The marriage of data and intuition. You think about data as objective truth. Absolutely, coaches need to use their intuition to go through. Absolutely. How they validate that gut thing is through objectivity, is through data. One does not work without the other. Humans grow away from narcissism. And what happens is when people get these barriers and blocks in their life, either personally, professionally. In our case, coaches professionally. Well, how do we facilitate removing those blocks? You've got control over four things. What you say, we think, we do and what you feel like. Finding a leading edge is is is operating just past that boundary of being uncomfortable. There is no funny I can feel that. The language I use to myself and the language I communicate to my team, to my management team.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coach and Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing, I've been loving this style of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is John Dams. John is a performance strategist for Kitman Labs and developmental coach, helping people find their leading edge. Prior to this, he was in professional sport, head of athletic performance with the Waratars, head of performance for Harlequins of the UK, and with Lester Tigers. Now I've been chatting to John weekly about performance and his insight around leadership and how to break down and unlock your potential is awesome. John Dams, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast. Thanks, Ben. Happy to be here. Happy to spend some time and heartbeats with you. Oh, time and heartbeats. How good is that statement? Love them, mate. Now we're we're talking today, man, around not only culture, but also the performance. Tell us a little bit about how you got into and into this industry in the first place.
Where'd you start?
SPEAKER_01So I was a I was a I guess back in the day, between the late 90s and early 2000s, always the other year old fitness trainer. I wasn't a strength coach, I wasn't a strength position coach, I was a fitness trainer. Yeah. You know, like the the the rules were different back then. We're talking 1999, 1998. And my first job was with the Otago Sevenston under a coach named Murray Rolfson Roll. I do remember Rolly. And I remember him, you know, just fresh out of university saying, look, ask you give me a job or something. Yeah, of course. Cool, great. What are you gonna pay me? He's like, nothing. Right, okay, just prove your worth. Um, we'll give you some experience. Great. The cool thing about it, I ended up working to that team, um, training, training then and playing and training at the same time. I actually ended up representing that team at the National Stephen's whilst doing a job as a trainer. Mate, so you would have been taking shortcuts all over the show. You were saying, right, boys, get on the line and you would have just been there with the No, but it was uh it was a it was a great uh great lesson in terms of like developing relationships for people you work with. Um if you're doing the work, you have a different relationship. You understand what's going on
at the back end, what it takes to put a team together. If you're there doing the work. Yeah, and like the even on the on the on the from the management side. And this I found this as I moved to my next role. Like I moved from Dedeen to Wellington to get into professional sport. And the head coach of them was the villain and Chris Board. They were called the Rats. And scrape and fight for anything. Right, resources, jerseys, gear, food. And I was brought as a fitness trainer slash assistant manager. Probably one of the best things they did because what it allowed me to do is get to understand all the different roles within school. Yeah. So who's putting the kit away? Who's washing the kit? Who's to be on time? Who's getting all the gear to the airport? Who's getting keys to the players for their their rooms, you know? So I was assistant manager fitness trainer. And with a job, I wanted a full-time job with a Wanger Rugby. And those jobs covered it. You know, there's five super franchises and you were lying to the time. Yeah. And so five jobs. And like the strength and conditioning industry wasn't really an industry those days. You had a few key people and jobs who had specialized at university, but there wasn't a real pathway to do that. She had to find her own pathway.
SPEAKER_00Because that's because professional rugby hadn't been around particularly either.
SPEAKER_01So it hadn't been around long. I've been around three or four years. So, and this was probably in the 2000s, I'd been around four years. So the roles uh uh in performance was maturing at the same time. So the the guy who's in charge of the hurricanes at the time was kind of brain low with the all boats and into sailing and did some amazing things, and he's working in kind of corporate performance at the moment. But what that allowed me to do is get into the the I guess the the academy side. I came on as an academy fitness coach or academy strength conditioning coach, and I was lucky enough to work some red talent there. Like looking back, it was Jimmy Gott with Tangy Ellison, Mir Tillado, or those guys coming through. And again, you're I was young, and the relationships I formed were really important. And I was lucky enough to get an opportunity coming out of Europe, and I was kind of single at the time, I was married, and it was the right job offers here. Let's go, let's move. I had a job off from West Tigers as a as a assistant strength coach. Um and it was like, right, when can you move? I'm like, when do you want me? A couple of weeks. Move my life from New Zealand to the UK, like that. And what I did is I walked into a team. If you remember 2003, England won the World Cup. And a large portion of that team were from Leicester.
SPEAKER_00That's an interesting environment to begin into, right? Right. And very different from the Southern Hemisphere.
SPEAKER_01Very different. Crazy story. He's talking about culture and like the culture of that place, and you've been there, you've been part of it. It's so strong. It's so ingrained in how you train, how you turn up, what you do. And coming from New Zealand, it's very, very different to the way we operate and what we did. So it's a massive learning curve. No, it was very young, it was 20, 20, 26, 27. I walked into a change in room of mine once and kneeled back and threw a smoothie. Um, Julian White, all these guys are now coaches and legends in their own right.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it funny? Because when you come as a player, you uh you you find that transition hard. But that's even harder, right? To then be instructing people how to stay fit and stay strong when they've been doing it for 25 years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like the the the the the way they prepped,
the way they trained, the way they did things was very, very different. What was the difference? Well, I'll give an example. Like, let's talk about your role as a fitness trainer coach on a game day as you make sure that the players on the side of the pitch, the bench is ready to go on. Right. And typically you'd be warming up, playing ball stores, doing games, you know, getting them getting them sharp ready to go on the field. I remember one of my first warm-ups on the sideline at Leicester. I I there was rules around which end you had to go to. And I was like, right, always get a ball, let's play a bit of two on two, two and three touch. And Graham Roundshore was a legend of the game. Still is a legend.
SPEAKER_00Yep, he is.
