Brace for Oblivion: Xackery Irving on Courage, Truth, and Ukraine’s Front Lines

Over more than 30 years, Xackery Irving has produced hundreds of hours of nonfiction programming for The New York Times Television, History, and National Geographic. For his work on Brace For Oblivion, he was granted the p.g.a. mark by the Producers Guild of America. He currently serves as Co-Chair of the Employment Committee of the Producers Guild of America.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:15

What happens after a picture lock may determine whether your documentary disappears or finds its audience, wins awards, and begins earning money.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

So glad you could join us on the Art of Film Funding podcast. I'm your co-host, Claire Papan, along with writer, producer, and author, Carol Dean, president of From the Heart Productions. Today's guest is an extraordinary filmmaker whose career has been devoted to the stories of courage, survival, injustice, and the resilience of the human spirit. Zachary Irving is a New York filmmaker whose films include American Chain Gang, which was nominated for Best Documentary at South by Southwest, the feature film Nothing Without You, which screened at the Santa Fe Film Festival, and his powerful Ukraine frontline documentary, Brace for Oblivion. Brace for Oblivion recently had its world premiere at the Galway Film Flaw, where it won the Best International Documentary Award. Remarkably, Galway was the first film festival to which Zachary submitted the documentary. And the film was accepted and honored with this prestigious award. For more than 30 years, Zachary has produced hundreds of hours of nonfiction programming for the New York Times, television, history, and National Geographic. His career includes four documentaries, an award-winning feature film, and decades of television production. For his work on Brace for Olivion, Brace for Oblivion. Zachary was granted the prestigious PGA mark by the Producers Guild of America. He currently serves as co-chair of the Employment Committee of the Producers Guild of America. During today's conversation, we will learn why Zachary dedicated four years of his life and much of his personal savings to documenting the war in Ukraine. We'll hear what it takes to market, find your audience, and get the film to audiences throughout the world. And Carol, you've known Zachary Irving since the early 1990s. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yes, Claire. I met him uh when From the Heart presented its first film grant, first Roy Dean film grant in New York at the National Arts Club. Um, Zachary had pitched his film about the chain gang. And so I sat down, talked to him, and we became good friends. Uh, I believe the American Chain Gang film helped bring national attention to the heinous practice of chaining incarcerated men together, even when they were simply working outside or tending a garden. They were chained together. And so his film exposed something that the public needed to see. And I believe his work helped bring an end to that terrible injustice. So we've been friends over 30 years, and throughout his life, he has shown tremendous courage and an unwavering commitment to bring the truth to audiences through documentary filmmaking. And now he's made another remarkable and really deeply important film. So welcome, Zachary.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Thank you so much, Claire and Carol. It's so fun to be back with you talking about independent filmmaking and the journey uh that we face once we've locked picture and are looking to share the film for discovery uh within the festival circuit.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yes, this is the fun time. So I want to talk to you about um what compelled you to enter the war because and looking at some of your short videos, which I I really appreciate, but you put together a lot of two-minute videos so we get an idea of what's happening in the Ukrainian war. But one of them, there was this handsome Ukrainian soldier, and he said, I think you're crazy. Your country is not at war, and you can stay home.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

And yeah, you could stay home. Uh, well, uh, we talked about in previous discussions about how the story chooses you. And I think this was a case where I really thought that I was choosing where I was going and how this thing would unfold. I initially entered Ukraine with not a clear idea of what the storytelling journey would be. Uh, initially I was going to be following um journalists, war photographers, some that I knew, some through some I knew through friends and volunteers, but it turned into something um in a different path. It was actually about the Ukrainians. Uh, so you know, I wasn't drawn to the war as much as I was drawn to this the people and this incredibly compelling story of people within days of Russia's full-scale invasion, ordinary citizens that were making extraordinary decisions, you know, scientists, if you see the film, artists, students, uh, engineers, former soldiers, all volunteering to defend their country overnight. And I think, yeah, sorry, Carol, go ahead, please.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

