%20copy%203.png)
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Greg Peters: The Shift Every Coach and Leader Must Make
What does it truly mean to build an authentic culture in high-performance sports? Greg Peters, whose remarkable 25-year career spans leadership roles at Bay of Plenty Rugby, New Zealand Rugby Union, the Hurricanes, Argentina Rugby, SANZAR, and now as CEO of New Zealand Rugby League, reveals the profound insights he's gathered from both sides of the rugby divide.
Peters challenges conventional wisdom about leadership, arguing that culture isn't about "words on a wall" but something tangible you can feel the moment you walk into a room. "I see my job as a leader in sport as being able to develop talent on and off the field," he explains, emphasizing that genuine leadership means creating space for people to be themselves while understanding their role in achieving collective goals.
The conversation takes fascinating turns through cultural identity in New Zealand sports, with Peters identifying Māori culture as a unique selling point that provides unmatched foundation when properly embraced. He shares a remarkable story of how taking an Australian coach through a cultural journey transformed the Kiwis' performance, culminating in a record 34-0 victory against Australia. Through personal anecdotes—including his experience coaching a winless under-14 team—Peters illustrates how leadership philosophies must evolve from controlling everything to empowering others.
Perhaps most compelling is Peters' exploration of the differences between rugby and rugby league cultures. While rugby leans on tradition and moves slowly, rugby league responds quickly to fan preferences—yet when it comes to coaching approaches, the dynamic flips entirely. This duality offers valuable lessons about balancing cultural foundations with adaptability in any organization.
For anyone interested in leadership, cultural development, or sports management, this episode provides rare insights from someone who has shaped winning environments at the highest levels. Listen now to discover why Peters believes the future of effective leadership lies not in strategic planning exercises but in authentic human connections.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
To subscribe to the newsletter or to get a copy of the book, jump onto:
www.coachingculture.com.au
I see my job as a leader in sport as being able to develop talent on and off the field. So if we get that right and people go on to greater and better things, then I'm happy. Maori culture is a USP. Really, If we lean into that, we have a really solid foundation. They really deeply care about them and they want to protect them from the outside influences sometimes too much. You have to be able to create the space for people to be themselves and to bring themselves to the equation and enable them to have the freedom to do that.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, a podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Greg Peters, who's had a lifetime in the high echelons of the governance side of the game. For the last 25 years or so he has been pretty much boss of everything, Starting with the CEO of Bay of Plenty Rugby, worked his way right through New Zealand Rugby Union, CEO of the Hurricanes, GM of Argentina Rugby, CEO of Bay of Plenty Rugby, worked his way right through New Zealand Rugby Union, CEO of the Hurricanes, GM of Argentina Rugby, CEO of Sanzar, and now he's back in Auckland, New Zealand, where he is CEO of New Zealand Rugby League. He is an absolute legend of a guy and has a wealth of experience in both the governance and administration side of the game.
Speaker 1:Greg welcome to the show. Thank you, what an introduction. It's not quite a lifetime, but maybe half one.
Speaker 2:Correct. Well, for a lot of people, 25 is half a lifetime. Yeah, righto mate. Well, today's chat and I'll start, this is the question we start with is from your perspective and your role. How do you define?
Speaker 1:culture. Yeah, look, I've thought a bit about that since you posed that question to me, and I think for me it's a space for everyone and a place for everybody. Now, by that I mean you have to be able to create the space for people to be themselves and to bring themselves to the equation and enable them to have the freedom to do that. So that's the space part. And the place for everybody is they need to understand their role in achieving what the purpose of the organisation is, whether it's a team on the field or team off the field, or the totality of the organisation. You have to understand your place in that and be able to have that respected by the leadership in the organisation.
Speaker 1:And for me, culture is something I'm sure other people would say. The same thing is not words on a wall. It's something you can walk in to a room or an organisation and you feel it straight away. You can touch it, it's almost like it's there and it's real for you. And it's not words on a wall. You can walk into organisations and you see some people come up with a list of words and you think, well, actually that bears no resemblance to what I'm feeling in this room or this place. It's the real connection and the feel that you get from that and it's a emotive feel and it's powerful when you see it and you feel it when you've got a good culture.
Speaker 1:So that's a space for everyone and a place for everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. I love that Feel it, touch it. It's real emotive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has to be real and authentic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, and you mentioned that everyone has to understand their role in a culture. Would that be like a lot of where you are as the boss, the overarching boss?
Speaker 1:would that be part of your remit and to help people understand their role inside a culture, yeah, and I think it's empowering those people that work with you to be able to do the best they can and be the best they can. So that's my job. I've always said it. I think you probably heard it when we were in the Canes. Maybe you know I see my job as a leader in sport as being able to develop talent on and off the field. So if we get that right and people go on to greater and better things, then I'm happy Because it's sport right. It's all about people. In our context in New Zealand, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata it's people, people, people. So that's where I see my role.
