Ep25: Minisode: The Skelton Brothers

Join Amy and Dawn as they delve into the mysterious disappearance of the Skelton brothers - three young boys who vanished without a trace in Michigan in 2010 and haven’t been seen since.

Transcript

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,680 [Music] 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:19,680 Hello and welcome to our podcast Talk Gruesome to me, where we talk about movies and shows that cover true crime, paranormal and horror. 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:27,920 I am one of your hosts, Dawn. I am currently located in Los Angeles and I think I'm pretty well versed in the horror genre, 4 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:35,360 especially those 80s classics. A quick fun fact about me? I have a very extensive crystal collection. 5 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:43,920 Hello, I'm Amy. I'm from Kentucky and my area of expertise for this podcast is paranormal. A few fun facts about me. 6 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:50,240 I'm an empath, I collect old dolls and you know, I've never flown on an airplane. Can you believe that? 7 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:57,920 Now, Dawn and I are also obsessed with true crime, so here we are. Talk Gruesome to me. 8 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:04,480 Hello, we are here for another minisode and we are covering a true crime case. 9 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:10,160 This was actually brought to my attention by a friend of mine who grew up in Toledo, 10 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,920 knowing that we have this podcast. She said, "Oh, do you remember this story from Morenci, Michigan? 11 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:22,400 I was actually already living in LA at the time, so I did not remember this story at all. 12 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:28,400 As soon as I looked it up, I mentioned it to Amy. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we have to cover this. This is horrible." 13 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:36,560 I did message the mom on Facebook. She didn't see it and you know, if you aren't friends with someone on 14 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,920 Facebook, sometimes those get hidden, so maybe she just didn't even know I messaged her, but I didn't 15 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:49,520 get a response. We still wanted to cover this though because of just the story. It's terrible. 16 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:56,480 Any stories I think that Amy and I can highlight with missing people, missing bodies, missing anything, 17 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,080 just for  awareness, we're going to want to start doing more of those. 18 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:06,720 Agree. Those are the stories that need to be told because I believe that there is someone 19 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:13,600 out there somewhere that's seen something. It may not even realize that they did, but by hearing 20 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:19,440 one of these podcasts or watching something on the news that comes up as an anniversary, 21 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:27,520 those little ways are ways to let it be known and maybe someone will realize, "Hey, I do remember this." 22 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:36,000 Yep, exactly. As always, we're going to give out some disclaimers. Some of these are just our opinions. 23 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,120 Some of them are going to be facts based on court documents. Some of them are alleged. 24 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:47,120 We always gather information from a lot of sources. Some of this is court testimony. 25 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:53,520 Some of these are interviews. Some of this was found online. We each watched a couple of different 26 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,520 shows. I think I watched one maybe on court TV, Amy watched a couple of other ones. 27 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:04,160 There is a lot of information that we collected from various sources. Some of it's fact, some of it's 28 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:11,920 alleged and again, just our opinions. We are going to cover the story of the three skeleton brothers 29 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:20,160 who had disappeared in Morenci, Michigan. The first child was Andrew. He was nine at the time of his 30 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:28,000 disappearance. Today, he would be around 24. His mom at one point had said just a little fact about 31 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:35,200 him that he wanted to be a teacher. We always like to highlight facts about victims. In this case, 32 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:41,680 we don't have a lot of them. I just grabbed a few little facts. The second child, the middle child, 33 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:48,320 was Alexander. He was seven. He would be around 22 now. His mom said that he was just like a 34 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:55,680 super caring kid. Always worried about everyone else. The last, the youngest brother was Tanner. He 35 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:02,480 was five at the time, would be approximately 20 today. He was in love with and obsessed and always 36 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:08,400 wanted to be around his older brothers. And she did say that they were always together all the time. 37 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:17,680 The dad's name is John Skeleton. I have trouble even referring to this guy as their dad, just because. 38 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:24,240 So in most instances, I'm probably going to be referring to him as John and not their dad. 39 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:30,160 That's just a little side note if you keep hearing me say, John. And then their mom, her name is 40 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:38,400 Tanya Zuvers. We did a little bit of a timeline. So Amy is going to cover that. Right. This, like 41 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:46,480 Dawn said, we don't have a whole lot of information. Their remains have not been found. They have not 42 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:52,240 found them anywhere living and well. There's just a lot that we do not know because John is not 43 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:58,160 speaking. I'm in the moment leading up. Neighbors and friends said that John, he was acting very strange. 