Block by Block: A Show on Web3 Growth Marketing

[AUDIO] Yurii Kyparus on Tokenizing Attention with Wallchain Quacks

• Peter Abilla

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Summary

In this conversation, Yurii, co-founder of Wallchain, shares his journey into the crypto space, detailing his experiences with MEV bots and the transition to developing Wallchain Quacks. The discussion covers the importance of attention in the crypto market, the challenges of building a consumer brand, and how Wallchain Quacks aims to quantify and leverage attention for influencers and brands. Yurii also addresses the competitive landscape, the two-sided market dynamics, and the blockchain aspects of their product, while outlining future plans for expansion and feature development.

Takeaways

— Yurii’s journey into crypto began with his co-founder Max during their academic years.
— They transitioned from B2B MEV protocols to B2C products due to market inefficiencies.
— Attention is a fundamental currency in the crypto space.
— Wallchain Quacks aims to quantify attention for crypto projects.
— The platform seeks to eliminate middlemen in influencer marketing.
— Loyalty and consistency are prioritized in rewarding influencers.
— The focus is on creating a new market rather than competing with existing players.
— The product is currently in closed beta with plans for future expansion.
— On-chain activity will be used to validate influencer credibility.
— Future features will include leaderboards and support for multiple content types.

Chapters

(00:00) Yurii’s Journey into Crypto
(06:09) Transitioning to Wallchain and Market Analysis
(12:47) Introducing Wallchain Quacks
(19:09) Differentiators and Competitors in the InfoFi Space
(25:26) Building a Two-Sided Market
(31:37) The Blockchain Aspect of Wallchain Quacks
(41:07) Future Roadmap for Wallchain Quacks

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See other Episodes Here. And thank you to all our crypto and blockchain guests.

