Award winning filmmakers Elliot Kirschner & Heather Kinlaw Lofthouse discuss their documentary The Last Class featuring Robert Reich teaching about income inequality - Hosted by Heather Lenz

Today our special guests are Elliot Kirschner and Heather Kinlaw Lofthouse. Elliot Kirschner is a New York Times best-selling author and an Emmy Award-winning news and documentary producer. Elliot began his career at CBS News, reporting and producing for 60 Minutes, Sunday Morning, and The Evening News. Elliot now authors the Through the Fog newsletter. Heather Kinlaw Lofthouse is the Executive Director of Inequality Media and Inequality Media Civic Action and the founder of CoffeeKlatch Productions. She is also the co-host of “The Coffee Klatch,” a conversational podcast about the news of the week, with her longtime collaborator Robert Reich. Today we’ll discuss The Last Class, a documentary feature produced by Heather and directed by Elliot about Former Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Today we are joined by our guest host, filmmaker Heather Lenz, best known for directing and producing the Sundance documentary Kusama Infinity. Our special guests today are Elliot Kirshner and Heather Kinlaw Lofthouse. Elliot is a New York Times best-selling author and an Emmy Award-winning news and documentary producer. He's the executive producer of the nonprofit science communication lab, which produces and distributes science films for public and educational audiences. Heather is the executive director of inequality media and inequality media civic action and the founder of Coffee Klotch Productions. She's also the co-host of The Coffee Klotch, a conversational podcast about the news of the week with her longtime collaborator, Robert Reich. Today we'll discuss The Last Class, a documentary feature produced by Heather and directed by Elliot about former Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Well, thank you so much, Claire, for the introduction. And thank you so much, Elliot and Heather, for joining us today. Elliot, for anyone who hasn't seen The Last Class yet and maybe unfamiliar with the subject, can you please tell us what it's about?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Well, it's uh as the name suggests, it is the last class. Um, and we're speaking specifically of the last class of Professor Robert Reich, who many maybe better know him as the former Secretary of Labor in the Clinton administration and also uh internet sensation and a public intellectual and all that. But um, he would say that his true calling, and he does in the film, is that of a teacher. Uh, he he taught at in institutions of higher education for over a 42-year span. Um, and we were there to capture his final semester teaching a course called Wealth and Inequality uh at UC Berkeley. It was a huge course, it has about 800 students in it, in the largest lecture hall on campus. Um, and it was just really an opportunity to sort of look at, you know, have him explain what it's like to wrap up this chapter of his life against the backdrop, obviously, of a very complicated society and a moment in history that these children are entering in, specifically around the issues that are raised in the class, which are about our economic system and democracy more generally. So it really is a you know an examination of that semester, following from the beginning of the semester through the end, and then his recollections looking back at his life and specifically teaching, but also teaching that course and what that means.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Well, it's a really great film, and I definitely encourage our listeners to check it out if they haven't seen it already. Heather, how did you become acquainted with Robert Reich and what made you think that he'd be a good subject for a documentary?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Thanks so much, Heather. It's so exciting to be here, and thank you, Claire. So I became acquainted with Professor Reich at the time because he was my uh teacher in grad school. So I took a leadership class with him in 2006. Here I am aging myself. Um and the class was exceptional. Some of my classmates at the Goldman School at UC Berkeley, this was a master's in public policy program, um, were think were a little frustrated, I think, with the class because it followed a lot of case studies, it had a lot of reading, and it wasn't what I would say would be more of a business school class that says, okay, you're running a company or an organization with 10 to 15 people. This is how you lead it. You know, these are HR issues. It was way more philosophical and way more Socratic, or he is in his delivery, um, which I loved. And so he was my professor. Um, and I wasn't one of his teaching assistants, which are called graduate student instructors, but so many students of the Goldman School are. Um, and so I just knew him from that. And then our paths crossed again a couple times. I returned to UC Berkeley as a staffer for a while, and he and I interacted and had to do a lot of stuff together where I was taking him around to different UC campuses, all 10, in fact. He would, he and I would drive to Merced. And so we reconnected. And your second part of your questions, what made me think he would be a good subject for a film? He's a good subject for everything. I mean, he is so thoughtful, and the way he processes things is so candid and authentic and transparent. I think that aligns with his Socratic method in the classroom. I think he's really um, you know, a thinker. And so capturing him on film to me is a no-brainer. So what we do for my, you know, the bulk of what I've done with him is make these short form video explainers to put out on social media. So make a longer something with him, a short film, a documentary, yes, please. I mean, I think it was, he lends himself to it. He makes it easy, and he'd probably be annoyed that I said that because, you know, he'd say, Oh, please, but I'm telling you, it's easy.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

No, I I absolutely agree with you. Um, Elliot, the film highlights Robert's work to get his students to think critically. And he also says he wants them to see examples of people who disagree but still get along. Can you please talk about why those issues are so important, especially now?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, well, I mean, I think most people listening, I mean, have some sense of this that you know, we are at a a crisis in this country and the world more generally, about how we how we process information, I think, how we think about difficult problems, how we how we listen to others, how we debate, how we how we form ideas that might help us get through these very troubling times. Some of those troubles are self-inflicted, some are more you know, broad, you know, they're sort of you know climate change or you know, the legacies of racial injustice and economic injustice. But you know, if I you know, I think then you know, um you know, as Heather talked about this sort of Socratic method, you know, and the way that Bob likes to think, you know, he really um really is interested in what other people think. He really is someone that likes to listen more than talk. And you know, for someone who has a lot to say to really want to hear what others have to say is I think a really important modeling for for young people. Um and and you know, in his class, he's very, you know, even though he online gives a lot of his opinions, he's very careful not to give his opinions in the class. Um he really wants to present data, which is, you know, doesn't have an opinion, but he makes very clear that people of good faith can come to different conclusions from the same data. Um, and I think that's what he thinks critical thinking is all about, and it's essential for learning, it's essential for democracy and the intersection of the two. So I really wanted to, you know, I uh I it resonates with what I view education should be that it's a participatory event and an exercise that we need to be engaged in and take responsibility for our learning and from and from seeking out other people's opinions. And so, you know, being able to showcase him, explain that with all of the eloquence that he does, um it was just really it's just an honor because I I think it's a message that these times desperately need.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Well, you did a great job explaining that, and that's absolutely true. The film, um, but yeah, what's included in the film is definitely very different content than I've seen um online in other places. So um one of the topics that Robert Reich helps educate people about is income equality. Heather, can you please help us understand how drastic income equality has become in America and what has caused the gap to widen so much in past decades?

