Think Outside the Box Office: Mastering Film Distribution in Today’s Market

Jon has been at the forefront of independent film for decades. Today, we’re diving deep into what it really takes to get your film seen—and how to survive and succeed in a very challenging distribution landscape.

Jon Reiss is a filmmaker, author and media strategist who wrote the book Think Outside the Box Office. His company, 8 Above, creates custom audience-building strategies, theatrical experiences and digital release campaigns for independent feature and documentary films. Reiss has consulted with hundreds of filmmakers and film organizations throughout the world including The Gotham, IDA, Screen Australia, Film Independent, Creative Scotland. Current clients include The Librarians, Among Neighbors, Death and Taxes, 1800 On Her Own, Sabbath Queen, Food & Country, The Ride Ahead and The Body Politic.

He has conducted workshops on six continents and helped create and run the IFP/Gotham Filmmaker Lab for ten years. In 2023 he created the 8 Above Distribution Lab to teach filmmakers how to distribute and market their films. He writes about distribution and marketing on his 8 Above Substack.

Last year he co-founded the Future Film Coalition a new organization to research and advocate for the economic sustainability of independent film.  

Jon got his start in filmmaking and distribution at the infamous San Francisco documentary collective Target Video. He not only shot seminal bands such as Black Flag, Iggy Pop, Throbbing Gristle, The Cramps but was one of the first – if not the first person to conceptualize and execute video tours throughout Europe, carting 500 lbs. of video deck and projector in a VW Bus across 15,000 miles.

8 ABOVE is a theatrical distributor and rights management partner dedicated to connecting award-winning independent films with audiences. Working in close partnership with filmmakers, 8 Above develops strategies that build community and social impact around unique theatrical experiences. Founded by distribution pioneer Jon Reiss, 8 Above has developed bespoke audience-building strategies and theatrical campaigns for independent films, specialty films, and documentaries, including The Librarians, Among Neighbors, 1800 On Her Own, Sabbath Queen, Food & Country, The Ride Ahead, The Body Politic, Sam Now, Two Gods, My Love Affair with Marriage, Maya Angelou: And Still I Rise, and Hooligan Sparrow.

8 Above

Substack
Jon@8above.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So glad you could join us on the Art of Film Funding podcast. I'm Claire Papan here with my co-host, Carol Dean, and today we have a truly exceptional guest, John Reese. John is widely recognized as one of the leading minds in film distribution and marketing. He's the author of the seminal book Think Outside the Box Office and the founder of Eight Above, a company dedicated to building audiences and designing innovative release strategies for independent films. Over the years, John has worked with hundreds of filmmakers and organizations worldwide, including The Gotham, IDA, Film Independent, and Screen Australia. His work spans consulting, theatrical distribution, and his groundbreaking distribution lab, where he trains filmmakers to navigate today's rapidly evolving marketplace. He also writes one of the most insightful substacks on film distribution. And today's attendees will receive a free six-month subscription, giving access to valuable case studies and industry tools, including his highly requested platform Comparison Cheat. John has been at the forefront of independent film for decades, from his early days documentarying punk icons like Iggy Pop and Black Flag to pioneering grassroots distribution models that are still influencing the industry today. Today, we're diving deep into what it really takes to get your film seen and how to survive and succeed in a very challenging distribution landscape. And Carol, I know you are a big fan of John.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Yes, I have been for a long time, Claire. He's a genius in the distribution world, and we really thank you, John, for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Well, thank you, Carol. I'm also a big fan of yours, and um, how could I not be a fan of someone who also always calls me a genius? So, but you do so much for the community, Carol. It's greatly appreciated, and I am often um in you know engaging with people that follow you.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

