Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Matt Cockbain: The Head Coach Coaches the Head.
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
A masterclass in coaching philosophy with former Wallaby forward Matt Cockbain who unpacks the delicate art and science of building championship cultures across continents. Drawing from 15 years of professional coaching experience spanning Australia, Japan, and international rugby, Cobain shares profound insights about leadership that transcends technical skills.
"The head coach coaches the head" emerges as a powerful central theme throughout our conversation. Matt reveals how mental preparation forms the cornerwork of elite performance, sharing personal techniques like writing down specific game tasks and action words that helped define his playing career – techniques he now passes on to his athletes. This approach to visualization and mental rehearsal creates resilient competitors prepared to perform under pressure.
We explore the fascinating concept of "planting seeds" – a leadership approach where coaches strategically introduce ideas in ways that allow players to feel ownership. Rather than dictating changes, skilled coaches present concepts to key team leaders who then spread these ideas throughout the squad. As Matt explains, "When it's your idea, you're more likely to commit to it."
The discussion challenges conventional thinking about team dynamics. While many coaching programs emphasize developing leadership across the entire squad, Matt takes a nuanced view, acknowledging that not every player needs to be a vocal leader. Some contribute best by consistently performing their role, creating the necessary balance between natural leaders and reliable role players.
Whether you're coaching elite athletes or developing young talent, this episode offers practical strategies for navigating team dynamics, building mental resilience, and fostering genuine buy-in. Join us for a thoughtful exploration of coaching as both science and art – where preparation meets passion, and leadership meets empathy.
Have you used any mental preparation techniques with your team? Share your experience in the comments or reach out on social media – we'd love to hear what works for you!
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Your head coach, you coach the head. Oh, I haven't heard that phrase before, matty. I think I heard it from someone, but I can't. I'll take credit for it. Mate, take that one. That's a goal. The head coach coaches the head. It's a vetting process, isn't it? You've got to vet your candidates and your pick, you know, it's not just on talent and rugby ability, it's about you know how they fit in there as well. Even though it was wet and windy for most of the games, it was still a great experience and the boys, I think you know, put their best foot forward. There's certain things over there that you just know I'm gonna give that up. There's certain things over there that you just know I'm going to give that up because it's not worth your time to fight. That you know. When you're young and come up into that environment, that professional grade, I guess there's so much happening and so much to learn quickly that it does take time for that stuff to bed in.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Matt Cobain, a former Wallaby forward whose international pedigree now shapes his coaching philosophy. He's been a professional rugby coach for 15 years. He started his trade with the Rebels Academy, moved on to the Junior Wallabies and then Fijian assistant coach as their forward coach. He then went and spent a huge amount of time in Japan, ultimately cultivating as the head coach of the Docomo team. He's got a wealth of cultural and coaching perspective. I look forward to diving in. Can you just give us a little update about your coaching journey to date, because when you're offshore it's often you sort of get left in that anonymous world of coaching. So, matt, what's been your journey over the last 10 years or so? Yeah, I guess. Obviously I've been coaching professionally for 15 years now.
Speaker 1:Then I finished playing back in sort of 2007 with the Rebels and the ARC in that national competition that finished up and I did a little bit of work back in the obviously the community and my old job around sort of construction management and drafting and civil engineering areas and I was coaching Melbourne Uni actually at the community level and sort of getting down to Melbourne Uni fields on a cold night in June was a challenge at times, particularly when you only get six players, but you had to think on your feet there in terms of if you had any coaching plan, you had to adjust pretty quickly. And then from there, obviously, the Melbourne Rebels came along in Super Rugby and I was lucky enough to secure a role as the academy coach that first year. So the academy was a bit of an academy coach role as well as an ambassador role. Obviously, being a former Wallaby, there's not too many former Wallabys based out of Melbourne. So my job was basically to get out there and connect with the schools that did play rugby but also, more importantly, try and open up a few other schools so that we get more kids in the game in Melbourne area. So that was good fun.
Speaker 1:And then from there I went to Melbourne Rebels assistant coach as a forwards coach for three years until 2014. Had a bit of time with the test team, the Fijian test team. I did a northern tour with them at the back end of 2014. Had a bit of time with the test team, the Fijian test team. I did a northern tour with them at the back end of 2014. And that was really special in terms of, I guess, the camaraderie that those young players displayed towards one another. As Fijians you know very a lot of them, men of faith and they had the lotto every evening where they get down and they pray together, and so it was a great experience for me and they were very welcoming of me as a foreigner. Obviously there's a few guys in there like Nemanja Ndolo, kempisi Mafu, who you spoke with a fairly thick Australian accent, which was not what I expected. But, yeah, just a great bunch of fellows and they were so appreciative of your time and input into them. They were very, you know, humble and it was a really nice environment to be a part of. Yet when they get on the field they're almost like madmen in terms of the way that they play rugby. They're very tough and hard players and obviously very skillful as well. So that was an excellent experience.
Speaker 1:From there, I took a job up in Japan and that's where I've been sort of seven of the past 10 years and at different clubs up there. So I took out a Shockey it was my first club up there, being in a senior assistant role Moved to Rico as a forwards coach, but head coach there for two years. Came back to Australia and had two years at the Waratahs during COVID, which was, you know, some challenging, difficult times as most of the world was going through 2020 and 2021. And after that I headed back up and linked up with Rob Penny again at NTT, shining Arcs, which is now the D-Rocks in Japan, and there was a reorganization of the two company teams that they had in the top league up there two NTT teams Shining Arcs and Docomo and I was offered the coach of to be the head coach of Docomo for the last couple of years and, yeah, really enjoyed that process of taking a new team that had been, I guess, put down to the third division because they lost all their players and obviously with the reorganisation it was a reset of the competitions up there and to reignite, I guess, them on the path to regain second div into first div. Hopefully that was the goal and they've started well again this year and good luck to them.
