Brace for Oblivion: Filmmaking on the Frontlines with Xackery Irving

“Inside Ukraine’s war zone, a filmmaker captures courage, chaos, and the cost of truth.”

Xackery is a New York–based director and producer, drawn to stories that unfold in times of crisis, where resilience and identity intersect. His debut documentary, American Chain Gang, exposed controversial forced-labor prison programs in the U.S. His follow-up, Nothing Without You, explored memory, loss, and obsession.

And now, with his latest film, Brace for Oblivion, he brings us an immersive chronicle from the Ukrainian frontlines, filmed over three years, following seven citizen-soldiers through the cycles of combat and rare moments of homecoming.

Beyond his films, Xackery co-chairs the Producers Guild of America’s Employment Committee and actively supports the international indie film community.

In our conversation, we’ll cover the power of pivoting as a producer, trusting your storytelling instincts, navigating today’s marketplace, and building strong creative teams. And of course, we’ll dive into the craft of writing, shooting, and editing documentaries under extraordinary circumstances.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Join us for a deep dive with Zachary Irving, sharing the craft of writing, shooting, and editing documentaries and features under extraordinary circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Papan, here with Carol Dean to support independent filmmakers with wisdom, resources, and real stories from the field. Today I'm honored to introduce a remarkable filmmaker whose work takes us to the very edge of human experience, Zachary Irving. Zachary is a New York-based director and producer drawn to stories that unfold in times of crisis, where resilience and identity intersect. His debut documentary, American Chain Gang, exposed controversial forced labor prison programs in the U.S. His follow-up, Nothing Without You, explored memory, loss, and obsession. And now with his latest film, Brace for Oblivion, he brings us an immersive chronicle from the Ukrainian front lines, filmed over three years, following seven citizen soldiers through the cycles of combat and rare moments of homecoming. Beyond his films, Zachary co-chairs the Producers Guild of America's Employment Committee and actively supports the international indie film community. In our conversation, we'll cover the power of pivoting as a producer, trusting your storytelling instincts, navigating today's markets, and of course, we'll dive into the craft of writing, shooting, and editing documentaries under extraordinary circumstances. And Carol, you met Zachary in New York City when he applied for the Roydine grant for his feature documentary American Chain Gang in the late 90s, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yes, Claire. And Zachary and I have been friends ever since. Thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, Claire and Carol, for having me.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Well, your latest film, This Brace for Oblivion, that's such a great film. You're immersed on the Ukrainian front lines. So tell us what drew you to this story and how on earth did you gain the trust of the soldiers to film these intimate, high-risk moments?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

You know, I felt um honestly, when I I didn't travel to Ukraine with a big plan because I felt pulled not by politics, but by the people seeing and hear seeing and hearing the stories of civilians, volunteers and soldiers who had dropped everything to defend their homes. I wanted to understand what it was like from the inside. And I had an amazing opportunity to travel to Ukraine. At first I met volunteers and journalists, and then I met these, as you call them, citizens turned soldiers who were like very uh like us, um, not people who were drawn to um to war, but there to support them, their country and their sovereignty and their independence and freedom. Things we can all, I think, relate to, um, but living in very extraordinary circumstances that only got more intense as things went on. But the way I see it is, Carol, is that if we could put ourselves in a storytelling vortex, that's the best place to be for us as filmmakers, as storytellers. And um, you whether you're writing a script where you feel compelled to tell a story, it's dynamic. And if you can be in a situation in a place, either mentally or physically, that lifts you up, has a sense of chaos, but you're in the center of extraordinary moments and compelling subjects that um you can um lose yourself uh and understand that um sometimes you can be uh in control and sometimes you're just sort of swept away by the moment. That's the key. And when I traveled to Ukraine, I was swept up and able to participate rather than try to kind of control um how the story was told, uh, you know, flying high with uh with them and letting them um letting the subjects uh guide the story. That was so important. And I think that was part of earning the trust was I always referred to this as our story um with the subjects, and we still keep in touch um even through post-production. And uh I thought it was also important to tell the story of the Ukrainian resistance through the eyes of the Ukrainians rather than making this a chronicle of the war as I saw it. It was uh a collaboration in the stories, uh in the experience, uh, that uh, you know, how how it unfolded. I needed to understand it through through their perspective, but I also wanted to uh engage with them so I could understand uh the moments, the stakes, uh, and everything that was happening um from their from their perspectives, from their from where they where they where they stood.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Oh, that's incredible because yes, it's uh to them, they're fighting for their homeland, but for their family and their friends and their neighbors. I mean, it's so personal. So, yes, uh, I guess approaching it as our story is a brilliant way to go into it because you're seeing it from an a as a you're an American, you live in a safe zone, you're okay. Yeah, but they're not, and um so it's passion. They're in there for because they're passionate about their country and their future.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

