Shoot right for Editing and what brings an editor to the film party?

Join Gael Chandler to learn much more from her new book Editing for Directors - a Guide for Creative Collaboration.To learn more about Carole Dean and From the Heart Productions please visit www.FromtheHeartProductions.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Love Holmes Radio.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Hi and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Gail Chandler spent over three decades in Los Angeles editing comedies, dramas, documentaries, features, corporate videos, and promos. She cut on every medium, film, tape, and digital, and trained hundreds of professionals, professors, independent filmmakers, and students to operate digital editing equipment. She was nominated two years in a row for a Cable Ace Award for Best Editing of a Comedy Series. She also taught classes on editing history, theory, and practice to CSULB, C S U L A, AFI, and UCLA students. She continues to lecture periodically at her local media center. Chandler has authored four books on film editing, Cut by Cut, Editing Your Film or Video, and Film Editing, Great Cuts, Every Filmmaker and Movie Lover Must Know. And the book we are discussing today, Editing for Directors, a Guide for Creative Collaboration. And Carol, I see that Gail Chandler has the same publisher as you.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Yes, Claire. Gail is published by Michael Weesee Publications. It's a wonderful company to work for. And Gail, thank you very much for joining us. It's lovely to be here with you and Claire. Good. Well, I love your book. It's an inspiration. And in the introduction, you say that this book helps you make your way through post-production and it tells you what to expect from an editor. Whether you're directing your first show or have many or few shows under your belt, you'll discover how editing, like the rest of filmmaking, is both mundane and magical. And I like to think of editing as magical, Gail. Editing can make or break a film, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:44

It certainly can. You can help good or great footage shine as an editor and help the director that way. And sometimes, many times, you can also make sense of a floundering story or save a performance or interview. But if the script wasn't there, if the footage isn't there, and or the director refuses to see it, there's only so much an editor can really do. It's really all about the respect for the film and what it's trying to say, as well as the director's vision, um, which can change or evolve during editing.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Wow. Yeah, it's really about the respect for the film and what it's trying to say. Wow, that is so important. Uh thank you very much. What I've never heard anyone express it so clearly and succinctly. That's very true.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Uh I mean editors are uh say they listen to the film. You know, they don't have all the they don't know what went on on the set, um and and that's part of um what's their m what their value is.

SPEAKER_04 4:01

Yes, I heard that one statement. Uh throw out your darlings. Whatever might be special to you is doesn't always affect the audience the way it affected you. Because maybe something happened on the set that made that a special moment. But that uh is something you have to learn to get rid of, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yes, you know, I I hate this phrase, kill all your darlings, but um you know, sometimes the very reason that you make a film or shoot a film doesn't end up in the film, um, because it doesn't work in the larger context of the documentary or the fiction piece. But you just have to accept it that it's slowing things down or doesn't work for one reason or another, and just thank it for getting you to where you got to. That you got you know, and it's all a journey, you know. I mean a lot of things are cut and dry, but it you know uh you know, you'd think episodic TV would be, but even that changes. Um even when you have a very set script and set show, stuff happens.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

