a leader on the pitch, but defensively, probably not so much. And if you look around the rest of the team, where's the defensive leader? The muulin, maybe. I mean, Doug Dale's a good defender, but yeah, yeah. They need I think they need that that's a team that after this weekend is crying out for Courtney Laws.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, and I think the less said about that game the better, because um, as we've said before and said it again, it was a shellacking. Um, before we get into a special edition of Waterranker, uh, predictions for next week,

Next Round Predictions And Run In Stakes

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

Rory.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:47

Well, let's have a look what we got on Friday. Newcastle Ripples at home against Bristol. Rebles are stronger at home. Um, I think they'll make an occasion of it. Um, but Bristol, I think, will probably come out fairly comfortable winners here. I'm gonna guess 45-22. I think it'll be an entertaining game, but up and end to end, but yeah, Bristol, I think, in a couple way convincing winners.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Can't see beyond Bristol at all in this one. Uh, it would be a comfortable five-point win for them. 20 points plus for sure difference. Um, I can't see beyond that. There we go. Quinn's against Sale at three o'clock. Oh, there's what I'm not tuning into.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

Well, yeah, it's been interesting. I mean, if Quinn's had more players available, I'd back them.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:35

I think I think if you were to base it off of this weekend's performances, Quinn's at least looked like they were playing for something.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Yeah, but Quinn's Quinn's have got a bad record this season of backing up positive performances. True, it is usually one and done, isn't it? Yeah, they're also down even more players. Sale will have an absolute rocket put um up him, and I think they'll have they will have to respond after that performance. They could they can't not respond. Um, I'm actually gonna back sale, I think, to to wedge this one, but I think it'll be something like 1715.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:11

So in my head, I was thinking it was gonna be 17-13. I was gonna give it to Harlequins just because I was what I wanted to reward uh their well enforced policy on playing a lot of their young players, mainly because they have no other players. But uh you're probably right, it probably will be sale, but I I I'd like to envisage a win for Harlequins and for their youngsters. Why not? Well, look, it doesn't mean it's fine. Next game, I believe, is that Saints Bath. I haven't got the fixtures up in front of me, Rory.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

No, it's Saracens Tigers at 305. Saracens. That's a good game. This is a good game because Saracens have been really up and down this season, but they'll obviously be bouncing off after this weekend. Tigers just generally been going really well. They they just rumble on. Um, but Saracens have got a lot of players back, they look strong, and I think they will be determined to give Mark McCall an opportunity to have another crack at the playoffs before the end of the season.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

I think I'm gonna back Saracens to sneak this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

Um I think Saracens need to win it if they genuinely do want to a shot.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:17

They need to win it if they're gonna. So I'm gonna back them to win this one on the back of them just being more desperate to win it. Yeah, uh, I'm gonna go 24-18.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:29

Yeah, I'm backing that. I I think Saracens sneak it as well some way. I think it'll be a great game. I think it'll be close, but I think Saracens sneak it may I've maybe 27, 24, or something like that. Yeah, I think it'll be a bit closer than what you suggested, but I think it'll be a great game. And then then the next one.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:46

There we go. Northampton Saints against Bath half past five on Saturday at Franklin's Gardens. Are you going to this one, David?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:52

Uh, undecided at this stage. I do have the option to go. I just haven't decided whether I will take up that option yet or not.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

Um I think this is one to make yourself available for because I'm I'm expecting a Humdinger here. Um Saints, I think, will push Bath to the absolute edges of what they're capable of in this one. They're obviously gonna need um they're gonna be motivated to get some revenge after the uh European exit. Yep. Bath potentially down a couple in the centres, which could which will play into Saints' hands, but you know that Bath pack is just being marshalled by Finn Russell so well at the moment. Um this I think this one will come down to the it as it so often does, it comes down to a battle of the forwards, probably a battle of the breakdown. And I think just on this occasion, this does that does play in a Bath's hands. Bath did not have a good record at Franklin's Gardens. Bath don't have a good record at Franklin's Gardens. Oh, which way am I leaning on this one, David? I know where you're leaning. You're leaning to Bath's gardens. No, do you know what? I no, I've I've I've my logic's talk me round. I think if Saints can secure their line out and their scrum, if they can secure their set piece, which is not a given, but Bath don't necessarily have the best line out, I'm going to just give it to Saints to edge it.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

