S2 Ep 33 - Is This The Start Of A Rugby Civil War?

Rugby doesn’t get to hide behind tradition any more and that’s the thread running through everything we talk about. We start with the Bristol Bears “marketing agency” comment and the reaction it sparked, because it cuts straight to the modern fight inside the sport: do we want rugby to grow, make money, and reach new fans, or do we want to pretend that commercial reality is somehow beneath the game? We talk player marketability, digital profiles, and why some fans hear that language as an attack on community and identity.

From there we get into the media side and the gatekeeping that still lingers. When creators and analysts build huge audiences by explaining the sport well, should ex players sneer at them, or learn from them? We also call out how negativity in commentary can shrink a brilliant occasion, especially when the rugby itself is delivering. If you care about where rugby coverage is going, this conversation is not optional.

Then we go properly on-field with the Champions Cup semi finals. Bordeaux v Bath becomes a case study in ruthlessness: Jalibert and Lucu do what they do, but Bordeaux’s defence and late-game ambition are what really stand out. We also unpack the replay and TMO controversy and why the EPCR tech set-up matters more than any tired “French TV director” conspiracy. Leinster v Toulon is the other side of the coin: line speed, suffocation, and big names stepping up, setting up a Bordeaux v Leinster final that feels like a genuine clash of identities.

We finish by helping Steve Borthwick out: a Premiership form based England summer squad, position by position, including the tight calls at hooker, the back row logjam, and what England actually need at fullback in a blitz defence world. Subscribe, share the episode with a mate, and leave us a review, then tell us the one player we’ve absolutely got wrong.

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Transcript

Welcome And Weekend Catch-Up

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Rux Balls and Oval Balls. That's right, it's the Fans Favourite Rugby Podcast once again. Back with the fans favourite rugby podcast hosts. That's right, it is me, Dave, joined as ever by Rory. Rory, say hello to the listener.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hello, hello listeners. Hello, David. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Hello, Rory. Uh, I am very well. I'm feeling a little bit not a great start point for an audio format, but I'm feeling a little bit sunburnt because I was outside for a little while over the weekend.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Uh I imagine if you were outside for more than four minutes, you'd feel a bit sunburnt.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Yeah, I famously get burnt in cloud cover, uh, and that happened once more. Uh outside of that, um anything interesting? We're just trying to get that we spoke last week about the exciting development of me becoming a DIY masterman. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Is that still ongoing? Uh or is everything falling apart?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Everything is still where it was. Uh it's just a continued effort to look at uh upgrading uh Armob Dave HQ and maybe a maybe a relocation job en route. Um but other than that, I think that all really is insignificant compared to uh I know how your weekend went, Rory. I know the listener is keen to know how well again, fantastic for the audio format here, but Rory has brought a trophy into sight.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

I brought props for this audio format, ladies and gentlemen, because I have not given this trophy back to the club because we bloody went and won it. The Tribble! Wow. Talk us through. Uh talk us through the day, Rory. Well, we were at Old Brentwood's Rugby Club, which is a rugby club that the consensus was none of us had ever heard of. We had no idea why it was there, and we'd never been there before. So that was interesting. Great. Um, nice enough place though, apart from you know the pitch being on the other side of the cricket pitch, so ideal. Um, it was I want to say 25 degrees on the day. Lovely day for that. Um the promised rain didn't arrive until uh well after the final whistle, so we were treated to yet more Hart-like uh ground to play on.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Um but we got the job done. Dave, we got we got the job done. Um it was uh it was a strange. I mean, you know, you'd probably argue we didn't play our best rugby of the season, but in that heat, who's surprised? No, and that when the trophies on the line, who's surprised? It's cup final rugby, Rory. Cup final rugby, you just gotta get yourself over the line. Um, it was 39-24 in the end, if I remember rightly, which I might not because I might have then celebrated for the next two days.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Um I'd expect nothing less. Yeah. Um, we yeah, I think what's what's what's so great about it is on top of finishing the season with the league leaders, the league final, the cup final, the treble. We love it.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

The trifecta.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, it's I mean, uh from a from a personal point of view, you know, I can't help thinking it's all down to me and my efforts. Um you are captain. So I am captain. We are also David, and this is almost a podcast exclusive. We're taking the Lions into the leagues. Oh, we're talking. Now we're talking.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

That's exciting stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That is exciting stuff. We've all we need is a mere eight promotions, and we can get the Lions in the Prem. Wowzers.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So so you're entering. So what would that be? So I don't know what levels there are in Essex as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

County two, I think it is. So um uh we'll be playing the likes of

Rory’s Trophy Win And Treble Talk

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Burnham, uh Basilden, uh, Epin. Yeah. Uh Old Brent's actually, as it happens. Um yeah, you know, some of the some of the finest names in uh counties, uh counties rugby and specifically the Essex area.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Could argue the only names in Counties Rugby are the Essex area because they're the teams that play in the Counties League in Essex area, but carry on.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, you know, if you want to diminish it, be reductionist, David, sure. Um but no, we're we're taking the lines of the leagues. There's been a new RFU edict about getting lower teams into uh into the leagues, so uh we can't be blocked this year as we as we were last year, and uh guarantees the Lions competitive uh a competitive season.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

I'm hopeful of uh of securing a promotion next year, that'd be my goal. I want to I want to get this rocket ship going all the way up straight away.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Well uh back to back trophies. Back to back trophies.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

I'm hungry for trophies, David. I've not had much fill. He's not Edis Phil. He's not Edis Phil of silverware, he's hungry for more. Uh it's good as well because it that that puts away the rumours about potential raw retirement. That's that's put to bed. Rory's going at least another season. He's got he's got more silverware in the eyes. Um he he's he's had three tastes of success, and that hasn't that hasn't done enough to put that at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

No, yeah, I'm not satiated, David. I am I'm taking I'm taking the Lions all the way to the top.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Fantastic, Rory. This is this is news. This is the news we like to deliver our Rux Balls Oval Balls. Yeah it's it's this sort of hard-hitting general national level interest news that really hits home to the listener, and we'll be keeping a close, close eye on the Lions journey through the leagues over the years. Uh, and can't wait to get the invite to whenever they have their inauguration into the into the Prem as what the 15th franchise, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Uh yeah, look, watch out, Rebels. We're coming for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Can't wait. Can't wait. Well, that is some weekend, Rory. I'm I'm sure you celebrate it in style. I'm sure that trophy smells awful and has had more than its fair share of shared beverages within. Yeah, rancid. It's rancid. It's rancid. Uh fantastic. I wouldn't wouldn't have it any other way, Rory. That's fantastic news. Now, obviously, we can't talk about the Lions all podcasts, as I point out every single week. As much as we'd love to. We do our best, but we can't. We do our best. And sadly the season's coming to an end, so we're gonna have to actually fill the banter section with some banter in the future. Oh, we'll have to find something to do. I know. But we are here to talk more broadly about rugby outside of the Essex area.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Um this weekend was an odd weekend. But we'll touch on a couple of bits of news. We'll touch on a few things that happened in the rugby world, we'll talk about a couple of games that may have happened, and we're also gonna touch on uh Well, we're gonna do a bit of work for Steve Borthwick.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

That's what we're gonna do uh to round off the episode.

Bristol Bears And The Business Angle

SPEAKER_02 6:35

We'll take just take one thing off his plate. We'll take one thing off his plate. But we're gonna start off with a little bit of news, and it's not really news, it's more of a talking point based off of a news story that was created out of it. Uh and it's that um it's been spoken about a bit. The Bristol Bears being well, could argue having his words taken out of context, but the message was very clear. He he basically stated that Bristol Bears exists in a capacity to be a marketing agency rather than a rugby club. I know that's been clarified since then, and uh I he's kind of done a bit of scrambling and pointed out that slightly taken out of context when you consider the audience he was delivering that message to, which I think is all valid and fair. But you can't help but look at the way Bristol Bears are operating and think, yeah, they are turned operators, a marketing agency, and it's all about image and the marketability of their players. And I think I remember seeing I can't remember which player it was, but a player said that a big part of their contract discussion was about they need to do more with their digital profile in order to increase their value to the club. Um is this the direction that R Sport is going in, Rory?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, look, I've actually got sympathy with Tom Dayton on this one, um, the Bristol CEO. I think I think he chose his words poorly, and I think he he should have known or should have had some idea of how a statement like that would land with the fan base and the wider rugby public. Um it's uh from a from a media perspective, it's a naive statement to make, but I don't think he's necessarily wrong in his assessment. Um we've got to we've we've got to stop clutching at pearl necklaces in in rugby, and we've got to be more at peace with the fact that rugby clubs are a commercial entity, rugby players are a commercial asset, um, and like every other successful sport, the the game at the weekend is not the only way to drive revenue. Um there's so much more around it. I think what Bristol have done from a marketing perspective, you know, their social media team for a couple of years was absolutely out on their own if from an English rugby perspective, um, in terms of the type of content they were doing. Yeah, you know, I said I I think there's a few others who are um producing similar sort of stuff now. Um but they purely from it from a prem perspective, they somewhat changed the game in terms of what our social media could be. Yeah. I think probably has to think differently about how it drives revenue and the marketability of players is is a big aspect to it. Now he's wrong in the sense that you you don't sign players or you shouldn't sign players based purely on their marketability. But you know, the examples that are being thrown around are Lewis Reese Samet and Alona Meyer. Yeah. Now both incredibly marketable for different reasons, but both very, very marketable players. But is anyone gonna sit sit there with a straight face and say they're not also being signed for their ability on the pitch? Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