So oh, good to hear. Thank you, John. So um you've been at the forefront of distribution for decades. So, how would you describe the curtain distribution landscape for independent filmmakers?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Challenging, but hopefully. Let's put it that way. Um it is probably one of the more challenging times um for film distribution. Um, I got involved in helping other filmmakers after the market collapsed in 07. Um, and it's now collapsed again. Um, but in a sense, it it hasn't really collapsed this time. It's been more taken over by a few um media conglomerates. And so it makes it, while on the one hand, it is there are more and more tools to engage audiences, and there's more and more tools to do direct to fan distribution and to build audiences for not only one film but for a career. Those tools didn't exist as robustly 15 years ago. Um, it is still monetarily challenging because most of the money is being extracted by five large corporations that you're all very aware of, and who used to contribute back to the ecosystem in terms of acquisitions, which then uh helped funders, which created this, you know, somewhat virtuous circle between uh film financing and distribution, and that's become disrupted. Um, so that's you know, I always talk about having a singular goal for your distribution, and that's money, change the world, career, or audience, one of those four. Um, and money is the most challenging um these days. There's lots of techniques um to, you know, for films to help change the world. There's techniques to develop audience, although that's also challenging because not only are the global streaming platforms um using techniques uh to uh control audience attention, but also um the large social uh companies such as Meta are doing the same. So it's a very competitive landscape. So that's it, that's why it takes a lot of forethought and um acknowledgement from filmmakers to essentially survive in today's landscape.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yes, because there are too many uh windows of engagement between YouTube and on and on, John the games. Everybody wants your time.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yeah, yeah. That's why I yes, there's so much content. We're definitely in an age of abundance and not just an abundance of film, but an abundance of social media content, books, music, etc. Um, so it's for audiences, it's not just a matter of if they'll give you money for what you are offering, but if they'll give you your time, their time. Sorry, if they'll give you their time for what you're offering, whether they'll give you that 90 minutes for watching a feature film when there's so much else available to them.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Yes, this is very important. So let's get into why it's important for filmmakers to start thinking about distribution at the inception of their project.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Well, I think um I've been saying this for many years. Um, I'm also a filmmaker, so I understand at the inception, some people don't want to think about audience, they just want to be creative, et cetera. And you it's but after you write that script, you should evaluate um, you know, what the market potential is and how you're going to distribute and market that film, because it doesn't really exist now where someone's gonna come along and uh say, oh, I love your project, and here's a check, and I'm gonna make all your dreams come true. That almost never really truly existed, but it did exist for some filmmakers and now maybe happens for 0.001% of filmmakers. So the other 99.99% of filmmakers need to make a plan. And I am finally seeing, after saying this for 15 plus years, um, that filmmakers are finally getting it. So we're gonna talk about my distribution lab in a bit, but um, in the current uh fiction section of the distribution lab, six of the projects are in the script stage. So um they're they're recognizing that they need to know distribution and marketing. They know that their funders are asking what is the distribution and marketing plan. So that's the first thing. So they need to, they know they need a solid plan to convince or talk to funders or not just convince, but to engage with funders about what the plans are for the film. Um, but also there are things that you can do from early on that will help you distribute in your and and market your film later. There's content that you can create. Um, there's some films are now engaging audiences very early on and developing an audience over time, um, etc. And those techniques exist and you know, there are a lot of work, but it is possible, and filmmakers are doing this.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Amazing. I'm so happy to hear that because that's what gets the thought. Oh, I want to make this film. Are you prepared for six years for a documentary? Yes. Okay, then who's your market? That should be your next question. And I'm so happy to hear filmmakers are coming too early. Uh, so really, how should filmmakers approach budgeting for distribution and marketing?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Do it early. So I, you know, as an overall um approach, I think look at it this way if you don't budget for distribution and marketing at inception, the universe doesn't know you need the money. Right. So at the very least, create that budget so that, you know, I'm lived in California nearly all my life. I live in New York now, but um, it's that kind of manifesting thing. If even if you don't believe, I do feel that there's some sort of sense that even okay, so if you don't believe in manifesting and don't believe that the universe will help you provide you with these resources, at least you know that you need to re to raise this money. Um, and so in in terms of what that budget is, uh I'm I created in my book, Think Outside the Box Office, I there is um I created this concept of the new 50-50, which is 50% of your time, money, and energy should go into making the film, and 50% of your time, money, and energy should go into connecting that film to an audience, hence distribution and marketing. So that's not a hard and fast rule. Um, you'll see the studios who will often spend more money. They'll make a film for$200 million and they'll spell spend$300 million on distribution and marketing. So that's even say$60,$40 the other way. Um, but with lots of films, um, you know, if you're making a film for$50,000, you should be thinking about$50,000,$70,000,$100,000 for distribution and marketing. You'll be way better off than the filmmakers who aren't doing that. Um, and if you make a film, if you're lucky enough to make a film for$2 million, you probably don't need$2 million to distribute and market the film, but you probably should be thinking about somewhere between$100,000,$300,000,$400,000, you know, to distribute and market the film in the way that you you want to do it. But that gets down to you can't really create a budget until you have a plan, because the plan is the basis of the budget. So the first thing to do is to create a distribution and marketing plan, know what elements that you're going to have. Like, are you going to do a theatrical release, which is expensive or not? You know, are you going to hire an impact producer and for how long? You know, maybe you're hiring multiple impact producers if that's super important, in one covering one area, one covering another area. All these things will determine what the budget is, and that hence you need to create a plan before you create a budget. But that it's essential, I feel, to create that budget from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Right. Well, let me ask you do you do consultations uh with people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, so we do consultations with people. Um, and we also have the distribution lab. And so um, if you're interested, on our website are forms, and basically we meet with people every couple of weeks in these informal sessions where we explain how we work with people, um, and then you tell us about your projects and et cetera. And so, and we get a sense of whether consulting is better, you know, might be better for you or the lab might be better for you. So it's there's um two main options of working with us.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Wonderful. Okay, so you said the landscape is not great right now. What are the biggest challenges that filmmakers are facing today?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Money.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Great. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