Speaker 1:And then I came back after my couple of years there and had a really great time with the under-20s the junior holidays at the Rugby World Cup that they played the Rugby World Cup under-20s tournament in Cape Town in the middle of last year and really enjoyed that Coaching with an old teammate, nathan Gray, who was the head coach. Ben Moen was along as an assistant coach, also Shannon Fraser from the Waratahs Academy. We had a nice little core coaching group there and it was a great experience, even though it was wet and windy. But most of the games it was still a great experience and the boys, I think, put their best foot forward and I think we finished six out of 12. But we were down a game against Ireland there, which was disappointing because we felt like we were probably a top four team for that tournament. Yeah, but you know, you can only sort of play the cards you're dealt there, I guess.
Speaker 1:Well, mate, you you just read that back you've actually had a really diverse coaching experience over the last 15 years. Right, you haven't been in one place. You've actually gone to different places, had little experiences, and I think that's amazing. I'm really interested to know how you've found the cultural differences, because when you go at one team for a long period of time, you learn about one way of doing things, but your experiences got dotted of different little tastes of a lot. What would you say is how you would define the important parts of culture from all those experiences that you've had?
Speaker 1:It's interesting because when you first go to a new place it's picking up on what's existing there and some clubs there's a lot there already and that's something that they've built over, say, a long time and they carry through and they almost recruit, I guess, their coaches and their players to suit that type of culture potentially. I think that's a smart way to to go about things. Um, at other clubs it's not so strong. So, in in terms, you've got to be able to, I guess, build a little bit on on on with with the playing group on what's there and then try and come up with a with with a, I guess, a point of difference that that we can really latch on to and carry forward. Do you think that's something which the a lot of good clubs do is that they actually pick on the cultural aspect, like they know who they are, they know who they want. Do you think that's a sign of a good team that they can pick like that? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:I think if you've got a set of values for a team whether it's respect excellence, you know. Whether it's, you know, respect excellence, you know, uh, adaptability, having, I think, uh, a coach and be a player that sort of, you know, displays or or encompasses those uh aspects I think is important to it, um, you know, potentially include them in your organization. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just. You know it's a fit. It's a round peg in a round hole and not a square peg in a round hole. That's right, and that's right. And it seems like just knowing the teams that have been successful, like the Crusaders, for example. They're big on picking the right person for the environment as a big factor in their thing.
Speaker 1:It's a vetting process, isn't it Like you've got to vet your candidates and you pick. You know it's not just on talent and rugby ability, it's about you know how they fit in there as well. How do you go about? You've been in some really different environments, such as the Fiji team to the various Japanese teams, where you actually don't get a say. You've turned up and you've basically got what you've been given. Yeah, what do you look for and what do you attempt to do in order to bring that environment to one thing? Good question A lot of it's a bit of gut feel and just having a lot of chats in and around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of it's a bit of gut feel and just having a lot of chats in and around. Yeah, you know training. I guess I'll feel like, maybe in the weights room, what's happening around the medical area, just kind of trying to get a feel for the place. Yeah, you know, I like to try and chat with every player, whether I'm a forwards coach, and just get through every forward and understand a little bit more about them. I think it's sort of good practice anyway for any new coach coming in. Yeah, but as a head coach, it's even more important to sort of understand maybe what's been there before, what we can keep and potentially what we may need to bin in order for the team to move forward. So it's probably not one or two things you can really put your finger on, but that's the process of the chat is to try and come up to a couple of things where you can hang your hat on. Okay, we're going to be really strong in this area. You know whether it's even simple, things like being on time and you know that type of discipline where you know we're working through our day and we're keeping on track and we're focused on every little moment. Yeah, it is amazing.
Speaker 1:What about the things with like for Japan, for example, like your language isn't up to like personal chat level, you're not able to crack gags and stuff. No, I order a coffee and and stuff. Order a coffee, yeah, a beer, a beer, futatsu beru, yeah, yeah, nagashimasu, first thing you learn. Yeah, how do you deal with those cultural restrictions? Again, I think it's just understanding that there are some differences there. You know, whether you know I mean, you know yourself, you've been there and that hierarchical in terms of age, with an older player and a younger player, and how that sort of works. Yep, I think it's important to know that. You know there's those kind of restrictions. Do you try? Just for those that don't know, there's a really hierarchical nature of age in Japan. So the senpai-konpai relationship is one where the senior person basically gets weighted on almost and a level of respect by the junior person.
Speaker 1:You, coming into that environment, what was your thoughts about it?
Speaker 1:And did you try? Because it's not the Australian way? So did you just say fine and be part of that and be treated that way for our juniors, or did you try resist it? No, I think I was probably pretty lucky in the teams I was in, possibly the first team, shockey. It was a bit more like that in terms of there was that real gap in a bit of a hierarchy sort of set up in how they did things there, sort of Rico and Shining Arcs and Docomo were all a little bit more, I guess, a flat structure.