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Yes, so inequality media is the name of our nonprofit. And Bob has been talking about income inequality and wealth inequality for, I don't know, 40 plus years. Um, he's not the only one, right? People like Bernie Sanders and other people, Elizabeth Warren have been really emphasizing that there is a problem when the federal minimum wage, do we know when it was last raised? Was it in 2010? Was it in 2020? Was it it was 2009, the last time the federal minimum wage was raised? So, what has happened over time is that the productivity gains, people working so hard are being siphoned off from the average worker and going to the top. So CEO pay has exploded. Um, there has been corporate malfeasance, there is money in politics where all these corporations are lobbying in DC and getting tax breaks. Um, billionaires and multimillionaires are getting tax breaks. So the system has been tilted towards the rich and tilted away from working people. Um, and there are many examples of that. Um, and we, I think what's so important that Bob likes to emphasize is this idea that there's a free market where it's just a market out there in nature and that, you know, it just is what it is, and there's supply and demand, and it just meets in the middle where it's supposed to, is not actually the case. The case is that the government is here to set up the rules, to set up the boundaries, to set up the scaffolding around how this system works. And we have the ability to set it up in different ways, emphasize different policies. Um, and we vote to have electeds who represent what we think should be done to the population, right? To the populace, to most people. And so a lot of the policies that have been set up are not helping uh working people and the poor. And so this gap has gotten more and more drastic between what certain people are earning, right, and what certain people and how wealth is being um uh exacerbated, right? Wealth is wealth begets wealth. And so the wealthier are getting wealthier. Um, we're about to have our first trillionaire. Um, and so it's really, if we don't write the the trends that are happening, if we don't pay attention to the causes and where we have levers to adjust these issues, it's gonna get worse. And I'll add one other thing. What Bob has said so eloquently is in these conditions, when you have people who can't pay the bills, I mean, think about it, SNAP benefits are about to be on the cutting block because you know our government is shut down and our Congress can't agree on things. So that is a problem. And when people are facing these dire circumstances and see other people getting richer, they're unsettled, they're frustrated, they're angry. And that allows for someone to come in, they're vulnerable and come in and you know, be a tyrant and convince them that they will be represented. And so that is a very quick and dirty version of what has happened with income inequality and why it's a problem.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Yeah, that's an excellent point. And speaking of trillionaires, I'm sure we've all seen in the news that um Musk is uh asking for a trillion dollar uh uh bonus pay. It's just really mind-boggling. I think somewhere in your um on your website it says something like that um in the old days, uh CEOs made four to six times what their employees did, or something like that. And now it's just like really radically different.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

But yeah, so I can give you a stat, Heather. So CEOs in 2024, they were paid 281 times as much as a typical worker. And in contrast, in 1965, which wasn't actually that long ago, I was born in 77, they were paid 21 times as much as the typical worker. And so the question is, is that CEO that much more productive than the typical worker? I think the answer is no, personally. But so the CEO compensation going up, you know, 1,000% increase compared to a 26% increase for a typical worker's compensation, that is distorted and that is problematic.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Well, thank you. I'm glad you gave the correct statistic there. And um, Heather, I did just want to ask one follow-up question. Obviously, I know you can never squeeze everything into one movie, but I noticed the film didn't address gender and equal pay for equal work. And I just wondered if equitable equitable pay for women is a topic that came up in the class, but for one reason or another didn't end up in the film.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