You know, so that's it's you know, it's tough because, you know, like look, the PBS was gutted, you know, they're still going, you know, the the strands, uh, independent lens and POV are still functioning, but they don't have the resources they used to have. Um there's um the streamers aren't really acquiring very much content at all. They're making it themselves um generally. Um they acquire a few things and they're paying much less than they used to. Um, that's making investors nervous um about whether to invest. And um so and it does cost money to make a film and cost money to release a film. And the avenues of revenue for those, there are depending on your film, they can be good or they can be challenging. So if your goal is money, um in my opinion, the the key thing to do is to find an underserved audience that wants to be served by media. So they're find an audience that is dying to have their story told. So a case in point is the librarians, which we worked on. We um advised them to start as a consultation, and then we ended up doing a theatrical release. And the this film is about uh school librarians and local librarians on the front lines of book banning in the United States, which is happening all over the place. Um, and these librarians were desperate to have their story told and to be able to use that film as a tool to communicate what they're going through to other people. And those librarians became super spreaders of the uh and super organizers of the film in all their in not all their communities, but many multiple communities across the country. So that leading to uh two, you know, I think we're over 200 cities for the theatrical release. I think there were over a thousand requests for community screenings. There's just a huge pent-up demand for this, to just give an example. Um and so that's you know, find an audience that's underserved and serve them well is you know is what I would suggest for financial success. Um that's a lot of.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yes, thank you. Well done. Well, what about the concept of audience building and and why it's so central to everything you do at eight and above? Let's get into that.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, so I think, you know, how we view audience building in general is to build an audience not just for one film, but to build an audience for your career. Um, and even when I hear back from filmmakers, well, I make different kinds of films. Well, there's probably some through line, some creative through line or stylistic through line, or even your authentic self through line. Since you're the maker and you're making multiple projects, how do you how can you engage people in your creative process, your ideas? And people because people want to want to, you know, hear about why films are created. They want to know about creators, etc. So that's um one of our key principles. The other is that no one else is going to develop this audience for you. Um, there's no other companies out there, or very, I mean, there are some, but you have to pay them. Um and there's no one really, there's no just there's very, let's put it this way, I won't say none. There's very few distributors out there. As I said earlier, 99.9% of filmmakers aren't working with a distributor that is going to handle marketing for their film. So it's kind of on you to develop that audience. And it so we talk about very specific ways of identify audience identification and different paths to engaging those audiences. Um, and in general, we feel that it's a longish road and that the earlier you start, the better off you are, at least in terms of identifying your audience. And if you can engage that audience in the making of the film, all the better for it. Um and you know, I'm talking to filmmakers, and I being a filmmaker myself again, I understand how hard that this is, and it's not necessarily a filmmaker's skill set. A lot of filmmakers are, you know, not facile with social media. Um, and so if that's the case, then bring someone on your team who is facile with social media. Many years ago, I was kind of like pilloried for saying fire your DP and hire a PMD. Because if you don't like to do social media, if you don't like to do distribution and marketing, you as a filmmaker can probably shoot your own film. But if you can't do the social media and marketing, then maybe your resources should go into that and maybe you should think about shooting your own film. Now, that's like I make these statements to get people to think, right? So the new 50-50 is a way for you to think about, oh, I need to, you know, plan for this, you know, and same thing with that last statement. It's you know, it's a way for you to think about that there's essentially a new kind of world out there, and um and the the sooner filmmakers adjust to it, the better. And the people who are more successful are the ones that adjust to it and plan for it.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Right. PMT. I remember I love that. You're a producer, your marketing director, producer of the market.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Well, producer of marketing and distribution is what the PMD stands for. There's also another term that's kind of come up lately that Emily Best is promoting along with uh I've this really brilliant person, Ivan Asquith, um, who we had as a guest in my distribution lab, um, called the community producer. So it's not someone I find that a producer of marketing distribution, there's only so many of us, to be honest. I work as one when we do releases, and it takes a very broad skill set of knowing marketing and knowing all aspects of distribution. And there are not that many people out there that know that. But a lot of the work is in audience building and hence this idea of a community producer, which isn't just an impact producer, but for any kind of community, for any kind of film, to have this concept of a community producer, I think is you know, is a wonderful idea.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Exactly, because this is what you're making the film for, this community. So that's only natural. But I had one filmmaker who was desperately trying to get people to join her social network because she had a potential distribution with a streamer, but she didn't have enough social network numbers. Her numbers weren't high enough, she had to raise it about 2,000 names. Right. Right. So people so she didn't know that till she got all the way to the end of her film, and then it was a distraction. She wasn't marketing or producing the film anymore, she was audience building at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah. Proper prior planning prevents perplexing problems. That was drill. I had a drill sergeant for my seventh grade uh algebra teacher and uh a former Marine drill sergeant, and he probably said that every day. So it's like, and it just, you know, uh has stuck with me. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