Speaker 1:We had some young guys there, obviously, but they seemed to fit in quite well with the older guys and I didn't really notice too much of a difference there. Oh yeah, so I probably didn't have to address anything in that area. It was just fine, it could roll. It was pretty flat in terms of you know, like you had your captain who was 32 or whatever, and you had your first year or your second year coming out of uni and they still don't say much you. But that's, that's kind of young players in a ways, and they don't really have a lot of um, uh, input at times.
Speaker 1:Uh, I do remember actually, one example, uh, a guy called shuhei matsuhashi and, uh, he was a young planker that came to me second year at my second year at Ricoh Well, my first year at Ricoh, one of those two and I remember having a chat to him first year out. He came to me and he was a very focused individual. He said I want to be top league rookie of the year. I said, all right, yep, that's great. That's an excellent goal to have and I'm going to help you with that. And geez, he was great, like he just worked really hard, obviously a talented player in his own right, but he was a leader already. So he was almost I say leaders are made, not born, but he seemed to have you know that I guess aura about him and had a leadership quality from day dot at Biko and you know he went on to play Sunwolves, play for Japan, and he did achieve that Rookie of the Year, so it was a big sort of feather in his cap that he was able to, you know, state that, work towards it and achieve it.
Speaker 1:Do you get many guys coming to you with those sort of things in your environments from time to time and you sort of take it with a bit of a grain of salt because, okay, yeah, that's great, until you get to know them a little bit more and you say, yeah, well, you're actually, they've got the right stuff to be able to achieve this, and then you can work a bit harder towards getting that goal or achieving that goal. And yeah, a lot of players will say stuff like that and, yeah, you can believe it or you can't or you can go, but you try and help them all you know that's right, because that's an unusual thing in Japanese culture, isn't it? It is Particularly young players come forthright and say this is what I want, can you help, et cetera. But is that the same across the other spectrums you've been? Is it the same in Fiji? Is it the same with the junior wallabies across those different cultures? What have you found the differences between those?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess in Australia I mean, fiji was such a short time, it's probably hard to comment on there, but I'm sure, especially in this day and age, obviously with the Droua being around, and there's a real definite pathway for those guys now to the national team and they don't really have to leave home to do that. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's those types of players there that are up front and state their goal and again, I think it's all just individual. Like you know yourself, you get many different personalities that they'll be up front and they'll try to state what they want to do and then put it out there, but they don't deliver. And there's other guys that don't do that but they deliver. So it's a real mixed bag In Australia, I think. You know, I don't think it's one way or the other. Really Like it's just down to you know person to person, and how they've probably been brought up, more than anything in terms of their family life, and how they state goals and how they approach.
Speaker 1:You know different situations and stressful situations, potentially in a rugby match. I guess that leads me to your stresses and things as a coach, because a lot of people listening here are coaches. How has the stresses of you as a coach, like winning and losing being the obvious ones how has that affected you as a person, your coaching and examples of that? Have you had experiences where it's led you up and led you down? Oh yeah, all the time it's like you want to win, you want to win. You know that doesn't change.
Speaker 1:I think I can take losing if the performance is up to expectation. If we're beaten by a better side, so be it. But if we're underperforming, that's frustrating and that's where you've got to really put your thinking cap on and try and okay, what do we need to get better at? What are our big rocks we need to work on so that gives us the best chance to win next week? Or you take a bit of a longer-term approach and you work on stuff that, okay, maybe in six weeks' time we can get to that point, but we need to work on that for six weeks to be able to sort of get there. And sometimes you don't have that time as a coach, as you know. No, you don't right. And so it's a real head battle within yourself because you question yourself, right, you question do I keep doing this or do I change it?
Speaker 1:And I think for the most part, I'm pretty good at staying the course, but sometimes the team may need a shock or a circuit breaker or something like that, so you might come up with a different drill or a different way of displaying a game plan or a different way to message to the team to break things up and to try and eke out a bit more performance or a bit more, you know, get them all fighting in the right direction. Have you had experiences, like, have you got an example? Have you gone the wrong way around that head battle, where you've lost that head battle In terms of personal? Yeah, yeah, like, obviously the stresses are always sort of there and then you might lose a couple of games. Yeah, and you talked about the shock or the circuit breaker. Have you had moments where you've gone gee, I shouldn't. That probably wasn't the way to go.
Speaker 1:Well, I think the time at the Waratahs was pretty tough, like with COVID, and we had our first year there. We had good players. You know we had guys like Hoops and you know KV and Rob Simmons and you know a lot of sort of wallabies in the team that we didn't have a great start, yeah, and I think we were just kind of getting to understand Rob's this is Rob Penny, yeah and then like we had a new he was new, I was new and we had a new defence coach Chris Whittaker was there previously, yep and we started to, I think, make inroads into how we wanted to play and the style we wanted to play. But then COVID hit, so we lost a lot of those players because they took the opportunity to head overseas and, rightly so, earned some money over there, while everyone sort of sat on their hands back here and waited for the government to let us back on the training pitch, and so we had a very young team after that and then pairing it back, I guess, to try and keep it pretty basic, but be hard on the basics. I think yeah, was was what we tried to do, but we're a little bit outgunned, uh yeah. And then that's just only natural when you get. When you got, you know, like guys out of 20, like we had guys like jeremy williams just coming on the scene, uh, yep, max is now playing over in Japan and he's up at Wales now. So they were some of the young locks I had to try and sort of bring through that time and I'm sure they would have learned a lot through that period as well, because when you're young and come up into that environment, that professional grade, I guess, come up into that environment, that professional grade, I guess there's so much happening and so much to learn quickly that it does take time for that stuff to bed in.
