Award winning filmmaker Jeremy Workman discusses his successful indie release of SECRET MALL APARTMENT - Hosted by Heather Lenz

Our special guest this week is the award-winning documentary filmmaker Jeremy Workman, whose work has been Emmy Nominated and Oscar short-listed. His films include LILY TOPPLES THE WORLD (Discovery), DECIDING VOTE (The New Yorker), THE WORLD BEFORE YOUR FEET (Greenwich Entertainment / Kino Lorber), MAGICAL UNIVERSE (IFC Films), and most recently SECRET MALL APARTMENT. Secret Mall Apartment premiered at the 2024 SXSW Film Festival and went on to win 9 major film festival awards. It was released theatrically in over 250 cities in March 2025, becoming the fourth-highest grossing documentary since 2020 (excluding music concert films). Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, Secret Mall Apartment was even parodied on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. Executive Produced by actor Jesse Eisenberg, the film is now being developed as both a stage play and a scripted movie. Today we’ll discuss the film and Jeremy’s success making movies that take us deep inside extraordinary worlds.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Today we are joined by our guest host, filmmaker Heather Lenz, best known for directing and producing the Sundance documentary Kusama Infinity. Our special guest this week is the award-winning documentary filmmaker Jeremy Workman, whose work has been Emmy nominated and Oscar shortlisted. His films include Lily Topples the World, Deciding Vote, The World Before Your Feet, Magical Universe, and most recently Secret Mall Apartment. Secret Mall Apartment premiered at the 2024 South by Southwest Film Festival and went on to win nine major film festival awards. It was released theatrically in over 250 cities in March 2025, becoming the fourth highest grossing documentary since 2020, excluding music concert films. Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, Secret Mall Apartment was even parodied on the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, executive produced by actor Jesse Eisenberg. The film is now being developed as both a stage play and a scripted movie. Today we'll discuss the film and Jeremy's success making movies that take us deep inside extraordinary worlds.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Well, thank you so much, Claire, for the introduction. And thank you, Jeremy, for taking time out of your schedule to join us today. For anyone who isn't um familiar with the Secret Mall apartment, can you please tell us what it's about in your own words?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Of course. And thanks for having me. Thanks, Claire. Thanks, Heather. Uh, so exciting to be here. Um, Secret Mall Apartment is a super fun one. It's a crazy bonkers story. Um, so in early 2000, like the early 2000s, uh specifically 2003, these eight, you know, young Rhode Islanders were mad about a mall that was being built in their hometown, Providence, Rhode Island. And they were mad because it was like, you know, a terrible kind of situation, gentrification situation, and it leveled part of their neighborhood. So they were really angry about this mall. So they decided to do something. So they snuck into the mall one day in 2003, and somehow they found a secret space um that was not, you know, part of like the stores, not really on any blueprints, kind of in the in the infrastructure of the architecture. And they, it was 750 square feet, and they decided to turn it into their own special condo, their secret apartment, as some sort of act of like, you know, standing up to this mall that had come into their neighborhood. They kept it going, this secret apartment, for four years, and they filmed everything along the way. And it's this remarkable, crazy story with crazy, crazy footage that they filmed. And I'm really fortunate and lucky and thrilled and honored that I was the filmmaker that got to turn this into a documentary. A lot of people had been chasing this movie for so many years. So I was really pumped when I was able to kind of, you know, convince everybody to let me make the documentary.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Well, you did an amazing job, and it is just an extraordinary story. It's super fun to watch this film. And how did you first hear about this story?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

It's it's so crazy because it's like one of those things where, you know, it's like these kind of like serendipity of life kind of things. I was in Athens, Greece. Um, I was filming for another documentary that was mentioned, you know, in our intro, Lily Topples the World. And Lily is the world's greatest domino toppler. She's the most acclaimed domino toppler on planet earth. And her videos on YouTube have been seen, you know, practically a trillion times. If anybody of your listeners have seen uh domino videos like on YouTube or TikTok, it's probably Lily. So I was making a film on her in and I was in Greece, and the Lily was like doing a collaboration with the creator of the Rubik's Cube, Erno Rubik, and I was filming everything, and the building that we were in was covered in masking tape art. Okay, so this is artwork where some where like you use masking tape to, you know, create like these incredible images on the facades of walls and buildings. And it turned out that the per the artist behind the tape art was Michael Townsend, who is was the guy in the mall, was the was the person that like was the ringleader of this whole crazy mall story. And he and I met in Athens and hung out, and I was out there filming, and he was out there doing his tape art, and we ended up just spending a lot of time over a a week and got to know each other. We realized very soon that we like were very like-minded, had a lot of same sensibilities. And he told me, he was like, Hey, I was the guy that lived in the mall. And I had no idea what he was talking about whatsoever. I had never heard this story. I'm not from Providence. And lo and behold, he showed me footage and I was just kind of blown away. I couldn't believe this was real. And then I spent the next, probably the next year trying to convince him and all the other eight participants to let me be the person to make the documentary. And it was, you know, not an easy uh process, but um, yeah, that's how it all went.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Wow, that's super interesting. Well, I'm glad they picked you. Um and um, once you got permission, how did you begin the process of making the film? I mean, were you going through archival? Did you start filming? What did you do?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