No, I think that's amazing. The whole country rose together as a unit.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

It did. And over time, you know, the story is of, you know, uh my film is a portrait of seven of a hundred thousand that stepped up to uh shore the gap of an invasion, and in light of what the world was saying to them, which was you're gonna be facing erasure, oblivion, brace for it. And they took that in the they that warning, uh, I guess was not as important as their values. And that resonated, I think, with most people in the world. You know, I felt there was an important story unfolding beneath the headlines, you know, reading about it, something about it I just wanted to get closer to. And I knew that, you know, Ukraine is not a country at war. It's it's a it's a place, it's a home to people. And I felt like it would be so uh much better to tell the story from, you know, initially my idea was to tell it from people who were helping by telling the story as journalists or photographers or volunteers. But what we really felt was the thing that resonated most with me was telling the story from the inside. Um, you know, and much of that experience is just uh clicked with me. And in making the film, you know, once I understood what the narrative was going to be, it was something that followed through to today, which is your the storytelling guides you from when you're uh formulating what the film might be as you're making it. You're kind of in this whirlwind of uh storytelling in the middle of it. But as you're finding your true north of what the story is as you're working on it, and most films take years, you're also creating a storyline that will communicate to your audience, your festival audience and beyond what resonates with you, what is truly powerful about it. And that, if you put that first, that's always going to be a good guiding principle for you as an independent filmmaker.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

