How to interview for a successful funding trailer with filmmaker Michael Torres

How to interview for a successful funding trailer with film editor/director/producer Michael Torres. For more info about Carole Dean and From the Heart Productions please visit FromtheHeartProductions.com.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Love South Radio.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi, and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Filmmaker, editor, teacher, and lifelong student Michael Torres combined his love of history and storytelling with his passion for metaphysical studies to create art that uplifts, inspires, and unites. He's the founder and director of the Museum of Puerto History, an online cultural center and pop-up museum experience. His first installation, The Gods of Puerto Rico, is a 12-part documentary series on Afro-Puerto Rican revolutionary albizu compost and his quest for freedom. Michael has created original content for Fox Sports, Spotify Studios, the NFL Network, ESPN, and YouTube Originals. When he's not in production, Michael is a teacher of metaphysical studies and meditation at the Agape International Spiritual Center in Los Angeles. And Michael, I understand you have been a friend of Carol Dean for many years, and you even took her intentional filmmaking class, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

I have, yes. And and thank you, Claire. And a lot of the principles that we learn in the intentional filmmaking class, I think you can really uh apply to trailer editing and and crafting that first uh that first demo of your project.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Indeed. Yes. I've heard this from a lot of filmmakers too, as well. Many people have have said just that same sentiment. So you are a brilliant filmmaker, Michael. And you have very important historical documentary project. You're also uh paying the bills with with your talent for editing trailers as well, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Absolutely. And and you know that that's the uh I think the big challenge is learning how to uh to wear multiple hats to be able to move your projects and your visions forward while still be able to, you know, manage your responsibilities. And so I'm grateful that I didn't have to leave my world of filmmaking to uh to pay the bills. So yeah, and and I I just adore editing too, so it's great.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Well, and and I know you've been working on your film, this documentary that I just mentioned for many years, and your dedication to the filmmaking process started many years ago as well. How did you how did you f found this story? I mean, what what brought you to even want to begin to create this story, Michael?

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Well, that's uh um it's been a long journey. And you know, for me, it actually started as a child. Um I am one of um millions of Puerto Ricans that grew up in the United States. There are actually more Puerto Ricans living in the United States than on the island itself. And so I grew up uh what's called a New Eurecan and very much separated from my history. And so for me, um I I I remember there's instance when I was a kid, they used to have the Puerto Rican Day Parade in New York every June, and uh I w uh leading up to the parade, people would be selling you'd see uh flags for sale everywhere and khaki t-shirts that read 100% Puerto Rican, and I had to have one. So I got myself a t-shirt that said 100% Puerto Rican in big bold letters, and when I showed it to my mom, she was like, Well, yeah, but you're not Puerto Rican, you're an American. And that really rattled me a little bit. I didn't realize it at the time, but it kind of sparked a bit of an identity crisis. And so I, you know, yes, I I chanted USA, USA when I watched the Olympics and and and loved and am proud to be an American, but I felt Puerto Rican. I grew up in the South Bronx and it's a uniquely Puerto Rican community. It's a place where, you know, you don't necessarily my grandmother never had to learn English or assimilate into American culture because Puerto Rican culture was alive and thriving in our neighborhood. And so I very much felt Puerto Rican. And so for me, it just kind of sparked this this desire to learn more about my history and almost prove myself to be a good Puerto Rican. And so I discovered this story about Albizo Campos. And when I discover his story, I start to understand the relationship between the United States, between Puerto Rico, and and and realize that it's through this story I can understand my place in America. I can it gives me a a greater context to understand uh what it is to be a Puerto Rican in the United States and why I'm having some of the experiences I was having.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yes. And you know, uh I think a lot of people can relate to what you just said, no matter what uh background or or um you know, ancestry they have as well. It's just it it all translates to the same thing, which is we are many things. We are many people. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Oh no, I was just gonna add on to that. It is i I I really do think the story is universal because I I what what it gets to the heart of is unpacking the stories that we tell ourselves in our youth. And where did we get these beliefs? Why do we believe the things we believe? And so I think there's really real value in examining, you know, not just our own personal history, but our cultural history as well, can can kind of clue us in to some of the experience we're having in the in the present day.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Absolutely. Well, since you became committed to this story, which um you know you have a lot of passion in it, which that also helps the story to carry very well, um, you've expanded your filmmaking talents from uh being a filmmaker to a writer, a producer, and now you're working as a film editor. So tell us about that.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Uh film editing is uh I kind of stumbled stumbled into it. So I got it, my filmmaking journey began kind of on the back roads. Uh so while I was in college, I wasn't really clear um what I wanted to do in life. And uh and so I uh I was doing some acting in New York for a while and um actually found myself wanting to uh to create my own content so that I can act in my own shorts because I didn't have an outlet to demonstrate my skill. And so I was like, oh well I'll shoot my own films and I'll act in my own movies. And in the process, I started taking workshops, and I ended up actually ended up in uh my first filmmaking workshop was a place called Bronx Net. It was a public access television station in the Bronx at Lehman College. And um I got behind the camera and I never went back. I fell in love uh as soon as I I picked up a camera for the first time and and and and got to edit for the first time. And so my um one of my first short films um I did right around 2000, and this was right when Final Cut Pro had come out. I mean, weeks before I started uh editing this film, uh Third World Newsreel, which was another uh nonprofit uh uh filmmaking program uh in New York City, I was taking a a course there and they gave me access to a Final Cut Pro uh setup. Nobody knew how to use it. They just gave me the manual and said good luck. And uh and and here I am, you know, 20 plus years later. Uh I've I've never stopped cutting. And and so I really uh um I really love crafting and and really the experiment the experimentation process you get to do in in editing is so fulfilling, you know, just really just trying to to to mess things up and put them back together and and see what, you know, just throw things at the wall and see what sticks. It's really a fun, uh, a really fun process for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Thank you, Mark. Well Carol has joined us. Go ahead, Phil.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

