Janice Engle shares how to get your film into Sundance

Guest host Heather Lenz interviews Janice Engel about her documentary: RAISE HELL: The Life and Times of Molly Ivins.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Love Hope Radio.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Hi and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Today we are joined by our guest host, filmmaker Heather Lenz, best known for directing and producing the Sundance documentary, Kusama Infinity. We are pleased to have Janice Engel with us today. She's an award-winning filmmaker and showrunner who has created numerous documentaries, nonfiction television series, and specials for major media companies. Her most recent feature documentary, Raise Hell, The Life and Times of Molly Ivans, premiered at the 2019 Sundance Film Festival and won the award, the Audience Award, at South by Southwest. Raise Hell reflects themes Ingle holds dear, speaking truth to power, igniting activism, advocating for underdogs, and finding our shared humanity. The film was supported with a Roy Dean Film Grant from From the Heart Productions and recently appeared on the Rotten Tomatoes list of the top 213 best films directed by women of the 21st century. And as a side note, our guest host film, Kusama Infinity, was also supported with a Roy Dean Film Grant from From the Heart Productions, and also appeared on the list of the top 213 best films directed by women of the 21st century. Great to have you both on the show and really looking forward to the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Thank you so much, Claire, for the lovely introduction and thank you so much, Janice, for being here. I'm super excited to talk about your film, which I absolutely love. For anyone who doesn't already know, can you please tell us a little bit about who Molly was and why you decided to make a film about her?

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm really, really appreciative. And uh feel like I'm in um you know, good company, Heather.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

As two women filmmakers, you know, you know what what what an uphill battle that can be and has been, I'm sure, for both of us. Um Molly Ivans, well, you know, Molly Ivins, the six-foot-tall, you know, red-haired uh Texan who spoke truth to power and gave voice to those that didn't have one, but used humor to uh to basically get people to listen. Um she she was a maverick and um she took no prisoners. She wasn't afraid of anybody, she was incredibly courageous. And um I just so to be o totally honest, I did not know who Molly Ibans was. I know people find that kind of shocking. Uh I was I was I knew of her. I had heard of her. Um, but I didn't I wasn't part of her constituency. She literally had a constituency, and I was not part of it. She was at the height of her powers in over three to four hundred newspapers. But in terms of my timing, I grew up in New York, and that's when Molly was probably Molly was, you know, uh going she was in college, she was the Texas observer, that's part of her history, but it I wasn't in her that sphere. At the time she was in all these newspapers, I was in LA and focused in a different direction. And I think I had I had heard of her, I knew she had dubbed uh George W. Bush Shrub the Little Bush, which I thought was very funny, and I think I'd seen her on late night in the late 90s. The way I found out about her was my soon-to-be producing partner, James Egan, uh uh a documentary producer and as well as a professor and uh other other assorted things, um, wanted to make a film with me, and he called me up um in uh spring of 2012 and said, You need to go see this play at the Geffen Playhouse called Red Hat Patriot, the kick-ass wit of Molly Ivans. And not knowing really who she was, I said, Why? And he said, Because I had two last week, of course, which I I giggled. He knew he knew the playwrights. And um and he said, You need to go see it. And I and then he dangled the carrot. It stars Kathleen Turner in a one-woman show. And I said, Okay. I bought a ticket. I sat like third row, slightly off center, and I was blown away. I laughed my ass off by it the entire the entire, you know, uh length of the play. I I just I I it I laughed, I I almost cried. I went home and I Googled her till two or three in the morning and all these C-SPAN clips came up. I finally had to go to sleep and I was just I was knocked out and I called James in the morning and I said, you know, w what's up? And he said, Nothing's been done. And I said, Nothing's been done. He said, just the play. And I know the playwright. And uh he had gone backstage, he had talked to Kathleen. So we basically met with Alison and Margaret Engel, who actually their last name is the same last name as mine. We all spell it N G L'Asia. Isn't that interesting? And I became a joke that I said, you know, Engel in in in German and Danish and all these other languages means angel. And so I it became my joke that I said Molly has her brigade of angels doing her bidding for her down here on terra firma. So that's kind of how how it that that's how it got started.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Wow, that's quite a story. It's super interesting. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about um Molly's feelings about reporters and objectivity.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