Speaker 1:What's your philosophy on that? Because you just talked about trying to bed stuff in, but then, after a couple of losses, then your thoughts you said do I keep going with this or do I change? And I think that's a thing that a lot of coaches wrestle with Because the results are poor. Do I have the confidence to keep doing this? And what do you think is the balance between? When do you change? When do you go? Enough's enough, I've got to change. When's that point. I don't know, I don't know. I'll give you one example.
Speaker 1:So, again with the team, we had a pretty young team and we're coming up against good teams in super rugby and, in particular, mauling defence was a bit of an issue for us, right, and you know, maul defence is tough at the best of times. But you know, when you've got young guys that haven't maybe mauled a lot in their school-age career which probably tends to happen a little bit in Australia, because we like to use the ball and run we had to come up with some different strategies in the mall defence, so things like a two-man line-out where we don't commit and we force them to think about well, what are we going to do now? Or then chop that mall down, just come up with some different tactics, a variety that maybe just upset the momentum. So the game in question I'm thinking of is a game against the Brumbies at the Sydney Football no, it was Sydney Cricket Ground rather and we used this two-man line-out in and around sort of the middle of the field and they kind of they didn't really know what was happening, like in terms of the first time. We did it at least anyway, and I get one of our hookers. I think Dave Parecki was tasked with the job of chopping the legs out of under the catcher, and so that was a way that we were saying to them you know, we're throwing this at you, what are you going to do? And we did it a couple more times, but on our line we actually went back to our regular more defence and we actually defended really well. So I don't know if that got them thinking a little bit about their setup in terms of how hard they were going to go to maintain their feet and be able to potentially score points.
Speaker 1:But that's probably an example where you look at your group and you say, maybe okay, this week we need a change of tactics. We need, you know, this opposition's got a particular strength. How can we counteract that with the weapons that we've got? Yeah, and I think at the end of the day it probably turned out pretty well there. I mean, we got really close. We just missed out winning that game, but that particular tactic seemed to work pretty well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a fascinating one, isn't it Like to know we and how to do it? Do you think you have to again read your team about what you can and can't do and how much you can change in regard to that. Yeah, 100%, I think, with an older team. But it's funny, with an older, more experienced team, they're kind of set and they've got a style and the way they play anyway and it's like, okay, you think of South Africa, right? Everyone knows how they're going to play Really. Yeah, they're going to be brutal, they're going to be in your face and they say, well, we don't care, this is what we're doing. You've got to try and stop us. Yeah, right, that type of mentality.
Speaker 1:But I think and this is the good thing about, probably, rassi you know, like I used to play against Rassi he's a good player and you know, a player that was a bit different as well, and as a coach, he's proving that too. He's got certain things in their game from time to time that, oh shit, that's a surprise from them, like it might be a subtlety in their attack or a different defensive tactic that they'll bring out and surprise teams. And at that level you need all the help you can get, because it's not just about physicality. You've got to be smart with what you do as well, and sometimes very innovative. Yeah, and how do you sell that concept as a coach, because part of coaching is not just would already try and do this, try and make it seem like it's their idea. How does that look? Like it works?
Speaker 1:It does work, not all the time, but a lot of the time, if you can sort of plant seeds and it's a similar thing not only with players. So you're sort of planting seeds with players around and you might have a couple of key guys there that are really honest. You can be really honest with them and say, look, I want to do this. Can we sway the leadership group or the leaders in, say, the attack component of your game? So there's usually, you know, might be three or four players there. That sort of help the coach with the setup of the attack and the tactical picture for the week Yep, you know. Plant the seed with the setup of the attack and the tactical picture for the week Yep, you know, plant the seed with them and then they can take that forward and then spread that and, I guess, repeat message through the wider group Yep.
Speaker 1:But you can also use that, particularly in Japan, around managing up, you know, like in terms of, you know, dealing with GMs and Kentucky's about, if you give them time around making decisions. Quite often they'll be on board with the way you think. There's certain things over there that you just know. I'm going to give that up because it's not worth your time to fight that battle. So I think if you can pick your battle and be targeted but at the same time plant seeds around how you want things done or requests of you know what you need, then they're quite open to sort of coming on board. You know. They just need the time to consider it.
Speaker 1:I just found, anyway, with those experiences, I agree, when you were talking about planting seeds and stuff, I had this thought in my head around an analogy around as a leader, as the head coach, you're almost essentially the plant shop owner. You own the shop and then your leaders are your staff and you're selling them the way to then sell products to the customers. Yeah, yeah, and they're essentially the seed. They're the ones delivering the seeds. You're sending the big ideas in to the key people. They're watering it Bit of fertilizer, yeah, making sure they're happy. That's right, mate.
Speaker 1:Do you have any ways of choosing who those leaders are? Or how do you identify that part of teams? Is it inherent In terms from a playing group. Yeah, like you've gone into teams. You don't know anyone. How do you work out, right? Who are my staff out of these? Who are the leaders here? Yeah, I will certainly get counsel from my assistants and maybe the team manager or those types of people that have maybe been there a bit longer than I have and they've got a certain view, but also it's just again, it's the conversations and communication. At the end of the day, it's a people business. It's the people that make the difference and you've got to get to know the people to be able to get the best out of them. So I think that, but, at its core, that's what it is for me.