So, what was incredible about this story, and I I I mentioned this at the top, and people who see the film or have seen the film, they know that, you know, the footage that Michael and the other participants filmed when they were living in the mall, it's just astounding. And, you know, again, I didn't really know there was there was so much footage. They filmed 25 hours of footage when they were inside the mall. And they filmed it with this like crappy camera that they probably bought at Radio Shack for$100. And that, but there was 25 hours. So I sort of, you know, at that point realized, wow, a film could really work here. And if I use that footage, their footage, as the kind of the spine of this story, I could tell this really incredible story about, you know, that was more than just this prank. It was more about all these other things that these artists were doing and why they did it and what was going on in Providence and all this other artwork that they were also doing simultaneously. So I kind of pitched them on that, you know, like a bigger, a bigger context of this story and not just, hey, let's make a documentary about this prank. And they all said yes. And then I set about to raise the money at that point. Um, I didn't go to any companies. I rarely do that with my films. I go to a very inner circle team of people who I've met, you know, in my in my journey who are interested in, you know, funding documentaries or being involved in the financing of documentaries. So I brought this to that that team. And after, you know, about eight or ten different people coming on board on that side, that funding side, we were ready to go. And I started filming, you know, when it right after the pandemic.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Well, that's yeah, it's great. That's cool to hear how much footage they had. Um, and what was the most challenging part of making the film?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Well, it it was it, you know, it was certainly challenging for a few reasons. One was to convince first to convince all eight of these people to let me make the documentary, you know, um, this was a group that was kind of a little bit didn't want, didn't want the spotlight. They didn't want to have a documentary. They loved the idea that, you know, this had become kind of part of Providence urban legend. And they loved the idea that it was kind of, you know, something that was kind of whispered and nobody really knew a lot about. But I had saw this opportunity to bring it back out into the world because a lot of the issues that were at play were about gentrification and about kind of the commodification of our cities. Those are still relevant today, particularly in in Providence. And I also was very interested in all the artwork that these eight people were doing. They weren't just, you know, young troublemakers, they weren't punks, they were these incredibly committed artists who were doing a lot of charitable work at the same time they were in the secret apartment. And a lot of that charitable work was this kind of charitable public artwork where they took no money and got no acclaim. And I started to realize that that was part of the story, and that was um how I convinced them. And I think just looking back, that might have been the hardest part of the process was just convincing them to let to do the movie, and then uh looking at it in this big picture way, so that it wasn't just about a prank, but it was something more. And I think that was probably the biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Well, yeah, it it is a super interesting story with all these layers. And yeah, one thing that really um struck me was how these um factory spaces in America have become these abandoned spaces. And then, of course, the mall came in and properties were demolished, and then now many, many malls are becoming vacant spaces because everyone buys their stuff from Amazon, you know. Um, so it's interesting how it's like cyclical, what's you know, which spaces are used and then abandoned. And so you've touched on how you funded this, that you have this inner circle and you don't typically, it sounds like you don't typically go pitch to streamers, but did you apply for grants or what were you able to just really fund this through your own connections?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, I um I think it was around, you know, in 2014 I did a a small documentary on an outsider artist, and it was called Magical Universe. And yeah, your listeners should should should find it and watch it. It's um it's really an important film for me, and I thought it came out really well. And that was the first time when I decided to not try to go to any companies, not try to uh even go to grants. Um, I think I had kind of felt around that time that I was interested in stories that were unusual, um, maybe different, that I'm not interested at all in celebrities, I'm not interested in true crime. I'm I'm I'm just not interested in a lot of the kind of stories that big production, you know, entities need in terms of, you know, mainstream kind of audiences. That it's just never been why I've been interested in documentaries. I've I'm much more interested in you know, smaller stories about people and w how the ordinary people among us are extraordinary. That's always been something that I'm focused on. So as a result of that, I think I realized kind of early on that I wasn't gonna necessarily walk into a big streamer and say, hey, I'm doing this documentary on this quirky subject, you know, can you will you give me a million dollars? I and it start, I started to realize that the better way for me was to kind of, you know, find like-minded people who were interested in being involved in the process, but maybe don't aren't filmmakers. They're they come, you know, with different backgrounds and inviting them into the process and then making the movie with that team and kind of very much treating that as a team that they are now involved in a way that you know is not how the big streamers work. And um, I think I did that, like I said, I did that first with Magical Universe, and it was very low budget, but that movie ended up doing pretty well. It it was uh acquired by IFC Films, it made it onto Netflix. Um, you know, it suddenly turned a profit, even though it was very small and modest. And that kind of set me on the realization that, like, wow, I could make documentaries and actually try to and actually make a profit, which was oddly something that was not an assumption at all in the documentary community, you know, within the last few years. Most people were were making documentaries on the assumption that they don't make profits and that you need to go to grants or streamers and have somebody write a check because there's, you know, it's not a commercial proposition. So I was always, I'm always interested and have been interested and continue to be in upending that and trying to look at the documentaries that I make as, you know, their value, they're valuable assets. And that's how I make them, and that's how I approach them. And I think about budget and I think about keeping the cost down, and I think about how is this mut this movie gonna find an audience and sell tickets and make its money for my investors.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Well, it's inspiring to hear you talk about this. So I'm, you know, I'm super happy you're here. And so once you started shooting this film, how long did it, how long did that part of the process take?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Uh probably for shooting, uh it was probably about two years. I ended up doing about 30 interviews. As I mentioned previously, there was 25 hours of footage, which, you know, is incredible. And um, you know, really, as I as I indicated, it became the spine of the whole documentary. However, you know, your listeners know that there's you sometimes on archival documentaries, you have hundreds of hours. So it was very limited. And so I had to shoot a lot of interviews. Um, I and I also shot a lot of things that I want where I wanted the movie to um start kind of playing a little bit with genre, playing with, you know, breaking down the kind of the formal structures, kind of being a little bit more playful with presentation. So there's a number of things in the movie, whether it's recreations, whether it's scenes where uh subjects are involved in the in the making of the movie, there's scenes with models, there's all kinds of stuff that's in the movie beyond just this story of the secret apartment, but it all obviously connects.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Right. And um, how long did it take you to edit this film? And were you editing while you were filming, or how did that work?