Stuff happens, right. And it's up to the editor. I guess you're what you say it'll listen to the film and uh hear if it's needed or not uh to make a decision whether you leave it in or take it out. Well, so what we want to cover today is how to plan for editing before you shoot a frame and discuss what to look for when you're hiring an editor. We want to know about the skills uh that an editor brings to the film and how an editor approaches the footage and puts a show together. So let's get started with your first chapter, which is shoot, ride for editing. And please share some of the brilliant advice that you give us in this chapter.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Well, the first chapter is really about shooting for post-production, shooting for editing. And it really recognizes that the director is thinking about a million things on set, but the goal is to get the best shots to tell the film's story. And um really when you're shooting a film, you're um you're creating the raw material that the editor will need and use to create your picture. You know, there's the saying in the film industry, there's the picture that's written, the picture that's shot, and the picture that's edited. And a lot of times they're pretty close, but usually small things change, go in, go out, move around. Um, so in this chapter, I go over how to avoid the pitfalls, and don't so you don't have to pay extra in post. And some of the most important things are number one is don't cut in the camera. Don't assume that everything you shoot will play in the master. Get coverage, and that means reaction shots, reverses, close-ups, two shots, overheads, inserts. At your peril, avoid if you do not get coverage, it's it's at your peril because when you go to the cutting room and you want to bridge, say, a master, or in a documentary, you want to bridge an interview, you're gonna have to manufacture it then or just have a have a boring section in, um, which you may lose your audience. So coverage is key, um, especially um reaction shots out of all that, because whether it's a doc or fiction, reaction shots show human emotion, and they are gonna key your audience how to about how they react to the speaker or the actor. Um so in addition to don't uh you know, another reason for not cutting in the camera is you really wanted to leave it you really want to leave it to the editor to do the cutting and the editorial process to do the uh pacing of your show.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Uh secondly, um I would say uh sorry, did you want to say something, Carol? No, I that makes a lot of sense to me. Leave it to the editor. You just keep shooting, get all the well, like you're saying, all the coverage, close-up overheads, coverage, shot, all the shots you uh can think of, and then let the editor uh set the pacing and cut the shots together. Right. I think that'd be the worst thing you could do is to uh for the speed for the money, get the money involved and say no we have to cut now and we don't have a and go into the editing room with not enough coverage to for that special scene. Every scene has to have its own pace and rhythm, I have found, just as the viewer, uh you know, the and there are certain directors that you find yourself holding your breath through the whole scene because it's so tense, right? And that's that's what the editor wants to do, I would assume.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Um yeah, our our um our mutual publisher, Michael Weasy, uh one of his films he did in very low light, and he didn't know if he had anything, and he was he was going into places, I believe it was in Thailand. Um he was going into temples where he had no permission at all. So he didn't know what he had until about two weeks later and he got into a hotel room, and he actually had a a short documentary. He had a movie, and I don't know if you were there at the screening, is this probably 15, 20 years ago, but he it was a it was a lovely little film about his experience. Um and um but what he said was he didn't know what he was doing, but he had the experience to go. Every time I go into a place, I'm gonna say beginning, middle, end, beginning, middle end. Because you do run out of time, you can't get all the shots that you want, but you want to plan for the coverage and get as much as you can and know what you're gonna need to tell the story. Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

That's right. Oh great, okay. Well, I loved when you talked about match eyelines, because I um have a lot of films apply for my grant, and uh w and a lot of them are documentaries and and it's different. Every interview is different, you know, and and it's sort of a jerk when you are sitting watching an interview and and the eyelines switch and the uh w the the head is up above or down below or it it moves all around. Uh that is distracting to the viewer, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yes, I mean eyelines are critical um in fiction too, because if I I have an example in the book of a father and son, um this from um Moonlight, and um the kid doesn't hasn't seen his father or this male figure, I forget if it's exactly I think it's his father. Anyway, um he's looking down the whole time, and that says something about their relationship. Um and so it's it's important to shoot, you know, what would be a child's eye line, an adult's eye line, when they're looking at each other, when they're looking away, it all tells you a lot.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Right. That's exactly right. Okay, well uh let's talk about the misconception of editors from your book, Editing for Directors, chapter two, and then tell us about the uh editor as a creative artist. That's really important.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Great, great question. Um the main misconception is that editors take out the bad bits, and they're technicians who mainly who just assemble the footage. And the reality is editing is like the rest of filmmaking. It's both mundane and magical and artistic and technical. An editor is not just a technician that takes out the bad takes, um, but really like everyone else on a film, ideally an editor is a collaborator who has a unique role on a show. And the three uh roles, the three main roles are the editor is really a writer. The real way to think of an editor as the is as the final storyteller. And they're composing uh not with words on a um like the screenwriter on a computer or with a camera, but they're actually composing with the uh the uh the raw material, as I mentioned before, the picture and the sound. And um I also alluded to this. This the second key role uh uh unique um um facet that editors bring to a picture is that they don't participate in the shoot, and this means that editors have an objective eye and they are not married to um what happened onset or what's um you know uh that critical darling that may have to be killed. Um they're gonna, you know, serve the story and the film the whole way. And uh and and their third unique role is that they're really standing in for the audience. They're seeing the film like a uh an audience would see it, and everything is new to them. They haven't shot the film, they haven't read the the screenplay, the audience hasn't. They're s what they're gonna see is is what gets put together in the editing room. And they don't really care how long it took to get something. They might be interested about a film about the film, but um basically those are the three uh key roles of an editor.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Wow, that's great. I remember a story um of Cassavetes and he um he had a screening, I I don't know which one of his films, but he had a screening and he uh he and Peter Falk watched it and he said, What do you think? Peter Falk said, I loved it, that was a fantastic edit. He said, Well, I'm glad you loved it, but I'm scratching that and I'm starting all over tomorrow. I don't like it, he said. You're never gonna see that again, he said, and he went back to work. He was uh uh quite a producer, he kept editing until he got the story he wanted.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Yeah, and he's left us with a lot of great work. Okay, so oh my gosh, uh the uh the best thing in your book, I had to copy and send that to a lot of friends, is your editor's prayer. Would you share that with us, please?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Sure. I just made this up. Okay, the editor's prayer. Our perfect director who aren't who our perfect director who art in heaven, showered with Oscars be thy name. Thy lifetime achievement will come, thy will be done in the editing room as it is on location. Give us this day our dailies on time, and forgive the missing footage as we also forgive the person in charge of continuity. Lead us not into frustration, but deliver us to the talented director, for ours is the splicer, the mouse, and the objective eye. Forever. Amen. Rewind.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

