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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Chris Webb: Rugby Management and Leadership Insights
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Chris Webb, a luminary in high-performance sports management, shares captivating stories from his tenure in rugby, spanning World Cups with top teams like Australia and Japan. Tune in as Chris recounts his journey from rural New South Wales with aspirations of becoming a stock and station agent, to a career in rugby management. His reflections on people management and the value of making each day meaningful provide valuable life lessons, offering listeners wisdom from both his professional and personal experiences.
Explore the forward-thinking initiatives in rugby that focus on player welfare and career development, demonstrating how the sport has long prioritized preparing players for life beyond the field. Hear about the transformative transition from amateur to professional rugby and the dynamic roles that sports management entails. Sharing my own unique career journey, which blends experiences from rugby and equestrian sports, this episode delves into how versatility and adaptability, especially in the face of challenges like COVID-19, are crucial for maintaining a harmonious work-life balance.
Discover the nuanced dynamics of leadership within Rugby Australia, highlighted by the challenging transition of replacing coach Dave Rennie with Eddie Jones. Chris Webb underscores the critical role of resilience, communication, and culture in high-stakes environments. Through insights gathered from working with renowned coaches, we emphasize the importance of fostering strong relationships and a positive organizational culture. This episode is a rich tapestry of experiences and insights, focusing on the power of interpersonal connections and the importance of fostering individual growth in achieving success on and off the field.
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I'm one of the best idea thieves in the business. You know I can and will take something and make it my own. It might look fantastic in the sunshine. Will it stand up in the rain During World Cup 2023,? Mate, you'd piss down every day.
Speaker 2Do you know what I?
Speaker 1mean. People often say what's the golden rule with people management? And the answer is treat people the way you want to be treated. Yep, but the platinum rule is treat people the way they want to be treated. But I had this philosophy where I said it's not about counting down the days, it's about making the days count oh yeah, that chestnut love it and you and you had to stick by it. And I stuck by it and that's what got us through, I reckon, Gee, I love that. That's a different way of thinking about it.
Speaker 2That's a powerful, that's a powerful way of seeming there.
Speaker 1And I think people might hear that and cringe, but deep down, if they think about that, they go excellent.
Speaker 2Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages, and today I am loving being on site at Balmoral Beach in Manly. On this episode, we catch up with Chris Webb. Chris has been a pro manager and a high performance manager since rugby's professionalism in 1995. Throughout his journey, he's been to multiple world cups with multiple teams, including Australia and Japan, and worked with the who's who of international rugby coaches. Today he shares his personal story and Australia's story from the 2023 World Cup, full of awesome insights. He also shares all the stories and learnings that has overseen his stellar career. There is some absolute, unbelievable wisdom in his words. You might need to take notes here. He is need to take notes here. He is Right over here, wembley. So, before we get to the cultural piece, what I'd love to do is just get a little bit of your background on you, as what you've done over the last gazillion years mate.
Speaker 1No, it's big mate and you often reflect on those questions and it's hard not to put it into a 20 minute story.
Speaker 2I'll try to be quick.
Speaker 1Mate, I grew up in the country in New South Wales here in Australia, and my dad was a stock and station agent, real estate agent, auctioneer, and that's all I wanted to be. I just wanted to do that. I just wanted to sell cattle and live on the farm and have a. You know, that was me, and obviously when I went to school here in Sydney and discovered rugby, we had rugby in our little town as well, and my dad and his brother actually established the rugby club and the little town we grew up in was called Gloucester Nowhere near as the team you played for in Gloucester UK, but little Gloucester in New South Wales, not Nowhere near as the team you played for in Gloucester UK, but Little Gloucester and New South Wales, not the Cherries. No, we were called the Cockatoos, but whoever designed the image of the Cockatoo wasn't the greatest artist in the world, and so we had these things called scrum turkeys in the bush and the access area around here, and so we were nicknamed as the howling scrub turkeys.
Speaker 2The howling scrub turkeys.
Speaker 1We weren't very good mate, but we were pretty good at drinking and having a great time and blokes had come out from the bush and a real diverse group of people and we had a bit of time mate. So anyway, that was the start. I went to school in Sydney here as a boarder and then the old man said, listen, you can come back and be a stock and station agent, but the way the cattle industry is going in Australia is that you might need more than that. And he was right and so I became a property valuer. I did a year mum and dad were in the Rotary Club and I did a Rotary Exchange in Japan, right up in the northern prefecture of Ulmary for a year. Came back, went to university in Queensland at the old Queensland Hand College, got a degree but definitely got a PhD in drinking and getting moves A scratching degree, yeah, yeah, yeah, a C's to get degrees, type of degree.
Speaker 1I was called a JP a. Yeah, I see, you get degrees. That's it. That's it. Yeah, I was called a JP a, just pass.
Speaker 1And anyway, set me up beautifully, mate, and I went back home to Dad's agency and learned how to be an auctioneer and got my tickets in that sort of thing. And then I got a job at an Orange, which is in the central west of New South Wales, as a valuer property valuer and did my training in what was called then the Valuer General's Department. And then I got invited to go into a private practice as an employer with a couple of guys out there and so I became this rural property valuer. I absolutely loved it At the same time because I was passionate about rugby I was doing. I was never good enough to be a player and I knew that, but I wanted to be. I wanted to represent Australia, always wanted to, as every young country. What was your weakness? Well, what let you down? Everything.
Speaker 2But I was speed, strength skill.
Speaker 1Skill level was not too bad, speed was definitely not there, strength wasn't there, rugby smarts wasn't there, but my lip was A grade mate. Absolutely Great chat. Great chat. Not support mentally break anybody as well as myself, but just loved it, loved the whole social side of it.
