Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Mike Ruddock: Culture, Causes, and the 2005 Welsh Legacy
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
What turns a group of talented individuals into champions? Mike Ruddock OBE—architect of Wales' historic 2005 Grand Slam—reveals it's about finding a cause worth fighting for.
Ruddock takes us on a journey through the essence of team culture, from his early days coaching "super flops" Swansea to international glory. With refreshing honesty, he shares how posting negative press clippings created a siege mentality that transformed underperformers into winners. "If you've got an overarching cause to fight for," Ruddock explains, "that was our focus—and in beating our local rivals, we won the league."
The conversation ventures into fascinating territory when Ruddock describes how he leveraged Welsh historical identity to inspire tactical innovation. By studying Owen Glyndwr's guerrilla warfare against larger English forces, he created a game plan based on speed, agility, and surprise—perfectly suited to Welsh players' strengths. These cultural connections went beyond motivation, extending to tactical approaches that helped Wales outmaneuver physically larger opponents.
Perhaps most valuable is Ruddock's candid reflection on coaching burnout following his greatest triumph. "It's always haunted me a little bit and I've never quite been as confident in my coaching ever since," he admits. His advice for sustainability? "Find time for yourself so you don't burn out. Don't try to feed everybody. Don't be such a people pleaser." This vulnerability offers powerful lessons about maintaining balance amid the pressures of leadership.
Whether you're coaching elite athletes or leading a business team, Ruddock's wisdom translates across domains. By creating shared purpose, honoring identity, selecting people who represent your values, and taking care of yourself, you build cultures capable of extraordinary achievement.
Are you building a cause worth fighting for in your team? The lessons from rugby's tribal roots might just transform how you lead.
https://www.learnfastapp.com/
Learnfastapp
It gives you real-time insights into how clearly you’re getting your message across.
Join the Free Newsletter here:
Check out the website: www.coachingculture.com.au
Before I die. If I want to, I can drive my sheep down the main road of the village. So if ever you fancy a day out in North Gwent driving a few sheep around the place, give me a shout, we'll do that.
Speaker 2:Probably. If I'm honest, I probably should have looked to discuss it more. I boggled it up this.
Speaker 1:I probably should have looked to discuss it more. I bottomed it up Like a guy with a camera, sticking the microphone in front of my face.
Speaker 2:He said what did the Queen say to you? I said, well, she said your scrum was pretty good, mike. It's always sort of haunted me a little bit and I've never quite been as confident in my coaching ever since you bet opening.
Speaker 3:You know everybody called you in ever since you back. Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating cultures and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Mike Ruddock. Mike has an Order of the British Empire, an OBE, the highest honour in the Commonwealth in reward for service to rugby and coaching. He has coached numerous teams throughout Ireland and Wales, including a Barbarians 15. His most notable achievement was the 2005 Grand Slam winning Welsh team, which is considered one of Wales' best achievements in Welsh rugby history. He is an outstanding man and shares openly the trials and tribulations, the successes and the glory he's had throughout his amazing career. Here he is. Righto, mike. The first question how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:Well, ben, the way I see it, it's so multi-layered it's difficult to sum it up in a sentence or two, but I guess it's the way you get things done. Every environment can be unique, every environment can be slightly different. So it's the way you get things done in your environment. Your environment can be slightly different. So it's the way you get things done in your environment. And I think you know last time we spoke I said to you that some of my best experiences of when have we been driven, you know, by a cause and having a cause to fight for. And you know, I remember when I came to Swansea to coach many, many years ago, swansea hadn't beaten Thlessey for 11 matches and the headlines in the pre-season write-up about the team was super flops. We've got some really good players but we always seem to flop.
Speaker 1:So I remember we sort of shaped the culture. We talked about culture in those days but we sort of shaped the culture. And we talked about culture in those days but we sort of shaped our methods and our behaviours, all gearing up to beating Clethie the Scarletts our sorry mate, I've got a phone going off here our, our methods were all based, our behaviours were all driven to that goal of beating Clethie Scarletts. You know who were our massive rivals big derby match. You know we'd lost 11 times on the trot. The club had finished last but won in the first season of Welsh Leagues. But we didn't worry about our league position so much, we talked about how we could beat our local rivals. You know, and that course, sort of drove, the mindset, drove, the culture of hard work, effort, consistency of effort. So you know some of the key pillars I talk about would be, you know that winning mindset, um, effort. You know, if you, if you interview anybody who's just won an olympic gold medal or anyone who's just won a cup final or a league, they'll all. You know. The question is like, okay, what did it take to win the league? And and the first thing most athletes will say is it took a lot of effort. You know, all the training, all the planning, all the effort that went into training and preparation, all the effort that went into the race, all the cup finalists, it's all about effort. I talk about that sort of mindset around that, the effort, the consistency. You can't just bring it the odd time. You've got to keep on bringing it, haven't you, when you've got a cause to fight for. I think that helps to drive that.
Speaker 1:Then it's about things like self-belief and discipline. If you've got the discipline to stay in in the program, in the mindset, into the training, into the effort and on the field, of course, these days with yellow cards and red cards, the discipline of eating properly, sleeping properly, that's a key pillar. Of course, ben, when I played, discipline wasn't overly talked about in the Wild West, but these discipline is well. I always say to my teams that I've coached. There's three things about modern rugby. The first one is discipline. The second one is discipline. The third one is discipline because you start giving away yellow cards, red cards, get yourself about modern rugby. The first one is discipline. The second one is discipline. The third one is discipline Because you start giving away yellow cards, red cards, get yourself in the corner trying to defend driving line-ups with a man or two down, trying to work through 10, 20-minute periods with men down. You know it's very difficult, isn't it? But that discipline is all about being on time for your sessions. When you cross the white line, bang. The effort comes in, the mindset comes in, the consistency comes in and I think if you do that, you can bring a lot of self-belief to your, you know, to your effort.