That's right. And they're on an open-ended journey of of defending themselves. And um, you know, I could always um I could always step away if I wanted to. I didn't want to, obviously, because I was compelled to uh tell the story in a deepest way possible. It's just such a privilege to be in that time and place, but I have to remember that um I have I have a different experience, um, not just from my my perspective and understanding of the culture and language, um, which I have very little of and I'm always trying to learn more. But I had to always remember that their experience is something that I can only um try to connect with, because um for that it is uh it's it's an open-ended journey. And that's part of the storytelling is you know, the um the film is a three-year chronicle of the beginning of the war till basically where we are now, which is um a time of confusion, bewilderment, uh, and even more resolve. But being with um with these subjects explaining their experience and then just seeing moments of truth with um no real dialogue, but you know, obviously moments of action when they're fighting, but uh the reaction to the experience, the um just these quiet moments of homecoming uh that are uh you know a part of the experience and why they're fighting while they're why why they're fighting. We also just um we, well, it was mostly me on the field, but we as a team, um uh Jim Feeney, my my editor and I, um were also sort of exploring how we could weave in the larger story. And the capital, Kyiv, is um uh a place where we would come back to to get a sense of what the climate is for the people that they're defending. And so um, you know, we wanted this to be not a war film, but a film about humanity. And um and I think that's the spirit of the subjects. I war is the last thing they want to be doing. Um you know, fighting combat is not something that they gravitate towards. They um they're they're people that you said are in situations where they have to defend their homeland. So reminding people of what is at stake to them by seeing scenes, for example, of a group of family members grieving the loss of missing those missing in action, um, an airstrike in the middle of the capital of the city being defended uh with patriot missiles, um, you know, a parade of of gear that uh materiel that was used to invade uh and conquer Kyiv, but it was uh destroyed. Um, and people looking at them to see, you know, this is a reality of what we're facing. This is almost what happened. So, you know, weaving in that it's not just for kind of storytelling scale, but we really want it's all about the viewer, right? It's all about the immersion of this experience so um the subjects can connect with an audience by them identifying with their experience. That was the challenge we had in the edit. And in the field, um, it was all about just filming as much as possible, without, you know, uh crossing some lines of of uh, you know, um, you know, always sort of having the permission of when we were filming painful moments, but just as much as possible, filming the experience, getting to know the footage intimately, even though we had about a thousand hours of it, um, so that we could build that experience in the edit room. So that was um that was our that was the mindset while I was there.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

So right, so you're working on your uh so what were the biggest personal and logistical challenges that you um overcame?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, I'd put them in those two categories, Carol. They're logistic and emotional. Well, logistically, um I was on my own, uh, which actually was um actually really helpful because I could move quickly, have a light footprint. But um, but also uh, you know, putting everything, everything I had was on I carried with me on my back. Um, so you know, um it was, you know, uh every choice mattered uh of what I carried with me, how I got there, even how I communicated. Uh, and you know, building trust is an important aspect, and that's always something you daily uh build on. Um it's just um uh so important how you kind of conduct yourself. Uh, but on, you know, how logistically being there, getting there, and you know, staying in one piece are kind of the headlines for the logistic part. But um I think the hardest part wasn't logistical, it was emotional. You form connections with these people. I call them people, not just soldiers, but they're they're people that um are uh not just wearing a uniform, they're people that um we really focus on their sense of humanity, and that was a priority for them too. You know, it's men, women, um, it's uh, you know, their sense of humanity and independence is a source of pride for them, even when they're on the front lines, you know, particularly when they're on the front lines. So in um, you know, filming them cooking a meal together, uh, you know, uh a medal ceremony, um, talking about their uh family members, you know, filming that it's also the experience of of chronicling that you connect with them more and more. And some of them um didn't make it, some of them are missing. And uh I carry that back with me. The weight of their stories is something that I'm processing still, and it's very much a text of the film. Um and I think you know, there's a there's a saying in in uh you know, that region of the world, um may their memory be eternal. And I think that this film um eternalizes not just the memory of those that have been lost, but the experiences of those that are still fighting. And I think you had told me when I was, Carol, you and I spoke when I was in Ukraine, and you gave me some great advice and some good guidelines and context. And one of the things you told me that I'll never forget was you had said, you know, when you're interviewing someone and they have an idea about what they're experiencing, uh, an idea of of what they're fighting for. You you said when um when they're saying something and they're vulnerable, um, under fire, uh, you know that this could be their last moment. It has such incredible weight. And that stuck with me um because uh, you know, the the threat of um harm is not always apparent. It can come out of nowhere. But um their um, you know, their shared experience of the pain, uh the fear, and normalization is uh what I would call kind of what they were experiencing. What would in the first days of the war be horrible, uh bewildering, scary, became normal. And a lot of what I would see was this kind of race between the horrors and normalization of the experience of open-ended combat.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Wow. Well, Zachary, the all the years you spent talking about having a light footprint. I remember when you were shooting documentaries for one of the channels, and you said you would go in with just one other person, and the two of you would get everything. You do the sound and uh the shooting and the decorating and everything that had to be done, the two of you could do it. That that's a sign of a good documentariat to be self-sufficient. And so you took all that experience on the battlefield. So you were a one-man band, you could do it all. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Well, I think that's a lesson that really serves us all right now in this kind of um developing disrupted time of telling stories, as much as we can do, as much as we can put, we'll call it production value if we're writing a scripted film, but as much as we can um uh allocate our resources to be uh what's in front of the camera versus the support of what you would normally need if you're working with a larger budget, you have departments. If we can do that on every level within, you know, the parameters of whatever story we're telling, um, that spirit of wearing multiple hats within storytelling on every, you know, a visual storytelling, the ability to do that sometimes opens doors for you. Um many times, if you have, you know, if you have an idea and you can move forward on it, whether it's shooting a proof of concept or just getting in and finding your way and filming um uh early on, um having that sense of you know self-reliance as we're independent filmmakers and having that sense of independence and finding ways uh to do it, to get started, to carry us through, uh, with um you know, with the the industry kind of redesfining what it is, not waiting for um for gatekeepers to open the doors for us and just going for it and starting to produce material on our own. It's a real, you know, it's a real strategy for moving forward in this day and age.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yes, and and uh you're exactly right on that. If there's a story that's compelling and you want to make it, you're going to have to put your time and energy and your own money into making it happen. And then sorry, Carol.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

