The Art of Film Funding
Discover the secrets to funding and creating successful indie films with The Art of Film Funding Podcast. Join Carole Dean, President of From the Heart Productions and author of The Art of Film Funding, and Heather Lenz, director of the award-winning documentary Kusama-Infinity, as they chat with top film industry pros. Get practical insider tips on crowdfunding, pitching, saving on budgets, marketing, hybrid distribution, and the latest in A.I. filmmaking. Whether you’re funding your first project or navigating new trends, this podcast has everything you need to succeed. Subscribe and let’s get your film funded!
The Art of Film Funding
Rogovy Foundation contributes to education & environmental films
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SPEAKER_04Hi and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. We have two very special guests today. Hugh Rogovi founded the Rogovi Foundation in 2015 after a successful career with Satori Software, which he co-founded in 1982. He holds a BA in philosophy from Miami University. After living in Seattle, then London for many years, Hugh now makes New York City his home, from where he shares a passion for travel, painting, and documentary films. Hugh sees the Rogovi Foundation as a means to contribute to the future of our planet, focusing upon his interests in education, civics, and the environment. With a primary focus upon documentary films, the foundation has now supported over 70 projects with over $2 million in grants. Since relocating to New York City, Lulu Parent has been working for the Ragovi Foundation and is now the Foundation's manager for grant development. She oversees the Miller Packen Documentary Fund, which has provided over $1 million to nearly 60 films to date. She also explores and develops other funding activities looking for opportunities for the foundation to further its mission of supporting education, the environment, and civics in ways that can have an impact. And Carol, the Ragovi Foundation grant has benefited many filmmakers, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, you're right, Claire. Thank you both for joining us. We're honored to have the two of you. And let's start with an overview of the Ragovi Foundation, its mission, and what inspired you to establish the foundation. Please.
SPEAKER_00And basically, as as the my my son and Lulu and I discussed, you know, what could we do to give back, to use that phrase? And we landed, of course, we wanted to start a foundation, but the question was, what is the foundation's focus and mission? And we really landed on uh documentary film as being a wonderful vehicle to uh create some impact and change because of how people relate to documentaries. Um as a as a sideline emphasis, we also uh focus a lot on investigative journalism, which we can talk about a little bit later, but it overlaps with documentary films.
SPEAKER_01Investigative journalism, yes, we will get into that. That's very important. Uh but thank you for deciding on documentary films. I thank you for all the filmmakers that you've helped, because a good documentary will take an issue that you may have heard something about and and want to know more. And when they get through, when you get through with the uh documentary, you really feel empowered. You feel like you've got both sides of the situation, and usually it'll be presented without any bias, only um good data that uh lets you know what the issue is all about. I find uh that Doc's uh well Michael Moore helped take it out of the closet and turn it into a financially rewarding um film. It was wonderful when he made that sale of ten million dollars. Everybody was shocked. But from then on, it opened the doors for all of us. So um great. So tell us how you came from software development into supporting filmmakers. There are parallels there, right?
SPEAKER_00There's there's there is quite a bit, and using Michael Moore as an example, that was that that's actually a great example because I think that helped ignite the fact that we're kind of in a golden age for documentaries right now. There's so many avenues for distribution. Um so so what drew us to supporting documentaries is we love documentaries. A great documentary just has a lot of impact. It's it's um it's a great way to spend an hour and a half and you learn a lot. Uh the parallels with software development and filmmaking, uh, maybe it's stretching it a little bit, but they're both project-oriented. They both require a lot of investment of time and money to to get um come up with a vision. It's a very collaborative effort, whether it's software or filmmaking. There's lots of people involved. Um, uh it the the the parallels, I guess, of of just executing the project uh seem to seem to overlap enough for me to relate to it. And then we have a lot of friends uh in the film industry, and we've had a lot of friends in the film industry over the years. So getting up to speed in terms of supporting filmmaking was pretty easy for us. We we we sort of had a step or two in that direction already.