Speaker 1:What I've kind of learned over time it takes a wee, while actually it takes probably half of my lifetime in sport is I should only be doing what only I can do. Now I've stolen that that saying, but that's really relevant for me. It's I should only do what only I can do. In other words, I shouldn't be. If I give you a task or a job or you're working with me and I've given you a project to do, I shouldn't be all over the top of you micromanaging that. I've got to let you go. Got to let you go. Give you the freedom to be yourself, give you freedom to bring you to that project. But then there'll be some elements, perhaps, that only I can do, and those are the ones that I should do not try to be everything, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Have you slipped into that pitfall before?
Speaker 1:Oh look, I think everyone starts there. I describe it as when you start your career and you may I'm not sure that it's the same for players or not, but it is certainly at club level so you try and do stuff really well and you do a lot of stuff really well, and that's you get noticed, right. And so you're playing in a club team and you get noticed, or I'm working in an administrator. Then you get promoted to be a manager and manager's fine, right, because you're still not quite in that leadership space. You're managing stuff still, or you're managing people doing stuff, and then suddenly someone says, oh, he's quite good at that, or she's quite good at that, I'm going to make him the CEO or I'm going to make him the leader of the organisation.
Speaker 1:And then you've got no training in this because generally you you fall into that because you're good at doing stuff. And then you suddenly realise actually I've got a team of people here, I've got to try and take them with me and I've got to try and give them the freedom to be themselves and do do as well as they possibly can. So I can't be all over them, and if I'm doing it properly, I shouldn't be because I don't have the time to do all of that. So you change your mentality and it took me a long time to realize this you know, when you knew me at the Canes, probably I was only just starting to get into that space Because you stop doing, stop just trying to be good at everything you do and start thinking about the people that are with you and how they're going to be good at what they do. So it's a full change of mentality, different thinking, yeah.
Speaker 2:It almost goes from I to them and that's your focus. Yeah, we the focus shift.
Speaker 1:Well, there's an old saying isn't there? There's no I in team. So that's as old as Adam and the apple. But that kind of mentality, if you don't believe that, if you don't believe that and you don't live that, then you slip into having to do it and I've seen it. I've seen it. It's an interesting model because in rugby league, where I am now, obviously the whole concept that we worked with 20 years ago in rugby leadership groups and spreading the leadership and the players driving the game plan is not so prevalent in rugby league still. But when it does get brought in, it pays dividends in spades. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I've seen it with my own Kiwis coach, michael Maguire. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying this, but I love him to death and he's gone. Now he's gone to the Broncos. Love him to death and he's gone. Now he's gone to the Broncos.
Speaker 1:But when he was with us to start with he wanted to do everything himself. He's got that nature. He kind of lives like many coaches, lives and breathes this thing 24-7. And to hand the mantle over for a part of the role was quite difficult for him, and particularly to hand it to a player's player group to actually drive that and it probably took him till we we put him through because he's Aussie. We put him through a New Zealand cultural ringer and gave him a lot of grounding. He thought he knew about culture. He thought he knew about culture because he'd had some of our Kiwi boys at Melbourne Storm when he was there and I'd say, I don't think you do really know.
Speaker 1:So we put him on a bit of a cultural journey and put him with Christian Penny from High Performance Sport, new Zealand and he took him on that journey and then in 2023, we had a change in the leadership group within the team.
Speaker 1:He had been through this process and we spanked Australia 34-0, which is a record against them, and so something must have happened in that space and I think that's part of the cultural journey that he was on in terms of the culture of New Zealand not the actual culture of the team, but that transfers into the culture of the team and into the leadership group of the team and the boys picked it up, picked that up and we had a wonderful captain in James Fisher Harris and he took it on board and led that group and Madge gave up some of his control to a wider group of people and that paid dividends.
Speaker 1:And that's what I'm talking about. You have to back off a little bit as a leader, because the temptation is to climb in all over the top of people because you think you know best and in actual fact you don't know best the answers in the room. Generally and I'm sure you've heard that one before you don't know the answers in the room and you've got to use the room to get the best culture and the best result.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's pretty awesome. What sort of stuff was he doing when you said he went on that cultural journey? We've got someone from the high-performance sport come in to lead him through it. Was it essentially a history of New Zealand or was it more understanding the power of teams and all that stuff? What?
Speaker 1:exactly did it look like? History is a bit sterile, probably for what it was it was deepening his understanding of the foundations of Aotearoa, you know, from a Maori perspective, and it's something that New Zealanders only really started to get to grips with, I think. But it's our USP If you look at words like whakafunangatanga, which means building and maintaining relationships and fostering belonging and really understanding the people that are working with you and where you're from and who your history is, and that's where our Māori culture is and Pacific culture is our USP. Really, if we lean into that, we have a really solid foundation and that's what I've learned over time from from being involved in in in a, in a code in new zealand, it's 86 percent maori pacifica. So you lean, if you really authentic about that and you lean into it, you get a great result and you're seeing that with with the warriors now, I think, because they they've got a really authentic cultural program and they've got a really authentic cultural leader and the captain and Jones Fisher-Harris.
Speaker 1:We look at the Canes and we didn't really do that and we didn't grasp that when you and I were there. If you think about, I think we had nine cultures in that team at the time we were there Nine different cultures, it was yeah, and we didn't harness that. We had all the talent in the world, we had the best players, the superstars, and we never harnessed that in a way to take that forward to win stuff. Right, we got close, made some semis, but we never won anything in that era. And we should have won a lot but we didn't.