There's a reason Saints Saints have rested a lot of players. Like if we didn't touch on the game, Saints rested a lot of players this week as well. We're gunning for this game.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:27

Because it's all it's all we have to play for. Bath have to think about. I'm gonna give it Saints 3127. I'm gonna say it's gonna be 44-41, but this time in Saints direction. Oh, poetic justice. Poetic Justice. And the referee's gonna make lots of decisions in favour of Saints this time, and that's what's gonna happen. And I can't wait to talk about the podcast and say how great the referee was and how boring and how boring Barf have been because all their tries came from line out maules. That's my prediction.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

Okay, well we'll look forward to this one. Um and then final fiction on Sunday, Gloucester at home against Exeter. Um looking for that one. I'd love to find you any kind of logic whereby I can back Gloucester to win it, and I just can't at the moment. Um yeah, I can't I can't think of any reason why Gloucester would win this one. And on that basis, I'm gonna have to give it to Chiefs. I'm gonna say it's gonna be 28-12 to Chiefs.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

Yeah, yeah, I can't see it beyond the comfortable win for Chiefs. They've got something to play for, Gloucester don't. Um X to play with a bit between their teeth at the moment, their defence is remarkable, and uh their attack weather Gloucester isn't. Yeah, I I I can see this one being X to 30-ish, Gloucester 12 or something like that. Um I amise you um and your Gloucester fandom. Um checking at the time, Rory. I think we might need to put a whole uh a holding pattern on Wateranka this week, because we've uh we've done a lot of deliberating and I know the fans are crying for more Wateranka, but um it's probably worth us just giving a little nod to the Red Roses before we bring the podcast to a close.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:23

Talking

Red Roses Dominance And Growing The Game

SPEAKER_02 1:22:24

of Shellakins.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

So Scotland 7, England 84, um Scotland just utterly outclassed by an England side that are looking like they're clicking in attack in a way we haven't necessarily seen. Um the um Meg Jones try was really indicative of it. Where I think summed up well. I think it is I'm not sure, I can't remember if it was Kabea or um Feyonati who makes the initial bust, but it's the it's the tracking run that Meg Jones make, and just I anticipating either having to hit the rug or she was really tracking for was the offload, which she gets and finishes really well. Um she just looked like well, the whole team I think looked like a team that had really worked hard on an attacking pattern that works. Um Emma Singh's try was a really good example of that as well, uh you know, and actually they mixed it up well, you know, they scored they scored the sort of tries you expect from England, you know, Sarah Byrne and and um uh Amica Kane both scored um some some good good old-fashioned Red Roses tries, yeah. But actually a lot of it came from really good um the backs were let loose, really good attacking play. You know, I think they're they're getting into some brightening form um for Scotland as a weekend to forget, just dust yourself off and go again. Um ultimately, you know, summarily dispatched by by the Red Roses here. Um, but it you know, if you look at that that England side, you know, you look at the players who aren't in there. Yeah, scary. It is really scary. You know, yeah, Mia Venna starting on the bench, young winger from Gloucester Hartbury who's been scoring drives for five scores in this one. But they had Holly Herson on the um starting on the bench, they start with uh Zoe Harrison at 10. Yeah. Uh Ellie Kildun moved to the wing took up another Emma Singh, Jess Breach on the other wing. Um you know, you you're missing missing a lot of big players um for England in that starting lineup, you know. Obviously, very short in the in the lock department, but Burton and Campion giving a good account of themselves, Louitouille, um Latouille as well, scoring a try late on.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:44