Speaker 1And growing up in rural Australia, rugby or sport is that conduit to your balance in your lifestyle really. Anyway, so I became this property valuer and I was involved in rugby part-time or in a volunteer basis as a manager because I knew I wasn't going to be good enough as a player and I did a bit of I managed. I knew I wasn't going to be good enough as a player and I did a bit of I managed. I was the manager of some of the school teams and then when I left school and did that when I was at university and then when I went to Orange, I did it as well and I got asked to be the manager of the New South Wales under-19s in 1995 or four or something like that, and I drove from Orange three days a week, which is a four-hour one-way trip, to be the manager of the New South Wales Under-19s and we had a fantastic little group and was coached by a guy called Peter Cohen, and we had a great little team that ended up winning most things, and so I absolutely loved that.
Speaker 1And so when the game went professional in 1995, over a period of three or four years powers of B realised that they needed to start investing in younger guys coming through or succession planning and depth charts and talent ID and stuff like that, because the old players that signed were all at the back end of their career and taking all the money and realized that after two or three years we had to turn them over.
Speaker 1And so I got asked whether I'd be the Waratah Academy manager that start the academy. Oh, so you started the academy. Well, I was one of the first people there. Yeah, we had another guy called Brad Royal and he instigated the whole Talent ID part of the Waratahs back in the late 90s, and then I was the manager then and got asked to be the full-time academy manager. Bob Dwyer was the coach at the time. We started off with a guy called Ian Kennedy Speed Kennedy a bit of a local legend here and then Bob Dwyer, and then I worked for Bob amongst other people, but he was the main guy that I was involved with full time and then my career just evolved after that.
Speaker 2I think, when you just keep going down that path once you've got a taste.
Speaker 1You love that Well, and I sort of evolved, developed with the players a little bit. When that academy first started they signed three players. One was Phil Wall, george Smith and there was a second one I called Justin Pearl. Justin ended up being, I think, went into the family plumbing business or something like that, but the other two names we obviously hear and know a lot of and I was signed with those guys we obviously know a lot of and I was signed with those guys and so I evolved in those guys. When George made the Brumbies and then the Wallabies, I was part of that whole progression.
Speaker 2So your starting junket, essentially, was under Bob Dwyer as your first pro coach, as the game was going professional in itself. Yeah, that's it. Wow. So that's a great. Yeah, so everyone's learning at the same time, right.
Speaker 1So when people said you know how long have you been in rugby, I said well, I used to have a real job which was property value, and then I went into this professional sport sort of 10-year-old space.
Speaker 2And was it like? I've chatted to people around that and they've said that it was pretty much the Wild West when that went professional back in the 90s. Yeah, was it pretty much? Fly by the seat of your pants, type stuff.
Professional Evolution and Diversification
Speaker 1Yeah, we were learning on the run, you know we were, and we were learning a lot what not to do. It was interesting that we learned a little bit out of rugby league and AFL, because they'd been professional for quite some time Well, a lot of years and we were only just starting learning that, like you know, I was drafting contracts myself. So we said, well, we've got to sign this bloke to the academy. Well, we'll need a contract. Well, we'll draft one up.
Speaker 1Well, you know so-and-so's a lawyer, and you know so and so's a lawyer, and at, you know, I think it was a guy from sydney university go and give him a ring and show him and see what he thinks, and so that we were learning on the run. And then money was starting to come into the game and then all of a sudden we thought, you know, these guys need balance. You know, how are we gonna? How are we gonna make sure that they're not only developing the rugby player but the person as well? So the Rugby Players Association had started and so that set a framework for how we were going to have a workplace environment, work for the players but also the off-field as well, and so I was part of all that.
Speaker 2Was that something which was big back then, or was that something like you had to push to get in? Or was it a natural progression? No, it was a natural progression.
Speaker 1I think when the game went professional and was set up in 95, they wanted to do it right and they did do that right around a collective bargaining agreement for the players' workplace conditions. But that evolved over time, is it?
Speaker 2unusual for a professional sport to have that sort of insight to start off with all that stuff in place looking after players, because a lot of other professional sports don't roll quite like that in terms of the welfare of players. It sort of takes time. Or is rugby good on that front? I or?
Speaker 1was rugby good on that front?
Speaker 1I think they were pretty good on that front when you look back at that, and it was interesting because a lot of those players who were amateur and then went professional were sort of corporate guys or wanted to be corporate guys or wanted to be corporate guys.
Speaker 1And so, for example, phil Kearns, he was very, very big on what was called the career training scheme for the players and so he retired and then he said you know, young players coming through, they need to be studying or working or doing a trade as well as being in the academies. We have to make sure that when they finish rugby they're going into something. And I remember early on the Rugby Union Players Association had a career training scheme committee and Phil Coons was the chair and I was on it, and a guy called Anthony Addy who's now running the Sydney Indie Sport, a good bloke, very, very holistic in his thinking around development of players. And so yeah, I'd have to say I reckon they had some foresight. Yeah, we don't always get these things right, but in hindsight if you look back you go. That was probably ahead of its time.
Speaker 2I reckon it's some outstanding. I know coming through as a professional player in New Zealand that that was driven really hard. I know coming through as a professional player in New Zealand that was driven really hard, like I probably got the fruits a few years later after that stuff was put in. But certainly in terms of the professional development, getting out, learning about other jobs that was rife through that era and New Zealand did a really, really good job at that.
Speaker 1I reckon they did yeah, yeah, and blokes like Rob Neckle, who you know, michael Lumpin, through the New Zealand Players Association. He did some fantastic things.
Speaker 2He did some wonderful things for the players, and I think the New Zealand Players Association is in a very strong place now and in a good way, and what it's done for the whole game and all the different variations of the game has been wonderful. And so, webby, after you've done that, mate, like you've done your big stint in starting it up, and then you've just progressed You've then gone into Australia.
