Successful documentary self distribution shared by Robyn Symon

Join Robyn Symon who raised over $200K on Kickstarter for her documentary.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Love Holmes Radio.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Hi and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Papan, along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding. Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Today we are joined by our guest host, filmmaker Heather Lenz, best known for directing and producing the Sundance documentary Kusama Infinity. Our special guest today is filmmaker Robin Simon, a former senior producer at PBS. Robin has produced and directed dozens of hours of content for various networks, including the Travel Channel, Discovery, HGTV, and others. Her past work includes Transformation, the Life and Legacy of Warner Earhart, about a controversial pioneer of the multi-billion dollar self-help industry, Behind the Blue Veil, about the plight of the nomadic Tuareg caught in the middle of the war on terror. And Uncle Gloria, one hell of a ride, about a macho auto parts dealer who hides from the law as a woman before undergoing sex reassignment surgery. Her latest film, Do No Harm, exposes the hidden epidemic of physician suicide and is distributed by PBS internationally. It was supported with a From the Heart Roy W. Dean film grant. Her work has also received two Emmys, three National Tele Awards, two National Association of Black Journalist Awards, and honors by the Association Press, among others.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Well, thank you, Claire, for the introduction, and thank you so much, Robin, for being here. For anyone who hasn't seen Do No Harm, can you please tell us what it's about and what m motivated you to make the movie?

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Yeah, I'm so happy to be here, Heather and Claire. Do no harm exposes the hidden epidemic of physician suicide and burnout among medical students and physicians, and the link to a very high rate of medical mistakes. So that was an important motivation for me in doing the film because, you know, there are a lot of professions like like veterans that that have PTSD and experience burnout, uh, even suicide is high among veterans and just the public in general. So why physicians? But when I looked into the link to medical errors, preventable medical mistakes, which are somewhere between 20 and 40,000 preventable deaths every year, uh for me that was shocking. This was like a public health crisis, and that link to sleep deprivation among physicians and medical students, uh burnout, that link had not been established yet. And in fact, it was a taboo to even talk about problems associated with physicians, you know, mental health issues. The stigma was huge. So when I started making this film, it it was just unspoken.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, when I watched your film, it was really shocking to learn about the great rates of um suicide and and you know, you delve into the sleep deprivation, which is just astonishing. Could you talk a little bit about the steps involved with becoming a physician, including the time and expense that's typically involved these days, and what the medical residency used to look like versus what it looks like now?

SPEAKER_04 4:27

So uh after four years of college, you know, getting a bachelor's degree, then you have to go to four years of medical school, followed by three to seven years of a residency program, depending on your specialty. Uh if you're if you want to be a family physician, it it may only be three years. Um, but if it's a specialty that requires more training, you would go to seven and you would do your fellowship. Generations ago, it's so interesting that doctors would simply graduate from medical school and do an apprentice with the local town doctor, or they would sleep at the hospital for a year or so to further their education, which is where the term resident comes from. They literally lived in the hospital. So now they don't live there, they go home, but they're still forced to work these 24, 28 hour shifts or more, which becomes very dangerous for them as well as their patients, because they just they they don't they don't sleep, and we interview experts in the film from Harvard University that show quite clearly that after about 16 hours you're really not functioning at any normal rate. So you're not learning as a physician in training, and you can make mistakes. So but but that's that's the way the system is and it causes a lot of problems. And the cost of going through medical training is anywhere between$300,000,$400,000. So the the problem is that once you're into your first year of medical school and you're oh about$50,000 in debt, what uh you know, you're you'll almost feel trapped if you feel like this is not for me, this is not what I thought medicine was going to be, that if you're disillusioned that it it's run more like a corporation as opposed to the ideal that you had of just helping people and spending time with your patients, you you feel trapped because now you're$50,000 in debt, and if you spend, say, the first year, you're$100,000 in debt. And you can't you feel like you can't leave because what other profession are you gonna have with the skills that you have that can pay off that kind of debt? So that feeling of being trapped leads people to feel powerless and hopeless about their future.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

One thing I thought was interesting in the film is that decades ago in the 50s or you know, the way back, uh these medical residents, as you said, lived in the hospital, but it sounds like they actually did sleep at night because the labs and so forth were actually closed at the hospital versus being open, you know, 24-7. And so now they're forced to work 24 or more hours at a time and having to drive home and leave the hospital, which is actually more dangerous than than staying there. So it's very interesting. It's very interesting. And could you talk a little bit about the amount they're paid as residents? Because I thought that was a pretty interesting uh part of the film.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