That's good advice. So let's get into what happens after picture lock. So, because many filmmakers believe finishing the edit is the end of the journey, but really it's the beginning of an entirely new chapter. So um what were first pieces?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I'd like I'd like the idea to be that I batted a thousand and the first time I submitted, I got into a festival. That wasn't the case. Uh, but I could sort of say that, you know, the the a big thing to remember right now is this is probably um the most competitive time for independent filmmakers, particularly when it comes to finding a place in um in the you know in the community of uh in the film festival uh uh schedule. And um, you know, so most people uh what I used to think, Carol, was once you've got picture lock, you're kind of debuting your film to the world and it kind of unfolds in its own path. And that passive, semi-passive, you can't be passive when you're releasing something, but that idea that cream will rise to the top, you make the best film you can, and it'll get recognized. That's probably was never a good way to think about it. And clearly now, with um, you know, thinking the responsibility is making the best film you can and the FS will find you, build it and it will come. It's now uh you should be thinking about it as this is graduation day, and you know, your film is finished, but your um your job changes from that point forward completely. You're not just a filmmaker, you're kind of an entrepreneur, you're wearing a lot of hats, and those hats can be worn by people who are part of your team that you trust and know. But those responsibilities shift from filmmaker to strategist, marketer, publicist, coordinator for the festival rollout, and in my case, community builder. You're trying to increase, you're trying to be kind of your own distributor from the moment of picture lock forward. You know, conversely, like back in the day, right, we would think that you just have to put it out into the field of for people to discover it. There was such an appetite in the 90s and 2000s for really great independent content to reach a hungry audience that wanted to hear and see um new stories. And now it's a little different. You have to wear all those hats: strategist, marketer, publicist, coordinator of festival, and community builder. Uh, because you've got to um, as we're going to talk more and more, and something you've talked about on your podcast, is you need to think about things as uh building. You're building a distribution um uh stream, you're building a connection with your audience. It's a lot about building these days.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Well, how did you develop your festival strategy? Because there are thousands of film festivals. So how did you decide which ones were right for your film?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Well, that's good. I I think we probably your audience will um relate to this. You know, um, there are like the uh basically there's there's more slots, there's more um really great films than there are slots out there. In fact, the news was from Sundance last uh time, they have 160 slots. They had at least 160 slots. Uh, they're moving to Boulder, maybe they'll have more, I don't know, and 16,000 entries. So that's 1% acceptance rate.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Right. So, and that's for films that are, and many of them probably already have um the the programming committee has their eyes on them for various reasons from earlier on, whether they're films that were that went through the Sundance Institute or films that um are going to be looked at, uh probably uh in higher regard because of filmmakers that have played there before, you are um you're you're looking at you know that scenario. So instead of necessarily, and don't prevent yourself from taking big swings at big festivals, but maybe a shift from what's the biggest festival, instead of asking yourself that, maybe start asking which festival is the right fit for your film. Because it's so competitive to be an independent filmmaker, you start with that question and you start thinking about what is the story of the rollout of your film. So in doing that, you need to align what I would think is this is a relationship. And what are the festivals that are out there are best aligned with what your values of your film are, what your qualities are, where the salient points are, what story uh, you know, qualities are there that that relate to the festival you want to get into. And it's not just like, you know, 1% chance, maybe less than 1% chance with most prestigious independent film festival in the world. Seems like maybe you're buying a lottery ticket, doesn't it? But instead of right, instead of thinking about that, think about your film festival entries as an investment. And do your research, find out what the goals of the festival are, what the ethos is, who the programmers are, what they've played before, and start to see how your film is a lot aligned with the potential film festivals you're submitting to. So be strategic basically, in a way that's really authentic.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Well done. All right. Well, why did you choose Galway?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Galway was just a great fit for a lot of reasons. Number one, it's a festival that is uh well established. It's just it was in its 38th year. It's uh the most um uh you know prominent in in Ireland. And Ireland's a great place to start for the film because of its large Ukrainian community and Ireland's support for Ukraine. So it just felt like a really good place to um launch the film. Also, you know, we talked about quality, you know, what being aligned with the philosophy of a of a film festival. Well, Galway is though it's it's um an important festival that has a lot of attention um from the film community, it's also just very grassroots, it's very open. And, you know, the team that was there to represent the film was very much like that. I came with um, I was very lucky. I had James Feeney, the very talented editor, who came with us. Um, we had, yeah, my co-producer Rick Santos, uh, who helped shape the film by watching several cuts and was my only contact while I was in Ukraine. Um, LB Kerr Gilman, who was uh helping coordinate and shape outreach and helping us uh connect and publicize the film, someone I've known for years. Uh when I went to film school, uh she and I uh became friends and uh we've worked on each other's project. So, you know, I talked about all these hatchy wear. It's you know, the place, a place where you want to communicate to a film festival, you're gonna bring some value. Sometimes that value is community. And the thing about Galway we found is community is really valued. So we were able to, though the the you know, the staff is very, very busy, we were able to come by and check in with them. And one of the things that we um uh we can talk about this in a little bit, but you always want to add value to your screening. And one of the things that we did was we were very lucky in um having one of the surviving subjects, one of seven, come from the war zone in Ukraine and get sp permission from his commander to join us in Ireland. Oh, and it resonated so well with the audiences, with the festival, and with Ukrainian um community members to have him uh be there as a part of our not just to represent the team, Carol, but to be part of that team I mentioned. We were all there in it together to um create this experience for the film, to represent the film, and to interact with this kind of open sense of community at Galway.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