Speaker 1:So you kind of look at that and I remember I can't remember if you were there or not, but walking into one of my first sort of aftermatch functions upstairs in a bar in Courtney Place after one of the games, and I walked in by myself and there was groups all around this room upstairs. I walk in, in front of me there's a group of Pacific Island boys that were in the team at the time. You know all they were and then over on another table there was the white Taranaki boys and in another table there was the Wellington boys, and then the coaches and management were at another table. Piriwipi was managing to dance around all of those groups as only piri could do.
Speaker 1:And I'm thinking, man, what? You know? There's all these little pods and groups of people. We need to bring this together, otherwise we're never going to be successful. So we should have been mixed. You know we weren't mixing, it was just a visual, I guess, demonstration of what I'm trying to say here is until you melded that together properly, we had a superpower that we didn't really lean into, even though we had a wonderful coach in Colin Cooper who was at it in spades Does that resonate with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's absolutely right. I think just that USP the unique selling point of your culture and I think it's a great statement to lean into it and harness the power of that. I don't think a lot of people actually do lean into it. You may observe it, but then to really double down on it and to make it your own, I think it's a powerful stat. When you're talking about you, look at the Black.
Speaker 1:Ferns Black Ferns is a really good example of that and it's not been critical of the previous regime. But when Wayne Smith came in and he brought with him a wonderful group of people, some of who carried on what, what a what a turnaround in that culture of that team um, to being smacked by 50 points, to winning the world cup at Eden Park. There you go and something I know. They leaned into the space but they didn't lean in it purely from a Maori's perspective, but they, they allowed everyone to bring their own culture to that table. But there was a foundation that was kind of New Zealand, a foundation at Zātira that meant something which is whakafunangatanga and manakitanga, which are really important principles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, you said one thing earlier just offline which kind of resonates with around this concept. When you're talking about the New Zealand Rugby League system at the moment and you talk about having had a history in just rugby but now you're in Rugby League and you're the CEO of New Zealand Rugby League a very strong Rugby League nation, and you talked about that it goes deep, not necessarily wide, in terms of the connection of the league community runs deep and I thought that was a really powerful statement. It goes in line with your usp. Well, can you just sort of elaborate on that sort of concept of a culture running deep within a sport, a high performance sport?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think. Well, rugby, did you start with rugby? So rugby goes through every level of society in new zealand. It's not like it is in Australia or England or Argentina or to a lesser extent probably South Africa, where it's an upper in those countries, upper class private school sport still largely it's through every level in New Zealand, but so that makes it harder to actually land on who you are.
Speaker 1:Whereas rugby league is 86% Maori Pacifica in New Zealand and outside of Auckland it's probably 90% Maori, so it's the Pacifica element of Auckland and 50% or over 50% of our people are in high deprivation areas. So you've got Maori Pacifica, high deprivation areas, so you've got Māori Pasifika, high-dep areas, and it's largely a working-class sport. It's followed by a lot of not working-class people now in New Zealand who are following the Warriors or following the Kiwis or following rugby league generally and that's growing quite dramatically. But they're not playing the sport like rugby union. They would have played rugby union in their youth or they would have sons playing rugby union now, but are following the Warriors and following rugby league over rugby union because of a number of reasons. So it goes really deep but narrow. So that makes it powerful because you actually we have a mantra in New Zealand rugby league that it's more than a game which is transforming lives and community wellbeing through rugby league. Rugby league is almost like a secondary part of that. It's what that can do for that community. And I think we were talking offline before. There's multiple access points. So you play rugby league because it's important to your community, because it's important to your culture, because it's important to your culture and and your country that your heritage, potentially.
Speaker 1:So you come along to these tournaments and you're playing for something that's bigger than just you. It's about your whanau, it's about if you're from tonga or samoa. It's about that as much as it is about playing the game um. And if you come to tournaments in new zealand, you can see that connection that you know we might have 10,000, 15,000 people coming to a Pacifica tournament in Auckland Crazy numbers. I've never seen it anywhere in any other sport and the connection that happens around that is about the culture of the coach.
Speaker 1:So, coming back to the topic of the conversation that drives so much about who we are and the culture, so it's easy to pick that up, or easier, pick that up and put it into another organization, into the leadership organization, nzrl, then it is perhaps to drive what's certainly not driven from top down. It's driven from bottom up. It's driven from who the people are and how they respond, and who and why they're there, their why. That's the big part. So if they've got their why sorted out, bloody easy for a leader to actually harness that and say, right, let's go with that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And how do you because ultimately, you're a high performance organisation how do you bring that community feel and that good? Why into then a high performing national body where you want to succeed and win world cups and things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you've got to keep I use the phrase walking in the mud. You've got to keep walking in the mud. You've got to be out there, you've got to be visible, you've got to take those people with you and week in, week out, figuratively and literally walking in the mud. But you've also then got to provide a pipeline or a dream, an aspirational dream for people. So, to be part of the Kiwis, we've got to.