It's not like they aren't they don't come with star quality on the pitch as well as off the pitch. Uh yeah. So yeah, so I think that's that's a fair point. And I think I think if they were to start, you know, if they were to sign, you know, a side man, that's that's a thing, isn't it? A side man, a side man?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Look, I'm one of these tube ones. I think we're both a bit long in the tooth to be to be talking about uh which sidemen is the most marketable. I think side men, I think sidemen are considered old in that world now. So we're probably uh we're probably four or five generations out of the loop in terms of who's the hot property on on the old TikTok. Um you would know you would know better than me though, I would think.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

But say so I think Max Brown's probably a name familiar with a lot of people who follow social media rugby content. If he was to all of a sudden get a get a contract, I know to you that means nothing. But if he was to all of a sudden get a contract at Bristol Bears, that would get called out as being that is a social media marketing agency driven decision because yes, he could play rugby, but he plays grassroots rugby. If you're signing him up to a professional prem team, there is only one reason, one reason alone. That isn't what Bristol Bears are doing. That's not what we're trying to make here.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

No, and look, this this isn't um this isn't unusual, you know. Johnny Wilkinson got a lot of contracts for his for being a brilliant rugby player and being incredibly um successful and diligent professional, but it also didn't help that Johnny Wilkinson was incredibly handsome and is incredibly handsome. Yeah, yeah. You know, it it's just you know, it didn't hurt David Beckham in football.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

No, it doesn't hurt, does it? It really doesn't hurt, from what I've been told.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

You know, yeah. I mean, you know, we wouldn't know, but you know, there's I know in theory if you're if you're good looking, people will pay you more. Um and look, marketability all has always had a hand in in in sporting contracts, yeah. It certainly has in in serious professional environments, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:50

In business, business decision making, your ability to market something you're doing is going to be more favourable than something you can't.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah, but marketability in sport does come a big portion of it comes from your your ability on the pitch. There I can't I can't think off the top of my head You can't think of a really handsome bad rugby player, or even just but even general sports star, you know, who's the who's the global sporting icon who isn't also brilliant in their sport? You know, you could go for who you got you got let's say a Tani, the um the Japanese baseball player in the MLB. I think he's now considered the best paid sporting star in the world. Now, I mean I'm not a baseball expert but expert, but I know just from a cursory bit of research that he's brilliant and he's brilliant both sides of the ball. You know, that's why he's being paid big bucks. The fact that he's incredibly marketable and incredibly popular, not only in the US but in Japan, is very helpful. But he happens to be brilliant at the sport. Yeah, you know, marketable comes down to a lot of different things, but you know, David Gandhi could be the most I mean, this is this is so how far out of it I am. That's that's the only male model I can think of is a man who was a famous model 20 years ago. Um, but you know, no one's paying him 500 grand a year to be a rugby player because he'd be rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Exactly. So you know these guys are brilliant at their sport as well, but the you know the marketability is all part of it, and players are gonna have to be comfortable with it. We talked about a few weeks ago. You know, some of this is gonna get uncomfortable. The you know, Eddie Hearn being involved in the sport is gonna create some uncomfortable conversations like this.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Yeah, he's promised that he's gonna be putting Henry Pollock in so many places we're gonna start getting bored of him, and I've seen lots of fans saying that they already are bored of him, but probably for other reasons. Um so yeah, I I I think you're fair to say, like, yes, his words were probably poorly chosen, probably taken out of context. I know there's a lot of Bristol fans who are furious with it because it did kind of a little bit diminish their role in their local community club that they feel very tune with. But you have to have to there's also the reality of that all these clubs are now they are business operations, and in order to literally talking at something called the business of sport, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

What do you want to be talking about? You know, what would you what do you what do you mean talking about? Pat Pat Land Tactical Wouldn't mind it, wouldn't mind it. But it's not relevant in the business of sport in that context, is it? Of course, it's gonna talk about the business side. It's I mean, just grow up. Everyone needs to grow up.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Everyone grow up. That's the headline, people. Everyone grow up. Uh so yeah, maybe the uproar is a bit unnecessary. I can get why people would be annoyed with some of the chosen words, but you have to remember where he was speaking, what his target audience was, and actually what he was saying wasn't all that wrong. Um so on on that hand, when you put all that together, good work. Yeah, do you know what it sounds like?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

It sounds like a CEO who's thinking innovatively in a way to drive revenue and increase fandom. I mean, if you're a Bristol Bears fan, you should actually be quite pleased that you've got someone in charge who is trying to think a little bit outside the box. Yeah, maybe you don't necessarily like exactly the way he's thinking about it, yeah, but the CEO's job is not to pick the pick the team at the weekend, but it is his job to try and drive revenue in a club that, let's be honest, loses quite a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah. Well put. Well put, Rory. Uh yeah, it's an interesting one. It's a I don't know whether this is like sports media looking for an opportunity to take a dig or fans taking an opportunity to make a dig at the club. I don't know. It's uh it may become a bit of a running theme in this episode, Rory, but it feels like there is a bit of uh there's a difference going on. There's a difference going on between what's being said, what's being done, who's doing what. Um we'll touch on it. We'll touch on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

There's a bit of a schism in the sport at the moment where I don't know, there's a bit of people wanting to have their cake and eat it too, a little bit here. You know, you you can't want rugby to succeed and grow and make money and you know grow around the world and not uh but not also accept

Media Gatekeeping And Squidge Debate

SPEAKER_00 15:55

that marketing is a big part of that. You know, I think you're referring a little bit to uh Andy Good's backed with Squidge Rugby recently. Now, whatever you think about Squid Rugby, you know, I don't know the bloke. I've seen I've I've watched some of his videos, I think some of his analysis is pretty good. But Andy Good's uh using his platform to be fairly derogatory about Squid Rugby, uh being in his mum's basin or whatever, is a bit rich coming from a bloke who's been driving most of his revenue post-game by hosting a podcast about rugby every week.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah, which hasten to add has fewer subscribers on YouTube than Squid Rugby does. I mean, you know makes you wonder, makes you wonder. Um and it's that whole kind of gatekeeping the sport to those who've played it. And it's that sort of attitude. It it almost stems back to like some of the stuff you spoke of in the past, where very traditional, not wanting to change the ways, and I think players can be just as guilty of this as um grassroots club chairman's or things like that. It's that they don't want to lose what they believe the sport is to them, but to what the direction the sport is moving in, which is a more digital sport, a more marketable sport, and a sport that is trying to move with the age, with this new era. So when you've got people like Squidge Rugby, who is incredibly popular on these new digital formats and is well respected by lots of fans for the way he delivers that information, directly conflicting with an ex-player who, let's face it, is has got his job because he's an ex-player and he's being paid for his views. Swidge Rugby is being paid because of his views. That's the difference. So I think people lots of ex-players, lots of people need to get well, they don't need to. They can keep digging their heels in if they want to. But have to have the realisation that if we are all on the same ship of wanting the sport to grow and get better, you need to adapt to the way the sport's going, which is it's inevitably gonna go this way. Because if it doesn't, it will disappear. Because if rugby doesn't get on bought with the way the world's moving, it's gonna fall behind.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, and you know, cards on the table. Obviously, we've got a vested interest in the new media um views on rugby, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Well, and we've got a vested interest in you know being commentators of the sports who aren't actually ex-pro players, so naturally we're gonna fall on the side of Squidge on this one.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

But I think Andy Good wants to call us losers, he's more than welcome to, but you know, that doesn't make him immune from criticism for being quite a negative commentator quite a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Well, it's it is interesting. So I think Kim Cocker, egg chasers, also called out how negative the commentary was. And like these are people who may well may not have laced our boots in the Prem, but we're also not idiots, and we also know like we're the we're your target audience, Andy Good. We're the ones absorbing the commentary.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

We're consumers of the sport, first and foremost, really, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

And if we're sat here telling you that you are being overly negative, maybe take the feedback on board and have a think about how you react to receiving that feedback because ultimately, so obviously, this is the segue into the Champions Cup for uh segment of the conversation if you hadn't twigged. I'll

Bath Bordeaux And Commentary Negativity

SPEAKER_02 19:05

start off with I thought Bath Bordeaux game, there's lots we'll have to unpack here, but the headline for me outside of the match itself, I genuinely did think the commentary from Good and DeLalio really detracted from the occasion from people watching on Premier Sports because it was overly negative. They got absolutely stuck in the weeds about it's all they got they they just got absolutely stuck on this issue about the TV director not getting replays, Bath being kind of harshly dealt with by the referees and TMOs and all that sort of stuff, and they spent every opportunity they could to make a dig at that. It really detracts from what a commentator's job is to do, which is to bring the viewer along, explain.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