It also serves us as filmmakers because even if that doesn't yield fruit, you've done it, you've put yourself, you've you've got more time behind the camera or you know, or writing, whatever it is. If you get started, it even if it doesn't uh take you all the way to the end to having a finished product that's uh something you would share with the world, it doesn't matter because you are getting better at what you do. You're also thinking in more critical ways the next time because you know from experience what works and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

And yes, and you keep getting better. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Keep getting better.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yes, that's this is what's so much fun. Going back to read blogs that I wrote four or five years ago, and I like the content, but I can do it better now, I think. Oh, I could write that better, and this is what we all strive for.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

And this world of ours in the filmmaking business, we want to keep getting better and better. But I'm I wonder how how did you handle the editing process when you had what a thousand hours of uh personal, intimate uh statements from people who had disappeared. How how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Well, you know, I say a thousand hours. I I didn't shoot all of those a thousand hours, though I'm I'm shooting and directing. A lot of that was material that the subjects gave to me. And we were um while I was had access to um incredible access to the front lines, um, I was on a short leash. Uh I don't think a commander in the Ukrainian army wants to have to fill out the paperwork of an American filmmaker uh, you know, being lost or harmed. So uh, you know, af as time went on, I had more and more um trust and uh and I showed that I the priority obviously obviously always was um uh everyone having their full full attention on um the mission, their safety, and the collective goal of of you know whatever whatever uh kind of tactical um uh priority they had. But um but when I was along for the ride, uh I would hand off a GoPro as I was leaving the zero line, or I would um buy a new camera for uh one of the subjects while I was headed one part of the front or one part of an area, the story would go on uh so that I had that multiple perspective. And even um, you know, you can get a sense as you know, the seven subjects, seven main subjects, eleven total, um, were going. Uh, I wanted to have the camera in place so we could continue that intimate journey with them. So a lot of it was uh material that I shot, you know, I'd say 80, 90% of it. And a lot of it was material that I would go through that would be um just so pivotal in telling the full story. So a lot of it was, well, first of all, you gotta watch, I think you gotta watch everything. And logging it is incredibly important because you want to be prepared. You know, the edit is a way to get lost in your footage, but it's also a great way to have an idea of moving forward and then give up that plan. But I don't want to bring James Feeney as my very talented editor. I don't want to bring James in and waste his time. So I believe in preparation. Um, I believe in understanding the experience and writing a script so that each scene that you know, not every scene is going to make the final cut. We have a way forward, and that's where we start. So I put, you know, I just do a paper cut of that scene uh with um a lot of the possibilities of that extra footage as a part of that script. But I want us to have a roadmap forward for telling the story and then give up that roadmap as we have our first, you know, um draft, first uh cut of a scene. But operating on the scene level first, um, but on a personal level, you know, it was like trying to shape memory because I was there, but I hadn't had years of footage, but I wasn't interested in making a chronicle. I wasn't interested in um sharing my experience. I wanted the film to be immersive. I wanted you to be there with them as they experience things in the moment. So, you know, the chaos, the waiting, the respites of peace, the fear of death, um, the confusion, um, the resolve, the sense of um, you know, resistance. I wanted that to be visceral and real. No matter where you were coming from watching the film, that was the important thing. And that was kind of our guiding principle going through. So, you know, we edited emotional arcs, not just events and scenes. So putting that together and always having that as a context when we were editing, you know, from that unit of scenes to create, you know. Something immersive, avoiding the sense of exposition and always going towards the immersive experience for the audience.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