44 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:04,640 He was not acting himself. And he was not taking care of himself. You could even tell that if you go 45 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:11,280 back in. I know that I watched some of the earlier court cases where they had kind of showed him coming 46 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:16,800 and going. I didn't really get to watch a lot of the earlier ones like a fool, but I did see snippets 47 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:23,520 of him coming and going and he didn't look, he didn't look very good at all. I'm going to even say 48 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:32,240 he looked like he might have been out there messed up beforehand on some kind of substance. I don't 49 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:39,360 know what that would be, but he definitely didn't not look like he was good mentally. And September 50 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:47,920 2010, Tanya files for divorce. And that happens after one day during school, John went and he 51 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:54,960 checked all three children out. And he was preparing to take them to Florida. Somehow Tanya gets 52 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,400 Word of this. I can't remember how she said that she did. I've watched little over hour of her 53 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:07,280 testifying court, but she got wind of it. She was able to actually stop that because something 54 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:14,720 just telling her it just was not right. When this started happening, she automatically filed for divorce 55 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:23,440 and she filed for temporary custody. That way she knew that it would not be as hard to fight. That 56 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,600 way she had it before before he went to Florida because if he had got to Florida with those children, 57 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,080 no telling what had happened or what kind of hoops that she would had to jump through. 58 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:42,160 Sadly, it wasn't much later. They did get in a blow up argument and he did happen to take off with 59 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,240 two of their children. One, she was able to keep from getting in the truck, but he did make it to Florida. 60 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:55,440 She did get to Florida as soon as she was able to. She got a lawyer. He lawyered up as well. They 61 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:03,120 come to the conclusion that the lawyer said he really needs to go home. She needs to go home. They 62 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:09,680 need to take the kids back where they live and the custody needs to go back as the judge in Michigan 63 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:17,200 had set it. We all know the story of what happened next. Of course, mom had the custody. That's where 64 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:24,640 we were sitting and they were visiting with their dad. Now, 2010 on Thanksgiving weekend, we start on 65 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:31,200 Wednesday, November 24. Tanya gave the kids to John for the holiday and John had made a Facebook 66 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:39,200 post that was really kind of fishy and made a lot of people kind of wonder what was going on. 67 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:45,520 He had made the post that he loved his wife very much. May God and Tanya forgive me. 68 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,680 Actually, during this court case that I was watching where she is going back and she was actually 69 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,560 trying at the beginning of this year or it may have been last year. I'm not sure of the exact date 70 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:04,640 of the case, but she was in court trying to get her children. I hate to say this, pronounced dead 71 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:12,640 so that she could further her standing with John. She said that she'd never actually seen that note 72 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:20,000 which I found. Yeah, I found that kind of strange. Okay, the way your face is going, 73 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:28,400 did you hear something different? No, but I saw screenshots of it. How could she not see it? 74 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,760 How bizarre. She said that she did not see it. I don't know if she was speaking about at that time 75 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:42,160 or when. She was trying to get her kids back. She knew that her father had made plans to go by 76 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:47,600 little outfits to go to a game that they were getting ready to go to. So she had called John 77 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,640 wanting to know if she could come and get the kids a little bit earlier than the plan three or four 78 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:58,960 in the afternoon. He said that he was not at home and he would call her back. She thought that it 79 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,760 would just be a cute little way for them to do it and she wasn't wanting to take away from John's 80 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:10,000 time, but she did want to share that time of picking out those clothes with the children. She waited 81 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:16,640 a little bit later and she did not live too far. She was staying at, I believe it was a family members, 82 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,520 I didn't catch that little detail because I was listening to some of the other ones, but I believe 83 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:28,400 it was a family member she was staying at and she could actually see the house from there and she 84 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:35,520 seen activity in the home and someone coming and going. So she calls him back and she was like, hey, 85 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:45,040 are you home? And he was like, no, actually I'm at the hospital. I have hurt my ankle and she was like, 86 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:51,120 okay, well, where are the kids? And he was like a woman that I'd met online not too long ago. She 87 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:56,320 is coming got them and she is going to bring them back to you at three or four. I kind of would have 88 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:04,880 panicked at that point, but I guess that was sufficient. And Tanya was like, okay, time starts getting 89 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:11,920 closer. The kids aren't showing and she talks to her lawyer. He said, now Tanya, you can't be calling 90 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:18,000 the judge, calling the police and jumping ahead of your gun. She said, no, she said 4:01. She said, 91 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:25,840 if my kids are not in my possession, I am calling the police. And she did so. And there we go right into 92 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:35,760 what comes next. She fights and she tries and still can't find her kids. I couldn't imagine. She said 93 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:44,640 that she has been on many podcasts. She has done shows. Gosh, it's 14 years later. That's crazy. 