That is great. Thank you so much. Uh now let's talk about editing for documentaries. Uh, where you may not have a script, but you have a bunch of great interviews. How on earth do you pull that together?

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Well, it's it's it's interesting to work on a doc as an editor because a lot of time you're the initial shaper of the story. You don't have um a script, and you may not even have an outline. You may have to make up the outline yourself. Um, which is, you know, part of the uh to me the joy of editing. And it's like writing, Carol. You know, you're ordering stuff. And um you may, you know, you may throw it all together, but then you get to make order out of chaos, make a story out of it. And um documentaries would include reality shows, uh, by the way. For those of you who watch that, them, they're basically a a form of a documentary. Um, they're unscripted. Um so um, you know, in a documentary, it's really up to an editor to make sense of the interviews, decide which ones to tell, which experts you really need. Now, the producers and the directors would actually be, you know, have interviewed all these people, but you'll if you're collaborating you have a good collaboration, you'll all will see, or you can be the one to say, this you know, we we really, this other person really said this. Do we need person B? And and you'll be making sense of what's i uh uh and talking about what needs to stay and and and be moved around. Um and and what I wanted to say, my latest documentary is that I'm um I'm gonna watch is maybe you just need cows. Um there's a new documentary that came out just about cows, um, and it's it's shot from a cow's point of view, and it has no dialogue, it's just done with sounds and very little music apparently. The music is source music of somebody has a uh one of the cow uh owners has a has a has a radio in the barn. And um so I'm I'm interested to finish seeing it. Oh, that sounds great. And and it's the radio in the barn that it's the source music. That is great. Yeah, I mean my friend who saw it said when they went in, she felt so bad for the cows because it's this blaring music, and here they are used to munching on them in the pasture. Um the last thing I also wanted to say is as an editor, um you you have I I I believe this very strongly, and when I taught, I would tell people, because I'd seen people not do that, do this. And um that is on a documentary, you have to faithfully faithfully represent each person and what they said. I I don't mind pulling out uhs and ums to um present their viewpoint um better and more quickly, but you have to truthfully show what the person said or interviewed. You can't cut out little bits because you didn't like that or you want to show them up as a jerk or whatever it is. You have to have high integrity in um documentary.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

Yes, that's very important because I think documentarians are uh our current researcher, investigative journalists, because we have so few now, that you really have to trust your documentary films to give you both sides of the information, let you make a decision. Or that's what I uh that's where I look for, what I look for in the doc.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yep, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

