What Everyone Gets Wrong About Crowdfunding — with Bri Castellini

Description:  We’re joined by Bri Castellini, one of the top crowdfunding experts in the indie film world. While at Seed&Spark, Bri helped filmmakers raise over $25 million—achieving an incredible 85% success rate. Bri is an independent film and screenwriting consultant and a subject matter expert in arts crowdfunding, indie filmmaking, film festivals, podcasting, romance novels, and the USA television show Burn Notice. As a filmmaker herself she's known for her short film Ace and Anxious (writer/director, 160k+ views on YouTube) and for her podcast Breaking Out of Breaking In. She personally helped launch over $25 million dollars in crowdfunding campaigns with an 85% success rate while she was the Manager of Creator Success at the artist crowdfunding platform Seed&Spark, and she’s spoken at over 200 events and festivals virtually and in person on the subjects previously mentioned. Her full work history can be found on her website BriCastellini.com. And find her at https://www.instagram.com/castellinifilmschool/.

In this powerful conversation, Bri reveals what most filmmakers get wrong about crowdfunding, why going viral is not the goal, and how to fund your film by simply telling your story with heart.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:15

If you've ever felt overwhelmed or intimidated by the idea of asking for money, this episode will bring you clarity, confidence, and a fresh perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Welcome to the Art of Film Funding with your host Carol Dean, president of From the Heart Productions and champion of independent filmmakers worldwide. Today's episode will change the way you think about crowdfunding. We're joined by Bree Castellini, one of the top crowdfunding experts in the indie film world. While at Seed and Spark, Brie helped filmmakers raise over$25 million, achieving an incredible 85% success rate. Brie is an independent film and screenwriting consultant and a subject matter expert in arts crowdfunding, indie filmmaking, film festivals, podcasting, romance novels, and the USA television show Burn Notice. As a filmmaker herself, she's known for short film Ace and Anxious, writer, director,$160,000 plus views on YouTube. And for her podcast, Breaking Out of Breaking In, she personally helped launch over$25 million in crowdfunding campaigns with an 85% success rate. While she was manager of creator success at the artist crowdfunding platform Seed and Spark. And she's spoken at over 200 events and festivals virtually and in person on the subjects previously mentioned. Her full work history can be found on her website, BrieCastellini.com. And I'll spell that for you. That's B-R-I-S-C-A-S-T-E-L-L-I-N-I.com. In this powerful conversation, Brie reveals what most filmmakers get wrong about crowdfunding. Why going viral is not the goal, and how to fund your film by simply telling your story with heart. Carol, I understand that Brie will educate us on how to create successful campaigns.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

That's right, Claire. Thank you so much, Brie, for joining us. We want to learn how to get a high percentage of our database to financially support our campaigns. I I don't think most people realize it, but Kickstarter and Indiegogo operate at about 32 to 35%. And you've been working with 85%. So we want to hear what you have to say, Brie. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

No, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Well, I know you've helped raise over$25 million for Indy Filmmakers with an 85% success rate, which I find astounding. So what do you believe are most filmmakers uh misunderstand about crowdfunding?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, of course. So just to break down the statistics a little bit, you know, I got a big start at a platform that itself has a much higher success rate. Now there are, we can go into the math of that, but like really the thing that sets Satan Spark apart and what sets most successful crowdfunders apart is the feedback process, is not just writing what first comes to mind, launching your campaign and hoping for the best. So I think that's like the number one misconception that I see in crowdfunding is this idea that you can just do it. And if you have a good enough idea, people will flock to you. Um, this, you know, this comes from an earnest place. We all want to believe that the stories that we're telling are uniquely wonderful, and of course, there's an audience out there for us. And you're not wrong, but it's not random and it's not passive in the way that you sort of get in front of those audiences. It used to be, fair enough, you know, in the early, early days of Kickstarter and Indiegogo when it was still pretty like surprising to see a movie being made through crowdfunding rather than, you know, private investor conversations or funding it yourself. It was special, you know, to get to be a part of a movie while it was still being made. It was, you know, exciting to be able to spend 500 bucks and get a producer credit on a real movie and an IMDV page for yourself as a producer. And so back in the day, you know, in the early 2010s, like it was a little bit more common that people would just sort of sit on Kickstarter and refresh the home page to see what new movies were being made. But as I think most people probably understand at this point, Kickstarter is a little bit more common, right? It's pretty rare that you get just discovered by happenstance because there are so many people and places asking for your money and attention at all times that you know it's no longer really necessary to go somewhere to spend your money. Places to spend your money come to you. And so, as filmmakers, what you have to understand is that like you're competing with the entire internet for attention. So simply existing is no longer a viable strategy. So it, you know, you really cannot depend on having materials that look good but aren't going anywhere. You have to put a lot of that outreach work in yourself. So that doesn't come out of, you know, a day's worth of work filming yourself on your computer webcam and posting on Kickstarter, right? Like I what I try to impart to filmmakers, to crowdfunders of all kinds. I've worked with a bunch of different kinds of artists and companies, but like the thing that I try to impart is that like running a crowdfunding campaign is a production in and of itself. You wouldn't go into production without pre-production. So you shouldn't go into a crowdfunding campaign without having a like thoughtful, in-depth conversation with you and your team about like what does this look like? We have 30 days plus to fill with, you know, entertainment and content and like reasons for people to pay attention to us that can't just simply be repeating the phrase, I'm crowdfunding, please give me money over and over again for you know four or five weeks in a row. So that requires a little bit more than probably a half a day's work. You gotta do pre-production for your crowdfunding campaign. And a big portion of that pre-production is not about building the page, which is important, but arguably more important is building your outreach plan and building the ways in which you're gonna put this beautiful page in front of people and not just people, any people, but the right people, your particular audience.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