SPEAKER_01This is great because it is a lengthy timeline. Um it takes an average of six years to make a documentary. I don't tell that to too many filmmakers because it can sound discouraging. But you do, you since you know uh after working with software development, you know the uh focus that's required, then that would be one of the things you would look for, I'm sure, in your applications, how dedicated and how committed they are to the film. That's a key factor in making a decision, right?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. We're really impressed uh with with w the the effort people put into the into their projects.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because many of these filmmakers uh uh have to have a day job to support themselves while they're making the film, so you know that every minute it goes into that film. From you can read it from your documentary proposal, and if and when they get the log line right, you know their heart is in it. That's so um I understand that you run the foundation with Lulu and your son Asher. So tell us what that's like for all three of you to work together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh there's um I mean it's it's it's pretty simple. We're w w all three of us were involved uh right from the beginning of of uh the foundation's first days. There's a nice generational mix uh bit of millennial and boomers. Um we we kind of uh we'll we'll talk about individual projects with a slightly different perspective, so it's kind of nice to get that perspective uh hashed out a little bit. And um it's it's actually been quite quite easy for for the three of us. We we we collaborate really well. It's it's a it's a small operation effectively.
SPEAKER_05Um we're usually very much on the same page as well, so it makes it very easy um and a friendly environment to work in. And even when we're selecting our grantees, it's pretty seamless. We're we agree, very rarely disagree, we don't have to fight for films, so it's it's quite a nice um environment for sure.
SPEAKER_01That sounds lovely. That's great. Um you like docs and you like supporting the fourth estate, I've heard, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um the the uh the reasoning behind that is is you know, for a successful functioning democracy, access to information is critical. And in our country, having this fourth estate probing and and and uncovering and explaining things is just a pillar of our democracy. And it seems like sometimes it's under threat. So so we want to be sure that it's we can do what we can to help support it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. That is very important to all of us. Uh so and let me ask, do you fund short documentaries from 40 minutes and down?
SPEAKER_05Um we don't. We only fund um feature-length documentaries at a minimum of 70 minutes. Um that's that's the way we stand currently. This may change in the future. Um, but we just find that short films don't adequate adequately fulfill the the um their vision for a film. And that's we we have we have some criteria that we stick to just so we we don't get too many applications for one, and um that's that's it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, great, great. So 70 minutes minimum. All right. Well, I was inspired by the ideals and values section on your website because it painted a detailed and vivid picture of a brighter world for all of us. So can you share the foundation's values and your vision for the future where films play uh an important role?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's it's uh it's hard to summarize it, I suppose, without it sounding like just platitudes. But you know, basically, you know, our our our vision is it and values are are progressive. We do believe uh strongly that education and critical thinking are fundamental to having a successful documentary. Um so on our website we do go into you know more specifics along that line. Um but you know, one of our phrases is to educate, inspire, and enrich. And um we we feel like film can do a really good job with that because the visual engagement is quite effective for reaching a large audience. Uh it seems like documentary films are really well liked by everyone, and um so so it's we we we sort of run with that vision and uh uh those ideals and values are kind of our North Star, so to speak, uh when we look at documentary projects.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's and um documentary film documentary films are you know educational entertainment. So it's it's really easy to capture someone and to teach them something without without having to put them through school or or to feel like they're learning anything.
SPEAKER_01Right. A good film and you will be shocked that the time that an hour has passed I I find many times because you can get so involved in the content.
SPEAKER_00Right. And a bad film does the opposite.
SPEAKER_01That's right. That's why um I heard Netflix in Can, uh I streamed it in and they were talking about the first seven minutes. You have to hook me in the first seven minutes or I'm gone. Uh and uh that's very important for documentaries too, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00It is for any film, I think. But yeah, absolutely for documentaries. You know, um uh you're you're really asking somebody to sit through something, and if it's not there in the first seven minutes, it's not gonna it's not gonna show up later.
SPEAKER_05And there's so much content these days that it's it's hard to for someone to commit if they can just you know browse around and find something better. So I think that's it.
SPEAKER_01And that's what they do, uh Lulu. They say if you they stay past seven minutes they're it's a winner. So you're right. They make early decisions. Well, um some I really want to go over some of the films that you supported. Um so uh you gave me a list and one of them was Bastards Road. And here here's what I found on the log line online. It says dedicated to taking veterans on long distance hikes to heal the wounds of war, or as we like to say, hike long distances, figure some stuff out. Sounds like a great film.
SPEAKER_00This one this one's definitely one of our favorites, partly um uh the this filmmaker this was an inexperienced filmmaker and uh was cobbling together funds to make the film. Um but the film was quite uh quite successful and and and addresses you know a lot of the PTSD issues. Um but for publicity it came out um around Memorial Day a couple years ago, and as a result, the film got some national um press and mentions on some of the some of the national TV shows.