SPEAKER_01You turned around and turned around and went, literally looked at me and went, touch. Touch. I'm like, I was like, uh, okay, let's just do some running in a stretch. And like the thought of using a ball in a warm-up was just like so foreign at that time. But you know, that was just a kind of their mindset was we're ahead of blood break beef, we're gonna warm-up with focus on the day. I didn't know what's going on. So the focus is very, very different, right? So from that, like I was a strength coach. I I just charge a rehab. So I I'd kind of gone from a finish trainer to a strength coach, and I was working with the players to return into injury. So I learned the skills around, you know, that that one-on-one dealing with players at a really kind of traumatic time in the career, which is people that have picked up long-term injuries. So I remember Lewis, Lewis Mooney coming off um a foot injury from the World Cup, and he was out for a long period of time, and like desperate to get back playing. And those those relationships you build in those moments become really important. But I also left like the guy who brought me over there, and I still got so much time from uh as a person um in in terms of um uh what he did to help me was Derek Rickhoff, the guy who brought me over. Oh yeah, short nose McGrue. No, too. We went to bath, didn't he? Yeah, uh no, that was no, he didn't. No, you probably didn't Danny. Some thing about Danny. Gary may have left before we got the Gree. His delivery and how we how he coached was very, very different to what I was used to. It was, I say you do. Yeah. I'm the boss, you do this, you listen, I I say you do. And that's not how I coached. But they responded. They responded in a certain way. All right. And again, you what you're doing is you're I was learning a different way to coach, different way to adapt. And, you know, you're in an environment where you've come from New Zealand where there's where you're you're one person, you're leading yourself in this environment where all of a sudden there's two or three different strength coaches, you're dealing with different people. And probably a year later, the club employed a guy named Craig White, who had a huge amount of success and experience with wasps in Ireland. Did he think but not to do something with Wales? He's an amazing coach. What he did, he brought in an environment where he created the shared meaning and understanding as a coach. And this comes from someone who, you know, if you're in a role in New Zealand, you're protecting that job. If there weren't many of them, right? I'm here, you're a bit of an island, a little bit. Right, because people wanted your job because there weren't many of them. And step into a space where someone was really comfortable in terms of how they approached it, what they did, and he created this team around them.
SPEAKER_00You mean team around the fitness?
SPEAKER_01The fitness teams, yeah. Like, so from the academy coaches, the assistant coaches, the rehab coaches, to to him as like the the head of performance head of Shunny Commission team, creating an understanding, well, this is this is how we're going to prepare this team. I remember thinking, this is very different, but I like it. Because what he did, he listened.
SPEAKER_02John, what do you think? Oh, I think this. Okay, that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01So what I've what I've really learned is a really key part of being a strong leader is listening. Having an understanding of what you want.
I mean, ultimately it's his his job, his role, right? But like when someone listens to you, really understands, it goes a long way to like felt being heard. I was like, right, I'm in. What do you want, boss? I'm in. You know, and I took that away from how I showed my teams after that.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. So his he he left a last lasting impact on you as a massive as a young young.
SPEAKER_01I remember it vividly. Took us all out onto Oval Park. If you've ever been to Oval Park, didn't it wasn't sunny very often. And took us out on into Oval Park. We sat down on the grass and we talked about, okay, this is how we're gonna this is what we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it funny when you when you think about like like invisible skills which great ski coaches have? And the ability to listen is almost uh the epitome of an invisible skill, right? Because you it you don't hear anything about it, it's just yeah. So well like that that's such a cool trait, isn't it? Would you say it's right up there with one of the most important traits of a leader? Yeah, I I I I absolutely do.
SPEAKER_01And the more I've kind of grown the space, it's part of like it forms empathy, which is a huge part of like emotional intelligence and what you what you learn to listen and take the perspective of the other person. Right. Empathy becomes such an important piece as a coach, right? Truly listen to someone, okay, man, I'll feel you. Know where you're coming from. And as someone who's been on the other other side of that, it's such an empowerful piece. I mean, when you talk about emotional intelligence of a coach, I think that's such an important piece about being a a strong leader, is having a little high level of emotional intelligence and stars with but able to take the the perspective of the of the person you're talking to. And key skill is listening. Yeah, the what what what's the definition of emotional intelligence? What does that look like? Emotional intelligence. Understanding yourself. How do you do you? Where what are your beliefs? What are your values? What are your what are you what do you what do you hold on to? As soon as you understand that, you can start start to realize, well, I maybe I do things differently than other people. Okay, well maybe they do something different. Okay, well, then there's empathy. How can I s how can I stand in your shoes and understand what you're going through? And empathy sometimes for coaches, if it's not intentional, it can be very natural because the people we interact with have the same beliefs and same values. It's when you come up with a group and you don't share the same beliefs and values, where you might go, oh, this group's different. And where empathy becomes really important, listing becomes really important. I'll give you a couple of examples. Yeah. Before I started my journey through self-development into a developmental coach in the UK and in Australia, I struggled with a couple of people within the organization
I was working with. I didn't understand them. I didn't understand why they're behaving the way they were, which was wasn't wasn't n normal to the rest of the group. The rest of the group are pretty good. And I'm like, I don't I don't get that guy. I found myself getting frustrated. I didn't step into this shoes. Well, if you had, what what do you reckon you would have seen? I would have said what I've seen and then I've reflected on this a lot. Right. If I had the skills I had then or now then, I would have responded differently. I would have asked different questions, I would have listened to it. Inquired, inquired into his behavior. Same here. Same in Australia. Where the culture from the UK to Australia is completely different. The way they work, the way they approach a game, a lot of it is around finding joy and meaning and the what they do data back.
SPEAKER_00Do you do do you think it's not just the game but also wider life too? Yeah. Different cultures just value different ways of doing things, right? They do.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So the cultures are different and they're joined by the like shared meaning of the game, right? That's why typically players moving to like from Australia to the UK or UK to Australia find shared understanding because it's a game, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a connector, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the shared understanding of we had a player, okay? But like once I understood that, once I really got like to understand myself, it was like an aha moment. I'm like, shit, y'all.
SPEAKER_00What was the reason for it? Like, was there a was there actually aha moment where you just went bang? I need to start looking at myself a bit better.