It's very important to understand that your audience is the key because um no matter who says uh what platform you're using, they are not going to bring you people. Maybe one percent might come back on your platform, but 98%. That's what uh I think that the leader of uh Cedon Spark, Emily, told me years ago. You're gonna get 98% of your money from your own list, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Exactly. Your own list and your own sort of outreach potential. Uh, and that's that's mostly going to be like emails and in-person and text that that the people that you're able to directly communicate with and personalize that outreach to. Um, so like when we I talk a lot about emails when I do podcasts like this and and do talks about crowdfunding. And it's not necessarily that emails are like this special magic kind of communication, uh, but rather that they are the most direct, scalable form of outreach that's available to people because in person certainly converts higher than any other form of outreach. You know, it's a lot harder to say no to somebody when you're looking them dead in the eye. But of course, that's not always possible. You know, we had uh lockdowns a couple of years ago that really disrupted people's sort of comfort level and a lot of events that used to be more regular that people could go and connect with each other in person. Now, of course, those are coming back to some extent, but I think that a lot of us get really shaken up by that. And so it's not quite as easy to consistently go out and meet people where they literally are in the world. And so it's become really important to find like new methods of connecting with people in sort of similar ways, even if it's not like literally geographically in the same physical space. So email has become like a really powerful tool because it is the one kind of communication method that doesn't tend to be solely attached to a singular platform. So like social media has never been a great um converter to crowdfunding. The, you know, historically it converted about one to two percent into crowdfunding contribution. So only one to two percent of people who saw a post from you would end up taking action on that post and like giving you money. But even those numbers seem astronomically high for uh the past couple of years that I have been um like specifically tracking those numbers. And the reason for that is a couple fold. So the first is that your social media audience isn't your audience, it's your social media platform's audience that they're letting you borrow. And what we saw particularly starkly when you know the whole Twitter X takeover was going down is that when people left Twitter, the people who they followed had no way of knowing where they went and no way of following up to say, hey, I decided to join, you know, this spin-off of Twitter. I joined Mastodon, I joined Blue Sky, I joined Threads. There was no meaningful way to like communicate that to an audience because the audience was already gone or they had already picked their own platform. And so, like a lot of people who utilize that platform, myself included, for professional networking and communicating with our audience, lost a major chunk of them that they're there's no meaningful way for them to control reconnecting with. I still use the same personal email I've had since I was 16 years old. So you are far more likely to have sort of continuity in that manner. And as a result, just on a level of staying in touch with people, email is a far more valuable tool for you and for creatives of all kinds to prioritize the capture of. You know, you I'm not saying that social media doesn't have its moments and doesn't have its benefits, but it should not be your priority when it comes to building an audience because again, it's not your audience, but your email list that is because that is far more likely to stay consistent, regardless of where you or they go on the internet.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And it's fun, it's fun, Bree. To be a recipient when someone's running a campaign, you and you donate or you're thinking of donating. It's fun to see what they say next and how far are they, because a lot of people wait and see how close you are to reaching your goal before they jump in. Uh, and so you can count your number of emails that you send out, and you really know when people are you'll feel it and you'll see it in your donations when they have cross the trust you, like you, and are ready to start communicating and asking you questions, then they go into donating, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Absolutely, and it's also you're able to personalize it. I realize I dropped one part of your question earlier. So the other great thing about email uh that kind of mimics the power of in-person is that you're able to target it a little bit more. So when I'm talking about emails, I'm not talking about sending out a newsletter or like one of those mass BCCs where you're like, hey, everyone, I'm crowdfunding. What I'm talking about when I'm talking about the power of email in crowdfunding and marketing is direct personalized emails, like, hi Carol, it's Brie kind of emails versus like, hello, everyone from From the Heart Productions. And what the power of that is, is that again, it's really hard to deny someone something that they're asking of you directly. So sometimes when I teach crowdfunding, I use this sort of like analogy scenario. So say there is some kind of emergency situation happening, you know, a car crash, and there's a big group of people around when this emergency happens and somebody screams, oh my goodness, somebody call an ambulance. Now, you might be in this crowd of people, you might have a phone, but are you gonna be the one to call the ambulance? They just said, Hey, anyone call an ambulance. There's so many other people around. I'm sure somebody else can handle it. You know, you're kind of in a in a hurry, your phone battery is not the highest. Like, what if you have to stay on the call and then your phone battery is gonna be even more drained? And then how are you gonna play Candy Crush and check Twitter? And so all of this stuff is going through your head that makes it far less likely for you to take action. Uh, and that's gonna be probably true for a lot of those people. But now change the scenario slightly. That same person screams, oh my gosh, hey you, call an ambulance. Well, now you're singled out. Now you're gonna look like a jerk if you don't call an ambulance because you have been singled out by face, by name, by gesture. And if you deny it now, you probably need a pretty good reason to do so. The same is true for crowdfunding outreach. When you see a post on social media, when you see a big newsletter call, sure, some people are going to respond. You know, some people have extra goodness in their heart than others, but most people are gonna sit around and wait and see, well, is anyone else gonna do it? I'll do it if I need to, but I'm gonna wait and see who else is invested first. I'm gonna wait to see if it's even worth calling the ambulance. You know, what if the person has already passed? Well, then it would be a whole, you know, waste of time. And that psychology is very true for crowdfunding. If people don't think that your campaign is gonna succeed, then they're not gonna give you money, especially not on flexible funding platforms where you keep their money anyways, even if you don't hit your goal. That's a whole other piece of the puzzle that we can talk about later. But like that's why email, direct messaging, phone calls, text messaging is really powerful because you can personalize your asks. And personalization doesn't have to be like, I literally know you in real life and you know, I can ask about how the kids are doing. But it's also, you know, we met at a film festival a couple of years ago. We had a great conversation, and I thought of you recently when I was working on this project, or you signed up for my mailing list, and I'm so grateful that you've chosen to stay in touch in that way. Like, as long as there is some level of personalization to clarify that this is not the email everyone's getting, this is the email you personally are getting, that is a really powerful motivator for people to like actually take you seriously and consider more seriously taking action on what you're asking them for. If you can't personalize it, then you know you get that sort of like mob psychology is not the right word. I don't remember what the term is anymore. Um, but like the the sort of bias of a crowd of I'm sure someone else will take care of it. The worst thing you can do is give people an out. Your job as outreach for crowdfunding is to give people as few excuses as possible not to take the action you're hoping they take. So that means including multiple links to your campaign and your email. That means like following up regularly, not too regularly, don't spam people, but you do want to make sure that they are continuously aware of your existence. And this is actually where social media can come into play because what social media's greatest benefit is during a campaign is not actually outreach necessarily, but it's keeping you top of mind for people so that they remember you sent them an email.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yes, well done. Now, you said something powerful recently. I heard crowdfunding isn't begging, it's sharing your passion. So, how can a filmmaker make that mindset shift before they even launch the campaign that it's sharing your passion?