They somehow miss the fact that a brilliant game of rugby was going on.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Well exactly, and all the conversation post-this game has not been about the game, it's been about a load of stuff, which is a load of rubbish, really detracts from the game, and it's and it's been driven by the commentators on a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Um we just address it. Okay. There there's been a conspiracy about French TV directors since I ever since I can remember. Ever since I've watched European rugby, I've heard the same odd things about French French TV directors. I don't know if there's if there's some kind of unwritten rule amongst French TV directors to to make sure that the TMOs don't see the the damning angles when when a French if a French player does something, you know. Maybe it is, maybe, maybe it's maybe it is that um malicious or whatever. But I think the fact that this this is the issue that's come out of a out of a game when what I want to talk about is I want to talk about how good Bordeaux are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to talk about how bad Bath well but them them not even necessarily how bad Bath were on the whole, but they were profligate and inaccurate. Profligates, profligate is the is the word for it. And the fact that actually if they were as ruthless in this game as they've been in well, most of their prom games over the last 18 months or so, they probably could have won this.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah, because Bordeaux weren't at their best, I'd say, as well. They were they were excellent, but they weren't their flying flying best. On the French TV director, I've done I've done a little bit of research, done a bit of reading. Yeah, it seems to me this boils down, surprise, surprise, to the EPCR not throwing money at this competition and having a budget TMO system. So the way the system is in the EPCR is so it's the it's so there's three tiers. I won't go into detail because other podcasts will touch it. There's three tiers of TMO, Prem and URC is at tier two, World Cup Six Nations is like tier one, and for some reason, Champions Cup, the elite European format's at tier three, and it's a very basic T V replay system where a French TV feed has someone watching it and then also watching on a five second delayed feed, and that's they need to use that feed to try and pick out where the replays that get fed to the TMO is. So the problem is that system is not advanced enough for them to be able to go and pick out all those numbers in real time and get it to the team.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Which is mental. Which is meant to be the pinnacle of the club game. And they're using a budget system that I mean.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So it's not it's not a deliberate thing that the French TV director is trying to do. It's because the tools they've got to their disposal are not adequate for the competition and the needs of the TMO and the referee. So everyone who's pointing their finger at the TMO, everyone who's pointing at the French TV director, it's not them, it's the EPCR for not thinking that they should spend a bit of money to get a system in place for what is the elite European contest to have a TMO like Hawkeye in the World Cup is used. They're brought in to make sure it is the best of the best. Do something similar. Um it's absolutely ludicrous that that is what's happening, and it's caused this, and it's why there is this long-running thing about French rugby doing this, just because that's the system they've been using all this time.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And yeah,

EPCR TMO Tech And TV Feed Limits

SPEAKER_00 22:55

it's another detractor to what used to be such a great competition. I I mean, I uh so I I have Premier Sports on the app on my phone, so that's I so I have to watch it on that or cast it to a telly. Yeah, um, and it's not a woe is me, I don't have all the media on my TV going. What I would tell you is the the phone app for Premier Sports is useless. I've and my experience of watching these games has been frankly.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

So I I've not been impressed with Premier Sports at all ever since they got the contract. Uh it says a lot that EPCR went for them right over you know TNT or whoever it is, Discovery, whoever it is at the moment. Um days HBO Max, yeah, because apparently um Premier Sports offered a budget contract which meant it cost them less money in some sense. Kel Sapris. Um but I've not been impressed with Premier Sports at all. They just buy in the French TV feed, so they have no control over a lot of it. But I think the commentary team, I thought even like someone who's like really slick, normally like Martin Bayfield, it just felt really clunky. That entire presentation, everything just didn't feel like flow. I don't know what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, I um I so I carst on the same. I don't really tend to watch much of the build-up, I don't tend to watch much of the half-time stuff just because I it doesn't really do anything for me most of the time. But I did catch a bit of this one, and I was listening to Bayfield, and I I don't know, you I like I like him a lot, generally speaking. I think he's a really tricky presenter. I think he's yeah, I think he's usually really good. And I was listening to going, what on earth is he on about? It's like, is he has he got like is he reading a fucking or has he got that thing, you know, when someone talks in your ear that that happened to Haskell a few years ago? I saw his talking as you like jams your speech.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

It's like if it sounded like that. I I get the general impression that that's what's going on at Premier Sports is that they've got probably too many voices in their ears telling them to do stuff. But it's even like technical stuff. Like there was a bit where Claire Thomas, who does like commentary and a bit of pitch slide stuff, she was interviewing the Bordeaux attack or defence coach, I can't remember his name, an Irish chap who's their defence or attack coach. And instead of having the camera squared on him so the background's the usual spiel about sponsors and stuff, you could see all the people stood to the side in their bibs doing some paperwork and doing all the technical stuff and all the wires. You couldn't even be bothered to centre the camera frame on the person they're interviewing. And it's just rubbish. It's so amateur-ish. And then the commentary team in this particular game followed suit because it was an amateur-ish performance from the commentators as far as I'm concerned. Miles Harrison did a good job, but but Lawrence D'Analia hadn't, and then saying, Oh, Bordeaux must have knocked it off. It was when a Bordeaux player slapped it back, and it's just because of the camera angle being on the other side of the pitch, he was like, Oh, Bordeaux knocked it on. I was like, How like is he I don't think he watches the game. I he can't be watching the game.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

I I don't I just don't think he's very good. And yeah, he isn't and he used to stop it. Let's be honest, at some point, it's been over 20 years now, we can we can we can stop hiring England World Cup winners for things.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Well, it also begs the question, like, as Andy Good has pointed out, he used to play this game and that's why he's so qualified to talk about it. The game's moved and changed a lot since he played. Maybe we're just as qualified to talk about this game now than him and Lawrence are because how how in touch with it can they possibly be now?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Look, there's a lot of really good, there's a lot of really good people. There's a lot of people I like who who do the stuff. You know, I think Sam Warburton's brilliant. I like I think Jamie Roberts is very good. I like Dave Flatman, you know. Um I like Ugo. I think Ugo's good. Um, they get there's a there's people who've dropped in. I think Danny Kerr's doing pretty well. He's pretty until very early on into his career. I think he's I think he's doing some good stuff. Um Chris Ashton, I quite like. Yeah. I think Topsy's got you know got something about him as well. But you know, these blokes who haven't played for 15, 20 years now. I mean, it's just time to put I mean it's like it's like when in the World Cup in the ITV, and you got you look at the lineup and it's Clive Woodward, Lawrence Delalio, and Johnny Wilkinson, and you're going, oh god. Johnny Johnny's gonna talk about the the art of the kicking, the mushroom experience he had while he was thinking about kicking. Clive Woodward's gonna repeat a Daily Mail article he wrote 25 years ago, and Lawrence is um well, he's not gonna be able to tell most of the players apart.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

No, I just stare at his shoelaces. Um yeah, it's it's a weird one, and I just feel like is this another bit that shows that there is a disconnect between what where the sport needs to be going and where the sport is still a bit stuck in the trenches and not necessarily moving with the times as it should be. Um perhaps refresh.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

You know, Premier Sport, we we taught this before. Have people at the grounds. Yeah, have a studio at the grounds. Like these stadiums all have studios you can go into. Just go there.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Well, they were that they're at the ground, but they're on the pitch getting soaked by the rain, which is quite amusing at times. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Um, all all the the cameras aren't good enough, the apps aren't good enough, the analysis isn't good enough. But it just attracts from it as a it really does.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

So let's do our best, Rory, to try and give that game a little bit of analysis because ultimately there's some really, really fantastic stuff that is worth drawing upon, rather than talking about just the negative stuff, uh, because

Bordeaux’s Defence And Jalibert Magic

SPEAKER_02 28:10

there is still plenty to go through.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Let's let's let's talk about it. Uh and uh shall we start with um with Bordeaux?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Because I think they are you're right, they weren't at their absolute scintillating best in the sense of in attack. In attack, I don't think they were in defense, they were monstrous. Um but I will say in attack, having Luca and Jalibear continues to be a complete cheat code, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

It really does feel like it.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Um some of the little snipes that Jalibert was making, like when he starts sniping around the rocks, and you're going, Oh my god, he's they can do it all, everyone can do everything.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Oh fair, yeah, yeah. Like I I think Jalibea is probably the player over the last 18 months who for me has like grown so much in terms of his profile and just being able to see what he's able to do. Because he's been he's kind of been cast away in France for a while and kind of been like perceived as like the the naughty kid on the naughty step.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Where well he fell out with Gaultier, didn't he? And then um and obviously Entermac was the the number one choice at Flyar for France, and obviously, you know, we don't I I I don't watch lots of top 14. I I watch bits and pieces, but I don't watch loads of top 14. Um so the European Cup is where I get the opportunity to watch a lot of these players, um, not in France, in a in France kit. And I mean he has rocketed up Raw's French rugby playing crushes.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