You know, um Peter Falk and Cassavetes had screened um a film that they had made, and so when they left the screening room, Cassavetes asked Falk, Did you like it? And he said, That's incredible. And he said, Well, I'm glad you said that because you'll never see it again. I'm going back tomorrow and re-edit. And uh and that's where he became so great because he says, When you think you've got something really great, tear it apart, do it again, you can do better. And that was his motto. So I understand it's really fun, isn't it, to edit?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Oh, I I I love it, Carol. I mean, there's it's wonderful because you could put, you know, two editors or or two two groups of filmmakers in a room together, and i they'll they'll come up with something completely different with the same material. It it's it's beautiful because you're you're applying your own filter, your own way of you know, the way you see life, the way you you you know, your experience is a piece of you goes into that edit. And and so it's a really vulnerable process, and you do get to just, you know, this might be working, but what if I tried it this way? And I think that's the key question in in the editing process is what if? Or does this work or can this work? And you constantly want to try new things and not you know not fall into a uh a template, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Right. Well, I know you've been working hard on the uh Pedro Abuso Campos documentary. I I think your dedication to filmmaking is incredible because you have expanded that film to such uh a large extent that uh you really have the energy of the country, the flavor of the country, the food, the music, all of that is part of your documentary, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Absolutely. And and so again, you know, going back to to that idea of you know you're you're you're representing your your the way you view the world. So I got to um you know, as a as a New Yorekan, I didn't go to Puerto Rico for the first time until I was in my thirties. And so I got to to to come to the island with fresh eyes. And and and and so it was just really uh beautiful to to experience the culture fresh uh from that perspective and to try to articulate it from a New Eurecan's perspective. Like what is, you know, how does how did I what was my experience of the island as as an outsider, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Right, right. So now here's the thing with filmmakers is that uh documentarians need a uh application and they have to have a trailer. Because we in our film grant, you know, I see that you can't win if you don't get a film grant uh w uh without a trailer. You've got to have something to show us that you know how to make a film. And it can only be two minutes, but it has to be a visual statement that has three acts and makes us want more, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Absolutely. And it it could it seems like such a catch-22, right? You have to you have to show the film so that someone gives you permission to make the film. Um but but I really do think it's an opportunity and and to to conduct experiments with your film to find out what the visual language is, to find out what's working, what's not working. I think you can get really far with your film in that trailer editing phase because you'll you'll learn a lot about yourself and your material in that process.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Right. So let's talk about the different types of trailers. Let's start with that. I know there is a sizzle, and then there is the funding trailer. So what else is there and what do you always recommend?