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is honestly one of the biggest sort of blockers for especially creatives when it comes to crowdfunding. Like when people are making a product or launching a business, like they inherently have a different mindset around the idea of asking for money, because that's sort of the whole point. But like creatives, we're sensitive, right? We don't want to talk about the yucky money admin stuff. We want to talk about the art and the characters and the lookbooks that we created. And the great news is that you should be doing that because no one realistically wants to have a conversation about your budget if they're you know only able to contribute to a small fraction of it, as you are in crowdfunding. But what people love to hear about is all the stuff that you love to talk about. Have you ever had a conversation with someone where you can tell that they have they do not care what they're talking about? It's just a thing they have to do. You know, have you ever gone to the DMV, for instance, versus have you ever had a conversation with someone who seems like really excited and passionate about whatever the subject matter is? There's a pretty distinct difference in how you feel after that conversation, whether or not you went into it excited about it, right? So, like your excitement as a filmmaker makes other people excited. And it's makes the conversation a lot less uncomfortable when it comes to money because it's not about the money. Like the biggest mindset stuff you can make is that it's not about the money. Crowdfunding is as much, if not more, about the crowd as it is about the funding. If you can genuinely earnestly get people excited about what you're making to the same degree that you're excited, then that's most of the battle. If they're excited, they'll spend the money, they'll find a way to get involved. But if you can't get them excited, maybe you'll get some of their money, but you're certainly not reaching your fullest potential financially. And also, those people aren't going to be coming around here. Because something I think that people forget during crowdfunding is that it doesn't happen in a vacuum. You're not crowdfunding to make a movie that you keep in your basement and never let anybody watch, right? Like presumably, you're crowdfunding to make a movie so that you can show it off to people so that you can share it with the world. And if your crowdfunding is so boring and soul crushing that everyone's like, I don't want to think about this anymore because that was so annoying, like that they made me feel bad about you know not giving the money or whatever, those people might give you money in the end, but they're not going to watch the movie. And have you really won if they haven't watched the movie? The goal isn't to raise money, the goal is to make a movie. And if the people who you raise money from don't care about the movie or you have put a bad taste in their mouth that they associate with the movie, then that's a problem. So remember that yes, the money is important, but that's what the campaign page is for. You know, the campaign page has the, you know, sale language and the buttons that are very prominent that allow people to give you their money. But your goal when it comes to outreach is about expressing excitement and getting them to that same place, is figuring out what it is that makes this film special, especially to specific audience segments and speaking to them about that. Make it about I have to see this film. Oh, the only way I can see it is if I give you money. Well, open my wallet and take whatever you want. You've made me so excited. Of course I want to join you. It's not about getting the money, it's about wanting people to give you the money. And so So that honestly isn't that complex of a language shift, right? Like instead of, hey, do you have five dollars to give my project? You say, Hey, do you have five minutes to talk about this project? Or hey, you want to see something cool? That's a much better opener, much more persuasive. And again, if at the end of that conversation there is a very clear link to a beautifully built Kickstarter page or, you know, whatever platform you're using, that becomes a much better sales pitch than if you don't give me five dollars, I'm gonna bother you for the rest of the month. That's not how that's not what people want. That's not what the a good sales pitch is. Again, you might get the five dollars, but have you really won? No, because that person's not gonna watch your movie. They're absolutely not gonna look at that because you haven't sold them on the movie. You've sold them on giving you five bucks, but that's only like a quarter of the battle at best.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Very true. And so what we have to do is really focus on building the all-important email list. Just uh tell us, tell filmmakers just starting out with a small network, how they can best build this list.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So uh I actually sell templates uh for email list organization. If anyone's interested, you can head to my website and find more information on that. But like the big thing is just you have some kind of structure for it. So whether you want to use uh, you know, a platform like MailChimp um or I just use a spreadsheet because I find it's a little more customizable and it means that I'm not stuck on a particular platform using only their tools. I I don't know if you guys have picked on up on this. I don't trust tech companies. So as much as I can, I like to organize this myself so that you know whatever goes on in the sort of tech battles, I'm good. So I just set up a spreadsheet with some pretty simple, you know, columns, name, email, relationship, um notes, notes category I find is really useful because like when I meet somebody at a film festival, I'm not, you know, they'll they'll give me their card. But if I don't immediately write down not only where I met this person, but like what we talked about, you know, a couple of things, then you know, by the time that I have a reason to reach out to them, I have no idea who this person is. And that doesn't make for a very good email. So um the first step is just figure out a organization structure that works for you so that as you meet people and as you it occurs to you to add new people to the list, you have a place to do that. So you're not constantly reinventing the wheel or being like, oh, I'm sure I'll remember them. Hey, hey guys, you're not, you're absolutely not gonna remember them. Have a place to write it down. Uh, and it's helpful if that's already in place. So step one is just have a place where you're collecting emails. Step two is add everyone you have ever met. Now, importantly, you're not always going to reach out to every single person on your list. There are some projects that is not appropriate for me to reach out to, you know, my former college writing professor about or my friend from middle school, right? But you never know in the wild, wide, wild world of filmmaking when you're gonna make something that occurs to you is perfect for this random person that you do have access to, you just haven't had a reason to reach out to in a while. So, you know, step two, add everyone, absolutely everyone. If you've ever emailed this person and have even an inkling of who they are in your world, write them down and try to categorize them to the best of your ability by the kinds of things that you are expecting to make in the future, you know. Is this the audience for when I do comedy? Is it the audience for, you know, when I do horror? Is this person in the audience for whatever I'm doing? You know, because there are gonna be people who just care about you, you know, your family, your friends, people who, you know, regardless of what you're making, as long as it's not completely off the reservation, you know, you're you're gonna connect with, right? And that they're going to give you money because they support you as the artist. And the more you categorize this list, the more useful it's gonna be in the future so that you don't have to like go through it line by line every new project to be like, oh, should I email this person? You should kind of already have a level of categorization in mind when you start building this to make that filtering process a little bit easier later on. Then the final piece of it is start to think, where do I think people who will like the work that I'm making hang out? That's in person, that's online, you know, social media, whatever. Like who are the kinds of people that probably like the things that I'm doing? And where are they already hanging out? And then that gives you a lot of new answers about okay, this is where they're hanging out. How do I get their email addresses? And this is gonna be different for every audience, right? Like, not everyone prioritizes emails in the way that they sort of interact with the world. Um, not everyone is a big like community person, you know. Sometimes your audience is a little bit misanthropic, so you know, they're not always gathering in the same place, which can be tough. So your job then is to kind of figure out the puzzle of I want this kind of person's email. What do I think is the most likely avenue to do that? And if that feels like a very abstract exercise, fair enough. Um, so ask yourself a different question. I am making this because I want to see this in the world, right? Ostensibly, you are your first fan. So break yourself down. Who are you as a consumer of art, especially of independent art? If you saw your Kickstarter page, your social media page, your mailing list, website, like, and you just came across it on the internet, a person who theoretically would be really into whatever the project is, would you click subscribe? Would you give this random person on the internet your email address? Would you give a couple of bucks to this Kickstarter campaign? If not, you have a problem. So that's where you start to break down like, when do I spend my money? When do I opt into getting emails? Like, what is my behavior as a fan of things? And how can I reverse engineer what I would like to put it out into the world? That's not going to be a, you know, 100% effectiveness, but it's going to be a better start than just sort of throwing spaghetti at the wall, right? So, you know, if you're the kind of person that hangs out in forums and has conversations organically in, you know, communities, then that's probably where you should be spending your energy. If you're the kind of person that loves newsletters, you subscribe to a bunch of different substacks and like that is the way that you like receiving news and you know, special interest information, then maybe you should launch a newsletter in one of these special interests that relates to the kinds of projects you make. Uh, are you the kind of person who likes sharing your opinion and is always willing to, you know, fill out a short survey to help someone, you know, get a greater sense of like a thing that you're interested in or an identity that you are. Well, maybe you start a survey. I actually wrote a whole blog post on Medium last week, the week before, about the power of using surveys and like Google Forms to build audience and connection to the communities that you're making work for. So that might be a good method for you. Like all of the world is open to you. So it's just about figuring out who are the people I'm trying to reach, how do they want to be reached, and how can I make sure that the the first action they take at the end of whatever interaction we're about to have is giving me their email address.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Right. Well, I often tell people to set up an opt-in box on their website, and that means that they have to give something away as a gift to get people to opt-in. And I recommend not saying join my newsletter, but join my community to help build this or make this film or join uh my tribe. Something that makes them feel that they're part of a nice group that they'd like to be aligned with.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