That's a such an important question. Also, I'm biased, obviously. Um, but yeah, so it definitely comes up at the class. The class is called Wealth and Poverty. And again, this is this large undergraduate course that Bob taught for 20 years almost at UC Berkeley, and it had 750 people in it. And what's so great is you get to see this course in this film, but it doesn't focus on the course as such. It focuses on the teacher, it focuses on the thoughts Professor Reich is having about where his students are and where he is in his life at this critical juncture for the country, for himself. And so the good news is the course is actually offered online for free. If you look on YouTube, Robert Reich, Wealth and Poverty, there is a 14-course um class that is under YouTube courses, and everyone can take it. And um there is definitely a part about um equal pay um related to gender and related to sex. And so, yes, that um that is there. And there we have done, there's been some other films that focused more on the course. One was called Inequality for All. And so, yeah, definitely the course does address it in this film, which by the way is only 71 minutes, right? Um, yeah, it didn't hit on it as such in the film.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Well, thank you for explaining that. And Elliot, how did you begin the process of making the film?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, so Robert Reich likes to call this, you know, when we do some talkbacks now about the film, the a great bait and switch. But the reality was, you know, it was, you know, I come from a news background, and I just wanted to document a point in time that I thought if we didn't document, we'd be lost. And that was just this final semester. So going in, I mean, uh, we had no idea what this film would be. In fact, you know, our best guess, our most ambitious guess would be a short, a short documentary, short, um, a short film. And we shot it as such, but we even know you know, we didn't even know if we would even sustain that. We just thought, well, maybe it's, you know, he has this huge online presence with video. So if nothing else, we could put it into that system. Um, and so we we we filmed it. We didn't really film that much. We filmed a little bit, you know, in terms of if we'd gone in, you know, thinking this could be a feature-length documentary, I think we would have filmed it differently. And I'm not, I asked myself, you know, what must that have done to the film itself? Um, but we went in and we sort of just started documenting it to see what we got. And when we we laid out a rough assembly of the edit, the first edit, and we sort of had you know a little over an hour's worth of material or an hour, 20 minutes, whatever it was, with the expectations that we would cut it down to 20, 25 minutes, and we watched it through, we really felt, wow, there's something that's special here. It it you know, it seems to want to live in a bigger shell than a sort of you know what we initially envisioned. And so that was um, you know, it but at the same time, you know, you know it didn't feel like a 90-minute film, and we worried it was gonna be too short, it was gonna fall on this weird, you know, in-between level of being too long for a short and too short for a long feature length. And so um, but it was it really started with just the idea of like, let's not think about the final product, let's just document this remarkable document, you know, this remarkable man going through this period of time and just see what we have. Um, and I, you know, working with Heather and having you know Bob's own online distribution, you know, where allowed us to sort of have the confidence that you know, if we filmed something, it would see it would probably find an audience in some form. And we didn't have to overly concern ourselves with what a specific investor wanted or a distributor. We just went in to make to, you know, not even but I say to make a film, but even that is a little more prospective than it really was, you know, just to just to film this period of his life.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Well, I think the length works really well, and I think these days people do have shorter attention spans, so a shorter feature is uh, you know, a good thing. Um Heather, I'm wondering, um, was this film shot exclusively during the one semester? Because obviously it sounds like you went in and just started filming and you weren't exactly sure what the length would be, or things like that. So after you decided it was going to be a longer film, did you go back and you know film some other things? We didn't.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

It was just the one semester, and that was Elliot's beautiful vision from the start. It uh he said, and I have text messages to prove it, um, why don't we shoot at the beginning and then we shoot in the at the end? And so what we ended up doing was we did his first day, uh, and we ended up doing something in the middle, and then we ended up doing the eve before his final class, where we have this great scene of him in a classroom where no one's behind him, this large auditorium at UC Berkeley called Wheeler. And so he's in there um before his final class, which then you can see teeming with people who are in the aisles and you know, squished into all their seats with all their smiles and open eyes and laptops and all of it. So it was indeed one semester, and it was his final semester teaching that class.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Yeah, it's very touching the footage you got at the end. So, um, Elliot, what was the most surprising thing that happened during the making of the documentary for you personally?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

You know, it's it's uh it's a great question. And you know, I I guess what's been most surprising, and I don't want to dodge it, but I think what's been most surprising is the distribution. Is that is that sort of am I not answering the question, or is that okay to say that? Um you know, it's it I mean that making the film, it was I guess, you know, surprising about making the film. I mean, I knew he was a special person, I knew he was very thoughtful and smart and all that. Uh and I think you mentioned uh, you know, that it's a portrayal of him, or it's it's a version of him that you don't really see in a lot of his public pronouncements. I think it's it's vulnerable, it's introspective, I mean, you know, it's it's um it's emotional. You know, he does have that as well, but but I think that the level that that that he shared with us at it going through that semester is a little different. So I guess for the filming part of it, uh just the level of of I would say courage he had to be so open with his emotions as he processed what was a very complicated period of his life. Um and to and to allow us to to share that and to trust us. I mean, he he hadn't he has no edit had a no editorial role in the making of this film. He didn't see the film um until two weeks before it premiered um at DC Docs. And so, you know, uh to just to let cameras follow him and not know what it was gonna be, and just you know, show up for these interviews and be present and answer the questions and show be you know candid about how he was feeling, I think was I mean, I hope, you know, you always hope that as a storyteller that somebody would do that, but the level that he would he did that was I guess was surprising to me. I mean, what's been very, very surprising also is just how this film has been received and the theatrical distribution and that whole run. And I think it's um, you know, we're we're yeah, we've that's that's been a that's been in many ways just a big as big a surprise considering you know the state of the of the film business and the movie business and in general. And it's been, I think, for all of us associated with the film a real source of hope. Uh that maybe that you know that there still are people that want to go into a theater and watch a film together and experience it and talk about it. So that's also been a wonderful surprise.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Well, yeah, that's a great thing. I'm glad you've had that experience. That's terrific. Um, Heather, in addition to Robert's concerns about income equality, he's also dealing with his own mortality in the film. And I wonder what lessons you hope the audience will take from that.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah, so well, I hope people see it and they take, you know, different things. Um I hope they see themselves and question, you know, where they are and feel buoyed by it and feel um comforted that someone else who we know as, you know, this rock star thinker and this incredibly prolific writer, and someone who can draw cartoons and he's funny, but he too grapples with what so many of us grapple with with age, right? And this disconnect between what he says is the man he sees in the pictures versus from. Back in the day versus the man he sees in the mirror. And so I again, this candor that he expresses in life, which Elliot and I have seen working with him, and I've seen working with him for years, we tried to get more of that on camera. Now, some people have said it doesn't feel that personal, you know, we didn't see baby pictures of him, for example. So it's not a biopic, right? It's not let's travel through time and look at this man's life. It's more, let's, it's it's an intimate film with where he is today, um, and how strange it is to get old and to watch yourself get old and to what and to feel yourself going through chapters and the the cognitive dissonance um that one feels, you know, when you go to a college reunion or graduate, you know, a retirement party, these kinds of things. So I think different viewers will take it, it obviously in different ways and play with it in their own minds and hearts how they want to. But it's I think it's it's very special for this person to be so honest with how he's grappling with things. And he gets emotional in the film, but not too emotional. Um, and being able to hear that and what he's going through, I think, is just helpful and um elucidating.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Well, thank you, Elliot. Um, I guess, you know, um we've already touched on the reasons for this, including the fact that, you know, initially you weren't really planning to make a feature and it's not a biographical film. But as a viewer, when I watched it, I was aware there wasn't a ton about his personal life. I mean, I'm talking about things like, you know, does he have kids and is he married? And, you know, those kinds of things. And I was just wondering if that was off limits or if you just, you know, it just you were just, you know, really focused on other aspects of his life.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, I think that I mean, that's a good question. It's one that comes up um, you know, with some frequency. Uh, you know, it's I I really wanted to not tell the story of this person per se as just sort of a you know, I mean, I I I I I wanted it to be focused. I really wanted it, you know, and I think because it started off as a a short film, you know, that you know, how much other space would we get into? We don't, you know, we don't do a we don't follow along students in the class either, or you know, the things that you might expect, you know, we might expect if we had done um you know, done this as a you know from a feature length from the beginning. But I I guess I'm also I think we have so much of the personal in this world that it feels like that's what is the intimate element, is if you can get behind the scenes and understand who they are by here their family is, and and I really wanted to just take a different tact. I wanted to to live in a different world with this film. I wanted it to be about his ongoing, you know, sort of his own uh love for teaching and and what that means. And I felt like the more the you know other elements that sort of round out the Wikipedia page, you know. I mean, you can, you know, anybody who's curious can go search him up and find out all sorts of stuff about him. And I guess I was just less interested in that. Um, and it was a choice, you know. I mean, I think other people would have made a different choice, and I'm not, I can't say it was the right choice, but for me it was. And I I really wanted it to be about, I wanted to see this story through a rather narrow lens and then to fill that picture as best I could. And I really wanted it to be about this semester, you know. His, you know, if I think if you know, if his personal life had really been impacted in this by the semester or really, you know, came up organically, then we would have touched upon that. Just like when he's packing up his office, he's referencing his past experiences. But that was organic to the world that we were living in. And the confines, I think, that I wanted to set out from the beginning was really just to document this semester and what was coming up in it naturally. And it didn't come up naturally, those elements didn't come up naturally, and I didn't want to force them in just to sort of fill out what would be sort of more of a biographical sketch.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Yeah, well, that that all makes sense, and obviously it's a very strong film, so it works. Um, and Heather, could you talk a little bit about how long your team spent editing the film?