SPEAKER_03 12:49

Well, I always say, you know, it's it's interesting. I think even so so a sizzle can be anything from 30 seconds to let's say two minutes. Uh you want it fast paced, but j like you like you said, you want it to have a three-act structure, or at the very least, clearly communicate an idea. I think uh a a sizzle should be the vibe of your film or the spirit of your film, is really what you're trying to articulate. What's this feel like? Um and and even uh and then a a uh a funding reel might be something like like the uh NEH will ask for 15 minutes of of your film. And so what that is is is really an exploration of how you're gonna tell the story. What is it uh what are the the elements of the story? Taking a scene in in a complete scene and and laying it out from you know from from from A to Z and stringing together sequences. But even in a funding, even in a funding trailer, I want the I want that element of a reel right up front. I and whether it's uh if it's a sizzle reel or it's a funding trailer, in that first 30 seconds or so, I really want whoever's watching this to know what this is about, why we're making this, um, you know, who the cac who the main characters are and what it is we're trying to convey. And then we can, you know, we we can uh get moody with it, but I want to answer those questions right up front. So whether it's uh you know a 30-second sizzle, a uh a two-minute trailer or a 15-minute demo, um we want to kind of excite the the viewer and and then also um leave them in a place where they want more. Uh they they they we want to tease them, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yes, so uh let me get this, I want to make sure we get this very clear. So we want to know what the film is about, we want to meet the main characters and and create the essence of the film in the trailer. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 14:53

And what the conflict is. What what do they want and why can't they get it? What's the problem? What are they gonna do about that? And and this doesn't apply, obviously, this is wouldn't you know wouldn't apply to every documentary. There's so many different uh uh forms. But in in I work in historical documentary or or or character-driven uh work, and and so those are the questions I'm trying to check off. Uh, you know, as I'm as I'm outlining a trailer, and and that's something I think really important for for filmmakers to consider. You know, before you even um sit down to to to edit, I I I would go as far as you possibly can on paper and and really you know try to articulate that vision on paper. Yeah, I I love uh Stephen Pressfield's uh uh in in his book The War of Art um talks about this idea of you know getting it on a on a single uh le you know sheet of legal pad, the the A, B, and C of your of your trailer. And when you can do that, I think um you your your funder will come along for the ride.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Okay. So give us some examples. That sounds wonderful, the A, B, C of the trailer.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Well, like you like you said, Carol, it's the it's the the the the the the opening, the the middle, and the end, the you know, act one, act two, act three, so that there's a movement. There's there's you know, if if I'm introducing a character, there's a change in that character. They're different from where I met them by the end of that trailer or or funding reel. Um so it it's it's really just uh demonstrating you can tell a story. You could tell a compelling story and and uh and have a uh a good sense of how you're gonna tell that story.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Well, uh as a grantor and watching trailers, I look for the first five to ten seconds. I find it very interesting how you start your trailer. And one of the things I don't like is when you have to when I get the title and the production company and sometimes they'll take up ten, twenty seconds, uh, with who the producer and the director and all these things are. And I don't think that you really need that in a trailer. I think you need the story.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Oh yeah, I I wanna I I want to splash a cold water as soon as I step in. Yeah, I I mean you you know, y yeah, you can uh uh you don't want to uh bog down the opening with your five second animated logo and and and you know a twenty-second moody drone or anything like that because I don't know what I'm watching and and and so you you know, y that that interest it it's it's so delicate. I I want to engage with the viewer as soon as humanly possible. So if I have an inciting line or an image or a scene or a moment that drops me into what this film is about, what the essence and the vibe is, then that's where I I really want to lead off with.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

That is r uh great. That's exactly how it should be. Because people have to realize that uh if you're applying for grants, they're going to be watching one after another after another. It's just how they do it. They get the judges together and and uh so i you have to stand out over the rest. And the faster you tell me the story, the more you wake me up and I think, wow, this is a great film. Uh and that's how it works. And then you say to the other judges, What uh you've got to see this trailer, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

So Yeah, and then if you are going to individuals, uh say a you know, a family foundation, well um they have to get the story, the essence of the story. And if possible, how this benefits humanity for a documentary are uh what is the uh what is the benefit of the film? E features have benefits, everything has a benefit. So can you do you look for that to put it in the trailer?