That's great. I've never seen a film like that. So I I'm so excited because I want to be part of the film. That's my favorite thing when I get so wrapped up in a film that I hate to see it end, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Well, that's the idea. You know, I I use this, I don't know if it's a good analog, but it's a vortex. And, you know, you you put yourself in the center of it. And you know, but that the idea for doing that is not just for the experience of us as a filmmaker, it's for the experience of the viewer. You want them to have that feeling when they're watching and hearing your film. What the hell is next? Yes. You want you that experience that you have not to be chronic, a chronicle of your experience, but you want that to communicate in the experience for someone you hope sees it on the big screen, uh, you know, tomorrow, years to come. And I think you had told me, Carol, is you know, to have a sense that this film is, if you do something, you know, if you make a film, it's it's out there, you hope for forever. But you have to also consider, you told me that this is something that might outlive us. And for if even if it's just a family member of the subjects for them to see, their grandkids to see in the future, um, you know, you want that idea of what you're telling to not need explanation, but to really be felt.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

A major historical film of what was happening in our world at that time. And here are the people on the front lines. It couldn't be better. Now, you know, Zachary, looking at your films, you seem to explore identity and crisis, whether in prisons or psychological thrillers or war zones. So the question is, how do you decide what stories are worth committing years of your life to? Because you do. You put in, you must have five to seven years in this film.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

You told me when I met you first, and you were advising me on American Chain Gang after I applied for the grant. Is I was going back to Alabama to um film in a in a prison, and you said, remember, films have a life of their own. They are organic beings, and you may want it to go someplace, but you have to yield to that. So, yes, you I have that knowledge that you're just like this is an open-ended journey for the subjects, this is an open-ended journey for all of us as filmmakers. We don't get to say when it's over. Um, we at times have to abandon it uh and be finished because that's just the constraints of a schedule that we have. But we can't, we have an idea, we have an initial idea, don't we, Carol, of what the story should be? And then we experience it. And then either it's from us understanding it or you know, getting some peer review of a screening or as a conversation or just stepping back from it, we understand what the film wants to be. Um, and that's the with the important thing to keep in mind before you go into it and honor while you're going through. So, yeah, I have an idea that when you enter a process, a film, it's going to take years, whether it's written or you know, a scripted project or not. But um, I guess it comes down to instinct, doesn't it, Carol? We're storytellers that are driven by that.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

It has to be, um, it has to be something that you truly connect with because of the time it takes. I think this is the longest art form, documentary filmmaking, all right, or features, because sometimes it's 10 years to get a feature.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Sometimes it's decades, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Right. So yes, it's up to the person. And when you it's the inner knowing, noetic is the word. When it's inner knowing that this is your film, you're the one to make it, there's nothing will stop you. And that's what I love about documentaries, because the tenacity is the backbone of the filmmaker, and they just take that idea against all odds, and they like you have. And you we didn't even discuss how you got the approval to get into the front lines. How long did that take you?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Well, uh tenacity is key. And I think I just want to go back to the stories we tell. I think that that is a really good um quality for the subjects, for the people uh whose story you're trusted in telling. Um, you know, I can't think of anybody more tenacious than citizen soldiers that are uh risking their lives uh in in in ways that are hard to fathom because they are defending their homeland with their lives and with everything they know and and uh with a sense of how unclear and how it's gonna come out the other end. Um that's tenacity in just such a pure form. And in ways, um, you know, exploring those kind of stories just calls to you, doesn't it? Um but getting the trust is a slow process. So I was very lucky, you know. I as I said, I didn't have a clear plan when I entered Ukraine and I reached out to people that I knew and friends of people I knew, and I was filming everything that was in front of me. Uh I was really lucky to meet an independent uh journalist, Cristiano Tanazzi. He's one of the bravest people I know. And he he uh said, please, you know, come shadow me. And I met the subjects through him. Uh that was just a meeting, and then I just um there's just a moment where you fall in love with the idea of a story, and uh it was time to leave. And I remember one of them saying, like, you should come back. And I have said, just without hesitation, just without thinking, like, I want to live here. And uh, you know, it wasn't really a fully formed idea, but I was able to come back and I was able to stay. And I think, you know, I live with them, I ate with them, and I got a sense that I'm not here to dip in and out. This is not um a story that I want to live with you and understand your experience. And I also want to give you a sense to communicate it on your terms, and in doing so, further understand and serve the story. If it's legitimately through their perspective, um, you just get a real stronger engagement with it. So, you know, keep it real. Um, people can tell when you're manipulating. Um, and I continue that can I continue the openness um with the subjects to this day. One of the ideas we have is if we have a screening and it's at a festival, and if they're have permission to join us, um, that would be the dream to have a panel discussion with the filmmakers, uh, with the sorry, the subjects, uh, as a part of that discussion for the for an audience to to participate in, because you know, um, this was our journey collectively. So that idea is is part of you know how um I presented myself to them. And um, you know, I I at there are times where it I put the camera down um to show them that I'm here as as a person, not just someone who is going to document moments. And the more I did that, the more I was encouraged to keep the camera up and keep it rolling.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Oh, good, good. How nice. They really got into it then. They wanted it. That's great. Well, this is the thing. Um, Hollywood is known to say, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Hollywood embellishes the story, but not a documentarian. So, what you have to do then is create a compelling narrative arc and without distorting the truth. And that's not easy. You've got to tell us the truth.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

