Stu Woodhouse: Leading a school rugby program and an International side

What does it take for a national team with little budget and less infrastructure to climb from 71st to 40th in the world? We sit down with Stu Woodhouse to unpack a decade leading the Philippines—where family, identity, and bravery weren’t slogans but the spine of performance. This is a story of players scattered across the globe, many who never felt “Filipino enough,” finding home in a jersey and purpose in each other. It began with connection before correction: rookies and veterans sharing hard family stories, naming values like puso, and turning history into daily habits. Lapu Lapu moved from mascot to mentor. Jerseys carried tribal markings. Match awards recognized resilience over highlights. Pride wasn’t manufactured; it was remembered.

Tactics followed people. Instead of copying tier-one blueprints, Stu and his leadership group built a simple, direct model that embraced contact, field position, and clarity under pressure. They trained for heat with dawn sessions and pre-camp saunas, planned for chaos when buses didn’t show or storms hit, and leaned on small lineouts and trick plays when cohesion lagged. The common room became a classroom: phones away, guitars out, playbooks on the table, leaders leading while the staff facilitated. When the environment hums, the coach can step back. That’s not luck—it’s architecture.

We also widen the lens: how resource-scarce programs teach gratitude and focus, why leadership groups need real teeth, and how culture becomes a measurable edge when it shapes decisions, language, and effort. From community visits and house-building to anthem tears and packed open trainings, performance for family became the most reliable motivator in the room.

If you care about turning values into victory, designing game models that fit your people, and building leadership that sustains itself, this conversation will sharpen your craft and your compass. Subscribe, share with a coach who needs a fresh lens, and leave a review telling us the one value your team plays for.

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Transcript

Defining Culture Beyond Words

SPEAKER_01 1:06

The resilience and the bravery of the Filipinos, that was the strength of ours. There was just bravery everywhere. And you're seeing things from boys, unbelievable things, well beyond their ability. That's why we're ranked 42 or 41 or 40 in the world with very little budget now. It wasn't letting themselves down, it was letting the nation down. It was letting their families down. They would uh performance for families. It wasn't about selfless, it wasn't about themselves. I'm really a director of coaching because I think it's really important that I coach the coaches and it's easy just to filter down from the coaches. When you've got everything right, when you're actually left sitting in a banana lounge because everything's just humming, because they're doing it all themselves. I think the ice in the cake of success is culture and getting that right.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Stu Woodhouse, and he has been the head coach of the Philippine national team for 10 years. The volcanoes, as they are known, created in 2006 and got their first world ranking in 2012, which was 71st in the world. In 2024, at the back end of Stu's campaign, they got their highest ranking of 40th in the world. Before this, Stu was a first grade coach in Australia, Eastwood and West Harbor, and by day he is director of coaching at the prestigious Rugby School of Kings in Sydney. Stu Woodhouse, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Thanks, Ben. Mate, love your podcast. Addicted to it. Well as well. So you are very popular out there, mate. And I think it's um refreshing in terms of um this podcast. You know, great guests and that that real you know, the real I think the ice on the cake of success is culture and getting that right. So I'm you know I'm learning every time I listen to a podcast. I've written copious amounts of notes from each of your guests and just love their stories. It's been brilliant, mate.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Right on, mate. Well, I'll give you I'll give you the little brown envelope of cash uh for that little plug. Uh thanks, mate. Well, I'll get I guess we get started with the question that we ask is how do you define culture?