That's incredible. Well, tell me how uh did you prepare for the world premiere?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, so uh, well, it wasn't just buying a plane ticket and getting that DCP ready. It was preparing not just for the screening, but it was preparing an experience. So I should say that, you know, one of the things you should be thinking about, your your audience when you're getting ready in a festival said yes, is beyond those preparations of how you get there and how your film gets there, is you know, those those um hats you wear of publicist, strategist, coordinator, you know, building this community, think about those things and how you can do it. Uh, two of my good friends uh who are uh very experienced and well-respected filmmakers, um, Patrick Farrell and Kato Callahan, uh have advised me throughout the years. And one of the things they said is what's important is you need to shift the focus from where your film, what the festival can do for you and what you can do for the festival. Bums and seats is what they said in quotes. Bums and seats. Get the festival uh, you know, venue filled with um people who um, you know, you the festival likes it when you can um promote the film and create this experience. So part of the experience and part of this storytelling is what we would provide is not just a screening of a film that we're proud to show the world, but an introduction and a Q ⁇ A with someone who lives the experience uh that lives the experience past the final frame of the film. And afterwards, we encouraged, and beforehand, we encouraged people to come and talk with us, and particularly his name is Bogdan Patel, junior lieutenant Bogdan Patel, to talk about what his experience is, you know, facing um uh the dangers of of a of a war zone and what it's like to have grown up. He was 19 when we began the film, he's 23 now. So what we wanted to do is prepare for an experience. And that's what I would suggest everybody to do, you know, as like Patrick and Kate says, don't ask what your festival can do for your film, but what your film can do for the festival. That's a really good guiding principle. Don't take for granted that once you've gotten to a film, it's all gonna sort of launch from there. Be a part, be a partner in a line with that festival that you've done your research uh to see that you know this is a good candidate for you submitting. Once you're there, go with that. See what's you have in in uh line with it and bring uh bring a lot of value to it.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Well, how did you attract press attention? Okay, that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Well, it's it's back to the storytelling. You know, you're you're telling a story, you're bringing the value you're bringing is something that we're we're we're also trying to bring with those videos you mentioned, the the behind the scenes, the making of videos. We're creating a story of what the film is about. We're collecting um stories from making it, but in resonating that, you are you have a narrative to go to. So remember, journalists aren't covering movies, they're covering stories. So you what's your story? You know, rather than just setting blasting a press release, you identify the reporters, the podcasts, the morning shows, the newspapers that care about, for in my instance, in this instance, Ukraine, documentary filmmaking, um, human rights, international affairs, the process of making a film. Um, you know, and and so you're again, you're aligning what your story is with those press people, uh with those journalists, with those uh podcasters. And don't be shy. Reach out to them. They uh, you know, they they want to engage with their audience too. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that this whole storytelling that you're doing, this value that you're bringing, it starts while you're making the film and while you're identifying what is important uh for the world to see as you're developing it. That carries forward. And so your story uh you're trying to attract press attention with is we have this store, this film that's very important. It should probably always be this is the story that's important to me, and this is why it might be important to your audience.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Excellent. Well, and so how did you build your community support? You went out to the community uh with your story to get them into the theater, is that how you?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