And the but the biggest problem I see uh is that filmmakers underestimate the cost of their editing. They put together maybe twenty-five, thirty thousand dollars for editing, and then they get in the edit room and realize that there's a lot more to it than they realized, and it's sometimes double or triple what they thought, and they run out of money, lose the editor, who then goes and gets a long-term job, and when they get the rest of the money, the editor's not available. So I advise documentary filmmakers to over budget for editing, have the money in hand, take a deep breath and work with the editor and get the film right uh and know that you have the money in the bank and you can don't have to lose that editor because then the new editor has to come in and start all over, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah. I agree with that. And it's part of respect for the whole filmmaking process is not just say, oh, well, we're gonna get it right from the beginning. We're gonna have the right outline or script, we're gonna have the perfect shoot. And even if the even if those two are absolutely true, even in editing you have to respect the editing part because that's where you're really putting it together. And you're really, as Didi Allen said, that the buck stops in the editing room. And you have to honor the fact that maybe it'll all just cut together like butter, but most of the time you're gonna, especially on documentary, stuff isn't gonna work. Um it's gonna be out of focus or that you're gonna have problems with the audio, and you're gonna just have to take a lot of time to make sure all that hard work that you put in really gets on the screen, and that means spending time and money in post.

SPEAKER_04 21:40

A lot of time and money. I I don't know what the budget was for Summer of Soul, but that was so well edited. I was amazed how that that went it just seen it just flowed. There was a wonderful pace to it. Uh and it and the information was coming from all different sources. So they uh someone was a genius, uh in my opinion, putting that together. Have you seen that?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