SPEAKER_01We're getting into like the fundamentals of like mental skills and coaching, which has been a huge part of my growth in the past 10 years, but it was what are the things that you can control as a human, as a coach, right? And once I kind of understood that, I'm like, well, I can't control what this person thinks, does, feels, says. I can inquire into, I can seek to understand where it's coming from. I can't control that. The four things that you can control, this has stayed with me for a long time. You got you've got control over four things. What you say, what you think, what you do, and what you feel. Are your four things that you can control as a human?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Say, think, do, feel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I can I can't control where we feel. But what I can do is seek to understand why you're feeling that way and have empathy for that. So how that would have showed up and and how I delivered how I coached is different.
SPEAKER_00So are those things the things that you you you can't control those things of others, but you can control them in yourself.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So so make me hate you.
Make me s make me say something. You can't do that. You can lift it. You can potentially influence the way someone feels. You can influence the way someone acts, potentially.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You can't control that. Once you understand that, it's such a powerful influence over anyone else.
SPEAKER_00You can influence, but you can't control. You can potentially influence. If you can't, let it go. Yeah. How how do you how when do you let that go? That say you you've got that person in your workspace that frustrates you. You want to influence them to change or you want to tell them to change it.
SPEAKER_01The frustration is the belief that you can. Right. My frustration is always being, why I need to change the way this person's behaving. I need to, you know, I can't do that. The more you realize, okay, what can I do? Could I influence them away? Right. What it can do is change the way I I respond to that. The way I feel about that. That's my responsibility. How I turn back every day.
SPEAKER_00So you've got someone in your environment that's say, let's take a rugby context where you've got a player that's just can't be asked doing the gym, right? And it's just taking us out and bringing others down. What what what are you suggesting? It's to get to the bottom of that, or Yeah. Well, what's the understanding?
SPEAKER_01What's inquire into why that may be the case? He may he he may not see the benefit of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And your job is to just to get a showcase that, but to understand, first of all, seek to understand. Stick into their shoes, ask them questions, listen, listen to what he has to say.
SPEAKER_00Seek to understand first. That's a that's the guiding principle of this kind of underlying empathy, isn't it? Because if you understand what someone's background or the rationale behind stuff, that's when it explodes, right?
SPEAKER_01And there's there's the growth too, is about understanding others. Like how do people do how how do people do them? How do you do you? You know you do yourself. That's the first step. Not always. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. And that's what self-development and self-growth is about. Like the more you understand, and that's what coaching is about. The skills learned in coaching is understanding how people do themselves. How does it how does it play out through the language they use, the behavior they execute? Understanding how people do themselves. Yeah, like I like the way listening to what peop the words people use, words are important. The words you use are words, words, it tells a little bit about how people might potentially think and feel them.
SPEAKER_00Huh. What sort of words do you would you give as an example around that sort of stuff?
SPEAKER_01For for example, this is a really basic example to use to demonstrate this point a lot, but when you talk about big picture thinking, you talk about detail. When people use words like like big picture, or you know, you can't see the wood for the trees. Or, you know, they are dealing in that they're talking in a certain way, which potentially say they see the world in a certain way. And the more you understand that, the more you can understand how this person is doing what you what you do is
you can then match and understand and talk the same language. And all of a sudden you have rapport.
SPEAKER_00You have communication, line communication is so you're matching the the talking style and then mirroring it back to them. Yeah, so what we're talking about is the fundamentals of rapport. So how do you build rapport?
SPEAKER_01Fundamentals of rapport. Yeah, like what are they what are the key aspects of building a relationship?
SPEAKER_00What are those? What are some?
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, like you can match behavior, you can match language. So what you're looking for is a shared understanding of values. If I'm talking and behaving and postures different, there's typically no rapport there. And the fundamentals of coaching, developmental coaching is the number one, the priority first is building rapport. Without rapport, there's no flow of communication. And how you do that is you is just through framing, communicating how you're going to communicate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Imagine language, asking questions, listening, actively listening.
SPEAKER_01And these are skills.
SPEAKER_00They are.
SPEAKER_01The skills, the skills which some people have, some people don't. And what and what I guess the growth I've had the last probably four or five years now is is to teach people those skills. How have you learned that to teach it yourself? First of all, was like the fundamentals of developmental coaching is this this base in our NLP, which is neuro linguistic programming, which helps facilitate how you ask questions, how people think, how people feel. Um and then talks about as a developmental coach, humans grow up, wake up at different speeds and different levels. Essentially, people humans grow away from narcissism. And what happens is when people get these barriers and blocks in their life, either personally, professionally, and in our case coaches professionally. Well, how do we facilitate removing those blocks?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The the the blockers to being successful. So the the so our jobs as coaches isn't to give advice. It's to facilitate 'cause every person has the answers to their to their own success. You know all the answers. All we do is a as a developmental coach is shine a light and facilitate you finding those answers. We don't tell you. That's the skill listening, reflecting, feeding back. So what we're finding is I guess young coaches, if you want to facilitate change in your athletes, you need the skills to be able to do that. And we believe that's the gap. Some are some are, but like at the highest level. Like the but the ability to listen, understand what's coming through, like facilitate true change in young athletes can be a skill. Typically these are done by sports ecologists.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that's a the shift that coaches need to make going forward? Or that's the way modern coaching needs to evolve to? Well, who's the most important person?
SPEAKER_01Who's the most influential person of that? Yeah, coach. Head coach. Yeah. So head coach, assistant coach, or head of that that department needs to have the skills to facilitate that. This is what this is what the work we're doing now is is getting towards.
SPEAKER_00It's helping head coaches develop these skills to actually better influence the people they're leading.
SPEAKER_01Anyone who's working in high performance, who is working with ambitious young men, giving them the skills to facilitate true change. Like giving them the skill, the meant giving them the meant the skills to develop, you know, develop giving them the mental skills to develop the the athletes they're working with, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Giving coaches the skills to develop true change in their players. Yeah. Well, some
do it inherently.