In it exactly, and that's so key. We were really lucky. One of the um journalists that connected with our our film was Teresa Mannion, um, uh, an ace uh reporter in uh RTE, and we had our film covered on the nightly news 6-1. And um that was part of um not just reaching out to her, but right away uh we had help from people within the community, uh, the Embassy of Ukraine in Ireland, um, Telegram and WhatsApp channels, um, local filmmakers like Kate and Patrick who could help us identify connections to that community, uh, and invite them to be there. So everything from uh you know, seeing where things resonate, one discussion with one person will open up another discussion point, which is you know, you might find um you connect with somebody on an Instagram thread, uh, you know, do searches for us, it was Ukrainian community in Ireland, um, do searches for other people that are uh you know posting that have a community. And one of the things we did was we recorded videos, these in the spirit of the behind-the-scenes videos, we recorded videos with the soldiers, Bogdan and the commander, who could not be there, but Bogdan could, in Ukrainian, saying, Hey, the film, the film's happening on this date and this time, July 10th at uh 2.25 p.m. Uh, um, would love to see you in Ukrainian. I'll be there, or I'd like to be there, depending on who was saying it, but speaking their language and encouraging them not just to come, but to have this experience we talk about, sense of community. So um it's from a lot of different directions, and it's part of your building on the storytelling. You know, you're you're creating new new content, so to speak, that's very specific to the community support you're trying to build.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Well, and then when you screened it, uh, how did you engage the audience? Because you uh tell us how you put that all together.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So once you have it as you know, you know, I'm being very specific to our film and it's related to Ukraine and and human rights and uh and international um, you know, uh geopolitics, uh, and it but essentially it's it's a story about human beings and people, and whether you care about any of that or not, we make a film that's about relationships and about people. That's an aside from your question, but that's also guiding us, you know. So after we created this event, it's starting to be something more than that. You're beginning a relationship, you're furthering your relationship with a festival who is kind enough to provide you a screen or two for your um your discovery, but that's really what film festivals provide by and large is discovery. And it's discovery by the people in that room. So you're creating a relationship. And I I think about that in the intro and the QA. This film is for you, and you let them know that um we're just that this is something bigger than just the screening afterwards. We had Bogdan there, the filmmaker. I'm sorry, I think of him as a filmmaker, the subject of the film. And we really use that to transform the discussion. So he was, you know, we talked about, we entertained any questions about the making of the film, but we really want to transform that into discussion about what he was experiencing. Because while he was there for a few days, he was also gonna be returning to his own journey. And we wanted to have that be something unique to that audience experience of our world premiere. So we talked, we listened, we met people before the screening. One of the messages we gave was if you come a little earlier, we're all gonna be here and we'd love to talk to you and then encourage people afterwards in our Q ⁇ A. We're gonna be outside, we're also gonna be, we're in Ireland, we're gonna get a pint afterwards. Let's continue this relationship of filmmaker to audience and really let's bring that line down of screen to to um uh filmgoer to something that is um that's alive and continues.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Oh, that's brilliant. Now let's get into after you won the award, um, were you able to use the award to attract more festivals or press coverage or screening partners?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, you know, um, so many times it's easy to get in this trap of chasing laurels and awards. And though it's great to win an award, and I'm so honored, and I know everyone else is, um it's uh important to keep in mind as we're all as we're all filmmakers and on the same path, is to remember awards don't change your film. They it seems like they do, but what they do is keep in mind they change the conversation around your project, around your film. So in our case, we have our world premiere and we want to play more places. We happen to win Best International Documentary, and it was a thrilling experience. But in getting this award, immediately we started sending a press release to let people know of this because we want to have this experience that we're describing happen and be replicated, to have this um not just this uh screening, but this experience and this engagement and this relationship to expand. So right away um we started sending out emails, letting us let letting people know of the news and also the narrative that we were there, we engaged with the community, we had a pretty, you know, we had a great turnout, we also had you know coverage on on television, but we did that not to promote the film, we did that to continue this engagement. And um, what that did, what winning the award changed was people were returning our emails quickly, journalists became curious, and you're gonna find new opportunities appear. Um, but you know, the film stands on its own, the film has to deliver. And um, you know, filmmakers, I just say invest in the festival itself. If you're gonna be engaged, generous with your time, be supportive, be engaged while you're at that festival. And it's really important to think about what winning that award is gonna do, but follow through with with your relationships you have with the the audience that came to your film, the um the staff, uh the programmers, um, the community. Remember that while you're still there because those relationships can be as valuable as the award.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Well, did you capture the any of the email addresses of the people who attended?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

That's such an important thing to do, Carol. And it's something I did not do. I got names, I got Instagram, I got contacts in other ways like WhatsApp and all those things. But you're right, that email list is as important as it was when we started this, and then you know, when I started, at least in the 90s, is you want to continue that journey for the people who are interested enough to engage with you where the new screenings are. Building that email list is essential. And that's something I think um I'm gonna make sure we we are very uh focused on uh for our next screenings.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Do you remember the old clipboards that Alvin produced? A clipboard with a lined paper saying, please keep me informed about this film and pass that, have people pass it to the audience while you have the afterboard QA. That's what I would recommend. It's so valuable.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Pen, paper, and a clipboard. You know, that's that's never going to be obsolete. Let's get these emails going. And uh yeah, and it, you know, and in the act of doing that, that that's that's engagement, you know, and that's also you're thinking about, you know, a lot of what I'm describing is is you know, continuing this storyline. Um, but there's uh there really what you're doing is you're making a film not for journalists and festivals, though that's so important. You're making a film for the audience, and this is the core audience, the people that come to see your festival, your film. And their word of mouth is as important as social media because they're they had an experience that you um participated in with them. With so having those email addresses, yeah, absolutely. No, Carol, yeah, a paper uh with a nice uh intro, like still let's stay engaged here.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Uh Zachary, Jonah Berger wrote a book called Contagious, How to Make Things Go Viral. And it's a great book, but when you close the last page and put the book down, you think word of mouth is still the best marketing tool in the world. So what you have at a festival like that with an audience is word of mouth. They are so important to continue to uh keep the life to keep the film alive with them because you never know what you need more money for. And they would come to your aid, I believe, financially.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Stay connected, right? That's what that is. That email list and everything else is staying connected. Keep telling the story, not just of your film, but what you're saying is tell the story of you as a filmmaker, as a storyteller for future projects.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