Speaker 1:Really it's a challenging situation because it's not like rugby union where you lock into a country and you're pretty much locked, apart from if you change once and sit out three years or whatever it is. Now In rugby league I could have 10 players walk to Samoa tomorrow because they chose a different route. And that's one of the beauties of rugby league, because we're kind of spreading that international talent and we're building those. Tonga beat us last year by a point. They beat Australia a few years back because of that movement, not like we're housing all the players into an all-black environment or into a wallaby and they're stuck. Even if they only play five minutes of a game, they're gone.
Speaker 1:So that's one of the strengths. So you've got to sell that dream and we've got a real challenge in New Zealand because Samoa is on the rise and Tonga has always been recently on the rise. So we need to create the very best environment in the Kiwis to capture these people. It's not like, as I said, if you play a Super Rugby and you get selected for the All Blacks, well, it's job done right, not in our context. So you've got to have that culture.
Speaker 2:So you've got to actively build that Correct. Yeah, you've got to build that culture, or ensure that whoever's and does that fall. That's obviously the leaders of that team, but it's also like it's the coaches, yes, but it's every level of the organizations working towards building the culture, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you've seen in rugby how sometimes teams get pulled away from the organization because a coach has a different view or a different way of doing things. A bit of what you call it when you circle the wagons around the team and you don't want anyone else getting in there. There's a bit of that. But in this context you've got to be all in all in together, because we've got a short window of internationals, we've got a team that we've got to create the best environment for, so we've all got to work really hard at that space and pride ourselves on creating. So if there's a choice between Samoa and New Zealand, we want them to make the New Zealand choice, but it's not a given.
Speaker 2:It's interesting when you said that coaches sometimes circle the wagon like they just hunker down and say this is my team, no one else is getting in, and they put up barriers against all those external things. You would have seen it a lot of times, and I've seen a lot of times too. Why do you reckon that? Why do coaches go that way, rather than opening up and letting people in? What do you reckon that is? You would have seen a few times.
Speaker 1:It's a bit of well it comes under. There's a bit of pressure involved in that and there's a bit of the lifestyle of a coach or the life cycle of a coach too, where they are in that cycle. So the siege mentality, you've seen it, lots of people have done it and they get really protective and they care about their players. Generally they care about their players deeply and they treat them like sons or daughters and they really deeply care about them and they want to protect them from the outside influences sometimes too much. And I know when I was with the canes I I didn't really understand a lot about, I didn't understand anything about the cultures, the different cultures we had in that team, because I'd come up through christchurch and other places like that but I'd never really been, never really dealt into that cultural stuff. So I made a point of trying to get to know people and I think that's to the extent I could get to understand those people and where they're from. And you'll know the cases that I'm talking about without naming people, but the influences that families had on some of our boys at that time and what was going on in their lives and you'd see some of the behaviour and you'd think what the hell's going on there. And you'd find out later that there was something going on at home or within the wider cultural framework and quite different.
Speaker 1:So I tried to get to know and some people said I got too friendly with players. You know they criticised for getting too close to players. Well, I don't buy into that at all, because I look at some of the friendships I've still got and I'm only here because I know you probably, and I'm only here because I know you probably and you know. I look at that and I think, well, what's different? Why would I not treat you or any other player in that team in the same way that I treat someone in my office and get to know them and get to understand them and get to know about their families and want to get on with them? Draw the line. There's a line which you you got to be careful with.
Speaker 2:But I I just reject that criticism of actually getting too close to players. It's weird to think that would be a criticism, but I understand the sentiment behind that, like yeah, it's a back then. It particularly would have been quite a different thing in those days to start to get to know people well right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important. That's so much about the role. As I said at the start of this, you know everyone, a space for everyone and a place for everybody. You know, and you've got to create that space where people are happy and they feel valued and they feel more than they're, not just a number, right? So otherwise you're just like, you know, cattle in a farm, isn't it, which is a shocking thing to say but that's what it's like, right Prize cattle.
Speaker 1:You know no value other than what you're delivering on the field, which is such a shame. I think you've got to get close to players to understand who they are as people, to understand what the team dynamic is and how you can help within that, without getting in their way and without getting in the coach's way, without getting any too involved, but understanding and witnessing and observing, because you can walk into a team environment, any team, and you'll still be able to do it, and you say it doesn't feel right and you can get that within two or three minutes.
Speaker 2:I'd just like to just elaborate on that. When you walk into a changing room, you can actually feel something's not right. In a couple of minutes, would you be able to sort of just expand on what are you noticing in a couple of minutes? That gives away the environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think it's just a changing room. I mean, we can use the changing room as a kind of figurative example, but it's any workplace or any environment. You can feel it pretty quickly, in my view, and that's that. You've got to have your antenna up for it too, and you've got to be thinking about that the whole time, because that's the key to success, isn't it? We've already talked about the fact the foundation is a solid culture, and you can do a lot with solid culture. If you don't have that, you can't do anything.