The Rollodex of romance.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Oh, it's the thing is that he the fact that he doesn't have a weakness in his game is just he doesn't have a weakness in his game, but he's also got he's got that absolute sort of bravery of of when to go. I think it was um it was it was in the second half, they were they were ahead and they turned the ball over in their own 22, and every other conventional rugby team just goes hoof it up the field, yeah. But they went, no, we're playing, we can see it. And he just goes, and it's only a half break. I think in the end they do end up kicking it away, but it's just the the bravery to go, I can see a gap I'm going for this, even though we're you know maybe a score and a half up in our own 22 in a European semi-final, it's your absolute bravery of action, yeah. Um, and then to have sort of Luku inside him, just this kind of metronomic again, no weaknesses, but no weaknesses to his game. I mean, he he doesn't have DuPont's absolute flair, but there's nothing he can't do, you know. He can jackle, he can tackle and hand you off, he can kick off both feet, he can kick off the T. You know, he's got a running game. I don't know, we just don't produce players of that this kind of quality, I think, in England on a on a the same consistent basis that they're they're doing at the moment, and that those two of them are just they're they're the difference makers. You know, up against Ben Spencer and Finn Russell, they were they were absolutely the difference makers. For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Um yeah, I I think every time we talk about a Bordeaux game, we wax lyrical about Luku and Jalibert. Um, quite rightly. They're just incredible players, and I think Luku, particularly unfortunate that he's come along at the same time as DuPont, because I think Luku would be probably the one we're talking about as being one of the best scrum halves in the world, but for some reason um he's always overlooked by his Toulouseian counterpart. Um but there's a number of other performances like Bordeaux. I I think their defensive game this season has been a real standout for me compared to last year. Last year, like it was very much like we'll score more than you, you may score lots against us, but you'll score more. I think we've seen this year that they've they've added to their repertoire this ability to really dig in and just be one of the toughest nuts to crack defensively, and it's it's so impressive. And I think it's it's that it's probably embodied most by Cameron Wockey, who is just absolutely covers so much ground.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

He's um I think this was it was really yeah, you're absolutely right. Their defence was incredibly impressive. Uh it really pit in my suite. I think it was a it was uh 73 minutes. It was after Big Ben scores his try under the sticks. Um so at that point it's I think it's 3119. Um 10 minutes or so to go, a little under 10 minutes. It's a two-score game, and Bath are on the attack in the red zone in the 22, and Bath get a line out, maul it, and then go into their pick and go game. Yeah. And you know, I know that you have your opinions on the Bath style of play, but Fed Russell was on the pitch, obviously. That's how they're playing. Yeah, but there's but there is no doubt that when Bath get into that into that zone and start playing that, they are hard to stop. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why they're so useful. And you know, this is approaching 75 minutes into the game, it's absolutely white hot heat of the you know, uh of a semi-final, everything's on the line. If Bath score now, it's on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they stop the line out mall, they stop the pick and goes, and they turn the ball over, you know, 10 metres off the try-line, 75 minutes 75 minutes into the match when Bath had brought on, you know, Ted Hill, Sam Underhill, Miles Reed, Epatu Polottu, Van Vijk, you know, um it's you know it's the exact thing Bath has been doing all season that every club up until now has not been able to stop in any way, shape. No one wants to be able to stop it, but but Bordeaux absolutely stopped it at a source, and you know, it's their their pack in some ways, the pack is from just names-wise, is quite unglamorous.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I'd agree. There's no outs, you know, out and out superstar about it. I mean, there's players that we like, you know, we love Big Ben Tamafuna. Oh, yeah, we do. But he's not he's not a superstar of the game in the same way that Jaliker is. He should be, and by rights, he you know, Carlo Sardi should be for just for his legs, you know, just those lovely thighs.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

But you know, it they're not, it's it's not really a superstar pack in that sense. But Wachi was pretty uh Gazotti was monstrous. He was monstrous, you know. His his power to finish that first try was phenomenal. Um, you know, Parlu, I I think is is a player and rapidly, rapidly love him. He's every time I watched this season, he's just an absolute handful with ball in hand.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah, and then uh Matthew, who's just had his got his first French cap in the Six Nations this year, he's he's a player as well, and he's pretty and obviously he's he scores the try, which sort of finishes it off.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Penno makes a you know again. That's another example. They were again they they've this is after the turnover we just talked about. They win the penalty, they go up the pitch, they win the line out, and you're in the bath half, you've got five minutes to go in the game. Yeah, what what what do you do? Well, you kill the clock, we kill the clock. No, no, you don't. You play off the line out, you offload it five times, you get it's a penno on the left wing who throws a one-handed offload inside that gets backed down by a bath player, and Matthew goes and runs it under the sticks. Because if you're Bordeaux, you can do that and you'll score a try. Every other team in the world kills that game. Yeah, yeah. No, Bordeaux just see penos three on the left we're playing. Offload it, jue, juez, jue.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

I think I think that is why. And everything like I'm a Northampton Saints fan. I should dis I should absolutely detest Bordeaux after last year's final, some of the fireworks with off-pitch stuff and all that sort of stuff. I absolutely love watching Bordeaux, and it's because of that. That's why I'm donning a Bordeaux kit today, another great visual aspect for this audio visual format. Um it's just it's it's really to be applauded. And I think the way they have merged together that mercurial run from anywhere ability with probably what is the strongest defensive game as well, is why they are so so tough to beat, as Toulouse found out in

Bath’s Errors Tackles And High Shots

SPEAKER_02 35:55

the last round, and as Bath found out this week. And I we probably should touch on a bit of Bath's performance. They well, we we've seen we've seen it's like 56% tackle success rate. You ain't winning nothing. It doesn't matter how many calls you think you got wrong from the ref. Uh you're not winning nothing with a 56% tackle success rate.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Uh well, I think their handling was their biggest problem. I mean, they talked about it a bit on commentary, but yeah, things like you know, how they presented the ball off the top of the line out. I mean, the line out fell apart at some point. 76% line out success, like that's poor. It's just not good enough at that level. At that point of a competition, it's not good enough. And you know, we've the line their line out's actually been surprisingly fallible. Um well you said the other week that they've they've actually got the worst line out in the Premier, haven't they? I didn't realise that. Something they said on the on commentary one week, yeah, which I thought I found hard to believe, but actually, if you think back on it, the line out hasn't been that good, which is strange when you think Tom Dunn's a very good lineup thrower, they've got plenty of good jumpers in it, you know, Quimroon, Charlie Reals, and Josh Bayliss and Guy Pepper can all jump very comfortably. Yeah, and they I don't know, they just seem to be they just seem to be sloppy in there. Um but sloppy.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Considering it's something that is such a source of a one of their biggest weapons, I'm so surprised it's allowed to be so sloppy by Van Gran. So to me, like I'm surely he's drilling that week in, week out to get that as precise as possible.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

You just such a big weapon for them, but you know, but but they were sloppy. I mean, there was a Finn Russell knock on at one point, which is really casual. Yeah, um in the midfield, you know, Santi Ferreras knocked it on when he when he shouldn't have. Um Arundel knocked it on a couple of times when you know you know, and don't get wrong, he had a tough battle in the air, but he didn't secure a few balls that he probably should have. Um, yeah, they were sloppy, I thought. I mean they also go, I mean Hennessy I thought was very good.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

His trite is Hennessy's he's one to watch, I think. Uh sadly, from a whales perspective, but he he's got something about him that's worth keeping an eye on.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, I also say what he's got. He he's got something from a mentality. I mean, the way that he celebrated his tri made me think, oh, uh yeah, you've you've got you've got a bit of grit about this. Bit of an edge of an edge.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I also it reminded me, because we've we've not had a lot of him this season. Will Muir is so good.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Great. Some of the takes, some of the takes he had. There was one he took under real pressure, bit of acrylic. Yeah, he took an absolute double top as well. Superb.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

I mean the horse. Yeah, he's unfortunately it looks like he's done in some sort of dislocation, wasn't it? Some sort of display. Yeah, it looks it looked painful. So that didn't look good for him for the rest of the season, which obviously is not ideal. Because I think with him on the wing, Bath do seem a lot more dangerous in the air than it was when Thokker the Singer and Arendell with Muir, it's a different different threat, I feel. Um, do we talk about Alfie Barbary's three potential high tackles? We probably should touch on it a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Yeah, I mean, yeah, look, there were you know, there there are there are three high shots in that game that at least one of them should have been called, and you know, Bath were unfortunately. But to be fair, Van Gran's called that out, but he if you read what he everything he he said, he was actually very conciliatory about the fact that World over the better sides on this, you know, he's not complaining about that for the win. Yeah, um, I actually thought Barbary, generally speaking, had a pretty good game. Um for Marsry. I thought he he I thought he carried really well. I think he he made a really good um really good account for himself in you know up against a defence that was not given a lot of change. Um I thought he just kept running into those brick walls and uh, you know, fair fair plainting on that. Um but yeah, there were there were two or three high shots that weren't that weren't called out.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