94 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:51,680 That is, that is wild. But the boys, they were last seen Thursday, November 25th in the father's 95 00:10:51,680 --> 00:11:00,720 backyard. November 26th, John's phone tracks 24 miles away at 4 a.m. in Holiday City, Ohio. 96 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:08,160 And back to Morenci. He was around the area for, I don't know, about an hourish give or take. 97 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:15,360 The Friday after Thanksgiving, he's supposed to return the boys at 3 p.m. I didn't know. I thought that 98 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:21,600 this was kind of strange. They asked her what time was the boy supposed to be returned. She said she 99 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:28,720 wasn't sure. It was three to fourish. So the prosecutor was like, so three or odd turn, I'm not sure 100 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,960 who was questioning her at that moment. But he was like, so we're going to say three and she was like, 101 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:38,320 yeah, that's fine. But I kind of thought that was weird. I would know even to this day, I'd still remember, 102 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,680 you know what time my children were supposed to be home. Anyways, that Friday after Thanksgiving, 103 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:50,000 he's supposed to return the kids at 3 p.m. That is on black Friday. She speaks to him in the morning 104 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:57,520 to ask if she can get them early. Again, like I just said, no go. Kind of iffy and wishy-washy 105 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:06,160 on where the kids are and explanation. She couldn't get much out of him. She did eventually speak to 106 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:14,960 someone in the ER though. They asked her, are you his wife? She said yes. I've already filed for divorce, 107 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,880 but we are not divorced yet. They was like, okay, well that's close enough. I would like to advise 108 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:27,840 you that he did try to commit suicide. She immediately asked the nurse that she was speaking with, 109 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:35,200 do you know where my kids are? No, there were no kids with him. There were no marks on his neck 110 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:44,320 and he did say that he had tried to hang himself. I've got my ideas of where that broken ankle come 111 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:51,680 from. Having no marks and claiming that that's how you try to commit suicide is sketch at best. 112 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:58,560 I never would. I just wouldn't. I would be the one that I'm going to talk about because I couldn't do 113 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:08,560 it to myself. If I were attempting to do that to myself and I broke my ankle, I don't think that I 114 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:18,800 would stop and go to the doctor. Right? You were on a mission of a sort. Right. So did that just hurt 115 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:26,080 and you abort mission? Apparently so. I'm not buying it. I'm not either. I'm not buying it. 116 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:33,440 And then we can go into some facts about John's story. There were several things 117 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:41,280 that he was telling people mostly Tanya, but the police, whoever. There was also a lot of, 118 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:48,480 I'm not answering that. Even in court, he was representing himself, first of all, but there was a lot 119 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,440 of, I don't want to talk about that item. I'm not going to say that kind of thing, which is 120 00:13:53,440 --> 00:14:02,800 again sketchy. And he looked like a wild man on top of that. The main story that he was telling people 121 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:11,680 was that he gave the kids to two women and a man in his 60s. He gave them to them to live on a farm 122 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:20,320 in Ohio. And these people were in a group called the Underground Sanctuary. They supposedly kept kids 123 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:26,720 safe. He from an interview had told the boys that they were going to get the farm boots that they'd 124 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:32,240 been asking for. They were going to be able to ride a tractor. I'm just making up so much stuff. 125 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,000 One of the stories that he had told Tanya was that he killed them and put them in a dumpster. 126 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:45,440 I don't know if that was supposed to be for a shock value for her. I don't know. I also heard 127 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:53,680 he claimed he gave them to an Amish woman named, what was her name? Joanna, something, Joanna. 128 00:14:53,680 --> 00:15:00,000 I can't remember the last name, but anyways, he claimed he gave them to some woman. I don't know if 129 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,160 that was supposed to be the same woman as the other woman and the two men. I don't know if 130 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:14,800 those people were Amish or if Joanna was Amish. I couldn't figure out even with all the research I 131 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:21,840 did. I think it's because he had told so many stories. So that makes sense why we can't figure that out. 132 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Now something that isn't what we're focusing on, but we wouldn't be true to the story and to our 133 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:37,840 podcast if we don't talk about Tanya. What John said was his reasoning and he still does say this 134 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:46,320 to this day that he wanted to get the kids away from their mom because he claimed she was abusive. 