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I did something that I thought was really interesting. And um, by the way, I'm an editor by cr by profession. You know, that's what I do when I'm not making my own films. I've been an editor my whole life. So I feel really comfortable and confident in the edit room. However, on this movie, I actually was the first time when I brought in another editor to work alongside with me, and that was an editor named Paul Murphy, who lives in Australia, and he's terrific. But we did something also really interesting. As I mentioned, there were all these scenes that where they filmed their footage, you know, where they filmed this original footage and it was about them sneaking into the into the mall and building the apartment. And it's these incredible, like, you know, almost like sugar rush scenes. They're so fun. They're like a it's like a heist movie, you know, but like, you know, it's like Ocean's 11. But it's almost like, I actually, it's almost like a reverse heist now that I think of it. You know, they're not stealing from something, they're bringing things in because they're building their apartment. So they're sneaking in couches, they're sneaking in tables, kitchenettes, a television, and in their like ultimate, ultimate maneuver, they decide to build a brick wall that concealed them even more inside the secret apartment. And all this they filmed. And then, as I also mentioned, the movie has all these other little tentacles. And as you also mentioned, Heather, you know, that it there's all these other things and textures in the movie. So, what we did on the editing that I thought was so interesting was Paul edited all the archival footage, this these scenes that were like these fun, heist, you know, as I described them, almost like sugar rush scenes. And I edited all the stuff that was more, you know, contextual, the stuff about gentrification, about art, about all these bigger issues that were going on. And we siloed each other. We did not share what we were working on. And this went on for several weeks where we would just be eat, maybe like months, where we were like literally siloed in the opposite part of the earth. He was in Australia, I was in New York, and we didn't know what the other ones were working on, uh, what each other was working on and how each other's scenes looked. And it created this really interesting approach that was right for this movie. And it gives the movie this really kind of unique flavor where it's kind of bouncing between these two worlds, um, but it's all, you know, it's all synergistic. It's all adding up to something more, but it gives it this very interesting sort of, you know, where you're kind of tiptoeing between this, these, these worlds. And um, it turned out to be a great approach. It took about a year, a year plus of editing.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