So yeah, inclusive language is huge. I think that's something I want to pull out because I think that's a great point. And you know, what we talked about mindset earlier, and I think inclusivity is a part of that mindset building that you want to do. You know, you're not giving me money, you're joining my project. You're not having a transactional relationship with me, you're a part of this team now. And like just shifting that language can be really powerful. Um, something else that I I recommend to people that I learned while I was at Cedon Spark is the idea of donation, maybe not being the correct term, especially if you're a filmmaker, even if you're fiscally sponsored, a donation isn't really what you're asking for. A donation implies a transaction that you are a charity, that you know you you are something that like they're supposed to sort of feel good about supporting and then not really interact with anymore. Like it feels very one directional. But um, using words like pledge, join, contribute are a little bit better language when it comes to soliciting contributions to your project because it feels inclusive. It feels, again, like we're not making it about the money and I'm not a charity case because I'm giving you something. At the end of this process, you're getting a movie and probably a bunch of other cool stuff along the way if I, you know, design my rewards correctly. So donate can sometimes be a distancing word that I don't recommend people use unless in very specific scenarios. Um, so yeah, try join, try pledge, try contribute. These little small language changes can make the whole process feel more inclusive and make it a little bit more successful in reaching people.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Great. And what type of emails do you suggest filmmakers send ahead of notifying their uh mailing list about the campaign? Sometimes I've had people tell me that they uh sent out an email to everyone saying, I'm running a campaign, I need your support, and it brought in very little. So you need to say something to people you haven't spoken to in a year or more, right? How do you Yeah, no?