It varies uh depending on the region. You know, in a bigger city you'll be paid more, but uh it could be$30,000,$40,000. So when you, you know, do the math of how many hours they're working, you know, they're they're working like that minimum wage. So they are in training, but you know, it's very difficult to survive. So you've got this pressure of of supporting yourself while you're sleep deprived and pimped. And uh in pimped means put in my place. Um so you're basically being intimidated, put on the spot by your senior residents or attending physicians. So there there's all and there you have feelings of isolation because you don't want to let on to anyone you're with that you're feeling lost or hopeless, or you you just you know, you have to be tough. So yeah, it it's it's really complicated and sad. And it it starts in medical school. This kind of one of the most shocking things was how when when they start medical school and you're like, oh my god, this person's brilliant, uh, they would be treated with such respect, but they're actually treated in many uh res in many medical schools like bad kindergartners. It's really it was shocking to me. And even residents in the hospitals are treated like that too. Just very little respect.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

So very much. Yeah, it's really it's really sad. I another part of the film that's so interesting is that in spite of these crummy wages they're making after taking on all of this debt and working in these, you know, really tough circumstances, um, you point out that the average hospital CEO is making about six hundred thousand dollars a year to a million a year, and they also have bonuses and incentives that can uh take that number of millions of million. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so shocking. It's so shocking. So were there any other things that you uh found out or experienced while making this movie that just, you know, really were, you know, mind-boggling to you?

SPEAKER_04 10:25

I think the devastation to the families uh was difficult, difficult for me, because uh that lifestyle, you know, sleep deprivation, being taken away from your family, you know, you barely see your family, how this uh damages the family, and then of course if you start sinking into a depression or burnout, y you feel like you don't want to burden your your partner or your family, so you sort of suffer in silence, and that does a lot of damage. You know, you you have to learn how to cope on your own because of the stigma. And uh my I I have some uh physicians in my family. My uncle was a a surgeon, and I when I started this film, I I said to him, Well, I d uh did you experience this and how did you cope? And he said, Oh, I had to go by myself, find a quiet place, a hall, and and cry when I lost a patient, for example, especially, you know, a child. And uh I said, You could you couldn't talk to anyone? He said, Absolutely not, absolutely not. You would never ever show emotion. So imagine that, you know, not being able to show emotion in that kind of business where you, you know, are facing life and death every day. It's tragic. It's tragic. And this film was shot before COVID, uh, so there was already a lot of pressure on the system and the burnout levels were high. When COVID hit, it took an already stressed system and made it so much worse.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah, that's definitely true. Good point. The film covers some really tragic events, and as a filmmaker, I'm wondering how you process these heartbreaking stories that you're hearing so that you can do this amazing work you're doing as an advocate to get the word out and and try to help change the system.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

I mean, you know, I shed a lot of tears, so do crew members, um, but I think that it's an important role to play. Many of these families, loved ones, feel completely powerless in their grief. And I feel like what we're doing is giving them an opportunity to tell their stories and help them grieve, and at the same time creating this public awareness for other people that might be feeling the same thing but too afraid to come forward. So um that that's what motivates me to to do it. I think I gravitate towards films that expose something happening that isolates a particular population and just creating this awareness about them so they feel less isolated and the public is more aware, more conscious of what's going on in this sector of our population.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

I think that's an important um, yeah, and that's an important population to help. I don't think anyone wants to be treated by a doctor who's been awake for 24 or more hours. Do you have any suggestions for what regular people can do to help change um the problem of these excessively long shifts?