I love hearing about your process. That has to be the most unusual edit story I've ever heard in my life. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Yeah, I mean, people, when I told people, like, yeah, there was two editors on this, and we never were looking at each other's work, you know, and of course, I mean, for your listeners, of course, we eventually brought each other's scenes in and really reviewed them and integrate them and make sure that like everything was kind of working cohesively. But for months, we were just like, the the the job was make the best scene that you can. And don't worry about what I'm working on and what you're working on and how it's gonna all fit together. Don't worry about that. Just make the best scene. And that's what we would do. We would just say, okay, you have this five-minute scene or 10-minute scene where they're gonna sneak in cinder blocks into the mall and build a wall. Go for it. And that that was the job. And it really worked out incredibly in terms of that process.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah, it's it's great. It's it's like I said, it's great to watch. And so for you, what has it been like to watch this film with audiences?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

It it's been great. As, you know, as you mentioned at the in the intro, this movie had this really successful theatrical release. Um, it was unlike anything I I could have I mean, I didn't dream it would be this this good and this big. We, you know, have done really well in so many cities. We've like, you know, we released theatrically, we decided that was how we wanted to release the movie. We didn't just kind of drop it, you know, take the first uh offer from a streamer. We really made an effort to, okay, how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna put it in theaters? How are we gonna get people to come out to see a documentary? And we that became our focus for 2025. And watching it in theaters has been incredible because you know, you're talking about this movie that's really audience friendly, you know, it's it's a great time at the movies, it's very entertaining, it's very fun. You you cheer for it, it's funny. So we knew that it was gonna be right for an audience. We knew that a theater, theaters would would be great, a great venue for it. So just being in those theaters and and experiencing that has been a blast, you know, and it's been so fun. You know, I think since the movie has come out in um at Effect Film Festivals and now to now, I think I've done about 80 QA. Um, which is incredible. Think about that. 80 QA's. And the main subject, Michael, I think he's over 100. So also just this aspect that we're very much kind of, you know, participating with the film with audiences has also been incredibly fun and gratifying, and something that I want to, you know, uh kind of do again with other films.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Well, maybe if we're lucky, streamers are listening and we'll decide people are interested in more than just true crime and the handful of things they seem to want to support these days. Sure. And could you, you know, talk a little more? I mean, you know, again, you've already um talked about it a bit, but uh could you talk a bit more about the process of releasing the film, you know, starting with the premiere and going into the theatrical?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Of course, because I think that adds this, you know, this other really fascinating part of the story of Secret Mall Apartment. You know, um when we released it at South by Southwest, and you know, I had previously had other films at South by and at other festivals that had attracted buyers. And, you know, even in the case, for example, of Lily Topples the World, that was like a big buy, a big acquisition by Discovery. And I think we kind of all assumed, thought, you know, hoped, dreamed that, you know, a streamer would kind of jump in and instantly want that. They would see that, like, you know, wow, this movie is just, you know, packing audiences at at every festival, and it's, you know, up, you know, viewers love it. But we, as everybody knows, and as your listeners know, it we suddenly hit this like downturn with streamers and buyers, and suddenly everybody didn't want anything, and they didn't, they were worried about everything, and they were worried about you know, finding audiences for movies, and they kind of retreated to genres that they felt were safer. So when I started to read the writing on the walls a little bit and kind of got a sense that, like, okay, this is, you know, this is gonna have to be really different. And then we decided to make this very bold step of self-releasing Secret Mall Apartment. In other words, not waiting for a distributor, not waiting for a streamer, not hoping that somebody would come and acquire it, but releasing it on our own. And um, you know, in the years a few years ago, when filmmakers would self-release their film, sometimes it it felt like you know, filmmakers were kind of throwing in the towel a little bit. Like this was, they didn't, you know, they didn't get any offers, so let's just self-release it ourselves and put it in a theater or two. But we actually had the opposite um kind of outlook. Our our vision was that we're doing this because we want to own the movie, we want to release the movie, and we see incredible potential in releasing it ourselves. And we don't need these distributors who, frankly, these days aren't even don't even seem that great at their at their job. You know, they seem kind of like, you know, as we mentioned, you know, they're very concerned about just kind of going into corners that they know they could find audiences. So we were, we came to it from a place of you know, being very bold and bullish. And I think that very much became our attitude in the entire process. And it was borne out in in how well it did. Um, you know, that this was a movie that we released ourselves and every everything was better because of it.