Okay, well, you know, Molly Molly loved she she was a boots on the ground reporter. You know, she was, you know, she went to Columbia J School um the journalism school, because back then in the mid sixties, if you were a a woman journalist or uh and I put that in quotes, you were relegated to the snake pit, which was food, fashion, gardening and you know, tips about, you know, how to take care of your family. Um and the obituaries. That was not her her thing. And uh but she had great respect for she was a hardcore re reporter. She started out as a uh uh in the kind of the doing obituaries for the Houston Cron um when she was at, you know, during her summer breaks from Smith. And uh she did and there's there's a she did actually a very, very powerful piece um in the Houston Cron with uh Carlton Carl about uh race in the lower in the n in the lower wards in Houston, um the disparities of race. But she was in and but she knew that unless she got it got a master's degree, she would not be taken seriously. So she went to the Columbia J School. And when she got out of the Columbia J School, she um went to the two, she put in applications, because everybody would have relegated her to the snake pit. That she put in two applications to the two places. I think one is in in, I want to say Dade County in Miami, the other was the Mint Tribune, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which actually had, you know, made women reporters. And so she took the Min Trib. And so she had great respect for it. But the Min Trib um at her time there, and you have to watch the film to see what happened, but she watched Ray Tell, but she basically um uh ended up hang on, let me just there's a there's I'm just gonna get rid of this. She she ended up um bucking her editors there. She they had her do a piece called um to to kind of to track the youth movement. She had been f going to pro protests a lot, um, covering all of that was the time of the Chicago 7, and she did a piece called The Young Radicals. And so the trib felt, you know, it's it's you're taught in journalism school that, you know, you have to do fair and balanced, you know, reporting. And, you know, she, you know, get all sides of the story. You know, you have to be objective. And she um basically wasn't gonna have it. She she she did those pieces. She did the young conservative, and then she did an another one. Anyway, she was always coming up against her her bosses. And her Minneapolis Tribune editor, Frank Primack, called her out on it. And um, you know, she basically felt, as she said, rightfully, first of all, there's no such thing as objectivity, and everyone in journalism knows it. And we hoist ourselves on our own petard constantly by pretending that we're objective when there is no such thing. How you see the world depends on where you stand and who you are. There's nothing any of us can do about that. So my solution has been to let my readers know where I stand. And that that is that's Molly Ivan's words. That is exactly how she felt. And uh so go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

No, no, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

No, so that's that that's what started it. And and you know, really, okay, so I'm gonna flash forward. Here we are today, Heather. Fair and balanced, yeah. You know, uh in terms of and Molly, Molly was incredibly pressing it. She saw things and new things, you know, I I I'm gonna tell you ten, twenty, thirty years before they're gonna happen. She because she knew history. And she, you know, she railed against the the the media silos, the echo chambers. Where are we right now? It's all, it's all opinion journalism. Sadly, where are you gonna get really fair and balance? Maybe um the PBS News Hour, Judy Woodward, thank thank you, Judy, which is what uh I mean that's what I watch. I I can't listen. I mean MSNBC drives me crazy as much as Fox drives me crazy. I mean Mike, that's that's like I can't go there. But all I'm saying is that it she was railing about this back in the late 80s when all the media, the corporate media barons who she uh referred to as plantation owners, the latest crop of plantation own owners from back then Disney and Fox, it was Rupert Murdoch and Michael Eisner, um, you know, were gobble gobble gobbling everything up. And of course print journalism back then was already on the decline. And so what happens is you lose that objectivity because you are in, you know, you're in the constraints of your corporate master, as she put it. Yeah, I know that's a roundabout way. I covered a lot of themes in that.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah, yeah. No, well you definitely answered the question. I think it is very interesting the way she was thinking about it. Uh part of what makes her so compelling is at the time the main career choices for women were to be a nurse, a teacher, a secretary. So what she did really was pushing the boundaries. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how her strong personality impacted her ability to succeed in the workplace.