135 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:56,480 He said that they were "sexing" with their mom. At least the older boy Andrew said that 136 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:04,160 allegedly. None of this was ever proven. John never came to court with any sort of proof or 137 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:12,480 anything. So that part of the story is just basically something that John was saying. I think 138 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:22,160 the reason that he was saying that and came up with that is because when Tanya was 32, she was charged 139 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:30,800 with fourth degree criminal misconduct. This was in the late 90s. She had some kind of either 140 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:38,000 relationship or at least a sexual relationship of some kind or raped. I really don't know. I couldn't 141 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:45,680 find the court records. So again this is just going off of online research. I did read that this went 142 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:53,840 on for one to two years and this kid who was 14 was working at a rental property in Morenci that 143 00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:02,160 she and her ex owned and that's how she met this kid. I don't want to focus on that but we can't 144 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:09,280 leave it out of the story. She is a registered sex offender and I really wish that we could have 145 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,480 had her on and given her the opportunity to speak to this part of the story more than anything 146 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:26,880 because people probably wonder about that situation. Again, John never proved anything. He never 147 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:34,640 showed any facts. He just used that as an excuse to basically do what he did. Those are some of the 148 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:40,960 claims. I don't know that those are all of the claims of where he says he took the boys or what 149 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:48,960 he did with them. Yeah. And then there's the Tanya part of it. We have some facts that we can go over 150 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:55,120 to but again I don't want to focus on her so we can move on from that. That's part of the story. 151 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:03,520 It needed to be brought up because he brought it up but ultimately we know she did not harm these 152 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:11,680 children. We know who did. I wish he would admit that he did. I don't know but let's go ahead and 153 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:21,040 jump into some facts. Strap, ropes and nooses were all found in John's home. He had online searches for 154 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:29,760 poisoning and other ways to kill how to break a neck. He also had the noose that was found inside 155 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,640 of his van. We both know that he probably would have went back and said, oh well that was for me. 156 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:43,200 Yeah. That's an easily. I mean but wait. Okay. I just said that. Could that have been the reason why 157 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:52,080 that's what he used when he went to the emergency room because if you look in his van, oh well look 158 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,080 he did. I don't know. I'm just looking. You know what I'm saying? Thinking of it that way. 159 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:04,240 Well it did seem premeditated because he was doing the whole I'm going to take the kids to Florida. 160 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:11,200 It did seem premeditated so it wouldn't surprise me if the plot included the quote-unquote 161 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:17,840 suicide attempt and those ropes, nooses and all of that. Oh yeah because you could be like, well this 162 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,240 poor guy, go look in his vehicle. He said they're out there. Oh well bless. We need to get him 163 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:29,840 in some help. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. John left a suicide note before destroying the house because he 164 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:36,400 didn't want Tanya to have anything in their divorce. While they were actually she was moving out 165 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:44,720 she went in and had chose to take a stand of some sort and he was like, eh no that's not yours. 166 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:50,640 She was like, yes it is. You bought it for me as a housewarming present. He was like, nope I bought it. 167 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:57,280 Well she brings it back because he's having such a big argument about there's no there's no reason 168 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:03,920 in fighting over something that silly. What does she find destroyed in the house? Right there. It's done. 169 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:10,720 So that right there tells you that he could have cared less about anything that was in that home. 170 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:18,640 I saw pictures. There was nothing left inside of that house every piece of furniture like 171 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:26,960 when you say destroyed it was bad. It was completely like forget everything that we shared. I don't 172 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,960 want you having anything from our past. Everything in this home I'm destroying it and I'm destroying 173 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:40,880 our children. Everything that they had together it's gone. Just memories now. It's really crazy. 