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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Dan Bowden: How to Coach Your Players Without Putting Them to Sleep
Dan Bowden's rugby journey spans three continents and multiple elite environments, from the Crusaders' player-led culture to Leicester Tigers' strict framework. Now, as attack coach for Japan's national team, he's blending these experiences into something uniquely effective.
Standing in the coach's box after Japan's stunning 24-19 victory over Wales, Bowden wasn't simply celebrating. He was already analyzing what they could improve. "Don't get me wrong. It was wonderful, but we played poorly," he explains. "We're one of the best attacking teams in the world, top three for most metrics. However, on the weekend we conceded the ball like eight times from first or second phase, which is extremely poor."
This unflinching commitment to excellence led to an unprecedented decision: training the morning after their victory. In Bowden's entire playing and coaching career, he'd never seen a team return to work so quickly after a test win. But preventing complacency was paramount.
Bowden's approach to coaching challenges conventional wisdom at every turn. He's revolutionized team meetings – replacing seated, lecture-style sessions with stand-up gatherings featuring games, mental primers, and focused video analysis. "I hate meetings, I hate sitting down and every kid hates sitting in the classroom. So I don't want a rugby environment to be reminded of sitting in a classroom."
Perhaps most fascinating is his method for building player ownership while maintaining clear direction. "I gave them three options and they chose the one that they wanted. So they feel the one they chose was the best one. But we've co-designed it. They just don't realize it."
In navigating Japanese rugby's traditionally compliance-based culture, Bowden builds relationships away from the field. Taking players to lunch with a "no rugby talk" rule creates deeper connections that allow for meaningful challenge later. This balanced approach – combining structure with autonomy, challenge with support, and tradition with innovation – reflects his central philosophy: there are many ways to succeed in rugby.
Ready to transform your coaching approach? Discover the practical strategies that are reshaping international rugby and could revolutionize your team's performance.
I hate meetings, I hate sitting down and every kid hates sitting in the classroom. So I don't want a rugby environment to be reminded of sitting in a classroom. Our role as Japan first, we have to put the greater good of the group ahead of yourself. So if you're not selected, your role is to help prepare the best right. So you're there to challenge. You're there to help us grow. I think schedules are so important because it leads to team harmony. Now, other people don't have the same view as me. I gave them three options and they chose the one that they wanted. So therefore, they feel the one that they chose was the best one. But we've co-designed it. They just don't realize it. Don't get me wrong. It was a wonderful, but we played poorly. We're one of the best attacking teams in the world. We're in the top three for most metrics. However, on the weekend we conceded the ball like eight times mate from first or second phase, which is extremely poor.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Dan Bowden. He has experienced cultures all over the world as a player Three super franchises the Blues, crusaders and the Highlanders, four European clubs London Irish, leicester Tigers, bath and Parma in Italy and one Japanese club, yamaha. Currently, he is now the attack coach for the Japanese national team who, at the time of this recording, have just beaten Wales 24-19. The time this will be aired will be just after the second test and it's an absolute pleasure, dan, to have you on in the midst of your successes with the Japanese national team as a tech coach to join the Coaching Culture podcast. Welcome, man Jami. Thank you very much for having me, my friend, it's a pleasure just to chat about some things that everyone is passionate about. Yes, now to get us going, when I just read out some of those things, mate, your cultural experience around the world has actually been phenomenal, mate. Like you're a traveler, a gypsy, yeah, an itinerant, some would say. I reckon, mate, that's been a really, really blessing.
Speaker 1:In disguise, as a player, I managed to share many different environments, many different people, many different coaches, styles, cultures. As you say, if I look at, I, went from some extremes, like a team like the Crusaders, who are heavily player-led. Then we went to Leicester Tigers, as you know, and there was no, really really no player involvement, but you knew exactly where you stood and the foundations and DNA of the club were so evident every day, and Cockers had done such a wonderful job as a leader to paint the club's picture. This is what we are, this is who we stand for, et cetera. So, and then in between I know I spent some time at Irish and Bath and obviously a ragtag bunch of boys the Hollanders at one stage and then the Blues, mate. It was really different times of career, really different experiences and really enjoyable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what did you take away from some of those Any standout things that you took back as part of you? I do, mate, I think, two things. I was lucky enough to be coached by many different coaches who have probably helped shape my coaching philosophy, because there are many ways to do things, and that's one thing I learned coming from New Zealand. We were quite stubborn at the time that this is how things should be done and this is what success looks like. And what I learned really quickly was there are many ways to be successful and if I use the Leicester Tigers example, I'll never forget, mate, like I played a game for Tigers at home I think it was against, might have been Sale. As an example I'll never forget, there was a five-meter scrum. They had two players in the bin, a back in the bin, then a back went on the scrum. There was like seven resetted scrums. Then another player got sin bin. We could have walked in on the corner with like maybe four on one and we then eventually got a penalty try. And I was just thinking to my head yeah, well done to Coley and Castro and Boris Dankovich and Tom Youngs, but that was Leicester, that was the way and you had to accept that was the way and it was a blueprint for success. So I learned there are many ways to do things and there are many ways to be successful. I also love as a funny sideline to that, lester's ground is, I think, about six meters narrower than any other field to to help out the way they play. So you're not going to be running. Yeah, we weren't made and as you say, it was really um evident to go into different environments where things were done a certain way, and this was the Leicester way and it was. When you look back on it now, I really enjoyed it and they were very successful for a reason. So you've got to give credit to those who had already, like, laid the foundations for that.
Speaker 1:Did you find it easy to amalgamate with every new place you went to? Or was it a bit of resistance from yourself? No, no, no, not so much. I think I'm quite a jovial character, maybe, so I sort of tend to fit in. Okay, others will probably say no, but I think I tried to go with an open mind to a lot of the places. Like I knew Leicester would be different.
Speaker 1:I'd come from a team, london, irishish, where I was club captain at the time. Uh, we had some really good years, successful, but not top four. We were top six and managed to play, uh, heineken cup in those days. Um, but we had a very, very opposite mindset. It was attack at all costs, wide to wide. Um, I worked with toby booth and mike, who were outstanding coaches in their own right, and we had a real New Zealand influence. So the way we played a lot of Polynesian players, salala, mapusua, salositani, thakambel, alva, seve, ali'i, dallin, amatij, topsy, ojo, so our back line was very expensive and that's how we played, and it was a really big contrast going to another place and then, when I look back now, learning again, there are many ways to do things, and particularly for you as a first 5'8" number 10, who is essentially the fourth coach. There's three coaches. The 10 is generally the fourth coach, the person that's the on-field driver.