You're not just collecting followers, you're building relationships, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Exactly. This is the new world for filmmakers. We you we have to be attached to a filmmaker who, knowing we know this filmmaker, we know he will bring us or she will bring us the information we want. I see that as a future way for filmmakers. And I want to see a little short, uh, two minutes. Well, why did you start to make this film? And how, how, what is your connection to the material? Because then that really connects us to you personally. And I see that it's the future.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Absolutely. You know, it is, it's also storytelling, right? These, you know, you're you know, you don't want social media to be advertised. We're talking about a lot of things, but we're talking about social media. And, you know, uh, I created these behind-the-scenes videos, and I recommend everybody doing that, even if you're just writing a script, document what you're doing in a way that can be told, but not for promotion or marketing for your film. Uh, you want it to become part of, I think what you're saying is you want it to be an extension of the filmmaking experience. Behind the scenes moments are they have the potential being viral. You'll notice when you look on, I like Instagram, you'll notice when you go to behind-the-scenes content of people, you know, on set, uh preparing for a scene, or those that content has a higher rate of following and likes than most things I see on my feed. Why is that? Because we're vicariously looking at how things are done. We're all of us, no matter what level of our career, I'm always aspiring and curious about how things are done. So, yeah, you're building it, you're doing something more than just advertising, but you're creating moments that tell who you are, how you're telling, what your team is doing, and how you're creating something. And so when people finally see your film, they have kind of a new uh starting point for how they see what you've you've done. And in this film and in others, right, Carol? Because that's really what we're talking about is you know, this this is not just one um enterprise. This is uh, you know, you put your heart, your soul, and all your money into making a film, but we're filmmakers and we're talking about the kind of story, the values we have in telling them and what it was like. So yeah, that's all you know, translates into word of mouth, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yes, it does. Um, it's really important. So that takes to my next question. How can filmmakers attach influential supporters where like uh executive producers, nonprofit organizations, experts, all of these people that you need to help you uh fill up seats in America or Germany or wherever you want, but how do you think that people can go after influential supporters?

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Well, when you identify who those people might be, start to ask what is what intersects with their values and their mission. So if you start to say what's naturally uh what your story and who you are as a filmmaker and what you've made intersects, connects with their values, what their mission is. That's a good starting place because then you're not just asking someone to endorse your film or watch it. You have a shared purpose, and that creates something authentic, a potential partnership, because that's what you're asking for, right? You want something that's authentic, that starts in a place that's much just much stronger than someone you know reacting to something that you've you that you've created to get them to promote your film. It's you're asking for someone to come to uh your your film, your table, because what you're doing naturally resonates with them.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