Speaker 1:So we've sort of gone into that space and I think that you get that sense really quickly and it perhaps comes with a bit of experience. But you know very quickly how people are behaving to each other and particularly when things are tough, when teams lose or when business isn't going so well, how are people responding to that and how are people behaving? Because that's the true litmus test really. It's easy when everything's going well and you and that mass success masks a lot of cracks and a lot of cultural missteps, and you and I both know teams that have been hugely successful that may not always, if you dug deep into those teams, have that really strong foundation that they needed to, and ultimately, sometimes they get found out.
Speaker 2:Is there any of the things like from your position as essentially the boss, do you look at things and go that guy's doing something funny or that that that lady's doing something which she shouldn't? Is there specific things that you you notice rather than yeah?
Speaker 1:look at that every day. Oh yeah, that's my everyday life. So my, uh, my sort of role is, as I see it, is helping people be the best they can be, either on the field or off the field, but not obviously I'm not coaching the team, but I'm helping support the environment to ensure that they have the best opportunity. Everyone has the best opportunity to be the best they can. Um, and to do that, you have to be really, you have to be looking at people the whole time, so gauging your sixth sense about whether things are feeling right or something might be wrong at home, or you know they're bringing something to work or something's not going well with one of their teammates and and you can tell I mean you can tell within a team environment on the field, because it's pretty obvious, right, if things aren't gelling and and you're not, you know your team's not talking to your back or your. Yeah, that's pretty obvious, right it is, is yeah.
Speaker 1:But off the field, you pick those vibes up and that's you know. I'm not saying I've got it, I'm a master at it, but that's what you've got to keep working on. You've got to keep working on identifying those things, because that's the key. Sort those out, get your culture back on track and you've got a much better chance of success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? Like there's a little interpersonal sensitivities around reading people's interactions, those little looks, those little gestures, those little sort of quirky things that people can do and they don't even know they're doing it, sometimes right, and you can just sort of sense. Oh, that's an interesting response, and do you reckon it's just experience, like the more you're leading, the more you've got your antenna up, the better you get at it, or is there ways in which you can have you learnt it particularly?
Speaker 1:I think there's a certain amount that's in you. I mean people call it EQ or emotional intelligence, that's, you can certainly develop that skill, but some people again, we probably know a few that are completely devoid of that. Well, we'd like maybe that's our opinion, but we uh certainly examples. I'm sure we could draw on that that you'd think, wow, you know, he or she doesn't really have that feel. Um, and you know, if you find people in your life and I've been lucky enough to find those people that have that kind of feel, and you know one of them though Colin Cooper, for example, massive EQ, massive, humble man and led with that mana in our, in our environment, as a coach, right, um, special individual in my view, and I've come across other people like that in the, in all walks of life, but they're unique and special.
Speaker 1:But we all should aspire to that, because if you don't, I don't, I think you're missing a trick, and in the modern world, in the modern day, you can't be that direct to voter crap that you could. When I started work people, people could treat people completely different when I started my career, and so I guess you spend a bit of time through your career learning or picking up the best bits of everyone else that you've worked with or come in contact with or played with, or whatever it is you. You pick the best gold nuggets of those and try and put that into yourself and learn from the bad stuff as well why?
Speaker 2:why does it not work now? Why did that direct? What's the issue with it?
Speaker 1:these days, the expectation, the education of people, the maturity of youth, I think as well. It sounds different, but there were expectations on youth. When I was young, you spoke, when you were spoken to, you were told what to do. You went to those sorts of schools, perhaps or not, but there was always that kind of directive authority. And now we're a much better society. We're looking to open people up and make them involved, bring them in, help them be involved in the decisions and the way they want to lead their lives and also the way they want to perform within a team. We're opening them up to that conversation. Now that brings a whole bunch of complexities, don't get me wrong, but it's a much better ultimate solution or outcome than just the directive autocratic nature that it used to be 30, 40 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you notice it in your role?
Speaker 1:like the players, the coaches coming through are so different A hundred percent, particularly young people I've got working in my office. They are much more in tune with in my environment, much more in tune with culture in New Zealand and much more in tune with what's happening in the world. I think too, they've got quite firm views, or quite informed views of that, and they're challenging. They're not just going to sit back and take it. I think that someone told me the other day the average attention span for a teenager is about eight seconds, so you've really got to get them quick, otherwise they're gone.
Speaker 1:And I might add that I think it's for adults. It's not a hell of a lot better, it's about 16. But if you don't grasp the youth or get their attention early, they just tell you to take a walk right. So you've got to, and that's a coaching technique. I've coached kids. I've never coached at any high level, but I've coached rugby kids and the way I was coached when I was playing rugby which I didn't play to your level or anywhere near it, but I played rugby till I was 35 the coaching style that you now have to employ with young adults is completely different in this and the way you approach it and the engagement you have to get from them really quickly, otherwise you lose them.
Speaker 2:but you can almost even argue like as a coach. The generation's changed. Therefore, if you want to be a good coach or leader, you have to change with it.
Speaker 1:That's just the requirement 100 and and, like I, I came out of coaching retirement to to take a school team last year and I was. I was badgered to do it because my son was in the team and it was a b team team, um, so that they also ran the development team, I think they call it, but it's really a b team, let's. Let's be honest, um anyway. So I I did it and I was meant to be the assistant coach, but I ended up the head coach, because he's the head coach took off and it was me. With 22, 25, 14 year olds.