Speaker 1:How did you negotiate that sort of dynamic where you're coming into new environments which are so different and, as the general on-field, how do you adjust to that sort of cultural difference? There is some give and take, mate, and I learned quickly that you're not always going to be right. And if I use another example, I went to Yamaha after being at Leicester and having success at Leicester, then going to Yamaha, who at the time were so stripped in the way they wanted to play the game. And I remember sitting down with Mosetui Ili'i, who was a bit of a Yamaha legend, former All Black Crusaders legend and he was just saying to me you've got to pick your battles, because some things are not as important as others, and which one do you want to? Um, you know, put your head on the table and really make sure it's done a way that you think is the best, and others you're going to have to learn to let some things go. And I thought that was really sound advice. Anything in particular stand out that you had to let go, which grated you at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just some of the attack shape mate like so you know, being, as you say, the sort of the attacking mindset, and I wanted players to run square, or what we say, you know, down to the inside shoulder, and they were just non-negotiable about like a over's carry, and you had to just run basically 45 degrees and submit and place the ball on the ground and I was just like what if the space is directly in front and what if the space is over there? They were like no, no, you must do this. And I was thinking, oh, wow, so I learned that with the length of training time and some other battles, what was most important, what could we get the best result from? And there were some good discussions and a guy that I know really well now, um takanobu horikawa, who's still a head, one of the coaches at yamaha. We still have these discussions and he was actually in at the camp only last week, uh, for japan, and we just I reminded him about the discussions we used to have and and, uh, where we landed on was sort of a middle ground, uh, jami, yeah, well, horikata is a great man for getting out there and amongst a lot of different teams in japan, and he's a very good coach, isn't he? He is yes, yes. Well, mate, I love that way.
Speaker 1:You've just sort of round up many ways to be successful in picking your battles knowing when to concede and when to drive hard. How has that sort of led now into your coaching journey, do you think? Are you conceding battles with players? Are you picking battles? To be honest, it's probably not so much with players. I feel I have a really good understanding of what players need. I have a lot of good, challenging debate and I think it's healthier, if I'm honest.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have a really good challenging, robust conversations here with the other coaches and staff and they have very different experiences to mine. As an example, some of these coaches are much older, um, some of them have been international would be a lot longer than me, um. So I often ask why? Why are we doing this? Is this the best way to do this? Um, and then they will firmly say yes, this is the reason why, and it's backed up by good data. And then then I say, okay, yeah, cool, that's a really good point. That's a good lesson for me. Or I'll say have we thought about this? Could this be done better? Can we go from an example of starting a session a little bit later? Can we have more time in the morning for a clarity walkthrough? As an example? And I think it sort of tends. It finds itself in a happy place, but at times, mate, you have to have some difficult conversations.
Speaker 1:So currently with Japan, obviously Eddie is the head coach and robust discussions. Is that part of the daily environment? Absolutely, yeah, daily, absolutely Daily. Daily. Eddie obviously himself has the final say, matt. He is vastly experienced and knows exactly what a camp preparation looks like and he will make the decision, but he does ask for advice. There are a couple of other senior coaches as well who have been in international rugby a long time. But it's good. It's a good, healthy debate because there is a different dynamic in terms of age. So I feel like they have a really good understanding of what seven, eight, nine, ten years of international rugby looks like.
Speaker 1:And then I'm sort of speaking maybe from a newer set of eyes or a lens. That's slightly different, because I'm newer to international rugby and I ask questions and they are really good at either saying yes or no or why? Yes, and are all the coaches always aligned? Or is an element of knowing when to say that's enough, I'll disagree and commit? That's a phrase. Yeah, absolutely. So there is a line and you have to say okay, yep, I understand. Or someone puts a foot down and say, okay, yeah, we can all agree what I say, but this is the way it's going to be done. And the disagree and commit language definitely comes up.
Speaker 1:Yes, and having seen some of those rooms firsthand, mate, it's not for everybody, is it Like in a normal world, not everybody can enjoy such robust discussions. Is the nice way of putting some of those discussions right. It takes time, it takes a certain personality to be able to absorb that and not take a lot of it personally, right? Yeah, that's right. You have to understand. It's for a good reason, it's for what everyone thinks is best intentions and it is to ultimately get the best result we can for the group. Yeah, and talking about best results for the group, the Japanese national team is, just after this has been recorded, just before the second test against Wales, the first one you won 24-19, unbelievable result. And, mate, run us through that feeling. How was it? Because that's an epic tier one victory, which is just sensational.
Speaker 1:Run us through the week leading up to it and how you approached it. The week leading up to it was really well planned. If I'm honest, and if I look even even further, uh, jamie, I think one of the reasons why, um, the success was achieved was we had an extremely tough uh, 20 day lead-in until this test. So this was meticulously planned, uh, from the time we'd start training to the conditions that we were going to face in Kitaguchi, to our ball and play times, to you know really, really well, and thorough planning of what the game would look like. Then, leading up to the game, something as simple as the warm-up. The warm-up that we undertook was extremely short and, again, really evidence-based as to why we do this and how we do this, and I think it put the players in a really good position because they understood that there was going to be some real challenging parts of the game.
Speaker 1:And we tried to go into that real dark space in training on purpose, knowing that there was going to be times where we would have had no momentum under the pump, which is exactly what happened in the game, mate. We went down our yellow cards, things were not going the way. And then, uh, what we did at halftime? We had practiced a reset strategy so we knew exactly what to do at halftime should the circumstances be what they were. And then it was so pleasing as a coach to see the response post-halftime and to obviously then go into the lead and then close out the game. I'm not sure if you've seen it in detail, but we had to hold on to the ball for near two minutes towards the end and again, the detail that we had to put into that to close the game down. We literally knew the game would be tight and we talked about the last 10 minutes, what the 10 minutes was going to look like. So a lot of planning went into it. And so because you predicted it would be tight, based on what you gut feel thought would happen, and then you actually trained it. So your gut feel thought would happen, and then you like, actually trained it. So when it did happen, the boys just fell into knowing exactly what they had to do and it was done.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, man and you look at coaching and everyone's got their own ways of doing things. But, um, there's like there's the beauty in the messiness, like just training some days and, for example, earlier today, our training wasn't pretty at all, but the reason why it looks like that is if the players themselves have to provide solutions, so you've got to then provide a solution as quick as possible. Rugby is not like basketball, where you can take a timeout and then, as a coach, I can sit there and draw on the whiteboard. I want you to do this, this and this. You know x's and o's. We've had to have had that done during the week, and if you build an environment where players can make the best decisions they can with the information that they have, then you've done a good job. Wow, yeah, so like you actually.
Speaker 1:So when you're talking about this meticulous training, you're actually putting in chaotic, messy situations into that meticulously planned session Absolutely, so the session is actually called chaos. There is a block in our. We as a coaching group, we design and I lead this particular block and we make it really messy. We make it really difficult. We'll emotionally challenge them, jamie, which is one of Eddie's great strengths he is obviously a very deep thinker and we can emotionally challenge. We'll penalize someone on purpose multiple times so they're in the red and then they've got to defend from a situation that will simbin somebody and we'll make it super challenging on purpose. Oh, so you'll sit down or either you'll target one or two players and go I want to get this guy in the redhead because, for whatever reason, I expect he'll get in the redhead and I want him to just feel it, know it and then come up with solutions on how to fix it.