You've got to tell the truth. I think I had this luxury of the extreme circumstances that were the truth, and the what was in front of us, what was really happening, was just so uh engaging. So I keep using that word engaging and compelling, but it was more than that. It was um strangely fascinating. Uh, and the moments that you would um it was like uh seeing um uh the most dramatic form of storytelling unravel in front of you. There were times where the front line would disappear, and where we were standing as a reserve base was the front line.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

There was uh the idea, how do we redefend ourselves? And this was happening, and I'm filming and I don't understand the language, I understand a few words, and as things went on, I understand more and more. But there are these times where I don't know what the hell's going on, and I just got to keep rolling with it. And then I interview someone who speaks English or I understand something through some way. This is such a compelling moment that I'm so glad that I rolled on because I got a sense of it was interesting. But um, it was just everywhere you look, it was something interesting. Uh, and and the more you uh you filmed, the the better depth you had, the more uh opportunities you had to explore that. But I also wanted to say one of the lessons I learned making American Chain Gang, which was shot on 16 millimeter film and recorded on dat, uh that um I, you know, you talk about how you looked at your blogs, now you do something better. I learned, I look at that film a lot, and I think of, you know, I was 25 when I made it, and I think what I could do differently, so many things. But even shooting on 16 millimeter film, I would film more, I would be present more. And uh, you know, earning the trust and having that access is so important. But you gotta keep filming, stick to your story like glue. Go down rabbit holes that won't pay off because you'll be surprised how they do. And that's um, that's a lesson that I I live by is just keep filming, just keep getting more material. Hand a GoPro off to someone while you are at a different spot. You never know, ask for permission to go somewhere that you don't think you necessarily need to go. Uh, without, you know, don't be a complete nuisance, but um open up those storytelling opportunities because exploring the truth of your experience really comes from exploring it, and you'll find that truth is more interesting as fiction. It's requires a little bit of discipline.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yes, the truth is just it's wonderful. And sometimes you hear a true story and you can't believe it, but it's really that's where the Cohen brothers came in. They took stories that you wouldn't believe and made films, and they were very successful. Well, um the film you you made the feature film, Nothing Without You, and from that film to Brace for Oblivion, that's a documentary and a feat a feature. So, what do you learn from one form that strengthens your storytelling in the other form? Tell us that because I always worry that someone who's only made features and goes into documentaries may not have the talent.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Well, an actor will tell you when they're per performing the lines that are in a script, they have to feel true. They have to feel real. So the spirit of truth is always what guides you, even if you're writing something fictional. Well, when you're documenting the reality, the day-to-day realities of extreme situations, that idea of um uh exploring what the stakes are, um, you want to get a sense of uh scale, um tension, uh, and avoiding exposition. It's funny to say in documentary, have your exposition in both the written form and uh verite is the exposition being dramatized. So when we're in a place that is historically significant, or there's a life and death kind of extreme situation, finding ways to explain that context while still following the journey of the subject. I think those both apply. But um, you know, the difference is when you're filming something, you don't want to force that sense of structure too early. You want it, it's a living organism, right, Carol? You want it to live. So you have a sense of what the structure is, but you're really not gonna know until you live with the footage. Look for those patterns and rhythms and emotional pivots. You had said recently, and it's something important to remember is when we're making a documentary film, it's born in the edit room. And you had said when you're with your editor, I don't know if you remember this, you got your selection of an editor is really important because you're gonna live in the trenches. I think that's such a good uh colorful expression that really resonates. Is you are gonna find your story. Um, what whatever ideas you had initially while you were making it or you know, before, those carry through and they can serve you. But be willing to sacrifice that and see what structure exists in the story, in the material, or lack of structure, depending on how you want to go about telling the story or experience. But um, you know, it's like um it's like you're writing the screenplay while you're with the film and the in the material, and even before edit starts by exploring the the footage.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Absolutely. Wow, good advice. So, how do you see the current marketplace, Zachary, for independent talks? Do you think there are more opportunities now or more competition, or what do you see?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