Speaker 1Yeah, I went. So I was with the Waratahs, obviously, and then I was the academy manager. I became the assistant manager of the Super Rugby team and then I got an opportunity to go to the Wallabies as the assistant manager. Eddie Jones was a coach and Phil Thompson was a manager. I did the 2007 World Cup. Then John Connolly then became the coach and Robbie Deans came in. I went back to the Waratahs as the general manager of the Waratahs and I did that was from 2008 through to 2013.
Speaker 1I had a little bit of time at the force. I had one season at the force, that same role, and then I made a family decision to come back to Sydney. It wasn't going to work out for us in Perth, so I came back to Sydney and when I was during that interim period I got asked by the Australian Institute of Sport would I consider a position with Equestria in Australia, which is the performance horse program for the Olympics? They'd just finished the London Olympics and done a review, and one of the key or some of the key findings from the review was that they felt maybe they needed a change in leadership that had come, one from a professional sporting background and a team's background and because of my rural background and upbringing, your upbringing riding horses.
Speaker 2Well, I knew which end bit, which end the howling scrub turkeys came back to reward you bringing yeah, bringing riding horses.
Speaker 1Well, I knew which end bit and which end bit, and so I could have the howling scrub turkeys came back to reward you Riding one through the bush.
Speaker 2And so I think you know.
Speaker 1I could hold a conversation with these, with the people, and my mum mum was a competitive horse rider when she grew up, and so I knew the language and I my sister went to pony club, and so I did have a connection there. Interesting enough, my paternal grandfather was the Dean of Veterinary Science at Sydney University, so growing up I knew about horse anatomy because he'd absolutely drilled it into us as a kid.
Speaker 2And that was his specialty equine anatomy. You could pick a winner at the Melbourne Cup just by walking through the stable.
Speaker 1But if someone said that horse walked past you, I think that horse is lame. I knew what they were talking about. You don't know. It was lame.
Speaker 2Mate. So you did that. So that's quite a big jump, isn't it from rugby. Well, you actually combined the two, didn't you?
Managing Rugby Culture and High Performance
Speaker 1Yeah, I did so. I was consulting in Japan at the time with the Super Rugby and the Japan national team from 2.14 through to 2.19. And at the same time, I was balancing the equestrian rollers work. Yeah, so we were leading into Rio Olympics and still doing Super Rugby in the test team, and I was jumping between the two, had a lot of travel, but it was good fun. I was practicing my trade in two different, totally different environments and being able to draw them both and absolutely loved it. I had a really understanding wife and our little son was. We were carrying him around the world and going to all those great places too, so it was working pretty well for us, and that went through to 2019.
Speaker 1All of a sudden, covid hits. We were preparing for the Tokyo Olympic Games and that had to change. I got asked by Australian Rugby whether I'd come back to the Wallabies and they'd just signed Dave. Rennie and I went and met Dave and I met a guy called Scott Johnson-Johnno who brought me back, and so we were lining up pre-COVID to go through to Francois-Roccoa. So that's how that sort of that's how I went into equestrian, stayed in Japan, then came back to Australia and maintained equestrian too, because of the Tokyo Olympic Games.
Speaker 2And that took you. Then you did two stints, essentially finishing in the last World Cup. Yeah, which I imagine. There is some great tests of character when you go to a World Cup and don't get the results the whole nation wants.
Speaker 1I can imagine there was yeah, mate, it was a fantastic challenge and when you look back at it now, at the time, how do we get through this? How do I get through this? And how do we get through this? Because a lot of we went through a lot of change. As is quite well known, as Dave Renning was the coach, and the Rugby Australia side nine months out from the World Cup changed that.
Speaker 1Go back to Eddie Jones. I'd worked with Eddie before and we were quite close. Eddie and I, personally and professionally, we'd done a lot together over a long period of time and I always found him a great person to stay connected with because he was a great challenger and a great leveler at the same time and we got on very, very well. So a lot of people and everybody knew that I had a strong relationship with Eddie and so, through the change, when Dave Rennie left, they said well, listen, we're going to rely on you a little bit to help with this, because you know him and you know how this is working and you're a bit of a constant in this. So it's important that you stick around and we get through this.
Speaker 1And at the time I thought you're constantly telling your kids never give up. So I said, no, no, I'll stick this out. I knew what this was going to look like for me personally. I knew what it looked like professionally working with Eddie, and what the change that we had to make of and the decisions that had been made around us I kind of didn't couldn't really control. So it was about how do we make good of this? And then you know, as any campaign, you work back the amount of days from, from when it finishes. So I was counting those down pretty much and and. But I had this philosophy where I said it's not about counting down the days, it's about making the days count oh yeah, that chestnut lover and you and you and just stuck by it and I stuck by it and that's what got us through, I reckon.
Managing High Performance Relationships in Rugby
Speaker 1And then you know it's. It's not a one-person show, it's a team effort and there's probably 60 or 70 people involved, so it was a great challenge. We weren't successful, no, but you know, you listen to these podcasts or you talk to people. You learn more from your failures than you do your successes, and although that wasn't a great time for us individually or as a team or for the rugby community in general, but shit, we learn a lot, you know, and we learn a lot about each other and we learn a lot about other people around us. So you know, you talk about culture and things like that. Really interesting. You know. Another snippet that I got from this guy called Scott Johnson is it might look fantastic in the sunshine. Will it stand up in the rain During World Cup 2023, mate, he'd piss down every day.
Speaker 2Everywhere in Australia. Even though the sun was shining in Australia, it was raining everywhere.
Speaker 1Raining everywhere and every hole was leaking, and so it's a matter around how you keep that environment up, how you keep these guys going, how you kept Eddie going, how I kept everybody else going, as well as myself. It was a big challenge when you look back at that.