Speaker 1:Now that is super challenging on your own right and um, and I learned a lot about myself. We didn't win a game all season, been not one game right. So I thought at the end of the season, if I'm going to carry on doing this, I'm going to have to um go into a course. I went, for all my sins, I went and did a level two rugby course, rugby coaching course, which taught me a whole lot more about how you've got to engage youth. But the best thing about that is, whilst we didn't win a game all year, I had 22 players at the start of the season and I ended with 23. So I figured that if nothing else, that's a win to me and that's trying to build a culture, right. So I'm bringing it back to that Culture of losing, maybe but it was a culture.
Speaker 2:I love it too that the CEO of New Zealand Rugby League and the ex-CEO of Sansa has taken under-14s team and him to upskill himself by going to a level 2 course just to get through the season. It's outstanding. And it actually goes back to your statement about grassroots rugby, about the heart of the game is when those at the very top echelons are coming back and actually involved in the grassroots and the heart of it. It actually really empowers the whole chain, doesn't it? Guys at the top are also in that space.
Speaker 1:I reckon it's lovely and it's the most rewarding thing you can do. Really, One of the most rewarding things you can do in your life, I think, is with a group of people and trying to keep them together and trying to keep them engaged through a season and hopefully teach them just a little bit along the way. That's right.
Speaker 2:I like to phrase it take people on a mission, go on a mission with a group of people that's bloody awesome, hey. But I am interested in the statement you said earlier about how you got criticised for being too close to players. I think that's a really fascinating thing and I'd like to ask just what advice would you give to young leaders about coping when you're copping this sort of pressure around doing something you want to do and you're the backlash. You know external sources are sort of saying no, no, don't do it that way. How did you stand strong in the face of that sort of thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really. It's like any leadership position to a certain extent, you've got to close out the noise, right. So if you believe in something, you've got to stay true to what you believe in, and I believed that the only way we would have any chance of success that's back to the hurricanes example was that we needed to understand how to bring those five, six, seven cultures that we had within that team together. And we didn't. In my time, we didn't succeed. You know, we made semifinals but we never won the thing. It took till 2016 to before the team won and a lot of people moved on. We had all the superstars, you know all the names we had, but we never, never, nailed it, and I think that was the foundation.
Speaker 1:So I I needed, in my view, I thought, well, I've got to understand people and, as I said I was well, I think I said I was, um, you know, went to school in Christchurch. I didn't. I had a pretty closed cultural lens, um, from way back, and that was because of Christchurch being Christchurch in the particular schools that I went to. So I needed to learn a whole bunch of things before I could hope to understand the people that I was working with. So my view is I needed to do that and really understand people and not, you know, some coaches will do that too They'll understand their people, but I didn't see any difference between you, ben, or someone sitting in my office. They're all part of one team. So if I'm going to give that love to the person in the office, I should be giving that love to you, um, and and getting to know who you are and what drives you and what what your family is, situation is, um, and trying to trying to bring that in um as much as you can like.
Speaker 1:We had a lot of people obviously can't, can't be there for everyone, but at least if you've got an understanding of what's driving people, where they're from or who they are, I think you've got a better chance. So I went out of my way to do that and sometimes I was criticized perhaps for going too far, but I don't believe I mean, as I said to you when we were talking earlier, that some of those friendships I've still got I really value from that time and yourself included, you know you really value those connections that you made. We wouldn't be talking now, I don't think. Probably, you know, 15 years ago, whatever, 16, 17 years ago now, if we didn't have some sort of connection.
Speaker 2:I think that's pretty special actually and I think you did a really wonderful job on that. But it connection. I think it's pretty special actually and I think you did a really wonderful job on that. But it's lovely to see lee just brings it back to that statement you said earlier people, people, people. Yeah, yes, I love it. Now an interesting one which I'll be keen for you to just digress a little bit onto is, like, like in your role, like all that commercial side of the stuff, the game which you have to deal with, and and does that ever like there's always that question around the money, compromising the community and the connection in the heart of the game. Has that ever been a problem for you, balancing those two aspects?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a tough question, Nat, because I think that's a problem generally for the game and you're seeing it in rugby union. Now I looked at I looked at when I first started at new zealand rugby. We had 30 staff members, 1998, and we were turning over 30 million dollars. When I left to go to the canes, we had 100 staff members and we were turning over 100 million. And that was in 2006. So in that time huge growth and I would venture to suggest that the game was probably in those mid 2000s was as good as we've had it in that professional era, because we were still selling hurricanes, crusaders, we was 35, you know wellington, canterbury, you'd have 20,000 at westpac, and so we were in pretty good heart. And now, now you look at New Zealand rugby, it's turning over $270 million and I don't know what staff they've got now, but it's probably well over $200. And you think, well, where's that money gone and what's it actually done for the game?
Speaker 1:Massive question, because I'm not sure that the game is in any better heart and it's just been sucked into the system.