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Oh a hundred percent. I I mean that I think that's the first thing when when I talk to a filmmaker, that's what I want to find out. What why why is why is it that they need to make this film? And I emphasize the word need. It's the the the story that's asking to be told. Why do you need, are you the person to make this film and and and what is it that you're bringing to it of yourself? What what what part of you is going into this that's going to resonate with others? Um I really I I and again going back to I I I mentioned this in the in the open, but I uh there's so much value in the intentional filmmaking class that you uh that you offer in just really identifying your sticky story. I can't tell you how valuable that's been in talking to other uh talking to other filmmakers, you know, and and prepping, you know, getting ready to to edit is you know, can you can you can you get this down in one line? And if you can, we're probably on our way to a good trailer. If you could clearly explain your vision and your passion, uh we're we're we're we're in good shape.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Oh yes, thank you for that. I love this the sticky story. I think that book uh Made to Stick by Dan and Cheap Chip Heath is brilliant. Uh but I've tried to take that and put it into the the things that are most important is something emotional, something concrete, uh, something credible, and something shocking, and wrap that into a story. And the reason is because almost everyone you're going to ask for money has a significant other, mother, brother, someone they want to talk to about it. Usually, it's seldom you find the the grant maker that'll sit there and write the check. They want to talk to their family or friends, and so they have to then carry your film and pitch it to someone else. And so by making sure they get the essence of the film in your pitch or in your trailer, that's where you close them, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:06

And that's about the attention span you're gonna get from someone too, right? You may have this brilliant treatment that lays out every beat of the story, but if I can't if I can't kick it to you in an elevator and get you to understand it, or if I can't get you to wa uh understand it in two minutes, then I've lost you. That's it. That that you know, we're we're gonna have to look for someone else for funding. Uh so i I mean it's just so important to uh to to whittle this down to to uh as concise as we can.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Right. Well, here's the big problem. I I sometimes hear filmmakers say, Oh, I'm excited because I'm going today, I'm going to take some interviews, and I hope I get what I need for my trailer. Well, this is really not the way to plan an interview. You have to be really clear about your questions going in. to get to elicit the right answers, right? How I really want you to try to explain to people where the trailer is born. It it starts before you ever take any interviews or before you do anything. It's what is it you want to tell us and how can you get that information.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Exactly. And and I I I'm I'm so happy you're you're bringing this up. Um i it's first if you're going out and hoping you you capture what you need for your trailer then then you haven't articulated a vision for yourself to to go and film, right? You're you're you you need to be intentional about the the stories you want to tell and you're going to get surprises and you're going to get things to take you somewhere else. But the clearer you are about what you want and need from an interview the better that interview is is going to go. But you know something else I I want to caution is that of and and I've made this mistake. So I I'm speaking from experience with this one with my own film is you know good interviews don't make good trailers. Good stories make good trailers. And so you know you might have this this kick ass interview and and the person is brilliant but what they're doing is explaining a story and what you want is people to tell stories and and and and use their interviews to craft a a a story to craft a a piece of information. And so I'm as you you know it's aside from I I think there's a lot of prep that goes into preparing to film something for a trailer or do those init you know those initial interviews. I'd say research, research, research. If you know who you're gonna um when you once you know who you're gonna interview, maybe they've been interviewed before maybe they've been on television, maybe they have a blog post, read an article that they've written, but understand how they communicate and what their point of view is and something else I would I would highly recommend is pre-interviews. And now I I love the world of Zoom and and what that's m opened up for us because we could do these pre-interviews on Zoom and I've used Zoom interviews and trailers or bytes from Zoom interviews you know in trailers. So that's something you know you may not want that for your finished piece but but to help you you know get these ideas down I think that's that's really important. And then it's taking that and uh you know kind of uh really being clear about what it is before you you sit down to talk to someone because then you can have a real conversation and then you're not you know you you can you can genuinely and sincerely be an interested listener and and and and and confidently know what that person you know uh can give you yes and what you have to listen for is the sound bite you need to make the film go forward.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