SPEAKER_05It's all r it's also really screened a lot in um small towns and been available to veterans across the country, and I think that's one of the films that has had significant impact um on a pr on very personal levels for these for these men.
SPEAKER_00Um Right. A lot of veterans are really suffering today from something that happened 20 years ago, and they're still processing it. And a film like this, you know, kind of lets them know, A, that they're not alone, and B there's a journey forward.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh understanding how other people are handling the situation, that you're not alone, that in itself is a great benefit. I'm so happy that the veterans were able uh that they've made it available to them in small towns. This is wonderful. And you you s uh you funded a film called Healing from Hate. And Healing from Hate examines the root cause of hate groups activity through the bold work of those battling intolerance on the front lines, featuring Life After Hate, which is an organization founded by former skinheads and neo-Nazis to help others exit hate. What a great idea.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is this is kind of a gripping film because it's you know the the there's a lot of raw emotions and and and conversations that occur throughout.
SPEAKER_05But um but it's also a battle uh and and um for those involved to kind of get over this this mindset and we found you know they're part of this family amongst these groups, and it's it's very hard to break free of that. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yes, right. That's the same thing, gangs. Well, I did a film about the gangs in Mexico, how the people who are on the street or have no family find that is their family. You know, that's why they get into the gang. It substitutes for a family, and hate would be uh and people who hate would be a family of their own. So breaking away from the family is not easy. So thank you. Thank you for that. And losing sight of shore sounds like really ambitious. A team of four brave women set out to roll cross the Pacific Ocean from America to Australia. It one of the best docks I've ever seen was one of the reviews. Did they make it?
SPEAKER_06They made it.
SPEAKER_05Wow. Uh it w it was difficult. It was definitely a journey, and that's what the film uncovers, and and we we were on their journey with them. Um the way they actually filmed the film, you know, those cameras on this very small rowboat, and you're you're in with them, blood, sweat, and tears, and it's it's quite gripping, and it's it's an emotional film as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Netf Netflix picked this one up pretty quickly. Uh it's really well done.
SPEAKER_01Oh well, I'll look for it on Netflix because um that is a very brave film for those women. Uh how many uh do you know how long it took them?
SPEAKER_00Uh there were four women. One didn't quite make it and got replaced, I think, toward the end. Um, but I believe it you know it may have been six months or so, give or take. Um I can't remember. Of of course there's disasters along the way. They had to turn around at one one or two points, and you know, the the the the question of whether or not they could that they'll make it, you know, is was always ever present.
SPEAKER_05Um Yeah, it's six months at sea.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, turn to it's um I was it it it it's you know the characters are good, so you really relate to their difficulties and um you can imagine yourself being in this little rowboat for six months.
SPEAKER_01No, that's unbelievable. Wow, that sounds great. So, and then you funded a film called The Guardians. This is an investigative documentary that examines uh the systemic abuse of elderly people in Las Vegas, Nevada, exposing a cautionary tale where some of our society's most vulnerable citizens are robbed of their life savings. Wow. Tell us about that film.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this was this was also um you know quite quite important. The the focus, the action takes place in Las Vegas, but there's similar localities or jurisdictions that have a similar set of rules. What it boils down to is a guardian of an elderly person can more or less through the court system get that elderly person um classified as as not capable of taking care of their assets or themselves, and it becomes a way to enrich the the guardians can enrich themselves from basically the the the people they are protecting uh are are getting swindled, uh or or their bank accounts are getting drained. And the the film goes into some actual case histories. You'll see some see you see some footage in in the courtroom and whatnot. And uh it's also heart-wrenching because because some of the elderly people are going, uh, I feel fine, there's nothing wrong with me, and uh why are they taking away my stuff?
