Filmmaking Duo Sabine Krayenbühl and Zeva Oelbaum reveal a forgotten female innovator in their new documentary, Obsessed with Light - Hosted by Heather Lenz

Our special guests today are the award-winning filmmakers Sabine Krayenbühl and Zeva Oelbaum. Sabine and Zeva co-directed the NEH supported documentary Letters from Baghdad, which was edited by Sabine and produced by Zeva. Letters from Baghdad screened in the US in over 70 venues and was broadcast on PBS, ARTE and the BBC. Sabine’s numerous editing credits also include the Oscar and Independent Spirit Award nominated My Architect, for which she received an American Cinema Editor’s Eddie Award nomination and the Emmy-winning The Hunt for Planet B. In addition to producing Letters from Bagdad, Zeva also produced Ahead of Time, a feature length documentary about journalist Ruth Gruber, which premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival before garnering six Best Documentary awards. She comes to film from a career in still photography and her work has been published in periodicals such as The New York Times Magazine. Her photographs are also in collections such as the Bibliothèque nationale de France, The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston and The Brooklyn Museum. Today we will discuss Obsessed with Light, a documentary about Loïe Fuller, co-directed and co-produced by Sabine and Zeva.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Today we are joined by our guest host, filmmaker Heather Lenz, best known for directing and producing the Sundance documentary Kusama Infinity. Our special guest today are the award-winning filmmakers Sabina Kryenbull and Ziva Olbaum. Sabina and Ziva co-directed the NEH-supported documentary Letters from Baghdad, which was edited by Sabina and produced by Ziva. Letters from Baghdad screened in the U.S. in over 70 venues was broadcast on PBS, ARTE, and the BBC. Sabina's numerous editing credits also include the Oscar and Independent Spirit Award, nominated by My Architect, for which she received an American Cinema Editor's Eddie Award nomination, and the Emmy-winning The Hunt for Planet B. In addition to producing Letters from Baghdad, Ziva also produced Ahead of Time, a feature-length documentary about journalist Ruth Gruber, which premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival before garnering six best documentary awards. She comes to film from a career in still photography, and her work has been published in periodicals such as The New York Times magazine. Her photographs are also in collections such as Bibliothèque Nationale de France, the Museum of Fine Arts Houston, and the Brooklyn Museum. Today we will discuss Obsessed with Light, a documentary about Loey Fuller, co-directed and produced by Sabina and Ziva.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Well, thank you so much, Claire, for the introduction. And thank you so much, Ziva and Sabina, for joining us today. For anyone who hasn't seen Obsessed with Light, Ziva, can you please tell us what it's about in your own words?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Sure. Obsessed with Light is about Loe Fuller, a remarkable American performer who was born during the Civil War. She worked with Buffalo Bill and then she transformed herself into the toast of Paris by creating a totally new spectacle that combined dance, movement, light, and fabric. And she merged her art with technology in such an original and innovative way that she continues to influence contemporary artists. Our film is a dialogue between the past and the present. And we interweave Lowy's story, archival footage, and contemporary interviews. It's really a meditation on light and the obsession to create.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

And with Lowe, after Letters from Baghdad, which was about Gertrude Bell, who was a British explorer and one of the key architects of the modern Middle East, we decided we want to do something that had to do with the arts and was visually really exciting and and and um moving. And so I had edited a documentary called Picasso and Brock Go to the Movies, and it was about the early inf the influence of early cinema on Cubism. And in there was uh you know a film of the serpentine dance, which all which was quite astonishing. It was in color, it was what one of the few films in color, it was hand-tinted and it was absolutely beautiful. And so we were we were both mesmerized by it and decided to look further into like who is this person? Who came up, you know, who is behind this amazing dance that became an iconic image of early film.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, and for anyone who doesn't know, the serpentine dance, uh, as you'll see when you watch the film, was the creation of Loe Fuller. And I had seen this clip too, but I have to admit, I hadn't really given much thought to who this person was. So it was super exciting to learn about her in your film. And I'm wondering, Ziva, if there was anything you wanted to add about uh the film or that last question.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Well, when we started to research about uh Louis Fuller, what really struck us was the number of references we started to find among contemporary artists. We like in immediately sort of saw a reference to her work with Taylor Swift and William Kentridge and Alexandra McQueen. That was right off the bat. So we said to ourselves, there's really something here when someone from a hundred years ago is still so present in the creative landscape.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, I I agree with that. And certainly in the end credits of the film, um, there's a lot of references that I found really interesting. And I'm wondering, Ziva, how did the two of you divide up the work that needs to be done to make a film? And what unique strengths do you feel that you both bring to filmmaking?