It's great. It's great. So tell us how you work with filmmakers through your counseling.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

And yeah, so we do so we do consultations, and that's includes watching the film and then two hours of consultation, and then you can do more hours after that. Most filmmakers do. Um, and then we also have a distribution lab. Um, so one of the things in my background um is when after I wrote the book, I did these two-day workshops all over the world, literally on six continents. Um, didn't get to Antarctica and didn't get to teach the penguins or the scientists about distribution and marketing, but that's and that's fine. Um, and then Ted Hope and I uh helped transform the IFP Roughcut lab into a finishing distribution and marketing lab, and I helped run that for 10 years. But that finished a few years ago, and then also when the current crisis happened, a friend of mine encouraged me and said, maybe it's time to start a lab again. Um, and I did. And um, and it's a six-month program. Uh, we meet every week. Um, every month I'm in the sessions three times a month, and then the filmmakers meet on their own. And you're essentially learning how to do distribution and marketing under my mentorship for six months. Um, and uh we also, so I do presentations, um, but then we also bring in guest experts from around the field, and these are usually at the highest level of independent films. So, for instance, uh the CEO of Kinema, Christy Marchese, uh CEO of Together Films, uh Sarah Moses, uh, the former CEO of Letterboxd came in, David Larkin, etc. So you're not only learning from me, you're learning from these experts, and you're also learning from each other. And distribution and marketing can be a very lonely um, even if you have a team of people with you, it can be a lonely um endeavor. So it's great to have a cohort of other filmmakers that you're engaging with. And I think filmmakers are really eager for those cohorts these days. And what we found is that these cohorts kind of stayed together over time, even after the lab is over. Oops. Yeah. Yeah. And what we've heard is that that's, you know, that cohort aspect is one of the most popular aspects to it. But also filmmakers come out of it, they say that they've had a mindset shift about not only distribution and marketing, but also of filmmaking.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Wonderful, wonderful. So what makes Aid Above Distribution Lab unique compared to other training programs?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Well, I don't know of almost any other programs. Um and so I think it's kind of unique in the landscape. And the only one that I do know of is there's one that's more impact focused, then there's another one, but they only meet, my understanding, the other one only meets once a month. And so we meet every week, um, which I feel is you know pretty important. Plus, in addition to the meetings, there's a whole trove of resources online. So my past presentations, all the guests that have come through their presentations and interactions with the filmmakers, plus a lot of documentation. So there's sample budgets, there's sample even a form of how to uh the best practices of how to gain email addresses at screenings, you know, screenings toolkits, sample uh press kits, sample press releases, etc. Those are all available in the back end.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Oh, screening tool samples. This is great. Yeah, really wonderful. Okay. I want to talk about your substat because it's a most enjoyable thing. Um, it's full of guidance. You get to the nitty-grippy. You don't give us this wide area, you hone in on important things. Guidance is what I've been looking for, and it's always there. And I sincerely thank you for offering this free six-month subscription to your Substack because this includes valuable case studies and tools that I'm sure you won't find anywhere. Uh, so I want to tell the audience you're gonna be sure and sign up for that. And there is a code which is HART, A-E-A-R-T 6, and it's all lowercase uh before May 14th. So thank you, John, for that.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I enjoy doing it, and it's um, you know, I think it's it's it serves what's interesting, kind of what we do is a little bit of a um virtuous circle. Um, so we do releases and so we experiment with different things during the releases, then we do case studies about it. It also informs other things that I write about on the Substack, as well as also in what we teach in the distribution lab. So everything kind of like the consulting, the distribution lab, the substack, and the releases that we do all kind of feed into each other. And I think we're pretty unique in that area. I don't know anyone who's simultaneously doing releases and also teaching distribution marketing um as avidly as we do.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