So I've seen it where people had to ask the same question two or three different ways to get that to get the answer, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:06

Absolutely. And I mean if you uh something I I find and some people will will probably not like this, but I I would, you know, I I tend to ask leading questions. I I'll pepper in a piece of the answer in in in my question and and then I'll also be very clear with the person I'm interviewing that I need them to mirror back to me the question that I ask in the c in the question. So for example if I'm gonna ask you what's your favorite color I can't do much as an editor if with the with if you just say purple. That doesn't, you know, but my favorite color is purple just conveyed a piece of information. And so it's being clear about the answer you want and then figuring out ways to ask questions to to get it. If you watch 60 Minutes they they lead their interviewees all the time they're they're you know it's almost like they're they're feeding them almost and in this case I mean you're you're trying to you're trying to paint a picture with their words and and so it it's uh um it it's it it's challenging and it could be fun but I wouldn't you know I if you don't get the answer you want yes circle back around. Maybe not write uh maybe not the next question but kind of just make a mark for yourself and know you're going to circle back to that question at the end of the interview.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Right. Okay well when you speak about Zoom I think that is wonderful. I see Zoom as a great benefit for low budget docs. I'm really into the new short form it's not a new form but I mean short docs are getting hot people are realizing I can tell this story in 30 minutes 25 minutes and I've got a 30 minute international piece and I can get it on PBS or I can do this in 60 minutes. It seems the these are two very good links and so if you use Zoom and get a good interview of course you can use that or use it to edit for your trailer I believe the quality is good enough. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 27:09

I think a hundred percent I I think we're in a time where uh our our our uh uh our willingness to to to engage with social media you know we don't need uh uh to shoot an interview in red necessarily there's a tolerance for for low resolution video and I think Carol I I and and and I I I I really do think there's an intimacy that you get on a zoom call that you don't get in a standard sit-down interview. There there's a there there's a a a a quality a uh of um I guess intimacy is the word I keep coming back to but you know you've been on a zoom call you've been on the other side of that call. It's not foreign to someone so I think you get them to be a little more comfortable uh in a zoom environment than you would in a you know in a three light setup and and a small crew uh you know under a hot light.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Exactly because now they're really nervous when you hit the lights and you're testing the sound and the camera comes on it's like oh my gosh because these people have may have never been on a professional set or camera before. So you're right they are more relaxed on Zoom. They're in their home their traumas, whatever they're comfortable and you get a very up close and personal conversation. You're right. And and m Michael just think about the money that you're saving by not flying taking your cinematographer taking your sound guy uh you don't have the hotel all of that expense is gone and you can make a film so much faster this way.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Absolutely absolutely and I mean and then you can always go back and refil that interview. You know you could always and and and now though knowing exactly what you're gonna get or or having a better sense of what the the the subject can deliver. But I I think it's it's a great resource and something we should use more uh and not shy away from I I think it's I I think this is I I think this is gonna be a a consistent uh uh feature in documentary going forward i is is lower quality uh zoom video camera phone footage and things of that nature exactly because it's always the chicken or the egg you don't know how can I get the fifteen thousand to m go out take interviews make my trailer uh where don't where does that come from because I can't start raising money without it well if you have uh if you are allowed or allow yourself to use these uh inexpensive ways to get the information on camera then you're you're giving us two things one that you are very creative you can take a good zoom uh interview and make it work and that you can create a trailer for a minimum amount of uh money and use that to raise the money for your film right absolutely we had a uh uh I did a funding reel for a documentary on um on the Black Fives which was uh the Negro League of basketball before the MBA there was an an entire professional sports league for about you know pr pr forty years before the NBA but one one of the things we didn't have is a a a really key interview that we needed and so we went ahead and and did it on Zoom and it worked out perfectly it it really uh it really helped us out and it's something that I've I've gone back to a few times since then.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Well let's help uh people understand what did they have to do to get ready uh to make a trailer. So when people come to you and ask uh you about doing their trailers do you uh give them uh tell them what to give you because are you looking for an outline of the film so you know what the story is or uh where does it begin?