Speaker 2Well, I'd like to dive into this challenge because you've got an interesting position here, because you're not an on-field coach and a lot of the listeners to this will be on-field coaches who deal with the pressures of coaching but you're that one step removed where you're essentially watching that bigger picture thing. You're seeing things evolve, you're seeing things happen ahead of time. You're not in the field space, but you're taking that wider stance. So how did you manage that culture and what is your role in that as the manager?
Speaker 1or the high performance director. Yeah, I think in these roles, whether you're the high performance director or the team manager or the general manager is, you are the conduit between the people in the team and the external stakeholders, and vice versa. You're also this guy that's meant to be a generalist in everything, and the expectation on people is you're expecting to be the master of all that as well. And when coaches come under pressure and mate, you're a coach and we've all worked with them is that they have these idiosyncrasies and sometimes external people might not see that as reasonable, so you're the one that has to put that reasonable facet to it. And vice versa. You know, in every coach I work for, I think I have this relationship that are strong enough to trust each other. Yep, and so you know a coach whether it was Eddie or Dave Rennie or Bob Dwyer they would rely on you to just take a different perspective and be the fire captain. Put the fire out, put the fires.
Speaker 2Would it sort of equate to like in a traditional sort of fatherhood, motherhood type thing, where the dad's being a bit of a douche and getting frustrated or something and lays it out a certain way, then mum has to come in and just soothe it down a?
Speaker 1little bit. Is that a good? I think it's a pretty good analogy, as long as mum and dad have had their conversation on every thing that can present itself first. Yes, and I think that's where I enjoyed great relationships with my head coaches, in that I had a whether it was an ability, but I had a perception. I knew what they expected. They were clear around their standards and expectations and I could manage that.
Speaker 2Is that a big thing for your role?
Speaker 1to make it easier is when the head coaches have clear expectations on everything 100%, and I think, ultimately, the coach is going to get judged on what happens inside the paint, you know, the white lines and the 80 minutes. That's what they get judged on. They get judged on their performances. They don't get judged on the peripheral things that happen in every other minute of the week. And so it's really important in our roles is that we are seen to be managing that for them, and we often say that our role is not to add pressure, it's to take it off, and I think that's probably why I enjoyed you know you'd have to ask him but a strong relationship with Eddie, because he'd go well deep down. I think we'd sort that out for me, you know. Yeah well.
Speaker 1I've got to focus on this and he's got that, did you?
Speaker 2have particular examples from that. Like I'd imagine a lot of people like I'm certainly intrigued about how that environment, like was there examples from the World Cup feeling where you had to do things particularly, yeah, I think, remedy situations, yeah, and I think even in most environments you do right, and one example I can think of that happens all the time is the managing up and the out.
Speaker 1So you've all got. So we deal with boards, and in professional sport, most boards are volunteers. Most board directors are volunteers that have an emotional attachment. It's not like a corporate board. They have an emotional attachment and so they're going to have opinions, but they're not specialists or experts in high performance necessarily, and so when you deal with chairmen, the only feedback they get is when they're sitting in the pub or the lounge room and hearing their mates go well, why did Eddie pick that bloke? And so you're the guy that has to say Eddie. And these coaches don't have the time, nor do they want to explain to boards why they're selecting teams, because that's not the board's role, whilst the manager can take that pressure off by saying here's the team that we've selected, here are the reasons why, and try and dissipate that unnecessary intervention.
Speaker 2Did you have to do a lot of that Because there was a lot of big contentious selection issues as well documented.
Speaker 1We don't have to justify them, nor do I have to explain them. And it wasn't just selection, it was lots of things. Selection, it was lots of things. And whether it was Bob Dwyer or Dave Rennie or Tom Blackadder at Toshiba, or Jamie Joseph or Eddie Jones or John Connolly, it's the same role.
Speaker 2And you've actually worked when you read those names out. Mate, you've actually been joined to some amazing coaches.
Speaker 1I've been really lucky to work with some quality people.
Speaker 2If I can just digress just off that, because that's a great little segue into like what have you taken from those guys? Because there's a lot of the IP and like intellect of rugby from the group you just mentioned is phenomenal. Like, what have you picked up from those guys?
Speaker 1Yeah, mate, heaps and mate, I'm one of the best idea thieves in the business. You know I can and will take something and make it my own and tailor it to suit, and I think you learn a lot what not to do. But you do take snippets of goods and bits and pieces out of context and environments. So, you know, dave Rennie, in a certain environment, will say this you know shit, he absolutely nailed that. But then, in another context, eddie will go under this environment. He nailed that, or geez, he didn't get that right. And so what I've learned is that it doesn't matter whether it's a horse or a hockey stick or a rugby ball or whatever it is. It's about the people and the bits. That I learned is the interpersonal sensitivity of certain coaches when they get it right and they get it wrong.
Speaker 2What do you mean by interpersonal sensitivity? It's a lovely phrase.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? It's emotional intelligence. It's how do we deal with people to get the best out of them. People often say what's the golden rule with people management, and the answer is treat people the way you want to be treated. But the platinum rule is treat people the way they want to be treated, and I reckon that's what I learned from all those guys.
Speaker 2Do you think all of those that elite crew you just talked about were particularly good in their own way at that interpersonal sensitivity stuff? Do you reckon that's a big point of difference for those elite?
Speaker 1level coaches. I reckon Definitely, and I think, to put it a different way, if you think about our industry, one way of phrasing it is we're in the caring industry and those blokes are genuine carers.
Speaker 2They are. I found yeah, I agree, Having worked with a number of them myself. Whatever the exterior comes across is the amount they care is unanimous across the best coaches in the world. It's like the level of care goes deeper than just surface level stuff.