I agree totally. So um you have uh you've been uh you've been working with um the industry, and so I wanted to find out more about uh this um black block the merger campaign and matters.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah, yeah. So so about a year and a quarter ago, or just about a year ago, me and a few other people started an organization called the Future Film Coalition, um, which is an organization to advocate for um the interests of independent film. Um, because we realized that, as I mentioned, the media conglomeration that's been going on has been very damaging to our field and ecosystem, plus many other things that are damaging to our ecosystem and making it more difficult for filmmakers to survive. Um, and what we realized was that it wasn't just you know techniques, it wasn't bad films, it wasn't anything else. That is is it was that there were systemic structural issues within our economy which were hampering us. And so we banded together to create an organization to advocate for filmmaking for film independent film, but across the landscape. So we have a brand, we have six branches. So there's a filmmaker branch, there's a distributor branch, there's an exhibitor branch, so festivals and theaters. Um, there's a um communications and media branch, so for publicists, impact producers, social media journalists, etc. Um, there's also a branch for artist support organizations such as um such as uh Gotham and IDA, et cetera. We have I think I think 60 organizations that are part of our organization now. Um and then we also have an at-large uh branch for funders and lawyers and agents and managers and academics. Um and actually today we are launching our membership campaign. There are, you know, there are guidelines for membership. You have to have experience within the field. Um, but if you go to futurefilmcoalition.org, um there's a membership form and you can sign up and sign up to or apply to be a member. Um, and then it goes through an approval process. So one of our we did actually, you know, a campaign last year where we helped advocate for and achieve an independent film carve out in the increased California Film Tax Credit. Um, but the biggest campaign that we've been a part of is and we actually initiated was the Block the Merger campaign to try to stop the merger between Paramount and Warner Brothers. And what are part of what we're our industry is suffering is from decades of consolidation, um, where um several now large corporations have basically vacuumed up or bought and and and and then eliminated um former thriving independent distributors, such as New Line Cinema was bought by Time Warner and then bought by Warner Bros. And basically is now their library is part of Warner Brothers, but they don't really exist anymore. And Newline Cinema was a thriving independent distributor that would distribute lots of independent content and provided a lot of revenue and and great releases for independent films, and that doesn't exist, that company doesn't exist anymore, and there are very, very few companies now that can exist in the current landscape. Um so um I sometimes joke that I started the or I helped start the future film coalition to put myself out of a job. So, because if we had a thriving uh ecosystem for independent film, people wouldn't need me as much. So um, and uh so please put me out of a job. So um and so you can so the Block Their Merger campaign also has a uh petition that you can sign, and we encourage people to sign it. It it's probably up to 5,000 signatures now, but the more the merrier. Um, and it has a quite a number of prominent people who have signed on to it, from Damon Lindehoff to um Gina Gershon to um, you know, many people I'm blanking on the names, but uh Mark Ruffalo um and et cetera, who's one of our biggest proponents and uh of the Block the Merger campaign. And um so please sign that. And you can get that, you can you can also find the petition um on Future Film Coalition. Um, but you can also go straight, frankly, you can go straight to blockthemerger.com. Also on blockhthemerger.com, not to take up too much time with this, there if you have a story about how you have been affected by media consolidation, um, meaning so even if you're you know not in like even if you're say you were a grip on TV shows being produced in Los Angeles, um, and now you're out of work. And part of the reason you're out of work is because you know the kinds of productions aren't being made in Los Angeles anymore because of a right, whatever variety of reasons, um we are collecting stories in one of the, and this is what we've been told is that this is a very important element of uh the Block the Merger campaign is to hear stories from people actually in the industry of how they've been affected by media consolidation. Um, and so if you're a theater owner and you are suffering under the restrictions that the studios place on you in terms of the kind of content that you have to show in your if you want this movie, then you have to hold it over for a whole month. And if you want this one movie, then you also have to accept program these three other terrible movies. And so that makes it hard for you to function as an independent theater. Those kinds of stories, um the full range of stories of how media consolidation has infected our industry are important. So um if you want to help in the campaign, the first thing is to sign the petition. Second thing is if you have a story, um, and also to spread the word about the petition. And the second thing is if you have a compelling story about how you've been affected, is to write that up. Um and you're welcome to write it up anonymously if you don't want to leave your name.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yes, stories are the best thing we have because we are storytellers.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah, I was just gonna say that. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