SPEAKER_05Some of them still have families as well, and they're they're th they have no control over this either. So it's it's quite heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_01Wow, but exposing it is what is so important. Thank you very much for funding that. Um and then we have Storm Lake, which is uh a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, Art Cullen, and his family uh unite to inform their Iowan farming community through their bi weekly newspaper, the Storm Lake Times. Come hell or pandemic. That must have been fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's he th the the the main character uh Um it he he's quite interesting actually. He's a little bit like a Mark Twain kind of kind of guy uh with a big mustache and uh long hair, but gray hair. But the you know the the I the the the storyline is the Ferm Lake newspaper is is just like a a couple thousand other local newspapers, they're really suffering from a decline in advertising and distribution with the internet taking over that that uh position. And what happens when these local newspapers fade away is you also lose local journalists, and there's more to local journalism than just reporting high school um football scores. It's you know, there's corruption at every level, but it's not doesn't all happen at Washington, D.C. So so having local journalism as a viable uh platform is is really important. And so this film focuses on on you know a lot of the issues around what's going on with these small newspapers. And then uh art in this um Art Cullen, who who's the publisher, actually when when this film came out, there was also a lot of national press. He was actually on TV quite a bit talking about the film and and the situation, and um it it definitely helps shine a light on on on what the problems are at the local level when it comes to journalism.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's so important that we keep the local papers going. I I understand. And and talking about local journalists, uh, yes, um to bring up problems in the city or the county or whatever's going on locally to uh inform us. You're right. We can't lose those local uh writers. Um so that's great.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, and unfortunately, they're they are disappearing rapidly. Um we've had a couple, we've had several submissions about this topic, in fact. Um not not that many have become films yet, but um you know one scenario is there's a private equity firm uh that's just basically buying them up, uh not not necessarily even small newspapers, actually good-sized newspapers like in New Orleans or or or other major cities. Um they're buying the company, the newspaper, they're they're basically firing two-thirds or more of the staff, which is mostly editorial, and they're milking it for you know whatever momentum is left over.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness, this is really not good. Nothing. Not good at all. No, I don't like that idea. Uh well, and then uh you funded the territory. Uh this provides an immense on immersive on-the-ground look at the tireless fight of the indigenous people against the encroaching deforestization brought on by farmers and illegal settlers in the Brazilian Amazon. So this would be one of your international films, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. And and this is a pretty large budget uh film, you know, so we're just one of the supporters. Uh but National Geographic uh is is is a primary producer of it, and it it's still playing today um on on the National Geographic Channel. Disney Plus. Um Disney Plus. And um but you know, within the story, um there is this mostly uncontacted tribe in in the Amazon area that um uh uh is is is the subject of of this territory. They're they're losing their their land to illegal logging effectively. Uh they're trying to fight back. The filmmakers couldn't spend a lot of time with them filming because this was during COVID and they didn't want to risk bringing the disease in there. So they effectively gave a couple cameras to a couple of the tribesmen. So a lot of the footage actually came from you know on the ground in real time, chasing down uh loggers and and or running from loggers.
SPEAKER_05And uh Yeah, there's a lot of action. It's it's it's quite fantastic the the editing that was put into that as well.
SPEAKER_00And and sadly, one of one of the tribesmen was killed actually by one of these illegal loggers in this in this pro in the during the filmmaking process. Um so it's you know it's a big it's a big topic. It's uh it's uh um the the film's gotten a lot of publicity. Uh we hope it'll have impact.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm sure of it. That uh that is marvelous. Some of I saw some of the pictures and the color, incredible color and uh good lighting. Uh it looked like professional photography, not giving it to indigenous people. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, no, I think I I I agree with you. Uh the that footage came out really well.
SPEAKER_01Well, the last one I wanted to cover is 26th to Life, the San Quentin Prison Marathon, has an unconventional route. It's 105 dizzying labs around a crowded prison yard. It's a documentary that tells the story of incarcerated men who are members of the 1,000 Mile Club, the prison's long-distance running club, and they train all year for this 26-mile race. That sounds really good.
SPEAKER_00It's quite an uplifting story. Um the character development is is really wonderful. You you you you are really bought into the uh the characters and and and and what's going on. Um and it has it has a pretty nice ending too because um um he you know one of the characters got to actually running uh the Boston Marathon.
SPEAKER_05He was released from prison and actually made it to the Boston Marathon and was able to compete um with a brilliant score if I remember correctly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05Um and this the entire film is is is really riveting and um the director in fact hired one of the prison uh prison inmates to do the soundtrack, um, which is wonderful. Um and this actually I I think it premiered last year at Doc NYC, um, which is one of four films that we had at Doc NYC that year. So that's that's quite wonderful for us.
SPEAKER_01What an achievement. Four films, oh my gosh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was Yeah, we were we were uh pleasantly surprised to see to see them all come together like that. Um so all the films that you mentioned, and of course all the film other films unmentioned, um we have a a section of our website called a viewing room, um, which has links to each of the films and with more information and where they can be viewed or rented uh online.
SPEAKER_05And that's that's updated regularly. So when films are released, you know, I'll add a section on there where when and how to see the film.