From Australia To The Philippines

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Look, like probably many of your guests have said, it's you know, to to me, I I I've known it as you know, shared goals, shared values and behaviors and agreed behaviours, and um and that's developed in a an environment, um, a team environment. But I think over the years I've I've extended that in terms of um it's the environment you walk in and you can you can see it, you can uh hear it, um, you witness things around it. So um they're they're key now when I walk into other police places and um other teams and and and witness it and I can see and um their environment and give feedback to the coaches afterwards what I witness. So I think yeah, it's the environment you create, right? And whether it's um the coaching environment, how the coaches behave, how the players interact. Um, but that's yeah, that's my take on culture. Um and and on that, I I I an example there. I a few years ago, I I went over to London Irish in there last year, and um through Nick Phipps organized with Les Kiss for me to come in and do a bit of PD. And and I just wrote him an email, I spent a day there with them and and and just loved the experience because every player came and said hello, or players come and said hello. I you you could see collaboration, you could see even um a guy picking up water bottles to say hello, it was just this amazing um environment I witnessed for the day, um, where you you were sort of dragged in and felt welcome. And I wrote him an email and uh he shot back literally minutes later, go, mate, that's brilliant. And he shared that email to the boys on the bus, what I wrote about what I witnessed there, and and I said that that that is strength of your team. Now through the season, they went through a real trough rough patch of some losses, and it's you know, that's when you have those six nation games on, but they stormed home with six, I think, six straight wins and and either made the semis or just how they or made the semis. It didn't surprise me because the strength was in the culture, and I think that's you know, if you get your culture right there, the results will look after itself. Um that's always my view on it.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah, mate, I I agree with you. I think there's a couple of cool things you mentioned there. Like I love that concept that you said it's something you create, uh, you're the creator, and I love that analogy around the culture is you're kind of like an experiment, right? You're almost that mad scientist sort of playing around with the formulas and creating a frantic Frankenstein, and it can go either way for good or bad. Um, but I also enjoyed how that you said that you extended over time, like you had sort of a way of doing things, and then as time went on, you extended your culture and expanded it. And I think that's an important concept, right? Like it's not a fixed this is where you do it, it's an evolving organism, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, it is, and and every every um every group's gonna be different, right? So it's it's understanding it and what works best in that environment and how you create that environment to improve that what they have. Um, you know, I said we're gonna speak about the Philippines, but obviously in Australian culture, it's a lot of it's organic because it's what they've grown up, the kids how you play in the backyard together, and that's organic, the culture and the values are similar. But um, you know, in the in the Philippines experience, you know, had to really find your identity and build your culture and and find and and um really refine that. But um, yeah, so I think uh look, if you walked walk walked on the training at King's, you'd you'd see our culture, it's quite easy. And the school, you'd see the culture. Um, you know, it's you can see it, you can feel it. Um, you'll witness it just the way people um talk to each other and they collaborate and the way they the effort they put in.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Well, mate, I guess that's the well that leads us nicely to the Philippine experience because you talk about every group is different. And I don't know if you could get a more different group from Australia to the Philippines in terms of everything about not just the game, but the culture. And just to to start off, you're not got any ancestry to Philippines, correct?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

No, no, no, what Anglo, unfortunately. So you're gonna love the country, yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, so you're going in super cold, not with no background, no nothing. Run us through how how that's made that experience of going to a national team and and diving into the culture. What did what did you find and and what were some of the big parts of that culture and that environment?