SPEAKER_01You think about some some are good listeners, and we meant we talked about this before, like teachers, becoming good coaches for some time. Teachers can listen to dealt with and know how to communicate. Language becomes so important. The language you use, how you frame an idea, the language you use in that moment. What are you doing? How are you preparing that? How are you building rapport? How are you developing meaning? Why is meaning important? All these things which aren't part of a coach curriculum sometimes. Coaches come out of being players. They learn from what they've learned, what we believe is an absolute mesh. As someone who's been part of that growth, I know that it's it's huge, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Like and then I know it's probably the same in all sports, but like rugby, particularly where it's such a uh emotional sport too, right? It's not just a shooting where you just hit a target over and over again. It's it's a people business. Like there's all sorts of different people.
SPEAKER_01Highs and lows of like winning and losing week in, we can't. Like in the European game, there's 36 plus games a year. I remember, you know, been involved in a number of finals, kind of um weekends. You do the schedule one, you got to week 48 of the season. I'm like, this is a long season.
SPEAKER_00I remember those ones.
SPEAKER_01You're up and down. And like having the skills to be able to adapt to that. Like having the skills and you know we've spoken about leading edge of performance, right? What does that mean? What does that mean? Well uh it's kind of it's the growth around being uncomfortable. It's the leader finding a leading edge is is is is is operating just past that boundary of being uncomfortable psychologically. Right. Just being better. Right.
SPEAKER_00What is that what what does that sort of feeling feel like? Like being uncomfortable psychologically? Like is that stress? Um or just frustration?
SPEAKER_01It's the balance between meaning and action. Right? You need to have a strong meeting towards where you're going, and it's how you see failure. Like, how do how what's your perspective of what failure means? Like, think about it. If you have a perspective of failure, which is there is no failure, only feedback. Imagine if you imagine if that was the the mindset you had. And some coaches do that, the good ones, the great ones really do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There is no failure, only feedback. So what is this telling me? The language I use to myself or and the language I could communicate to my team, to my management team. What does that mean?
SPEAKER_00And I guess, and I guess if that's your underlying belief, there's no failure, only feedback, that that's very different, isn't it? Like the way you approach it from then on is very different to someone who's it is outcome oriented, right?
SPEAKER_01So yeah, yeah. But understanding and setting appropriate meaning, setting appropriate objectives becomes a really important piece. So what's the larger goal? What's the larger meaning? Why are we doing this? That shakes your perspective of that of failure. So as a coach, if you're not setting that that the higher meaning right, if you're not facilitating that meaning effectively, your view of failure is going to be very narrow.
SPEAKER_00No failure, only feedback. Setting that higher meaning right at the very start, too, right? So when you first, well, not even come into a team, even every season, every does it equate to every training, every game, the start of everything, the way you set the stand, the meanings.
SPEAKER_01I think like this the the shared meaning is one you can you can always talk to specifically. Why are we here? I think it's important that that's done as a group. It's not my meaning enforced on you, but Ben. It's like, okay, what do what do we want as a team? And I think as a coach, it's your job to have facilitate that.
What's going to drive these players towards what's important to them? How do they want to play? How do they want to behave? What kind of what kind of what kind of beliefs and values do they have that they want to bring into their culture? They want to enculturate their team in. Turning up on time, working hard, being respectful. These are these are shared beliefs and values which are which form your culture. It starts from why.
SPEAKER_00Does start with why, eh? Yeah, why why is that important? It was actually, I had an awesome re recollection um just when you say why I was with the Canadian ladies and one of the girls asked me, I said, All right, ladies, warm up with this drill. And the ladies said, Why? And I was like, because it's the warm-up drill. She's like, but why are we doing it? Yeah. Yeah. And I couldn't answer at the time. I was just and it turned out it was just a drill that I'd done. Yeah. And I was just wrote, you know, repeating, regurgitating stuff from the past.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you now you're talking about the meaning the meaning action paradigm.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_01Well, we've talked about it briefly around the the the theory of flow. Yes, I love the flow aspect. Yeah, where the the the two axes are meaning and action or challenge. And too much too much doing without meaning, you get you just explained it there, you get boredom and apathy. Do this task, run this thrill.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Why am I doing this? There's there is actual challenge without meaning. On the other side, it's the other way around. It's we wanna we're gonna win this championship. We're gonna win, win, win. That's the meaning. Or we're gonna train and actually develop the skills to do that. And what you get is frustration. And sometimes players out and coaches when they train is they're their frustration, their meaning is they want to win so much. Like that the way they train is more about them than the athletes sometimes. Attention. And so the flow state. So if you're the balance of meaning and action. The higher the meaning, the higher the skin set. Required. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a balance, right?
SPEAKER_00So flow works in the middle. Meaning you can't have you can't be super high in meaning without Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Think you think about a time where you've work's been effortless. Like training's been effortless. You you feel, you felt like you are either applying yourself physically, mentally, and you're in the zone, right? That is the balance of this is great work, and I've got the skills better to do that. Right. And I think it's an important, really important piece you can break into. Well, how do I frame that meaning at a micro level every day and a macro level at the start of the season? How do I find meaning daily? And that comes with how you communicate as a coach. How am I framing this session? What am I referring to?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Today, girls, it's warm up. We're doing this. This is the reason why we do this is because if we don't prepare, we break down. We break down, we can't do X. So if you frame the meaning in that meeting, is it, you know, and framing, you know, is it okay with you girls? Yep.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01All of a sudden you've got shared meaning, why it's important, and you run a training session, right? And how you frame becomes a really important skill as a as a
coach.
SPEAKER_00This is one skill which can be a game changer. Do you how often would you frame something, do you reckon? Like, do you frame everything? Do you try and put in the rationale, the meaning behind everything you're doing? Like we're changing to this drill now, this is why. Right, right. And then after that, we'll go to this one and that's why. I think that level is it too micro.
SPEAKER_01I think if if you if you have again, it's in your training structure. I think if you've got a let's say you've got a training overview and you've gone through this is the reason why we're training day, you've created enough meaning for them to have a little bit of trust in order to move from drill to drill. How you frame around asking questions around why we're doing this can be if you have any questions around why we're doing these drills, let's have them at the end. Let's keep real quick. So then you know you're not gonna have that breakdown of doing the training, right? But how you deliver that and how you communicate becomes such an important piece. The stronger that that meaning, the stronger it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_00And and what's that meaning? It's gotta be well, you can't just say the trite sort of cliche stuff, right? You've actually got to have meaning which is a massive you're into it yourself, and it's also got to be the team's into it because of whatever, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, this is the this is who for who's developed that meaning. I've seen it done really well and I've seen it done poorly. Yes. And the poorer examples are team, this is who we are. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Okay. Yep. Thank you. It was a team before us. I thought, yeah, this is how we operate. Okay.