And well said. Okay, so let's talk about what does a filmmaker need for self-distribution? Share with us what you feel are the most important things to focus on.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, I wrote this down because I I think it's important to be very targeted with this. Um, you know, I wrote this down when we were getting towards picture lock, and which, by the way, we talked about picture lock, picture lock earlier. That is uh it's it's less of a clear point, right? Because we remember when picture lock was because you had your your work print and you locked it because you were gonna create uh, you know, uh a print and a sound mix from it. And so we can always open up uh Picture Lock based, which is a nice thing about festivals, is you can get a little bit of a response either from your team, yourself, or from people there to deep, you know, shape a little bit more some moments. But um, you're talking about self-distribution and what you need to do. Like I think it's always like I'm always bringing with me either uh on my phone, right, making notes about what we need to add to the list of what's required to self-distribute or get it to um you know to get it to a large stage. Uh, and that changes as you're as you're having people watch it. But I mean, I think the same things in you know in the 21st century apply. You need a website, you need a trailer, you need artwork, you need a press kit, and as you had said, and I just added to my list, is you need an email list, email mailing list. Um, and as you go, we talk about community partners, um, you know, and that that's a growing list as well. But you also you need to start thinking about just something beyond just traditional, what we think of as distribution, getting it on streamer. You know, you have educational distribution, thinking about who the partners are there, uh, thinking about maybe getting it to um, you know, um potentially a sales agent. That's not always uh the case for every film, but you need to think about how those different levels of outreach, what your strategy is to get it to institutional viewings, like libraries, NGOs. And um, you know, really what you're doing is back to what we talked about before is if you're an independent filmmaker, you're building things, you're not having things come to you. So being organized, having that website, trailer, artwork, press kit, email, mailing list, that list of partners, a strategy for you know, grassroots distribution, uh, and uh and a and a you know strategy for going even bigger if you can. You're building that basically that infrastructure that allows your film to succeed.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Well, great. Thank you so much for that. So, what is your distribution plan for Brace for Oblivion? Uh, are you planning on uh reaching? How are you gonna reach all the audiences and earn revenue?

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, earning revenue. I know. Yeah, I should be focused on that. Um, and that uh right now, Carol, I gotta be honest with you. Right now, I'm my primary focus is the festival rollout. This is a time to strike because you know, every festival is an opportunity to introduce the film to a new audience. Start that process we're talking about over. And in doing that, that cute that experience, that connection with audiences, creating that new audience, you build momentum and those relationships we talk about building during the screening, you strengthen them. And you know, you also learn from that experience. So, you know, the team that were that comes to these festivals, we're all taking notes and we're seeing what resonates because this is um word of mouth, this is a connection, and festivals, you know, also create discovery, they create an opportunity for press, they create an opportunity for um, you know, discovery from an audience. And you can learn from that. So this the festival strategy is a part of our distribution strategy. Each screening helps expand the reach, potentially new supporters and advocates, and it opens the doors to people who could uh help find you know distribution opportunities like not beyond the streamers, um, broadcasters potentially, um, other uh other ways of you know not just looking at one platform to get your film out, but you need to be disciplined. And right now we're just we're focusing on uh thinking about what that festival distribution can give to the film as we just focus on rolling it out from one territory to the other.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Well, and the there's a friend of mine who uh went, she took her film to 50 Film Festival. So I said, Why that is such a trick. She said, Yes, Carol, but I found the market through the festivals by talking to the audience afterwards. Where do you think this film belongs? And so this was a film of Big Sophie. Uh, it was about her grandmother. You may remember Maury Warszawsky, who used to help uh documentary filmmakers. So this is about his mother who refused to give up when the whole uh shopping center closed down. She kept her little sewing shop open and at 80 some odd years old went to work every day. So the audiences told her that uh people in prison loved this. Because these people it showed determination and uh and respect for their own work, and it and it also taught her to take it to hospitals where people were recovering. They took energy from this woman's determination not to be shut down. It was her ability to interview people at the festival on where this film belongs. And that's an idea you might be able to use.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