SPEAKER_04 12:11

Well, her her strong personality is what made people um here's the thing. She's i her she's six foot t she's six feet tall. So uh she she towered over most of, you know, a lot of her editors. Um but Molly had this incredible personality because she had a brilliant sense of humor. She was whip smart. Whip smart, but so, so funny. I mean, she showed up for her interview as a Texas observer with a sixth pack of beer. Sorry, Texas. And um and not afraid. I mean, just who she was, she strided in and she was given the gig with Kay Northcutt, who was equally as small as Molly is tall. They were really Mutt and Jeff. And they were two women in their early 20s who were allowed to edit the only liberal publication in the state, uh uh much less the South, much less the United States in 1970. That was incredibly, incredibly progressive. Um, and uh, you know, Molly, the brass ring for Molly was the New York Times. Oh my god. And she she left the Observer and she went to the New York Times, which for a lot of journalists was and is the brass ring. And uh, you know, they wanted Molly for her voice, but they they you know, they ended up she ended up getting into because of her voice and the way she saw things, um, they fired her for her voice. She went to toe-to-toe with Abe Rosenthal. You know, she came up at a time where, you know, it was it was patriarchy, it was white men running the newsrooms. I mean, you would look down the aisle and it was a bunch of guys. So she stood out. She had a wicked sense of humor, which made her very popular, but then she could use that humor to, you know, go toe-to-toe. So in the end, it made absolute not in the end, but actually in the beginning of when she became a columnist, which really set her on her true path, um, it it it it was that wit and that very, very kind of laser sharp laser edge that made her have her own voice and become um renowned for it.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Part of what makes her such a great subject for a film is that she was this larger than life character, not just because of her height, but because of the way that she moved through the world, and you mentioned that she was six feet tall, and you mentioned a little bit about you know how she towered over her editors and and how this um impacted the way they treated her. Do you have any thoughts about how it impacted her personal life and and which of course these things are always intertwined, our personal lives and and our professional lives? I just wonder if you have any thoughts about that.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

Well, you know, as a kid she was, you know, she was as her friends told me, and her her sister and her brother, she was six feet tall by the time she was twelve or thirteen, and it made her incredibly self-conscious. Um she was a bookworm. Her nickname as a kid was Mole, and her her family used to say Mole was in the hole upstairs reading her book, uh, reading her books, her pile of books. Um she was incredibly self-conscious. She wore glasses and um she towered over everybody even back then. And you know, she joked about it. She said that she always felt like she was um a a St. Bernard with a bunch of greyhounds, a Clydesdale amongst thoroughbreds, because she grew up very um in a very well-to-do family. She grew up in the Tonyest neighborhood of Houston, River Oaks. She went to a private school called St. John, which she transferred to in junior high. And uh this is kind of a funny story, but her which didn't make the film, but her her besties, who uh were throughout life, told me that when they first Molly was there, they they they called her a mature mother Molly, the three F. And so um she ended up uh uh um you know, kind of looking down her nose imperiously at them. And that's I find that very funny because of who Molly became. But um yeah, the the hype thing, it was horrible through, you know, she was supposed to go to debutante balls and all of that, and she would end up going in the bathroom and in a stall and reading her book. So it made her incredibly self-conscious until she ended up, you know, leaving home, leaving her family and going across the country to Smith, where she really wanted to get out of Texas, where all she found out was everybody talked about the weather and football. And of course, when she went across the East Coast, she thought that it was going to be totally different, and she was hoping that they would, you know, have more in-depth conversations and this and that. So, yeah, the height thing, it was interesting. Once she really owned who she was, she became she at Smith she was, you know, she wore the pearl, she had the cashmere dress, all of it. But even then, she was she was always bucking, she was always, you know, she never could fit in because when she went to Smith, she was look because she counted over everybody. There's a there's a great picture of her at Smith where she was like the the the the the the RA, so to speak, of a residence hall, and it's all the girls, and she's standing on the ground and she's as tall as the girls like in the back row. And it's like she looks like the matron. It's the ki it's kind of funny. But at um, you know, at at Smith she she found that sh they were looked down upon her too, the East Co East Coast Knobbery, because they felt if you were from Texas, you know, you gotta be, you know, you know, twenty percent dumber than everybody else, because it was just this sense that, oh well, she's from Texas. So, um, yeah, height height always played a role. And then of course she used it uh to her uh, you know, to as she gained confidence in herself and really became got her voice going, it was a thing that, you know, people would Molly would walk into a room and all eyes were were on her. She was gorgeous, she was six foot tall, red haired. I mean, um Terry O'Rourke, um, who is the the Harris County second district attorney, was um one of her ex-boyfriends from the back in the day, and he described her as a young Jackie Kennedy. She was stunning. You know, she was really, really stunning. And she went toe-to-toe. She could go toe-to-to-toe with with the guys, and they respected her. She could also drink some under the table, too, and then remember everything they said the next morning.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Well, that's quite a strategy. So she certainly she devoted herself to her career. She was really passionate about what she was doing. And although height may have been a factor, there there was a line in the movie I thought was interesting, which was that um half of female journalists are single. And um, you know, it does seem that a lot of professional women whose careers go far are single, and I just wonder if you had any comments about that.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