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Of course. So we finished the film at the end of the semester, and we played around with it for a while trying to figure out what we had, right? We still didn't know at the beginning of um the editing process that it would for sure be a short film or um something longer. So we played around with it for a while, and then our terrific editor, Josh Melrod, really took, I don't know, Elliot, what, seven, seven months? I mean, he was remarkable to work with, and he and Elliot worked so beautifully together, and he um really helped us see this is what, you know, if we're doing, you know, he and Elliot spent a long time figuring out if it could work as um a feature-length documentary. Um, and so Josh um was phenomenal, and he I think was incredibly efficient. I think he worked, he connected with Elliot, saw what we had, and they came up with a vision and it was pretty rapid as far as these things go. We don't we didn't have hundreds of hours of footage, you know. We had 40 hours or something of footage, and so much was in the same room. And so I think his skill and his talent and his interest in consuming what we had done was so palpable and so incredible to work with. So he and Elliot, I'm speaking for you here, Elliot, they just melded together and it was done rather quickly as these things go.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah, I would I would add that you know it we knew going in we were gonna roughly follow the arc of the semester. So it does. And so it was really about trying to you know get a overall feel for the film, the interstitial elements, the musical choice of jazz, which we both you know thought was was ideal. And and Josh did a wonderful job picking these tracks. And originally they were tempted tracks. Um, you know, they're very famous jazz musicians that that sort of populate it, and we were gonna we were gonna go in and try to you know get a composer to sort of fill it out, especially when it was originally under the budget for a for a short film. Uh, but when we went to it becoming a feature and we knew that the musical elements and you know that the overall tone was gonna be so essential, we went to Heather and we we hired a music supervisor, Heather Guibert, who did a wonderful job in helping us license that footage. Uh sorry, that the the license the music. And I, you know, so it's it was really, it was, you know, the the overall arc of the film was pretty much set in that it was it was sequential, it was you know, it was a linear sort of walk through the semester, but it was really trying to get the most out of each of these elements. The the the interviews, the uh the moments in the classroom. I mean, there's a lot of footage of that, like you know, what would pop, what would what would help make the case, not just for what he was teaching, because as Heather said, there have been other films about what he teaches, and he's you know, and the whole course is available online, but really trying to find these moments in the in the lectures that amplified the overall themes that were coming through through the other elements of the film, and then weaving that together and really trying to find the tone um and the pacing uh to have it hit.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yeah, well, you did a great job. And I'm wondering, Elliot, if you could talk a little bit about how you finance the film, especially since you initially intended for it to be a short, which would, you know, typically have a uh smaller budget, and then it turned into feature, which would typically have a longer budget. I mean, not but a big bigger budget, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, no, for sure. Um I mean, really, I mean, Heather's nonprofit uh funded this film, and it was, you know, we went there because it was really going to be about a, you know, so it was gonna be, you know, originally just documenting him. And so it's let's just film him, so let's just get that. And that seems like something regardless of what we were gonna do with it, was in the mission of the nonprofit uh in the quality media civic action, which funded this. And Heather can talk more about how that's all set up and and that organization. But you know, it was it was a budget for a short film, um, that you know, and the and the filming part of it was rather modest, as we explained. Um, you know, what it didn't require a lot of travel. We're local, um, it was in Berkeley, the entire all of it was shot within a mile or two of each other when you you know factor in the you know, the the the the Saul's diner and and you know, where you know, where there's a scene there and the classroom and the homes and all then the offices. But it was really in a very small geographic area, and there were these condensed shoots. So it was rather modest in terms of the filming part of it, although we had multiple cameras um and wonderful cinematographers. But it was uh, you know, and so we we went through that and then you know, we had to, as we explained, extend the editing and extend the film uh in the music licensing, um, and then all of the post and all that. But um but the funding did come and was very fortunate about that, you know, in sort of these different waves from the nonprofit.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Well, that's great because that can be such a challenge. Heather, is there anything that you wanted to add about the nonprofit?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Um, just to say that I mean it was so in line with our mission to talk about the urgency of education and to basically one of our approaches, we describe it as a nesting dolls approach. So we say a lot of the same things in different formats and different shapes. Um, and I think to make a film that tests um distribution, right? And how is how are we going to get people together to be focusing on these issues and the success we've had with getting people into theaters and meeting up in the lobby afterwards and discussing local issues, um, and this emphasis that Bob makes in the film and that the film makes in and of itself, basically, about the power of public education in a democracy and for um our population and for the sake of upward mobility is incredibly important. And so it just made sense for the nonprofit to fund it, especially when it was a short. Um, but again, as Elliot said, it was we did it in a pretty cost-effective way. Um the music was more expensive than we thought, but I didn't really um yeah, we we're very fortunate to have been able to fund it. And it wasn't all that expensive when all was said and done.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Well, that's great. And yeah, it's very smart to make a film close to home and you know, keep the budget low. And Heather, could you uh tell us what was the biggest obstacle you had to overcome to make the film?