SPEAKER_02 33:13

I mean, definitely don't just sort of appear after a decade and say, give me your money. Like that's probably not a great way to start that conversation. But that's why I do think that like having some consistent form of communication that is accessible to people is important. And if you can do it in email, great. So like newsletters are actually like growing in popularity and in viability for kind of keeping in touch with people because you know, you don't have to make it super targeted. But as long as you have sort of a regular missive, even a couple of times a year with your mailing list, um, giving them the opportunity to opt out if they don't want to be on it, but kind of just regularly checking in and letting them know you're doing stuff. You just got into a new festival, you know, you just started production on a new project, you, you know, a film from a couple of years ago uh just hit a milestone. You know, these are things that our team is working on. Like there's a lot of ways that you can kind of just lightly stay in touch so they don't forget who you are. And so the first time you reach out to them, you're not asking them for something. Um, in terms of audience building, I found that it can be more useful to launch a newsletter that isn't about you necessarily, you know, not a production newsletter, but something more like subject matter or thematically aligned. So, you know, you're a horror filmmaker. Recommend a new, you know, underground horror movie every two weeks. So, you know, people who love horror movies and who are like, I want to know what else is out there. You are like their number one source for like movies they would have never heard of before. Or if you are a queer filmmaker, maybe you do a newsletter about queer representation in media. There was a recent report that went out about like, I think like 30 or 40% of all queer characters currently on TV won't be there next season, either because like the show's ending, the character died, the care the actor is leaving, you know, et cetera, et cetera. That's pretty big news and pretty devastating. So there's clearly a lot to say about representation of uh queer characters in media. So that's absolutely a special interest that people have and they have a vested interest in being informed about. And if that is something that is relevant to the kind of work that you make, perhaps that's a good thing to send out. So whatever it is, the the best thing you can do for yourself if you're planning to crowdfund anytime in the next year is figure out what is your communication method with your audience ahead of that that has nothing to do with the Kickstarter, right? So it should just be keeping yourself atop of people's minds, staying a thought leader in whatever the you know category of things is that you like to make or expect to make in the future. Like make a name for yourself as someone who's out there doing stuff. Then when the you know Kickstarter comes across their pages, it's gonna feel inevitable. It's gonna feel like the natural evolution of like, well, of course you're doing you know a crowdfunding campaign because like this is what you talk about all the time. And now I, you know, I know how hard you work and I know how you know motivated and inspirational you are. So sure, I'm much more receptive to this because you're not just a random person I met one time 20 years ago who happens to still have my email address. Uh, but in terms of the specific question you asked about like when it's imminent, when the campaign is coming, winter is coming, uh, and they, you know, want to start kind of lightly letting people know. I think if you already have a newsletter, I would make it like the second action item in like a week or two in advance of the campaign launching. So what I mean by that is like in a usual email, there's like two or three distinct sections. Usually there's like the big thing you want people to pay attention to, you know, the biggest announcement, the most exciting thing, the funniest thing, you know, whatever you want them to focus on first. That's first. And then I would make, you know, in a week, we're launching a Kickstarter campaign, like the second thing. So it's not the most important thing in the email, but it's in context of, you know, other stuff they would have expected to see in an email like this. So that's just a good way of kind of broadly letting people know something is happening. Then in terms of personalized emails, I definitely don't think you need to send them to everyone ahead of time, but you know, whoever you think are like your ride or die audience, like the people who are definitely going to give you money no matter what you do, best friends, you know, people who've contributed in the past, parents, things like that, email them separately, individually, and let them know hey, campaign is coming. And I not I don't I'm not only asking for your support, but it would be really helpful if your support came in the first 48 hours. Because there's a statistic out there that is pretty well accepted in the crowdfunding world, which is that campaigns that hit 30% funded in their first like three to five days are far, far more likely to succeed overall than campaigns that don't. So what that means is that the people that you're already sure of, you know, your sure things, if they can get involved early on, then that sort of inevitability of success we were talking about earlier of the psychology of making people feel like this is gonna be successful. Um, and so I better get on board so I can be a part of that. Um, a lot of that starts from the very beginning of building a strong sort of underswell of support and momentum to carry you through the emails that like you're not as sure of, the people who are newer to your list perhaps, or who you haven't talked to in a while. If they see the campaign at a really strong point in only a couple of days, that's really powerful. So that would be the the only sort of pre-email that I would send to people is just to the part of your list that you're like, they're definitely gonna give me money at some point. And so you can emphasize to them the importance of I I hope I can count on you. And if I can, I need to count on you in that first, you know, 48 hour period. And you can even tell them, like, Brie told me, you know, my my crowdfunding consultant, all the advice says, like, you can just be like, she's making me do this. She, you know, she's holding my children hostage so that I tell you guys that you have to give me money in the first 48 hours, like however it needs to come across. Those are the people that hopefully have a little bit more of an inside baseball knowledge of you know what you're working on and what you're up to. So they're probably already generally aware something's happening. And then you can just be honest with them, just be transparent. This is the psychology of crowdfunding. They're always talking about it. If that is possible, I would really appreciate it. And then from there, you know, you have your normal campaign emails. Um, I wouldn't recommend emailing people directly more than three times over the course of a month, just because, like after uh more than that, and it gets a little intense. Um, so generally I recommend in terms of email cadence, the first week, everyone should get everyone in your list should get a personalized email from you. Then at the end of the second week or beginning of the third, depending on sort of how the timing works out, send your follow-up email to anyone who hasn't yet given money. Don't, don't duplicate email people who give you money. Try to keep track of that so that you're not like spamming them, asking them for something that they've already contributed to. Uh, and then the final email should be in like your final three days or so, um, as the sort of like, you know, fear of missing out, email, last sort of ditch urgency. Hey, campaign ends in three days. If you're gonna get on board, you better do it now. Um, and statistically, most of your funding is gonna come that first week and those final three days. So it's really important to have a really focused, uh, organized system for sending out those emails during those two periods, especially. But that middle email can still be a really important kind of mid-campaign boost to momentum that everyone needs, even if they're already super successful.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Wonderful. Yes, that that sounds clear. And that's all that is really good news. Thank you. Now, um, I loved your analogy that your outreach plan is like a shot list. So, can you walk us through what a well-prepared outreach plan looks like before you launch?