Yeah, then actually I I got off the track a little bit, my apologies. Yes, in terms of of yeah, Molly, Molly had she had lovers, but she was very, very private about it. And she was really, I think, married to her career. And I also think there was a deep sadness in Molly, a loneliness that she would never really talk about. I mean, she drank, she was a high functioning alcoholic. Uh but um she I think made a choice, and I think there yes, I think there was a I mean, I know there was a deep loneliness in her. She loved family, she loved kids. I mean, she was Aunt Maul to so many friends, kids, she put them through college. I think um I mean, from what her sister and her friends told me and her brother, you know, I think she had that fantasy when she had this one man that she was madly in love with uh that she met in at Smith named Hank Holland, and uh he suddenly passed away. I'm not gonna give away how you can watch y'all can watch the film. Uh, but it it I think she kind of at that point she kind of packed that up. She had this fantasy that she if they were the brightest, the best and the brightest of, you know, Ivy Leaguers, he was a Yaley, she was at a Smithy, they were gonna get married, they were brighter and smarter than anybody in the room, they were gonna have four children. I think she she definitely had that fantasy, and when he was gone, I think she tucked it away and never went back to it. And her life took a trajectory that was all her own, but it didn't include a husband and children. And I I think she I think she would have loved to have kids, um, for sure. But uh yeah, there was a d a a deep loneliness and sadness in her that she never really went into.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

So Well, thank you. That's that's uh um uh you know, a very helpful explanation. Could you tell us a little bit about her relationship with her father?

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Her relationship with her father was such that um hang on, is that are you hearing my dog bark?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

We are. We we are hearing your dog. Is that a problem? Well, it's live radio, so it is what it is. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Right. No problem at all.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

You might even hear you might even hear my cat meow in the background sometime, so So, um yeah, so her f her f her father, the general she dubbed him the general, General Jim Ivan. Uh he was six foot four. stunningly handsome and hence the name. Um he was a corporate uh lawyer for Teneco, Gas and Oil, Teneco Inc., and he was he was also a competitive sailor in in in the in terms of like Olympic competitive sailor. So Molly was his first mate. Everything was run as in ship shape order and she bucked against her father completely. What he said, and you know he was a conservative. He was a conservative Republican. They went toe to toe and terrible fights and and and I it's interesting. I found in the archive at the Briscoe which houses the Briscoe Center for American Studies at UT houses her papers. She had notes that he had written her like that were like probably on the kitchen counter. She still had them. She went toe to toe with her father and I do think that is a deep rooted uh link to her going toe to toe with all her b bosses and the patriarchy of the male patriarchy of the workplace. Definitely rooted to her father. And I think that her whole thing of of going after you know speaking truth to power was about speaking truth to her father. I mean if I'm being you know kind of you know pop shop uh an an analyst but i I think you could really tie it back.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah that's very interesting. These days do you think a reporter especially a female reporter could function the way that she did given the way that social media has made it easier for people to attack others with differing viewpoints?

SPEAKER_04 23:44

I think say repeat that question to me one more time.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Well the question is do you think she could uh these days do you think a reporter especially a woman could function the way that she did given the way social media has made it easier for people to attack others with differing viewpoints?