SPEAKER_04 14:13

It's so interesting. I remember when I was interviewing one of the Harvard sleep experts, he told me when he goes into the hospital, when they see him coming, they know he's going to ask them how many hours they have been on shift. And you know what? You have a right to know how long a physician or resident has been working. Um there are some medical organizations that wish that you didn't have that right and have fought to deny you that right, but you have to be your own advocate and an advocate for your loved ones. It's really a matter of life and death. So ask questions of who is taking care and even double check, you know, like can you double check that on the chart to make sure they're getting the right, you know, prescription or uh that I'm supposed to be getting this. Uh you know, it it it's you you have to. You have to. You can't be shy about it. And how many hours they've been on shift is a legitimate question. You know, you can ask in a nice way, but uh I would ask, I would ask.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah, I imagine if you have a planned surgery, that that um is a great idea. But if you're coming into the ER and you've had your, you know, you've been shot or you you've broken your leg or something, I guess you take the help you can get. But I believe the movie um mentions that if um all of these medical workers had to wear a badge that kept track of how many hours they were on shift and people could actually see it, they would you know, that might help change the system.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Yeah, no one would want I think one of the physicians said if we had to wear a badge that said how many hours we've been on shift, no one would want to see us. And it's funny, but it's uh but it's true. I mean, they're extraordinary people, physicians with incredible resilience. So they can handle more than most of us in terms of uh sleep, lack of sleep, uh, but they are human.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, definitely true. It's the same as you wouldn't want to get in a plane with a pilot who's been awake for 36 hours or into a taxi with someone who's been awake all these hours. It's just uh, you know, you're putting your life in someone's hands, and many cases it's so it's it's uh it's a unfortunate system. Could you talk about it?

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Yeah, or if you were uh oh, I just want to mention that, you know, i if uh if you're at a bar and you're drunk, that uh bartender, that the owner uh would be liable if you go out and and uh and hit someone when you're drunk. Well, sleep deprivation is like being drunk, yet the hospitals aren't responsible if you have an accident uh and and and hurt someone, you hurt yourself. So it's the regulation and protection for healthcare workers and uh and patients uh is not there in the the medical field like it is in the in aviation.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, that's definitely something that should be addressed. Could you please talk a little bit about your experience fundraising for the film? I know you know you're working as an independent docum documentarian, so this this part of the puzzle fundraising can be very challenging and it can limit what people can do. So how did you uh go about that?

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Yeah, um at this stage in my career, I don't get involved in a film that doesn't have funding attached or that that the people you know that that I'm working with don't don't have the plan for funding. But the most important thing that I do is um I make sure before I spend years doing a film that there's an audience for the film, that there's a big audience for the film where I'm reasonably sure that if we have screenings that we're going to be able to recoup what was invested in the film. So it was interesting for Do No Harm is that we actually had an investor and he wanted to do a film on AI, artificial intelligence instead. But I was already committed to because I had shot a couple of scenes, a a couple of important scenes, and I wanted to continue, but he didn't. So but there were some physicians who felt that there was a large audience that wanted this film to be made, this story to be told. So I agreed to do a Kickstarter campaign. And if we weren't successful, um people wouldn't support it. I would use that as you know a good sign that that there wasn't an audience for this. I I would have backed away. But it it was very successful. Very quickly, we the first uh Kickstarter campaign for the for Do No Harm raised over a hundred thousand dollars. And then uh that was for uh pre-production and and production, and then we raised, we did a second Kickstarter campaign and again raised uh over a hundred thousand dollars. And then we had other people that came in that at some point because Kickstarter takes a percentage and credit cards take another percentage, uh, and if you work with a Kickstarter expert, they take a percentage. So uh when we knew that we were going to meet our goal, we actually had many people who wanted to support the film contribute outside of uh the Kickstarter campaign and directly to our fiscal sponsor. So so I knew that there was a huge audience for this film, medical schools, hospitals, um uh public safety, you know, patient safety groups. Uh so so and I thought it was a a public health care crisis. So um so I I saw this audience there, and that's why, you know, I w it was seven years of my life between shooting and and post production and marketing outreach. So yeah, so I I knew I knew the audience was there. We premiered at the Cleveland International Film Festival. We had a lot of uh we submitted to, you know, the top ten film festivals, but it it didn't get in, but it was okay because this was a grassroots outreach film, and we made quite a bit of money doing screenings at medical school hospitals and conferences and didn't rely, didn't need to rely on distribution.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Great. And Cleveland is a nice festival. It is one of the Oscar qualifying um film festivals for excuse me, it's a tongue twister, film festivals for documentaries these days, as I understand it. Um a lot of times people go out to raise money for a film, n you know, especially first time filmmakers, and um mm you know they don't have all this experience you have, and I think Sometimes the people who who they they are asking to contribute uh really don't understand the costs associated with making a film, even things like color correction and just all sorts of things, how they add up travel expenses and so on. How do you um explain these costs to people who may not have any background in film so that they're more um inclined to be understanding and and to support your work?