Speaker 1This concept of young players. They don't care how much you know, as long as they know how much you care. And I just thought everyone with Steve Hansen. He was a master at that. He was a master of timing to know when to have a conversation with a person that shows he genuinely cares about, and that's the difference it is mate, and how do you see like from your point of view?
Speaker 2how do you see these guys getting better at that? Do you think, like you've had a lot of premium coaches that you've worked with? Are they just naturally that way. You think, or do you reckon they put time into working with it?
Speaker 1No, they put a lot of time and effort into it and because society and culture changes and generations change. If you think about when you played and the type of coaches you had around, how you were motivated is very, very different to your son, who might play in three or four years' time. It's very, very different, but these coaches it's the same person. So Bob Dwyer coached over a period of 30 years and he would have gone through probably two or three generational changes and still was successful when he finished, and so much so. Last year, when we were preparing for World Cup, eddie brought Bob in several times and Bob had this innate ability to sit down in a meal room and have a conversation.
Speaker 1I remember him distinctly having a chat with a young player, young Max Jorgensen, who was 19, just become a professional, and Bob this kid was listening to Bob for 20 minutes and most young boys who is this old boy? But Bob had this ability to ask the right questions and connect with this kid Unbelievable. It makes a nice young man too. But that sort of stuff, mate, and look at Eddie he's still coaching at the highest level and having an impact on people's lives. He is you know that mate.
Speaker 2Yeah, he is. That's awesome man. And so, just to sum up your learnings from that World Cup period because it's intriguing from your point of view, that bigger picture did you have any key takeaways from that period that you feel like needs to come out of your mouth? I think, yeah, I did a lot of work on that.
Speaker 1I had a pretty good figure that spoke to a lot of people.
Speaker 2About getting things off your chest, oh mate.
Speaker 1I've got some great advice from a lovely bloke, a guy called Frank Dick. Frank is a Scottish guy who coached Team GB athletics over multiple Olympic Games. Coached both, like Daley Thompson, seb Cohen, amazing, amazing guy. And he said listen, webby, whether it's a World Cup or an Olympic Games, you've got to go through some recovery, and there'll be three phases of it. First one's the physical recovery. You haven't slept for three months, so you better get on top of that.
Speaker 1One is the mental recovery, and that's about your day-to-day routines and reconnecting with your family, and that'll take a few days. But mate the emotional recovery, that doesn't have a time limit to it. That could take three months, that could take two years, and so I had to spend a fair bit of time around. It wasn't just me, it was all the people that were involved too. I still keep connected with a lot of the guys that were in that World Cup team and a lot who weren't in that World Cup team, if you might remember. Yes, some staff members didn't go and some players didn't go, and so talking and working with them and keeping those relationships up was good for me, but also good for them.
Speaker 2And did a lot of people have a lot of time, just like the physical one they all got, but did a lot of people take a good chunk of time to recover? Was it a pressure on that much in that World Cup?
Speaker 1I don't think so. You know, pressure's only how you perceive it. But I'm sure everyone would be different. Some would have, you know, got on with it and been fine, and others would have needed to spend some time. I felt I needed to spend some time on it. You know, the last four or five years for everyone whether it's COVID or whatever it was and lots of different change for me. It was a good time to reflect on that, do a bit of research, yeah, learn about how I could do things better, how I could grow, not just from that experience but over the last 10 or 15 years.
Speaker 1But getting back to your question, one of the key learnings was unison. Change will always present high risk. So we've nine months out from the World Cup. We decided to change the head coach. The new head coach came in and had a totally different way of doing it and we went to a CEO change. We went to a chairman change lots of change and a lot was new. I think out of the 25 staff that were around for World Cup, five came from the previous year and so 20 out of the 25 had to change and we had to get those people onboarded and into it and embedded into the program within sort of four months of it starting.
Speaker 2And that's really rapid timing for a high elite level international program. Well, it's not new, it's not normal. It's not normal, it's not normal.
Speaker 1So we had to really fast track him. I can't remember how I was committed to that and he used to question me a lot around. Mate, you don't be resistant to this. It's a big change, mate, but I'm in it, we're in it together. We'll get this done. Do you think it can be done or is it like, and what do you have? Here's the point and here's the learning.
Losing, Leadership, and Communication
Speaker 1I think Unison change sometimes you can't control. I couldn't, I'll just grab that. Yeah, I couldn't control that decision that was made for us, but what I could control was how I reacted to that and how I could influence how everybody else was impacted by that. And so we worked hard on that. And I think, when I look back at the learnings, newness and change can happen, and no, it's not ideal, but it happened and it'll happen again at some point. How do you mitigate and minimise the risk of that change, of it going south? And the learnings for me is alignment and communication around what we're trying to achieve and how we're going to achieve it and I think you know Eddie and I have talked about this and he's talked about it publicly is that we probably, you know, if we had our time again, then taking more people on the journey and embedding them more probably would have done, but we're out of time, to be honest.
Speaker 1Yeah, it was a countdown, wasn't it? So I think, malernix, if change is going to happen, it will present risk. How do you minimize that risk? And the best way to minimize that risk is dealing with the people you know, because uncertainty breeds anxiety and we know that that puts pressure on people in a high-performing environment. So if we can give them some certainty around what's actually happening, they're going to feel it. They mightn't like it, but they're going to feel, they're going to accept it easier.
Speaker 2Do you think that's something which has been a trait of all those great coaches that you mentioned? Because, knowing nearly all of them personally, they're all men who are very certain with their ideas and whether it's a good idea or not, they're very certain that this is the way it's going to be. And do you think that has helped those elite coaches grow, stay elite coaches? Because they just provide a really certain way of doing things and are almost singularly focused that this is what we're going to do and people just jump on because you have to and because it's so clear, you just roll with it. And that seems like a trait of all the elite coaches I know.