SPEAKER_01So definitely check it out. If if you have the time. Yes, well no, it's it these are very interesting films. They're all uh they all have their own special energy. And uh but this running like that, empowering people, making them focus on their body and healing themselves, uh, because when you are run I do run, uh and when you do, a lot of things come up. You have to it's amazing that comes up when you're out there all alone. You think that you're a peaceful no uh thing. You get rid of a lot of stuff inside you through running. So I'm sure that helped them emotionally and also to um to repent and straighten their lives out. Right.
SPEAKER_05Good for them. Similar to Bastards Road in that way, you know, he's on a walking journey, but it's it's it's it's it's parallel for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yes, right. Well, um, so let's um talk about the documentary film application process. Um how many applicants uh or applications do you receive and how many are funded and the typical funding amount? I was wondering if you could share that with us.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_05Um so we follow the core application uh format, which uh I think was implemented by the IDA, um and it's all documented online. So we're we're part of that group, um, and we feel by the by keeping this format, applicants can you know easily apply to multiple foundations or funds, and they have this one document that's ready with they may make some tweaks, but it it simplifies the process for them and for us as well. We feel that if everyone's applying in a similar format, then everyone's on a level playing field, and it allows us to compare the projects side by side very efficiently. Um so it's it's efficient and it's important both for the filmmakers and for us as a judging panel to have this format. Um as far as applications, we get about 600 a year. Um there's two open calls. Um one has a deadline May 15th, and the other one is November 15th. Um from those 600 applications, we typically will grant eight to ten films. Um so it's very competitive, and we have to filter through many applications, and unfortunately we have to reject many of those. Um that's pretty much it.
SPEAKER_01Um I just want to repeat May 15th and November 15th. Those are important dates, yes.
SPEAKER_05Right. But you know, um applicants should submit any time of the year. There those are just the deadlines. Um we do like to receive the submissions a little before the deadline, um, because they tend to all arrive on the very last week, which is a lot of pressure on us. That's very true.
SPEAKER_01I know that's filmmakers, but I've gotten used to that. Uh when I first started my grant, um I um was shocked because I I it was uh three days before the grant, and I think I had gotten maybe five applications, and so I was really despondent and so sad. And uh I had a film business at the time. So I was in Chicago thinking about what did I do wrong? And I you know, I want to give money away and all this, and nobody's interested in what's happening. And about two days after the grant, I got a phone call from my LA office saying, you won't believe this, but the post office actually delivered two baskets of mail. The post office never delivered to us. I was in Hollywood, forget about it. You had to go get your own mail. And that was a shocking situation. And I realized that they all wait to the last day. They do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that was that's similar to our our very first open call as well. We had, you know, met quite a few, several dozen applications at that point on the last day, and then the emails just started coming in. I was I was clicking refresh till midnight, and every time I clicked refresh, there was you know another five or ten. It was really quite interesting. Um but yeah, it's it's an avalanche. Uh I do want to mention um I I think you're asking um what stage of of uh filmmaking do we fund?
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um so so we um almost exclusively either do it uh films that are in advanced development, production, or post-production. Uh if it's early development, we're that's just doesn't seem to be what what we're geared toward because there's not enough information for us to go upon. Um the grant amounts, if it's if it's in development, advanced development range 10 to 15,000. Um but if they're if they're really into production or post-production, our typical grants 25,000.
SPEAKER_01Great. That is such a big help. Thank you so much for that. Um all right, so what advice can you give filmmakers applying for your fund? What are some of the qualities you look for in the films you select?
SPEAKER_00So um there's lots of little things, I suppose, that add up to the to big things. There's there's some some things that we'll see as red flags, there's some things that we can get our interest up, and then we, you know, are really digging into the project deeper. Um so in no particular order, though, I I do have a couple points to talk about. Um this is this is more me than than others here, but I I'm a stickler for the log line. And in our application, that's the first question they need to fill out is what's the log line of the project? And it's remarkable how many filmmakers really don't understand what a log line is. And we'll get sometimes two paragraphs of the log line. Uh, we'll get log lines that are in all taps, um, that are nonsensical. Um so it really reflects poorly on the filmmaker if if they don't understand the importance and how to construct a log line to capture that attention uh in in a quick one or two sentence phrase. That's that's that's a big red flag. Um and to any listeners who don't know what a log line is, just just Google it. There's plenty of information online describing how to what what what makes an effective log line.