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Well, we met on the film Ahead of Time about Ruth Gruber, uh, which you mentioned that I produced, and Sabina edited that. And what we, I think what drew us to each other was that we share uh a common aesthetic. We both love archival footage and we both love the same clips. So that was really sort of fundamental uh to our partnership in the very beginning, and it's a great place to, it's a great starting point for our projects. Our dividing up of the work um was a very, it's a very organic process, and it sort of evolved really naturally without us having to talk about it. Um, as you mentioned, I came to filmmaking from uh being a still photographer, so I'm very connected to the stills that we choose, and I'm very comfortable with Photoshop, and so that sort of came in very handy. Sabina is very um connected to music and really um very aware and uh has a very beautiful sense of uh choosing music, so she was very connected to that. And as a producer on a previous film, I'm comfortable with paperwork and grants and that sort of thing. And obviously, Sabina is an editor, so in addition to her fantastic editing, she knows all the technical aspects of the footage. So, so things just evolved in a very natural way.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

And um, Sabina, did you have anything to add about that uh last question about how you know you divide up the work and and your different um you know strengths that you bring to filmmaking?

SPEAKER_03 9:49

No, I think Ziva uh you know touched on everything. One thing I was gonna add is that we are both very hands-on. And so we end up actually covering way more positions than the ones that we are bringing to the table because we're doing everything. It's we're really like a two two two women crew, and you know, so so aside from you know, just producing, you know, producing it, the creative aspects and everything, but we are also fundraising together, and we're you know, we're you know, helping, you know, we're working on um the outreach, and we are we really are sort of like reaching, we have many, many arms.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Well, it's very impressive. Uh, you know, I I um I love your work, so it's exciting to be able to talk to you today. And Sabina, I'm wondering if you could please talk about the process of finding archival materials, particularly about this film about Loe Fuller, and if there were any surprising discoveries during your research that changed the direction of the film.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Sure. Um we, you know, for us, it's really important that we uh use primary source material material. So aside from the archival footage, which we look around all over the world, we've over the time, you know, of having already worked on several um archive-based films, we have made connections to archives all around the world. So we reach out, first of all, to all the archives that we know. We also sometimes work with an archival producer, Judy Ailey is one of is the one that we've been working with frequently. But we also have our own connections. And so we try to look for archival footage that in one hand, on one hand, is very directly related. So let's say in the case of Louis Fuller, we look for early dance, or you know, or we even keep, you know, send out the keyword Lowy Fuller or serpentine dance or whatever, but then we also obviously want to create a context of the time. And so it brought it, the keywords get more and more, and we also sometimes are our films are also sometimes informed by what we find. You know, some of the footage we came across are is just so astonishing, and you know, certain certain shots we like, we feel like we have to get that shot into the film. So so we it sort of goes both ways, but then we also look for primary sources, let's say letters and documents, and we reach out again to archives around the world. We try to connect to the biographers, we try to um, you know, especially with the NEH, we we work with um advisors. Um so it's really a very um very diverse kind of outreach, but at the same time also very detailed. I mean, we sort of don't leave any stones unturned. We really we have also always a desire to find that, you know, where is that footage of Lois Fuller herself dancing? Well, we haven't found it because as you might have recognized in the film, every single serpentine dance is one of her imitators. And in some cases, we did find things. So uh Ziva, maybe you can tell about our surprising discovery at Maryhill, which was really quite astonishing what we found there.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Sure. Well, we we went out to Maryhill Museum on the West Coast, um, and because Louis Fuller was one of three people that founded that museum, and they have quite a wonderful archive of her materials, and we did see a bunch of cassette tapes in a plastic uh grocery bag sort of on the floor in a corner of where the drawers were that held her materials, and asked what that was, and were told that those were interviews that had been done of Louis Fuller's original dance troupe members by Margaret Hale Harris, um, who was doing a biography on Loe Fuller. These were interviews that had been done in the 1970s, and they were so wonderful that they allowed us to take the cassette tapes. You know, these were really from the 70s, old cassette tapes, and we had them restored, which in some cases actually meant being baked in an oven. I don't know how that works, but that's what one of the restorers told me and transcribed, and we were able to get Buttercup, one of Lloyd Fuller's actual dancers, into the film. And that was super fabulous and exciting.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Well, I do have uh one question about one of the archival clips in this film that I was just blown away by. It's early in the film, and we learned that Loe was a child, child performer, and there's this like just insane footage.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Yes, I know, I know which one you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Well, let me explain it for the audience. A child on top of a hot air balloon dancing. I mean, this is like definitely before helicopter mothers, right? I mean, was that really her? And either way, I mean, that is just like mind-blowing. So, any uh is there anything you could share about that?