SPEAKER_01We uh every year the group's different. Think about you as a player, how you evolved as a player.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Through you know what you thought was important. Even myself as a coach, like what I found was important, it was different as I developed, right? So being able to change and adapt, you know. Players get older, have families, meaning changes. So why are they doing this? What's important? Hmm. Sometimes it transcends just wanting.
SPEAKER_00It's fascinating, isn't it? That that the almost search for meaning, right? You've got to actually have a hunt around and try and find it, right? Yeah, yeah. Man's search for meaning. Yeah, well, that's Abraham Masler, right? Righto, mate. Well, mate, how do you how do you mate? There's performance parts which are across cultures, but w is there anything which is negative stuff which aren't across all cultures?
SPEAKER_01Like I think like things that transcend cultures are like meaning, values, belief. What I think that every team has does share, it does have a shared value system. They do, you know, typically have that. What different is how they execute that. And that's the cultural piece. Think about the different cultures and experiences you've had teams. Well, the meaning is the same. They want to win, they practice the same way, but how they go about it is completely different. That's because the makeup of the team is different. The c the way the coach chooses to lead is different.
SPEAKER_00It's fascinating. Like actually, now the uh the the the same um execution is different. Like values are pretty much pretty consistent across the board, right? Yeah. Like they are the same, but it's and the meaning's largely the same too.
SPEAKER_01But how do you think meaning identity belonging are universal? Meaning,
identity, belonging, universal. What's different with teams is the culture cultural piece. Think about the culture under Fiji and Druid compared to Togo Islanders.
SPEAKER_00And that's the execution piece, right? Like, and and as a leader and coach, you've got to be empathetic enough to understand what's here in front of you. Deal with that. And even yourself too, and about your relationship with this environment too. Yeah. Have you seen people get it wrong?
SPEAKER_02Got any examples of that? Oh, give them an example.
SPEAKER_01The culture at Lester, as I say you do. Yeah. Right. You've got to work hard, you've got to listen to me. I'm your leader. Strongly listed in Richard, it's John Morris, Patty Haley. Are these the guys who've been in the environment? We say you do Richard Cotcorn. You know how Richard is, I say you do Tony Good. Yeah, he imagined. Although he's adapted and changed and he's a he's a you know, he's a as a different type of coach than boss, right? It's taking that the same approach into a different environment. I've taken that approach to like you had a leicester and taking it to Harlequins, it wouldn't have worked. The younger kids, this the the culture wasn't established. And if you took that in the early days, you didn't it doesn't work. Right? So how you communicate what you do is a little bit different. So this so the the meaning, the identity and belonging to that environment was different. The cultural piece of how we communicated was different. They couldn't be two different organizations, right? You know, like one was uh, you know, craft, soul of the earth. The others were supremely talented, play a high fast tempo game, love to look good, love to feel good, you know.
SPEAKER_00Where when you talk to people that you mentor and and coach yourself, and you how what do you how do you how do you address that with them around how do you get them to look inwards at themselves and go, I need to make some shifts here?
SPEAKER_01Look, look, not everyone's ready for coaching. Not everyone is ready to make that change. That's so that's a key point is like sometimes people aren't ready to inquire into why do I think this way? Because sometimes it's not comfortable. Looking internally, sometimes it can be very difficult. Some people aren't ready for it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's okay. Well, I remember I remember there were when we first chatted around some of that stuff, and I I was very resistant to some of the stuff and had to go away and actually think about that and go why do I get defensive around that? Like, what is what are my blockers here when you're raising that? And you were good at pushing the buttons on that, like just like what's what's the issue with that? Like, why is that an issue? Why is that a problem?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then like, yeah, I don't know the answers, you've got the answers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So one of the ones I think it's it's a personal one is around, like, I'm not a big data guy. Yeah. And you were challenging me around why don't you use the data? And I was like, Oh, I just I'd like to trust my gut. And then you were making references around, wouldn't a good set of data help your gut make even better decisions than it's currently making to something to that effect?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like like the what the the use of data in sport. I I work in data, like the company I work for KitMant Labs, we are at the forefront of understanding and and helping teams make impactful decisions around how they use their data.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Part of my role as a strategist is to help teams facilitate how to use data effectively. And I think part of the coaching journey I think I bring to that is it's a marriage. The marriage of data and intuition. You think about data as objective truth. Like absolutely coaches need to use their intuition of gut feeling.
Absolutely. How they validate that gut feeling is through objectivity, is through data. One does not work without the other. And strong, a strong data presence, a strong um data landscape, clear processes, clear understanding, with a really strong intuition, the ability to ask really insightful questions of that data, you've got such a powerful, powerful coach, powerful environment to be in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess people can have the other way too, where they might be a super heavy data guy. Yeah. And then can't ask the way questions. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No idea how to like be intuitive. Okay, what do we think about this? And some of the other way where think about the other way where it's all about intuition. Okay, well, great. Sometimes and a lot of coaches work that way. And I'm not saying it's wrong because coaches are highly successful, but the opportunity for growth is if you your intuition mainly be off, you you're you've you've got false flavors, you've got false paths you go down where where the data validates your questions. Okay, I think this and the key in what we're doing is the company, I think, really, really well, is we help teams answer those questions really quickly. You have an idea hypothesis, you collect data, you analyze that data, you make a decision. Does it does it validate your hypothesis? Do you iterate, do it again, or do you ask another question? So that whole principle of why you gather information, why you ask questions of your information, used to take a long time. How you manage that process, how you can quickly iterate on that, like you're asking questions and answering them at a rate where you start to, I guess, move past other groups who aren't moving as quick.