No, it's on my l list. It it definitely is in my queue on my on my uh TV. Yes, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Well, yeah, you had a wonderful chapter on the history of editing. It was really enlightening to see how it all evolved and when the first editing started. So you must have done a lot of research on this chapter. So tell us about it, please.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I did a lot of research and I also I I highly recommend this. I had taken trips to um Thomas Edison's studio in West Orange, New Jersey, and the Lou Mir Brothers studio in Lyon, France. And they were just uh as a filmmaker, it was just a thrill to be in both places. Um I wrote this chapter because I thought it was really important for readers to understand the revolutions and the evolutions of editing technology and tools. Um and I, you know, the chapter was I think is really fun. It's it's it's like I call it a world gig ride that spots lights key frames of the journey to today and to our ever-changing digital world. I mean, you see how often the technology would drive things. I mean, Lucas, George Lucas said 50% of art is technology. And it changes how you shoot if you have a digital camera or a film camera. Um and um I use a lot of photos in this chapter, and so that it's not just tell, but it's show, and I do that throughout the book. But um I think most importantly, the history chapter shows people how um important the role of editing has been in the development of the language of cinema. Um about how moving images and sounds from the very beginning speak to the audience. I mean, people didn't understand what close-ups were, and now I mean we have no problem with flash cuts, smash cuts, uh uh, all kinds of close-ups and digital manipulations. We get it, we understand that. Um I also include the the current research on AFLs, um average shot lengths, and as you might all guess, they're getting shorter. And they're shorter with action films than they are with um dramas. Um and I the so I think I also believe that editing mimics thought. So that's why we we breathe with it when we watch something on a screen, because it's mimicking how we think and and how our dreams are and how stuff can jump in, and and it it somehow it makes sense to us when we're watching it, when we're when we're experiencing it.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Yes, yes. How um how thoughts and dreams can pop into your mind. Yes, I love it when filmmakers do that to you. You know, that you're watching a film, then the next moment they're dreaming and you're in the dream with them, it really takes you closer to the essence of the film. Right? That's great. Yeah. Okay, so um now, let's talk about chapter four, what to look for in an editor. This is really important for our filmmakers. So if you could share some of your advice on finding and hiring an editor for your specific film.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Well, whether you're a director who gets to choose your your editor or you're assigned an editor, um unless you have a previous relationship, you can be nervous to share your baby, your film, with an editor. Even if you know the editor well, maybe you know, like Catzibettes, you have some doubts. And um so um you want to find somebody that you can trust because the two of you ideally are co-parenting this film to delivery. Um so when you're looking for an editor, you want to choose somebody that you can collaborate with and who you trust to support your vision, which may change, over the course of editing. Um you want to fight, you want to hire somebody who will fight for the story all the way and does not have their ego in it, um, but they want to make the best film and and serve you. Um and also you want to pick somebody who's a problem solver so when you do um have issues um that they will um the person will have some ideas or be willing to experiment. And you know, one of the things I've seen in life is you look like you you like look at a painting, you you look at Saison. And when I was in France, we went on a tour, and you just see these beautiful delivered photo paintings that he did, and then you find out 90% of them he destroyed. And you don't you know, and we see like Summer of Soul, and we see movies like that, and you and they are they're they work and they're terrific, and you just don't know how much pain, probably, and time and hard, hard work went into creating those. And um so you want the the editor's the person the director's gonna spend the most time with. Um unless it's an exceptional shoot like Apocalypse Now that goes on for a year, but even then editing went on for two years after that. So um you want to pick somebody that will go the distance with you and that knows the post-production process and the digital editing system and the technical mundanities and can get along and supervise an editing crew.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Right. Well, problem solver, very well stated, because instead of just throwing your hands up and saying, Oh, I can't work with this, there's too many problems, they uh it's getting into the nitty-gritty and talking to uh the sound editor to see what they can do to fix it, or the color guy, or somebody. There's always someone that can help with the bad shot, but uh but is needed for the film. And fight for the story. What a great concept, yes. That's what the original thing I thought was from the director to tell a story, and then everything else seems to get in the way. And all the ideas from everybody come along and the editor's trying to make everybody I mean, sorry, and the director's trying to make everybody happy and g then gives all this stuff to the editor who is trying to decide where what is the story. And um uh Fernanda Rossi is a woman I really respect, and Fernanda uh tells filmmakers to um c clearly state the story, clearly define what this what is the story and have that in front of you in just a f couple of paragraphs when you're editing so that you can quickly look at the story and then say, does this is for documentaries, does this move the story forward or not? And that's and then it's a yes or a no. It's quick to make an easier decision uh once you have the true director's vision in front of you. So it's uh it is the most important person, I think, that you hire, and they really have to see your vision and help you achieve it.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Yeah, and I I I had an experience as a I worked as a producer on a documentary this year that didn't get into production, and the story was the issue. The two pib people who were executor producers and the subjects could not agree on the story, and it folded. And it was it was a lesson.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Oh my gosh. Isn't that interesting? I haven't heard of that one.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yeah, it was hard. It was I I mean I had not been a ever been in the producing role, and I just saw I had the most utmost aberration now because uh for me it was a stretch and I wanted to do it, and I you know, I learned and I grew and we had a great core team, but it was hard. It was a lot of work.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Oh, I guess so, right. Well, um I wanted to talk about w exactly what an editor does, and going to your chapter five and editing for directors, uh, because there's so many different cuts, I hear them say, I have a rough cut, I have a first rough cut, I have a what I think is a semifinal cut, I have a final cut. Um so maybe you could talk about those different cuts and what the editor does for us.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Well, um the rough cut is the is also known as the first cut or the assembly, and it's what the editor puts together. Um and they're really the first ones to see the the show put together for the first time. So that's exciting, but you're also um if you're working in um on a movie, you're serving the director. If um if you're working in TV, it's actually the executive producer that would have the final cut and that role and the vision of the show. But initially you're cutting even in TV for the director, and then they have their cut. Um and what was the other part of your question?

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Um what does uh what an editor does, it's their job to just keep taking away what doesn't tell the story, is is that it?