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Well, that uh that was one of those clips where we said, this is insane, but it totally, it totally shows her character, and we gotta use it. So, so it you know, and and that's often how we work with the material. It's not like we are trying to do one-on-one. We're trying to create a character with the archival footage, and and that, and that that character can be created with movement and actions and and gestures and everything that you know from different people, you still get the full image. So this was one of those films and uh film clips. And I believe we got this from the view uh from the University of Southern California. Well, and so that really holds her then. Oh, sorry, University of South.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, yeah, it's not Louis Fuller. It's not, it's not Louis Fuller, no, it's some other fearless child performer.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And I'm sorry because we were all talking at once. Where did you say the clip was from?

SPEAKER_03 17:05

It's from the University of South Carolina.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Um, it's certainly mind-blowing. So, um, so moving on, Ziva, if you could have coffee with Loe Fuller and ask her anything you wanted to, you know, yourself instead of relying on archival interviews. Well, what would what would you love to ask her?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I would really be interested to know what motivated her and what kept her going. So so I would really would say I would really ask her, what what's the secret? What was the secret for your perseverance? Because it was she was someone who um just took she she just took perseverance as that's just how you live your life. You don't take no for an answer. I mean, she was very unusual in that way as a 19th century woman to be so um so uh assertive, assertive in what she wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, she certainly was the quintessential girl boss for sure. And um, Sabina, is there anything you would love to ask Louis?

SPEAKER_03 18:27

I would ask her, are you still mad about Isadora Duncan? I see. She was she was, you know, as as you know from the film, she mentored Isadora Duncan and really launched her career. And and then when Isadora sort of got, you know, got to have success, she dismissed that Lloyd Fuller even existed, or even, you know, who she basically didn't know who she was as. And so I I always think um this is something that is so key about her, also, like how she worked with you know with with people around her. I mean, she was very interested in in she was very good in finding uh people that were either very creative that were, you know, that could help her in terms of creating her own spectacles, or it was just uh she had a she had a sensibility for people who who were doing unusual things. And Isadora was certainly someone that that she saw had a potential for doing unusual things.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Well, I bet I could answer your question, and I bet she'd still be mad. But I guess we don't know. So um, Ziva, you you did a crowd campaign to help fund this film, and I'm wondering if you could please talk about your experience with that, including the pros and cons and any other behind-the-scenes information that you believe may help other filmmakers.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yes, we did uh Kickstarter campaigns actually for both Letters from Baghdad and Obsessed with Light. And it was a very positive experience in both cases. And in fact, for Obsessed with Light, we uh you know, we really valued the ability to build an international uh base for viewers and potential audience goers and people that were interested in the film, uh, you know, in helping make the film happen, but in also being um there to anticipate watching the film in the end. And so the our, you know, we definitely needed the money, of course, when we did it with Obsessed with Light, but we also saw other value to doing uh crowdfunding. But the thing I would say is that you have to be very willing to do quite a lot of work. You have to have content available that you can send out weekly um during your campaign. You have to have, you know, interesting and intriguing uh rewards for people that donate. It is a very work-intensive and time-intensive process. So you sort of have to understand that challenge before embarking on it. Because if you you know, if you devote the amount of time that it requires in our experience from our films, we really reaped the benefits, I think big time in in addition to the money. I think for letters from Baghdad, it was a different it was a different time. And doing Kickstarters was a little bit more unusual. I think we must have done it in 2015. Um and our goal was$58,000 and we made$90,000. Um for Obsessed with Light, we wanted to be a little bit more modest, and we did that campaign in 2022, maybe, or maybe I think, and I think our goal was like$25,000 and we made$40,000. So there are many benefits, but the but the challenge is you really need to have people and assets and uh ready during a campaign.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yes, I've heard uh from everyone who does these campaigns, it's just a tremendous amount of work. And Sabina, what other strategies did you employ to finance this film? And how uh and did you face any challenges convincing funders to support a film about? A lesser-known figure.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yes, so we also applied for grants, and uh amongst them was the uh New York State Council for the Arts, and of course the uh National Endowment for the Humanities, which is also a big um work, you know, work have work-heavy application, but worthwhile, especially for documentary that have to do with historical topics and that are sort of films that you would think are you know are made for PBS. Now, our challenges were in both cases, just like you pointed out, uh, it was about two women uh who were not known. And we literally had um broadcasters tell us that um if you have to Google this person, we can't we can't do it. So it's and and I think the landscape has changed and has become even more difficult. Um you know, in terms of distribution and finding sometimes, you know, you are you you you bring your distribution in up front. We were lucky in that we were in both cases able to sell the film and in in Lois case co-produce the film to Arte uh ZDF Arte, which is a German French art channel that is basically covering all the German and French territories in Europe. And and that was, I think, is a uh, you know, that's and it's also one of the highest paying um broadcasters, international broadcasters for art films. But but it is it is a challenge, and now the challenge is even worse because uh, as we know, the National Endowment for the Humanities is um under attack, and so is PBS. So I am hoping that other people step in. Um, we were able to also get funding from Artemis Rising, which is a fantastic organization that funds also you know, challenging films, but also films by women. So um, yeah, you will you have to look everywhere basically nowadays. It's really, really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Well, yes, that's certainly true. So many uh paths to distribution have collapsed recently, so it's quite sad. Um, after finishing the film, Ziva, can you please talk about your experience sharing it with audiences at film festivals?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Oh, well, that is it's such a highlight, you know. We sort of live for those experiences and those Q ⁇ A's because people, the film resonates in such a strong way with the audiences, and we get really interesting questions and they're thought-provoking, and we love the energy, you know, that's generated from the film. It's it's a great springboard for a lot of different topics for conversation. And yeah, it's been we've had some fabulous, we've had some fabulous experiences all over the world. Um, and we've even done uh we did uh we've even done virtual Q ⁇ As um and trying to remember oh in be in Beirut. I think we did that was a virtual Q ⁇ A for Obsessed with Light, I believe. They also screened Letters from Baghdad several times. So I want to make sure I'm not mixing that up. But that, you know, that's a really special experience when you can do something in a uh virtually or in person in another country.