So we need that. Okay, so let's get into uh release strategies. What are some of the most effective theatrical or hybrid release strategies that you're seeing right now? This is really important. How do you get people out of their homes and into the theater?

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah, I mean that we're one of our clients coined what we do call to um oh, let me just rephrase that. One of our clients um coined what we do as impact event theatrical. Um and we find each of those elements, there the two elements of impact and event are very important. So impact in terms of engaging audiences and through organizations and through interest groups to come out to the theater. So you're not just yes, publicity is important, yes, organic social and paid social are important, but what we found is that organizational partnerships is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, way to get butts and seats. And it's not applicable to all films, it's a little bit more applicable to documentaries, but it's I've had filmmakers in the lab. We're going to be doing a case study on the Substack next week from one of the filmmakers in the lab and who made a film about a 15th-century English nun and how she's reaching out to organizations and groups to get them into theaters. Um, and then the other essential component, in my opinion, is to eventize your theatrical release. And even if you're doing community screenings, that's what really helps get people out in into theaters, is if there's an event component. Um and so this could be anything from you know the filmmaker or the subject being present, uh, panel discussions with community groups, but you can even do Sandy Dabowski would do soul spas in cities where he went, which weren't even part of the theater, but as promotion, you know, as part of a promotion, but also it was part of his brand, and also something that he loved to do is to bring people together and engage in spiritual discussion and and ritual. Um so um there, the encampments, for instance, would after their screenings, would bring people to a um Palestinian restaurant and have dinner to have discussions. So you're basically it's basically sky's the limit in terms of what you can potentially do. The one of the more famous examples recently is the film Eno, where every time that film is shown, it's a different version of the film. Now, most filmmakers can't do that, but it's a brilliant way of advantizing um the theatrical experience. So that's those are what I would say tried in true ways. And that's what we did on the librarians. And um, I kind of had to convince them to try this one night event. It also, the other aspect of advantizing and the other way to um kind of be successful is to focus on one night, a one-night event, because that time scarcity um also makes it so that people are compet feel compelled to get out of the house. It's like it's not going to be available any other way. It's not available all every day, you know, for a week or two weeks. It's only available one night. Um, and so what we had on the librarians is where 47 cities one night events sold out weeks in advance and turned into week-long runs because it showed the popularity and it created that demand, that that scarcity created the demand for um for the for the screenings. Um, and then I would say also scarcity is a technique that filmmakers are using, savily using throughout their releases. Um, so for instance, you know, Sandy with Sabbath Queen, he's doing in-person events for he's into his second year. He's not putting it online. There's many filmmakers who are not putting their films online, not putting it on what's called transactional video on demand, because A, they enjoy the experience with audiences in person, but B, it they find that there's more revenue to be had from these in-person screenings than you can often get in transactional video on demand. There's certain, you know, films that are kind of unicorns that can do both, such as Hundreds of Beavers, which has such a crazy intense fan base that even after they went on video and demand, there was still demand for screenings, and they did they're still doing in-theater screenings. It's it's crazy how how well that film is doing. Um, but that's an outlier. And so you have to kind of be strategic about how you're windowing out these various rights. Um, another example that I'm using in my presentations is this, and we actually have a case study on my Substack with um uh uh film 1946. And so they did a very short theatrical release, then they did these um home screenings um and um house house party screenings, um, and then they eventually went on video and demand um onto Amazon and iTunes, but they're still doing screenings all around the world, to be honest. It's like it's amazing they're going to Africa next year. And so they're still on video on demand, they do educational and on-demand screenings from their website, but they're still doing these campaigns literally all around the world in person. So