Speaker 1:And the other example I'll give you of that is when I was with Sansar and we did a massive commercial final, the broadcasting deal that was for 2016 to 20. We finished it in early 2015 and it was went up a hundred percent on the previous deal a hundred percent on the previous deal and was six600 and something million US global deal. And Australia and South Africa said great, we're done, we're going to put some money away and we're going to have a strategic fund and within two years, both of those unions were broke and New Zealand Rugby had a bit of money to fall back on. So you've got to say to yourself where's all that money going? And it's not really going to fall back on. So you've got to say to yourself where's all that money going? And it's not really going to improve the game, sad. So, yes, that's a very good question about how you can balance the commercial versus the grassroots and the actual heart of the game.
Speaker 2:If you had to put your money into a grassroots thing which is best bang for your buck, where would you put the money? You're talking rugby or rugby league? Oh, is there a difference?
Speaker 1:well where I would put more money in rugby league and where rugby union could put money. So that's the same thing to me. I'd like to hear one of each. Okay, so where I would put more money in rugby league is into the cultural basis. So 86% of rugby league in New Zealand is Māori Pasifika. We have amazing Māori tournaments that 6,000 kids turn up to. When participants turn up to adults and kids, 50% of those people don't play rugby league week in, week out, just roughly. They are basketballers or netballers or whatever rugby players. So they come to those tournaments because of the way that culture connects them. Now that's in Pacifica the same. There's 10,000 people turn up to PYC or Pacifica Youth Carnivals in Auckland Amazing, you know, and it's throughout the country. You don't see that in rugby like that. And that's the bit that's really unique about New Zealand, I think, right, the culture that we've got in New Zealand. So if you're putting money into grassroots, you know, invest in. For me, I'd love to be able to invest a lot more in those areas.
Speaker 1:Now, in a rugby context, rugby doesn't do any of that like that, right, and so I would be. Certainly, you know, I won't do any of that like that right, and so I would be. I would be. Certainly, you know I won't be critical of too much because it's a little bit hard for me and I can't roll to and I'm not trying to.
Speaker 1:I'm a rugby person, you know. I grew up in rugby. I've only had, I've had, seven years in rugby league but it's taught me a shitload of stuff that will stay with me for the rest of my life. But I um you, if you look at where Silver Lake, every club or every union got some money out of Silver Lake. Where did that go? What happened to it? What changed? So you've got to have a look at that and say where are you going to energise this? And in rugby context, the youth is where it's. The youth are walking. The youth are walking in my view, because I see it, it's the youth are walking. The youth are walking in my view, because I see it, because my son goes to Sacred Heart in Auckland. And if Sacred Heart wasn't a true rugby school and had a first 13 rugby league team and everyone had a choose, I know where they're going.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess the follow-up question to this, greg, is because not many people have your sort of lens, where you've been at the top of Sands R Rugby and New Zealand Rugby League. What is the big difference? What are some of the key traditions and habits that both codes could learn from the other?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think if you look at the rugby thing, it's founded on tradition, globally, new Zealand, history, ways of doing things, somewhat entrenched ways of doing things not necessarily responsive to, because it moves slowly, really slowly. Any change moves slowly because it's a massive machine. As you know, rugby league responds quickly to the fan Things. Like you know, rugby league introduced six again instead of having penalties, a whole raft of penalties. So instead of stopping the game, it just keeps on flying. Six again brings in fatigue very quickly. You know you get a much more exciting game. The fans like it, the fans are engaged in it, instead of being critical about the other game. Like rugby union, lots of fans talk about too much TMO, too much, this too much. You know understand why. The penalty at the scrum, you know, could have been a penalty either way, but they chose one team and not the other team. So we've got all that going on and that tradition. Rugby's got to break that down and it's got to be much more responsive. I think in a rugby context, I think New Zealand gets that right. But they're in a big global market and you've got to shift the Northern Hemisphere and that isn't easy, you know, in terms of thinking and I think we've seen some really positive steps in Super Rugby this year. Super Rugby Pacific is a much better I don't like using the word product, but it's a much better view, wasn't it than it was, than it has been.
Speaker 1:Simple tweaks, you, you know, shot clocks and kicking, kicking um times and scrum setting and just just getting the tmo out of it a bit perhaps not enough, but a bit more and making it a fan. You've got to respond to the fan. I can't. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in forums with new zealand rugby when I was with rugby and when I was with new zealand rugby too, so I'm guilty of it as anyone else and talking about how we're going to engage the fan over the 20 years. And Sky's sitting there and we're all sitting there and, to be honest, we've done sweet FA. You know to actually do that in a meaningful way that actually changed or moved the dial and this year's been a pretty positive step. But I think you've got to be a lot more nimble in rugby and I think we're too staid and we're not moving with the times.
Speaker 2:Just out of interest, when you're talking about the two, do you see any coaching differences, Because you've already seen a lot of coaches come through rugby like the very best, and likewise with league. Is there any differences in the way the two sports are coached from the coaches that you've noticed?