Speaker 1:That's a designated thing further, and then we plan like, what does a reset strategy look like? What does it look like? So, um, without giving away all of our secrets, we're trying to explain. Um, so the head of best in c is a guy called john prize, really big on uh, nasal breathing. So there are techniques to again, this is not my specialty, but it's around to lower the heart rate is obviously like a double nasal breath. They obviously then have a reset. It might be a physical strategy where some would remove the mouth guard, deep breath, put the mouth guard back in. That's when, like a boxer, does you bite down on the mouth guard. So next job Others have a physical movement that they will do. They might touch their feet on the ground just to reconfirm where they are, be present in the moment. Okay, now my next job is, and so you design these chaos and these stress situations. So then you can say, okay, boys, go to your reset strategy, and then the boys have it, because you've talked about it, you've discussed it, and they can just go bang into that. Yeah, exactly. And, for example, mate, this is being released after the test, so at least my secrets will be done by then.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, at half, that, I'm sorry, at half time. So, uh, at half time I just the way we do it was they have a break for the players, then I bring them in. And I just outlined, mate, that everything possible that could go wrong had gone wrong. So, but the great thing is that we had planned for this. We were down 19-7, we'd had 31 position, we scored off a line-out special and then we turned the ball over five times off the next set piece, which is extremely unusual for us. Yes, and then all I said was, hey, that's okay, so we're going to have position in this half. And what are we going to do it from these first two plays? Okay, here we go. If we that, are we comfortable that we'll score points, yep, great.
Speaker 1:Here's a video clip just highlighting the exact picture that we planned Bang, we go out, we execute straight away and then we score. Wow, mate. So this is some real heavy coaching stuff in here, right, mate? Like at halftime, you acknowledge what's happened, whether that's good or bad, and then you move on pretty quick and then you confirm just to say, hey, nothing unexpected here, we were meticulous about this. And then you back that up with showing video of what you're going to do next, correct, I'm really big on visual learning. Yeah, I want them to see what they can see. So then, like, like younger players, mate, they're all the same. Like they've got an attention span of a goldfish, right? So they want to know. So, instead of a whole bunch of words, as you know, that have to then be translated, you know, a picture says a thousand words. Here's the picture. Okay, look at it. Is the space where we thought it would be? Yes, can we execute that? Yes, what's the key to that? Okay, they give the solution, they give the answer. Let's execute that. We'll get two or three opportunities. Let's execute, let's score.
Speaker 1:Your halftime messaging actually seems really uh, detailed or not detail-based, but really instructional rather than emotional. Would that be a fair, fair statement of how you come? The first thing I ask is what are you seeing, what are you hearing? What are you feeling? So it's the very first thing because I'm not out there. So I let them share with each other what they see, hear and feel. Why is that important? Because I want to know what they feel. It's not what I know or what I see, it's what they do.
Speaker 1:Yes, because they could be feeling something very different to what you and the coach's box are feeling absolutely. For example, jummy, for example, I might be saying to them the line speed's passive, you've got more time to dig into the line. And they're saying to me geez, I feel like there's outside pressure, I can't get the pass away. And then instantly for me I've got the picture then loaded to think, okay, actually I might be able to challenge you here and say, look, there's a lot more time than you think, so I've got that already set to go. And then, by showing the video, is that almost sometimes changing the feeling that they're creating, like that example there, I feel like they're coming hard, but then you show them and go you're feeling something which is not true, your perception isn't true, look, correct. And then I'll ask but okay, that's cool that you're feeling that, but how can we change it? What information do you need? And then, obviously, you are asking or hoping that an outside back, for example, or edgelose board, say you've actually got more time. Hold your feet, give the pass, trust me, I'll be there. Oh, that's a good word too. Trust, isn't it? Shinjuru in Japanese, that's a lovely word. Is that a massive part of the halftime, that trust element? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:There's two things that I sort of go into halftimes with mate. Everyone will have different things and there are many more experts better than me. I. I try and leave them with the final thought to be uh, be brave, be courageous, because I I want them to be in a position where, um, execution is is okay, mistakes are going to be made, but I want them to have made that decision and be comfortable making that decision, and if the execution is wrong, we can live with that.
Speaker 1:How do you instill and reinforce that in a national team setup where winning is massive? It's a great question. How do you say that mistakes are okay at the highest, highest level of the game? I think I go back to. One genuine answer is if it's too easy at training, it's there's not enough challenge and not enough growth. If it's too hard, then the drill or game based learning that are designed is too hard, then we're not hitting that niche, which I think is around 70 30. So, um, what is challenging as a coach is when you're standing there like shit. 30 failure, that's a lot, but it's where, like the magic happens to you know steal other people's phrases the growth comes from the messiness and the chaoticness or the chaos. I should say, um, so it's not always going to be pretty, but they find solutions inside that love that.
Speaker 1:What about dealing with the, the public? Is this where eddie's got a good strength to like, like public sentiment? Is that? Like I don't? I have nothing to do with anything, mate, other than the rugby. What the public pressure or the expectation is? It's water off a duck's back. It means nothing to me because I'm just trying to do a job. I don't have any worries and I mean that honestly.
Speaker 1:Maybe Eddie fronts a lot of the media and obviously there are other external factors, but I'm trying to win the game on the weekend. But understand that this is a process. Yes, and it's also true, isn't it, that good head coaches absorb all that external stuff, so the assistant coaches can just be Hardcore on the ground and just be focused on Locked into rugby and not have to be sidetracked by this other carry on. And eddie's. Without a shadow of a doubt, mate, he deflects all of that from us, so the content's my focus. All the other noise, mate, nothing to do with me. You're good on the media though, right, mate? Thanks for radio, mate, thanks for radio. Oh, mate, love.
Speaker 1:And so obviously, in Japan it's a very cultural, different experience, did you? But before we get to that, actually, how do you define culture? That is a question we ask here and I'd love your take on it. Well, it's a very good question. There are many versions of that answer. I would say simply for me, it's a shared value. A shared value and a set of behaviors. Okay, and there are going to be some good cultures and some bad cultures, but they're still a culture. Now, I think how to answer that is a good culture is you walk into the building and you know this is the way it gets done here. This is how we do things here. This is the way it gets done. Love that. It sort of leads back to your earlier statement about there's many ways to be successful and likewise what you're saying is here many versions of statement about there's many ways to be successful. And likewise, what you're saying is here like many versions of culture, there's many versions to create culture.