SPEAKER_02 34:59

So I didn't, I mean, this sounds so again fortunate and privileged. I didn't there weren't huge obstacles. I think because I had such a sense of trust in Elliot and his vision, and such a sense of um understanding of how Robert Reich is on camera and in the world, that there wasn't like, oof, some this is risky, or you know, I don't I wouldn't say there were big obstacles. I think there was a challenge in trying to um make something worthy of the moment. I think there were challenges in trying to figure out what distribution would look like. We got rejected from all but one film festival. So DC Docs was remarkable to us, and we had a terrific premiere there. Um, but so that I'd say was frustrating. But Abrahama Rama, who is our phenomenal distributor and collaborative partner on so much, really believed in us and said, you know, who cares about the festivals? Which I didn't really believe them when they said that. I was thinking, oh, you say that to all, you say that to all the neophyte filmmakers, I'm sure, who get rejected from everything. Um, but so I don't there, I'm there weren't obstacles as such. There were dips and there were, you know, stressful moments, but I really felt that this project from the beginning, again, thanks so much to Elliot, was so clear. It was like we're gonna tell the story of this person whose story deserves to be heard in this new way. Um, and let's make it happen. And we were able to overcome the, you know, the blips and the bumps and all that.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Well, I really appreciate you sharing this. I'm sure other filmmakers will appreciate you being candid about, you know, not getting into all the film festivals you, you know, initially um thought you might be in. So that's always helpful information, especially because the film is getting out there. And on that note, Elliot, can you please talk about your journey getting the film out into the world, starting with the premiere?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, you know, I want to be very, you know, I've worked in a lot of different forms and I want to be very obvious, you know, you know, candid that obviously making a film about someone like Robert Reich with his reach gives incredible advantages. Um, you know, so no matter how what the film ended up being, you know, we knew that he could share it on his social media and millions of people would at least hear about it. So I you know, I want to be you know honest about having worked on films for which or projects for which that wasn't the case, you know, it's you know, it's a lot and so many wonderful films that are made that don't come with that built-in advantage. That being said, um, and I don't know whether why this maybe it was because of that too, or seen as a celebrity vehicle, whatever, as Heather said, we got rejected from everywhere um except for DC Docs. You know, I mean, it even but you know, being a native San Franciscan and having this be in Berkeley, not having in the San Francisco Film Festival, I mean, you know, it wasn't just you know Tribeca and you know and Sundance and South by and Teleride, it was a lot of other ones as well. And so, you know, um, but I really you know, I believed that that there was a message. Uh, I've worked in other mediums where that's been the case and where it's sort of like things that you know, I just felt like people were missing something that that Bob is beloved. And I felt that, you know, this film, which I I think has a hopeful streak to it, um, it's not Pollyanish, but it's hopeful about the future that that this could really resonate. So as Heather said, we got into DC Docs and we played that opening day, and that was wonderful. And it was sort of you know wonderful to be in DC, uh, where you know Bob had served as Secretary of Labor and such. Uh, and then we then we got um a wonderful one-week run at the quad cinema in the village in New York City. And and we, you know, we it's a you know relatively small theaters, but we packed them and we packed and they packed, they they really had an incredible week. And I forget the exact week, you know, forget number, uh, but that that week stretched into eight weeks or something of renewals at the quad. Uh, we went into Berkeley. It was we even had to sort of it's Ty Boyd, who owns the last movie theater in Berkeley, will tell you. Um, he had to sort of be convinced about the film, even though it was Robert Rice and even though it was Berkeley. Uh, and it's just been an incredible success there. It's uh it's just you know done incredible box office numbers there. And and then from there, it's just we really wanted to, you know, I I'm I'm a big believer, and if members, other members of the film team are big believers, that you know, the best place to see a film is in a movie theater. And we really wanted to use this film to try to test whether people could come to theaters. And and we've just played, I don't know what the latest statistics are, and it's 45 states, you know, like 90% of theaters that we've gone into have extended their runs. Um, we've played red states and blue states, we've played rural areas and urban areas.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Um and 300 theaters.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah. And it's just been it's just been really exceptional. And we're still booking theaters now in well into January of next year. So we don't we we really want to let that run go as much as we can. And now we're moving into non-theatrical, which we're gonna run ourselves. Um, you know, we're we're gonna, you know, and we're already getting a lot of people that want to play this at their universities, libraries, for their social groups, you know, religious institutions, things like that. And so we hopefully that will be a robust run as well. And we'll eventually go to, you know, video on demand. We, you know, we're gonna have a sales agent, see whether the streaming service platforms. But I do think that this film shows that people will go to theaters and will watch something, and that there is a real hunger for people to gather in community, in person, to have shared experiences. A lot of people want to have discussions. So we do we have done discussion groups after the film. The fact that it's 71 minutes means that you can have a play, you play the film and have a talk back that doesn't stretch to two or two and a half hours. So we've done some of that. Uh, you know, there's been a lot of informal people meeting in the lobby, as Heather said, you know, talking afterwards. And so we've we've we made that we decision with Abrahama. They were really enthusiastic about this early on to try to prioritize in-person viewing with the understanding that not everybody can do that. There's you know, a lot of places that are don't have theaters. Um, there are people that for various reasons of health or otherwise can't make it to a theater. So we are determined we will get it out there in ways that people can watch it, you know, you know, digitally or you know, visually, you know, uh at home. But we really, you know, we've we've been very lucky and and you know, and part of our hope all along was that we would use the advantages, the built-in advantages I said, of this film and Robert Rice's stature and presence to at least challenge some of the assumptions around the movie business that um that you know that I uh you know the documentaries are you know sort of you know are hard to get people to see, um, that you know people don't want to go to theaters, you know, and hopefully we can share this experience and show that look, it's you know, you don't have to go into all the you know into the festivals and there is a real hunger. And you know, again, very cognizant of the advantages we have, but also want to try to see what we can learn that can be extended to other filmmakers and try to, you know, reassess or or or challenge some of the conventional wisdoms.