Speaker 1Well, they have a vision, they're clear on their vision. It can be more effective if people are bought into that vision and a little saying. It's a lot of C's here, but co-created, collaborated clarity is the new clever.
Speaker 2Is that something like she shall, she shalls on the she shore.
Speaker 1That's it. She shall sanctuary. Great song by the Colts.
Speaker 2I don't reckon I can say that back to you four times in a row slowly, can you?
Speaker 1give me it one more time. Yeah, so I think co-created, collaborated clarity that's well communicated is the new clever. And I have an old mentor, a Butte guy called Ron Graham lovely, lovely human, played rugby for Australia tough, tough bastard who was a business mentor, and he taught me that and I often think of that and if I look back at our learnings I'm going well, I reckon we were really clear on what we were doing. We communicated to a degree, but not as well as we probably could have. We weren't as clever as we could have been, but we were pretty smart but not cunning enough to be able to really buy everybody in. We were collaborated internally. So all the coaching staff, all the performance staff, we knew exactly what we were trying to achieve and our standards were high and the expectations were high. We knew that but we didn't let everybody else know that and so when the public or the people or the board was sitting there, what are you doing? We didn't bring them on as well as we could have. So I think the learnings come back to the learnings.
Speaker 1Newness and change will create risk. How do you minimise risk? You've got to work harder to bringing everybody on the journey and being aligned so they understand what you're trying to achieve. And if you don't meet that achievement, they go. Oh no, I knew what they were trying to do and they either got it right or they got it wrong, but I knew what they were trying to do. If they don't know what we're trying to do, there's that uncertainty creates anxiety and we lose their trust. It's as simple as that, yeah, but it's as complicated as that too.
Speaker 2And that is the art of all this like trying to get that balance between giving people certainty and knowing when and how to deliver. That is kind of yeah.
Speaker 1I mean, I will say about that Eddie had a vision and he was really clear on what he wanted to do. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2Now, webby, I'd love your opinion on this From your point where you stand in teams, where you're watching that bigger picture in terms of the cultural piece. What happens in teams that you've been associated with when losing happens and where does that take, what have you seen it do to coaches particularly, and the values and the cultures of teams when the losing starts happening, which will always happen in teams, and where does that stress come from? What happens to that stress and what have you seen coaches do both?
Speaker 2good and bad when losing becomes a part of the environment.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know, it's a great point, mate, and it happens to us all, right, Because that's a cyclical nature of what we do as a profession. And it comes back to this you know, culture or environment or visions look great in the sunshine. Will it stand up in the rain? Coming back to that point, and when you lose, it starts raining, and it starts raining hard. And so do we stick to the plan? Do we stick to the alignment? Do we make sure that we're buying everybody in? Now we can make adjustments along the way, and great coaches will do that. Great coaches will have a vision and go, oh, that's not quite working, let's just tinker with this a little bit. Buy will do that. Great coaches will have a vision and go, oh, that's not quite working.
Speaker 2Let's just tinker with this a little bit, buy everybody into that so we're aligned again and we go again. And is that something those elite coaches you've worked with have all done and had that ability to adapt and be flexible, even being pretty certain in their plan that they've all had the ability to adapt and haven't just stuck to one way of doing things?
Speaker 1Key principles I don't think they'll move much on, but the peripheral areas that affect those key principles they will. Where I think sometimes leaders and coaches fall down is and we'll run out of time is that they don't communicate that well enough broadly and sometimes internally. And so if we need to make all of some free losses on the road, everybody's starting to question things. Uncertainty breeds anxiety. We've got to come back and say listen, giles, this worked and this didn't. We're going to make these changes. Bear with us and let's see how that goes. And great coaches always will be accountable. They're happy to be accountable. They wouldn't do it if they weren't. They love it. They love people saying to them that wasn't good enough. No, that's fine, I'll wear that.
Speaker 2Pay me out, but I'll wear it. Make sure the wording's all good in the contracts. But you're writing the contracts with it Well, but I got some great advice once when they said mate first you've got to show.
Speaker 1It's your termination clause.
Speaker 2So you're always rewriting your own ones as a hefty payout, should things end awry 100%.
Speaker 1So I think you know you're only as good as your people around you and in the internal environment you often hear, oh no, teams stay tight, they stay tight. Well, they do, and that's important. But making sure that the people, the key stakeholders around you also know that's pretty important. Sometimes we forget about that. Yes, you know, you're on tour to the UK. You've lost three in a row.
Speaker 1The board is sitting home in a different time zone talking to their mates. They're going shit. What are we going to do about it? How you know, this is what we do. We've got to get on the phone during the middle of the night over there and we're going to say, hey, this went well for us, these are the changes we're going to make, just so you know. So that when they do have a coffee with their workmate, they go. I spoke to Webby last night and they're going to do this, this and this. All of a sudden. You've brought them in, but if you don't do that, they go to work and go. Oh, they're shit. What are they going to do? And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2And so I think, mate, your job isn't it? Because when a coach is in that zone, you will have seen it where just it's hard for a coach. When you just focus on that, in between the paint on the field, they get in that coaches in any level get in that sort of coaching zone where it's very narrow, focused, Just want the catch pass or the score to try. Part of your role is to actually be able to snap them out of it a little bit and just say whoa, just, you might need to have a conversation to that bloke, or she needs a bit of a hug around the shoulder because she's.
Speaker 1That's it. It's just facilitating an observation and providing that observation. So, just so you know, we're coming under a bit of heat here. How would you like me to deal with that? Do you want to do that? What do you want me to do?