Yurii, co-founder of Wallchain, welcome. Hey, hey Peter, happy to chat today, thanks for having me. Yeah. Before we get into what you're up to at Wall Chain, would love to hear about how you got into crypto. And I'm specifically interested in how come you stay? Sure, happy to share all the story. So I guess we can start from like eight years ago when I met my co-founder Max when I was doing my master's in computer science and Max was doing his PhD in machine learning. We both were like technical all our life and worked closely. After studying, we got into like Google, Facebook. Y Combinator and I actually bought my first crypto in 2017, BTC and ETH, it was local highs. Then I turned it to some ICOs, which was a great lesson for me, not a great investment. And later in 2021, Max and me, we started building full-time on chain. We started with MEV bots. basic arbitrage bots getting more more advanced and later it became an AB2B MEV protocol which later became one of the most used MEV protocols integrated by PancakeSwap, QuickSwap and many other DEXs and at the peak we had more than 2 billion dollars monthly volume and continuing from that we were like fully MEV guys and we switched completely from that like a year ago and we switched to B2C products and we were analyzing the market, analyzing what's happening with B2C products. And MEV is more like finding inefficiencies, gaps where something can be done better. It's quite, it's not easy, it's challengeable, but it's doable in MEV because everything is on chain, it's transparent. You can check the formulas, everyone exchange with some formula. And in B2C, it's a lot about marketing, attention, and a lot of humans interacting with each other, and it's not in shape. And it has so many inefficiencies, so many gaps. And we decided that here, that's the place where our attention has to be. That's where we... There is an enormous room for improvement here. Yeah. And that's how we switched to Wallchain Quacks. Now MEV is minor extractable value. Is that correct? Okay. The main, minor extracted value, it was like one of the first definitions. Later it became like maximum extracted value because that value became extracted by many participants, many players of the order flow. Now in your work with creating MEV bots, I'm curious about what kind of human psychology you learned as you develop that product to take away some of the inefficiencies in yield and how is that helping you as you're building Wall Chain now? So one of the learnings was if there is an inefficiency, if there is something to be extracted, it will be extracted. There are too many sophisticated players and they're watching closely everything and they extract every tiny bit. it's one cent to be extracted, it will be extracted. And the game there was to make sure that those extractions goes to the right hands, those who create the order flow, those who is the originator of the order flow. So we were building a more fair solution. Instead of some unknown sophisticated bots, we were extracting value back to originate. to users, back to liquidity providers, back to the DEX, back to the app. And now with our audience in 2024, the value is extracted by many players and weird thing that it's not really known. and you cannot do some sort of backtesting because it's all under the table deals. Like there are a lot of players in the market, people with influence, brands, projects, protocols, they all want some attention, because attention is fundamentals. That's in our Twitter bio. To back it up, there are projects that have great product, earning enormous... having enormous revenue, but that token is down only because they didn't play their token attention game quite well. And we all know tokens that have billions in valuation and they have literally zero product. They're purely playing with attention. Attention is fundamental. Some say that attention is a new currency, but it's actually been a currency for hundreds of years because there is an old saying, Pay attention. I mean, it's not like a saying, it's just a phrase that I pay attention to. You basically pay with your attention everywhere. When you like watch something like the current podcast, when you're on some Twitter or other social media, you always pay with your attention. And to this point, there was no great tool, great way, great technology to make those attention flows or the flows of attention more efficient. to measure them, to evaluate them, and to reward for them. And now when we have AI so advanced and crypto, we can make it happen. I hadn't actually thought you say these phrases and you just don't really pay attention. But you're right. Pay attention. I mean, I say it probably once a day at least pay attention with especially since I have children. Hey, pay attention. But now I'm going to think about that and really reflect on that. So let's talk about Wall Chain in transition to what was the original problem that you guys saw that that led you to develop wall chain as a solution to the problem. Like what was the main problem? Yes, so in 2024 we experimented with different problems. We were doing a lot of market research, talking to hundreds of users, reading, writing about bunch of stuff and we were in B2C. So we had to explore the B2C landscape and in parallel to make a better research, we have created our own crypto Twitter analytics tool. And we made it a Chrome extension, which we used internally. Then we shared with a few friends, a close circle using it, got some really positive feedback. We decided to launch it publicly, launch it on our Twitter, on a few forums like Alliance DAO and Orange DAO. In two weeks, we got 10,000 installs. And currently, we are sitting at almost 3,000 daily active users. So it was... growing quite exponentially. We immediately thought there was something in it and we see this tool that helps to measure crypto Twitter, gives you a single most important piece of information when you scroll Twitter and we combine it with the problems that we faced ourselves, which is building a consumer brand. talking to like KOLs, influencers, trying to build some content strategy, do some like posting, participate in conferences, build our brand, build our awareness. It's a huge challenge, especially for us since we were not experts in it. We were building an MEV B2B protocol for more than two years. We had like seven customers and we didn't