SPEAKER_03 31:18

Yeah I want to know everything I I possibly can about the film but even more so why they're interested in making the film. I I really want to understand um why it's important to them and what the feeling they're trying to communicate. How do you want the viewer to feel after about your subject after they watch this trailer. So I'm really I I think my focus is always on on on the quality the the the feeling tone um that we're trying to to communicate.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Alright so you ask them to give you as much material that you can read and see and talk about well um what the next thing is uh do you do you take people on when they are before they go shoot their trailer? I mean when c people are ready to go shoot their trailer uh and they call you to hire you, do you give them some guidance on how to get ready for the trailer? Is that what happens?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

You know I've never been asked to to do that but it's something I I'm more than willing to do. I I I I'm happy to to to kind of set people up because I want to make sure you know you're getting the most out of my time and so I want to set you up so that you can do as much of the you know the heavy lifting as possible before before you pass it off to me. Because I'm expensive and so you want to make sure you you've you you've checked a lot of boxes before you get into the editing process. And something else I'd say Carol is is now you know just like with Zoom it it's e editing is very accessible and I think um we don't have to consider ourselves professional editors to take our content and start playing with it in an editing space. And so you can get a copy of Premiere you can get a copy of Final Cut uh Da Vinci Resolve is a free program and and all of these things you can learn in a day. Eight hours of hanging out on YouTube for a day and you'll be a proficient enough editor to to assemble you know take take an interview apart and and and break out bytes and and things of that nature just to play with it and begin seeing how how uh how it strings together. But I'd say even before that you want to take your interviews and get those transcribed and and I that's a really important tool uh resource for me as I I I lean on my transcripts and I try to cut on paper as much as I can before I start cutting uh uh in the program. Because I only get to see this uh uh a couple of times with fresh eyes. I only get to experience it a few times. And so I want to take it as far as I possibly can on paper and work with the uh the producer or director that I'm working with to really get a tight outline knowing that once we start editing that outline may go out the window and it may you know we might fall down the rabbit hole and it leads to somewhere else but we've set an intention and we're moving towards that intention and now that we've you now that we're on that journey we can allow it to you know take us where we want to go but first we've set a destination.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Great that makes sense now tell us I want you to give us your website and how people can reach you because I want people to see the trailer that you made for Albizo. It is so well done.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Oh thank you Carol um the uh the trailer for Albizo you could see uh actually the um all of my work you could see at mtorresproductions.com Ms and Michael Torres T-O-R-R-E-S productions dot com and you can see all of my uh postproduction work there and some of my shorts and um for the Albizo project you can visit whoisalbizo.com albizoal b-i-z-u who is albizo uh com and you can see the trailer and uh and learn more about the program there.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Great and I want to say that filmmakers seem to love Rev, R E V dot com their automatic transcriptions are like 25 cents a minute and they're very good. So uh consider that. Give it a try.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Absolutely I use Rev for almost everything I work on. It's a great resource. You can take your interview you upload it and minutes later you have a transcription. One thing I I will uh just remind listeners is please please please get time code uh on your uh transcriptions it it really helps speed up the process when I know I'm going to you know 10 minutes and 13 seconds is where I'm going to find that byte versus listening through the interview to find it.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Right. Okay. Well now here's the big question how do you as an editor how do you choose what to put in a trailer? I mean the one you did on uh Big Sue is it has a tiny bit of history explains who the man is um so do you do you look for uh what? There's so much to go to go through to decide. Do you have a list that you choose that you want to cover?

SPEAKER_03 36:29

That that's a that's a great question right I I think I I I I I look for the most interesting things that I have right so so the the scenes that already work the the things that the low-hanging fruit what's working what do I know if I match this piece of of B roll with this interview it it it works and it conveys it conveys a message. So I'm I'm kind of not working linear necessarily I'm not you know starting at the beginning and ending at the end. I'm kind of taking everything I have that I know works, building that and then starting to find ways to connect them and one of the the I think one of the best uh lessons I ever got was I worked with this great uh I had a great mentor named Tom Jones uh over at the Halo group and he we would watch interviews together um you know in pre in preparing for an edit and and he would take notes as as we were watching but what he would always do is identify what he called the button that's the that that's that's the ending right there. And and so we'd clip that off. Right at the beginning we kind of had a sense what the last line was going to be what the last idea was going to be and so that we can build towards that. So I I personally I like to to to be clear about where I'm gonna land this plane um but before I take off. And and so if I can get that I think we're in good shape because now I can kind of build an arc. I I could you know work my way to there I could I could pepper in some things that will that will pay off at the end of the trailer.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Great. I love that and I think that uh sometimes I'll see trailers and the the beginning is in the middle. All right you know what I'm saying? Yes that there some woman says well we need this because it does A B C and it and I've already given you forty fifty seconds and oh okay I got it. Well that lady should be at the very beginning or close to right so it's a big part of the experimentation process, right.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