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Well, Elliot, I really appreciate you sharing all of this with our audience, who of course is mostly filmmakers, because um, you know, it just shows how you can just roll your sleeves up and get the film out into the world yourself, even if it didn't get into a major film festival or things like that. So um it's super informative. And Heather, could you please talk a little bit about what it has been like to share the film with audiences and hear their reaction and so forth?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, I thought of one other when you asked me about obstacles. One thing was Bob didn't see the film until two weeks before it premiered. We couldn't get him, he was like, I mean, it's about me, and do I want I don't know, it was hard to get him to see the film, but then he saw it and he was, you know, just the student faces. He couldn't get over how we captured um the student faces, and that's what he kept saying. So that was one other obstacle I should have thought of. Um, what has it been like to share it with audiences? I mean, exceptional. 50,000 people, more than that, have seen this film, and I think the reception has been so heartening, including at a time that's so hard for filmmaking, that's so hard for democracy, that's so hard for so many people. Um, and so it's been it's exceeded our expectations in terms of just the numbers that Elliot referenced, in terms of the qualitative feedback we're getting, the comments on our Substack. We have a Substack for the film, which has been a terrific way to interact with our viewers, people who have gone, people who haven't gone, who people have heard about it, people who have questions after seeing it, you know, what happened to the cabinet chair is a common one. And you all have to see the film to know what that means. Um, but yeah, so we have this, you know, we have a website, thelastclassfilm.com, which a lot of people do. I mean, filmmakers do, but our first ask on the website is sign up to experience Professor Reich's final course. So it's really get involved with us around the film. It's not just here's the where they're it's actually harder to see where to see the film than it is to sign up to join us. And we designed that on purpose. Um, and so audiences feel more connected after seeing it, more hopeful. Um, many people are seeing it more than once. We had someone say, I drove 10 hours to see the film with my family, but that's what happens when your love language is economics. Um it's been incredible. Um, and this community screening phase. Where people are signing up and they're saying, I want to show it in my local hotel, I want to show it at a theater down the street, I want to show it um, you know, at a university. It's been uh a remarkable influx of interest. And so it's all been incredibly positive. And it feels very gratifying to make something that people want to see and that people want others to see. So we feel grateful for that.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

Oh, yeah, it's just a great. And um, Elliot, if there's anything you want to share about your experience, you know, it's always um exciting if you've made a film and you get to watch it with the audience, if you have anything to add, and and also if you could talk about where audiences can currently see the film and how they can get that information.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Yeah, I mean, look, it's just it's just there's nothing better than just watch your film with an audience. I mean, that's what it's made for, is to be seen. And having other people see it and knowing that they're experiencing in ways that you could never predict or that you would never that would be different from you, is really what I think you know, this the art form is all about. So that's all been very wonderful. I mean, I would say that, you know, and you know, we're we're still trying to find ways to book it into theaters. If people, as Heather mentioned, the lastclassfilm.com, our website, there's listings of where it's currently playing, where we'll be playing in the future. There's also a way to sign up uh you know to our newsletter so you know you can know when it we go through their different windowing when we eventually get to video on demand. There's a way to sign up to host a screening, um, either trying to bring it to your local theater or to you know to to or to do a non-theatrical type of screening, like at a, as I said, a university or places like that. All that is very available on the website. Um but I I would I would say I think that you know this idea, and this is something that really was from the start, that you know, our prem we really looked at our premiere as not the end of the process of the making of the film, but really a midpoint. And the same people that have made the film, we mentioned Josh L. Melrod, who's the editor and a producer on the film. I mean, he's still involved in answering people's emails um as they as they uh yeah, as they as they write in about wanting to screen it. I mean, uh Meredith De Salazar, another producer on the film, she's very involved in this in the non-theatrical. And Ali is who's um who is a produ or associate producer on the film is very invited, designed the website in all of this. And so I think that we're really we're really seeing that the film team is really part of the distribution, and that it's there isn't this sort of one phase and another phase. It was really from the beginning all the way through till now and into the future. And what rather than trying to stick to a plan, and no matter what happens, we're we're constantly iterating, just like making the film where you're in an edit and you see something, it's not quite working, and you try something else and you rearrange that same spirit of filmmaking we are taking to the distribution. And I think that there's this sense, there was a sense for a long time that you know you try to make this film as best as you can, and then you sort of got it to some place that you could hand it over. And there's still, you know, for some rare films that that works, and you know, I think that's still a model, but it's certainly not the only model, and I think increasingly is a very infrequent model that really to be a filmmaker these days is to also really be thinking about how you could build engagement, how you could build audience, how you can get people to sign up to hear more about it. Um, and and that you know, hopefully the film team that makes the film could be just as committed into putting it out into the world.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