Speaker 1:When you're walking into the japan environment, did you create it or was it already there, or are you building on it, or what's a bit of both? Yeah, I think a little bit of both. Obviously, it's a historical team. They've played, you know, for a long period of time, been to World Cups and had success, obviously 2015, 2019.
Speaker 1:What I find with younger players, and particularly Japanese players, what I've tried to do maybe A because of my personality and B I understand it's challenging is I try to really connect with them. I know everyone says this. I've just come from taking two players to lunch and just we have a golden rule that you can't talk about rugby. Yes, so you've got to, and we talk about everything other than rugby. So their life, their family, anything and I just try to make sure that we have a deeper relationship and a deeper connection so that when times are tough and I can challenge them, they know it's coming from a good place. And what would an example of that be? That's a really good question, without throwing him under the bus.
Speaker 1:Here I've got a really good version of Michael Leach. So you know, I try and make sure that out on training he is the role model. And he obviously is the role model. He's Mr Japan, but I tend to get stuck into him the most so that it's an example to other players that he can also be held accountable. Yes, and I think it's in a good way. I expect a lot from him but he obviously gives a lot. But it's also to show that if he makes a mistake, that's fine. He's going to be vulnerable enough to put his hand up and acknowledge that. So young players can see that. And then I challenge him about okay, what's the next job, what's the next task? How can we get a response? And again, I've got a really good relationship with him, so then he knows again, it's coming from a good place. Do you almost orchestrate that? You sit down and say I might do this to you at times and this is the reason to set the example for other players.
Speaker 1:Not so much in that one, jamie. That's more organic, to be honest. That one is again, because the relationship's there. You sort of have the right to challenge people. I mean that's more organic. Yeah, to be honest, yeah, that one is Again, because of relationships. There you sort of have the right to challenge people a lot. Then, if you don't really know someone, you don't know how they're going to respond. That's one of the things I learned really early.
Speaker 1:Coaching in Japan is that, as you know, a lot of players are very head down. There's a lot of acknowledgement, there's a lot of nodding without understanding, there's a lot of compliance without challenge. So I want to get to the bottom of the compliance. So understanding, look, respect is great, but I want you to grow. So in order to grow, you've got to ask questions, you've got to challenge. That's a big one in the culture of Japan Very challenging Compliance without challenge.
Speaker 1:So how do you sort of do you get someone like Michael Leach, the captain, you know, the most senior player to challenge you, to set the example that this is acceptable? Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, he does mate, and that's a great example. So he'll challenge me in the team environment in a really good way. He'll say have you thought about this and what do you reckon about this team environment? In a really good way. So have you thought about this and what are you thinking about this? And I say that's a really good point, boys, is it easier if we do it like this way or is it better if we do it like this? So then you get buy-in from the players, you get, you get some collaboration and design to what you're trying to achieve. Because, again, matt, it's not what I know or what, uh, I can see or what I can say, it's what they can say, it's what they can do.
Speaker 1:Have you been caught out by that before with, like a question which hurt the ego Not so much hurt the ego, mate, because I don't mind Like, if they think that's best, then and I think it's, yeah, that's a pretty good solution. Let's do it that way. They own part of it, so they're going to take more responsibility for it. Yes, okay, so do you throw it back on them? Well, if we're going to do this, you guys need to really not so much throw it back on them. I say cool, all right, that's a really good way. All right, my way was probably more complicated. Your way seems a lot more simple to get to the same solution. Let's do it that way. How does it? How do you work with that when you've got your plans that you've come up with, and then they sort of get thrown out.
Speaker 1:A lot of coaches would struggle with that concept like a full right-angle turn on a plan. Does that affect you? That's a really good question. No, not so much, mate. I try to be as open to their end goal in terms of I think it can move as long as we end up in the same sort of place, but how we get there it can be different, like that, the way I view it and the way they view it. We'll end up at the same point, but it might not be the same journey getting to that point. Yes, there's many different ways, correct. So, coming back to the start, there's many different versions of okay, we want to score after three phases, as an example, but I think it might be here, here and here. They're thinking it's here over there, then back to here. Okay, explain to me why. Okay, great, let's do it that way. Yeah, I love it, mate. I love that. Open to the end goal, that's a great phrase.
Speaker 1:And when you're talking about getting that collaboration piece with the Japanese national team, where it's normally traditionally compliance without challenge, how do you get that balance? Because obviously in Japan, a lot of Japanese are raised in a compliance-based educational system, and now you're trying to do something which is very different to that. What's the balance between going actually I need to be direct here and just say it and tell them this is what's it, because that's the form which most japanese schooling teaches versus your way, which is more collaborative and inclusive? There is a good balance, and don't get me wrong, there is. At times I say, okay, this is what we're doing. This is the reason why.
Speaker 1:But what I try to do is to um, give, maybe say three options, and then they will choose from one of the three options. So they've had ownership in it, but there's still the three options that I've given them. So it works both ways. Do you see what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you can work with all three. You can can say you can have one of these, you can choose any of these three, but I've given the three. Yeah, yeah, that's quite clever. That's that real middle ground, isn't it? So that might be flawed, I'm not sure someone, a better expert than me might be saying, but the reality is, I'm happy with either of these three, but which one they feel most comfortable with executing under pressure. Pressure, then they will choose.
Speaker 1:And do you give like? I would give my children options like this. I'd say, if I wanted kfc for dinner, I'd say, do you want broccoli, asparagus or kfc for dinner? And I, and even if they didn't really like chicken, they would always pick that one, right? Yeah, I'd be like, right, it's your choice, I'm just going to do what you want. Yeah, I tend to leave it as the last one. No, um, yeah, but it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:What I try and do, mate again, is, before we've got to this, I will try to lay some pretty early ground rules at the start of our boys. The expectation is the expectation is you challenge, you contribute, you engage, um, and a part of that, mate, is I don't hold meetings, probably in a real standard form. My meetings are stand-up meetings, so we don't have chairs. Uh, there's always some game involved. Uh, then there'll be a mental primer, then there'll be some form of a question that's related to the game to check for understanding, and then we'll look at two clips, probably two, three maximum pictures. Then we'll discuss in a small group and then we'll have a solution and ideally that's done in 67 minutes. 67 minutes. Six to seven. Six to seven. I was going to say Wow.
Speaker 1:So run me through what the thought is behind the stand-up aspect of those meetings. Mate, I hate meetings, I hate sitting down and every kid hates sitting in a classroom. So I don't want a rugby environment to be reminded of sitting in a classroom. And, if we're honest, jami, particularly in Japan, where they sat there and they listened to somebody read out and they fell asleep at the desk I try to make it involving. So the first thing we do is movement based. So we'll have some form of walking fun game or some contest, then into a like a brain teaser or into a picture of you know what's missing, some form of quiz then related to okay, how do we identify space? Okay, here's a picture of spot the difference, what are the three differences? Before you look at kick space. Ah, so you're almost, you're almost engaged, like creating an engagement factor first and before slapping in the rugby. So you're almost you're.