Speaker 1:Really, a very quick story when I was what 18, I grew up in a very small coal mining village in North Gwent. And well, our youth team won the Welsh Youth Cup and I remember we had a bit of a meeting and we said, right, what's our goals for the season? And somebody mentioned this, you know win the Welsh Youth Cup. And for a lot of us, you know, we were a tiny little speck on a map. You, you know, we sort of lent into it a little bit but we didn't really think it might happen. But lo and behold, we win it. You know, we're champions of Wales from this small village.
Speaker 1:And it taught me something, that why can't it be you, you know, why can't it be us? So, believe in what you're doing, put the effort in, be disciplined around it. That builds self-belief. And be disciplined around it, that builds self-belief. And the other pillar really I think is important when I look and think about culture and the pillars and underpin culture, ben, it would be, you know, bounce back ability. I don't think that's in the dick me, but is that a well-read?
Speaker 3:is that?
Speaker 1:don't ask me this yeah, it could be, and don't ask me to spell it, please. And don't ask me to spell it please, please, don't ask me to spell it. But you know you'll always have setbacks, you'll always have ups and downs. You'll always have losses, although you don't want them. It's how you come back from those losses, how you learn, how you implement solutions, how you get back on track with your mindset, with your effort, with your discipline, with your consistency of effort and generating your self-belief. So you know, that's what I've learned over the years.
Speaker 1:And going back to the cause if you've got an overarching cause to fight for, like we did against trying to beat Klaethi, that was our focus and you know we managed to beat them and in doing so, we won the league. So we went from last but won to win the league, and we never talk about outcome goals other than trying to get a process in place to beat our local rivals, ben and, and everything was geared to that. You know, I remember sitting down with the lads pre-season and say, right, you know what. I remember sitting down with the lads pre-season and saying, right, what's been going well with the team, what do you feel we need to work on, et cetera, et cetera. And then we talked about training times. So let's talk about that discipline and effort side of it. As a real-life example and again, I'm going back a long time, ben, but I remember saying to the lads well, what time would you like to train? 6.30, 7 o'clock.
Speaker 1:I remember that I sometimes, after work, used to find the time making it absolutely on time because I would travel 50 miles in each direction. So I said, look, we all need to start together, start on time, build that brotherhood, build that discipline. And everyone said, well, we start at 6.30. And two lads turned up late and, uh, you know, I sent them home and, uh, I told them they wouldn't allow to train with the team until they could, you know, turn up on time. So we, straight away. Uh, I think that put everybody on notice that you know they needed to be buy into what they'd actually said, which was we could start on time at 6.30. So, yeah, I look back to those sort of simple things. We didn't really talk about culture, ben. We just talked about how we were going to be classy, but it sort of created a culture. That, when I reflect and look back, yeah, you know those things that we talk about in the modern era. We're all underpinning that effort.
Speaker 3:That goes back to like the Corinthian spirit, isn't it Like you work hard, play hard, that kind of thing. But how did you? You drew on that analogy where the papers called you the super flops and I think another one said a squad of rejects. Now, you really drew upon those things, didn't you? And, and I'm really intrigued about how, taking something negative and flipping it um to create that cause, they're driven by that cause of everyone thinks we're not good enough. How did that play out? And and what are your reflections on driving a cause by sort of that negative aspect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think people these days talk about seize mentality perhaps. And you're right, when I put up the super flops on the board in Swansea in the dressing room back in those days, there wasn't even a notice board in the changing room. So the first thing we did we thought we were cutting an edge to put up a notice board in the changing rooms. And the first thing we did we thought we were cutting an edge to put up a notice board in the changing rooms and we put the newspaper article up and the lads came in and started looking at it and we had a chat about it and a couple of weeks later I enrolled, you know, asked a sports scientist to join us and to start to look at the fitness elements of things, which now, of course, are, you know, consistent the standard. But in those days it was, it was pretty new. So we got into fitness testing. He looked at the write-up on the board and he said that's interesting, tell me about this, I'm curious about this. So I explained the methodology. He said well, hang on now, what if you don't beat clenchy, uh, will they start to believe, uh, that they are flops? I went, oh my god, I never thought of that, you know. But we are going to beat them, you know, and thankfully we did. But I think it created that sort of siege mentality, that chip on the shoulder that we had. That was unique to us and you know the rejects.
Speaker 1:One you talked about was when I went to coach the Dragons in Newport and it's the first year of professional rugby, regional rugby, sorry, first year of regional rugby in Wales, so it's just over 20 years ago and there were five originally five regional teams and everyone sort of looked at putting their squads together and I think for some reason no one really fancied coming down to Gwent it was a combination originally of Newport and Ebbw Vale. The benefactors at the time wanted to reduce their commitment financially to the team, so our budget wasn't the best so we had to offload a lot of players. Now I did manage to hang on to the great Percy Montgomery, which was fantastic. But when the press looked at our squad, when I put it together, they said, well, that's not a great squad, that's a bunch of rejects. I think someone wrote, so again took that terminology, can't remember if I actually pinned it up on the board, but I referenced it and before we knew it it created a real tight bond. We even went into administration halfway through the season. I remember taking the lads down to the pub I said we'll bid and trade in, let's just get in the pub and have a few beers and stick together. And that's what we did, and we ended up third in the Celtic League and that's still pretty much the highest finish they've ever had in a league, you know. So that togetherness, that sort of ability to have a cause to fight for and to stand shoulder to shoulder, ben, you know, certainly has served my efforts over the years.