Speaker 1:And you know the example I said earlier about Ushuhei Matsuhashi, about wanting to be, you know, rookie of the Year, like him. Saying that to me was him displaying a bit of leadership and taking ownership of where he wanted to go, and you'll always have a few of those players in your team. And did he stand out? Do you sort of go? That's the sort of guy that I would like all of these players to sort of be like. Yes, very coachable, very coachable. Then you're like right, he's the exemplar of what I think is important and then he became captain right, he did eventually Eventually became. He was sort of someone you targeted because of that what he displayed, you went that's what I want, that's what I'll go with. Yeah, he was. Yeah, exactly, you hit it on the head.
Speaker 1:It's those types of players you'd like everyone to be like that. Everyone's not going to be like that. Some players don't want to be leaders and they just want to be told what to do. What do you do with those bikes? Are they important to a team Mate? I think they're good. It takes all sorts. As I said, it's a people business. You're going to have all sorts of people in there and they've still got a really important role to fill. You know, like, whether it's sometimes you call them the glue of the team, because they just get up and they do their job and they're happy to be to sit in the middle and if the team's successful, they share in that, and that's I mean.
Speaker 1:One of the things I think about when I played and lucky enough to play in some great teams was how, if you know, I knew if I made a good tackle or, you know, cleaned out in the game. That was, you know, had a cleaned out in the game. That was, you know, had a big clean out in the game or something like that, where it was crucial. You get those slaps on the backs, you know and, yeah, well done, well done, good on you and that's a big part of why I played, you know, like it was just the mateship of it and being able to. You know, have those guys around you and pumping you up because you wanted to do more to. You know, have those guys around you and pumping you up because you wanted to do more. Then you know that's how I felt out there.
Speaker 1:I think you know you look at some of the obviously you've been coaching juniors recently with yourself as well and, like some of those guys, you can sort of see that they crave, that. You know that. I guess praise in a way, isn't it? Yeah Well, I think that's a cool. What you just said there around your motivation was just that the feedback of the pats on your back, your mateship and stuff, and it's sort of something about the leadership aspect which is interesting, because not everyone wants to be a leader. There's some players in the team that you know, like Shuhei, like you talked about. He was a guy who went. He's destined for leadership. But you also get the others in the team who shy away and don't really want it. They just want to get on with their job and do it to the best of their ability and they're just happy with one of their mates going great work mate, great steal or great tackle.
Speaker 1:And how do you do you have? Because there's a push now in modern coaching to drive a lot more conversation around leadership and growth. Do you think it's a one-size-fits-all for everybody in terms of pushing leadership? No, definitely not. I think it's again, it's targeted. It's like anything People are all shapes and sizes, thoughts, different perspectives. I think the sooner you sort of understand that everyone's got a slightly different way that they look at the world, you know, the happier you'll be in your own self, because you're not going to be able to get everyone to do what you want, you know. But finding a way to tap into them and giving them a reason is part of the art of the coach.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of science in our game, but there's a hell of a lot of art left in it. And gut feel, would you say. The science is like your technical pieces of the game, like how to jump correctly. Yeah, I mean, I guess you put that in the science bucket. Obviously there's sports science as well. What's the art For you? When you say the art side, what does that look like? Or feel like? Probably a bit more around the emotional part of it, you know, like maybe your, why, why are you here? You know, why do you play your inspiration potentially, um, the intangible part, like you know, yeah, what gets you fired up. You know that that kind of it's probably mental a little bit, and then the mental side of it's a bit you know that that's probably slides over into the art side a bit more. I know there's certainly science behind it, but again, probably even more so than we talk about players and the difference in how they talk to the coach and with their goals and setting and all that. The mental side is even more widely varied in terms of how guys prepare.
Speaker 1:I know from my preparation as a player I was very much write two or three tasks down to get done on the game. I knew if I ticked those off and did them well, I would be happy with my game. The other thing I used to write down was a couple of action words, so it might be fast, it could be relentless. Those kind of embody, I guess, play the game, embodying those types of action words, so that relentless get up and go again, get up and go again. You'd understand that, being an open side flanker, mate, mate, I think it's a great little tool that potentially coaches can do around guiding their players just to reinforce a sentiment or a feeling or an emotion, because certainly when you write things down it sinks in. And then, when you talked about just writing them down over and over, do you encourage players to do that? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's about repetition, even from a drill perspective, and the Army used this process explanation, demonstration, reps, reps, reps, reps and it's the reason why the army uses it, you know, to drill their soldiers and the people who are involved in the army organization is that it works.
Speaker 1:You know we don't want an army that doesn't work or is not cohesive. So you know they drill things down and they repeat, repeat, repeat. And it's the same with if you've got that task list and those action words, you probably only write them down once, to be fair, but then you're probably reading them and then, after you've read them, they become ingrained in there and it's a repeat in there, and then the thing I think you can take it, the extra step is then visualize what that looks like, so whether it's night before game, on the bus, the way to the game, actually sort of picturing that in your own head, how that looks and how that feels for you. That's great, mate, like explanation, demonstration, reps, reps, reps.
Speaker 1:So when you're guiding players to write their thoughts down, do you explain this like this Yep, yep? In team environments? Certainly I'll put together, I guess, short presentations, and particularly with the Japanese, because they don't really get a lot of that, and also there are some Japanese, I guess, sports psychs over there, but it's hard to know what they're actually peddling. You don't want them maybe contradicting a message that you've brought forward previously, because you can't really understand. I mean, there's translation of it. Obviously we would get the translation of it, but from my perspective I was happy to sort of with enough experience behind me now to be able to put together something that I could teach them and give them some tools to be able to sort of deal with pressure, because at the end of the day, it's all about preparation, right? So you've got to prepare, prepare well to play well. That was, you know, one of our key phrases that we had in the last couple of years with the Red Hurricanes was we need to prepare well to play well. So all our preparation during the week whether it was training, whether it was off field was to get us in the best shape to play well on the weekend. So part of that process is getting your head right and then giving them the tools and, I guess, the know-how to be able to do that.