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Well, one thing you said that struck me is about, you know, your your broad approach to the theatrical release, because it is true a lot of times people are just focused on basically doing a week in New York, a week in LA because they want to, you know, potentially be able to qualify for an Oscar, you know? And and so do you have any, you know, advice generally to offer uh indie filmmakers who are trying to do a theatrical relate release like you that's larger than than trying to get those one week runs in just two cities, you know?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah, you know, I I for us, we were very much uh thinking about how do we how do we subvert and disrupt that playbook, you know? And we really were thinking about anytime there was something like, oh, well, we have to, you know, this is how you do it. We were trying to immediately say, well, let's come up with a let's let's try to subvert that and do something different. Um, for example, just as you said, a lot of films and a lot of documentaries, they say, well, let's release in New York and Los Angeles. Sometimes that's for awards consideration, but sometimes they're just also like, well, that's because that's where you do it, and that's where the audiences are. And we looked at that and we said, well, in Los Angeles, it's not great. Documentaries do not do great in Los Angeles and theaters. They a lot of people do not come out for documentaries and theaters in Los Angeles. There's also been a real reduction of arthouse movies that play documentaries in Los Angeles, particularly with like the closing of the landmark and the arc light. So we were like, well, what we don't, you know, let's not focus on Los Angeles. And then we started to think about New York, and obviously I'm I'm from New York, um, and there's lots of interest in documentaries here, but it's also not great in terms of the breakdown with theaters in New York City, the percentage, you know, and I know we're getting into the little the weeds a bit, but it's super interesting. The percentage in New York is not as good as the percentage in other cities. And it has to do with rent and it has to do with all these things that you're mentioning, where filmmakers traditionally release their movies in New York and LA. So we were like, well, let's what how do we change that? How do we upend that? And we decided to focus our premiere in New England. We premiered in Providence, and we decided we want to premiere at the mall that where this happened. And that became this, you know, rallying cry, like, okay, let we want this movie, Secret Mall Apartment, to premiere in Providence at the mall where it happened. And that be, you know, was it wasn't easy to make that happen. There was a lot of moving parts, but we ended up premiering there in March of this year, and it played at that theater for six months. Um, and I think it was their number two movie of the year at that theater behind Sinners. So it outgrossed every single Hollywood movie except Sinners this year. And then as of a week ago, that movie theater closed. It's the mall's still open. The mall where this all happened is still open, but that movie theater is now closed. So we basically were there the entire run. Um, additionally, there was all these other things that we would think about. We would think about, well, the playbook says you do this, and we would say, like, okay, well, let's try to do something else and do something different. Um, another funny, just random example is, you know, oh, you you you get you make one poster. That's how you do it. That's how that's how they've done it for a hundred years. Make one poster, and that becomes your key art. And every this is how you do it, of course. Well, we were like, you know, all right, well, we're gonna have five posters. I think at the end we had seven posters, and we used them. Sure, like certain posters became like the main poster, but we had seven posters in circulation. Um, so we were always looking for ways to kind of shake things up, and I think that also worked really well for the film.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Jeremy, this is so fun to hear about. This is like a master class in indie film distribution. So thank you so much. And so I've never heard of a documentary getting parodied parodied on the Tonight Show, um, but yours did. And I'm wondering what it was like to be contacted by Jimmy Fallon's team about your movie.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

It all starts with our executive producer, Jesse Eisenberg, who I definitely want to, you know, point out how important he was to everything that we were doing. So I think uh Jesse and I are friends, and this is the second movie of mine that he's been an executive producer. He doesn't, you know, and obviously your listeners know him. You know, he's this great actor. He had this terrific movie last year that he directed, A Real Pain. Of course, he played Mark Zuckerberg and Social Social Network. Um, but he also loves just kind of being a champion for, you know, unique kind of films and unique artists. And he has, like I said, has been involved in two of my movies. And he doesn't really want anything in return. He doesn't put money in or anything like that. He just is a cheerleader and a champion. So he has been shoulder to shoulder with us in the entire release of the film. Um, he's done a bunch of QA's, a ton of like virtual QAs, a lot of press stuff. And when we realized we were gonna release, we were like, okay, how do we really take advantage of this as best as we can? And that's when we reached out to the Tonight Show and kind of, you know, we kind of dangled Jesse. He had just was coming off um the Oscars with a real pain. And we and, you know, kind of said, hey, well, Jesse would be available on the Tonight Show, um, but wants to talk about Secret Mall Apartment, and then that developed from there into this idea where Jimmy Fallon was like, okay, well, I want to parody this movie, and they did uh the Secret Desk Apartment, which was the idea where somebody was living under Jimmy Fallon's desk all these years and nobody knew. It's very, very, it was very funny, and it was like this running joke throughout an entire uh entire show.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