Speaker 1:And even again you know, again I'm looking at perhaps more amateur or semi-pro type stuff when I went to Lansdowne which was pretty much my last gig between 2011 and 2019 they'd never won the All-Ireland League before. You know Division 1A, which is the next tier below professional rugby, and we, you know, below professional rugby, and we, you know, we focus there on things like the perception of Lansdowne, how we can build trademarks. You know how to define ourselves, how to build the reputation internally that we want to project externally, and we ended up winning three All-Ireland Leagues. Now, I did get a lot of good players coming through into Lansdowne, people like my last two hookers were Dan Sheehan and Ronan Kellyha, for example, the two Irish hookers at the moment. Tyne Byrne had a couple of seasons with us, those sort of quality of players because the Leinster Academy would release players to us.
Speaker 1:But again it was driven by a perception really that caused that everyone felt Lansdowne was the posh club, a bit of a bunch of lofties, you know. And when we used to go down to Limerick and Cork and places like that Young Munster, gary Owen, those sort of places they'd Young Munster, gary Owen, those sort of places they'd get stuck into us, you know, and perhaps discover a bit of a soft underbelly. So that was our sort of goal. Our cause was to, you know, to make sure that we were representing a tougher version of ourselves and a more skillful version of ourselves. And we ended up winning three All-Ireland Leagues in what? Seven or eight seasons. So really happy with that, ben, and those sort of things. Identifying the cause meant that we could drill down into okay, well, what shapes the behaviors and actions below that to drive that, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's really special, mike, that you talk about that togetherness and that it's unique to us and I think that's probably the important aspect of this, that the boys really thought that it was theirs. Where you develop that reputation internally, that's then reflected externally. I think that's a really cool concept and there's almost a little bit of tribalism in there. Isn't there Like this is us, this is our little patch, and that kind of element, particularly in Wales, probably more so back in the early 2000s, was very tribalistic. Is that a fair statement?
Speaker 1:Oh, ben, it was unbelievably tribal back in the day. You know I grew up in the 70s, playing rugby in the 70s sorry, born in the 50s, playing rugby in the 70s and know the welsh valleys at that time were all coal mining towns, you know, and, uh, you know they were. They were little valley towns, you know, mounting either side one road in, one road out, and the next village pretty much joined your village. But you know that boundary was significant and, uh, you know you had to beat. Every season you had to beat your local rival and East and West or North and South, and you know that was drilled into you and that tribalism was massive and of course if someone got one up on you or had an innovation it would create a lot of soul searching. So I suppose I come from that and when I went to Ireland I was, you know, not surprised. They should have been very aware that it was very parish driven as well. You look at the Gaelic football and the. You know the pride around representing your parish, representing your county, you know is massive, you know. So you know, when Dublin played Cork and Galway and Clare and all those Gaelic football teams and Hurling teams, I mean playing in front of Croke Park 75,000, 80,000 people for an amateur sport. It's all driven by tribalism and parish pride.
Speaker 1:So when I went to Ireland and started working in Dublin, particularly uh, you know the the clubs in in around central Dublin, they were perceived to be a little bit posh.
Speaker 1:You know, um, you know the lads tended to come from fee paying schools and and, uh, you know, yet, when he went down the country a little bit to you know the likes of Limerick, as they say, down the country a little bit to you know the likes of Limerick, as I say, the young Munsters and those boys, they, you know they wanted to get stuck into these Dublin clubs because they thought they'd perhaps add a little bit more of a silver spoon. So I realised then there was a lot of tribalism around that and that was brilliant, that was driving a lot of competitiveness. You know which still to this day. I mean you know the Munster-Leinster games, I think they were in Croke Park and all of that is built on tribalism and it's probably something that we lost in Wales a little bit, quite a bit perhaps, when we went to regional rugby and that sense of identity perhaps left us. The effort is still there, the excellent coaching is still there.
Speaker 3:left us, you know, the effort is still there, the excellent coaching is still there, but you know we lost a little bit about you know that representation of our hometown, you know, yeah, and I guess there's a couple of things in that mike which I'm really interested in is, firstly, when you went across to lenster, who ultimately are not super flops and probably never have been did you have to adjust your sort of tone? Coming from an area where you were playing on the underdog, that sort of negative drive Did you have to flip that with a team which is actually more than qualified to do well? Did you have to turn that narrative a different way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's elements of it. As I said right at the outset, everything is. You know, every team and every environment can be slightly different, but I think, if you're true to yourself, you bring yourself and the values that have shaped you and the experiences that have shaped you anyway. You know I think that's what I have learned over the years is the worse you want to drive your key pillars and your key philosophies and you know, stay authentic to your values, that it's important to, as you said, get everyone involved in building the culture as well. You know, and get input from, you know, your players and the people around you, um, and particularly around those things I call the trade marks. You know, um, we did some work on that with uh it was a company called winning teams years ago and I thought I was very good. You know, um, we did some work on that with uh it was a company called winning teams years ago and I thought I was very good, you know.
Speaker 1:So my time in leinster was probably a little bit different, in that it was I was the first professional coach to go to leinster. Up until then it'd been an amateur, um, you know, club and I was. I was taken aback by the fact that actually they didn't have a club. Leinster was a branch of the Irish Rugby Union, in the same way that Ulster, connacht and Munster are, and they had a sort of porter cabin to run all the competitions out of and the admin out of, but they didn't have their own clubhouse, they didn't have their own field, so they didn't have their own training facilities. So there was no real culture whatsoever because, um, to even discuss and to chat around, because the culture was very episodic, if you know what I mean, in terms of they'd have an episode where they turn, turn up and play an inter-provincial game or European Cup game at a hired ground that wasn't theirs and off they'd go back to their clubs.