Speaker 1:Is an important role of a head coach. Your head coach, you coach the head. Oh, I haven't heard that phrase before, matty. I think I heard it from someone, but I can't. I'll take credit for it, mate. Take that one. That's a gold. The head coach coaches the head.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, and that goes really in line with what you're talking about. Just there, right, is there any like? Do you have to study that yourself? Or, like you talked about, sort of just the experience, do you feel like your experiences warrant you enough to talk about that stuff? I think so. Yeah, particularly in a rugby sense.
Speaker 1:You know like it's over the years, you have certain things that you learn, whether they're from senior players. I learned a lot from senior players. I was lucky enough to be coming in an age where I had John Eales. Learned from John Eales. Guys like David Wilson, you know, michael Foley was a good one, you know, and he turned in to be a coach as well, like just guys like that that were, you know, you watch them almost and just learn through osmosis, you know, you soak it in and you, I love it. I love it how you're continuing that plant seed analogy with more plant seed type analogies. What's the habitat? Is that a plant thing? Is it? That's the science of the game. Yeah, mate, that's the science coming out. So, yeah, I don't even know what osmosis is, but it's some sort of plant-based sunshine thing.
Speaker 1:But they had strategies, you know, and you had to, and sometimes you'd try stuff that they do and it wouldn't work for you. So you'd just, you'd try stuff that they do and it wouldn't work for you. So you'd just, you'd take a little bit from wherever. And it's a bit like when you're a coach, when you get, I guess, to our age and when you've been a coach, you take a little bit from coaches that have coached you, coaches that you've worked with, and you mix it all together and you have your own style and that's you being you. You know coaching the way that you want. You can't coach like how Eddie Jones coaches. You can't coach how Steve Hansen coaches. You want to coach how you coach and be yourself. Do you leave stuff out? Do you learn from some of the poor? You've obviously had a lot of coaches Do you leave bits when you have a poor coach? A coach does something. Yeah, there's a few times I've had learnings around what I wouldn't do, got a couple of examples.
Speaker 1:I think at times, just how you treat people, I think was a big thing for me. Like you know, I said before it's a people business and how you treat people is so important. I always have a saying that I'll treat people how I want to be treated and that's with respect and listen to, heard and valued. I guess I think that's really important. Like, with that in mind, when you're talking about being your authentic sort of you and taking the goods and the bads of your experiences, which for you has been huge, how would you sort of define your own leadership style, like what's important for you as a leader? Yep, yeah, I think I like a very flat structure. You know, like very flat structure. I want everyone in the organisation to be able to come to me directly and have their input. Obviously, at times that's not always practical, yeah, but I think, as I said, value and treat people how you want to be treated and treat people how you want to be treated, listening and really being, I guess, being empathetic to situations as well. So, yeah, I'd like to get as much information and input as I can and then we can move forward collectively with a decision. At times, that might mean you've got to make a tough decision too, so that's the hard part about being in a role like that. It might not be a decision that people like, but you know it's the right decision for the organization and if that's the foremost thing in your mind around, what's the best thing for the group. I think if you have that, as you're overriding, I guess, feeling or overriding factor in decision-making, then you'll be on the right track. It's really interesting.
Speaker 1:You talked about Justin. You talked about the importance of empathy, and I think that's particularly relevant in modern coaching, where it seems to be a word that's used a lot in order to connect with modern players. However, I think it's also important you also mentioned, you're still going to be able to make hard decisions. So a lot of times people associate empathy with being gentle and not rocking the boat and that side of things, but that's not actually true, is it? No? In a coaching role, you've got to have empathy, but you've also still got to have that hard element to make the calls which are needed to be made. Is that how you feel about it? Yep, yeah, definitely. I think in the moment you know if you're making that hard decision, it's always good to.
Speaker 1:I think if it affects a couple of people, or maybe it affects a few more people or whatever, is to get around those people later and then like put your arm around them and actually sort of make sure you reconnect and not that the relationship's damaged, but just maybe repair a little bit and say, look, this is why we're doing it. These are the key reasons and you know it's the best thing for us. I'm sorry it maybe affected you, but like we're going to move forward with this, would you say the word sorry? I guess it's just a situational dependent. I think again, yeah, and the individual dependent, individual dependent yeah, becauseational dependent. I think again, yeah, and the individual dependent, individual dependent, yeah, because, again, they're all different and whilst we all want to be treated equally, in reality that doesn't really happen.