I love it. It's super cool. Um, so the Secret Mall apartment is currently being developed as both a stage play and a scripted movie. And can you please talk about how these opportunities came about and what your role is in these productions, if any?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Well, it's on both in both cases, it's super early. We have always felt that this movie lends itself to such, you know, a fun exploration of other ways to show this story because this story is so incredible. So, right off the bat, there was immediate interest from lots of people in turning this into something else. Um, and we've just been kind of exploring that with producers that are interested. There's really nothing, you know, firm happening with that, but there's just been a lot of ongoing interest, and now there's starting to be some companies that are developing it.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Well, I love that. It kind of makes me think of Gray Gardens because that got turned into not only a scripted version of the documentary, but also a musical, which is pretty wild to think of a documentary being turned into a musical.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Totally. And I know uh the documentary Queen of Versailles is also being turned into a musical now, and that uh that's that's neat. And hands on a hard body, a great documentary. I want to say that was turned into a stage play, but I I don't know if it might have been a musical. I I don't I don't know exactly. I'm sure some listeners will know.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

I feel like I should know that because uh I think it may have been. I think there are two that have been turned into musicals. So I'm sorry I don't know off the top of my head, but sure. Um, so how have the participants in Secret Mall Apartment reacted to the success of the film?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

They love it. You know, all of them are still artists, they're all still, you know, hardworking artists with a lot of integrity. They're, you know, they're they're none of them are, you know, I put it this way, like none of them are sellouts. They don't care at all about success. They don't really care about money. They have just high, high integrity, but they've really enjoyed this process. And I think they've also found that the film has been is really honest. It's honest about their story and what they were doing and their intentions. And they, I think all appreciate that this is a documentary that didn't just go with like, hey, let's tell this in the most like sensational New York Post kind of way, but rather, you know, it's it's it's almost like, I don't know, like Man on Wire or something like that. Another movie that was turned into a scripted, another documentary that was turned into a scripted movie. Um it was turned into the walk. Um But you know, I think the participants of Secret Mall Apartment have been real have really enjoyed the process.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Well, good. Well, hopefully it leads to other opportunities for them. Like you said, that guy doing the tape art, that's just super cool too.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

So yeah, that's Michael Townsend. His stuff's incredible, and people can find it, his stuff at tapeart.com. But of course, he's featured his tape art's featured prominently in the documentary. So folks can see see a lot of his great work in the documentary.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

So you often direct, produce, edit, and shoot your films. Can you please talk about the pros and cons of that and what you like and dislike most about the various roles?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

I think that's that I don't I I have no cons with that other than it it's difficult. It takes a lot, it extends the time. It extends the timeline, and it creates, you know, maybe like physical and stamina challenges, but other than that, there are no cons. Um, I don't know, I don't think I'm gonna continue doing that, however, because it it's an enormous investment of time and effort um to shoot and edit. Um Seagram Apartment was the first movie that I didn't edit completely. My newest documentary that I'm finishing up now, I didn't, I wasn't the editor. On on as I'm doing more, I'm I I'm finding myself editing less and shooting less, which is probably a natural evolution. But I I love shooting. Um, I love editing. And I I really see making the movie, you know, that that shooting and editing is part of the holistic process of making a documentary. Documentaries are so much, you know, about the shooting and the editing. They're not, there's no, you know, nobody's scripting, there's no actors, obviously. So they become a an art form where you're you're really focusing on the shooting and the editing. And so that's why that becomes so important to me is thinking about what to shoot, how to shoot it, what it the shoot, the what it's gonna look like, you know, and even real technical stuff, you know, what kind of lenses using and how what kind of cameras and what that what the look of the movie is. And then of course, when editing, how to construct the scenes out of that. So always that was my approach. And the again, the only downside is that it just really adds to the timeline and such a such a degree. So I, you know, I'm like I said, I'm starting to phase that approach out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Well, unfortunately, we don't have time to discuss all of your other films because you've done so much great work. But since your documentary deciding vote was Oscar shortlisted in the documentary short form category, and also Emmy nominated for most outstanding short documentary, I'm sure our listeners would love to hear a bit more about your journey with that film. It covers a politician who sacrificed his career to vote for women's reproductive rights, and it was distributed by The New Yorker. And I'm wondering how they got involved with the film and at what stage.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