That's such uh I think that the the answer is changing. Uh the last five years have been very um disruptive. Uh I think there's new answers to that question. Um I don't think there uh I think it's been a really challenged market by so many factors, right, Carol? I think we have from the top consolidation. Um there are fewer uh larger platforms to get your story on. There's this added uh aspect of the political environment here, with um with uh if it's something political, being able to express it fully um on a large scale, um, on a you know, in a mass, uh especially in this country. So yes, I think we're in a period of deep disruption. And um how it comes to the marketplace and how it ultimately more for my mind, how it comes to a world stage, that's not a clear path, and it's getting more and more confusing. Um, and I think, you know, being well informed of you know, where you want your film to air, where do you want your film to be distributed is always important to keep in mind. But um, you know, we're in a vortex, not just as storytellers, but as as people who are focused on the marketplace, we're at the whim of a lot of forces that we can't control. We need to be aware of them. The only thing we do have control is how compelling our story is, and that if it gets in front of the right people, it will build its own mass. And, you know, understanding like where, you know, where it would air and where how it would be distributed on a streamer or YouTube or in a theatrical run is important to understand what makes your film um more marketable and how to how to really um present that well. But at the end of the day, it's the power of good storytelling that will kind of transcend a marketplace that's shifting rapidly.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Yes, a good story. That's what it's all about. That's one. We get we go to the movies to empower ourselves. We want to feel good when we leave, you know. It's a way that we move ourselves out of depression or sadness or we're worried about something. But when we go to the movie, we think of nothing but the film, it takes over. So a good story will always survive. And I think that filmmakers just have to go into uh the story and say to themselves, if I have to, I will distribute it myself.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

That's right. You can't chase trends. And I think audiences are hungry for the truth, not just, you know, what is appealing to the marketplace today in 2025 or in 26 or however it merges. You can't chase trends. You you can't cater to where things are now. Um, but yeah, you know, uh quest for the truth is gonna guide us as filmmakers. And um, and having you know, our our authorship of our stories in our own way, um, staying true to that is what's gonna serve us ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Exactly. Well, Peter Broderick has some great ideas for distribution for documentarians. So it's Peter Broderick.com, and he's put out uh three bulletins recently about dramatic distribution, self-distribution. And I highly recommend that uh filmmakers take a look at his ideas because they're out of the box and they help you make more money. The fun thing is that you can make more money by yourself, but it's a full-time job, and everyone wants to make the film and go make another film, but that's gonna have to change. If you really want to stay in the game, you're going to have to be able to help make money on your own documentary so you can afford to do the next one, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

So uh I think it's a fun time to be in the market, uh, because if we put ourselves in the position that this is a good story, we're telling a story, and I I go out and I find my audience, I test and know who's really my audience, then uh you're way ahead of most people. And then you can direct your energies to getting your film to that audience. So what do you think about uh you said something about pivoting is central to producing. So share a moment on Brace for Oblivion where pivoting changed the course of the film.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