174 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:48,000 John is serving a 15 year sentence for three counts of unlawful imprisonment that he pled no 175 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:59,120 contest to. He gets out a November of 2025. Yeah I yeah. Now he's had his parole denied previously in 2020, 176 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:07,920 2022 and 2023 because why they deemed him to still be a threat to society but 177 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:14,080 after November they don't have a choice. They can't keep him in there any longer because he served 178 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:23,120 his time. March 5th 2025 the boys were declared dead but the judge said there was not enough evidence 179 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:31,040 to say he murdered him. I still don't understand everything is pointing to there was no other custody 180 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:38,960 of these boys but John. Some believe the death decoration would help bring murder charges on John. 181 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:46,240 I guess that was just in March we're in April now so we're going to have to wait and see if it 182 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:52,480 is going to help. I think that that is one step closer to what needs to be done. Yeah everyone 183 00:21:52,480 --> 00:22:01,280 stay out of Morenci after November. Scary. No mother or would I guess really it doesn't matter for 184 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,320 John. We're not going to put John into this. No mother would want to go to court and petition for 185 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:12,880 her children to be declared dead but it was just it's something that has to be done for that next step 186 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:21,200 and then also she did mention like headstones and a burial spot she can do that stuff now even 187 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:28,480 though she doesn't have their little bodies she can have a place to go to to memorialize them 188 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:36,960 which I'm sure helps with closure too. Yeah good thoughts prayers positive vibes whatever you 189 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:44,640 have and whatever you give out sent that they are found and could be brought home. Right and that's 190 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,960 again partly why we want to cover these stories. It was a long time ago but this case is still 191 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:59,280 ongoing. This guy is up to get out of jail this year so it's still ongoing. Yes and I mean just think 192 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:06,320 about it was you in any of those areas during that time maybe was you vacationing what were the 193 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:14,880 areas again I'm looking for exact Holiday City Ohio or Morenci and that would be around November 194 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:23,760 24th around that area 2010. Did you see anything you can even go further into this case because we're 195 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:31,600 just doing a short one now and if you were in see who the contact or maybe find out did I really 196 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:38,640 and the fact that he was out at 4 a.m. number one probably knew a lot of people wouldn't be out then 197 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:46,400 which sucks but also is adding to my whole your sketchy AF why are you out at 4 a.m. 198 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:54,400 Only time I'm ever out at 4 a.m. is if I'm traveling somewhere that I need to be at a 199 00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,480 ridiculously early amount of time you know which didn't apply because he drove right back home. 200 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:07,360 Right you had no reason you weren't going to work you were heading somewhere for vacation 201 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:14,160 what yeah you weren't going to get donuts to share with your children that morning no 202 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:23,440 oh no also so a couple of thoughts as we're speaking just talking this through I don't understand 203 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:30,880 how since now if they're declared dead how you can't use that internet search of how to break 204 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:38,720 necks how is that not proof of murder I don't understand I mean I know there's nobody but how to 205 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,400 break necks in your internet search and then you have ropes and belts and nooses and things like that 206 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:52,000 I don't understand Amy and I have talked about recently wanting to also cover cases where 207 00:24:52,960 --> 00:25:03,280 people kids have been killed where cps was called or whatever and no one intervened this feels the same 208 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:12,240 how are we going to let this guy out when the last five years he's been deemed not fit to be out 209 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:19,600 in public but we're just going to send him out and something bad is going to happen and we all know 210 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:26,880 that he'll do what he has to do and then dip exactly he doesn't have a problem with that especially 211 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:33,280 from my past with my family I just feel so strongly that this person should not be out 212 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:41,280 living around my family lives I don't know 45 minutes away from her and say or something like that 213 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:47,040 I don't want this guy out and I don't understand why some of these things don't come into play and 214 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,000 maybe they will I mean this just happened in March maybe they're planning on bringing murder 215 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,040 chargers I don't know it hasn't happened yet but maybe that's in the works yeah because we're still 216 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:05,280 fresh on it it's still pretty fresh so who knows we still have several months until November I 217 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:12,400 definitely do want to keep watch on this though you may never I don't even want to say this you 218 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:19,280 may never find them I don't know what he done with them why can't you be a man enough to admit you 219 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:27,680 did it he never will he's probably a narcissistic POS but one of the other things that I think should 220 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:36,240 come into play and bringing murder chargers is that none of these stories that he told panned out they 221 