You may have you know the perfect opening uh you know two minutes into your into your into your edit. So it's it's really just that's why I like building building the the things that are working because now I can move them around. Now I have complete little vignettes that that that that are are uh you know that they could snap into another section of the film neatly or you know w with obviously we want to massage them in but um that I can lift an entire section and move it around.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yes absolutely I can see that now from talking to you it makes sense. Well let's get into the most controversial thing right now which is what is the length of a trailer? What should it be? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 39:15

You know I unless you're going for uh there there's two there's lots of schools of thought on this. I just worked on a project where um the trailer ended up being over five minutes but it was because they had such a an enormous amount of great content they just wanted to show it off. And I kind of cautioned like hey we want maybe we should scale this back but ultimately the filmmaker decided no I I really want to show they they were pitching a reality show and they just wanted to show how much of the world was already built and existed. And you know what? It was the right decision because that's been greenlit. So you know so in that case it was five it was over five minutes. Personally I would love to you know I like to see trailers you know in that that sizzle length you know I uh two minutes. If if you could get it in in two minutes that's great. If you're doing a uh uh a funding reel where they want to see scenes from the film that could be ten to fifteen minutes. So there's real there's really no I I would say be very uh attentive to the guidelines of the grants you're applying for and know that you're m you may have three or four versions of your of your trailer or your demo. You know you may have a a 30 second sizzle or teaser um you you may have something you know uh two minutes uh for for for grants and then for for you know for big funding you may have something much longer. So you know be prepared to have a a couple of different versions.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

I think that's really important. In fact one way to do it that's called cover your basis is to get a 10 minute trailer, a five-minute trailer and a two-minute because those seem to be the ones that are asked for the most if you're going after grants if you get online and start checking I don't have a time limit on my trailers and but I like it I like a three to five minute trailer uh if it's a complicated documentary it's gonna take you that long to tell me the story from the angles you want because sometimes Michael people make a film about an issue that's been talked about before but they're coming at it from a new angle and that's a very interesting part that's where the interest is in the film is this new angle on an old subject so that sometimes they need, in my opinion, uh the four minute, three minute, four minute trailer, even up to five minutes, I don't mind watching it if it is telling me a good story.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

That's such a a great point you make because it's it really does a and and s it depends on the story, right? And how how much you're you need to convey for for your audience to understand what it is you're trying to pull off. And so if it's a simple story, yeah maybe it could be a little shorter but you're right i if if you're trying to establish characters and perspective and tone and point of view you may need a little longer to do that. And even thinking about my own albizo trailer is it I think it's it's over five minutes that one as well. So again I I don't think there's any uh uh there there's a uh rules to it but um I uh even if it's five minutes I do think that that like you said that first you know 15 seconds to thirty seconds man you really want to nail the synopsis there or or that sticky story you know get it right up front. Up front exactly okay so let's recap for filmmakers and start with um you first you've uh look how do you hire an editor you go online look at their work and then make an appointment talk to them I I'd say word of mouth is probably how I I've gotten ninety-nine percent of my work and it's also how I go about finding uh DPs, editors. I want to I want to work with people um that that have been recommended that that have you know that have uh gone through the fire with someone else. And so ask your filmmaking friends call from the heart Carol Dean will turn you on to some good people and you know you you you you there's so many wonderful resources for filmmakers and communities that we can join to to to to kind of find you know the the you're getting into a relationship when you're when you're bringing someone on to work on something that you love. And and so I I think it's important that you vibe with the person. You know just as important as their work is is how comfortable you are working with them, giving uh giving and getting feedback. You really want to you want to be with someone uh that you trust and can be vulnerable around.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yes. Exactly. And the most thing is to enjoy it because this can be a lot of fun and a lot of creativity. This is one of the most creative parts of filmmaking in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