SPEAKER_03 27:34

And also just to add to that is the fact that you're seeing it on the big screen, which also is you know challenge a challenging uh thing to do to bring a the uh film to the theater, and the festivals really allow for people to experience it on the big screen. And in the case of Obsessed with Light, it's key, it's just such an immersive experiential um film that to be there with an audience in the room in a on a in you know, in front of a big screen is just fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

And um Sabina, did you work with a sales agent? And if so, can you please talk about that process? And if not, can you please talk about the steps you've taken to get the film out into the world beyond film festivals?

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we act we worked with uh an international film sales agent called Outlook. Um, they're specializing in documentaries and um, but they also have some fiction. But uh and they helped us. We had at the point that they um that they came to the film, we had already, you know, gotten Arte on board, but then they helped really sell the film. They do they work both, they work the festivals and they also do the sales, and so they sold the film to various stations around the world and and got us into other international film festivals, and then in the US we uh we started working with um are um I'm trying to remember now. Did we start with before film movement that uh it was see what remind me what was the RJ?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

RJ Millard.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Yeah, yes, exactly, RJ Millard. Uh he helped us with festival, with some festivals, and then also um broker the deal with uh film movement, which was which took on our theatrical, US theatrical, and also our you know, um basically US and North America. And they have uh also helped us got get it into some other festivals, but mainly they are, you know, they were looking to help us with the theatrical, which we actually had a fantastic theatrical release um starting. It started in December of last year and it went all the way into January and February, and it's still actually showing in some places.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Well, congratulations on that. That's a huge accomplishment. And um, Ziva, previously you co-directed the film Letters from Baghdad with Sabrina. It's already come up a few times during this um conversation, but for anyone who isn't familiar with that film, could you please tell us what it's about and how you found out about the subject?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Sure. Uh Letters from Baghdad is about Gertrude Bell, and we were very fortunate actually to be able to have Tilda Swinton voice Gertrude Bell in our documentary. Um Gertrude Bell was an amazing woman, also a 19th-century woman who was an adventurer, an archaeologist, and went out into uh the deserts in Arabia where no one had gone before, and done maps and learned um the Arabic, uh learned the Arab languages and the dialects, and spent a lot of time with the tribes and photographing. And she was asked to be a part of the colonial office first in Cairo in 1916, and then after World War I in 1918 in Baghdad, and she spent 10 years in Baghdad um helping uh helping draw the southern borders of Iraq and forming incredibly close relationships with the Iraqis, and she was the liaison basically in the colonial office between the Iraqi people and the British administrators. So she was very held a very interesting position. She was very critical of the colonial uh administration policies. So she was sort of an insider and an outsider at the same time, and she was an amazing letter writer. So the film is uh based primarily on her letters and other primary sources from her colleagues and family members. Um, we actually started thinking about the idea because both Sabina and I had read a uh wonderful biography of her by Janet Wallach called Desert Queen. Uh and first we thought about doing a narrative film, and then it came to light, funnily enough, that both Werner Herzog and Ridley Scott simultaneously were going to do feat narrative films about Gertrude Bell. So we felt, yeah, I think we should stick with a documentary format. And then uh Ridley Scott dropped out, and Werner Herzog made his narrative feature film with um uh kid Nicole Kidman. So uh it was it was quite interesting. Gertrude Bell was in the air, you could say.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