Speaker 1:So you know, and it was an interesting experience because, you know, we didn't have any way to call home, we were quite nomadic, we'd be training at different facilities, playing, you know, out of different places from time to time. So that took a while to adjust to that. You know, I'd just come from Swansea Rugby Club where we had a fantastic clubhouse overlooking Swansea Bay, st Helens, home of the first international for Wales all those years ago. So yeah, to suddenly be in a very famous club and brand, but realizing it was at the start of the professional journey. You go back now. They've got a high-performance center in University College Dublin. They've got training fields, they've got state-of-the-art facilities. It's amazing how far they've come. You know.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit of a culture, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I love this quote of yours about your biggest contribution to Irish rugby was in the bedroom, mike, with your lovely wife. Being Irish, it means all your kids are qualified to play for Ireland, which they've done a good job of doing, correct.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to play for Ireland, which they've done a good job of doing correct. Yeah, rhys. My younger boy has just retired there last year after 15 seasons with Leinster. You know he's had two World Cups as an international player, 27th in the cap. My eldest boy, kieran he was a former Ireland under-20 captain and Leinster. He's had a couple of games for Leinster. He's now one of the fitness coaches for the Island senior team. Again, he's done a couple of World Cups as a conditioning coach. My daughter, katie, even played for Island Netball in the under-20s. That was my contribution really, ben.
Speaker 3:It's a lovely testament, Mike. Yeah, like well done. Like that's, I guess, for any sports coach if all three children have got careers in sport, you've done something outstanding.
Speaker 1:Well, mike, just to digress, my daughter has gone on to become a counsellor and she only had to do one year instead of three because they said, after living with me, they'd given her two years free credit. She's doing a great job at Boxplace.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love it, mate, I love it. Now, mate, on to your sort of stuff. Mike, You've had an epic career around your stuff. You've had some real highs and lows and I think it's only sort of fair to just talk about the ups and downs of coaching, because a lot of the audience here, whilst most, won't have got to Grand Slam winning teams, but everyone experiences their highs and lows of coaching and you've obviously had a career of it and I'd love to just dive into how you've processed some of those ups and downs throughout your career. So I guess the most obvious one is your Welsh experience where you took over and you absolutely dominated and won a Grand Slam which is considered one of Wales' best historic achievements. How was that success and how did you jump into that process to start with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I sort of tried not to jump into it. To be honest with you, it found me. I didn't apply for the job. It was the first season of Welsh rugby. I think I mentioned regional rugby. I think I mentioned that I just signed up with the Dragons. We had a really good season Unbeaten at home, you know, gone to places like Munster and won, finished third in the league and I really enjoyed it. I thought, you know it's just a great thing to be involved with. And the workshop reunion. Steve Hansen had finished or was finishing with the Welsh team and they asked for applications and I didn't apply, you know. One, I didn't think I was ready. Two, I was really enjoying what I was doing anyway with the dragons and, um, mike why did you think you were not ready for that?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've always struggled with like imposter syndrome and you know, low confidence around. You know my ability, so I probably didn't think I was ready anyway, um, to do that, you know. So I was quite happy. I probably felt I created a little niche for myself and I was in the comfort zone a little bit. Not, you can ever be comfortable with um. Uh, you know we're not gonna be comfortable in coaching, but I was really happy there.
Speaker 1:But suddenly I got a knock on the door. Uh, a couple guys from the West Tribune came to meet me and asked me if I'd um, you know, come to meet them at a local hotel for a chat. I did. They said, look, we wanted to apply, we really wanted to apply. And I said, well, I'm happy where I am. Anyway, there was conversations around, just come for the interview. So I did the interview, Ben, and you know the way you just walk out of an interview room sometimes and you think I've absolutely nailed that. It doesn't happen very often, but it happened that day and, yeah, I absolutely nailed it and was happy with that. And well, a day or so later I got a phone call saying we want to offer you the job.
Speaker 3:Well, how did your imposter syndrome go then? Mate Like did it kick in? I was fired up.
Speaker 1:Then I was fired up. Then I was fired up. Then you know that these guys felt I could do it. So yeah, fired up for that and said okay, and yeah, give it a go.
Speaker 1:And again, you do a little bit of due diligence, you ask around about different things and you know there was terminology being used around the time. You know, steve did a great job. He's rebuilding, you know. But you know, to the Welsh he was a bit of a shock to the system because he was recalibrating the culture, you know. And you know there were terms like Jailer Glamorgan instead of the Vale of Glamorgan Hotel, it was called the Jailer Glamorgan Hotel because a couple of boys had been sent home for, you know, not staying overnight and things like that, when they should have been. So absolutely the right things to do.
Speaker 1:But I guess I thought, well, perhaps with this, certainly with a Welsh coaching job you know, who knows what sort of timelines you get with that type of job. So I thought, well, perhaps we just need to look a bit more at the Welsh culture. You know, we I think once we cross the white line we can get stuck in. But actually we're quite relaxed and we like to sing. We like to laugh, you know we're perhaps not quite as intense as some rugby nations, you know. So I was trying to find the balance. So I probably went in and tried to create a bit more of a relaxing atmosphere as well around that. You know, that was my gut instinct.
Speaker 3:You know, and is that just based on what you knew? The culture was already and you thought this is the shift which is needed for the Welsh players.
Speaker 1:I think it's so much a shift, ben, as a tweak, the shift which is needed for the Welsh players. I think it was so much a shift, Ben, as a tweak. You know all the stuff that was going into them and that Steve had changed was fantastic. You know, greater expectations around fitness levels and all that sort of stuff was really, really important. But you know, and that sort of driven mindset around getting better every day, absolutely you need to keep that. But, being a bit on the Welsh side, you know creating a sense of legacy and identity about who Welsh people are.