Well, I think this is such an important message for our indie filmmakers that, yeah, it's like a good probably year or so at least promoting your film these days, oftentimes, to get it out there. So I think um I was gonna ask about the streaming deal, um, Heather, but I think um we've covered that. There's no streaming deal yet.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Is that I liked that you were saying the streaming deal is, oh, there were one.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm sure there will be.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

But if Jeff Bezos comes knocking, I mean, I'm kind of putting this out there in the universe. I don't know if we'll be able to say yes, you know, just because of the whole wealth and income inequality thing. So we'll have to see what streamers are interested in.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

Yeah, uh, certainly uh politics play a role in these things uh these days, don't they? So um, well, moving on, um, Elliot, what advice would you give to first-time filmmakers?

SPEAKER_00 49:41

I would say that um the world is changing so fast that listen to what other people have to say and you know, be open to a lot of advice, but really believe in yourself. And that thinking about the distribution and the what kind of built-in audience you might have to the film and build that through the production process. You know, think about okay, like how these people are really excited about them making a film, keep them updated, build build your own distribution in mind. And I think that I I'm a big believer that sort of direct to audience um distribution. You know, we see this with Substack, with newsletters, we you know, where where people are are publishing themselves and finding an audience and there's a marketplace. I think this is increasingly going to be the future. And it's scary and I I you know it's it creates a lot of uncertainty. Um, but it also I think creates a lot of opportunity that you know by the traditional metrics, you know, this film would have gone nowhere. Um, and now we're, you know, well, it's it's going almost everywhere. And again, I want to be very uh you know cognizant of the advantages that we have with with you know with Bob in the film and all that. But I also do think that it it speaks to a larger movement that um you know we have there are all sorts of gatekeepers, we have a consolidation in the in the media universe uh that's very concerning, but there also is all sorts of new technology that allows for you to reach people directly and market directly and find your niche. And I would just say, you know, believe in that. Um you know, think about that as the job of filmmaking as well, is to is to build an engagement around the film and to really start with that in mind from the very beginning. You know, it's uh not wait to you know, you've gone through the sound mix and the color correct and you're sort of wrapping it up and go, okay, what do we do now? It's just oftentimes in making the film, you're gonna be coming across people that are interested in it, you know, cultivating those people, letting them know, giving them a sense of buy-in, even. It could be people that are funding the film, it could be people that are in the film, but really create a start creating a community that could could sort of embrace the film once it's made, cultivate that and and just be very open to new ideas and and trust yourself. I mean, it's that's sort of the world we're living in. And you know, you know, I think there was, it's again, I said it there's a lot of uncertainty in it, and it can be very daunting. And you know, it's maybe it's not the best way to do things, but it it's where we are now. And I think that you know, there's a way to embrace that uh in in in ways that can really allow allow films to succeed where otherwise, you know, somebody saying no at an early stage would sort of suffocate its its future. And here, you know, there's many, many different ways to get out into the world.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

Well, thank you so much for that. And um to use our remaining time well, Heather, I'm wondering um for anyone who would like to learn more about income equality, what do you suggest? I know there's just a lot of resources that you know your team has uh made available.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Yeah, so I think the easiest thing is to go to YouTube and type in Robert Reich and income inequality, or Robert Reich and wealth inequality, or Robert Reich and billionaires. We have videos on should billionaires exist. Um and the answer is sure, but we need to change the system so there are not so many of them, and it's not so unequal. Um, and so yeah, I think what what's the nice thing about what we've tried to do through both inequality media and inequality media civic action is make this topic digestible and to bring a lot of statistics to people that could be overwhelming, but we try to make them real and tangible and add a lot of bespoke motion graphics to our uh content so that people can take it in. So, you know, we share things like the richest 1% in America have grown 34% in terms of the wealth, the share of wealth they own, hitting 50 trillion. And at the same time as that is happening, the bottom 50% of households has declined in terms of the chunk of the wealth pie they own. So it has declined 26%, adjusted for inflation. And that means they own 4.1 trillion. So the bottom 50% own 4.1 trillion, and the top 1% owns 50 trillion. I mean, it's this kind of stuff. And so this is the kind of statistics that is featured throughout our videos and on Robert Reich's social pages, as well as those of Inequality Media, Civic Action, and Inequality Media. Um, so my advice is to search online, and you could also sign up for Robert Reich's Substack. His latest book is a memoir. It's called Coming Up Short, A Memoir of My America. If people are in the mood to read a book, he talks about the history of income inequality and kind of how we got to where we are today through his eyes as a child, as an undergraduate, as a secretary of labor, as a parent. Um, and so any resource related to inequality media and Robert Reich is going to be hitting on this topic for sure.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Heather, um, while we're on the topic, would you like to share um the social media handles or the websites that you know you have that are associated both with the work you do with Robert and with the film?