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Well, I I do a line item budget uh for the film so they can see exactly how much goes into travel, how much goes into cruise, post-production, editing, color correction, sound mixing, uh original music. So it's all there, you know, in the budget to for anyone to see. And you know, your your budget could be, you know, small depending on, you know, if you're shooting locally, or it could be$300,000 to over a million dollars or more. So uh and now what's interesting is that a bigger budget needs to be set aside for outreach and audience engagement. Almost a third of your budget easily. Some people say half of your budget, which it seems like a crazy amount, but that outreach and audience in audience engagement is so important if you want to, you know, get this film out in the world and uh, you know, and hope to recoup the money that was put into the film. And I I, you know, put myself in, you know, in the budget uh as director, producer, editor, but I always uh by the way, hire um editorial consultants. They're so important for me. So I'll do a rough cut of the film and then we'll hire editorial consultants to come in and uh help me with structure or polish it, pacing. So that's part of my budget too.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

That's great advice. And so you've talked about how involved you were with getting this film out there in a grassroots way. Do you have advice for other filmmakers about how they can um figure out if their audience is there like you did, and and make that connection um, you know, tips for connecting with their audience and surviving as an independent documentarian by by reaching that audience.

SPEAKER_04 24:37

Yeah, I've I've been very lucky to sustain a career in documentary filmmaking for many years, and I think part of it is because I, you know, choose subjects carefully, and it's always so puzzling to me that a lot of filmmakers, especially young filmmakers, embark on a project without knowing that there's an audience for for their film, and an audience that is going to spend spend the money. And the way you you figure that out is you sort of do a spreadsheet and who write down who would be the potential audience. So are there organizations, what kind of organizations, how big are the organizations? Do these organizations have funding that could support screenings? Are there put potential corporate sponsors that might want to come on board to sponsor a tour or maybe, you know, um a public television broadcast? So y I look at all of the I start researching, you know, who the groups are and I just make a list and make a little and uh including how large these groups are and what what their uh funding and financial situation is. So for example, with with Uncle Gloria, uh there wasn't even though there is a big LGBTQ community, uh it it wasn't a community that had organizations that spent a lot of money on screenings, for example. So so that, you know, that was a learning uh experience for me. But but you I think you need to do your due diligence before you take on any project. Unless you go in saying, you know what, this is a love project, it's about my grandfather, and you know, I want to tell his story, and I know there might be a limited audience, but I feel like I have to do that. I you know, if you if you feel that you have to, then go ahead and do it, but but be careful about bringing in investors and promising them that you know they're gonna recruit recoup their funding um on such a film.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Well, that's a good point. You don't want anyone to be disappointed. Um and you brought up um My Uncle Gloria, which is another great film, very different. Uh could you tell us a little bit about that film and and how you got involved with making it?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Hi, Uncle Gloria. I was a producer at uh the PBS station WPBT in Miami uh and was approached to shoot a sex change operation, uh a M to F, male to female. This was like a s second part of the sex change operation, and they wanted the subject, Gloria, wanted a female producer who could shoot, and I can I shoot many of my own scenes. Uh so so they reached out to me. Uh this was long before, about ten years before the series Transparent. So there wasn't a lot about um transgender uh people and uh citizens, and it was a very unique story. So um I shot the operation and there was there was like a ten-year gap of production um after after the film because there was a nephew who wanted to control the project and I, you know, couldn't work that way, so I just sort of put it on a shelf for ten years, and then ten years later, uh wondered if she was still alive, what happened to her, how she was doing. There was a wealth of of video um that she had shot throughout her transition. So there's so much great stuff there. And I submitted it for a film independent fellowship and uh got that fellowship. So now I was really motivated to to do the rough cut. So we reunited and um I shot, you know, went back to Miami and uh shot many more scenes and you know, finished finished it up. Uh it's uh, you know, I love that film. It was a little ahead of its time, maybe, because you know, I I uh there were some people in the LGBT cube community who didn't understand Gloria because she is not a typical, you know, born in the wrong body uh story for a transgendered uh person who we're that we're used to seeing. She was much more flippant about it and you know, as you saw, you know, she's she's very funny about it, which I probably should have fought harder to dig deeper but you know, but beneath that, because she's often used humor, you know, to hide, you know, uh fear and insecurity. But the big, you know, cautionary tale about the film is that after it was done and it it it screened it like I'm looking here at my poster, I don't know, 20, 30 film festivals, very successful, top LGBT film festivals, uh mainstream festivals, and we signed with a distributor called Accelerator Media, and then they went bankrupt and it was taken over by a new distributor, Alameda, and uh w you know we've barely seen any money. You know, they they just come up with marketing expenses that are more than you know, more than they're making uh it each you know uh each recording period. So it it's been a frustration uh, you know, in in with distribution. So yeah, really read the contract if you do sign with the distributor for rights.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Well, I'm very sorry to hear that, and I ha must say I've heard similar stories m many, many, many times, including the company going out of business and so um, you know, shirking their responsibilities to the filmmaker who's put in the time and the money and the effort and the passion. You you did mention the um uh the complexities of dealing with uh, you know, a controlling family member who wants to be involved with the project. And when you came back to the film all those years later, how did that are you able to talk about how that resolved or changed so you could m m you know do your own creative work on this project?