SPEAKER_05Um And you don't often filmmakers, it seems, um are trying to tell the whole story in the log line. You know, there there's going to be room for that later on in the application. So they they shouldn't be scared that they're not giving us enough in the log line. It should just be a hook, and then later on they'll they're going to describe their project.
SPEAKER_00The next thing we run into a lot, um uh our phrase is topic fatigue. Uh we and um you you've probably experienced this. You know, topics topic ideas come in waves, and um there's certain topics o over time that just become really popular, and as a result, we'll get 20, 30 applications on the same topic because it's just in the air, it's in the atmosphere. People feel like it this is this needs to be addressed. Problem is when you have 20, 30, or 40 film projects on the same topic, the likelihood that they will be the one successful uh uh filmmaker is is pretty it's an uphill battle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Understood, right.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, so I'd be very thoughtful about what topic um you choose because it may be obvious and maybe, you know, there may be a need for that topic to be explored, but unless you have uh some special sauce that the other 30 or 40 filmmakers don't have, you're really making it difficult for yourself.
SPEAKER_05And there should really be a s a a story. There they should be showing us something, not just information about a topic. You know, it should be we should want to watch this story unravel. Right.
SPEAKER_00Uh the the next thing I'd I'd mention is is to uh to anyone listening is just uh really you use our website and understand our guidelines. It's it's um it it's surprising how many people simply email us and say, What you know, um are you accepting applications now? Or or when you know when is the open call uh deadline? Um or I've got a 20-minute film, can I can I apply? And so many of these questions are pretty clearly listed on the website. Um again, these are red flags or deal breakers, um, but that's that's one of those tips I would just pass on.
SPEAKER_06Good.
SPEAKER_00I I wrote down uh for this question actually, I wrote down avoid all caps in the title log line synopsis. It's really a bad form. It's it's kind of surprising we'll get you know um uh a full application that's just in all caps. It's like that's gonna make it better.
SPEAKER_05I always feel that um when they're in all caps, it sounds like they're screaming, and it's it's it's definitely that form.
SPEAKER_00And then I'll just kind of repeat a little bit of what Lulu was mentioning, which is you know, the the the project needs to be relatable. You know, someone could have a great topic or great cinematography or or or this or that. But um as a as a as a viewer, you need to be able to relate to the story, the the characters, and a lot of the submissions we get are let's say a personal story, perhaps an illness or an unsolved crime or some injustice, which is really important to the storyteller, the filmmaker. But if you're trying to reach an audience, and if it's not relatable, this personal story or or injustice, you're not going you're you're just not gonna capture our attention or or uh a viewer's attention. So um uh we talk about that uh in in various ways, but just the idea that it the film needs to be relatable is is often overlooked, surprisingly.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes, because uh people have so many choices these days that you really need to uh give them a good story, compelling story that you want to hear. What's gonna happen next? That's right. So uh are there any other factors uh that help you identify projects that you wish to support?
SPEAKER_00Well, since you asked. Um, you know, a another kind of uh high-level message that that's related to what we just talked about in terms of it being relatable, is a filmmaker has this 90-minute or 100-minute film, they're asking us as an audience to s to give up our time, to give up an hour and a half or two hours to watch the story. Like you just said, Carol, there's lots of op you know, there's lots of alternative ways to capture our attention. So if you're gonna ask us to spend an hour and a half with you listening to a story, the story needs to be entertaining or of high interest. And it can't just be here's the facts of some problem or injustice or or um something that could uh could also be related by reading or understood by reading a five-minute article of it you know in a in a magazine. Uh if you're gonna make if you're gonna ask us to sit through a full-length film, it there has to be a reason we want to sit through that. So it it you know, making it entertaining is is surprisingly overlooked. Um I think people are often really wrapped up in their story that they feel like they need to tell.
SPEAKER_05The issue.
SPEAKER_00The issue. And sure that gets the facts out there, but as you said, if if we're not interested after seven minutes, you know, we're off to the next thing. Which used to be ten minutes. Right. But I guess this is um we're all in a hurry these days.
SPEAKER_01Um a good story with strong characters, right? You're looking for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think I I uh somebody used the phrase forward motion or something, yeah. But the uh the idea that there's rising stakes or recent, you know, what happens next, you're you're keenly interested in how it gets resolved. Uh the other things we're looking for is impact. Um you know, a lot of times the the topic is is small, it's legitimate, but uh whether or not an entire film is going to be watched for some small topic that has very little impact, um it's gonna be difficult for us to get behind. Um and kind of along with that is is who's the audience. So so we've actually had film submissions where they describe their audience and it's it's basically a really small group of niche uh high school students or something. Uh yeah, something that most people really don't care about, but but but um but they believe that there's that that audience will justify them spending six years and lots of money creating this film. Um so you y I would just be aware of of who the potential audience might be and whether it's it's worth the effort in terms of creating the film.