Speaker 1:Because you've got to understand the weak points maybe in a person or a player's psyche and be able to sort of manage that and build it up Potentially like Eddie was quite good at this, like Eddie's, known for his hard edge, and you know he has that, you know, three-factor for want of a better word and I've coached Eddie's, coached me, and I've worked with Eddie a long time ago at the Reds and yeah, he pushes people hard but he's very good at then going to them and then building them back up, you know. So I think that break them down, build them back up process actually strengthens it's like a muscle, isn't it? Yeah, you know, like you work out to break your muscle down and then you give it recovery time to build it back up. And that's kind of what I'm talking about with potentially, I guess a relationship is. You might be hard on that relationship at the time but ultimately that's going to make the person better and stronger if they can see the point of view and you can repair any damage that potentially is caused. Damage is probably a harsh word for that it's not really the damage. They've got to be able to see that it's good for them in the long run. I guess, yes, and that's a skill set of being able to show someone the benefit of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was there anything specifically you referred to Eddie there but anything he did particularly well? I know you said he went and rebuilt it. Was there any things you saw and took note of and went? I like what he's done there, yeah, yeah, I think just the ability just to sort of really connect with a player. And again, like he didn't connect with everyone, we don't connect with everyone, that's the reality of the situation. But yeah, you know he has a care, like good coaches care about, you know, the people that they've got in their team. And ultimately he does care. And you know, I know he's copped a fair bit over the. He certainly has, and I'm not making excuses for that, but I'm just sort of, I guess, talking about my experience and how I saw him when I played there and then worked with him for that year, and then that was a long time ago as well.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and again, like Rod McQueen was a different coach, again, rod McQueen was a great big picture guy. He was huge on, you know, giving us the best opportunity again, like what's best for the playing group, what do we need to do, what do we need to do? And he had a great bunch of assistants and support team around him that were just on the same page. And you know, I don't think it's any secret that we were really successful through that period because we had he treated it like a business and he was very good at sort of setting the scene and us able to see that big picture and play our part in it. I like that phrase yeah, showed you the big picture and you understood your part in it. Yeah, it's fascinating, mate, just those examples.
Speaker 1:And one bit I thought was an interesting one where you said everyone wants to be treated equal and I think that is a belief. But I remember having these conversations just a couple of weeks ago with my kids and then my youngest going why does he get to stay up? And I don't, why can't I be the same? And then when I put it to him I was like, mate, do you want to be treated the same as your brother? He's like, yeah, and do you want me to treat you the same as your sister as well. And he's like, yeah, and what about your younger sister? Do you want to be treated the same as her as well? And he's like, no, You've confused him. Yeah, and he was just like so, older brother, but you don't want to be treated like your younger brother? Yeah, like the younger sister. And it was like just that kind of realization. They're explaining the why, like you talked about, and shedding a different light on things, and the care is there which you talk about. But that's yeah. Yeah, I just thought that was an interesting one to bring up around it.
Speaker 1:Any team people aren't equal and we actually don't want everyone to be equal, because everyone's different. If you're blanket banning everybody, then you're not treating people as their individual selves, and it's, I feel like that's the art of coaching you talk about to, to, to get the right tone and the right balance for that person compared to that person. Yep, cause, some people need the hug, some people need the stick. It's all different. If we're giving everyone the stick or the hug, you're not going to get the best out of everyone. No, totally agree, mate, totally agree. Awesome, hey, mate.
Speaker 1:So if you, if I had to look back, if you had to look back now with 15 years professional coaching under your belt and you have to give a little, one piece of advice to up and coming coaches, and particularly for you that's come out of an extensive playing career and transition into coaching, what would you say would be something? That this is what I'd give, a little bit of advice to a young coach coming through. Yeah, I'd say I think I spoke about it already. Be yourself first. Don't try and copy too much Yep and copy too much Yep Obviously. Do your professional development and talk to experienced coaches. Just coach yourself to figure out what you want to take with you forward. I think that's probably my biggest sort of learning. I think that's probably my biggest sort of learning.
Speaker 1:It's sort of second year at the Rebels, so my first year as assistant coach. There, Damien Hill was the head coach. He gave me a good piece of advice at the time. He said, coach, like you played, all he was saying there is you don't have to do too much different because you just bring on that passion that you had for playing into your coaching and that helped me a bit at the time, because it's hard when you first transition to coaching.
Speaker 1:If you've been playing for a while. Sometimes you're coaching players you played with. Yeah, it's tough, right, that's right. I didn't really have any of that. I think I'd played against a few guys at the Rebels, like in that ARC comp, but not many, so I didn't really have to deal with that. But you've still got to learn how to cut that off kind of thing. And right, I'm focused on the coaching side of it now.
Speaker 1:So I guess for young coaches who have come out of playing, it's just trying to sort of make that cut, which is tough, because I still want to play footy, do you really? But I can't. Are your metal hips up to that, mate? Far out, my hip won't be, so I'll stick to riding the mountain bike there, and that's how I get my contact is by falling off my mountain bike these days. Yeah, yeah, mate, that's actually funny that you should say that you still want to play with what you've put your body through and how it's feeling now. Well, it's the feeling again. You go back to it. It's the feeling of being in a team environment and there's nothing like it, really Like it's when you've got those guys around, and particularly if you can get some success going and generate some energy. It's a really good feeling and it's just good for your mental health too. You know like to have those people around and you know guys you can rely on. They got your back, mate. Couldn't agree more, mate, it's a wonderful sport for that.
Speaker 1:I love that phrase you just mentioned about coaching yourself as well. Like, I think, when you take up the coaching, you sort of beat yourself up a lot too around what you do and don't know. But it's like you're playing. If you're passionate and you just keep pursuing it and be like your advice, I'd imagine to a player that's beating themselves up would just be hey, hey, be like you. Or your advice I'd imagine to a player that's beating themselves up would just be hey, just take your, just chill, chill. And I think that's a good piece of advice for coaches too, because there's enough stress in the job without you adding more to it. Right, yeah, exactly, awesome, maddie. Hey, look, mate.