Speaker 1:When you say mental primer, you're actually trying to prime the engagement Correct and I try and do it. Again, I'm not an expert, I try and do it based on what we're doing. So if I'm doing a space identification task, I will try to make them, challenge them ready for on the screen, like a where's Wally? Or find me the three differences in these two donkeys and then we'll look for. Okay, where is the space on the field? When it gets that point x, what do you expect to happen? Where will the space be? Okay, excellent, so I tried to link it. Try to other times. We just it might just be fun because depending on where the meeting is and time of the day.
Speaker 1:So I'll tell you one thing I was just thinking now is that one of the biggest challenges I've seen is Matt. It takes me probably two to three hours to prepare for a meeting that will take two to three minutes you know what I mean or five minutes. One of the biggest challenges or one of the biggest things I've seen is mate. We here have a lot of older coaches. They can't ad lib or they struggle in the group environment, right, and I think what you see now is across the different codes of sports is you'll see the head coach being older and you see the assistants being younger. So, and I think the reason is mate and again this is only my piece is that theoretically, you should be able to relate to the players better.
Speaker 1:Like I played against Michael Leach, I've played against some of these players, so therefore you have more of a natural grounding and it's like presentation skills, I reckon Jamie, are so important. Like Matt, I prepare for meetings just as much as I'll prepare for on-field session, because in Japan and the meetings are short and the translation time that comes, you have to be so accurate. I went into a couple other rugby environments this year and the meetings are horrific. It's standing still one person like this, body language, cold, in front of like a, a group of players sitting on the ground, mate, for 30 minutes straight just listening, no two-way dialogue, nothing, and I'd say 95% of Japanese clubs are like that.
Speaker 1:Yep, I know, and where you'll be making great strides with these blokes is that they like the difference, like it's refreshing right when they hear a younger, more engaged voice that's lighting them up with interesting stuff. It has to get their response. Unless the players are so old school which they're not, because modern society, japanese people are not what they were. Correct, it can only be good man Like, if you go back to the old school, that's going to get resistance from the outset because Japanese society is changing. Like that right, like it just doesn't resonate, even in general, matt, in coaching. Like I tend to see it now a lot. It just doesn't resonate, even in general, mate, in coaching, look, I tend to see it now A lot of older coaches struggle with this part of the game or this part of either delivering or, you know, short messages, because young people can only take on so much before their mind drifts.
Speaker 1:Mate, something that I did I trialled in last year's campaign, I swear After like three or four minutes, I gave them a two or three minute break because I know that they're feigning to grab their phone and check like social media. So I gave them like a social media break, mate. I trialed it once. I watched the guy Sean McVay do it, for it might have been the Chargers or the Rams or whoever he was with and then I wanted to see what it was like and you know what I realized was I was in the same boat, I was waiting for a text from my wife about something to do with the kids and even though I was delivering and I was thinking to myself, if I'm the same, so are they? How did it go? Because they took a break, they checked what there was. They were checking on social media that earlier before the meeting they were all laughing about something and some hadn't had the chance to see it right. So then in this two-minute break they all got the chance to see it.
Speaker 1:Then the focus comes back. Boom, that's a really interesting piece. And then I thought, shit, their attention after that was really accurate. That's fascinating too. Here's another one. If, potentially, you could have registered and then put it on the big screen in the meeting so everyone saw it laugh together, that would be a really interesting cultural piece. That's a good example.
Speaker 1:I try to use live examples from the day with humour, like straight into the team meeting, like a lot for icebreakers or, you know, primers. We try and use humour a lot Because, deep down, whilst everyone thinks these japanese boys are shy, mate, they are just the same, so they laugh at everything. So I try and um, take the piss out of them and they take the piss out of me, and we get it up on the screen so it's good. Uh, yeah, yeah, that's, that's quite clever. So we're really lucky.
Speaker 1:We get to spend time with a guy called doug limoff, who's probably the best teacher in the world. He teaches, you know every coach and Doug is awesome around teaching coaches how to you know what are the best questions to ask, how to ask, how to frame what are the best times of day to have meetings? Where do you structure them like? There are a lot of many ways, um, and I try to be really engaging in those meetings because ultimately, mate, mate, when I was a player, I would hate to sit in a 40-minute meeting where you can't remember what the first thing was said. Mate, it's yeah, like some of the stuff Doug Limov does, you are like the fourth person on this podcast who has brought him up. International rugby coach has brought up this educationalist who is fantastic. If you haven't read his books, you've got to. If you're interested in building teams and growing leadership, he's number one in my book too. I gotta get him on the show because it's it's all signs of calling. But do you have him? Have you brought him into the environment? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, man, I was so fortunate I got to spend a week or 10 days with him last year, like in our environment. He'd film me, he'd film me, he'd film me deliver. We'd sit down, we'd go through and he'd be like I love this, or have you thought about this? And like delivery, jami, like tone, body language, like I like, there are lots of things that coaches can struggle with. And I don't know, mate, I spent some time in the media and maybe that was helpful. So I'm very comfortable in front of a room, right? So other people are not, and because I tend to take the piss out of myself 90% of the time, it makes you sort of on the same level as the players, right? Sorry, no, you go, mate. I was just going to say often I'll put up like a video. There's a famous video that Manu Tulangi is like absolutely cutting me in half in this game and it gets brought up all the time. But I just show it to the boys to show that you know, we're all human, we can all get exposed, and particularly me, manu.
Speaker 1:What did he pick up, wayne? What were was some big takeaways, some real aha moments that he pulled up for you. Specifically, he went dan, here's some gold dust for you. Any, any big learnings from this? Really good, like it's really good around the follow-up questions. So lots of people and including myself, you might ask a question that was either too open so you could be given 10 different answers and that's not what you want you want to.
Speaker 1:So then we looked at reframing and then, um, the two biggest pieces I think he gave to me were um, shape, your question, how you, it's really important. For example, I would say, okay, we are going to look at a defensive picture on the edge. I want you to focus on the body shape of the third defender, so it's narrowed right in, but you don't tell them the answer, they're just looking at the body shape. Then the clip will play. I'll say you're going to get to look at the clip one more time. Okay, now I want you to focus on his feet positioning. Okay, one more time. And then, ideally, then they've built some answers in their head. What did they notice? Oh, then get them to share to each other, because they're more open to share to each other than they are cold calling back to a coach in front of a group of 20 people that they'll happily discuss to a partner or a group of three and say, yep, I actually saw his feet were. He was inside shoulder, outside leg. Yes, he could swim off or no, he got stuck on the lead runner, etc. Etc. That was really good. Yep, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing that he gave was what's called a summary slide. So, no matter what, I'll never go into a meeting and I'll come back to this in a second but every meeting has a summary slide. So if you get sidetracked, or if the if the answers are not getting to where you want, or you've got to have a backup slide, he calls it a backup. So I call it now a summary slide and it's just what you wanted out of this and it's just like okay, the main message is this, and it might be. This is how we get to this. For example, the main message might be um, for a meeting, let's just say what have I used this week? Um, understanding the kick cycle, so you know the balance of running to kicking, receiving position. Um, did we identify the space, yes or no? Why? If we did, okay, did we execute the kick? Yes, no. So the summary slide.