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yes, absolutely. So uh when I say it's like a shot list, what I mean is that your outreach plan should, if created correctly, function as kind of a daily to-do list. Because what tends to happen for campaigns where people are not doing pre-production is that they know they have this sort of abstract concept of I need to raise a certain amount of money and I have 30 days to do it. Okay, so they launch the campaign and then you know, week two rolls around and they're like, I have nothing new to say. I'm still crowdfunding everybody. Hey, pay attention to me. But, you know, that's not very effective. We kind of talked earlier about how like you want to kind of diversify your messaging so that people who paid attention and haven't just haven't interacted yet have new reasons to do so and to continuously engage with people who haven't seen it yet. And, you know, maybe that's just because the original posts weren't reaching them in the same way. So you want to make sure that like what you're doing for outreach is as diverse as your project so that like you're not getting into a rut, algorithms aren't like filtering you out, and that people who weren't convinced by the first thing you posted have, you know, 29 other opportunities to connect with stuff that you post later. So I actually have an entire um outreach plan medium post. Y'all should go to my medium or my website. I have a bunch of free resources on there um that I try to make really actionable. So I have an entire article uh called Scheduling Your Outreach Plan, which is all about building it. But just to briefly go through that, um I this won't surprise anyone who's listened to more than 10 minutes of this. I make a spreadsheet. That's usually my plan for making an outreach plan. I find spreadsheets to just be a really versatile way of looking at kind of something from a bird's eye view, uh, especially when it comes to like scheduling, because then it gives you a sense of like, okay, it's been a couple of days since I have planned to, you know, post something on Instagram. So probably I should do it again. Like it just gives you a good sense of like how much do I actually already have planned to say, and can I arrange it in such a way that I have something happening every day of the campaign? And what I have happening is diversified and feels like fun and engaging, and I'm always trying new things while staying on the consistent message of, and if you want more about this, go to our Kickstarter or, you know, whatever. So, you know, an outreach plan consists of everything from those direct emails we've been talking about to campaign updates, which are the things that you're posting from your crowdfunding campaign page that go out to the people who have already chosen to support you. Um, it includes your Instagram grid or your social media sort of like permanent feed versus you know, Instagram stories or Snapchats, those things that like only exist for 24 hours. Um, it includes stuff for Facebook and for any other text-based social media, like Blue Sky or Threads, like all of these different places have different rules about what does well on them. And certainly if you have an audience that's kind of spread out over the internet, you want to have some level of strategy for each of them so that like no one's feeling left out and you are expanding the potential to outreach as much as possible. And so within each of these different communication methods, there are different rules. And you need to certainly also strike a balance between like strictly self-promotional posts, we're running a Kickstarter, here's information about the Kickstarter. But you also want to make sure that you aren't inundating people with give me your money, but also continuing to give them something. Like Carol, you made a great point earlier about like uh a hook for people to sign up for a mailing list is to give them something. So whether that's the opportunity to get emails that they're interested in on a subject matter, whether that's like you get a free download of my film, you know, you get some piece of information, you get early access, whatever. The same is true for outreach and social media, is that you want to make sure that you're also like giving them a reason to follow these accounts beyond the fact that like you've bullied them into it. You know, they should be interesting, they should be engaging, they should be sharing different aspects of the project. And the great news is that like while this might sound like a lot of work, you've probably done most of it already. You just need to organize it in such a way that you can utilize it for outreach. Because something that usually happens is that like you've been with this project idea for a while, maybe more than a year. So you've got a lot of materials. You've got comps, you know, you've got uh design and lookbooks, you've got like snippets of the script, old and new, you've maybe got a cast already put together, you've got plans for the different shots, all you've prepared so much because you want to make this film. And all of that is great fodder for social media, especially because it doesn't all have a place on the campaign page. People have this tendency to like over-explain the things that they're excited about. I'm certainly no stranger to this. And while I understand the instinct of like, I want to put, you know, I want to leave it all in the field, I want all of the information that somebody could conceivably want to be on my Kickstarter so that they know I'm prepared. And that instinct is understandable, but that is probably a lot of information, you know, a year or more's worth of thinking about this project and obsessing about it and deciding this is the next thing I'm gonna do. So, in order to temper that, but still find a way to utilize all that great information, all the comps you want to share, all of the, you know, sketches you've done for character design and all this sort of material that you have that like isn't immediately pertinent to somebody's understanding of what this movie is, but is like supplemental and does deepen their connection to it, all of that is great stuff that you can be using in your outreach plan. So if you find yourself with all of this material that you're just not using for the campaign page because it's not like tier one relevant to people, then that's where your outreach plan comes in. I want to talk about character design. Great. Pick a day on you know, week two where it can be character design day. And so you'll post an update about it that you can prompt people to. And so they, you know, are checking out the campaign page, but not because you're asking for money, because you're sharing cool insider details. You can post some stuff on social media about like the various characters and what the design process was. And that's all really interesting stuff that is not simply, and now give me your money. It's just, hey, give me your time and attention. Look how cool this is. Let's talk about it. And that, as we've talked about before, much more persuasive as a way of sort of funneling people to give you money eventually than just constantly hitting them over the head with the fact that you're fundraising. Make it about the crowd, make it about the craft, make it about the things that you're excited about with this film, which is probably not the dollar amount in your campaign's bank account.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Wonderful. Well, now, what role does creativity play in campaign design from the pitch video to the backer rewards? What do you have? What do you have uh to do to bring that creativity out to bring you money? Do you have any favorite examples of campaigns that did well?