Speaker 1:We'll finish off with this one last question, which is an interesting question I've been asking a number of people is this the hardest question? This is the the hardest question I've got, and it's a weird question. That's why I like it. The question is what's one belief you hold about that you believe in, about coaching in any aspect doesn't have to be technical that you think a lot of your peers would potentially disagree with. Yeah, I saw this question there and it got me thinking. I don't know whether I've got an answer yet, because there's so many different views out there. A belief yeah, it's a tough one, mate, because the game can be played in so many different ways and and um, and you know, you gotta, you gotta, come up with a way that suits your profile of your team and and so there's many different. You know beliefs and systems in there. I just don't know if I can put my finger on one that no one else believes. You know what I mean. So, yeah, yeah, I might have to. You might have to come back and on round two of the podcast and I'll come up with an answer for you. But off the top of my head it's it's well, I could have you got one. Well, I'll tell you what, mate, I've got a. I've got a thinking process.
Speaker 1:It's like we, as rugby, you sort of adopt whatever's been done before, yep. So, for example, where I've grown up with in amateur rugby, you train Tuesday, thursday nights, play on a Saturday, and throughout New Zealand that is the norm and that's just become what it is. And then I remember trying to shift the training days to a Monday Wednesday and it was like, oh man, we can't do that, it's like a day after a game. And then once you just put it in, you realize it can be done and just because that was the norm. I remember also when I got to Leicester and I'd been raised in super rugby environments in New Zealand and when I got to Leicester their mentality was I always thought on a Monday it's a light recovery jog through day and that was the norm. And I think it's a norm in Australasia.
Speaker 1:But in Leicester we did a massive weight day Monday morning, like it was full bore. And when I got there I was like we can't do this because I'm still beat up from the weekend. And the fitness trainers were like it's not how we do it. We do three big weight sessions a week and I was a bit like this can't be done, this isn't right. But after a month or so my body got used to it and I was fine and it shook me a little bit in that I thought that this way of doing things, like Monday had to be a low day wasn't actually true. You could very easily do quite a heavy day, and we did, and it would be fine. So whilst I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I am saying the thought process. I had put it in the box. You can't do that. Well, you actually could, and you don't have to.
Speaker 1:As amateur rugby it doesn't have to be Tuesday, thursday. You can train Monday, friday. It's just what your perceptions around that are. I'd had a built up playing career at club rugby where it was Tuesday, thursday and when someone suggested maybe do a full training on the Friday, you kind of resist it. But that's only based on past experience, which may or may not be true. Who said that it has to be Tuesday, thursday trainings?
Speaker 1:And when you start thinking like that and apply that to all of it, you take that example into what does a warm-up look like? Does it have to be five minutes? Does it have to be build minutes? Does it have to be build up? Can you do skipping ropes? Can you do tennis balls? Can you do maths problems? Of course you can, but it's just not what's been done traditionally.
Speaker 1:And as soon as you start thinking that way, you sort of break down what can and can't be done and then I think that's when real innovation happens. Yeah, you sort of break down what can and can't be done and then I think that's when real innovation happens, yeah, yeah. So for me, it's around what others would disagree with. I'd say what are you doing right now? Don't say that's the way that it has to be done. There's no right or wrong way to doing things. It's just what you guys do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd agree with that. Well, you're not supposed to agree with it, mate. This is the disagree section. Well, I agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 1:In terms of the I think you know the word you mentioned there was innovation. You know that part of it. Like I say again, go back to when I played. I think that's another thing that Rod was very good at was innovating and doing something different and maybe breaking out of the norm and what's been traditionally. So I think that probably added to that era in terms of the success of our run, because maybe teams didn't really we had an edge there, because teams didn't really know what we were doing, both on the field and maybe off the field in our preparation. So you can definitely sort of see that In terms of picking one myself, though, it's hard to have a belief that, because now that's 20-odd years ago and there's been a lot of innovation in that time since and there's always something there for that particular team that might make a difference, and maybe it hasn't been done before.
Speaker 1:Love it, mate. Righto, matthew, what a pleasure to sit here and chew the fat about your thoughts on culture and leadership. Absolutely loved it, mate. So what a pleasure, thank you. Thank you very much, ben, happy to be here. Cheers mate, you didn't cut that. No, we'll get it all in there. Cheers mate, you can cut that. No, we'll get it all in there.
Speaker 1:Here are my final three thoughts from a conversation with Matt. Number one plant seeds. We, as coaches, are the seed sprinklers. We need to throw the seeds out, water them and give them sunlight, and we need to make sure that it looks like it's our players and athletes idea, because when you have an idea, when it's yours or you believe it to be yours, you're more likely to go through with it, more likely to love it and more likely to commit to it.
Speaker 1:Number two write down tasks. There's something fantastic about diversifying the way you teach and coach, getting players to write down information or their tasks that they want to do, even in advance of them. Doing them is reinforcing in a different way than they're necessarily used to, and whilst it seems old-fashioned these days to write something down on paper as opposed to on a screen, it actually stimulates a slightly different mechanism in your brain. It gets restored in a slightly different way. So take advantage of that diversification and get your players to experiment with writing down tasks. Number three the head coach coaches the head. What a fantastic phrase as a reminder that for us, as coaches, we're not just there to do the skills and drills, the X's and O's, the special plays that we see on game day. We're here to help coach the head, the mental game. Here to help coach the head, the mental game, the emotional side, and that's a responsibility we all have. So remember the head coach coaches the head. Until next time, stay well.