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Well, the the the editor has notes from the director, hopefully, and a script or and for a documentary and outline, and your job is really to absorb it all and um bulk the story out of it. And you know, you you work with performances, you try to make um, you know, you look at different takes uh of an actor and you pull this line from here and that line from there, because it all adds up to um the the character that you're building. And they may have gotten it one way and one take and another way and another take, and they all they work together instead of just sticking with one take. Um you you often find that that it will be over several takes. You'll take a look from this one, a line from that one, and so forth.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

But you are building the character for us. I never thought of an editor as doing that. Um That's right. Good. All right, well, let's talk about editing rhythm.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Just what is editing? Well, Corsesi likens editing to music. And if you think about music, it has fast parts, slow parts, intervals, pauses, um, it builds the crescendos, it descends, and and really a movie, a do you know, any kind of movie, documentary, etc., uh does that too. And so the rhythm is really is technically the duration of a cut, how long it lasts, and the number of cuts in a sequence. So you could have a few long, languid, lovely cuts, you know, floating down the Thames, or you could have, you know, many short, rapid cuts of uh going white water rafting somewhere. Um rhythm is also the pace of the cuts. And like it's like music, like I said, and what I like to say is some scenes are going to tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Others will tick, tick, tick, and still other scenes will tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

So that's that's rhythm. That is rhythm, yes, like tick tick boom. That yeah, that was well edited too.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yes, I you you um I I would love to talk about that at some point when we if we talk about the Oscars. Yes, yes, we will.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

I'd love to get into that. Um well w I wanted to talk about that scene in Jaws that Verna Fields edited because I jumped out of my seat uh and I think everybody in the theater did too. So what other edits do you remember that made a noticeable effect on the audience?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Well, I will talk about them, but I I I wanted to say about the Verna Fields. Um he uh uh you know Spielberg and Verna went to her pool and recorded some of the the shark jumping out of the water there. And he said Yeah, she really saved saved the timing of that, and then she unfortunately died of cancer a little bit too young. But um she um he said you could have a shark jump out of the water for I think it was fifteen frames, and that was perfect. But seventeen frames, he said, and I quote, it looked like a giant turd coming out of the water. So it was really timing, timing, timing, timing, because the eye would make it into something else if you went just even a couple frames too long. So um so that you know you just never know what goes into stuff, and the stories are are great. Um but yeah, as far as um cuts, I think you know, people uh uh often talk about the famous match cut in Space Odyssey where the pre the bone goes up from prehistoric time and transitions into the um spaceship in modern times. So in one cut you're you're crossing time and and and space. Um but for me uh it it is sort of like music and watching a movie. I'm not picking out the individual instruments, I'm not picking out the cuts, except at certain points. Um if I fall out, I pick out the cuts. I tend to do that in the beginning. But most of the time I'm seeing everything. Um and to me, really the cuts I remember the most are the reactions. You're on Meryl Streep's face. Um, and as I always say, her face is worth a thousand lines of dialogue with what it can say. Um, and or any good actor. Um so that to me, the cuts that bring the emotion, that where you see um uh uh an person being interviewed in a documentary um talking about their life, that that's what sticks with me more than um you know other kinds of cuts.

SPEAKER_04 37:55

Yeah, the cuts that bring emotion, right.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

Well, um I see that Thelma uh Schoenmacher works most of the time on Scorsese's films, and I was wondering how how does he arrange to have her on all these films? Because uh uh working with documentary filmmakers and trying to help them find editors sometimes, the editor's a book for a year, 18 months on projects. So uh uh and I know he he doesn't wait for her, or I would think not, so he must arrange do they coordinate on the sh shooting of the film or the timing so that he gets her? How does that work?

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Well, I think they're both really lucky because they found the person and they married them. It's a film marriage. You know, and and the people like to say it's a it's a marriage in the cutting rumor. I like to say it's a short-term affair. Hopefully a good one. Um but um yeah, I mean uh she waits for him, he waits for her. And you know, they're they're of they're in the stratosphere as far as editing and and directing. So they do everything together. I mean, I'm sure she's part of the planning, part of the you know, she sees very early scripts. Um, I mean, I think they have a personal relationship outside the the cutting room. Um, and I think that's what a lot of directors and editors want is that one person that they can keep doing stuff with. Um but you know, unfortunately, everybody has to work and a project doesn't get greenlit, so you have to take something that maybe you didn't want to take, but you gotta, you know, you got you don't know if this great project is actually gonna come through. And then it comes through and and what do you do? Break up with the person you're with, you know. It it it it's a it's a tough for everybody. Um and I think the lucky people get lucky editors get to work for two or three um or maybe even one director that they really like and and they they know they work well together. And uh but yeah, it's hard to it's hard to to make it all fall in place at at every level, you know, you know, not just editors but cinematographers and actors and everything.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

To get the whole gang together, yes. I see that um uh Woody Allen does that. He's got the same group most of the time. Uh so well I let's talk about the Academy Awards now for editing because it's a lot of fun. It's coming up soon. And this year we have Dune, Don't Look Up, King Richard, Power of the Dog, and Tick Tick Boom are all up for editing. So um why do you think these were chosen? And what do you think is outstanding about their work?