really need... anyone to know about us. We have some customers, we're happy with that. And now it's B2C, and now we see marketing, and now with our previous experience, we see how we detected some inefficiencies and we see similar inefficiencies in it. Because for example, on chain, if you have some token, token A, I have token B, we exchange those tokens with some known formulas like Uniswap v2, Uniswap v3. V2 maybe is not that effective, but it's still some like market standard which has some level of effectiveness of like it's good to use it's at least some standard and if we give some projects They want to bring their awareness, build their brand, increase their mind share. They hire a lot of marketing people. marketing managers, do some deals with KOLs, influencers, they pay for some advertisements, they pay for some marketing, and it's usually so inefficient, and a lot of middlemen take huge cuts, and you don't have control over the results. So you pay ahead some enormous amount of money. Like marketing has been one of the biggest categories, expenses for crypto startup, because like brand... Brand in crypto is the biggest mode. Everything is permissionless. You can fork any protocol, launch it, you have the technology. And everyone can easily switch and it's constantly improving. And brand is actually the biggest mode. Most of the exchanges, have the same functionality, wallets have the same functionality. people trust other people, people trust teams, people trust brands. So to build brand you need to increase your mindshare, need to have influential people to talk about you. So you find like some VCs, QLs, influencers. projects make under the table deals and then they don't know what to expect. They sign the contract and many times both of the sides are not happy with what's going on because the project doesn't have control over the results and influencer has some strict contract which he has to follow and it kills creativity. And they must basically shill this project for some period of time, which looks fake, which looks inorganic, and it doesn't really deliver the result that was expected. Yep. And with AI and crypto, it all can be measured now with the techs that we developed to analyze the influence of crypto Twitter accounts. you can better analyze what value, what can be delivered from specific influencer, from specific girl. And it may be not only the influencer in those terms, it's just a person with influence, which is often a founder, some founder or VC or just some expert or researcher, a journalist and so on. Yeah, if it answers your question. No, that's helpful. Let's transition to the product. So Wall Chain Quacks is a product you guys launched with. And it sounds like one of the main problems was, or the opportunity was that in crypto, brand is everything. It's one of the biggest moats because everything can be forked. People become loyal or more, they become loyal users of a specific brand. And so you, sounds like you develop wall chain quacks to be able to quantify attention and be able to help marketers and brands, you know, harness that attention. So tell us about wall chain quacks. Like how, how does it help crypto projects better understand mind share and harness that attention? if there isn't attention right now, how do they get that attention through wall chain quacks? Yes, so the goal with watching quacks is to build the most efficient solution for influential people, for influential individuals to leverage their influence. The most efficient is the best way for them to make a use of their influence. For example, if someone with an influence, they can write about some technology, they can write about some project. If they want to get rewarded for that, They need to go and somehow connect, find a warm intro with that project, talk to them, make a deal, negotiate the deal, sign a contract again. And sometimes it takes weeks and these contracts create some additional constraints for them for a few months or for a year or for a few years. So it takes a lot of time. It involves a lot of bureaucracy. Many middlemen are involved that take significant cuts. Sometimes it's marketing agencies that also take a cut. so influencers, they lose lot of time, they lose a lot of money because of that middleman and bureaucracy, and they also kill creativity because of these tight contracts. And with this approach, they can write about the project they're interested in instantly and get rewarded for it much sooner than it would be with a previous old approach and those rewards will be much more fair and they're being rewarded more because there are no middlemen. I see. Right now, I think it's becoming called the InfoFi or AttentionFi economy or category. I'm curious to know about, maybe we can approach it like this. I think there's a couple of competitors that are pretty well known in the InfoFi category. I'd love for you to tell us who you consider competitors to Wall Chain Quacks. and maybe share with us how how Wall Chain Quacks is different than the competitors. Sure, yes. are many projects that offer some attention or influence. Everywhere where you can increase your brand, make some advertisement, marketing and so on is in some sort of competitor. But I guess we are too early to be into competing with each other. It's more about creating the market with a better technology. And we want everyone to... to grow in this space and everyone to embrace it. It's not that much about competition, but more about creating a new market and taking different places in that market. And if we answer your question about what makes us different, what sets us apart, how do we see ourselves in this market? We don't focus on differentiation for the sake of it. We're building for utility. We're building to deliver the values that the community wants. And this value is being the most efficient place to leverage influence. And if we go deeper into the details of the product, we can talk about what specifically makes the product different. When we talk about the product, it's the content. We want to keep the content organic and don't change the style of user posting. in any way, we don't want users to make it look like shilling or some artificially sponsored content. We don't want to change the style of posting of users. Additionally to that, we eliminate all of the spam, bot, automations, so humans read and they also write. So people