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Yep. So the film's website is the lastclassfilm.com. And from that you can get to our Substack, which has over 60,000 people engaging with our content around the film. Um, and then the social media handles are at RBReich. Um those are across Instagram and he's Robert Reich on Facebook. Um, and then at IM Civic Action and at Inequality Media are the ones for the two nonprofits, and they're all interconnected and they're all listed in his bios. Um, so yeah, so if you go online and we're on all the platforms, I mean the team at Inequality Media and Inequality Media Civic Action are exceptional. So we put out our content on Substack Notes, we put it out on Meta and all over the place in terms of Facebook and Instagram. We're still on Mastodon. We're on Blue Sky. So it's pretty much everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

I see. And Heather, in at the beginning, when we introduced you, we mentioned your work with um coffee clock clutch. Would you like to just take a moment and tell us, tell the audience what that's about as well?

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Oh, yeah. So this is fun for multiple reasons. One, it was Elliot Kirschner here's idea. So he was at Saul's um, this fabulous cafe, Delhi, here in Berkeley. And Bob and I were chatting about the news of the week, and he said, You should record this for Substack. Just try recording it. I think it's great. I think you all are talking about, you know, the news of the week and your opinions and what's happening and how you're processing. It's, you know, a similar, I would say, Elliot, version to what your vision was for the film. Um, and so we put it on Substack, and it is a podcast. It's a weekly podcast that comes out every Saturday. It's called The Coffee Clutch. It's now on Substack and YouTube. So we've moved to YouTube as well. Um, and it's Bob and I just discuss what's happening. How are you feeling? What's the news of the week? What is a story we haven't seen that we should be elevating, or what's a story that's been wrongly characterized? What are the frameworks that we should be thinking of? How do you stay hopeful in a time of such grim reality? Um, and so those are kind of the things we grapple with, but in a casual style of two colleague friend colleagues, for allegs, having coffee. And so it's called the Coffee Clotch YouTube. It's also on all the places where you can get your pods. Um, but thank you, Heather, for giving a shout out from pod to pod. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. And um, Elliot, for anyone listening who thinks income equality is a problem that needs to be solved, do you have any um specific things you suggest that they do?

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Yeah, I mean, I think that the I mean, I think that the problems that we're facing as a as a country, as a world, you know, as a society, um, you know, they're multifaceted and people have different expertise in some and and and are more or are they more present in other people's lives than in others. Um, I think that the answer for all of it is is is really to be engaged and in building community. I think it's it's finding people to work with, to come together, to to give your time to local causes, to national causes. And I think there's a sense that um, yeah, it's you know, voting is important, obviously, and political campaigns are important. But I think what this film hopefully shows is is education, whether it's formal education in the classroom or just education through life, it requires being engaged and seeking out people to learn from, seeking out activities to do to be part of the community. And and I would say that you know, income inequality is a is a major issue, obviously, in this world and and specifically in the United States as well. And and you know, but the approach for that is really um it's really about trying to elevate this as a concern uh for policymakers and and to find ways to do that you know through the democratic process. And and that is voting, but it's also organizing, it's protesting, it's all sorts of other things, uh, and it's just engaging in the kind of dialogue that is essential to civil discourse. So I I think it's a matter of of really being engaged. I mean, hopefully people see the film and are inspired after seeing it to seek out other opportunities to be part of their community. And what and what's been really wonderful, and what I think what's helped propel some of the you know the engagement with the film at theaters is that people are, you know, they're coming, they're buying tickets in ones and twos, but they're also coming with a group of people that is already interested in these issues, and then they watch the film and they use that as a way to bring themselves together and find new people who are in their communities who are concerned about similar things. So I you know, I I guess it's um, you know, it's whether, as I said, whether it's a classroom, whether it's a movie theater, whether it's the town square, uh, just find ways to come together and and engage in the hard work of democracy.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:20

Well, thank you for that. Well, we don't have too much time left, but in the time that remains, Heather, is there anything um you would like to add that I haven't already asked you about?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

No, I just want to say thank you on behalf of Elliot and me and Professor Reich and the whole film team for having us on The Art of Film Funding. Um, and also I'm so excited to see Kusama Infinity, your film, Heather lens, because I took my kiddo to see um an exhibit of hers at SF Moma a year ago, and I didn't realize you'd made that film. So I'm so excited to see that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

Well, thank you so much. That's very kind of you. And it's our pleasure to have you on the show. And and Elliot, is there anything you would like to add that we haven't already discussed?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

No, just to echo Heather's thanks. I mean, it's it's it's really an honor to be able to talk about this film, but also to talk about film more generally. I mean, I'm I love it, I love going to it, I love watching it, I love making it. And I think that the world needs film um now more than ever. And and we, you know, there's a lot of struggles on the business model and and all of that, but I don't think any of that takes away from the essential human connection that film brings. Um, and that's why I remain hopeful and confident that it will endure because it is so when people, you know, it's hard getting people to see it or clicking on it or finding out how to fund it. But when people actually watch it, uh they're moved, whatever age or demographic or where they live. I mean, it is a moving experience to see a film, especially in a in a room with others. And so I I remain hopeful that that endures as a essential part of the human experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

Well, yes, I agree with you. And yeah, especially these days with so many cuts to funding, especially for documentary. So um I'm you know glad you were able to make your film and share the message. And um I just want to thank you both again so much for being here with us today, taking time out of your busy schedule to discuss the film and share your wisdom with us. And um, yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

All right, and thanks everyone for listening. Thanks, Heather. Bye.