I'm so happy you said that because you're right. It should be fun. This whole process should be so much fun. I I I I think I've had the m a blast editing trailers because it's it's it's the experimentation phase. There's the you know you get to throw everything at the wall. There's no wrong yet. And and so you really, you know, it it's it's where you get to play the most I would say in the in the process of making the film. You're you're you're going to get to really play with what the story is there.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

When um years ago my first experience in the editing room um we took the editing we hired it for two hours and I said to Carol Joyce, my daughter, well who we we can never use two hours. She said, just wait you know and so it was it felt like twenty minutes went by and somebody was knocking on the door and I opened the door and this guy said your time is up and I looked at the watch and I said no we have three more minutes and slammed the door ran back over to the editing thing and said we have to do the we need another five hours because I love that it was so much fun and it it was like a time warp.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

It really is and and and it's so I I I I I I love rabbit holes and and so I I love you know just seeing where where where a story can take you and and and there's just so you know something I I want to say Carol before we get off is that there's so many great resources now with YouTube we have the the capacity to to to kind of pirate material in some ways to tell the stories that we need to tell. And I wouldn't you know obviously you know you need you want rights and clearances but when you're making a trailer you know it's kind of the wild west you can use someone else's music. You well let me actually let me back up a little bit. If if you're going to put your content online then you want to make sure you're you know you're clear where your material is sourced from. But I do think there's an opportunity now. There there's a a wonderful resource called um Prellinger Archives um and it's a a a a library of public domain film footage. So uh I mean you just have hundreds of thousands of hours of of potential B roll there that can help you tell your story. So I just think we're we're at a a great time in documentary filmmaking where where with Zoom with YouTube we can articulate how it is we want to tell our story and and and there's nothing stopping us from doing that now.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Well spell that for us that starts with the P like policy Prelinger Archive just like it sounds uh P-R-E-L-I-N-G-E-R uh archives and and they're a wonderful resource. They have a a great um catalog that you can just search with keywords. And I mean all of this is public domain so you're talking mostly uh footage from the 50s, 60s and 70s, but sometimes you know that could uh I I I've I've told stories about present day rap beefs using archival you know material from from the past. So you know there's no limit to what we can uh what we can do um uh and what we have access to.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yes, all these are great ideas. I think we should use everything we can to get the trailer made because in my opinion that's your greatest fundraising tool your trailer. It says I am I'm an artist, I know w how to tell a story, I'm good at cinematography, I'm good at sound. Uh uh s so this gets people over this trust barrier. Uh you know, before they want to give you money, they want to know do I trust you and do I like you and so when you show them that you know how to make a film, which is your trailer, this gives them the confidence to write you the twenty thousand dollar check to go out there and take real interviews. Now that you've got something off of Zoom and we know what you can do, then we're interested in funding you. That's what happens.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Absolutely if you can make a Zoom video work you can make you can make anything work as a level of trust that that that you've established. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah. Well thank you Michael so much for this information.

SPEAKER_03 48:47

So tell us again how people can reach you please oh uh through my website uh mtorres dot com oh excuse me mtorresproductions dot com uh you can see my work there and uh feel free to reach out.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Good. Thank you so much for the work you do Michael. We really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Oh thank you Carol this has been a blast Okay thank you Claire Oh you are welcome and it was really a pleasure Michael I appreciate everything you're doing out there and I know you're gonna uh continue to do good work.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Thank you Claire it was great connecting with you and uh much love and success to you all.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Okay thank you Michael bye peace be well everyone be well everyone now in its second edition Carol Dean's popular book The Art of Film Funding has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer how to make an ask for money create your story structure and your trailer legal advice fair use successful crowdfunding how to ask for music rights and what insurance you can't shoot without available on Amazon under Carol Dean and at FromTheheartproductions.com I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story please contact him at davidraklin.com that's david r-a-i-k-l-e-n dot com and Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at From the Heartproductions com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

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