Speaker 1:I remember writing a bit of a book I've been studying and reading up a little bit about owen glendore, the last welsh prince of wales, and uh, it is guerrilla warfare. Um, you know, he'd he'd had land taken from him by an english overlord and, uh, when he he was a trained lawyer and when he went to, uh, the house of the parliament to argue the case that he needed to get his land back, I think the judgment was what care we for these barefooted peasants, you know, as in a bit of a slight on the Welsh people, you know. So I acquired him up and he took on the English army and of course he couldn't take them on head on. So he looked at his tactical approach, which was to hide in the bushes, wait for the big army to go past and then knock off the last 10 or 12 guys and, you know, got into everybody and use his footwork and his sense of surprise and agility to get away. You know, and that element of surprise, that element of speed and footwork and agility shone through that story hugely to me.
Speaker 1:So I was trying to reinforce that, put the booklet together, talk around some of that sort of stuff about who we are as a nation and when we looked at the other nations actually it was interesting. I read about that. So, for example, Owen Glyndwr knew that the French didn't particularly like the English at that time. So he spoke to the King of France and he said, yeah, we'll send a load of troops over so we'll help you fight the battle. So the lads arrived from France into North Wales or Mid Wales and the weather was pretty inclement and the wine was not what they like again. So after about two or three days, before they marched, they got back on the boat and sailed back home, you know. So it's sort of again, and I referenced that type of stuff in that you know if we play France, if the going gets a bit tough, you know there's always a chance, that you know they won't stick around.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. So you're drawing, you're using history in the Welsh national team for the Six Nations Champions longer years ago and pulling out analogies to fire up the team, to create that motivation and inspiration and even tactical elements based on what happened a gazillion years ago historically yeah, so.
Speaker 1:so wheels, for example, wheels we knew couldn't overpower england up front, uh, or france, you know, some of those countries were more players and bigger athletes. So he was using that two-second liner, two-second scrum, two-second ruck footwork to find soft shoulders and try and get slightly behind the tackle so we could recycle the ball very quickly. So it was all that sort of methodology from who we were as a nation that we tried to put into our game plan. I'm going back to I've never asked anyone about this, but I quite think about it from time to time was there's a great quote from Richard the Lionheart around the Crusades? You know the time of the Crusades and it was how brave the Welsh, because he recruited a lot of Welsh soldiers to fight in the Crusades and he was saying how brave they were.
Speaker 1:So I printed these quotes off on A4. When we played England before the first game, I saluted them to the back of the door in the toilets In the shit house. So when someone sat down and shut the door door, it was straight in front of him. I thought I wish I could have uh heard what happened after after that. You know, so all that stupid stuff around that, but it was all going on like, is it stupid stuff?
Speaker 3:I guess this is the question, because, like, is it stupid stuff, or does it have real value, that stuff?
Speaker 1:well reflecting on that question. That's a really good question. I guess I had a I must have had a huge chance of pride that we were welsh and we were, you know, good, good scrappers, if you like we were. You know we were a good nation, we were very welcoming nation. But once we crossed the white line or once we went into battle, you know you'd like to think there was a bit of mongrel about us. You know there was something going on about us. So, uh, we weren't going to lay down. So I guess I must have been proud of that. Just put that on the back of the door.
Speaker 1:Going to put the book together, you know, and uh, and and give it to the lads. So everybody that came new into the squad got the book and then we were able to reference some of it in our written game plan. You know notes and all that sort of stuff, you know. So, yeah, you know, looking back, it was it was sort of the timing of me doing a little bit of the reading around that, and then this opportunity to come up with Wales was sort of perfect. You know it led me into that sort of mindset around that which I think might have helped you know culturally, to help us to you know. Remember who we are. You know as a Welsh nation.
Speaker 3:And then, ultimately, I guess the biggest testament to what you did that year was you went on to win the Six Nations, the Grand Slam, which was phenomenal at the time. Right, it hadn't been done for 26, 27 years before that. So there's a great argument to say that that cultural theming you did, the reflection on history, the reference point you gave players when they sat on the toilet, actually served a greater purpose. It did something to that team, which had not won much for a long time, to then take them that jump up, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I couldn't really answer that, ben, but all I say is that it felt the right thing to do. Hansen, in terms of you know we needed a shift. You were talking about a shift earlier in terms of how we prepare properly and more professionally, particularly around conditioning and skills, and bringing some of the knowledge base from, like, super Rugby and New Zealand Rugby into Welsh Rugby. That was fundamental to that. There's no doubt about that. The other thing I think was important was, you know, selection. I never thought I was the best coach in the world. I didn't think I was the worst coach in the world, but because I moved around quite a bit and gone to places like Leinster, where I had to pick from a number of clubs and bring them in together to create a European cup team, it gave me a good grounding in you know my selection template. You know what type of player would I pick to create the team that I felt represented me. So when I went into the Welsh interview and when I went into to pick the Welsh team, I absolutely knew what I needed to do really, and that was so. For example, we had Gethin Jenkins, who was a loose head and a fantastic rugby player, playing the season before as a tight end.
Speaker 1:Now, I grew up in the Gwent Valleys where every Gwent pack had a good, strong scrum and they could lose a game. But they never wanted to lose a head, one against a head. If they did, front rows would be crumbling all night, you know, if they lost a game they'd be upswinging, but if they lost one against their head they'd go home. So I would grow up and I'd play against. You know the Pawnee Pool pack. You know the Pawnee Pool front row and I learned, you know the hard way that. You know, scrum was king, you know. So I wanted a tight dead. I wanted a tight dead and I didn't want to lose that. Playing Adam Jones, you know I picked him to play tight dead from the start. I think the season before he'd be coming off after 30 minutes because his fitness there was questions over his fitness levels. To me, the tight dead, you know if I can get a, a nudge in the scrum, or at least parity in the scrum, ideally a dominant scrum. Well, you know from your time in Leicester.