Speaker 1:You might talk about whatever with your stand-up meeting. You'll show two clips and then, as he's suggesting, then you put on. The final thing you do is you just wrap it up with. There it is. There's the summary. Yeah, but the summary is of what you've talked about. So, in case you don't have to make up things on the spot. You've already planned right. Things on the spot, you've already planned right.
Speaker 1:So what I'm saying is so, from that two clips that you just explained, there's going to be some answers that you're looking for, and if they haven't given you the answers you're looking for, you can then put up the slide and say, just as a reminder when this happens this is what we agreed on, bang. There's the word translated English and Japanese. Also, if we contest, in the end we lose the ball. Just a reminder this is what we said we were going to do, bang, done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the last thing they're leaving with is the exact thing you wanted to Correct, and that's clarity. So they've had their say, we've all engaged, they've had a say, I've had a discussion, maybe, and then boom as we leave, ultimate clarity. So, clarity at the start, clarity at the end. Yeah, with the sandwich in the middle is the discussion, the dialogue in the middle. Yeah, and the dialogue in the middle, that's awesome, mate, really bookending the meat with two nice slices of bread, with two nice slices of bread.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you, jamie, just like, honestly, I just did a, not a podcast, I did an interview recently just with some people back at Auckland Rugby asking some questions about how to grow the community coaches into professional coaches, and I said two things that I would do the most would be people going into rugby have got to remember that like coaching is like teaching, you've actually got to get like, you've got to teach. And often rugby players retiring we go into coaching but they don't understand pedagogy, adagogy around. What are ways to teach children, what are ways to teach adults? They are different and it can't all be content like rugby content. Because I'll give you the prime example it's not what I know and what I'm saying in this Japan team, it's what the translator is saying. Yes, very interesting, the dynamic is so different, right? So if I'm not clear, concise and consistent, then I'm just asking for trouble. Then I'm just asking for trouble.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's, along with being clear and concise, there's also an element of spark or engagement? That's needed as well? Absolutely, matt. So I do like engagement. Today we play this game, we play a lot of games, but I enjoy, I have a lot of like. I think Sam Vestey is a world-class coach. I listened to the podcast you did with him and quite similar around like there's a lot of like. I think Sam Vestey is a world-class coach. I listen to the podcast you did with him and quite similar around like there's a lot of engagement pieces.
Speaker 1:We play a lot of games, mate. There could be games that like a primary school kid plays, but even as an adult, enjoyment and fun is still such a motivator, right, and I think we often forget that. I'll give you a prime example. We're a test rugby team. Yesterday we played this vision of hungry hippos, mate, like a primary school game, and the boys are losing it with laughter.
Speaker 1:Because the time of the meeting wasn't ideal. It was just the way the schedule worked out. It was after lunch. They'd been in a food coma. You know. They're all sitting there, just had a massive feed. They're tired. I'm like right, I needed to check for understanding. So the first thing we're going to do is play like this. I made all the fat props go in the middle, hold hands, chase each other in this room, mate. People are like erupting with laughter. It lasts for 30 seconds and then I bring them back in and okay, boys, we're just going to focus on this one objective, on this walk over. I just want you to be really clear. What did we discuss this morning around body hide into contact great, even in clarity walks. Right here I want you to be really hard on each other, remind each other. Can we do that? Yes, and it lasts five minutes, matt, and then we're done. I love it, mate. I love it. I love that engagement piece because I think it's it's absolute gold. I'll give you an example too, because you've just sparked something in me.
Speaker 1:Is like that teaching element you talked about. Like in a school, all teachers teach from the same maths book. It's the same content. However, we all know some of those teachers are better than others. It's not the content that's making the difference, it's how they're delivering it. It's everything about them, their style, their personality. This engagement fun piece makes them a better teacher, not the actual content, because everyone's got the same textbook. Same applies to rugby and probably implies to absolutely anything you're leading. I would imagine Absolutely absolutely, and I did a lot of PD in this off-season.
Speaker 1:I went to a lot of different teams. I'm based in Australia, so I went to a couple of AFL programs. They've got a big squad right, so big and what they do is they're really clear. If the meeting is very short. They will have a real team meeting with highlighting one maybe emotional thing, one maybe content piece, and it lasts two to three minutes. Then they break into small groups. And then I went and spent some time with the Melbourne Storm and Frank Panisi, craig Bellamy obviously very well documented and highly regarded program, and just the foundation was simplicity and consistency.
Speaker 1:And often now coaches get caught in this position where they want to use too many words and they want to speak for too long and if it can't be summarized in one sentence the purpose of the meeting and what the objective was and how we're going to achieve it, then it hasn't been successful. Yes, how do you check that? That's right at the end? You just check for understanding. Okay, remind me.
Speaker 1:What is the most important message that we discussed? Okay, great. Now why is that important for the weekend? Great, what do we expect this to allow us to achieve on the weekend? Good, who's going to hold you accountable for this? What information do you need, mate? I love it. If your players can't recite back to you the key message that you wanted to get across in one sentence, you're being too complicated, correct, mate? I love that, love that. Righto mate, talking about messages going forward. I'd love to know the messaging that's been delivered. Obviously this will go out post the second test. I'd love to know after the first test, you've just had a stark one against wales and I'd imagine excitement, the change room emotions are pumping. How do you address that? Now, leading into the next weekend, you've got the same team who will be pissed and trying to rectify things. That's a great question and this is without doubt.
Speaker 1:I hope the result for us is positive on the weekend, because what I'm about to say is extremely unusual. We literally celebrated and said great, this is amazing. Marco Aliccia said this is one of the most proudest moments for his career. There was a lot of emotion. Maybe Favosic players were meant to make their debut. Really unusual. We had three players not into the field, so the whole front row played 80 minutes. So a masterstroke, yeah, by Eddie.
Speaker 1:He acknowledged that straight away. He acknowledged the effort of the group, the wider group, right, so the non-23, the players who had the high of emotion of being a part of it but not actually playing in the field. So acknowledging the elephant in the room. First step. Look at things, ami. We trained the very next morning, the next morning. Yeah, so you know what a test week looks like. You know what rugby looks like, mate Complacency gone. We train the next morning Ooh, what was the psychology of that?