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:42,720 didn't find that Joanna woman, they didn't find these underground people what were they called 222 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:51,680 underground sanctuary people, none of this stuff was proven those were all lies and then also Tanya 223 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:59,440 did make clear in her statement while she was doing the hearing to actually declare the children 224 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:06,880 dead that all of the boys they were very clear in their teachings who is your mommy who is your daddy 225 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:13,200 what are their numbers where do you live so they were able especially the older one that was 226 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:22,000 nine to tell you who their parents are what their numbers were and they knew something wasn't right 227 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:28,640 so they would have been smart enough if not by their self with the three of them she said they would 228 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:34,640 have got together because they worked well together and thought of a way to let it be known that 229 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:42,720 something's not right somehow some way these kids are now all three of them in their 20s the oldest 230 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:50,160 one Andrew would be in his mid 20s right there's no way that they wouldn't have come forward by now 231 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:56,720 because of what you just said they know who their mom is they know where they live and I get if 232 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:03,440 someone is held for this many years maybe they would forget some of that information 233 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:11,040 there's enough out there they would have at least I would think and listen I'm not a psychologist 234 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,560 I don't know I would think they would have at least remembered their last name or something between 235 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:22,000 the three of them maybe no maybe not that now if it was just the little five year old and he had been 236 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:31,600 taken to the soul sanctuary you probably could have talked around him and got his little memories out 237 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,960 and he might not have remembered anything that happened before he was four I mean before he was five 238 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:43,440 except little bits and pieces that didn't make any sense but you have the other two brothers so 239 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,200 I agree with you and I agree with the mother they would have figured it out I just feel like they 240 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:57,680 would have been found by now yeah me too and then you have three children who do not have birth certificates, 241 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:06,000 they do not have social security cards ranging from the age nine to five what there would be a lot of 242 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:14,160 questions right they would come up in some system yes and if you were hiding them for their safety 243 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:21,120 you would have had to change their names I don't believe it by the time that he was arrested 244 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:29,200 and judging by the things that he had done like destroy the house all the lying he does not seem 245 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:35,040 like an individual that would have been able to get his three children brand new identities and 246 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:44,160 find this underground sanctuary and everything to be peachy like he saying it was I think maybe 247 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:51,360 I don't know maybe maybe he believes now after all these years that that's what happened but it's not 248 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:57,280 and according to his neighbors he wasn't even physically caring for himself so if you're incapable 249 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,800 of even taking care of yourself and bathing or whatever the case might have been how are you doing 250 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:10,320 all of this I don't know I'm not a specialist I'm not anybody special at all but I'm still calling dope 251 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:19,520 I think he got out there on some kind of substance and just got out there you know it's what it look 252 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:25,760 like to me it's possible only because and I didn't hear anything about that that wasn't in anything 253 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:34,160 I watched or read or anything but just look like it the behavior too yes declining yes and what 254 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:42,560 it have been possible for him to have been indulging in extracurricular activities with other 255 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:49,280 substances that are illegal and Tanya not realize during their marriage yeah it could have been 256 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:56,880 okay she may have not had a clue and maybe he just got to the edge of his addiction when all this 257 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:04,240 started happening because we all know that some drugs will make you hallucinate think things are 258 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:12,560 happening when they're not happening maybe that's where he dreamed up those allegations in his head 259 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:20,320 about her sexually abusing their children yeah you know I wish that there had been something 260 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,680 that and maybe you heard it I didn't hear it and anything that I watched we watched different 261 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,760 things which I kind of liked I did watch the one that you watched the court TV though okay yeah I did 262 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:39,680 watch that I didn't hear them say did Tanya at any point say was he a loving husband was he an 263 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:47,520 abuse of husband was he a narcissistic person I want to know what he was like before this happened 264 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:55,200 maybe he's just an evil person from what I gathered in her testimony it did kind of little