I wondered about that because oftentimes um documentaries will come out about someone interesting, and then it seems like a year later there's a there's a biopic. I sometimes feel like um uh the narrative uh film directors go like shopping at film festivals for ideas about films to make, but it sounds like this was already in the air, as you said. But um Sabina, what did you learn from co-directing Letters with Baghdad that informed your approach to making Obsessed with Light?

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Well, we in both um films we were, or let's say we started when we when we did Letters from Baghdad, we really wanted to tell the film through her eyes and with her words, with Gertrude Bell's words, and transport the viewer into that time period. So it was really the archival material that would bring to life what it was like, what it was like to be there. And so what we learned is that we have very high standards for archival footage. We often get material sent to us that is really not very good, but that has incredible, you know, has an incredible scene. And we try to find and track down the negative, or we try to find when when there is just an SD transfer, we really are you know looking for the best possible picture quality that we can get. So that was something that we discovered working at with letters from back that that there is this possibility that there are negatives around that. If you ask the archives, if you dig, you can you can find them. And in some cases, you know, that I mean that that sort of was our approach in terms of the archive. But the other thing that we learned was dealing with uh Seba already mentioned in in terms of um letters from back that we had Dillas Binton voice, Gertrude Bell. So we learned and we we we figured out how to work with talent to bring a person to life that's through their own words. And so in the case of Loy Fuller, we got Cherry Jones to be the voice of Loy Fuller, and it was very helpful from our previous experience with Tilda, the how we were going to discuss it and work with with Cherry. And I think we in both cases, I think we got the perfect person to embody our heroines, and so that was definitely something, you know, and that's and we sort of learn to to create a style. Uh we sort of, you know, we have a style that we adhere to and that we really try to uh to feature with our documentaries.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

And um, Ziva, although both of the films you've co-directed feature female trailblazers, you opted not to include their names in the titles of your films. And I wonder if you could please talk about that decision.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

That was a very easy decision because no one ever heard of Gertrude Bell or Lloyd Fuller. So it was so so including their names was not, we do have their names in subtitles, but we wanted to come up with names for both films that were evocative of what the film was about in the broadest possible context. And um I think we succeeded in both cases. You know, whatever image that might be, whatever image that could be, and then to understand that it's about, you know, the true story of Gertrude Bell, you know, and the Establishment of Iraq or Louis Fuller, the you know, creative genius of dance, uh, you know, something like that. But we wanted the titles to be to encompass more than and and also the other thing is that neither film is strictly a biopic. We're particularly obsessed with light. Of course, it is about Loe Fuller, but it's about much more. And and the same goes for Letters from Baghdad.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

It's it's actually interesting. Uh, I just want to add to that. What's interesting is that often enough broadcasters then tend to add the title. So in both cases, uh, with Arte, they changed, you know, they not only did they have to change the title to be in French and in German, but they added in both cases the name of our heroines. And I think it's uh and it's the same with um PBS, where we sold letters from Baghdad too.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I see. And Sabina, can you please talk about the process of getting letters from Baghdad on PBS? And at what point in the making of the film did you know it would be on PBS?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