SPEAKER_05And the potential impact that might have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then we also look very carefully at their distribution strategy. Um uh naturally everyone wants their film on Netflix or Hulu or something like that. Um we we would love to see that for all of our films, um national distribution, national platform. Not all of them get there, of course. Um, but we're looking for that possibility that there'll be some wide distribution there.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and where of where do they see the film going? This you really have to fight to get that information. It's almost as if they haven't got that far. And it's like starting your own business and not knowing what your goals are, you know.
SPEAKER_00That's ex that's exactly right. Yeah, that's a good good analogy.
SPEAKER_01So thank you very much, because I do teach filmmaking, and I wrote up a an outline for distribution and marketing, and it has these four things in it, and uh who's your audience, and don't tell me 18 or 36. No, I really want to know who they are. A composite character. Anyway, uh you're so right. This is these are critical things for filmmakers to think of early on, because maybe it's just too small for the time and and money that's involved. You're right. There's not a big enough audience. Or you're not gonna have enough impact, and really, uh filmmakers, uh particularly documentary filmmakers seldom r get paid for the full amount of time they put in their films, as you know, I'm sure. Right? So make sure that you've got them.
SPEAKER_00What were the four things that you mentioned in your distribution um?
SPEAKER_01Oh well, I want uh I want to know what you're doing with your social media. How are you marketing the film down? Where where is your audience? Not only who, but where? Can you find them online? Where do they hang out and do you know who they are? Um I requ and I get asked them to go look at some of your or interview people that you have who are following you and find out uh ten questions had I created for them to find out who they are, where they hang out online, where they get their news, so you get an understanding of the audience and then you know how to reach them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's excellent.
SPEAKER_01So it's all an education process. I'm still I'm still being educated every day. So uh that's why I love this business. It's ever changing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00It is. That's right. Distribution is changing and word of mouth is changing, social media. Yeah, there's a lot.
SPEAKER_01So um now is funding available to international filmmakers, right?
SPEAKER_00It is, and we we have funded several uh films that are based overseas. Um we we're looking for English subtitles if it's if if if it's not an English language film. Um and the biggest hiccup we run into is the their unfamiliarity with fiscal sponsorship. And um, you know, maybe your listeners today have a good understanding of that. Um otherwise we could go we or you, Carol, could go into that.
SPEAKER_01Well, yes, I'd love to hear more.
SPEAKER_00Uh so as I said, you know, we'll we'll get uh inquiries from, you know, let's say Great Britain, and and there's no concept of of uh fiscal sponsorship. As a foundation, we can only distribute funds to 501c3 um public charities. Public, yeah, charities.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And um it's unlikely that um a filmmaker based in Britain is going to either have a charity or even understand the rules in the US.
SPEAKER_05Even in the US that's unlikely. I find that most of the films that we fund uh have a fiscal sponsor. In fact, the most serious filmmakers already have a fiscal sponsor when they apply and they list that in their application, it just makes everything a little easier. Um and basically a fiscal sponsor is acts um as a bridge between our foundation and the filmmaker, and that's just so that um they can receive tax-deductible funding. And it's pretty easy as far as I understand to set up a fiscal sponsor. Um, I know that from the Heart Production is a fiscal sponsor as well. And I think we send them the money, the fiscal sponsor, and they transfer that money to the filmmaker, um, less uh a small fee. I think it's any anywhere from three to ten percent. And it that mostly I think covers their overhead. And I do think all of this is explained very well on your website. So if anyone is listening and needs to know more information, that would be a place to to go.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, it's really important because when people apply for grants, they have to apply under our name. So many many times we're the ones that signed the contracts, and then it is our job to see the filmmaker fulfills the contract. So it's uh it's a wonderful way to know that the money you're giving will be used properly, and uh and any re uh any future information you've asked for uh w will be received uh in a timely basis. Uh so yes, a fiscal sponsor uh is uh has a big responsibility uh but we take it very seriously about educating people on and I start with log line you because I am totally in agreement. Give me a good log line and I'm hooked. Okay. Oh I thank you so much. There's things I didn't get to ask. One thing I can't go without knowing is do your teachers know that you named the Miller Packens Film Fund after them.