That was a movie that, yeah, it's called Deciding Vote. It came out in like 2023. It is 20 minutes. So it was a bit of a departure for me. You know, most of my documentaries are, you know, going, uh they're more verite, they're not necessarily historical. They're they're often they're like ride-alongs in present tense, you know. Secret Mall Apartment isn't completely that, but it's still very much contemporary and it follows characters with a lot of verite footage where that I'm shooting. Deciding vote was was somewhat different. It was this incredible story that uh somebody meant told me about. And I was so interested in that story and couldn't believe that it wasn't more well known. This was about this assemblyman in 1970 who switches his vote on abortion. And as a result of switching his vote, it got the bill passed in 1970 in New York and ultimately led to the legalization of abortion in New York. And then that bill was used to as a model for Roe versus Wade. So it it was this incredibly huge, important story. And I I just felt like I had to do whatever I could to make it. Um, I made it first. We raised the money again independently, and then we made it. We made it as good as we possibly could. And then after it started to premiere at festivals and win awards, that's when the New Yorker came on board. And that's when like it became, you know, one of the document the short documentaries that were are in kind of those award contention conversations, and it ended up getting shortlisted. And yeah, uh, folks could still find it on the New Yorker. It's on, you know, their channel, I think their YouTube channel, and it's um this great tight 20-minute story with a lot of archival and really interesting, powerful interviews.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Well, to touch on another one of your films, your 2018 film, The World Before Your Feet, about uh Matt Green walking every street in New York City, um, which involved walking over 8,000 miles, it returned to theaters this summer and had a few sold-out shows. And I'm wondering if you could talk about the process of um re-releasing the film. I mean, like one thing I'm curious about is like, did you have distributors or did you not have distributors? And if if you had them, like were you encouraging them to put it back in theaters or how that works?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

So that was a movie that um also did really well on its theatrical release. When it was released in 2018 and 2019, I think it played in a hundred theaters, a hundred cities, you know, and it's it probably grossed like 600,000, 700,000 in box office. And it's, you know, it sounds kind of quirky and and, you know, kind of like fun, you know, like an odd little movie. It's about Matt Green, who is this guy in his late 30s who's walking every street of New York City, and that's all he does. He lives off$10 a day, if that. He's doing it as a way, not to like write a book or to become a tour guide, but he does this as a way to sort of better understand his world and better understand the, you know, the people in the world. And he's fascinating. And he agreed to let me make a film on him. He and I were friends at uh before I started making the movie, and he said, okay. And then that movie uh came out and it was acquired by Greenwich Entertainment and Keno Lorber. And like I said, did really well when it came out in 2019. Um it we were thrilled by it and had a number of fans. And what then what happened was Matt, you know, what's what's fascinating about the documentary is that Matt doesn't finish. It's not one of these documentaries, you know, like uh, you know, I don't know, free solo or something, where the the main subject finishes his quest. He never finishes his quest, it just becomes so gargantuan for him that he's not able to finish it. And yet, this, and like I said, I made it in 2018, 2019, but then Matt finished it, his entire walk. He finished the entire walk of all five boroughs. It amounted to about 12,000 miles, and he finished it in 2024, around this time last year. And there was a this sort of new blast of publicity about oh my god, Matt Green finished his walk, the guy that was in the world before your feet. He he finished his walk, and there were new articles and press and news stories. And at that point, theaters kind of were keyed in, especially around here. And it we're exploring this idea. Could, you know, how about we do we put it back in theaters and we involve this idea of, you know, again, and this comes back to what we were talking about before, which is, you know, thinking about ways to disrupt how you're releasing your movie. And theaters were kind of thinking about, hey, what if we put this movie back in theaters and also had community walks in conjunction with the release? And we were so on board, and Matt led a bunch of walks, and suddenly we were in a bunch of theaters this past few months, and crowds have been great. We just played at the Nighthawk in Brooklyn a couple weeks ago, totally sold out, and it was followed by a walk with Matt Green. So, yeah, it just kind of a reminder that, you know, movies have a long timeline, a long lifeline, and there's, you know, it there's always going to be interest in in stuff you make, and there's ways to kind of bring it back out to the world.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