bit come 265 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:01,600 up and she said that they had a normal marriage they had their disagreements here and there just like 266 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,440 any other couple and before all this happened she thought their marriage was good okay so more 267 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,880 like you said maybe a substance abuse or a mental health break or something like that then if 268 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:18,480 that's not the case okay and I do want to correct that because it could have been substance abuse and 269 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:26,080 as you said it could have been some kind of mental illness uh yeah combo something was going on there 270 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,640 you could look at the guy and tell that he's not someone that you would want to walk down a dark 271 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:37,040 alley and walk up to and him have a question for you the way he looked in the court I mean I'm 272 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:44,240 going to go ahead and say it oh I agree yeah yeah and I feel like in a lot of these cases there's an 273 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:51,760 already pre-existing mental health issue and then when you mix in substances it's game over bingo 274 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:58,720 I mean how could it not be because they're mind altering and you already have things in your 275 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,640 mind that you need help with and they're just not correct yeah and again these are just our theories 276 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:13,120 we didn't read this anywhere we don't know we're just speculating but I will say that in the court 277 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:20,880 TV doc everyone that they interviewed like FBI police detective whoever they all think he murdered 278 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:29,440 the boys yeah I mean everybody everybody and even the judge that has to let him free I'm sure 279 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:36,480 he's like oh you little S.O.B. I know what you did you know yeah I'm just gonna say it son of a 280 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:45,920 bitch yeah everybody knows terrible person you suck should not be out no you suck I don't even need to 281 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:53,600 ask but I'll just put it out there just so what's your opinion on mom dad what happened to the boys 282 00:33:53,600 --> 00:34:02,720 I already know but I think that yeah they may have had a fine marriage but I'm gonna think that 283 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:11,120 there's probably some difficulties that need to be overcome on both sides I watched her entire 284 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:18,000 hour testimony yeah it was pretty much like an interview though because that's all I watched 285 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:28,080 which is her part but I didn't feel like she just was off I would really have liked to have had 286 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:34,640 her on here to speak with her and just kind of gauged and spoke with her you know maybe one day maybe 287 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:40,400 she'll see my message in a couple of months yeah because I'm gonna go ahead and the more we have 288 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,520 been talking about this case this is what I'm gonna say I feel after watching that and then having 289 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:54,080 the time to reflect while we're talking I really guess that I cannot judge how her actions are 290 00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:01,200 or what have you because I'm not in her shoes everybody grieves different one day she had three 291 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:08,720 live loving little boys and the next day she didn't so all I'm gonna say is I would have just 292 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:15,120 really have liked to have the pleasure to meet her him I wouldn't grace him the chance to be on 293 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:24,800 our podcast no I don't give voices to murderers, no I give voices to victims and you obviously 294 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,560 well I shouldn't put words in your mouth what do you think happened to them 295 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:37,840 I think something went down in that house I don't I'm still gonna stick with my substance abuse 296 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:44,960 and mental illness something probably went down that morning you know how kids are maybe one 297 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:53,440 spilt something did something set dad over the rage and end I'm gonna say even if it wasn't that 298 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,240 something put him over the edge and he started tearing up the house I think that he probably 299 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:08,000 during or after or before killed his children then he put them in his truck he took that drive 300 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,440 he disposed of them obviously very well and then he drove home 301 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:23,200 had to go the hospital because heard his leg for his ankle while he was disposing of his children 302 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,640 and he's obviously not a very good lawyer but I think everything probably went down in that home 303 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,840 I mean and it might have now that I'm even thinking about it even more how do we not know that 304 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:39,680 that was all 10 you're driven I'm gonna destroy everything that we had everything that you love 305 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,080 if you don't want to be with me I don't know what was going through his head but those things make 306 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:50,320 sense you destroyed her home you destroyed all of your memories and you destroyed the children 307 00:36:50,320 --> 00:37:00,240 that the two of you made on that I feel like it was more or all if I can't have you no one can 308 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:08,720 you can't have anything including the kids that you love so I'm gonna take it all and I go back 309 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:17,200 to the Facebook post I love my wife forgive me seems like a confession to me I agree with