Speaker 1Nine times out of 10, they're going to go, mate, tell them this you do. Or tell them to get on that bike. You know, whatever that is, I won't do that, but I will say this is what we're trying to do. So again, mate, I see our role as taking pressure off, not adding it, and so where it's important, in those pressure times, we'll say listen. I think we need to think about this. And one thing that I've learned and not real coaches like it mate, you've got to ask how they are, because no one asks. Everyone texts you when you win, no one texts you when you lose, and no one goes to Eddie Jones or John Connolly or David and goes mate, are you all right? Any organ, how are you going? Usually, you tell them mate, you can wash my undies for me or something like that, but no one else is asking those questions. That's right.
Speaker 2So that's a big part of your role, and it's not just your role, it's somebody's role like to keep checking in as part of a team in general right.
Speaker 1Well, you know, we constantly say what we do in our environment is people, yet the leader doesn't get treated like a person.
Speaker 2I had a lovely example of that with you a while back when I reacted in a way after a game. We had a close loss and oh sorry, it wasn't a loss, it was a close win which we probably should have won by more. Yeah, and I was disappointed and I said some snappy words in the change room afterwards and as we left I was like that didn't feel the way I wanted it to feel. Who wasn't playing just came up to me and he said are you all right, coach? Yeah, and it was just that one little statement that he said just. I was like, oh, thanks, mate, I appreciate it. I sent him a text that night and just said appreciate that small words sometimes go a long way. And he wrote back just saying regardless if I'm playing or not, I got you. And for me that was just that confirmation that the culture was in the right place. And then the fact that a player had the I don't know if it's your respect or status enough to actually say that to the head coach was a phenomenal statement.
Speaker 1I think it is the way it made me feel improved my coaching because it snapped me out of this bubble Absolutely, and I think most coaches aren't going to ask. They're not going to ask, mate, I'm alright, you sort your own shit out, stop bothering me. But they'll reflect on it like you did.
Speaker 2Do you think that's a skill set of modern coaching, where you actually have to be a little bit more open and vulnerable compared to a coach of 20 years ago? Do you think that's?
Speaker 1changed, I do think, because your players and your personnel expect that of you now. Well, they're allowed to be vulnerable In our day. When we played, we weren't.
Speaker 2Now you are the howling scrub turkeys did not like when someone said I'm not feeling great emotionally today, yeah right, well, you get it. And so they never, you know. When you said I'm not feeling great emotionally today, yeah right, well, you get it. And so they never, you know.
Speaker 1When you played, they were a time where someone actually said mate, are you okay? How do you feel today? Would you like to talk about that? Just mate, put your boots on and get out there. If you don't like it, you can go on.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. Do you think, like what I also get with this is for a lot of probably the generation where we grew up in and probably you're a dash older than me you need to get over that sentiment you grew up with? I'll certainly let that go, because my father was like has never seen him cry and all that stuff, all that uber manly stuff of generations gone by and I grew up with that and had to let that side of things go a little bit in order to be a better coach. Do you think that's important for modern coaches? It?
The Power of Organizational Culture
Speaker 1has to be, because if you want to be current, this is the way society is now. Once you come back to Andy Jones or Dave Rennie, these guys and Steve Hansen these guys are masters at sitting in a room. Now Eddie Jones would have been yelled at by his club coach or whatever got to do this work hard. If he applied that now, he wouldn't last, and so he has to change. And Dave Rennie and these folks sit down and go boys, tell me how you feel, tell me what we need to do today, and it doesn't have to be about rugby, and so the modern and coach why not rugby?
Speaker 2What's the point to that?
Speaker 1Because I think external things that are going on around you can have a direct impact on the day-to-day, and that is society today. And if you're in a good headspace and you're well-prepared, then your execution or you've followed your process, then your execution is likely to be pretty good. If you're not in good headspace, you're not well-prepared, there's other distractions. How can you focus on getting your job done?
Speaker 1And, as we know, in sport an individual person might have three or four key roles and he might have to do that 10, 20 times in a go, which is not a lot really if you think about the whole week. And so the expectations on us and the people watching telly is that those times that he has to do that role, he has to do that 10 out of 10. And we'll forgive him if he doesn't. But if he's in the right space and well prepared to do that, then he's performed better. And our role is to facilitate that environment for them. And if breaking up with your girlfriend or didn't like how you spoke to someone is affecting that headspace, then we've got to get better at helping them with that. That's all right. These things happen. Close that loop Bank that Come back to our process around execution. Let's get the job done.
Speaker 2And that is, in a nutshell, what culture is, isn't it? It's that environment that surrounds someone.
Speaker 1Yeah, culture's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2Well, here let's go straight to that.
Speaker 1Wevy what is your definition of culture. Well, I think culture to me is and you can Google the definition of culture and then you can put that to different environments, and I've thought about this over 25 years and spoken to you can Google the definition of culture and then you can put that to different environments, and I've thought about this over 25 years and spoken to lots of different people. But the definition that keeps ringing back to me is it's the way we do things around here, and one thing I notice, one thing about culture is there's no right or wrong way. It's not good, it's not bad, it's not wrong way. It's not good, it's not bad, it's not binary, but it's not complicated. It's so grey, but it's extremely sensitive and it's extremely environment.
Speaker 1It can be really strong at times too, but it can break down as soon. As you know, it can take 150 years to build a culture or six months to build a culture. It can be lost with one minute or one decision Not good or bad, just a decision or something that happens that changes everything. Now the strength in the culture is will it get through that? Come back to rain versus sunshine. If it stands up in the rain, that's a strong culture versus sunshine. If it stands up in the rain, that's a strong culture. If it only is good and looks good in the sunshine, then it's going to be viable, and is that?