But it's like I said last week with uh a poker Gyampy where he got he got called out for a high hit against Saints. You're gonna get like you get like nine or ten of those style of high hits in every single game because the way people the way players of those size run into players now, they kind of know that they're kind of putting their head f first, and I think some refs, I think uh Nikra Mushvigavelli, whose name I always forget how to pronounce, some referees look at it that way and they say, Oh, for me it's chest on chest, they call it live. We spoke about the TMO situation, they're not gonna get a replay quick enough, so they're not gonna act on it. Yes, in hindsight, it looks like a high tackle, it looks like it should be a pen, maybe a yellow card for one or two. Not helped by Santi Carreras faking being hit in the head, so maybe you shouldn't cry wolf. Uh maybe a lesson learnt there. Um because that was blatant and the TV director picked up on that. Um but like those three hits had no bearing on Bath's performance. Bath's performance was of their own doing, and the level they needed to hit was of their own making, and nothing. The Bas had their own downfall in this one. So you know, I I I don't think they can have any real complaints. No, well, and if they were complaining, well, join the club of English sides who've been undone by refereeing decisions that have not gone in their favour because sometimes you win some, sometimes you lose some Bath fans. You won some last time, you lost some this time. Not bitter at all. Yeah, very very magnanimous statement. As I just move out of the way so you can see my signed Saints jersey behind my head. But you know, it's like from a perspective of a very unneutral neutral in this game, you can't complain about a refereeing performance not going your favour when the week in the round before you've had a couple of favourable decisions go your way. It happens in the sport, you just have to roll with it. The way the laws are written, there's interpretation, things are gonna go ways in certain ways that you don't like, you have to accept it.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

If you but if you're gonna you know, talk about Sandy Carreras knocking over the try-line early on and the fact that Russell threw a terrible pass that went too high as well. You know, talk about the line-out ball that you didn't present well enough. Talk about you know passes thrown at Barbary's ankles.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Oh yeah. I don't think they can they can, you know, well, talk about it. I don't think they can they can actually have any stop missing 44% of your tackles. Like exactly. And look, don't be wrong, it must be really hard to tackle a lot of these players, but you know, it ultimately if you're gonna get to a final, you're gonna have to.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, I agree. Uh and Bordeaux were just silky smooth, and they rode it and they were they were they were good for the win. Um in the other semi-final, because obviously we shouldn't just talk just

Leinster’s Suffocation Job On Toulon

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Bordeaux versus Bath. Obviously, there was another game at this round. There certainly was. Probably a bit less controversial of a game, but you know, Leinster up against Toulon. Obviously, we still had Leo Cullen coming out firing, so there's a little bit of controversy around this game in some sense, but um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Leo Cullen moaning about the the media being so against Leinster. Everyone's always against poor old Leinster, who had yet another home semi-final in the neutral ground, which is the ground they always play in. So poor old Leinster.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Just because we lost last year, why are you being so mean to us?

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Um, yeah, I'd yeah, I don't buy it. I think Leinster, you're looked after quite nicely. I wouldn't worry too much. And you know, you did win this game, so maybe be happy about it. Um even though I don't feel like Leinster have been that impressive this year, they've done that thing where they just keep winning regardless.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Well, I'll tell you where they were very impressed in this game, is they blitzed Toulon out of it for about well, for 70 minutes effectively. Yeah, Toulon just could not get round them. Um to Asuvus Bry in the first half um aside, which is basically the only time Toulon were able to string together consistent, effective phases um for for most of the game. Um Jamine finded him on the edge with a really nice pass. The rest of it, Toulon just just suffocated them in defence. Um they they got away with it a bit in this game because Harry Byrne had a poor game, picked badly. I mean, he missed two in front of the posts. Yeah no, one in front of the post, one was when he was when he was binned off as well. Um missed touch um off penalties. I mean, just seemed to struggle with the occasion at times.

unknown 43:59

Um

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Um, but you know, their big players stepped up, you know, Onan powers over, Van der Fleer powers over, Ringrose, Doris, you know, that when these are the names that are scoring, you know, and it's Leinster, it's always these names, obviously. But they were the players that really stood up and were counted in this one. Um, Andrew Porter had his best game probably all season. I know he's been injured a lot. Um, and you know, Toulon, I think Toulon will be disappointed that they didn't get on top in the scrum. They really got on the wrong side of the referee early on in that um against uh a Leinster scrum that's not been entirely infallible this season, I think. No, um they'll also just be disappointed that their their handling let them down, um, you know, under pressure from Leinster, but you know, it was I I think Toulon will feel like this was a missed opportunity because it's not an unbeatable Leinster side this season. No, but they they still have that something about them that makes them hard to beat, and Bordeaux will not be able to take them lightly.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

No, even if they're not maybe the Leinster team of no, so I think what we saw in this game was is basically what we'll probably see from Leinster in the final is that they put every effort into suffocating Toulon in having any form of quick ball, any form of multiple phases, like their their defensive line speed just absolutely suffocated Toulon in the centres, and you're like well it's it's a much harder assignment, but if if you can stop things at source, like granted, Luku and Jallybear are a very different proposition to Sinzel and forgive me who else was there, um obviously just different levels, but just Toulon just didn't seem to be able to create anything for a large part of the game, and it's just because of the Lenster defense, it was it wasn't it wasn't anything clever, it wasn't anything fancy, it wasn't anything showy. But Lenster showed how you can really get to a team and stop them from doing anything. And then when you get on top of a team like that, you then start getting opportunities yourself because panic sets in that feel when things aren't working, especially a team like Toulon. If it's not working, that's when they start imploding a little bit, and and Leinster are able when they had their opportunities to really strong arm their over and then put scoreboard pressure on, and then that just adds to it.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

I I also think if I was Toulon, and I really like Ben White, I think he's a really good scrum half, but they looked infinitely better when Sarran came on, and obviously you know, two of their three tries came from Serran being on the pitch, one of which he scores, the other which he um effectively um tests with the with an offload. Um uh where he assists this is the offloads off to Albanos, who who kicks a lovely off off uh crossfield over to Drehan. Prendigas making a classically poor attempt at tackling, um why he wasn't starting. Yeah, as a reason why he's been delegated to the 22 shirt. You know, and and Toulon nearly won it, you know. Let's let's not be frank, you know, Jamine right at the end breaks, Drehan really nearly gets it away, and if his Iwani does really well to catch him, but if that offload goes to Tuasuvo, yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. And then who was it? Was it Albanoz got pinged and when just when Toulon needed to get something to go their way to get the ball back, and it just kind of gifted Lens the opportunity to do what Bordeaux should have done and just play the game out and not do anything flashy. Uh so yeah, Leinster done what Leinster do. They won. They didn't win necessarily pretty, but they won effectively and sets up Bordeaux Lens to final. I'm still trying to decide whether I'm excited by that prospect or not.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

I'll be very excited if Bordeaux win it handsomely.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Which I could well happen because I also don't think Leinster have been exposed to a tough I think they got quite a lucky draw this year, I think it's fair to say. I don't think that no one was expecting to lose and Bordeaux to be in the same half of the the knockout table, for instance. That's true. Um so I think Leinster had a relatively comfortable run-in, let's say. Um, and I don't think they've been challenged the way Bordeaux will challenge them. So I think it could well.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

I mean, I also just think out and out Bordeaux are just the best team. I just I just think the long and short of it is I just think Bordeaux are the best team in Europe. Yeah, um and after the last couple of weeks of European competition, I don't think it's that close.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

No, no, it's yeah, hard to think of another European team who's anywhere near them, really, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Um I mean to lose at their best, but other than that, but if well they they beat Toulouse, like they beat Toulouse quite constantly in the end. So yeah, ultimately, I just think it's it's Bordeaux and then everyone else, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah, the only weird thing is that they lost to Montpellier in the top 14 a week before. Uh at home. Figure that out. Top 14 is a weird league. It's a weird old league. So we yeah, I think they've lost seven times this season. It's a weird old league, but yeah, I I think maybe that just shows that they're really focused on going back to back in the Champions Cup more so than anything else, which probably is what's going on here. Uh, but yeah, so that sets up Champions Cup final in Bilbao between Bordeaux and Leinster.

Challenge Cup Ulster Montpellier Final

SPEAKER_02 49:10

So, you know, strap in folks. That should be a good game. Uh, do we do a slight nod to the Challenge Cup, Rory? Do we do we do we give that competition a little bit of airtime?

SPEAKER_00 49:20

We don't normally do, but you know. Um, well, I think I think we should just mention that in the the final will be Ulster against Montpellier. Um Montpellier squeaking past the Dragons 18-12. Um and Ulster um relatively comfortable against Extra Chiefs 29-12. Um, you know, disappointing for the for the Chiefs, but um yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah, it's I feel like injuries and I I think maybe their seasons not petering out, but I think what we've seen from so far this season, maybe we're starting to see that it's momentum slowing down a little bit. And I don't know, it just it just feels like had this game been played two months ago, it could have been a different story.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Uh yeah, they they they're not quite as infallible as they were a couple of months ago, but you know, I think they'll be disappointed not to be. I know Ulster, I think, are a much improved side this year. I think they're much more competitive than URC. Yeah. Um, I know there's controversy around um Fayo Boso not being allowed to play again in a with a high shot that wasn't deemed to be high danger, uh, from what I can tell. I think it's a bit of a it's another sort of storm and seek up, but it's a it's an interesting talking point for Baxter, I suppose, to kind of slightly detract from having lost this game.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. It's interesting how they manage because I think in the back three, he's probably a bit annoyed because back three, then I think they're really down to bare bones because they haven't got a fullback. I think Brown Bampo's injured Fayer Boso's probably gonna have to do some return to play protocol stuff. They're gonna be really relying on Campbell Riddle to do a hell of a lot.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Um maybe they shouldn't have let Josh Hobbs go.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Well, there's a thought for you. Um, yeah, that they'll just be focused on the Prem now, securing that top four spot. Um, but yeah, so that's the challenge cup, Ulster versus Montpelier. And unfortunately, we were stolen from the fans' favourite pick of the Dragons getting to a champion challenge cup file. I imagine that that happens from the start of the season from where we're gonna be. Newport would have been out in Spain, would have been it would have been rocking, but not to be this year. But fair play to the dragons getting to the semi-final stages. Right, Rory. I think we've covered European competition well enough there. Yes, if it it feels like we've discussed the civil war going on

RFU Review And Borthwick Stays

SPEAKER_02 51:35

in rugby at the moment quite well. But you know Schisms, schisms, but you know, there's a time now where we can focus on moving forwards, and that's exactly what the RFU have done, Rory, because they've done an assessment of Steve Borthwick's tenure, his performance, grasping a powerful fifth place out of six in this year's Sixth Nation, and they've said he's the man for the job, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Do you mean uh the report entitled Project Nothing to See here?