everything 310 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:24,240 you just said the only thing that I maybe think is a little different I think he destroyed the house 311 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:31,920 but he took the kids alive in the car oh okay to holiday city and the only reason I think that 312 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:38,080 and then he did it there and disposed of them the only reason I think that is because 313 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,880 I would assume that they checked his car for evidence it wouldn't there be some I mean I don't 314 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:52,800 it depends on how he did it true because the non-killer in me would think that three 315 00:37:52,800 --> 00:38:00,080 bodies would make a big mess unless his search and he literally broke their necks there probably 316 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:06,480 wouldn't be no you're right you could have just could just pile them up in the back of the truck if you have a 317 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:16,080 yeah so that's the question I think is was it in Morenci or was it in Holiday City and that's it those are 318 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:22,880 the only two questions to ask here right because we still do not know the manner of their death because 319 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,560 there's no bodies no and even if they found them at this point I don't think we'd even know there's 320 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:37,520 too much decomposition unless maybe maybe where they are they've stayed in that same vicinity this 321 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:43,520 whole time and you still have the bones then you could tell but yeah you're probably right depends 322 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:49,440 again on the manner right and where they put put them I mean yeah was it to our animals could 323 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:57,440 that's awful to think about these babies I know but it's a possibility I know yeah sucks 324 00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:05,200 so I think we're basically on the same page here just I feel more strongly about the Holiday City thing 325 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:12,080 and you feel more strongly about the house and marancy I have a friend that I am going to screen shot 326 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,920 holiday city she's a medium I'm gonna send it to her and just see if she gets any vibes or feels 327 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,160 anything off of the I'm gonna send her like one of those google map satellite pictures and just see 328 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:31,360 if she feels anything and I'll let you know I don't know if we're still running the way that we're 329 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:37,520 in yes you definitely let me know but if we're still running the way we're thinking and he wants to 330 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:43,040 take everything away wouldn't it have been symbolic to have done it in the home well plus he was 331 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:48,720 clearly in a rage so I mean it just makes you wonder I just hate this why should you ever have to 332 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:57,520 wonder this about three babies yeah sweet little babies either scenario even if he drove to Holiday 333 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,960 City it was only it was less than 30 miles he could have still been in a rage that whole drive you 334 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:10,480 know what I mean I definitely feel like we're on the right track and it's either your scenario or 335 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:15,360 it's my scenario and that's it there's and we're not disagree and we're just saying we're just 336 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:23,360 working together I don't know but this is all I have to say John just be honest I cannot imagine being 337 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:31,040 in Tania's situation and not know what happened to my three babies and for 14 years 338 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:38,640 doing like me and Dawn are doing right now just speculate in and guessing what happened I mean 339 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:46,400 that's the least you can do well and just imagine holding that much hate for this many years 340 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:54,080 for one woman yeah kind of crazy you're petty yeah you're petty dude and shouldn't be out 341 00:40:54,080 --> 00:41:01,600 no if you could do all of that let's pretend the children are love they've got careers that they 342 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,560 love and the oldest ones getting right have kids okay it's everything's great it's petty that you 343 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:13,440 tore that house up it's petty that you had her bring something that she wanted from that home 344 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:19,040 that you bought her back to the house after she took it out it's petty I don't expect you to tell 345 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:28,160 the truth never no you're petty yeah anyone who might have been in that area in 2010 if you know 346 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:37,680 anything here's their story we're talking about Andrew who was nine Alexander who was seven and Tanner 347 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:45,200 who was five three innocent little boys that we believe were killed and pretty much everybody else 348 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:52,080 believes yeah because you can't bring where they are now and you can't bring us anybody that did 349 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:56,320 harm them obviously there's nothing to rate here this is just a story that we wanted to highlight 350 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:02,480 next week actually I'm not sure what's next week so I guess you'll all just have to meet back here 351 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:10,400 in a week and find out we'll find out together yes all right thanks everyone and we'll talk in a week 352 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,680 bye. bye. 353 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:23,520 thanks for making it to the end and hanging out with us keep on the lookout for our next episode and 354 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:24,520 stay gruesome. 355 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,520 [Music]