Speaker 1:yeah, look, you're gonna be a bit careful, but I think there's quite a lot of big. I think there's more big personalities in rugby league, if that makes sense. I think that rugby league is still quite directive. Yeah, less player led, although the you know, coaches would probably deny that. But my observation is it's having seen it went back when we were the Canes you know that's how long, that's 15, 16 years ago the leadership group had quite a bit to do with building the culture and building the way you wanted to play the game. I haven't seen that as much in rugby league.
Speaker 2:Yeah but it seems to work right, or is it slowly changing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's slowly changing, but it seems to work right. Or is it slowly changing? Yeah, I think it's slowly changing and I think that's because I think I used the example earlier around Michael Maguire and personnel change. We've got a wonderful captain with the Kiwis now, james Fisher-Harris, who's also captain of the Warriors, and he has led a dramatic change in the culture in the Kiwis in two years.
Speaker 2:Is that right? One person can have that much sway on a whole organisation.
Speaker 1:With the support of other people. You can't do it on your own. But if you haven't got the captain and the leader of your team on side, well, you're not going to get it, you know. Again, don't want to be critical of anyone who's gone before us, but I don't know that we've always had that and I'm sure you have a wonderful example of a leader like that Richie McCaw, right, but we haven't always had that in the All Blacks historically either. That's right. I believe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fascinating. I think it's cool that a sport so close in actual game is actually, you know, traditionally quite different in a lot of areas. It's fascinating that there's a difference there.
Speaker 1:Well, you think of it actually, when I just said before about rugby being this big traditional beast and rugby league being nimble. Well, when you come to coaching it almost flips. So rugby union has gone a lot further in the development of leadership, use of sports site, all of that sort of stuff. And the people that have been around the All Blacks have made a big. Kerry Evans and Gilbert Anoka have made massive shifts, and Gilbert Anoka's been pinched by State of Origin now, I see. So you know they must have done some good with the All Blacks and also by England Cricket. Did I read that the other day? So look, that's a rugby union thing. That hasn't happened so much in rugby league in my experience. It's much more coach driven. So it's almost like we've got one big old beast in rugby union, one quite nimble um adapt game, but then when you get to coaches you flip it around interesting fascinating.
Speaker 2:In fact, that's only my opinion. I love it. I love it. Well, greg, it's getting to that time. Hey we're we're coming up to bloody enjoyed this chat. This is the last question that we we ask on the show, and it's this what's one thing that you believe in that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with around culture?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's a difficult one, but I think I think, if I look at it and I walk into it's back to that question you had about how you can feel the culture. So how many teams go through a setup phase at the start of the season? And, including business teams, they're doing strategic planning and they said, right, we'd better sort out some values. And they and they, they do these, the value.
Speaker 1:They have a conversation, that sometimes quite good conversation, and then you get the words on the wall respect, selflessness, all this stuff, honesty, integrity, whatever they come up with and then things go a little bit awry and you don't win a couple of games or the business is under pressure, and you walk in there and you say, well, those words don't mean anything. So in my view and many people would disagree with us, chuck that, that out, chuck it out, chuck those words on the wall out. Worry about the people, get to know your people and get to understand what behaviors in your culture sort of like values, but in behavior, how am I going to behave to you? What's my behavior to you? What will I expect back? And that's more fundamental than a few words on the wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's more fundamental than a few words on the wall. Yeah, oh, I think, greg, you're actually doing a whole industry out of a profession there when you're the team builders that put those up. I've sat through a fair few of them where there's the big A2 sheet of paper glue tacked up on the wall and you just sit there and you can almost preempt all the words that are going to come out and be written on that wall.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go, there you go, and that's the point, isn't it? So you put all your little sticky notes up on the wall and every year it pretty much looks the same, it does, it does.
Speaker 2:And, to be honest, for the life of me I don't know where that sheet ever disappears to, but it gets taken off and probably thrown straight in the changing shed. And does it mean anything?
Speaker 2:There's no heart to it, Greg Peters what an absolute pleasure to have you on the coaching culture podcast. I'd just like to take a minute now just to sign off my three takeaways that I got from you from this conversation. Number one the USP, your unique selling point. I loved it because you know it's not often that we actually sit down and go what is uniquely our selling point? And I love the way you've doubled down on it, you leant into it and you harnessed its power and I just think that's a cool concept for us all to do about whatever team or business or office space we're in is to work. What is us uniquely us and what is our selling point? Loved it.
Speaker 2:Number two I loved it when you talked about the phases of coaches circling the wagons, getting insular, having a siege mentality, that everything is an attack. I think it's a really important point to be aware of yourself, to reflect on this and, over time, try break it down and break down your own barriers, because if you're constantly thinking everything's in attack, you're going to miss some absolute gold which is coming in the other way. Number three people, people, people, Hitagana, hitagana, hitagana. What a statement. When you truly put the statement at the forefront of all your decisions, amazing things happen and I actually loved it that it's such a key driver for you as the head the upper echelon of New Zealand Rugby Union, formerly SANSA, that that is your mission statement People, people, people. I think it's a great flow down to everyone that works with that organization. Greg, thanks for joining me on the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Absolutely a pleasure, matt. I really enjoyed every minute of it, so thank you for having me. I hope it means minute of it, so thank you for having me. I hope it means something to some people who listen.