Um yeah, Alex Matthews missing, Fernati's stepping up really well. Uh it's ominous, isn't it? I think it's it's looking like the red roses' form isn't gonna fail falter anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

No, is is there a risk? And this is this is kind of devil's advocate kind of stance that I'm just posing, it's not necessarily what I think is gonna happen, but is there a risk that with how dominant the red roses are, that that lack of competitiveness and lack of kind of competition from any other opponent in like kind of these competitions that it could theoretically put some neutral fans or people just trying to discover women's rugby off because part of the allure of sport is that competition. If the Red Roses are just beating their closest rivals by 80 points to seven week in, week out, is there a risk that they could be victims of their own success in that degree in that regard?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:38

Yes, but that's on everyone else to up their game. Red Roses can't deliberately be worse just to make it more. And you know, the fact that for all the RFU's faults, the fact that they have invested in women's rugby and create a situation where Red Rose's team is so good even compared to anyone else, you know, around the world, that's should that's to be applauded and you know for showing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:01

Um I agree, but then that's why it's devil's advocate, devil's advocate approach.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:05

I yeah, I totally get I totally get the question, you know, and it's a question you hear sometimes. I think you often hear variations of that questions from those who would like to detract from women's sport in general, um, women's team sport, where there are, you know, there are a lot of instances across women's team sport where it is asymmetric. Well, that's because we've not been good enough in society to to champion women's team sport for a long time and it's it's now uneven, it is asymmetric across the board, but it will only get better if if people just keep playing it. And you know, who say the red roses can't inspire some Scottish women to to go out and become the next best players, you know, it's it's they can only keep doing what they're doing, and you know, we've seen that there are some results in in the the youth that shows that it's not gonna last forever, it's not gonna last forever. Um so look, uh I I understand the question, and I think it's it's a it's one that needs to be asked, but the answer lies in other teams improving and not on on the red roses, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:08

And I I I put a lot of hope on the PWR that attracts the best talent from around the world, and I think the fact that the red roses are playing with these women from all across the world, I think hopefully that skill is then shared and then that spreads, and then that that's how the levels improve. I I think the PWR could be a source of nations across Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:30

You know, you've got the Women's Pacific Floor series going on at the moment as well. Don't forget, you know, you've got Canada, US, Australia, and then New Zealand playing. Um some tight games in that one Canada 14, New Zealand 36, US 33, Australia 12. You know, these aren't blowouts.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:46

No, these are much much closer competitions. And I think that yeah, those four teams are quite evenly matched as well. Um so it it it does exist. I think, yeah, it was a it was an antagonistic question, but I think it's just this I I just don't want to see proof. progress that's being made in the women's area be undermined by the fact that they they are just so so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

Yeah and and and it won't be if if every other nation pulls their finger out and actually gets behind it. Look you know look at the the kind of crowd that England got for the opening game this year. You know, it's it's not just now um a novelty the Red Roses are now a team that pull crowds and actually the other nations need to do better to pull those crowds because that's how you this becomes profitable and this is how it becomes a sustainable sport.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:34

Yeah and there's there's a relatively fair argument to be made that the women's version of the game is a much more attractive version of the game to watch compared to the men's international side like it's yes it's certainly much more exciting to watch at times. Yeah. So yeah it's an interesting one. Yeah Rory we we are blabbed on this week and uh we've we've uh we've covered a lot of ground and it's on that that note we will have to bring the podcast to a close but we can't do that without Rory's final thought.

Final Thought And Barking Rallying Cry

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

So what is Rory's final thought? Get yourselves down to Barking RFC this Saturday to watch the mighty lions win the league lions lions lions and on that note we've been Rux Malls and Ogre Balls Rory's catching his breath and we'll be back again next week with some more rugby podcast content for you all make sure to like follow subscribe and all those fun things and we'll be back again to talk to you very very soon. Ta