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Yeah, it just had to be an understanding that I had to have creative control over the film, and um that it just had to be an understanding, and I think that family member understood that that was the only way it was going to get done since I had the footage of the surgery, and um, you know, they weren't happy about it, but it's a much better film for it, uh, because they wanted a focus that was more about the fam them uh as opposed to Gloria's life. So it was it was difficult, but um, you know, Gloria was very happy, cried when she saw the film, and uh yeah, yeah, she's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

So it's a really I'm happy really, really sweet film, really heartwarming ending. And as you mentioned, she is a complex character, so I can understand why some people would be confused, but it's just such a great film, and um so I'm glad that that that worked out and that you were able to make it happen. Um so you are uh just this absolutely multi-talented filmmaker who wears many hats. You mentioned you you've shot, you edit, you direct, you produce, you really do it all. Could you talk about that and what are, you know, what are the pros and cons? What are what are your you know favorite things and least favorite things about doing all these tasks?

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Well, I remember when I was uh producer at the PBS station in Miami, and before I could edit and before I would shoot, uh you know, we were really at the mercy of you know the editor's schedules, and uh and um that was frustrating for me. It was also um frustrating like the time it I it would take to explain what I wanted to try in an edit. Um I just wanted to do it, you know, and see how it worked. So it it came out of a necessity uh working on my first independent feature transformation with uh about Werner Earhart, who started Est back in the 70s, and I needed to shoot many more interviews with him because he was so l leery of media, and uh so I I needed to spend a lot more time with him, and of course he was all over the world. So when it came to post-production, we really didn't have the money that we needed to um to hire an editor. So I taught myself uh how to edit on uh um uh final cut. Final cut pro those before premiere Final Cut. And uh and and I just did it, you know. I just yeah, I I did it, but it was very creative and I loved the process. It was storytelling, you know, it's just you and your footage, and I loved the process of storytelling and and trying things and uh so so I love that. Likewise with shooting, you know, it's so it's so easy. I I have a good eye, and so um I just love to get out with you know with my camera. I was shooting with uh like a a DSLR canon uh Mark III 70 Mark III and and uh it it looks like you know a a still camera, and so I was able to shoot uh very quietly uh intimate scenes and in places that you know we didn't need to get a permit. It was very spontaneous, and that's what you really want. The magic comes from these spontaneous moments in documentaries, unlike when you do a narrative feature where everything is scripted. So when you walk around with just a little camera and it's you and your subject, uh of course sound is important, so um that was a you know an issue sometimes, but I would have a little extender mic and you know got close, which is why you know I was shooting it myself anyway, to be very close to the subject and and it worked, and it worked. So um I I enjoy I enjoy wearing all those hats.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah. Did you shoot the opening scene in My Uncle Gloria with the auto mechanic?