SPEAKER_00It's you you've just sparked something in me there when you're thinking we were talking about data then, yeah. But and asking questions to, you know, work out the hypothesis, jerk out all that stuff. And that's what scientists do, right? Yes, it is. But it's essentially in teams, coaches also got to ask those those sort of questions around like the what we talked about before about the people, about what that empathy level, how do you get through to people? You've got to ask good questions of people and practice that side of things, right? To validate assumptions and things like why is this guy acting like this? Yeah. Well, let's ask him these series of questions and see where that goes.
SPEAKER_01And the more you know about how people and the way you understand people, such a it's a big business now, like self-development. First, when you understand yourself, you can understand the different flavours of personality, different flavors of ego. And it's been a ball for support for long on personality profiling. But it goes beyond that a little bit. They can help you like understand where if you're using like uh Enneagram, is your type 9, as your type 1. Yeah. Or if you're using like disc, what colour is he? Yeah. You've probably been through before with, you know, you're in your type yellow. You'd be definitely yellow. What's a yellow? Uh more of like uh an enthusiast productions, you know, uh from the Enneagram perspective. Yep. I think. Yeah, I think I think it would sound right. Type seven. Yeah. But like once you understand that, you can start to understand, okay, well, how can I communicate better with this person? If I've got a bunch of these same type of people, it's kind of like the almost like almost like a talent character paradigm. You understand where people are. And that's that's that's objective information you can then use to make a decision how you communicate with your team. Okay, what I what do I know? Well, I know we've got a bunch of I'm using any any IRAM talk here, I've got a bunch of eights and nines. So a bunch of people who challenge authority, we've got a bunch of people who are to keep a team together. All right, okay, but what do I need? We need some we need some helpers, we need some type twos potentially. I don't know. The more you get to understand the grig you have, the more you can make decisions on how you communicate, how you lead them. Without you making assumptions or they should they should all understand that.
SPEAKER_00No, just they think potentially think differently. Well, this is you this is that scientist analogy. You you're you're the scientist in a social context, isn't it? Trying to work things out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the same question, it's just like it's searching a different moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah,
it was like you can just equate that to like being a social scientist on a date. Yeah. And the questions you're asking over dinner is forming your formulating opinion, right? So you're factoring in all the stuff whether you want to date this person or marry this person or what else, all that stuff. So it's it's the same sort of principle as that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Like So think so think about the teams that you know. don't have access to sports so for ages. Think about the the the teams who maybe don't have the budgets to do that. Imagine if all all the coaches in those positions had the skills to be able to access, develop, coach their players. I I I believe that that's such a powerful piece. As a coach, one, but how you can facilitate growth and true performance isn't understanding.
SPEAKER_00And then this stuff is actually good for life too, right? Like it it's whilst coaching you're trying to get better at the stuff for that purpose, all the stuff you'd be learning in that environment quite so your own home life and family life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, first stage of that is understanding yourself. And the better you understand yourself, the the simpler it is the under we understand where you're going back to your responsibilities. How can I understand well how do how do I turn up in this environment? What what what got you know? Like in the situation where I've like feelings are a flag. Feelings and your state is a flag of understanding well what's what's running at the moment? Well I'm not feeling that way okay so where inquiry comes in says where we've spoken about the power of journaling as a coach. What's the power of that yeah tell me what's the journal let's let's think about business and sport. And J, who's a mentor he's been involved in in business for a long time coaching CEOs, executives and part of that is developing their abilities as leaders and now taking that to professional sport. But what that enables people to do is to be able to talk about that. So as soon as it comes out it's and written down or recorded, you've got a different perspective of what you're thinking and feeling. This is what journaling does. You write down your thoughts when you write down your feelings and you write down just some observations you are no longer subject to those. You can take a different perspective and be objective.
SPEAKER_00Because you're looking at it from a different angle.
SPEAKER_01It's out it's a it's it's it's an objective piece of information. You're not subject to those emotions. You can look at it go okay why did I feel that way I felt that way because um Ben didn't appreciate my skill okay well why did he think that okay well he may just want the best of the team oh okay I can see that now so it just gives you a different way to I heard um Hugh were talking a while back about like that um camera angle it's low spectrum perspectives and how that equates.
SPEAKER_00I'm going to elaborate on how that the I think you had a playground analogy where security campus it's a good so if you think about we talked about developmental coaching and human development.
SPEAKER_01So essentially as humans we develop away from narcissism. Narcissism is essentially about understanding only thinking about yourself. So as like everyone has to develop every human doesn't escape but some develop faster than others some grow up wake up faster than others and some get stuck. And typically the more perspectives you can take the further you're up that ladder. It's where and talk about this for a long time but like first person perspective is is me. Yeah I think about myself looking out through my eyes I can only take my perspective all I can think about is myself. Okay second person perspective. This comes from a theory called integral theory by development yourself I was just gonna go first person perspective is all the internal second is a second person perspective which is me and you
it's the it's the we okay it's us right I can see you you can see me. The third which is an objective perspective is looking at me and you having a conversation that's a third it's a very objective view. Because I'm looking at two people having a conversation to be able to look at something without being subject to it.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Fourth perspective if you uh in a playground and we were talking you could see a person looking at us but you're you're a helicopter view a bird's eye view looking down that's uh it's a a fourth person perspective it's it's the ability to take a a systems view of a of a of an environment for example how does this team look from a support perspective who's who's running the medical who's doing the performance who's looking at the careers you can take a a a different perspective on things and once you get past kind of those perspectives you're into what they call second tier consciousness secondary learning which is a father conversation. But typically as you grow you develop those perspectives in life what coaching does what coaching does is help people facilitate growth through those perspectives and give them a start. Because sometimes you can only hold it's about this group you don't you're you're subject to you know it's the it's the cultural piece of um you're either with us or without us you're either in our group or out of our group right you're either you're either uh Catholic or Muslim right that's a perspective stuck in at that lower level right because it's I or it's you and me you're it's first or second level.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well you look at that you can see if you look take a third person perspective you can see the benefit of both. So so that's kind of where journaling circling back to that is like when you essentially write your feelings or your what your thoughts down on a piece of paper it's taking it from that internal first person. Yeah it's putting it down on an on a piece of paper and now you're looking at it and you're taking a third person. I reckon that's powerful I I I don't think I've ever heard that explained as well as that. Like I've always heard generally it's good and it feels good and you do it. But then it makes a lot of sense you write it down you're now looking at that objectively rather than those thoughts spinning round in your head just emotionally and bouncing all over the show and going down into horrible downward spirals.