SPEAKER_02 52:03

The very same. It's almost like they've chosen the week where there's been so much going on the rugby world news that this is the week to drop that news.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Interesting idea that we've we've searched high and low, we've uh we've left no stone unturned, and we've decided uh everything's fine, just carry on as we are.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah, nothing to see here, as you said. So we're gonna help out. We're gonna do our bit, Rory, because Steve Borthwick's got a lot on his plate. Apparently, there's a lot of commitments and agreements as part of this where he's gonna make changes, he's gonna change things up in order to address the things that went wrong. Perfect, great, love to hear that. What we're gonna do for you, Mr. Borthwick, we're gonna run through what an England squad should be looking like going into the summer based on the form players in the Prem to try and save you a bit of that agony about who to pick and who not to pick. Because it's the least we can do, and you know, there's only been a couple of games, so we had a bit of spare time to really get our heads into something else for once. So, Rory, should we go position by position? The players Borthwick needs to be considering going into the summer, and um especially if we're going on this angle of that he needs to

England Front Row And Locks Picks

SPEAKER_02 53:10

do something slightly different. How does he approach that? So let's start propping department.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah, so I've gone with a 36-man squad for the summer.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Okay, fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

That that tracks with what it should be, yeah. Yeah, so I've got six props, um, and I've gone based on current form. Which is quite weighted to current form as opposed to maybe some more um establishment, and also it it's current form and who's currently playing, so I haven't picked anyone who's currently injured or I believe to still be injured.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Sorry, Finn Baxter.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Well, yes, so at Luce prop, I've got Ellis Genj, naturally. Yeah, Manny Ogan. Glad you said that, because he's one that I think's really hit form. Yeah, and in the absence of Finn Baxter, I think that probably means you turn to Benno Abano. I think it's about time. He I think at this point he did you know if Finn Baxter's not gonna have played for months on end. I think Beno Abano deserves a show. He's playing really well for Bath. I mean, and he he's been playing well for Bath for a couple of season, he's really unlucky not to have got a cap. And I know from the way people talk about it, he's desperate to get a cap as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Yeah, I I think he's he's probably one of the unlucky players to have not picked up more caps. Um, he's certainly he's certainly got the game at the set piece. I think he's he's good enough at the scrum for the international level. Yeah. I I'm just amazed you didn't um canvas for Valrapava Ruskin to finally get his chance. But tempting.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Um but I think off the back of one really good game, there's probably not quite enough of Alan. We're the best in the world. I love I love Val to pieces. I think he's I think he's been a really underrated prop in the Prem, and I think he probably should have got more recognition at international level at various points in his career, often buttressed by injuries at bad times.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

But 33 now, not a good injury record, is probably not gonna happen for him, which is a shame because in his pomp, genuinely could have been world-class, I think. But he's struck down by injuries at really bad times. So, yeah, I'm happy with those loose heads. I haven't got any challenges for you there. I think I think maybe others may say Finn Baxter, they may say Bevan Rodd, but as you say, form injury both injured, both injured, I think.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Um neither of them are playing Fantastic Rugby at the moment, or were playing fantastic rugby before they got injured. Um I think those those three are in much better fettle. Agreed. Tight heads. Uh Joe Hayes, easy one. Has to be there. Yeah. Uh AstraPoca for journey. Um, just because although form not great, but actually at this point you're getting quite low in the tight head stocks with Trev injured, uh, was it Will Stewart's injured?

SPEAKER_03 55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Um the third man I'm gonna take. I was tempted to say for Sogbon, but I actually think if you're gonna go on form, you've got to give it to Klosker.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

I'm glad you said that because I think our our remit for this was to think about form. For Sogbon, we've discussed it recently. Like scrum time, yeah, does the work. He's only had like one game out of the last four where he seems to be doing more than just scrumming. Yeah, and we can't go off based off that one Glostas one good game, basically.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yeah, when when it actually comes to selecting it, and if you want to say, well, we we want a third tie head there, but we're gonna pick for Solomon because we think he's got the highest ceiling, I think there's a logic to it. But if you're picking on form, Klosker's been above.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

I think he's one of those players really understated, really well, unsung, genuine. I also think the way he works with Ellis Genge is really positive. I think those two seem to work well together, and you just look at Klosker's work rate, it's incredible for a tired prop, and it's one of those things that is always underappreciated in forwards. Yeah. So yeah, I I would love to think that Borthwick would consider rewarding Closker with an opportunity in the summer because I think of all the tired props, he's the one that's probably worked the hardest for it in the league this this season so far. Um I'm in agreement, I'm in agreement. Hooking department, interesting one, because injuries and all sorts going on in this space.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah, this is this is not uh this one I wouldn't be surprised if there was more challenge to this one, but I've gone with Jamie George, yeah, Jamie Blameier, and Nathan Jabulu. I think now you can make a case for Theodan. You can Curtis Landon's obviously in and around coming back from injury, but you know, he's had about 40 minutes of game time. Yeah, and then he's got in again, so I don't think I don't think we'll see him again for a couple weeks. Ogre's out for the season. Yeah. Um obviously Luke Kandick is out for the season. Outside of that, you I I think Jabulu has to be the pick. I mean, I think Theo Dan would be the would be the natural challenge to that. Well, I think I think Jabulu's there's one man you're forgetting.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

There's one man you're forgetting, Rory.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Tom Dunn. Well, yeah, Tom Dunn, yes. That's true. I mean, Tom Dunn, I mean, and you can make the case of Keppetopilotto as well if you're going on that basis. I think Tom Dunn, a great servant of Bath. You know, he's got his cap and he's well deserved. He probably deserved to get more recognition at international level across his career. I think I just think he's just not quite mobile enough for the game that I think England need to play. I think he's then Tuopolotu definitely comes into the equation, then doesn't he?

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Well Tuoplotti absolutely does get into the equation. And I think form-wise, form-wise, tuopolotti fits in as well. Because I think his form's better than Theodan's, for example. Yeah, his his his disciplinary record's better than Jabulu's. That's that's a fair challenge.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

And I I think Jabulu's Jabulu on this list is probably the one that I was least certain of, but I thought up until the ban, I thought he was playing really well. I thought he was on a really good trajectory. I think he's got all the bits that you you're gonna need to be a good international hooker. So I just think he just sneaks it in for me. I think Theodan's set piece isn't good enough, particularly his line out. I think Keppa Tupolotto will be there, but I think maybe it's a summer too early. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Part of me wonders with Tupilotto. I I I think I'll be more I'll be more surprised to see Jibulu there than I would Tupotti because I just have a feeling Tupoto's one of those players that England are are likely to kind of fast track in the same way they're kind of doing. I can see him in there against Fiji. Yeah, yeah. So I I think although I agree with what you're saying about Jibulu, like disciplinary record for one side, I well we've said already on this podcast that we really rate and think he's got the all-round game. I just got this feeling that the RFU are kind of putting their eggs in the Tuplottu basket already, because they've been really behind him for some time, and there's been a lot of a lot of noise.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

I could absolutely see him in there. I I could see him there, but Jibulu would get my nod, but if you bring bring Turpilotu in, I'm not gonna throw my toys out the pro.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

Yeah, because there you go, because Jamie George is probably he's gonna be the starter, let's face it. Um, so you can kind of afford to have a youngster in Turpilot mold there to kind of be the third choice there. So yeah, I'm not yeah, that's the front row sorted. Locks Rory. I will say before you say Alex Coles is back on the training pitch.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Yeah, no, Alex Coles is in there. So I've got Maratoge, Chasm, Alice Coles, and then I thought, do I fast track George Martin back in? Thought no. Ask us again in a few weeks' time. Yeah, ask me again in three weeks' time, and he's probably in there. Thoughts of the fourth slot, I am gonna give it to Arthur Clark because I think in a poor season from Gloucester, he's been pretty consistent. Uh, he's been pretty good in the last few weeks, very good last week. And I think he's got the raw ingredients that you'd I think would be of interest to both of them. You know, he's six foot a million, he's big, he's heavy, he's got much better hands than you'd expect for a man his size. Hits hits rucks, hits malls, makes his tackles. Yeah, I think I think there's something in there, and you know I really like I'm but George Martin is still fit by the summer, and you take him, I'm I've got no quick qualms with it. I think again, maybe bias, which you know I'm occasionally guilty of. Tom Lockett. Considered, um, and was definitely in the conversation with that. I and he has played quite a bit recently. I don't know if he's played enough across this season for me, or maybe it's just he's been overshadowed by a VDM. He casts a mighty big shadow, Rory. He does cast a mighty big shadow. Um, but I do like Lockett. If he was in there, I wouldn't be upset.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