Speaker 1:For that same thing. This could be the catalyst for something special. Okay, once off may be considered lucky, but if we can build enough belief and we can have enough courage and we can win two tests in a row, then we are at a real strong foundation for the next two years. Ooh, is that how it was pitched? We have a duty for the next two years, not so much to the playing group but to us as coaches. We are thinking, okay, this could be the start of something really good. So obviously, we've got just a two-game series, matt. It's really unusual. Then we have a six-week break and then we play the PNC.
Speaker 1:But, as you can imagine, the coaching discussion was like if we can do this, the belief that would be built and, uh, yeah, the confidence that we can gain from this. So, in order to do that, let's not allow complacency, let's address it straight away. Uh, let's go back on there and fix. And if I delve into a little bit of the reason, why is yes, we won the game, mate, and don't get me wrong, it was a wonderful occasion to win, but we played poorly From my point of view. Again, I'm going to sound like I'm pumping my own thighs here. Statistically, we're one of the best attacking teams in the world. Okay that we're in the top three for most metrics.
Speaker 1:However, on the weekend, we conceded the ball like eight times, mate, from first or second phase, which is extremely poor, and I was really keen to rectify that the next day and let's learn as to what went wrong. How can we get a solution so that we don't make the same mistake again? Oh, I love it, mate. And how was the buy-in from the players? Were they ready for that? Yeah, they were.
Speaker 1:I was surprised. I've never been in a team in my entire playing or coaching career that's trained the next day Very foreign to me. How was the body? Yeah, but I agree, physically. So it was very, very low level, but it was just the planting, the seed of mentally amazing. We won, but we could have done better, and these are the solutions to the problems that we incurred.
Speaker 1:Wow, man. What I love and Eddie's no stranger to this is he's prepared to just buck any norms out there, isn't he? Because, ultimately not training the next day, is just a norm that we've all fallen into right. You can imagine what it's like for me, mate, and this is I mean hand on heart. This is like not to hide anything. It's obviously very challenging because the portfolio that I run there's a lot of review preview to get ready for the planning. That takes time, correct. So, mate, we were up all hours trying to get in store ready for the next day, which is 48 hours early or 24 hours earlier than expected.
Speaker 1:So we did a great job as a coaching group, I felt in honesty, and then I thought the players buy in an attitude to. It was excellent, because we pride ourselves ourselves on a few execution things and we were below par. How much hours sleep did you get? Yeah, not a lot, mate. I can't imagine it was a lot. Yeah, not a lot. Who said sleeping was for coaches? Man, you've been seven years in the role. That's right. I feel like seven years. It's actually just seven weeks. Yeah, exactly. And how's the week been then? So you had that is any other difference this week. So you've had that sunday session and then what? What's the rest of the week? How? What have you done culturally to to keep reinforcing that non-complacency, a lot of enjoyment.
Speaker 1:So we've tried really hard now because, as you know, or as say this, excuse me the psych for players can be oh, we're coming to the end. And a really key piece to that, mate, is that when you're in the first week, the players who are non-selected, like they, have hope for the next week because there's another game. When there's no other game, there is no further hope. What I mean by that is so then you've got to address that and say, look, our role in this is together. Our role is japan first. We have to, uh, put the greater good of the group ahead of yourself. So if you're not selected, your role is to help prepare the best right. So you're there to challenge, you're there to help us grow and what we have done is try to include everyone as much.
Speaker 1:Like I just said, I've just come from taking a couple of players out for lunch chatting about nothing to do with rugby, tried hard on connection pieces for this last week and then we have worked really hard on enjoyment. So enjoyment, little bits of enjoyment, little bits of connection, whether it's meals together etc. Just increase that time. Knowing that this block's coming to an end on sunday? Yeah, yeah, and is it a dead finish? There won't be anything after that Sunday, it's just done after that. No, that's six weeks off. And then potentially Well, I know the squad will get named For the Pacific Nations Cup. You'd like to think majority will be there, but there obviously will be injuries and non-selection etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and are you changing anything from the week before the week that successfully beat Wales, albeit not happy with the performance? Are you throwing things? Yeah, and are you changing anything from the week before the week that successfully beat Wales, albeit not happy with the performance? Are you throwing things out or are you just doing the same, but better? No, no, a little bit of the same, but better, a couple of tweaks. Obviously, tactically, you're going to change things from week to week, which every good coach does, but the foundations of our game are there.
Speaker 1:I think you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that we play extremely fast. We try and play a certain way, but we are really aware of the weaknesses, of where we are and we and the coaches have tried really hard to change the balance of where we sit. Yeah, do you actually look into? Do you focus on your strengths more than your weaknesses. As a group, we are 80-20 type program, so 80% of the time is spent on us, mate, is that right? So less previewing and more reviewing yourself. Not so much the preview, but what the preview? That's a really good question. This is a really good question, jamie, because a lot of teams do this differently and I've got a certain belief, belief and it might be worth sharing, for example. For example, like short, lancaster is one of the best coaches.
Speaker 1:I was fortunate enough to do some podcasts with them a couple of years ago and when I was a younger coach. You know you're trying to prepare the team the best you can and what that means is often you will preview, preview, preview and I wasn't the defense coach at the time. But the defense coach would like you to run certain plays against that the team may run. And I would just constantly argue and say, mate, no coach like me is going to use that same menu for six weeks in a row. They're going to change their plays. Right, because that's what you do. And then the wasted time that's for a player learning in someone else's plays to potentially play against your members at training it's wasted learning. You're asking them to learn something that's not yours, as well as your plays in a really time-congested week, congested week.
Speaker 1:So what we try to do is be as efficient as possible and not waste time on things. That the whales scored against us on a back peel, right? I highly doubt, and I could get made to look like a fool here. If they run the same play and score, I'll be really disappointed in us. But they will run a variation of the same play, because that's what I would do, so you're not.
Speaker 1:So let me just get this clear, because we're going to be airing this post, this game. You're not preparing for that same peel play at all. You're not even looking at it. You might be looking more at the variation which comes off it. Like you're thinking, yes, because the seam got exposed right, and the seam got exposed, um, but of a system error, sorry, was it an individual error or a system error? Now, if you have taught your team well enough, at any level it doesn't matter what type of play it is then the system needs to be able to cover that play. That's, in essence, what I'm saying, right? So, in order to test our team, I will either put in a picture that they've never seen on purpose. Or I will just run the same play that we have with a variation, because if they can't defend it, then they haven't prepared the system well enough. There's a bigger picture piece, so it's not the specifics you're looking at, it's the chaos, making clarity through the chaos of it.