Speaker 3:I'm sure they will. I think Leicester's top try to score every year for a good number of years was, by far and away, penalty tries.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and that was a Northern Hemisphere thing. Obviously there's less scrums now and I remember having that conversation with a couple of coaches about it and I said, well, even though there's less scrums, the counter argument is every one of those scrums are now twice as important Because by the time you get that field position, if you've got a scrum in the opposition 22 and you can't hold your scrum or you give away a penalty, that's an easy out for the opposition. You can't apply pressure and you potentially can't win games. And it's the same in the scrum in your 22. In particular, if you can't manufacture from time to time, like a double drive you know their flankers are all up probably looking to see if they can get a charge down you do a second drive there, penalty, bang up on the halfway line, you've relieved all the pressure. Those are the lessons I learned. You did a tight dead. So you know I made sure I had a tight dead. I had a scrummaging hook there. I made sure I did that.
Speaker 1:We had Michael Owen the season before playing in the second row, who was a number eight and a really good footballer. He was an outside half with a six foot five frame. You know, really he was a great rugby player. But you'd put a rugby player scrummaging in the second row and he can't wait to get out there. You've got a loose head playing on the right, eddie. That's a waste of time because you want the best loose head in the scrum earlier to get around the field. Gethin Jenkins had a big charge down, for example against Ireland in the last game. You might remember he charged Rona Ag Gara down and dribbled the ball at his feet to score the try. You know you tried doing that when you were tight after 25 scrums. So we made sure we got him back away. You get out the scrum and show that energy. And then we had a Frank playing number 8.
Speaker 1:So in the interview basically he'd drawn on my Gwent, my Monmouthshire roots of Gwent tribalism, which you talked about was quite clearly my sort of answers to how would I fix the Welsh team would be I said you've got a fault line straight through your script, you know.
Speaker 1:So you can't go into battle, you know, with that fault line because once the pressure comes on, all the cracks will appear and we had the best backs around. I brought Gavin Hinson in at 12, but we had a great set of backs with the likes of Dwayne Peel and Stephen Jones and all these fantastic players. But if you can't get them the ball, ben, you know again from your time up in Leicester if you can't get quality ball as well, more importantly, their efficiency is not as good. So I drew on all of that stuff my time in Welsh rugby, in particular Gwent rugby, my selection, I'd like to think, my selection experiences, and particularly going outside of Wales and I went to bring together a rep team like lenster, from different clubs and cultures and and my welsh pride. Hopefully all came together to create something that, yeah, as you said, was just worked for the season.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, probably did much after that, but it worked for the season well, mate, I I I think I can testament what you said for myself as well that moving around not only for selection-wise it does definitely improve you out of sight on that, but it also opens you up to be more receptive yourself to different ideas and cultural nuances of different places, and it just rounds you as not only a coach but as a person as well, which I think is outstanding. And when you said the phrase you picked the team that represented me, I thought that was a super powerful statement in that, as a coach and selector, we often forget that they're actually representing not only the team but the coach's values and behaviors and standards as well. So I think that's a lovely thing for the audience here on this podcast to just remember that you're picking people to represent you, and I think that's really cool. Well thanks, man. And so then, obviously you did so well, mate you got awarded the OBE, the Order of the British Empire.
Speaker 3:Was that directly after that performance? That must have scrubbed the imposter syndrome out completely, did it? Or did it make it even worse? How did that go? Because that's an amazing achievement to receive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was really good. And if I remember the day I went to Buckingham Palace, I remember coming out from Buckingham Palace and there was a bit of a scrum of press people around, different people, and it was my turn to do a quick interview and I remember, like a guy with a camera sticking the microphone in front of my face, he said, well, what did the Queen say to you? I said, well, she said your scrum was pretty good, mike, but your length didn't do the work. And I think he wrote it down down I think it was in the paper the next day. So I don't think he knew much about rugby, but no, it was a really good experience.
Speaker 1:Um, but I also had the freedom of nanti glowing blight, you know, which was just as uh, powerful for me, because that was my hometown, small little village, and I'm only a second man in history, ben, to be awarded the freedom of nanti glowing bliner. And, uh, that means I can, before I die, if I want to, I can drive my sheep down the main road of the village. So, uh, if ever you fancy a day out in north gwent, uh, driving a few sheep around the place, give me a shout, we'll do that I would love to do that, mike.
Speaker 3:I think what an honor that would be. So you haven't pulled that card out yet that you've saved. Oh well, mate, next time I'm back over I'd love to pull you up on that and we'd get a few sheep together and see where we can get to. I know my kids would love it. Now, mate, and then after that, after that lovely experience, it sort of went a bit. You know it's often considered one of the great sort of mysteries, of sort of Wales rugby. What happened to you? A resignation, and that was it really. So what were some of the deeper aspects of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I thought we were going to enjoy this podcast, Ben.
Speaker 3:Mate, we've got to balance it out. We can't be all the great stuff. You've got to get some dirt and some deep, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, where do I start with that? Well, the interesting thing about that, ben, you know we could talk all day about a lot of stuff that was going on around that time. But you know, the bottom line for me was because I had not applied for the job and I was still doing the Dragons. When I was asked to do the job, I was still coaching the Dragons and we finished off the last couple of games and Wales were then about to embark on a tour to Argentina and South Africa. So it was a very busy time.
Speaker 1:I was offered given the contract to sign, which I took home to look through and give to my solicitor, and it never got signed. I just was too busy, I didn't sign it up. So I did the whole season um, you know season, uh, the Grand Slam season without the signed contract. Um, because you know the wording, needed conversations. My lawyer wouldn't, you know, like, let me sign it until we'd had conversations, but I was just too busy, so it just never got signed. And then, when we talked about having uh never got signed, and then when we talked about having uh, you know uh, an extension on the contract at the end of that successful season that dragged on for months and months and months and in the end all those conversations disappeared.