And how about this curveball? If Borfick really wanted to really test the waters of youngsters, Elliot Williams.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Well, he's got the size for it. He's absolutely got the size for it, and I think he's got the talent for it. Um, I mean, the fact that he's 18 is just baffling to me. Um wouldn't hate it as a call. I suspect they'll want him to go with the under 20s.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

Yeah, because South Africa are looking scary again this year in the under-20s. Yeah, huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Um but he's definitely one to watch. I mean, you know, he's you can absolutely see that he's gonna have Ingman caps. I think I'd be amazed if he didn't end up with with a bag full of them. I I completely agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Uh it's just you know, just putting it out there as trying to help Borthwick out here. But no, yeah, I've agree. It's got yeah, I think I for me personally, a toji and coles, are you starting locks, Chesham potentially in the sixth shirt, maybe interchange coals and chesham? Um I think those three are nailed on. Um Martin. I I I personally am on the fence with Martin because he's been out for so long. I know how good he can be when he's fit, but we need to see that in a Leicester shirt before I'm like let's catapult him straight back in because well, he's been rushed back a couple of times already and then he's disappeared for another few months. Let's let's see what he's like with a few games under his belt before let's say he's ready for you know running out against New Zealand or South Africa or whoever else we've got in the summer. Uh maybe against Fiji. Uh but yeah, I'm not too against those picks. I can't I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head who is glaringly shouting pick me, pick me, pick me. Uh other than Ed Prouse, but you know, that would be my bias. Back row Rory. Easiest slash hardest area, because I think there's too many players for how many positions.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Yeah, this is you have to make some quite brutal calls. Um so for example, I haven't picked Barbary. I'm I'm leaning more towards maybe he does need to get a shot at international. I I I'd have Barbary there. I would. But I'll tell you who I have picked. So if you want Barbary, then fair enough, but you tell me who to drop out.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

I've got Sam Underhill, Guy Pepper, Benell, Corney Laws.

unknown 1:03:40

Oh yeah, he's back.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

He's back. Henry Pollard, Craig Fizzelau, and Charma Cunningham South. So I'm fast tracking Laws back in. I love it.

Back Row Balance And Scrum Half Form

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

I love it. He's back beating. Yeah. Well, I'm not dropping Laws for Barbary, that's for sure. Um I mean my argument would be if you've got Laws there, do we need Fizzelow Earl and Cunningham South? All kind of vying for the eight shirt and Pollock, arguably. So I'll probably drop one of those for probably I'll probably drop Cunningham South just because of form. He's not been in good form, the Barbary, yeah. Yeah. Because we don't need Cunningham South. I think that's Cunningham South's like he's a strong pick because he can cover second row and six and eight. But if you've got Courtney Laws, he covers second row and six. We're picking a bunch of locks who can also cover six. We don't need that flexibility from cunning himself now. So if we're picking him to be an eight, Barbary's been a better eight this season than Cunning himself has. Fair shout. So you're dropping Cunning himself. Oh, and there'll be people saying Don Brandt.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Um I'm not saying Don Brandt.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

Yeah, I'm saying people, not saying us. You're saying Quints fans, aren't you? Yeah, Quince fans will be saying Donbrandt.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

That's that's been very rude because Don Brandt's actually been very good in a poor Quinn's side in recent weeks, but for me, not if I'm gonna pick an out and out eight in that mould, I'm picking Barbary.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

Yeah, I agree. I think he's as close as we could get to Tom Willis without being able to pick Tom Willis, which unfortunately we can't pick Tom Willis. Um we'd love to. Okay, scrum half Rory. This one's a bit more straightforward. I'd like to think it's kind of half of the course, maybe, or are you throwing a bit of a curveball in? Possibly a bit of a curveball.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

I've gone Mitchell, I've gone Spencer, and I've gone McParland. Rory, you're finally getting on board with the Saints way of thinking. I love it. Well look, so Van Porfleet obviously would have been in the conversation. I think he's played very well for Tigers. Big fan of Rafi Quirk, uh, big fan of Lucas Friday, yeah. Um, you know, Harry Randall's um still knocking about and playing very well for Bristol. Charlie Bracken. Charlie Bracken, I'm a big fan of, um, and I think he's got a an international future. But if I'm thinking right now, who's been playing the best rugby at nine in the last four or five months, is Archie Pollins.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah, arguably he's he's had better games than Mitchell.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

Yeah. And I don't think it's fallible. I don't I don't think he starts. I think he I don't even think he necessarily gets in the match day squad um straight away, but I think he's earned a shot at the at the uh at the shirt.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Yeah, I I really, really don't hate it, Roy. I didn't I did not think you were gonna go this way. Uh I was gonna make that argument.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Uh you were you were on your toes, I could see it, you were ready to go for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:21

But because I I thought you were gonna so and quite rightly Borfolk is probably gonna go Mitchell Spencer, that Port Fleet. Um but I'd love to see him throw McParland in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Um look, I for all the reports are they are big fans and they are all looking at him very closely. So they blimmin' well should be Rory. Fly half Mark Smith, George Ford.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

I was gonna skate away from the fact that you're not gonna claim George Ford's in red hot form, are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

No, but I also I also think this England squad can't afford to dispose of natural leaders when you look at everyone else who's in there at the moment, which is one of the reasons why I'm fast tracking Courtney Laws back in. Yeah, yeah. Um I know this is this is the form squad, but let's also be fair and say Ford was up until very recently in possession of the England shirt. Um, and I think you probably still gotta take three tens. Yeah. So you could take, but look, you can definitely make the other for Billy sell 100% from a form perspective. Yeah. Um, and I completely buy why by why you would. Um, you know, Charlie Atkinson uh has been in and around that. Um what about Owen Farrell from a leadership perspective, if that's what you want? Well, that's a yes, there's a there's a question around that. Has he played that well for Saracens? In recent weeks, he's probably played better than George Ford has. Yeah, I think this is probably the one call where I'm gonna say no, I'm still keeping George Ford there.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

Oh, I agree. I'm just being a little bit devil's advocate, advocate for you, you're all right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

It's a fair it's a fair question, it's an absolutely fair question, and I think others will ask it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

But and it does still I think we are lucky, we do we do have some good tens on our like Finn Smith. Again, I I think I do think he could genuinely be world class, uh, and he's on on the way to being world class, and George Ford has been and continues to be world class, and Marcus Smith has world-class moments. I still worry a little bit about depth at the fly half position. Um I think we both thought the likes of Ben Cohen would get a bit more game time down at Exeter, he's not been given much of a shot. I just I worry about three, four years time when Ford's probably not gonna be around, Farrell's not gonna be around, um, Marcus Smith will be what early 30s by that stage. He says what that next phase because I I know I've got I've got high hopes for the likes of James Lineger. Uh there's a couple of others who are coming through who could be really good, but I was worried that we don't seem to have that next one coming through the system at the moment who's pushing for a game time in the prem team.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Well, we've also got a lot of very strong tens in the league, to be fair. So, what you're saying is we can get rid of Finn Russell, get Kieran Donahue playing more. I I think you'll start to see some of that, to be to be honest. To be to be completely frank with you, I think you're gonna start seeing some of that change of the goal happening. Um there'll also be there'll be spots up for grabs at the likes of possibly at Saracens, possibly at Tigers. Yeah. Red Bulls.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

I'm really intrigued where Red Bulls go for their 10 shirt. Really intrigued. I know they're signed Zach Henry, who's an English qualified 10, so he arguably could come into this equation, but let's face it, he isn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:39

They're not signed him as a superstar 10 forever, but they will want one at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um you know, I think there's potentially a spot at Bears coming up because Tom Jordan, although he's 10, you know, he's 10, 12, 13, 15, yeah, and AJ McGenji can only play for so long. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think there'll be spots for young tens coming through, but I think with those three is still pretty well sorted. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

Okay. I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Tenters Rory.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

Um tough. Have recent injuries changed your approach? Obviously, Lawrence the Jomo.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Do we know how long a Jomo's out for? No, I don't know off the

Selecting Tens Centres Wings Fullbacks

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

top of my head, but it doesn't matter. The feeling is not too bad an injury, so I've I've kept a Jomo in my squad. Okay. I've got Dingwall, Seb Atkinson, Oni Lawrence, and Max the Jomo. Henry Slade.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Henry Slade might have an argument about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Well, Henry Slade nearly got in, and if I'd had another slot in my squad, Henry Slade would have been in there. You could probably argue Slade over Ford.