Speaker 1:If this happens, how we do generally, this is our philosophy on this, you know absolutely so. Like um and and sure, lancaster was basically like when I was a young coach. He was like mate. There's a lot of wasted time trying to ask non-23 to learn an entire other team's plays as well as be good enough to learn your own team's plays in case they're playing and I was thinking that's a really good point You're asking them to learn double. So it's inefficient, right? So if your team, for example, gets beaten on an 11 play, carried to the middle of the field and then back to short side, then it doesn't really matter how you end up back on the short side, as long as you end up back on the short side. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, because whether there's like a dummy drop-off to you know two lead runners, to whether it's two passes wide to then two lead runners, ultimately it's the same Mm, mm. So again, someone who's far better than me is probably going to come back and tell you that's complete load of right, but I think it's really true.
Speaker 1:In a test week, when you're time pressed right, when you're in a club season you've got 36 weeks in the year you can look at a lot of variations of stuff, but when you're in a test week you don't have a lot of time. Yes, no, you don't do. That's a big factor in international rugby, isn't it? And Japan have more time Than most pre the games. But once you get to test weeks, it's a very different Approach, isn't it? Big change coming from, obviously, club rugby A couple of years ago into test rugby Is yeah, time, time is. Time is very Short and you always feel Like in the back of your head as a coach is there something that we haven't covered?
Speaker 1:But then you remind yourself that these are international players and they will make a decision and sometimes they're going to get it wrong and majority of the time they're going to get it right. Jeez mate, I love it. It's cool. It's a cool take. Majority of the time you're going to get it right. Jeez mate, I love it. That's cool, that's a cool take. Majority of the time, you're going to get it right. We're talking about getting things right and wrong, mate, I'd love now to finish with. This is the question we always finish with, and I'd love your take on this, because you will have something different.
Speaker 1:What is one thing that you have or believe in that you reckon some of your peers contemporaries would disagree with? About the game? That's about the game or anything to do with the game. No, no, let's put it right out there. Anything if I was to say in coaching, I think there's two things. I mean that's, I always have too much to say, so, tom.
Speaker 1:I think one thing is um, I think the schedule, the scheduling of a team and don't read into this about us, but just in general. I went to the Melbourne Storm and I don't think I've ever seen a better schedule designed than that, and I think the schedule is so important. And I remember when Big Fishy Tito was on one of the earlier podcasts and he talked about you've got to put time in your schedule. If you think things are important for example, connection piece do you have a shared lunch where they've got to stand up and talk for 20 seconds around, but do you actually put it in your schedule? I think schedules are so important because it leads to team harmony. Now, other people don't have the same view as me. I think schedules are so important because they've got to give some time in the day for rest and I'm talking about staff and players and I think a full day off is really important because everyone needs a mental and physical refresh. And I think that schedule is really often overlooked in teams.
Speaker 1:And the last one is this may cause some issues. There's a real misconception around um, what player led looks like so, as you've been in the team and we've all done it, oh, let's get a player up and he'll talk about this clip, uh, and then that's him. That's him leading, and then players are leading. I feel that's him. That's him leading, and then players are leading. I feel that's false. There's a real good saying. I don't know his name. There's a famous basketball coach and it says that you know players play and coaches coach. And yes, you can argue that Cameron Smith, billy Slater, you know Cooper Cronk those who understand rugby league. They did a hell of a lot of coaching. But my point is a coach knows how to articulate the message to the room.
Speaker 1:If you're just having a player like, just point at the clip and summarize the clip, there's no teaching going on, so that might be contentious. So I really hope this doesn't come back to bite me. No, mate, I actually think it's really important because it's it's if you're not understanding how to do it. Player lead just looks like you're passing the buck right, like over to you boys, like if I've got my daughter's hand. I've seen that firsthand. Maybe it might be a young player who's come in and you're asking him to do something he's not comfortable with. Or it's an experienced player who's a wonderful player, wonderful athlete, but maybe can't articulate to the group the key message. So is that any better than just the person who is meant to do that doing it?
Speaker 1:Well, there's another argument here, mate. Another analogy which you just sparked in me is that if you were to say to your children right, I want you to lead the household, my six-year-old would be shit house and there'd be no dishes done and the ones that were done would be poor. Unless I am actually teaching and guiding them along the way and I would never expect it to happen overnight it would be a process which, ultimately, success looks like, once they leave our house, the skills that they've picked up through our teaching along the way is in them then. And it's not expecting the six-year-old to be brilliant at doing dishes at six, but in that same analogy that you've just used. So if they're at six years old, but they're going to learn how to do that over the course of teenage years and then into adulthood, you can't expect the player to learn that in a three-week block, exactly right. So how are they going to be able to facilitate the room and to, if there is a question that's challenging, and say, oh, but what about this? And they don't know how to deal with that. How is that helpful?
Speaker 1:And the other piece, dan, is a lot of coaches would try this like this and it wouldn't work and they'd go. This is a load of bullshit. We're going back to a dictatorship and I'm going to decide how this is going because I gave them the opportunity and it didn't work. Clearly it didn't work. Yeah, so that's where I come back to that point before around, if you can shape it like they are making a decision, but it's part of the collab, like I said, whether it's right or wrong. I gave them three options and they chose the one that they wanted. They've taken some ownership of that. So therefore they feel the one that they chose was the best one. But we've co-designed it. They just don't realize it. I love that, mate. That's a good one, mate, and I reckon that's in part.
Speaker 1:A lot of what we're talking about here on this show can sometimes get misread as that simply handed over to someone else and say we're creating some player-led environments. Right, but that is not the essence of it. You've still got to be a great teacher, a great leader, a great coach, because that's your job. Love it, dan. What a pleasure to have you on the show Now.
Speaker 1:I would just like to take a little bit of a moment just to sort of sum up a couple of the things that I loved that you talked about today. Number one, mate, is coaching is teaching, and you talked about the phrase. It can't all be content. You've got to be clear and concise and you've got to have fun. You talked about the hungry hippos example and I bloody love that. And in relating to coaching as teaching, what we just discussed that misconception about player-led looks like You've still got to be the coach. You've still got to be the leader and guide them the way you guide your children at home.
Speaker 1:Number two if your players can't recite back the message of any session you have, you haven't delivered it clearly, concisely enough, and I think that is a really massive thing. Almost your elevator pitch, your elevator test and your own coaching, and a lot of the time it's a great question to finish your sessions with just to get someone to explain back simply what you just said. And if all the voices in the room say the same sentence, you're on track. If 50% don't, you've got things to work on. And number three and this is a cool one for the Japanese team is not being afraid to challenge convention as long as the reasoning makes sense.
Speaker 1:And the example you gave is around the no complacency. After a sensational test win, you then train the next day. You weren't afraid to buck norms around the days in which you train and you did it for the reason being you didn't want complacency in. It was that important that you're on to the next job immediately, that you're scheduled in a training the very next day to quickly snap and change your mindset to the next thing. That was important Back to work, as we say. Dan Bowden, what a pleasure. Thanks for joining us on the Coaching Culture Podcast. No problem, mate. Thank you very much for having me.