I love that. It sounds like his walk is like the city version of uh people doing the Appalachian Trails, you know? Yeah. I wonder how the length compares. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

I think it I think somebody actually once figured out that it was similar in length. Interesting. Um, but it it Matt, or you know, Matt's fascinating. And uh yeah, I encourage people to watch that movie just because I'm so in awe of Matt, you know, and I think that viewers watch the documentary and they just they they get to discover Matt. And um, I really think, you know, for that purpose alone. So yeah, if your listeners should check it out. The world before your feet, you could find it all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Great. And what advice do you have for aspiring documentary filmmakers?

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Um, I think it has a lot to do with some of the stuff that I've probably already said, you know, in our conversation, but like kind of like not, but kind of think, and I know it's a cliche to say, like, well, think out of the box, but you know, I think that's really important, and not just saying, like, oh, okay, well, this is what this is how you're supposed to do it, or this is what what the book says to do, or this is what the way that the streamers want it, and just kind of like throw all that out the window and just try to tell great stories and try to tell great stories in engaging ways and and think about the audience, think about you as a viewer, you as a as an audience member, and like what you like, and not so much think about external factors that you can't really control. So I think I I if there's any advice, it's just you know, go try to make a movie, try to make a documentary. It doesn't need to be super high budget. Documentaries have a very, you know, low bar in terms of you know kind of entry level. And obviously there's some documentaries that are quote unquote premium, but you don't have to do that. You could aspire just to make a documentary about an interesting subject, and you could make it in a way that you know feels kind of kind of more DIY, and you could, you know, cameras are cheap, and there's a lot of shooters, and there's a lot of editors, and editing software is readily available. So it becomes easier and easier to to figure out how to make a documentary. And uh that's what I would encourage people who are listening.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Great. And um, for anyone who's interested in following your career, can you please share your social media handles and your website?

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Sure. Uh yeah, I'd love anyone to follow me. You know, always in the in the quest for for uh followers. Um on Instagram, I'm JeremyWorkman underscore. And of course on Instagram, there's Secret Mall Apartment. And uh my website is JeremyWorkman.com, and anyone can feel free to reach out to me anytime.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Great. And um, can you please let our listeners um know where they can currently see the secret mall apartment?

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Secret Mall Apartment is available now after we've done our theatrical run. It's now available on digital, so anyone can, you know, go onto Google and type in Secret Mall Apartment or documentary on people that lived in the mall, and it'll come up with, you know, Amazon options, iTunes options, uh YouTube rentals, Google Play rentals. We're just on digital now. We're not on like, you know, a paid streamer. We're doing our own digital, sort of in the spirit of our self-release. And um, you know, just in the same way that it was important to get the word out when we were releasing them theatrically. We're also trying to do the same digitally. So I'd love any listener to check it out. And like I said, feel free to write a review or let me know, or let me know what you think, and would love you to check it out.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Great. And is there anything I didn't ask you um about today that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Oh, I'm doing a crazy new movie right now. I just finished a new movie uh that no one's seen. It's not officially done yet, but it's called School for Defectors. And I was uh I made a documentary in Korea where I was going out to Korea um quite a bit, and I was embedded at a tiny school in Korea, has 20 students, it's a boarding school, and all 20 are North Korean defectors. Um and it's a really incredible story, and you follow these kids as they are navigating, just you know, being teenagers, but also with this kind of heavy thing, you know, hanging over them, which is that they are from North Korea and they're adapting to life in South Korea and everything that that means. So I'm finishing that now, and I hope to uh find audiences with that in 2026.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Well, that sounds super interesting. I didn't even think that it was really possible to get out of North Korea, so I'm it was it is exactly interesting.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

It's not easy, but there's uh there's about 20,000 uh defectors in South Korea, and um, they come in all kinds of variety of ways, not just from North Korea. Some of them come from China and other countries, but they're basically all originally from North Korea.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Interesting. Well, thank you so much, Jeremy, for taking the time to join us today and share so much wisdom and great tips with our listeners. We just really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

My pleasure. What a fun chat. I really appreciate the opportunity and getting to, you know, blab away about all things secret mall apartment.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Yeah, well, I hope um anyone who hasn't seen it should definitely um go check it out. It's just a great film. So awesome, thank you.