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Hmm it de okay so I think I think that it's it's harder in a certain way because we're so polarized and because everything is is so instant. Now if it was Molly Ivans doing it, I think that people would go after her but I think she would have a strategy. I think for reporters these days I I here's the thing I think you are who you are. You are s if you are of that person of speaking truth to power no matter what you're gonna still do it. And there are reporters who are who are doing it who are booths on the ground. Look at what's going on in Ukraine. And it's not just it's not just the you know the voices I mean I I I'm blown away I mean I you know Jane Ferguson they're out on the front line they w are doing what they're doing. I look at all the women who are on PBS news hours news hour they are speaking their truth yeah people are going to come going to buck up against it that people you know Molly used to talk about the polarization about how people would get so angry that they're they would just bristles and until their she used to say their turkey gobbles would shake back and forth. I think that it's I think that for all because with news if it bleeds it leaves. That's still there. People run with the negative first and I think that there's a whole host of uh journalists who are using social media to their advantage and they're there the I think the the good news about it, there's the good news and the bad news. The bad news is the polarization and the instant you know shaming or trying to shut somebody down at the other time is that you can reach so many people in such a short amount of time and wake them up. So it's a double edged sword. I think that you just you know I think there there are women who are doing what she does. Um they have to you can't stop you know I can it's social media it's like it's good and bad as we all know. It's a great distraction at the same time you know where do we get news first? Where does the news come in first? Twitter You know which Elon took a s a a seat on the board.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Oh actually although it's off topic I I heard that he didn't take a seat on the board because um that would limit his ability to possibly do a uh uh you know overtake the company by getting more than fifty percent of the stock but off topic but anyway I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you funded this movie. It's you know as an independent filmmaker this is such a challenging thing.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Tell me about it. I mean we documentary filmmakers I think we're we're slightly insane. I mean people don't understand how you don't I mean make money what? There's there's like there's like the the the ten to twenty people who get all the gigs and then the rest of us yes it's like a pyramid like a pyramid. And so it's it's um it's hard. I mean people make documentaries because we have to there's there's stories that need to be told. And and finding the funding is that is one of the biggest challenges, hurdles of making a dock. It took us uh six and a half seven years to make Ray's Hell the Life and Times in Molly Ivans. And when we started out so my producing partners are James Egan and uh Carlisle Vandervoert who is the native Texan she's the authentic Texan and actually grew up in River Oak and went to St. John. So had a very similar trajectory to Molly and comes from an oil and gas family. So um so we three partners partners as Molly would say we three partners uh ponied up the first 10K out of our own pocket to get started and we got the green light I think uh five weeks after no three weeks after seeing the play I did a bit of research was on a plane two weeks after that so what total of five six weeks later and we did our first round of interviews in Austin. I went to Car Carlisle in Houston and uh we uh drove to Austin and we did the first six interviews and then we held a fundraiser um one of those interviews was the great Jim Hightower and we held it in his office which is a church which we call the Church of Hightower and through Molly's you know once we got the green light from Betsy Moon Molly's chief of stuff her gatekeeper and Molly's uh uh the manager who ran her estate and she left her estate to the Texas Observer and the ACLU we got a green light uh everybody started to spread the word and you know as warmhearted big hearted Molly Ivins w is and was so are her friends and so every door started to open to us so the word spread we're doing a fundraiser at Jim Hightower the Church of Hightower and so we raised that I had a I had a sizzle I did I have a no I didn't even have a sizzle yet I just had Carlisle and I and our personalities and our passion and um we raised$17,000 uh that first literally uh out the door so that gave us some money and um and then so that's what we would do. We would go we did a fundraiser three months later in Washington DC where uh we did three more interviews um one was with her her creator her her columnist her column was edited by Anthony Zurker for Creator Syndicate and we interviewed him we and we interviewed her dear friend Myra McPherson another female journalist who came up the same way Molly did um who's written a number of books and then um we did Kathleen Turner because she was in the play and we did another fundraiser in DC and so that was kind of our trajectory uh for about a year and a half um people would hear about it and sometimes we would get mostly we would get you know and we were on we were on uh Facebook I had like I had gotten us 200 followers because Molly most of Molly's constituency were more Facebook types Instagram wasn't even happening yet um and then uh around 20 I did another round of interviews in 2013 and you know money came in you know we were also sponsored by the IDA we had a fiscal sponsorship through the International Documentary Association so money came in that way as well and we applied for grants thank you Carol Dean was the the one and only grant we we got which was wonderful and uh that helped us out and then we ended up uh James in 2014 right before he said I I I needed to pay my mortgage I was I was used to be a showrunner for series and stuff and I stopped doing that and um he said uh I I need you to teach a class up at the Academy of Art University in San Francisco and I said uh really I I'm I'm not gonna pay a professor why he said no no no I just need you to teach it's an online task it's in social media marketing and entertainment I said I don't know anything about social media and marketing and I I'm a filmmaker. I'm a filmmaker I'm a show what and he said you're a producer you can you just look at look it over the online course and go for it and I did and I had a ball doing it it was a actually it was a lot of fun. A year later we launched our Kickstarter campaign. So technically I started teaching to pay my rent and I did this course and it basically I got taught and we did a successful Kickstarter campaign where we raised we blew past our goal of$75,000 in the first 10 days and we raised$126,000 plus and that really was incredible. And the thing that and then also the other thing that I will mention is six months before we no but yeah six months before we launched it we we met this woman named Gerald Jagoda who I call who was our social media producer back then I called our our social media maven and she looked at our Paltry 200 people and she said no no no no we're not going to release this campaign for another like five months. We need to build up your social media and Molly had a constituency so Gerald set about doing that with at the time her partner Gretchen Landau and um you know Twitter but mostly Facebook because Molly's constituency is that age and she we have over I don't know twenty four thousand followers and it it just it really built built it up and so when we launched the Facebook thing I also I had done a documentary on Jackson Brown called Jackson Brown Going Home and he's a friend and a deer and Bonnie Ray it and so we Bonnie Rayett knew Molly so Bonnie ten days into it tweeted about our Kickstarter campaign and overnight we got like$22,000. Ma uh the same and also Bonnie's friend and Molly's best one best friend Annie Lamotte the writer did the same thing it was all coordinated and she posted to her thousands upon thousands of followers and we got another like$24,000 in a 24 hour period. That was extraordinary and Jackson the same thing same idea. So that helped and uh and then that was it. I mean we we tried we knocked on doors we did the the the the Carlisle and I went all over doing our dog and pony I literally a year or so after we got started in 2012 I had a sizzle um and that was a funding cut and then I had a sizzle that uh basically didn't change for six years. It was the same one. And that's what we did. That was pretty much how it is and we had some angels who came through set we had many I have several stories about angels who just suddenly came through for us. And uh yeah so that was that's that's how hard it is and then this is amazing we found out we were in Sundance this is incredible we found out we were in sun dance the week after the 2018 elections um where a hundred and one freshman congresswomen uh became freshman congresswomen 101 women and um so you know Molly is this kind of the timing was unbelievable uh we found out a week later or three days later we were in Sundance and we only had twelve thousand dollars in the bank and we had this was November 18th and we had to have our DCP at Sundance by January 24th. Uh oh we had to find some cash to be able to finish the film and two angels came through and got us across in two and a half days one decided in an hour and a half and the other two days and we we had the funds to get us across the finish line.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Well I'm so happy it came together for you I I do want to circle back you mentioned that you got the grant from from the heart and um as was mentioned at the beginning of the show I I also got that grant for my film and it was very special because it was the first funding that we got after many years of working on the film. But I bring it up because so many documentary filmmakers do rely on grants which are challenging to get and lots of paperwork. But something that I I feel is very unfortunate is that a lot of the larger grants for documentaries they they don't support biographical films. And it's it's sad because women's stories have typically been emitted from the history books and you don't see too many statues of you know powerful women and things like that. And so it's it's just another um thing that makes it harder to share their stories with a wider audience. So I'm again I'm glad that you found other strategies and you were able to make it happen. And I wonder if you could tell us where can we see the film now it's you know it's played festivals already so where's it screening these days?