It sounds like what she did is shaped her distribution strategy during that 50 film Odyssey, is what was what was working, what was what was the path forward. And it seemed probably, I'm not sure if that's what she initially intended is is to show it to you say to uh people incarcerated. Is that what she said, Carol? Yeah. I don't know, maybe that was clear to her in the beginning, but I imagine it became, even if it were, it was crystal clear by uh somewhere in within that festival run. And yeah, you also get to get better at it, you know, you get to get you get to get better at defining what your film is, what its its salient features are, what it's best at. And um, you know, that's also good for you as a filmmaker because one of the hats we talked about was, you know, you're you're kind of an entrepreneur uh as a filmmaker. And I just wanted to get back to one one important thing. In 2026, going into 2027, so much of your audience is gonna be faced with, I would say, um the emotional pain of rejection, of not having the spot for the film that you would think is deserved because of the math here. And the film festivals are looked at as a gateway for discovery. And what I would say is strategy is important, perseverance is important, but really this is a part of your story. It's finding a way forward to connect with your audience. And if you remember that film festivals may feel like a gate that's hard to surmount, that is uh in front of you, I've I've heard, you know. So instead looking at it as this is just um, you know, film festivals are partners once you're in, but also think about what the goal is. You're connecting with an audience, like you said, you know, finding a way to connect with it. Because, you know, as you told me when I first met you, is films have a life of their own. And you you mentioned that in the context of making it. I was about to start shooting in a prison uh in Alabama. And I remember that when we were in Alabama and midway through shooting, another um uh jail in Maricopa County started incarcerating women. And I started to think, I think I called you and I said, Do you think I should go to Maricopa County? And you said yes. And I thought, well, I'm funding this myself. I'm in my 20s, I don't have a lot of money. We're back then, we're shooting on film. Should I take the leap? And the answer was yes. This is filmmaking, not film distribution, but or film, you know, or rolling out into a film festival. But it's the same thing that applies. You don't know what's ahead of you. The traditional pathways to get your film to an audience. And remember, that's essentially what we're talking about. We're talking about a festival experience uh rollout, is it's that. And your film might have a life of its own beyond making it and beyond rolling it out to a film festival. It might also have its moment in a way that you don't understand later. Um, so you know, keep your chin up, keep moving forward, and also just think about what your story is, what your story is for rolling out the film and what's connecting with people, because there is always going to be a hunger for good storytelling. And you've got something. And you know, what is it about it that differentiates your film from the other 16,000 that may submit to uh Sundance or another film festival?

SPEAKER_02 47:06

So it's all about story, story, story.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah, I think so. It's also, yeah, and I think we talked about before it is, and I think it's also about flexibility. And, you know, we talked about last time when you're making a film, is you know, step stepping into a storytelling vortex. I sort of said, you know, I made that up is just, but you know, it's it's seeing what's around you, it's putting yourself in the middle of it, understanding you're giving up control, and you may see something flying around in front of you that is the best, um, maybe part of something that's bigger. Uh, and you might be uh frustrated that you're you're on a path that you're not in control of, but that's part of it. That's part of making the film, that's part of distributing the film, it's also part of a way of connecting with your audience. So um understand that disruption and um chaos, that's part of storytelling.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Oh my gosh, people need to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Do we have a choice? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Thank you so much, Zachary, for being with us today. And thank you for the tremendous contribution that you've made to all of us through your work. Your life has been dedicated to bringing the truth to the screen through documentary filmmaking, and you've repeatedly gone where others might not go, and you've introduced us to people whose courage and humanity deserve to be recognized. With American Chain Gang, you exposed an injustice that needed to be seen and with brace for oblivion. You've given Ukrainian soldiers and civilians an opportunity to share their experiences, their sacrifices, their strength, and their remarkable solidarity with the world. So you've raised the consciousness of the planet through your dedicated work. I know you gave four years of your life to this film. So I you did all of this without knowing whether the film would be accepted, distributed, or even being seen. And that is the courage of a true documentary filmmaker. And I'm so proud to have known you all these years, and I'm deeply grateful for your friendship and for the extraordinary body of work that you've given us. So we congratulate you on winning the best international documentary at the Galway Festival, and we look forward to seeing Braceburg Oblivion reach audiences around the world. So thank you, Zachary, for your courage and compassion and your lifelong commitment to the truth. And to our audience, please join us next week for more of the art of film funding. Thank you, Claire, and thank you, Zachary.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Thank you so much.