SPEAKER_01It works the same way as talking it's like with talking to people it's just very cathartic like people having a conversation with someone becomes such an important piece because you can talk your what you're experiencing. If you've got the right environment becomes such a powerful tool in order to be able to understand someone support someone move someone from point A to point B someone who's not fulfilling the potential to someone who is fulfilling the potential right yeah and this is this is gold stuff for the way coaching is going so this is where modern coaching is now the science backs up this sort of stuff up right the the stuff you're saying is not just you know objective stuff yeah it's not sorry it's not just intuitive it's not intuition it's just data to through the roof on this sort of stuff right yeah like I think successful coaches have found a way of or have been taught well this stuff is new that coaches who understand how to communicate effectively how to deliver a message
effectively like you had you had Joe on a couple of weeks with when we spoke about words matter and how you deliver a message right and him as an as a previous English teacher I thought was really powerful because the words he chose the words he used and how he delivered a message were so important I'm like absolutely that's a skill that some people don't always have how to build a uh like a really coherent frame to what you want with a skill and as an English teacher he's well into that well I think he was a lovely one that's Joe Schmidt was talking about make words sticky.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah and and I just love that phrase in itself like when you hear it make them stick make them sticky so every thing you say it's got to be sticking to people's mind and the way you do that is specific. Like and he talked from his context um alliteration the same letter yeah yeah yeah body ball is what he called a phrase and uh angles and arcs yeah yeah and then he said also use rhyming and because it sticks in people's minds more and then all the detail comes under that yeah but you can just go bang a an alliterative sentence just lands and I was watching our players when he was coaching them on uh various things and he just had these phrases that were catchy and sticky and it's that's it just create a quick rapid fire meaning bang straight off the battery you go rapid meaning so they under they can understand and then understand where he's coming from can understand his perspective quickly.
SPEAKER_01He was using words right yeah um and it's it sounds really simple like words you know illicit meaning of course but how they elicit meaning how you structure that frame how you structure that conversation becomes really important.
SPEAKER_00And these are these are skills you can you practice right that's absolutely and that's where him and someone looking over your shoulder mentoring can actually go, did you pick up on that? Did you notice you were doing this?
SPEAKER_01Like as part of our co as part of learning the skill we sat in threes like for two days I'm coaching you some as observer okay how do you frame what the language you're using okay here's your feedback this is what I heard okay like how to g like there's a good point like giving feedback like what is feedback how to give it effective as a coach these skills right like which some people wouldn't determine don't understand. Feedback is typically purely objective right an opinion you know is is subjective for you but you'd offer it of an opinion you have an opinion on on something but feedback typically is purely objective forgot what was going on there but like um like how you communicate with people how how you frame a conversation becomes really important. It's practice, yeah it's talking about practice practice makes perfect so how you learn to build a frame getting in instant feedback okay you missed that you missed that right do it again yeah right so I'll so I it within our own company Cat main labs we've been doing some work with managers people who who are in charge of high performing venants around us how are you framing your venents how are you framing your conversation how can we make you as a manager leader effective first of all how do you do your how do you understand the people you're dealing with so wait on so you you've got a couple of frameworks for framing is that what we're saying yeah well what are you talking well what's the outcome what's the goal what do you what do you want what's the outcome of this conversation what's the purpose what's the outcome what's it what's the purpose what's the purpose what's what are you gonna talk about what's the outcome honest it's different ways to frame and internally we we use a word called power a power P A O purpose agenda outcome it's typically a frame is a contract we have with each other about how we're gonna communicate you think about contract if I give you a contract from a car you don't sign that contract is it valid? No so to sign the contract you need confirmation Ben today we're gonna talk about um your performance um and then we're gonna talk about this right without confirmation you've got we've got permission to talk about that so Ben
want to talk about your performance is that okay yes contract signed right now I've got permission to talk about your performance now we're all now what the idea we're talking about is about performance.
SPEAKER_00And we're on the same page same page as a contract who and so in sales they call that an upfront contract which is fine it kept such an important piece of them as a case into game well that was gentlemen the other day and he said that he uses this and he goes do you want me to be brutally honest? And he frames it and of course the answer is nearly always yes yeah and then he can say anything he wants yep and he can be as mean spirited as he would want not that he is yeah but it's opening that door isn't it he's brutal as a perspective. Yeah so you choose how he listened that facilitates that ah that's a mate that's a cool little thing enter in a create a contract and get them designed yeah yeah yeah upfront contract yeah that's a that's a that's sales spin yeah but that's good enough for coaches right yeah credit for contract because you you can like you can even say things like I'm not just gonna have to tell my head here but like are you boys prepared to work hard today yeah yeah great well this is what we're doing that's so that rather than say that frame there then it's a terrible question.