don't compete with bots. There are accounts that post a reply every 5-10 minutes and it's impossible for a person to compete with those automations. So we eliminate all of that. Third point is loyalty or we can also say consistency. For example, if someone has been posting about a project for a year, they should be rewarded more to continue posting about it rather than someone who has been posting about it for a week. In this way, we prioritize loyalty and consistency. So people don't change their opinions like every week and people lose trust and we are like all in a chaos marketing shielding landscape. Point number four is on-chain footprint. We will take into account on-chain footprint. which means that if someone has big volumes on some protocol, a lot of transactions, the public opinion of this person is valued more than someone who has never used that protocol. So the person may be not that popular, the account may be not that big, not an influencer or something, but he's really a power user and his opinions matter, his opinion matters much more. That's... That's the fourth point. And if we talk more general about the company and the team, we apply our MEV background, our approach with finding inefficiencies and quickly eliminating them. And we have a 10 years background in AI, which mostly comes from my co-founder, who has a PhD in ML and contributed to research at Grammarly. And that's it. The so I have a couple of questions on the the main differentiators of Wall Chain Quacks. One of the the issues that I see right now in some other InfoFi projects is that they posters are rewarded for for engagement, even though some of that engagement is really low quality. So, for example, I saw a post the other day And it was just garbage. It was nothing. But it had lots of likes, a lot of comments, lots of reposts on X. And I think that that post, even though it didn't share, it wasn't high quality, I think got rewarded a lot of points from another project. And so how do you determine, I guess, how do you factor in the quality of the post? versus engagement? Because some posts are high quality, but not a lot of engagement. And some posts are really, really low quality, but lots of engagement. How do you deal with that situation? Yep, totally understand you and let's start with engagement. So why engagement is highly rewarded? Because if people interact with this post, with some post, even if it's like some meaningless clickbait or something like that, provocative, it brings distribution. Because people comment, other people see that other comment, if it's high quality people, it brings distribution. Distribution is important for companies. And I believe that's one of the reasons why this is rewarded highly. the early stages of our algo, we have similar rewards per priority. We're still at early stages, but improving the algo daily. Recently, we added the quality score. So basically, we specifically find... those kind of examples on Twitter, because people complain and you can easily find it on Twitter, where they see that the post was rewarded too much by being not that quality, not that insightful, not that unique. So people don't really learn much from reading that. They just argue. And there are posts that our researchers find valuable or other people find valuable, but not many engagement on it. So we specifically train our model to take additionally quality into account. And the structure of it and how insightful is the content of the tweet. And is X one of the primary channel right now that you gather, that you measure attention on? Or are you also looking at different channels? X is the only channel right now. We're still early and currently focused specifically on X. In the future we're considering other platforms like YouTube, TikTok, but that also involves other types of content like videos, images. It's all on the roadmap, but a bit later, yes. Yeah. Okay. No, that I think this helps a lot. Now, one of the major players I think is Kaito. And in prior interviews, you've been, people have brought up Kaito and then are curious like how would wall chain quacks be different from Kaito or even Cookie 3 or I met with Addressable a few days ago and they're they're trying to address the same problem around attention. I'm curious to know your viewpoint on Kaito, on YAPs versus Wall Chain Quacks. And if you want to comment too on Cookie 3, as well as Addressable, I'd love to hear that. Because I think a lot of people are trying to address this problem of attention or this opportunity and it's a really hard, it's a hard area to deal with. and to address. Yes, firstly, we see a world like we only at the beginning of this new market and there is definitely a place for all of us where all of these companies can be extremely successful. One of the differentiators is those companies that focus specifically on info file on analyzing data. providing some valuable information to customers. We are focused on attention fire and our goal is to become the best solution for influencers to leverage their influence. That's the core of our focus. That's the single point that we are rushing to. Not like to sell data, not to sell the information, not like the data selling business. That's what we see if we take a look from the high level, not specifically going into the details of the product differentiators. That's if we take a high level view. No, I think that helps. So looking at Wall Chain Quacks, there's, you know, I envision a two-sided market. On the one side, you've got influencers and KOLs or people that talk about products and projects and brands. And then on the other side are the brands that would benefit from all of that attention. How are you building this two-sided market? Yeah, so it's a classic kind of chicken egg problem of a marketplace where you have influencers from one side and influencers want to go to a place where there are projects, protocols that they like and brands projects they want to go to a place where there's a lot of influencers. So currently we started with influencers. I don't really enjoy the world of because many highly influential people don't really consider themselves influencers or care less. They're like experts in their niche. They're just like writing what they think and it turns out they are leaders of opinion. So how we approach it? We are not rushing to partner and to launch with projects, with