Speaker 1:So, you know, I just felt, well, look, it's time to move on. And you know that happens in sports sometimes. You know, the contract negotiations or whatever break down and it just doesn't happen and I started not to enjoy it. And then I started to get some self-doubts because you're not going to sign a contract, because you feel that you know you're not, you're unsure and uncertain where you stand with you know the powers to be. All of a sudden, all that sort of self-doubt starts to come in. You know, is it time to move somewhere else? And I feel like, you know, a fresh start. So that's the sort of stuff that happened to me. I wasn't enjoying it, I wasn't sure I had a future there, you know, yeah, so it just ended that way. Really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's a pretty high-profile place when things don't go to plan, isn't it? And then there's like a lot of obviously the media stuff and that's not pleasant. Eh, it's not a fun experience when you're in the spotlight, and a place like Wales where rugby's such a high-profile thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it wasn't a good experience. And even like I had cameras outside my front door, my kids were going to school. They were stopping. Is your mom and dad home or your dad home? We want to talk to them. People knocking on the door, sticking their feet in, you know, trying to get you know interviews. So it was a tough time, ben. I've got to tell you, not just for me but for my whole family as well, you know.
Speaker 3:And not just for me but for my whole family as well, you know, and what sort of advice would you give to coaches going through? Obviously, not probably that level scale of pressure and and doubts and things like that, but what would you say to, you know, any coach that's struggling with an aspect of of the role?
Speaker 4:you know I probably, uh, if I'm honest, I probably should have. Uh, you know, I probably, uh, if I'm honest, I probably should have. Uh, you know, looked to discuss it more. I bottomed it up. You know, these days you can, you know you can talk to coaches and mentors. You can, uh, you can. Uh, you know, perhaps you can get into therapy and counseling.
Speaker 4:No, but I, I didn't do that. I just tried to be a good working class vali boy from a cool-minded era and just sort of put it to one side and get on with it. It's always haunted me a little bit and I've never quite been as confident in my coaching ever since. So my advice to young coaches would be you know, find time for yourself so you don't actually start to burn out. Don't try to feed everybody. Don't be such a people pleaser in the way that I was, you know, and finally stretch yourself.
Speaker 4:You know, find time to recharge your own batteries is really important.
Speaker 4:As I say, when you're coaching you give so much for everybody else and I listen to podcasts, I breadstuff on it and you know I understand it better now. If you don't find time for yourself, if you don't look at sort of strategies to recharge, you end up leaving a bit of you behind. You end up leaving a bit of you behind, you end up leaving a bit of unity, right, you know, in all the jobs in your country. So, fine time for you recharge your batteries so that when the stresses and strain do come on, uh, there's a bit more fuel in the tank and I probably, you know, just sort of emptied out the bits and it took me a while to get back into it and, in fact, my next job I was still with I wasn't, uh, uh, you know, very successful, probably a reflection of my, uh, physical and and mental capacity at the time, which was much more regained, you know isn't it amazing how, um, something that you love can just take or can be this all-consuming thing.
Speaker 3:but but I, I really um, I really understand that man.
Speaker 3:I think it's more common than you probably give it um credence, for I think all coaches go through it and obviously yours your, where you were dealing with it was just such a high profile, such a public thing, it made it even bigger.
Speaker 3:But I think across the board, in all coaches at any level, there's that you want to do well and you feel like you've been judged by the parents on the sideline. If you're coaching an under-9s team, I've seen coaches at that age the kids' age group that are just you know. I can see that they're feeling the pressures and the stresses because there's that people pleasing or crowd pleasing or parents pleasing that they're trying to do. And I think the point that you made about you've got to give yourself a bit of time, you've got to be gentle on yourself at times and know when to walk away and take a moment. I was talking to a coach the other day who actually allocates time in his diary and just says at these times I'm out, I'm reading books and doing something complete out because he knows himself and I just thought that was a like that's pretty hardcore to actually schedule it in the diary around this. But I think the concept is a wonderful one.
Speaker 1:Well, again, you've got to realize it's over 20 years ago. So in those days I had no agent, ben, there was no agent to represent me. So instead of focusing so in year one I just came in and enjoyed myself. I focused on all the stuff we talked about earlier being proud to be Welsh, trying to put the book together to sort of reinforce that Welshness, to make better selections, I felt, and to select the team that represented me, all that sort of stuff we talked about to create a slight tweak in how we went about things. It was a little bit more freedom, if you like, rather than feeling like we were in a bit of a jail. So all that sort of stuff, and it worked for me.
Speaker 1:But then, once we started talking about contracts, my focus of attention was shifting elsewhere and starting to worry about all that sort of stuff and I knew I wasn't coaching then as well as I wanted to, because I suddenly had all this other stuff going on that was sidetracking my focus and leading my trail of thoughts, if you like, into a lot of these dark, negative areas. You know, do my employers still want me? Am I wanted? Am I valued? Am I being backed? You know, because that makes a difference when you walk on the field. If you don't feel you've been backed, then you know you're not really as confident about what you're doing as you would have been if you know who you're sorting.
Speaker 1:So all that sort of stuff came to me and yeah. So looking back, you know these days that wouldn't happen because you've got an agent then to deal with that middle sort of interim task of dealing with contracts and that sort of stuff, you know. So it takes all that off you. It can allow you just to get on the field and do what you need to do and get on with things you know. So I guess, looking back, that was just a learning curve of where the game was at the time, where I was, where most people were in the early days. You know, without agents, without an interim, you know someone in between you and your employer to talk about. You know your contract and how things work out.
Speaker 3:And I guess that's the big shift, isn't it? The head coach in a rugby environment these days is a lot. In fact, most of their job isn't on field, is it? There's all the background stuff which is man management, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and you know you need to be really focused on that. So many things are coming at you. You know your staff will need contracts. Your players need contracts, the media, everything that's going on around you, the game plan, the preparation, you know, the players, the injuries. You know the last thing you want to do is spend lots and lots of time away out of that talking. You know trying to get you know contractual matters resolved. Really, yeah.