That's right. Well, I I will tell you this it's it's self-financed, and I did it um on my own dime. Oh I didn't wait for um, although you know I did win a grant, uh, thank you. Um I didn't wait for the approval uh to move forward in a traditional way. You would get um you'd wait to get grants or even co-production uh to move forward. So I went for it and I found subjects and stayed connected with it um in ways that I normally wouldn't. Um what I mean is I, you know, the run and gun stuff, the uh probably a poor choice of words because we're talking about a war, but the the you know, light footprint model of of filming, that's that's existed for a long time. But um, but you know, putting in an idea that you've if you travel light, you can pivot as far as your storytelling goes. And you can move quickly. You can you can hop on a train if a road's closed or GPS is whatever it is, move quickly, think about the possibilities and um and move fast. Uh that's one of the things is wear a nice, if you're in the probably in war zone, boots are good. Always wear good footwear. Yes. You're gonna need to move quickly and and be light on your feet and be able to pivot. But that's um, that's in a production sense. I think as you're talking about the marketplace and time we spend, as we have limited resources, usually it's it's money, but it's time, right? It's your energy, what you're gonna put your time into. You need to look at what other people are doing in your shoes, how things that are in the festival circuit or in the market, what are they doing? And be willing to understand the marketplace. But like you say, what Peter Broderick is saying, putting it out yourself, have the ability to jump on that if that makes more sense. But um, you know, um your guiding principle has to be your instincts always. But if your goal is to get your film to as wide an audience as possible, or the right audience, let's say you're making a film for a particular um niche that you want to um, you know, it's an activist uh idea that you want to make sure you're um creating something for a specific audience that engages them, whatever it is, thinking about how to get there and not be limited by the venue, like the the path forward to get there. Um it's uh it's there is no path to get there that's clear. Things are changing constantly. So being aware of what trends are out there. Thinking about what is the goal? Who should be seeing this film? How can I get it there? And the nice thing about, you know, living in this day and age is we have so many resources at our fingertips we didn't before. I'm not just talking about production, but we have an ability to reach an audience through social media, to engage with them. There are NGOs that would love to have a screening of a film. There's ways to build an audience without having a sales agent. Um, it's always good to have one. It's there's ways to build uh momentum uh without having a festival run, but always thinking about what do I need to do to get to that that big goal? And um keeping your options open is the name of the game when you're thinking about pivoting.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Well, tell us about that social media campaign that you had. It was very successful. I understand you captured behind the scenes videos to build a more personal connection with your audience.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

I think that's great advice for anybody to do. And somebody had told me to do that, another filmmaker um uh as I was going in. The nice thing about I would come back. I was there four times and I would spend, you know, months and I would come back to New York between rotations to the front line and read, you know, talk to other filmmakers and get some context, screen the footage, uh, get ready for edit, and then go back again. But um what I noticed was when I was talking about the experience of making the film, that raised some eyebrows, that got some real interest. It's just the process of making the film. So I was told by a filmmaker, document what you're doing. And I had been doing that because I was making kind of director's notes and um kind of chronicling my experience and how I was coming to decisions uh creatively about how to follow the story. But I just started doing it because, you know, while you're there, you lose sight of where you are. And if you can relay, you know, here I am in a house that's right on the front line, you can hear artillery going off, and this is what at stake, and this is these are the people I'm with. Well, that's an extraordinary circumstance you're in. You know, as I said, I wasn't making a chronicle of the war through my perspective, but it opens up the storytelling and it engages an audience if you are making a story in any capacity. I really think if you're writing it, you know, writing a script is some of the most exciting um storytelling um exercise you can make because you can create anything. Document that. You know, it may not go anywhere, but you have that moment in time where you were part of that process. We make James and I make videos all the time when we were in the edit room. Um, you know, I went to um Buenos Aires to meet my composer who I'd never met before. And I, you know, documented uh going to um, you know, traveling 5,500 miles to get some great music. Um but you know, if you have this this form, it's all about storytelling, isn't it? And if your social media tells a story about your film, it builds interest. And um we um, especially with documentaries, we're building an audience. Um, it's a lot of grassroots. Um, even if you do have a great festival run, you want to build on that and you want people to any way you can open up that immersive experience uh in seeing like a behind-the-scenes video, when they see the film, they're gonna remember, oh, that's where the filmmaker was, that's where his feet were. This is this is kind of the circumstances. When you see it visually, it gives you a cue and opens things up. People love process, don't they? I mean, I I watch that's what I watch on on uh social media is how to you know making of what was the experience like for uh making this film, even if it's a film I haven't seen. Um, I think that there's some some value in that.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

It's it's a lot of fun because I love Criterion and I can go back and see interviews with Kurosawa and all of those great directors and learn how they did what they did and get in their minds so that when you're looking at their films, you appreciate them much more. So, yes, I think that's brilliant, but I want to commend you because I understand you are co-chair of the PGA Employment Committee. Good for you. I mean, that's a lot of work um to put into something that you love. I know it's all free work, and so, but putting your time there is beneficial. So tell us what insights you can share about building fair, resilient, and creative teams in today's industry.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Yeah, I'm I'm really lucky to have peers that I co-chair with on this committee and others that are committed to exploring the state of the industry and giving members uh a 360 view of the of the industry. It's rapidly changing. Um, but I get as much out of it than I I put in, I actually get more because I I just love the sense of community. It's very rare as producers and directors. Sometimes we just get so focused on our own project. We're in a black hole for a while, and it's nice to be with other producers and directors and writers that are doing the same thing and compare notes. So um I like membership organizations like the Producers Guild in that um, you know, just that I idea of sense of community, especially coming out of COVID. It's it's been five years, four years, but it still seems like yesterday. So being in a room with people and and uh having industry leaders come in and share their insights and perspective, it's great. And I think we all have a hunger for perspective right now. Um, but um, you know, we're all trying to navigate our path forward, trying to understand the landscape. It's uncertain, um, but we support each other. And um, you know, we're while we're still trying to create push creative boundaries, we need to build those environments or nourish them um so people feel safe and taking risks and storytelling.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yes, people want new perspectives right now, so uh anything out of the box, in fact, no box. Yeah, thinking on their own. And what I have seen is that when people don't know they can't do it, they do it, right? I saw someone in um Australia who made a film and they didn't know what to do with it. So they gave it away free, but they had things for sale, and then they put it up, put the film up for sale after they gave it away for free, and they made over a million dollars, right? Because everybody loved the film and they came back and wanted to buy the download for their girlfriend, boyfriend, or whatever. Um, so and they would have never given it for free had they known they weren't supposed to. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 52:03