SPEAKER_01Oh so how is there a difference on that? Yeah it's an open and closed question right so like there's a nuance between how you work with the individual and how you group oh yeah what's the difference types of frame like so um it's it's how you get your confirmation so today team we're gonna go out and we're gonna we're gonna work hard um because of these reasons talk to your values whatever um if you have any problem with that come see us right but I but I but but from a show of hands or from the silence is a affirmed yes okay no it's shows they've agreed to the file right so it's it's it's uh it's a skill you gotta practice once you have it it is such a powerful tool to steer your communication where you want to go gee I love that it's a nice little thing to start practicing right if we start framing up everything you're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah well the meetings you the meetings you have is some of the groups this coaching group okay this is the purpose of the meeting is we're gonna talk about the outcome is we want this is it okay with anyone yep great now you've got permission to talk specifically about certain subjects and forth and so that's the power you were talking about purpose a different way to frame yeah yeah so here's the purpose this is what we're gonna talk about um now come we're not gonna get to that we all aboard on this yeah if you're gonna present too like when you're presenting a group you miss that this is what done this is the agenda this is the outcome you framed your meter clearly this shared understanding of what you're gonna talk about gee I think that's a powerful one I think that's in so many contexts like you can add we if we're talking just exclusively rookie it's the meetings it's the feedback sessions it's the actual on-field stuff yeah it's the aftermatch reviews so many times you walked in a review and the coach is just gone straight into the review yes yeah yeah how how should it what's a better way of doing that right how how I would I would talk to why we train it or why are we playing what's the meaning by the what what what the goals were of of of play okay this is what we try to achieve from a technical tactical perspective these are the goals what we're gonna do today is how talk about how we feared against those goals
right okay with that yeah cool so all of a sudden you get permission to talk about how you trained how you played that is in itself too a really good one because a lot of teams actually have those goals or most teams would you'd say we want to dominate the breakdown today and we want to get you know 75% of the breakdowns in our favour something like that. Then that's what you review right rather than anything else. And this and like I've also been in those meetings where like the coach looks and angry or there's a spray I'll get your perspective off like in Australia it's uh giving giving the players a spray what are your thoughts on on a spray then I'm not a massive fan on a spray because it it's certain times if it's about if it and then maybe in the in the time you can probably critique that one with a spray if it warrants it but on the whole I I would I wouldn't present uh spray on results or any outcomes like that because that's with a hard time spray and it's sometimes it actually works. It's interesting and I don't know I don't I don't particular particularly like delivering but I do them rarely but when I have done them maybe it's because they've they're done rarely they seem to intuitively do something and you just maybe it's the passion piece maybe it's because they don't see it all the time they're like oh there's either he must be serious on this one but when it's done all the time it's like it feels like it's just white noise and it makes no difference. Yeah you can think who does it serve who's the spray serve well I guess that's delivering it how they feel opinion. I guess it's the intention I reckon it's the intention behind it. If the intention of the spray is to enlicit a response which feels like it's needed and that's considered the way to do it I would say that's for the team. If if it's not intentional where it's just I'm frustrated rant yeah then that's that's for you the coach yeah yeah yeah like you talked about how you show up well like understanding the more you understand yourself as a college the more you understand how you what your belief structures are what your values are like look at them interrogate them where have they come from because a lot of who we are our personality in this is driven from our adolescence so what we believe in is coming from the parents what we believe in is we're we're part of our the environment we've been subject to sometimes the a lot of the time I get to coach on this these but these beliefs and values went running us without us knowing what yeah why am I angry at this why am I why am I upset?
SPEAKER_01I like to think of that way but you're right the attention behind the spray as a coach understanding why you're feeling these emotions in that time you know why am I getting angry at this in this you know because you see some coaches do that show zero emotion.
SPEAKER_00I've kind of respect that a little bit I like that too you know I'm on it I used to be on soil on an absolute nine I've been around a few too myself cooking and throwing water bottles yes now mate I've got the we're we're actually I'd like to ask you this question mate this is our this is our last question for today is what's one thing you believe um around this stuff that we're talking about about coaches and how they can get better that you believe in that you reckon contemporaries would disagree with I th I I do believe that it's
your responsibility as the coach I can sports psychologists have a driver I and I've I've I've been part of teams with some amazing sports psychologists Kat Hayes Peter Kruger and been following teams amazing but I think controversy I think is the role of the coach to be able to deliver some of these messages and work with work intimately with these players I I think palming off is the wrong word palming off that responsibility Yeah that's my contribution I I think like to deal with like trauma and difficult moments with tip of players when the team yeah I mean we're talking about performance I think that's a bit led by people or something. It's funny I I heard someone say the other day to around the culture where the teams was getting a culture expert in to come and deliver that to a team and outsourcing that side of things work. Yeah yeah it's similar to what you said that falls squarely on the head coach's role like that's part of the role if you or she can't deliver that then you've got to be looking to grow that side of your game because that's important. You have to be outsourcing that side of things right I agree.
SPEAKER_01I think that but I think that's also a nature of understanding and and the ways of a lot of what we're talking about now no one talked about Tim Liza. No no one talked about and I wish they had or I wish I had access to this I wish I had access to these types of conversations and the ones I've had the past five six years you know 20 years ago. It's enlightening isn't it it makes it makes it's a whole it's a game changer in like well get what get it meaning what what what drives what you do gives me meaning the ability to be able to one work within the young With it was amazing. It helped people it would also facilitate and help with the young coaches and coaches involved with I perform the sport like being able to help them where I didn't have it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00John Tams what a what an absolute pleasure to have you in person on the Coaching Culture podcast if I may I'd like to just wrap up with my three big takeaways from this awesome conversation made and having had many of these conversations we could go long into the night I reckon we could we'll have a few beers later on tonight and probably go further into that sort of thing. But here they are mate number one is you said at the start of how important the fundamentals of rapport are when You are a coach or a leader in any situation. And little tips you said is being able to match language and match values. And without rapport, you get a real distinct lack of flow of communication. And I love that kind of concept too. That like on a date, you're sort of searching for little connection points around how to make that date go better. And you do those things and yet actually find it will go better. And it certainly equates to coaching as well. Number two, you said feelings are a flag. And I think that is an awesome little concept. Never to shy away from them because they are flagging
something in you which you need to address. Which is important. Which is important, right? And important and nothing to get down on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned one fantastic way to separate out your some of your internal feelings is journaling. Because journeying journaling makes things objective rather than subjective. And you talked about breaking it down from the first person to the second person to the third person. And then once you're in that space, you're getting it out of your head and you're viewing it from a very different standpoint. Which I think is a cool and perspective, which is fantastic. And number three is just this concept around frame everything, frame things to hold powerful meaning. And we we briefly touched on the way good coaches frame up their words to make it stick in people's minds. And you said this purpose, agenda, outcome, or power. You get those things in, you set the purpose, you set the agenda and the outcome, and then you get an upfront contract. Do you want to hear it? Do you buy into this? Is my feedback welcome here? And as soon as someone says yes, you're in. You've got permission. You've got permission. Contract sign, and away you go. And I just think that's a lovely little thing just to remember, an important one for coaches, to practice that. Practice your framing because it's it's such a valuable tool to have. John Dams. What a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today. What a pleasure to do it.