SPEAKER_04 36:19

No, no. Actually for that one I shot scenes like that were more intimate, you know, besides the surgery, her getting dressed in her uh room, um, her, you know, her shopping, her, you know, in the mail salon. But there were some scenes like the, you know, S and M scene. Having seen the film, I don't want to scare people, or maybe this will intrigue people. Um she was a dominatrix for a while to make money, so I didn't shoot those scenes. So so the opening scene I had a very talented uh DP in Miami shoot that scene and a few others, a few and and interviews I like to have uh a full crew, you know, for lighting and all that.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Well that yeah, but part of the reason I asked about that car scene, it's very eye-catching in part because of the color, you know. But also Gloria's um kind of uh playful spirit starts to come out, you know. Um so I'm I'm wondering how how did you get into making documentaries in the first place? Like did you have a favorite documentary you saw and you thought, oh my gosh, I want to do that, or or or what was it that got you into it?

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Uh it was sort of a progression. I was a TV news reporter uh in Texas and then moved to Miami and started working, you know, f as a producer for the PBS station there, doing working on a magazine show that was eventually um uh bought by the Travel Channel too about Florida. And so I went from you know TV news to magazine style shows to feature-length documentaries while working at the PBS station in Miami, and then uh started to do some national documentaries for PBS, like pledge specials while working at the PBS station in Miami. So it it it was more of a progression for me, but it was funny, Heather, I remember when I first started because I came from the news business, uh, I had to do a segment that was like seven, eight minutes long, and I kept sculpting, sculpting, sculpting, and before I was done, it was like two minutes long because you know that's what I was trained to do. And I had to say, Oh, I I need to pace this better, and I need to layer a documentary, even even a magazine style, you know, seven minute segment, it it's different. There's a progression, and you have to learn how to s layer and structure for each medium, whether it's a magazine show or feature. And that's what you know, I know some kids because they have a camera and they just sort of jump into it, but you really do need to think about the journey that you're taking on with these characters and the structure and how you want to deepen the issue and and expose new um issues related to your topic, how and when you bring it in. So it really um it takes experience and uh trial and error and um a journalistic background for me was really helpful. But I I mean there were films like Capturing the Freedmen's was one of my favorite documentaries. I love Amisha and the Wolves, I just saw Twenty Feet from Start of My Love, they're just so Sugarman, no, I mean so many. I love documentary films, and I love when they capture magic. So Capturing the Freedmen's was originally, you know, going to be a documentary about clowns in New York, and then of course turned out to be this incredible story of a family who two of the family members were being accused of uh child abuse. So that became the story. And you know, I just love that. I love that aspect of documentary filmmaking.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

And uh so many of the filmmakers who listen to this podcast are getting are interested in getting their films on to PBS. As a former senior producer at PBS, do you have any advice that you can share?

SPEAKER_04 41:00

Yeah, there's a world of difference between PBS national shows and uh you know their series like POV and Frontline and public television distribution services like APT and NETA. APT and NETA uh don't function the way a traditional distributor would. In other words, you know, you would get X number of dollars for X number of plays. For APT and NETA, which service the public television stations within the PBS, you actually pay to get on the service, but you can get sponsors. And it's easier to do because uh you can contact your local PBS station and they can act as a presenting station, uh, or they may or may not charge you depending on your relationship, but some do. Uh and then uh you can fill you know these little one-minute or two minute in the beginning and the end of the program with sponsors to recoup some funding because they they don't pay. Um PBS internationally or APT internationally, which is APTs where do no harm uh was distributed, they had the foreign rights. Uh they function like a traditional uh distributor, you know, territory by territory. And of course, you know, PBS POV frontline, they also will pay you to to uh uh for the program for a certain number of plays over a certain number of years. But a but that's it's very difficult and very competitive to get accepted on one of the national PBS programs. Much easier for the APT and NETA, which you can work with you know through your local PBS station.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yes, I know it's it's I've heard stories of just how incredibly hard it is to get those national broadcasts. Uh we're you know nearing the end here, but I wonder if you have any advice for first-time filmmakers that you haven't already shared.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

I would really just say please, please research your audience because you don't want to spend a lot of money or spend a lot of time only to find out that there may not be that much interest in the topic, or you have to mold the topic so that there is a great public interest with a built-in audience that has organizations, that has, you know, a lot of advocates. You just need that dedicated audience because distribution, unless you are incredibly lucky to premiere at a top ten film festival and get a great distribution. deal and in advance and or it's like a Netflix deal that they're gonna pay you five million or fifteen million dollars. I mean it's so rare. Many films that premiere at Sundance don't even get distribution deals. So you really need to know your audience because that's where you're going to make money and sustain yourself as a filmmaker after the film is done. It's that audience engagement and it's it's going to be up to you and you just need to know that it exists beforehand.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Great advice. For anyone who hasn't seen Do No Harm, where can they see it?