Well, that's that's a good example. We talk about pivoting, and one of the things we want to keep in mind is what are some success stories? And that's a good one. You've always been focused on that in your blog, in your podcasts, in your classes is what are some success stories that are out of the box, and as you say, without a box, because yeah, that's a good point. The structure is disappearing. So why adhere to what you know is a traditional path to getting your story out there? Let's look at what exists and what people who don't know what the box is are doing. Great ideas.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

In closing, uh, for all of us, whether they're filmmakers, funders, or audiences listening, Zachary, tell us what you believe is one of the most important roles documentary films can play in today's world.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

They connect us with what matters. And they do it in a way that is focused on unfiltered view of what's in front of us. With so much of media being consumed, um, and there's strength in you know, short form social media uh storytelling or um engagement. Um, a lot of it's performative and filtered. And documentaries ask us to sit with something unshaped, uh unvarnished, and they challenge us and ultimately um move us. And you say there's a hunger for new perspectives, there's a hunger for what's real, and that's what documentaries are, they're verite.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

And and you have to give the documentarians uh much gratitude for doing the research because when I watch a uh documentary, they'll say, This is here, and this is over here, this is what this person said, this is what the other person said, this is what, and then let us make our own decisions. And I love it. But normally, most people don't have the time to go research something to determine what's the truth behind you've been hearing statements, but what's the truth? And I think that's a documentarian's heart, that's who they are. They have to tell you the truth and show you all sides and let you decide.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

When a filmmaker does that and lets you make your conclusions on your own, there's that's not always the way to go, um, and always the the choice that a filmmaker will make for good reasons. But I always like when a filmmaker lets you put two and two together and come up with the the result, you know, by experiencing it because I I keep using the word immersion, and I think that that for me is the kind of films that I really um, you know, having that freedom, the filmmaker just lets you swim in this experience, experiencing it kind of on your own and making your own conclusions while connecting with the subjects, the story, the stakes. Um, that's a kind of film that really deserves a big screen uh experience. So um, you know, that's another part of Verite is, you know, Verite is um it's it's rough, it's unpolished, it should be. It should be this, you know, you should feel it, hear it, understand it. Um, it should challenge you. Uh, and um it's uh something that no matter what screen you're watching it on, there's that powerful um instinct that it it emotes in you that translates it's from the filmmaker. And a lot of times what the filmmaker experiences on that journey of telling the story, it's so powerful to see a tr a film that kind of translates that that response, that instinctual response. Because we're watching films and and hearing them, but when we feel them, um, that's what stays with us.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

That's what stays with us. Thank you, Zachary. What great advice! What thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us. We really appreciate it. Lots of good luck. So your film now is uh you're still working on the edit, you haven't finalized it yet.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

That's right. You know how it is. Uh you lock picture and then you unlock because you want to make it better and better. So uh we have it in a pretty good stage, and we're excited about launching it at whatever festival um makes sense. And uh in the meantime, putting out the social media and and inviting people to engage in the um the experience of of what we're gonna put out there.

SPEAKER_02 56:45

Okay. For people that want to see and learn more about the film, where can they go?

SPEAKER_00 56:50

That's right. So we have um a Facebook uh X and um uh what are the other ones? Uh Instagram and um uh and um Facebook. Yeah. Uh and um we have it's it's Brace for Oblivion, F-O-R Oblivion, uh, one word at face for oblivion. And um uh we um have on there updates, we have stills of the film, we have um you know um material that helps you understand who the characters are, what story we're telling, and then as I said, behind the scenes um material as well.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

Terrific. Thank you so much, Zachary. Best of luck with your film.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Thank you so much for all your support, Carol.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Yes, you're so welcome. And Claire, thank you very much for uh helping with the show. Yes, my pleasure. Yes, good luck, Zach.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

All the best, thank you.