brands, because we really want to keep it tight and extremely high bar. We want to partner with remarkable projects, utility focused, those that have high room for growth. So in Flan, not only projects that are like... on top of mind that everyone knows already about, but projects that have great utility that are really solving some problem, but they are not really known. So they have the biggest problem for brand. And this would be the best solution for them to grow their brand organically. So how we approach it? We launched our beta test on the 19th of February. like a private closed beta, send invite to a few people, got like 40 people in five, six days. Not much, but we like trying to keep it tight because we're still in closed beta. We're still iterating on our algo. We are still improving the product itself, UI, UX. Then we invited a few other folks like Adam Hollander and other people who started send a few invites to other people and... One day we started growing rapidly. We started getting like notifications on Twitter every second. And we see on the graph how users are joining like every 10 seconds. And overnight we grew from like 40 users to 30 highly influential people on crypto Twitter. It was a long night for us, barely sleep. And the day after that we grew to 600 people. And then we decreased the invites because we are actually not ready to that growth. We're still in closed private beta test. And our current goal is to polish the product, to make it look smooth, to make the onboarding optimized as much as we can. There is literally not much in the product right now. It's like onboard, sign up, claim your quacks for the last 30 days, and that's it. leaderboards are coming like the next week. So we already have like more than 800 highly influential crypto Twitter individuals. And yeah, that's what we have right now. Planning to add more features to it. Leaderboards, community leaderboards, like leaderboards for some other topics, not specifically for projects or protocols, but some like narratives, technologies and... expand from there and later add some remarkable, remarkable projects. We also focus on projects from Alliance DAO and Orange Nova, because we are members of these DAOs and they've been our early supporters. And we find many projects from these DAOs quite remarkable. Let's talk about Alliance DAO really quick since you brought it up. I think many people are familiar with Alliance DAO and Chao Wang and Imran. Tell us about your experience at Alliance DAO and how have they been helpful to you as an early supporter in projects? Sure, so firstly it's being the most helpful investor. Previously didn't have much experience with venture and I thinking like many investors can be helpful, but it turns out that in many cases it's not like that. Sometimes they provide really counterintuitive... feedback and recommendations that turn out to be correct and the way to go sometimes and they also provide brutal feedback which really helps us grow and we we seek for brutal feedback always that's that's a real that's really the point of growth for founders to know what they're doing wrong even they even if they're doing something average they must excel in it and to excel you must receive brutal feedback And that's one of the values we get from Alliance DAO. They go deeply into details of the product or of the narrative of how we position ourselves and go strictly to the points of our weakness where we can make great improvement. Now, going back to Wall Chain quacks, I mean, what you've shared so far, and it makes sense, the AI aspect of trying to quantify attention, what is the blockchain aspect of Wall Chain quacks? And maybe explain to us what that looks like on the back end and how, yeah, maybe just explain to us the blockchain aspect of it. Yeah, sure. So firstly, there is a bit of confusion with the name like Wall Chain sounds like blockchain, but we never had a blockchain and we like never planned to have a blockchain. But the on-chain aspect of it is like the rewards and payment for influence for attention. Because influential people, provide They provide high quality attention to something, to technology, product, project, protocol, anything. And they must be rewarded for that. And rewarding on-chain is the most efficient way to reward for something. that's the first on-chain aspect of it. Second is on-chain footprint. Take into account activity of the user. See how much the user has... into some specific protocol he's talking about. If it's significant, how significant it is, he should be valid more for his public opinion. How are you measuring the on-chain activity? Because many people use different wallets. Most of the wallets are not public. So let's say I talk a lot about Aave, but you don't know if I'm truly an Aave user. How do you measure my actual usage of Aave? Yes, so we are still like experimenting and doing research in this. It's not like fully This part of the product is not fully launched And the main challenge here as you mentioned is that some Influential people they don't want to reveal their address which has a lot of funds which has a lot of volume so we are we have some partners and We will probably use SDK proofs to prove that the user has this volume, the user has this transaction, the user has something without revealing his wallet. I see. Now going back to KOLs and influencers, I think there's, if we could just look at, I've worked with many KOLs and influencers and I think there's kind of two types that I think makes sense to talk about. The first type is just the influencer that gets paid to talk about a brand or a token. And a lot of these KOLs are often they don't disclose that they've been paid to talk about a token or a brand. I think there's issues with that. But that's one type of KOL. There's another type of KOL who have, they have public wallets and there are many people that follow their public wallets. And whenever these KOLs buy from that wallet or sell from that wallet, then there's a lot of buy and sell activity. What are your thoughts on measuring that kind of activity on on Wallchain as a to measure kind of their their level of influence? and by the way, when they do buy and sell from public wallets, these are often also kind of paid activities like the brand usually pays them in USDC. And then and then they use that USDC to buy the token of the company that gave them the