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Ooh, well, I mean, I I've worked with so many at this point that it's hard to point to specific campaigns. I definitely do have uh articles available. I know I'm I'm repeating myself. I do have a lot of articles available on this subject. So if you're if you're curious about a specific aspect, everybody, definitely go check that out. I also have a um crowdfunding video on demand class, uh, one of which is exclusively dedicated to crowdfunding rewards, where I share a lot of old examples of campaigns that I've seen and kind of walk you through why they were useful rewards. Um but in terms of like creativity, I think that that's something that like hopefully shouldn't be too hard to summon because you're a filmmaker, right? You are inherently a creative professional. And so, you know, use that as your baseline for designing the aspects of your campaign versus like the sort of rote expectation that you probably have of like, all right, I'm asking for money, I have to wear a suit, I have to tell them, you know, X, Y, Z. And like certainly there is information that you need to be imparting at different levels of your campaign, but do it using that creative brain of yours. And I bet it's going to be a lot easier to figure out how and what to say. Because again, you already have a year plus of thinking about this project, this world, these characters, this subject matter, if you're a documentary creator, and you have everything that you need to convince somebody to get on board with this project. So, what is the most creative way that you can apply the best practices that we've talked about today to connect with the particular audience you're seeking? You know, if you're uh making a comedy film, make us laugh. Have a little fun, be a little reverent with your offers for your rewards and like the tone of your pitch video. If you're a horror filmmaker, you know, horror filmmakers have sort of, I in my experience, like one of the easiest times designing really fun campaigns, just because horror is so much about like iconography and just sort of clever timing. And neither of those things require a lot of budget to put together. So, like some of my favorite campaigns ever have been horror campaigns. And I'm not a particular like horror fan or anything, but horror filmmakers, you know, have an ability to put together something like really specific and have an audience that like is much more open to exploring independent content than I have found a lot of other uh audiences to be. Like you have to kind of not trick people in sort of comedy drama or whatever, but like it is a harder sell if a fan of another genre um learns that this is an independent film versus horror. Horror, they don't care who's making it. If it's a good horror movie, they're there for it. And so horror filmmakers have a leg up in that sense, but they also have the opportunity to like essentially make a mini horror film for their pitch video, which I've seen a couple of different times in a couple of different ways. And it's always so fun and creative because like what I think sometimes people forget, especially filmmakers when it comes to crowdfunding, is that your pitch video isn't like, you know, a webcam video that you're sending to a potential investor that you're having a meeting with. Like it's the little movie that you're using to sell us the big movie that you want to make. So if the video that you, the filmmaker, are making is bad or boring, then why would I trust you with my money to make a longer version of that? I'm not saying you need to rent a 4K camera and, you know, build a film set for your pitch video, although I have seen that happen in the past. But I am saying be thoughtful about the way in which you're communicating what you're trying to impart. You know, is there a more fun, creative way to express the information that I know I want to tell people? Is there a way that we can have more fun building this campaign so that that fun, you know, permeates the page and is the first thing that gets communicated to people? Like people are sensitive to whether or not you are enjoying the thing that you're sharing with them and they can tell. We had this conversation earlier about, you know, do you care about what you're telling me or do you think you have to tell me? That's an important distinction. And if you don't care, and if you're just like, just give me the money, that's that's not a good sales pitch. But I know you have that in you, and I know you have a way to do it creatively because that's what you do every day. Every time that you approach a part of this process that you're like, oh, I'm bored by this. That's a great note. Why are you bored by it? What is a way that you could get the same sort of result that you're hoping for, but in a way that doesn't make you hate doing it? There, I'm sure there is an answer to that. So at every step of the process, and this is also like writing advice that I've heard and has been very helpful for me, is if you're bored writing a scene, your audience is gonna be bored reading or watching it. So if you're bored by a certain part of the crowdfunding process or you're like, oh, I wish I didn't have to do this, stop. And instead of following that thought to the extreme of, so I'm just gonna phone it in and have something up, take a step back and say, okay, what is the purpose of the thing that I'm doing? If I have to do it, why do I have to do it? Okay, now that I understand the why, how can I make the doing of that thing more fun? What are the things that I like about filmmaking and about talking to people about the things that I'm passionate about? How can I imbue this potentially boring part of the process with that same joy and discovery and creativity that I get to impart on the other parts of this process?