unknown 1:10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

That might be an argument.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

Yeah, I think that's that would be a fair argument, um, especially because he does offer place kicking and leadership.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:49

And well, let's uh let that's that's the one concession I'll make to this, because I'd I think they'll still pick George Ford. But for a form squad, we can have Henry Slade in over George Ford. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

Litchfield, yeah, interesting shout. He's he's a name that hasn't I haven't heard being rumoured anywhere close to an English shirt, but if you're actually a rapid rise. Yeah, if you have to look at form, he's definitely been up there in terms of centres. Will Wand's been brilliant for Tigers. I really like Will Wand. Um I think he's he's definitely one to watch. Uh who else? Well, is it oh it's the autumn Van Rensburg becomes available, isn't it? Yeah. So he's not he's not in. Massey White. I think it's hard to make an argument for any sale player to be in on the form election.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:34

No, I think he might end up being a bit one-dimensional.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

I'll tell you, probably nowhere near the squad, but who has impressed me, and maybe one to watch three two, three years' time. Reese Beekman's up at Red Bulls. He keeps getting game time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:49

Which he probably won't. Which he probably won't. But you know, if he does and play with some high quality players around him.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Because he's he's a big unit, he runs hard, he's got the good hands. So he's one of those players. And Chris Harris. Yeah. Well, we won't be seeing him again. Uh oh dear. Uh but no, I just thought I'm trying to think of other curves. No, it's it's again centers has long been in the area that I feel like England depth-wise. We've got a lot of solid players, but we don't quite necessarily seem to have the high quality ones. But maybe maybe there's a few more coming through. But yeah, I think I think the the four slash five will be going with a sleigh change. They're they feel like the most accurate ones. Wings war Wings Warwee. Rings Rory. Rings Warwee. Um Tommy Freeman.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

Has to be there. Manifellaboso. If he remains fit. If he remains fit. Tom Roebuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:49

And Paul Brown Bampo. I do love a bit of PBB. I do love a bit of PBB. So Robuck. Now obviously the notable missing name there is Noah Clory. 18 tries and nine games.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

Again, I I guess your argument is that they'll want him for the under 20s.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

Yes, that's yeah, at the moment. And I think we don't have to rush him in just yet. No. Whilst he's still developing his all-round game.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

But I mean, I I think if he keeps scoring if he keeps his try scoring record up on the run-in for Saracens, and if that leads to them getting a top four spot, which I know is highly, highly unlikely. But say if he picks up another four, five, six tries, I think he then he could easily overtake Tom Roeback in that. I think if that happens, it almost makes it impossible for Bolfick to not pick him. Because one, how can a player who's 19 years old break the single season try soaring record and then not pick them? You always become un you can't you can't not pick him in that season. You can't ignore it at that point, yeah. But yeah, but if Saracens there's there's a there's a bit for a Saracen about whether they manage him because they went for a bit in the middle of the season where they they just stopped picking him, sent him back to Amt Hill, took him out of the limelight, and let him focus on his game. They could choose to do that again in the run into the season to pr to protect him, like quotations for those listening, I'm doing the bunny is um protect him from that England selection, uh, knowing that it could break him because we've seen that international rugby gone too soon can really put a player back in their development. Um that's on Saracens, whether they think it's the right thing for him or not. Um I'd still so maybe some other Caden Merley, perhaps I I love Caden Murley, I think he's been really, really good for Quinn's in obviously Tussing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:32

I think he's a proper leader in that team, absolutely carries that team on its back. But I've got four spots, and I just think Paul Brown Bampo has been better. I think he's got a more interesting ceiling. Um and I just kind of want to see I just want to see what what he could do in that environment because I think his raw talent is almost only almost as good as Manifo Aboso. I think maybe not quite Manifoa Boso, but he's like 95% of the way there, and that is still a bloody good player.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

Yeah, I I I I agree. He's got that he's still got that similar explosiveness, but he's just he's a bit rangier with it, and he's got a bit more of an aerial threat to his game. And I I'd really see a foot race between the two, because I'm not certain who the quickest would be. Because I think difficult to know because their running styles are very different as well, which is again poses different questions to the tacklers about how you tackle them because they got they've both got quite awkward running styles to be to be tackled. Um late shout, he's started picking up a little bit of form.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

Yeah, needs to pick up a bit more form for me. Umbertoy probably needs to pick up a bit more form after long injury layoff. Um Campbell Riddle's Radwan, both would be in and around the mixer. Um wing is a player, is a is an area that we're pretty well stacked. Yeah, but I'm pretty comfortable with Freeman, Manifoboso, Tom Roebuck, Paul Brown Bampo at the minute. Although I think Tom Roebuck is the most vulnerable of those four from a form perspective. Yeah, for sure. I still think he actually plays quite well for sale in limited opportunity, but he's from a form perspective, he's probably the most vulnerable for me. Yeah, I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

Okay, fullback, is it quite straightforward? Furbank and steward.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:30

Yeah, I if I'd had another spot, I'd have put Hendy in as well, just because I love him. Yeah, but 36 was my limit. Um, and I think Freddie Stewart may not be the right player at the wrong time. I think there are there are I think 2019. I think Freddie Stewart is England's fullback, you know, maybe even over Mike Brown. But the game has slightly moved on. The blitz defense means you need another pair of hands who can play make, which is Furbank, but at the same time, there's not actually a load of fullbacks pulling up trees from an English perspective at the moment, so you'd have to still pick him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think Furbank is the is the obvious answer. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

I think Furbanks obviously the thing with Stewart is he always looks really impressive for Leicester, but whenever he pulls on an English shirt, it's never quite the same. He just looks whether it's a confidence thing, because I know he's had a fair few hits. You also have to remember he's like he's 24, he's still really young.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

He's young, and also I think it's really easy to forget when you're not, you know, we're obviously not in these environments ourselves. The step up from Prem to international is insane, yeah. You know, it's it's it is it is a massive, massive step up, and being a good club player doesn't translate automatically to being a good international player. Um, not to say that he isn't a good international player, but it's these things are not straightforward, it's a different sport in many ways. It's like if you know, if you're if you're a cricket fan and you went to watch a county championship game, you would spot every week three or four bowlers that you look at and go, how is he not getting picked for England? He's he's taking wickets left, right, and centre. But you put him in into an international into an international environment against international batsmen, and they'll they're getting carted all over the field. Because just the the you don't have the the time, the the space to think, you know, all the things that give you give Freddie Stewart time and space in the backfield, he cuts really good lines, he's obviously big, he's physical, he you know, he will decimate club team defences. But if you take that away from him and you force him to do things uncomfortable or less comfortable with, like playmaking behind a blitz defence, it just isn't quite as effective. But that all being said, I don't think you can not pick him at the moment because there's not a glut of really good English fullbacks.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

No, well, other English fullbacks, Josh Hodge, not really not really proven much this season, moved to Red Bulls, um, didn't wasn't setting things on fire at Chiefs before he left.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

Carpenter's been injured. Carpenter's the one that I think has got real potential, but he's you know his injuries are just sort of hampering him at the moment. Obviously, Hendy is is absolutely got potential to do something there, but you're tossing weather daily on the screen heap. Well, he's broken his arm.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

Oh, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I keep forgetting. So yeah, it's quite a long injury list for England, actually, at the moment, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:30

Yeah, Malins, maybe I mean he's you know, he's coming in his arm, he's coming in. Maybe Malins will get another look in if they absolute decide they need a playmaking fullback, then Malin's probably makes sense to take

Healing Rugby Schisms And Signing Off

SPEAKER_00 1:19:40

a look at again. But his chance may have gone.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:43

Yeah, yeah, I think you're quite right. Well, Mr. Borthwick, saved you a bit of time there. Just follow our lead. There's your squad. Go go go do some of the other stuff you need to focus on that you said you're gonna work on. We got that covered.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

And um we'll do selection and um we'll um we'll negotiate on payment.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:04

Yeah, all in good time. We'll wait for the call. But I think for this week, Rory, I think that's us covered. I I it feels like we've we've danced around, you know, the schisms, the of the the stuff going on in the world of rugby. We want to heal the schisms of rugby.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

We're a heel. We want to bring people together.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:24

Yeah, we're we're not here about being divisive.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

We're not apart from you know, Bar fans and Quinn's fans and Chiefs fans and Bristol fans.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

Other than all those pockets of fans. Other than all people we've upset. Yeah, we want to bring everyone together and move the sport forward. Um so you know, hey, Andy Good, if you want to come on this podcast and tell us how you're really feeling, that's fine. Squidge, if you want to come on and tell us how you're really feeling, that's fine too. You're welcome. You're both welcome. And Monsieur French TV director, you're welcome too. We're all welcome to director. You're all welcome here at Rux Bulls and Oval Bulls. Now, on that note, Rory, do you have a final thought for the listener? Uh bring me more trophies.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:13

Three isn't enough. Lions, lions, lions.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:17

And with that, yet another rendition of Lions Lion Lions. Ruxballs and Ovalballs has come to a finish this week. We'll be back again next week to talk more rugby stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

But if you've enjoyed the listening, make sure to like, follow, subscribe, and uh we'll be back again soon. Terra.