SPEAKER_04 36:22

So you can see uh Rays Hell um if you have Hulu you can watch it um if you have a subscription otherwise you can you know it's on every platform you can rent it and it it it keeps going it keeps people Molly is uh is evergreen she's relevant. Things that she said you know like I said you know what is it 15 10 years fifty fifteen years now 20 30 years are happening right now. You can watch it via Amazon uh Apple uh uh voodoo uh you can go to www.mollyvansfilm.com and uh it's it's uh it's part it's our our site with Magnolia Pictures which is our distributor and they have a listing of all the places that you can rent it and most recently it aired across the great state of Texas I shouldn't say great state anymore um but it aired across Texas uh it still is great for those people who are fighting the good site and um you they showed it uh uh in honor of Women's History Month uh it was aired on March 28th across the uh the entire state one place one time um and they had never done that before so that was pretty wonderful and we've gotten a big surge because of that and now we hear more PBS stations want it. So we're hoping um that at the end of the year I I believe we'll our contract with Hulu may be up and then we will be uh hopefully finding homes elsewhere for m for Ray Tell. But it'll definitely be able to be rented from now until whenever because Magnolia has it and it's it's out there.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Terrific that's great. Um Magnolia also has the Kusama film so once again we're we're uh in good company and I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what you're working on now.