it's a matter of being very creative um and intentional about the windowing and how that is is going to what's going to essentially um be the best to meet your goals. And so essentially um it's coming up with a strategy. And so for me to create a strategy, and I've written about this in my Substack, and I talk about it this a lot, is that there's these eight points that I feel are essential to creating a distribution and marketing strategy. I'm looking at the clock, I actually have to go in a couple of minutes for the distribution lab. Um and so the first is knowing what your goal is. Um, the second is understanding your film and is it as good as it can be? And also what is the brand of your film and how does that brand of the film relate to your film brand? Third is who is your audience and um not only the audience niches, but who what are the core audiences within each of those audience niches? The fourth is how are you going to reach that audience? And so I break that down into what I call owned media or what's known as owned media. It's the the media that you fully control, like your website, your email list, the extra content that you create, all the marketing materials. And then secondly, shared media, which is partnerships with organizations, partnerships with influencers, and also organic social. Then earned media, which is traditional press, but uh as important these days is audience reviews. And then last is paid media, which is like paid advertising. Um, so that's four. Then the fifth is what are the distribution channels that are available for you and how do you work those and what makes the most sense for your film? So I break those down into event theatrical, um, into digital, into educational, and into merchandise, those four main categories. Um, then sixth is how do you window those rights in relationship to each other? Number seven, what are the resources that you have or that you need to raise in terms of time and money to execute that release? And then how does all of this influence and relate to your entire career as a filmmaker? And so from those eight steps, and you can there, there's a substack, there this is all written out in my substack. There's a post about these eight steps, so don't worry about writing all this down. But using those eight steps to create your distribution and marketing plan. And that's essentially what we do in the consultations, but it's also we go through those eight steps in the distribution lab, and actually you're actually presenting on these different things, on these different attributes throughout the course of the distribution lab as you create your own plan. Um, but you can also be in distribution when you're in the lab. So it's every we take every the stages that you can be, you can be everything from development or script stage all the way through the beginnings of your festival release, I would say. You can be at any stage in that to be part of the lab.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

That's excellent. For filmmakers just starting out, what are the biggest mistakes you see and how could they do it differently?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

It's to not, I'll just summarize, to not think about distribution and marketing when they're making their films or even ideating their films, um, and to not make a distribution and marketing plan and not to budget for it. That's the hugest mistake is to have blinders on about this essential component. Um, and then I would say the other thing, it's not really a mistake, but be aware of the landscape and where it's at. And, you know, you know, I'd say if you apply to be a member of the FFC and help us try to change it.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Okay, that's brilliant, John. Thank you. This has been an incredibly insightful uh interview. Your knowledge, your passion for helping filmmakers navigate distribution. And thank you everyone for listening. And don't forget that John is offering a free six-month subscription to his Substack, which includes valuable case studies and tools that you won't find anywhere else. So sign up using the code HART6 before May 14th. And if you're serious about getting your film seen and building a real audience, John's work is essential. So thank you for joining us today on the Art of Film Funding podcast. I'm Carol Dean with Claire Papin, with the nonprofit from The Heart Productions, where we've been supporting filmmakers with education and guidance in film funding. We're wishing you success in getting your films funded, finished, and distributed. So join us next week for more insightful information. Remember, you are the magic. Hollywood needs you. Thank you for joining us today. Claire, thank you and John. It was an honor to learn all this. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Well, thank you, Carol, and thank you, Claire. Really appreciate it. As you can see, I really enjoy talking about this. Forever.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Thank you.