SPEAKER_04 44:41

Uh Do No Harm is on Amazon and it's on Vimeo on Demand. Uh the Vimeo on Demand has a lot of extras uh deleted scenes that for the same price so you can go to our website do no harmfilm.com and click on the Vimeo link so you get more for your money if you're curious about seeing the film. So do no harmfilm dot com is uh the will give you all the options that's the best place to see the different options. Um and and that's and I um I'm starting a a new film. We are going to do a Kickstarter campaign but we've also gotten you know some grants already about the hidden dangers of study abroad programs. So I'm super excited about that. And I think it's a topic because it's higher education, parents that international travel, that there is a big audience so I'm about to you know jump into yet another journey building up for this Yeah, well that that sounds like a great topic.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Very um unique. Um I guess the the biggest poster child for that I'm her name is escaping me, that gal that went to Italy and ended up in jail for that murder. Um so yes at the extreme end of what what could go wrong. Um could you please share your website and social media handles that could be individual or for your individual films so that people can follow you in your work.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

So uh do no harmfilm.com is for do no harm or SimonProductions.com is my website. Uh and for Twitter and Facebook it's uh do no harmfilm or um I'm Robin Simon yeah I I have my Facebook page. I'm not that great about uh social media and I really need to get much better at it but um I do at least have the the page and Twitter and you know but yeah I need to get a lot better at that.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Well it's it's very very time consuming keeping up with all of that that's for sure. Certainly and is there anything um that I didn't ask you that you would like to share before we wrap up No, I I'm so grateful and grateful to from the Horror Productions and the Roy Dean grant.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

You know, that validation uh is so important as a filmmaker because you know you're you're applying for so many things and any validation you can get uh is important especially you know from our peers. So I'm so grateful to Carol uh for for the Roy Dean grant early on and uh I encourage people to apply for grants even though it's so competitive but uh it really is a good idea to stay involved in community.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Yeah, good point. And for anyone who doesn't know Carol is the founder of um of From the Heart. So um and you know we we are running out of time but I would like to ask you one last thing if you don't mind for Do No Harm I know that you did manage to get it approved for CME credits for physicians and I wonder if you could talk about that. I've never heard of a filmmaker doing anything like that. Was that your idea or did you know of someone who had done that?

SPEAKER_04 48:27

And maybe you could also just say what a CME credit is Yeah um cME stands for continuing medical education. So physicians need to have X number of credits for continuing education for their you know professional growth. And so uh it was one of the hospitals or medical school it was one of the hospitals that uh said oh can we get CME credit and we're going to apply for it. And I said oh great because it it's so it's so attractive for them to you know offer that uh for physicians as an incentive to show up to an event. Uh so it's yeah so it's terrific. So definitely to find out if your film can qualify for any type of continuing education credit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Yeah it's great great idea and I actually I want to add one last thing here coming back to um you know your movie and the high rates of physician suicide that were I don't think we actually talked about the numbers but I believe it was about 400 a year so quite high. By chance I had the privilege of interviewing a man who's an advocate for vets and people in the military who need mental health services but but just like physicians are are um fearful of the possibly career ending stigma associated with that. And uh this man Will um William Negley he created an app that assigns random names to people seeking help and pairs them with mental health professionals so that they never know the person's identity. So I guess you know this problem which is serious you know for physicians and others there sounds like there is um actually a a tech um solution if there was funding to back that up so I just wanted to mention it in case we have someone listening who uh you know is in a position to somehow utilize that information to to help these physicians who are you know um needing help. So and I just want to thank you again for your you know amazing work and such uh you know so wonderful that you're willing to share all this amazing expertise that you have and thank you Claire for your help too.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

My pleasure to be with you both yes be well everyone okay take care now in its second edition Carol Dean's popular book The Art of Film Funding has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer how to make an ask for money create your story structure and your trailer legal advice fair use successful crowdfunding how to ask for music rights and what insurance you can't shoot without available on Amazon under Carol Team and at Frustheartproductions.com I want to remind our listeners that David Raikland is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart production. If you need music to help tell your story please contact him at davidrakland.com That's david r-a-i-k-l-n dot com and Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at From theheartproductions.com You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films everyone