Speaker 3:And how's that gone into your current role, Mike, with the Ospreys and non-executive director? Have you been able to bring some of that and take it off? Head coaches and coaches at the Ospreys at the moment.
Speaker 1:My role is pretty broad in that I try and help and advise where I can. So, for example, at the moment I've got a couple of calls set up for next week between Swansea University, some players who are Welsh qualified exiles that would be looking to come to university to study. We can put them into a situation where, if they get accepted, because their grades are good enough, they can play in the BUCS program, the British Universities League, where we can keep an eye on them and stick them on the radar. So that's all very exciting. So I can do stuff like that. At the moment, in fact, we've got an Australian lad who's over for the last two years, who's Welsh qualified and he's been at Swansea University and he's been in the Bucks team and now it looks like he's going to come out of that and get a job and stay in a pathway with one of our regional clubs. So you know, I'm really excited about that. He's loving life in Wales. He's missing a bit of sunshine in Sydney, but he's loving that.
Speaker 1:And for example, next week I've got a meeting with, you know, a number of chief executives. We've made an introduction and our new commercial director will be talking about our move to the new stadium at St Helens. So I'll be attending that and we'll be doing a Q&A and stuff around the move from the current stadium that we got to a newer stadium out of the old Swansea Rugby Club. So that's all very exciting and if we can create some enthusiasm around potential partnerships and people coming on board and supporting that vision, around that new start at Swansea Rugby Club, then you know that's part of my role as well, so it's a pretty broad one. I've been enjoying it. As I said, ben, I think I'm coming towards retirement now. I'm 66 in a couple of months. So you know, I think I'm almost ready to be hanging the whistle up, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and going on tour with classic British on Irish Lions teams potentially. Oh, you've just pulled out of that tour but you're missing an absolute cracker by the sounds of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did Bermuda last year with the classic Lions. It was fantastic. We got hammered in the first game against South Africa. You know, we arrived on scooters, the lads arrived on scooters after a few beers the night before and when we got there, south Africa, ruben Piena and the boys were doing press-ups and planks in the warm-up area. So it was a bit of a shock to us and they batted us in the first game. But we regrouped. So, going back to one of my key pillars earlier, ben, I said bounce back ability. We regrouped and we managed to win the plate. We came away with some sort of silverware. I love it.
Speaker 3:Well, Mike, we'll sign off now, but I've got one more question for you, which I enjoy asking Is there anything about the game in any regard that you agree with that you don't think your peers would agree with?
Speaker 1:oh, what a great question. Um, I don't know if my peers wouldn't agree with it, but I think I really think it's time to uh, to look at the game and say, right, we can't have the same game and the same complex laws, uh, for amateur and community rugby and schools rugby that we've got with the senior game, the professional game. You know, and the reason I say that is, excuse me, the reason I say that is, um, when I've spoken to teachers locally, you know, I say, well, why isn't your school playing rugby? They say, well, by the time we do the risk assessment and you know, we've got concerns over potential injuries and now we understand the laws, then it's easier to throw a football in the middle of the field and say have a game of football, lads. So, you know, I think we need to sit down and say, right, you know, let's make the game simpler and easier to understand the coach and play at a lower level and the community level and amateur level to professional rugby. Because, professional rugby, we have got a game that's 150 years old. We got the same number of players on the field, the same duration 80 minutes as we did 150 years ago when they trained once or twice a week for the same number of players that train professionally every day, and then we expect the amateurs and the community and the schools to do exactly the same.
Speaker 1:You know, to me that doesn't make any sense. Really, we should have a separate but aligned type of product as our professional game, and in a tweaked version lower down, I believe. So it's much simpler. So, for example, you know, not everybody at a lower community level can throw five meters into a line at the back of a line Does.
Speaker 1:The five-meter line? Is it really important in community rugby? Could it not be a two-meter line or a three-meter line? So you don't have to throw it so far sometimes and you spread out the line out options. You've got more space. It might make it less more dependent. Because if you've got a spread out line out, you know, and you try to build them all and you've got players spread out along the distance and that takes a little bit longer to congregate them around the ball. So then you're going to play a one-man tackle and all that stuff you know. So you know things like that should be discussed and talked about. Um, you know, and how we can create you know the. The principles are still the same, but we create a slightly different product there to allow for more innovation and more and more sort of um well, a better experience across the board for players who are not quite as skillful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I actually love it. Mike. I actually think you could almost argue that the coaching at community level two needs to not have a professional lean to it. It needs to be catered for community stuff. I've seen it a lot myself where community younger age group coaches are trying to coach the way you might potentially coach a professional team and almost the fun and enjoyment aspect is sometimes lost because we're driving somewhat professional standards. Hey, Mike, I think we'll call it a day here. My friend, it's been a solid hour and that's kind of I know you've got things to do. You've got a gazillion family members over at the moment, so I'll let you get back to them. Mate, you are one of the guys. Every time I talk to you, I walk away feeling better about myself. Mate, You've just got a disposition which is just incredible. And, mate, your wisdom is epic and epic. And, mate, your experience is epic too. And, um, yeah, thanks for your time today thanks.
Speaker 4:I'm honored, honored to be asked to contribute.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much here are my final thoughts from a conversation with Mike. Number one create a cause to fight for. Mike used the example of poor newspaper article press in order to create a togetherness, a common connection. When they were called a squad of rejects or super flops, despite that being a negative thing, they found it something to rally around and it's always great to find that central thing in which a team can come together around. Number two find time for you. Mike's personal experiences suggests you need to make sure, as a coach, you have time for you and not be afraid to look after yourself. And he suggests things like meditation, eating well, socialising, cold water therapy. And he says if you don't, you'll end up leaving a bit of you behind.