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Well, I I have to admit I have not seen all of them or I've seen parts of some of them, and I've certainly read about all of them. Um so my assumption is that they're all very, very well edited. Um one of the adages is it it about judging editing is you just never know what somebody started with. You know, they could have started with great footage and they just, like I said earlier, made a chine, or they could have started with a mess and it's amazing that it got to where it got to. Um so you don't know how much um and they're all good, they all add up to a great story and good editing, and it tends to be editing um, you know, if it's a it's hot picture, the editing is is um often recognized. Um but for me of of the five um that are nominated for editing, I would um pick out tick-tick boom. Um and tick-tick-boom, if you don't know what it's about, it honors um Jonathan Larson, and he was the um playwright who created Rent and other musicals. And and unfortunately, in his all-too short tick-tick-boom life, he he died at 35, I think it was, the night before Rent premiered. So he never got to know after his years of hard work that it was gonna pay off big time and he would have really had a career, um, a longer career. Um but um so that's part of what this what I like about this movie is the subject of of how hard artists work. I I just finished uh Stephen Sondheim's 1998 official autobi uh biography, and it, you know, the the man worked day and night for years and years, and he was a genius, in my opinion. But it's as you well know, Carol, there's so much hard work that goes into filmmaking, and uh it's not all going to award ceremonies and losing or whatever, or winning. Um but the other thing that I um uh a couple of other things about tick-tick boom that I think are outstanding, and I don't think it'll win necessarily, but um that it got made and that people will see it is is is great. Um I think it's very hard to shoot a musical. Um I I went to a seminar at the TV Academy quite a few years ago, and they talked about a lot of directors can shoot a lot of stuff, but shooting a musical is hard. Um, it's a stage show that you have to give life to. Um and I think Tick Tick Boom is very aucurrant in the way it integrated um song and dance numbers and the narrative. I thought it was brilliant. Um I thought West Side's story is brilliant and it should win, but it probably will not. Um for the same reason. It's a master uh study in filmmaking and that means in touching people and talking to me talking about current life and what's going on in our country. Um and more specifically tick tick boom intercut documentary style footage with the drama and with Larson's dreams in an intelligent way that trusted the audience to follow the story and care for this um brilliant um person. So that's my vote.

SPEAKER_04 44:33

Yes uh I loved it I loved that film. I didn't think I would. You know sometimes you think what is this? Uh well I can how can this be so good? Uh is it worth my time and I was I was mesmerized from the first few seconds. I was totally engaged in that film and um they developed the character so well. You really felt the guy's uh passion and determination and uh his commitment. It was fabulous. But you see I see that all the time Thelma I mean we just had a holiday here. Filmmakers didn't even act like there was a holiday. I had calls on the weekend. I definitely they went back to work on Monday. They didn't they don't take any time off. They are dedicated, committed and uh I don't even think they know what day it is half the time. Right?

SPEAKER_02 45:29

It's one day I mean when I used to teach it I'd I'd say I mean maybe this has changed but I used to say the film industry doesn't care if it's your birthday or Martin Luther King's because you're going in. And I mean that's when I was working strictly Hollywood and you know you you got on a show and you're working five to seven days a week. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

They don't know they don't care. They just are committed. I love that part about it. Um well I'd love for you to tell us what you can leave us with for advice on filmmakers and directors when and particularly when you're hiring and working with editors.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Well my my statement would be that um it's a marriage or rather a short term affair as I said and you really want to hire an editor you can trust to co-parent and deliver your baby.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