We found that that out very, very late. In fact, we pursued PBS like I don't know, for over a year, I think.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Like three.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yeah, well, yeah, from the moment, let's say from the moment that we are actually went out and and in and did festivals. I'm yeah, we've we've we pursued them before too. But from the moment that the film was done, even at that point, we like pursued them for a year uh or longer, and and it just needed time. I mean, it needed, you know, I think in the case of um Letters from Back that we worked with Susan Margolin, who uh came on board and who has um a lot of um experience with distribution, and she helped us get it in front of the right people. We met, we met uh some people at PBS who had to do with Iraq, so it helped that there was a connection in terms of their their experience, you know, of of the territory and the knowing the history of Iraq. So they knew about her, but it was still an uphill battle. It was really like a relentless pursuit. Um, and we ended up having a broadcast, but also it went to basically stream on PBSD.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

I would just add that I think the final thing that made a difference for PBS was our box office numbers because we had self-distributed a theatrical release and done very, very well, and especially well for such a niche uh film about someone who's relatively unknown. And I I'm pretty sure that that was the final nudge that uh that allowed them to green light it on PBS.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Well, that is really helpful insight to hear about your experience. And Zeba, what advice would you give to first-time filmmakers?

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Well, uh my advice would be be uh very um knowledgeable about the challenges that you're going to face. Um, and just because you're going to uh you're going to face challenges doesn't mean you're not going to do what you want to do. I mean, we definitely, I think Sabina referenced this earlier, you know, we were told at the at the beginning of Letters from Baghdad by someone by a British broadcaster at the very start of that project. Okay, why would we do a film about someone who's just a footnote in history? Well, it turns out she wasn't a footnote in history, and it turns out we did broadcast on uh BBC, and you know, so just sort of understand that what people are buying tends to be celebrities and true crime, but that does not mean that you shouldn't do what you want to do if it's not one of those two things.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Well, that's great advice. And um, Sabina, I'm wondering if there's anything that the two of you are working on as a team um currently um that you would like to share with our audience. I know sometimes people have projects in uh going on projects they're working on, but they're not ready to share yet.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah, we are we are at the moment just still in the process of you know, sort of getting obsessed with light to the end. And so that's taken up a lot of time, and we at this point are you know looking around and and looking looking for other possibilities, even though we have a big list, but you know, it's uh there's all these different different things matter, and also in our current landscape, we have to you know take that um in account. But one thing I just wanted to add in terms of also advice to young filmmakers, it's really be, you know, I think what's important to know is that you are your best salesperson. Even if you get a sales agent, even if you, you know, even if you make that step, you are still the best person to talk about your film and to really get people excited about it. The the passion that you show and the passion that you bring to the table in your discussion with distributors, with you know, with broadcasters, with anybody that you want to get excited about your film, that's really key. And it's important that that young filmmakers know that they, you know, that they're they it's in their hands and that they can do it.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

And for anyone who's interested in seeing either Obsessed with Light or Letters from Baghdad, Ziva, can you please tell us where people can currently find these films?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yes. Um for Obsessed with Light, people could go on our website if any. And right on the home page is a link to the streaming services. There's stream, it's streaming, I think, in uh iTunes and Amazon Prime and several other streamers. Our website is obsessed with light documentary.com. Or you can go to our distribution page. Our distributor is filmmovement oneword.com and check for obsessed with light. And in terms of letters from Baghdad, they're on we're on the PBS site. It's also iTunes and Um and Amazon Prime, I believe. And you can also get it, you can also rent it from our website, which is lettersfrombaghdad.com.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Well, thank you so much. And um, Sabina, for anyone who would like to follow your career, um could you could you please share your um social media handles and and um websites, you know, also for yourself?

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Um uh well uh I um I think the best way to reach us is via our websites and you can write us to info at obsessedwithlight documentary.com and um and you can find us on Instagram and also on Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

In Instagram, it's I just looked at it, it's Lowy Fuller Film. So that's the at at Lowy Fullerfilm.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Thank you. And Ziva, is there anything else you would like to add that I haven't already asked?

SPEAKER_02 47:09

No, I think you've been very thorough.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Thank you. And Sabina, is there anything you would like to add that I haven't already asked?

SPEAKER_03 47:17

No, no, it was absolutely a pleasure talking with you, Heather.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Well, thank you. It was my pleasure, and I again I loved um seeing your films. They're you know, it's amazing work and always great to see uh films about um, you know, female trailblazers. So thank you so much for sharing them with the world. And uh again, thank you for taking time out of your schedules to join us today.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Yeah, you're welcome, and thanks everyone for listening.