SPEAKER_00One of them had passed away a c a uh quite a while ago. The other one actually um Mrs. Packin uh lived to the age of 106 and just passed away this. Yeah. And and so y yes, she uh we talked on the phone and I would send her um updates as to what films we were funding. And um yeah, I mean I never I never thought I'd be speaking to her, you know, decades later, but um it it was it was quite nice.
SPEAKER_01What a wonderful thing you did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Talk about impact. Both of those teachers had outsized impact. Uh I don't know you know, it's how how common it is in this day and age, but they really prepared us for what's ahead in terms of critical thinking and and and knowledge. And you know, the the the two matched up well with each other because one was very idealistic and and and we learned from that, but the other one was very realistic and we also learned from that. And uh it was quite great.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh tell us, do you have uh any plans for the near future? Uh any initiatives, new initiatives on the horizon.
SPEAKER_00Um so to begin with, well, it it's gonna be more of the same. We're we're we're not evolving too rapidly, but what we we do we do kind of keep our eye out for special opportunities, let's say. And um one thing we've done is we've we've partnered with an investigative journalism um uh newsroom called Center for for Investigative Reporting, and um they have a radio show called Reveal that's on a lot of public stations. But they're also now getting involved with some films, documentary films, uh which are certainly investigative journalism focused. And uh some of those projects we've stepped up and actually uh provided extra funding to get it off the ground or to get it further along. And there's a couple other um newsrooms that we're talking to that we might get them to do some things in the visual world as well.
SPEAKER_01Oh wonderful. Yeah, newsrooms to do something in the visual field. Oh yes. I uh because I remember the days when the the news shot on 16mm. I had a film company and they would come in and buy the Rostock, you know, and uh they were called stringers. They were out there um chasing the cops radios to go to all of the events and things that happened in the city and be there, film ed, report, develop the film, get it on the six o'clock news. And that was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, it's it's challenging for for you know, ProPublica is one of our favorite uh supported newsrooms, and when they do a a uh feature, you know, it's gonna be you know, it might be it might it's gonna be s many, many pages, thousands of words. And unfortunately in this day and age, a lot of people don't have time for that. So um we're like yeah, we're kind of trying to promote the idea of of more visual information.
SPEAKER_01Good. That's a great idea. It it will have a wonderful audience. Well, uh thank you both for your kindness. Uh, first of all, in creating and giving all these wonderful grants, and for your time today. We really thank you for sharing this information.
SPEAKER_00It's our pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_04And I I do want to ask, may I just ask a quick question real quick that I've been wondering about, and that is this um, Hugh and Lulu, are there any films that you feel are lacking, that there's not enough out there of that you would like to see more filmmakers who are interested in making those films with those topics that you would like to be a part of?
SPEAKER_00So that's a really good question. It's something that we've discussed a lot as well. Um the answer is yes, but I can't tell you what what what those ideas are currently because my mind's going blank. But yeah, there are some. And um I I I'm not sure how to to promote those ideas.
SPEAKER_04Well, maybe that'll be the next interview we do with you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I don't have I don't have the answer on the top of my head, but but there are some.
SPEAKER_01Um Well, you're open. This is what's so wonderful. When going through the list of films, we can see what a broad range uh of films that you're interested in. And the one thing that ties them together is the information is empowering. Every film you've done would empower the viewer.
SPEAKER_00Um thank you. Which is the whole healthcare industry. Um, you know, I I was in France last month, I had to get a blood test. I don't have health insurance there. I want it was just walk-in. $17 later, I had my blood test and results in two hours. And that's so different than here. I would love to see some more uh investigation as to why things are so expensive here in the healthcare industry.
SPEAKER_01Well said, yes. Yes, totally agree. Well, thank you both. We sincerely appreciate the information, and good luck with your film funding.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you both so much.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Take good care.
SPEAKER_04Be well excited. Bye now.
unknownBye.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Now, in its second edition, Carol Dean's popular book, The Art of Film Funding, has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer. How to make an ask for money. Create your story structure and your trailer, legal advice, fair use, successful crowdfunding, how to ask for music rights, and what insurance you can't shoot without. Available on Amazon under Caroline and at FromTheHeartproductions.com. I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra. David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story, please contact him at Davidrakeland.com. That's david R-A-I-K-L-E-N.com. And Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at FromTheHeartproductions.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films, everyone.
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