SPEAKER_04 38:32

Well right now I've been it's funny I had a couple of things I was really I was working on when Molly we went through the the whirlwind of 2019 and 2020 and thank thank you Molly that we premiered in 2019 because I know how difficult it's been for our fellow documentary filmmakers or any filmmakers for that matter um in light of the pandemic which started at Sundance squeaked through but after that for two years it's been very very hard and um to to that and also to have the festival experience and and all of that. That said I I had some things I was very interested I was interested in. I wasn't going to say very and after the seven years of doing MOLI um as well as teaching uh it was and then the pandemic the pandemic gave me the uh I want to say the opportunity which is a blessing to kind of step back and really assess and I cleared my plate. I just I got off things I was attached to. I said I've been working so focused and so everything is um you know what's the next what's the next I kind of just emptied out because I have to make room for whatever is next to bubble up and there are two things two what the big theme for me is our shared humanity but there's also something else that's been bubbling another thing that you know so I'm looking at the themes and but emotionally as well as deep, deep themes that keep bubbling up for me. And I have a couple of things that I just now am starting to get that feeling. Like the feeling I got when I decided to do raise hell. So I'm just gonna I'm following my instincts and I don't really want to talk about them because I feel that kind of jinxes it. But Yeah I feel the same way but I had to empty out and just like I just focused like right I'm focusing on teaching. You know I have a full load this semester at the Academy of Art University. I teach documentary film I teach editing I teach writing I teach all sorts of things you know I teach about you know young creative minds you know how how to uh um you w you go into the creative arts, you know I always say there's the three Ps, you know patience, perseverance and passion. And the biggest question if you want to make films or anybody anybody anybody wanting to do anything, how curious are you? I ask my students first day of class, how curious are you?

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Well I think it's important to touch on just how these big projects that are you know independent films that are so hard to fund, they they are really they take a lot out of you even though you know it's our passion to tell these stories. I I wonder if um there's anything I didn't ask you about that you would like to share with us.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

Uh no you've asked me a lot and I hope I didn't get too off topic because I can do that. I don't mean to I just get go into a a a kind of a a free flow. You know I I just uh one thing one thing I will say to the listeners is um it's something I teach or just it's not even teaching is sharing. That's all I do. I'm a big sharer. It's all in the sharing um I wanted to say that every creative project has its own life's breadth and you have to allow it the room to expand. You know it's not on your time but its time. And we really had that I mean I directly had that experience when making Molly every time I tried to push and Carlisle and J tried to push like we have to get it we have to get it done because this is going to happen or you know like we have to get the get it out for the midterm election we would get we would it nothing would happen. But as soon as we stepped out of the way and particularly me it would flow right through. So it became my thing to say you know I'm not driving this bus. Molly is Molly's driving the bus and I'm just blessed to be on her ride. So you gotta every creative project has its own life breast. You gotta birth it and let it breathe and it will if you get out it's like getting out of your own way.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

It does it you've created it it's a creative entity it does have a pulse but sometimes we get so focused into we've got to have this and we've got to have that we we lose sight and so you gotta that's why you empty out that's why I have emptied out you have to allow the mood oh I wanted to ask right before the show started you mentioned you had a story about biographical films. Did we cover that or was that something you wanted to share?