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Wonderful. Well, for the final question, let me ask for a filmmaker listening right now who's afraid to take the leap into crowdfunding, what's the one thing you'd say to encourage them to start?

SPEAKER_02 53:51

One thing to encourage them to start. Okay. Filmmaker. Yes. You I'm addressing the filmmaker. So filmmaker, hi, I'm Brie, and I can't wait to see your film. And even if you think that's not true, it is. And Brie, right now, isn't a singular person. It is a person like you who's out there somewhere, who's waiting for this movie to get made, and they're just they're waiting for you to discover them and to put it in front of them. There is something for everyone out there. There is an audience for your film. Even if you don't know who that audience is yet, yes, you do. It's you. You didn't come up with this idea because you know you want to make something successful and make a bunch of money. No one who is a filmmaker is in it for the money, at least not at first. You're in it because you have a story that you can't help but want to tell. So focus on that because I promise you, if you think it's a good idea and you're excited about the thing that you're making, then someone else out there is. So don't let fear of, you know, obscurity or of failure stop you because what you have to say is important. It was important enough for you to come up with. So it's going to be important enough for someone else out there to watch and fall in love with. I believe in you. Someone out there who doesn't know you yet believes in you. But we don't get to enjoy anything that you have to say or do until you believe in you.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

That's wonderful. We thank you so much for joining. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

This is I can't believe it's already been an hour.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

I know. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun and I've learned so much. Thank you. And uh Claire, I'll turn it over to you.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Yes, and thank you all so much. It was really very informative, Brie. I appreciate everything that you shared, and I know we look forward to having you back again sometime soon.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

I'd love to be back. This was so fun. Thank you so much for having me, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yes, it's enjoyable to hear someone who loves what they do, and you made it all sound doable and fun.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

So that's so heartwarming. That's all I want is you know, anytime I have a conversation with someone about crowdfunding, which I I don't want to pretend that it's like the most fun process in the world. It is still fundraising. Like, let's let's not lie to each other. But like my goal as a speaker, as a consultant, as a teacher is to impart the fact that like it doesn't have to be terrible and it can actually be fun. And so, so my goal is always like not only to give people the confidence that they can do this, but introduce them to opportunities to make the process actually something that they're excited about rather than something they're dreading because that dread permeates everything, right? So if you're dreading it, it's not gonna be successful and you're just gonna have a bad time. And I don't want you to have a bad time. You're all making such cool, like interesting things. Like my the best part of my job is getting to meet hundreds of different filmmakers a year making completely different stuff and getting to explore new worlds that I would have never had an opportunity to do so. So I I hope that if I can do nothing else, I can convince people that they don't have to have a bad time so that I can see more cool movies.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

It's an entirely selfish desire.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yes, you are the cheerleader for crowdfunding. So I just want everyone to know that if this conversation inspired you to rethink your approach to crowdfunding, I encourage you to visit Bree's website at B-R-I-C-A-S-T-E-L-L-I-N-I.com. And at From the Heart, we believe that funding your film is part of your creative journey, not a detour from it. And if you'd like to join one of our learn producing classes or become fiscally sponsored, you should uh get on our website and we have one more grant at the end of this year for students. You can check that out from theheartproductions.com. Thank you for joining us, and thank you, Brie and Claire. Thank you so much.