Speaker 2taking that example a dash further, we know in any environment there will be all sorts of weather and the weather will pass and how you are post, the rain is essentially how strong the culture is.
Speaker 1Well, it's interesting. You talk about weather. Come back to a middle analogy Always together, no matter the weather. You know what I mean I do. And so when we talk about culture for come back to the way we do things around here connection and belonging drives culture. And so if you come, you know us by nature. As humans, we want to spend time together. Here we are looking at the beach, there are fair mills, everywhere. Belonging and connection is so critical to how we run our daily lives and how we operate. So culture has to come back to that, has to come back to how are we connected as a group and do we feel part of that group? Do we feel we belong as part of that group? And that's a stronger culture.
Speaker 1But once again, mate, culture is a war of opposites. It's not good, it's not bad, it's not right, it's not wrong, it's not binary, it's not complicated, it's not simple, it's not binary, it's not complicated, it's not simple, it's not complex. It's this melting pot of everything that can change at any point in time. But if our connection and our belonging is strong, then it could get through. It should get through the rain, gee I love that.
Speaker 2That's a different way of thinking, mate.
Speaker 1That's a powerful, powerful way of seaming there and I think people might hear that and cringe, but deep down, if they think about that, they go excellent.
Speaker 2I think you're right, mate. Like I think that statement culture has to come back to our daily lives. Like for me, that's bang on and I think life is a war of opposites as well Ups and downs, goods and bads, all that stuff and it's really just transporting daily life into daily 40 or daily teams or daily business, whatever that is.
Speaker 1It's the transition. If you, if you walk into any environment and you feel good about that, then it is likely that you're going to perform better, don't matter what. You walk into a coffee shop and the lady's smiling, then the chances are you're going to enjoy that.
Speaker 2You know.
Speaker 1But if she says you know you're taking too much time. Pay your money Webby. Stop trying. That's it. Your car didn't work, you did it. And then oh, it didn't taste as good as it could have and you've walked away and gone. Well, that wasn't as good as I thought it would be, but you walk into any environment that has a culture that's welcoming, feels as though you can connect to it and you belong there. You're going to walk away with a positive experience.
Speaker 2Mate. I love that, Webby. What a pleasure. What a pleasure. We're sitting here at the beach on a barbecue table with cockatoos chirping in the background, kids playing ball out there.
Speaker 1There's some paddle boarders out, it's a magical scene to be chatting about. You know how lucky are we, mate, and not everyone gets this opportunity. Correct, do you know what I mean? I do? And so, yeah, you have to take it. And if you and I sit here and go, we don't embrace that, then we're not being as true to us as we could be.
Fostering Individual Growth in Rugby
Speaker 2I think, mate. I agree, webby. I will chop this short after this. One last question yes, mate, because I've really enjoyed your time, mate, and I could sit here for a lot longer. The question is with your experience, everything you've gone through in a number of years at the highest level rugby and equestrian is there something that you would say about cultures and and sport which you think the bulk of your peers would disagree with? Have you got a statement or, uh, something that is underneath which you think is worth sharing but you would think that you might get some pushback on it? Is there anything like that?
Speaker 1Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I think my opinion and my experience tells me the most important thing is the people. If you don't get the people management right and that's not a general one-size-fits-all, that is individual time spent, then I don't believe the chances of you succeeding are high. Whilst I think a lot of people would say so. Take a question, for example I think the most important thing is sitting down with the riders and helping them understand, and you trying to understand what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1Whilst most equestrian coaches, there's nothing to do with that. Got to train the horse to do this, this and this, and the rider has to do this. It's got nothing to do with that. Got to train the horse to do this, this and this, and the right ass to do this Got nothing to do with the people. And it's the same with rugby to a degree. People are really important. They say, well, if you don't even give me a scrum right, well, we don't win in the scrum. I'm going. Well, we might never have a scrum right, but I'm not saying be softer. I'm saying hold them to account. But in order to hold the human account, you have to touch with them emotionally as well. And so I think the most important thing for me, and that's probably why I've been lucky enough. I can not cut my pace, but I can put my principles of people management to equestrian, to rugby, to any environment, and I think I'll be successful.
Speaker 2I agree with you.
Speaker 1And a lot of people might say mate, you know I used to cop this all the time. What can the rugby boat tell us? Horse people I tell you how to be people. Still the same. Horse people, people, still people. And I reckon we got more out of helping the individual understand what they can achieve as opposed to them being better horse riders.
Speaker 2Was that your big takeaway?
Speaker 1I can help you not be a better person, but let's facilitate an environment where you can be the best you possibly can be as a human and as a professional athlete. If we just focus on the technical aspects of what you do, I don't think we'll be as successful as we probably are. Man, you've been in plenty of environments where good teams win because they are committed as humans.
Speaker 2I agree, we will call it a day there my friend.
Speaker 1It's been what a champion.
Speaker 2I've written down two pages worth of notes here, mate, and my writing is as messy as my third form teacher at school said it would be. But what a pleasure, mate. It's always great to catch up and I've really enjoyed doing this, outdoors, over a barbecue table, having a coffee.
Speaker 1Fantastic mate Loved it. I appreciate your time and, as you said, mate, we can do this all day and that's great Good on you, legend. And that's great Good on you, legend.
Speaker 2Here's three takeaways from a conversation with Chris Webb on a barbecue table at Balmoral Beach.
Speaker 1In his words, If you think about our industry, one way of phrasing it is we're in the caring industry and those blokes are genuine carers. What I've learned is that it doesn't matter whether it's a horse or a hockey stick or a rugby ball or whatever it is. It's about the people, and the bits that I learnt is that interpersonal sensitivity of certain coaches when they get it right and they get it wrong. Things that are going on around you can have a direct impact on the day-to-day, and that is society today. If you want to be current, this is the way society is now.