SPEAKER_04 43:26

No so this is one of the things I always tell but here's another thing tips to give documentary filmmakers follow your instincts why first thought best thought so first thought best thought um uh think about when you're a kid and you're doing you know multiple choices and you you circle one or you fill in those little dots and they say you go back, they say no that's not in you erase it and then you pick something else and nine times out of ten, it was it's wrong because it was your your first thought best thought it was right. So um James and I, when we first started doing this, we went to I, you know, because I had been a showrunner, I had connections with certain media companies and I went to certain um executives who shall remain nameless. And uh and everybody would say, Oh my god, I love Molly. Everybody knew who she was. I love her. Oh, we'd love to find this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then two out of three, something like that, came back to us literally with it's a biopic. And she's dead.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Well, I certainly managed to make it work, and people certainly line up to watch shows about Oh, I just want to say about okay, you go. No, go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say people line up to watch shows about you know, Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana, and they're they're long gone too.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

No, so so what ended up happening was James and I got like spooked so biopic. So then I spun for I I two years thinking it can't be a biopic, and I basically came up with all what's the structure, what's the structure? I mean, I was so tortured, completely tortured. Finally, I got together with Kate, the great Kata Mend, who you know very well. Yes, I love Kate. We love Kate. And she looked at me over a cup of coffee, and I, you know, was telling her this. And she looked at me and she said, Janet, what's wrong with the biopic? And it's like she like unleashed, it's like she unleashed me from my own self-imposed, you know, torture chamber. And in my brain, it just went, click, and I looked at her and I said, nothing. And all of a sudden, it was like I she she it was it was the right time. What I it was K. I got on the plane, went to the East Coast, and on the plane, I jotted down the structure, just poured out of me. I got out the plane, I looked at it, I got to where I was going, and I said, Wow, that's great. That looks so familiar though. Now I always take pictures of my structure board, my my index card, and I went back to the first one I had done in 2012 and 2013. That is exactly the film that you see uh today, except for maybe two or three more things that I added into it. So first thought, best thought.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Well, there you go. We need we need more people to fund biographical films about uh women, whether they're living or dead. That's that's exactly I think that's what we could say for sure. So uh for anyone who would like to follow your career, I would like to give you the opportunity to share your social media handles with us, whether they be personal or for the film, and also your website.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

So, okay, so my website is down and it's been down literally since the film came out because it was on an old platform and I didn't have time to redo it, and I really two years. I haven't it's been crazy. So I'm in the process in the next six months of redoing my website, so sorry about that. Um you can IMDB me, but you can follow me um at J E at Janeth. What is wait, what it was my let me I'm on Facebook, I'm Janeth Engel, I believe. You can just, you know, friend me or try to. I'm on Janet Engel. There's also Molly Ivens has her own page on Facebook. And um I am also on Instagram as Janet Engel, J-A-N-I-C-E-E-N-G-E-L, No Spaces. Um, same thing on Twitter. I don't do Twitter so much because there's only so much, I have only so much bandwidth. Um, but Molly's certainly on there. And uh yeah, that's it. And I I am yeah, I'm on yeah, Facebook is the same thing. It's just my name, J-A-N-I-C-E, Space E-N-G-E-L. The website is www.mollyisfilm.com. And um that we're also on Instagram that way as well.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Well, terrific. And I know you've you you know you've had a long career and there's so many other things we could talk about, but we're running out of time. And I just would like to ask Claire if you had any final question to ask before we close out the show. Oh, I guess we're not hearing Claire, so uh she may be unmute. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

Sorry, I I had it muted, I'm so sorry. I almost just taste my cat now, you know. So yes, I uh great interview, lots of good information. I feel like um every time a filmmaker tells their story, there's something always new. There's always a new gym to learn from. And I love how you start out your classes with what are you curious about? You know, what how about this curiosity and what it does? I learned a lot. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I'm glad you were on the show today.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. I it's always so strange because I like to have conversations, so it's a l if I go into a run-on, I I I just, you know, it's because we're not it's it's it's hard. I like to have the back and forth, but I I enjoyed it and and Heather, I'm a huge fan of your film, and we can sidebar about it. I have quest so many questions. Again, I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Thank you so much. That's so kind of you, and it means so much to me. So thank you, and thanks to everyone for listening. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

Thanks for having me, be well, everyone. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Bye. Okay. Bye. Be well, everyone. Now, in its second edition, Carol Dean's popular book, The Art of Film Funding, has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer, how to make an ask for money, create your story structure and your trailer, legal advice, fair use, successful crowdfunding, how to ask for music rights, and what insurance you can't shoot without. Available on Amazon under Carol Dean and at FromTheHeartProductions.com. I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra. David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story, please contact him at Davidrakeland.com. That's david R-A-I-K-L-E-N.com. And Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at FromTheHeartProductions.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films, everyone.

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