USDC. And so it's also a paid activity, but it's paid in a way where it's paid for performance or paid for action versus pay for just talk about us. What do you think of those two types of KOLs and how are you, and I guess what's their role in terms of wall chain quacks? Yeah, so first of all, I guess, take some charge for posting about some projects on Twitter. The challenge, I guess, problem here is they don't really... They like take money to post about everything, to show everything. like some sort of grifting. Yeah. That's the real challenge and in our case the projects that are on our platform are not that kind of projects that participate in that activity. So top tier high quality projects that are not racking users. Maybe if someone has influence, they can write about the projects. If they write in something unique, insightful, which brings value to the community, they will be rewarded for that. in this way, those KOLs who are taking money to shell everything, they may have a... a better way to do things without racking their audience. Next about public addresses of Koals and the activity of the addresses. The first challenge here is to connect that the activity from the wallet impacted the market because the token can be falling and they may sell the token because it's falling. It will continue to fall. But was it really the issue? Was it really the trigger of this fall? It's hard to determine. If the project is growing because it's getting organic crops and they buy this token, are they the reason why this token started growing? They may be one of the small reasons, or big. It's hard to estimate. One of the... Community requests that we got is to add something like a caller badge. If someone is a good caller or a bad caller, what calls he did well, what calls performance. What he posted on Twitter about some asset, some token, and how it's performed after he has been bullish or bearish on it. And analyze this data and show it next to the rank of the user. That's something we are considering. It's on our backlog, but not in high priority in the upcoming weeks and months because we're really narrowly focused on building the most efficient solution for influential people. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I've personally seen, you know, I'm in a few trading telegram groups and some of the calls that are made in these telegram groups, you know, they'll make a call. The telegram group moderator will make a call. And literally you see it in the chart, how it just goes up, like almost immediately after they make the call. And so there seems to be a really high correlation between, at least in some of these telegram groups, the call and then the performance of the token. And then of course, you know, after, you know, there's a decay, you know, two, four, six, 12 hours later, you know, there's a decay, but the immediate impact from a call in some of these telegram groups up to maybe three to five hours after the call is really meaningful. And so I'm curious about how do you measure that? And that's a kind of a different type of attention because it's not about really what they say, but you also see it in their wallet. they say it and they also buy it. And the evidence of it is in their wallet. And so I'm, and I haven't seen that type of, that type of attention being quantified yet. And so I think that might be an interesting area to look into. Can I wonder what exactly would you want to quantify here? I think what you said is the quality of the caller. If they made five calls, how many actually, what was the impact of each of those calls and the gravity? What was the FDV increase after the call? That might be an interesting thing. And it's almost like a... You know, it's, it almost quantifies their prediction ability. Um, but it's also attention, you know, it's, it's, it's because they're calling attention to, to a project or a brand or a token that might not have a lot of attention, but there's potential. So I don't know. I think it's a couple of those things. It's, it's both attention. It's also predict the buying power. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. And so it's, it's an interesting area. And it's very niche because it's mainly in these telegram groups. It's not even on X. It also shows up on X, but it first shows up in these telegram groups. When it shows up on X, it's almost too late. So, and many of these telegram groups are also closed. And so it's also, it'll probably be difficult to be able to scrape that data and then put it into your algo. But that's, I'm seeing some of that and that might be an interesting area to, it's a niche, it's a niche to look into. Awesome. Well, Yurii, I guess what's next for Quacks? And then we'll talk about the promotion that you're making available for block by block listeners. But tell us about the, on the roadmap, what's next for Wall Chain Quacks and how people can become involved. Yeah, so we're adding more features to the product itself, leaderboards, community leaderboards, a way for users to measure their performance, see the performance of others. More leaderboards, improving our algo consistently, launching with remarkable partners, and the longer-term roadmap looks like adding more types of content. Videos, images and Twitter spaces actually see what Twitter people are speaking about on spaces More platforms YouTube, TikTok making the platform more decentralized more permissionless more more open, more transparent, maybe even open source in the algorithm at some moment and make it behave in a decentralized way, make it run in a decentralized way. That's a long-term roadmap. yeah. Okay. And you've been generous about providing invite codes to participating in Quacks. And so on the show notes, I'll share the URL and also the invite code so people can participate and become part of the community. well, this has been really enlightening, Yurii. Thank you so much for taking the time to tell the audience about Quacks and about your approach to the intention economy. Yeah, thank you Peter, thanks for having me. If anyone has any other questions feel free to drop them in the comments. We'll jump into it and answer. Awesome. Thank you so much, Yurii. Thank you, have a good one, take care. Cheers.

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Peter Abilla

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Yurii Kyparus Wallchain

Guest