Right. So it uh uh communication going out to meet them sitting and talking with them showing them some of the film uh i i deciding uh d do I get along with this person that's the main thing because if if it's a marriage you have to respect each other uh and like each other so those are very important things to take into consideration uh now please tell us what you're working on now you've got an exciting life with all this b these books and your teaching and everything else well Michael Weezy our esteemed publisher said write your book for where you want it to take me take you write your book for where you want it to take you and I've never known where I wanted it to take me frankly I just wanted to write it and and and help people um and but what each book has led to um has been another book and I really love writing as much as I did editing and I've always thought each book was going to be my last one and um another book keeps falling in place.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I'll uh Weezy came up with this one actually it was his idea and I I hadn't done a book in over five years and suddenly he gets that email from England. But anyway so that's what's happened now. A mutual uh hiking friend um uh connected me with a woman and a subject I never thought I would be writing on and it's part of a series of books uh about preaching and ours is going to be preaching and filmmaking. And as a non-Christian I never thought I'd be writing anything that had to do with f preaching but it's liberal Lutherans and I love the work they're doing in the world and and I love this per the person that I was connected to and was a stranger a few months ago. We're just collaborating it's really uh the it's really not this it's a real collaboration. It's been fantastic. And um so this is uh this book will be about how um film uh storytelling techniques can help preachers better connect with their congregations and tell whatever story they're telling that uh Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Oh how wonderful. It's all in the stories. I can remember stories from you know from classes I went to or s seminars much faster than I can remember the rote one, two, three, don't forget four, etc Tell me a good story and you can carry it for years. And that's that's wonderful. So yes you're teaching preachers how to tell good stories to connect to audiences. That'll be wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

I mean she she teaches she's a preacher but she's also a homiletics uh professor and I didn't know what homiletics meant until a few months ago and I found most people don't and it's the art of preaching and that's what you have seminary for. And and students love it when she she she says okay exterior uh Jerusalem day I mean she puts in the the scene description lines just like in a pla a screenplay. Um and so that's um part of a little part of what we're gonna be do talking about. And and um is Michael publishing this? No, this is a a different publisher this is a um John Westminster Knox in association with the Perkins uh Center of Preaching Excellence and they're at SMU well John Westminster is I forget in Michigan um but no it's um you know and we we also I wanted to make this for rabbis and and other religions but it the the the language doesn't work and the publisher said no this is the book no we want. So um yeah so no it's it's my third publisher and so it's a it's they've been fantastic to work with so far. So I'm really really glad.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Oh wonderful oh I'll be I look forward to hearing more about that. Please when la come back on our show and let's talk about it when you get ready to publish. That'd be wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

I would love it. And you might want to include the co-author too um or not. Yes but she's she's very interesting and um you know we've had some great religious you know I'm an atheist she's clearly not so it's been it's been quite a little collaboration here.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

I guess so that sounds wonderful. Well now I uh tell us how we can reach you Gail please um the best way to reach me is at my home email at this point which um is gnovato1 at comcast dot net and so gnovato is g-n-o v number one at comcast.net gnovato one at comcast.net okay that's fabulous well thank you very much for filmmakers I'm thanking you from all of us for the book you wrote because it certainly has so much information, so much education. We s you got I love the history and how important that is to understanding where we started and where we are now and uh all of the technical aspects and the understanding that you give us for the hard work and the magic that comes out of the editing room. Thank you so much, Gail. Well thank you this has been a real joy. Good. All right well best of luck this is a marvelous film.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

I just want to get the title for everyone Editing uh Editing for Directors uh a guide uh finish that for me it's a guide for editing for directors a guide for creative collaboration creative collaboration which is filmmaking that's what it is all right thank you so much best of luck okay thank you Claire Sure you're welcome be well everyone and thank you Gail take care everyone thank you Bart okay bye bye all right bye bye now in its second edition Carol Dean's popular book The Art of Film Funding has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer how to make an ask for money create your story structure and your trailer legal advice fair use successful crowdfunding how to ask for music rights and what insurance you can't shoot without available on Amazon under Carol Dean and at FromTheheartproductions.com I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story please contact him at davidrakeland Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at From the Heartproductions com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films everyone