Family, Puso, And Work Ethic

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah, look, I think um through through one of my fellow coaches, he asked me to come and assist in the first year in 2013, completely unknown what what I was going to experience, no idea. You know, never never holidayed the Philippines, didn't know anything about the culture. So um the first thing when I arrived was just uh the welcoming, the family atmosphere. And and that's the thing, if you understand, over the years you um you learn more of this, but they're very much their biggest their biggest values in house is is family, right? Um now that people say oh it's everywhere, but no, they are. If you've ever seen a fellow Filipinos in in the in Sydney or or New Zealand, they're generally a family having lunch together, it'd be a group of 20, 30 of them. They can find each other in in venues and groups. Um so family was very much so you I was welcomed in, right? So um there was also, from their point of view, being obviously, you know, relatively high-level coach, they wanted the players wanted the expertise, right? So they had a thirst to be better. Umso, which means heart, they're they're brave people, they're also resilient people, but they have a thirst for getting better. So um they wanted you to be there to give them feedback. They wanted you to be honest with them, they wanted you to make them better. So um they had a real drive to be better people. Um, and that's something that was always evident. Um, very similar to that Japanese Japanese culture. With any through, you know, training sessions would be done in 30-degree heat, mornings and nights. You couldn't get the boys off the field, you know, they just wanted to do the extras, they wanted to do more. Um, and that's just in their culture. They're um they're very much uh subsistence, you know, living, and so they'd work hard day, day, day by day, and they never take things for granted, you know, things aren't um gifted to them, so they have a real work ethic like nothing else. Yeah, and that and that was why I kept doing the 10 years, you know, just the love I got, as well as all the cultural things you get on the way with the um with people, but it the fact that these boys wanted to work hard and get better is what what what kept it kept me coming back.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Is that something which is quite consistent with a lot of the well like you're you're dealing with a team which is at the start 71st in the world and they're uh sixth tier in the Asian rugby championship, so they're right down the bottom. Um and is it just that they're sponges because they don't have the resource or the any sort of expertise, you're just on your own? Is that kind of why there's that hunger, that puso to just get?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, I think it's what they're it's bred into them. Like again, to give you a sort of dynamic what these boys are. So many of our boys were from Filipino heritage playing overseas. Um, and if you understand the story of those boys, a lot of their mums, dads left for better life overseas. Yes. Um, it was working in hotels where there was um some some of the boys had mums who have met met men and they had so they lived overseas and lived um sort of lives of the communities they were in over there. Then we've got a we had a group of local players that yes, definitely um living in the day-to-day environment of the Philippines, and then we had a couple of expacts boys who uh you know left home to work in the environment there. So majority of the boys were all heritage players. Um but one of the things that um always talk about is they they the boys overseas didn't know much about the history of the Philippines. I don't know, they were they immersed themselves in, you know, they wanted a better life, their parents wanted a better life, so they they immersed the country they were in, they immersed in that that those culture, that culture and those values. But back at home, we'd I'll bring them back in, and then it was just finding identity for them because yes, they had all the traits of the Filipinos, um, but they lacked what their identity was and who they were. Um, you know, and what we're used to, which I what I found is it was it was um always heard the same sort of things. Um when they'd get and talk to each other. Um and again I can talk about this later, but it was vulnerability stuff we'd talk about, but to share their stories. A lot of the boys felt um when they're overseas, they weren't whether white enough or whatever country they're in, but when they were back at home, they weren't fellow enough because so when we brought them into our environment, uh they connected quickly, whether they were rookies, whether they were experienced players, whether they're um players playing in Asia or in Japan. Um they had shared experiences due to the fact of of their identity, lacking some sort of identity. And in this rugby environment, we could drag them in together. And so we built on that, you know. So um yeah, it's really unique, it's hard to explain. Like I suppose is what it's very similar. The perception, the perception is everyone's playing in the from the Philippines. No, there is a small amount of players that from the Philippines, and they do have a local comp. The comp is expanding, and that's over time it'll hopefully get bigger, and they you can draw more players from locally. But majority of the players are playing overseas. They've left home and they're playing overseas, and they're left home because their mothers and dads are looking for for a life um outside of there to bring money back to the family as well, back home. So um that's why if you ever a lot of countries you go to Singapore, you go to Hong Kong, there's a line for Filipino workers, right? Because they they go everywhere to work, you know, the jobs that people don't want to do, you know. It's maids, it's it's planners, it's hotel cleaners, it's everything. So um, so it's really unique, mate. And and anytime, very similar to Fijians, when we travel, and I remember playing, we played a test match in 2014 in Sri Lanka in Colombo. Uh amazing. 10, 30,000, 10,000, 30,000 people, huge crowd. Anyway, we won it and won it on the bell. Well, after the bell, you know, um, and there was probably about a thousand Filipinos. And I said, Boys, whose family's up here? They're not our family. They just come to watch their the workers, you know. And so they the how home always drags them, man. They're very proud of their their heritage, right? So um, and as you know, but Fijiune boys are very similar to the Fijian families. They'll come out of woodwork and they'll find each other, and um, and that's how the the rugby's really s um existed is word of mouth, how we find players and things like that. But I can talk a bit of that later. But um, it's amazing how we found players and find players and what we set up to make that happen. So hopefully I answered the question. Sorry, mate.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

It's uh no mate. Well, you said a couple of things there, which I've uh interested to dive into a little bit. Like I understand that that kind of uh dynamic where the the generational players are not wherever they're living, they're not they're they're Filipino descent, but they haven't lived in Philippines, so they don't have that innate connection to the place through an upbringing there. How do you like you see you talked about making that team the shared experience? So they come back, and the team's almost like the middle ground, isn't it? Where here we can get that connection for you because we've got the those that are deeply inrooted and grown up, yeah, those that are coming back, and all different variations that what do you do in that nest to really bring that out?

Building Identity Through Vulnerability

Turning History Into Daily Habits

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, great question. So again, my not arrogance, but my my first two years, I coached them how I'd coach an Aussie boys, you know. I'd just content in, do this, do that, and I never really dived into understanding who they were. And and yes, we had great success. So we're the fourth. We played Japan in 2013-14. We had Japan in it, and our Asian Five Nations would be a six-week campaign. We had Japan, we had Korea, we had um Hong Kong, and we had uh Sri Lanka's one year, and we had UAE another year. And we were the fourth, we kept we'd our aim was always to beat either Korea, uh sorry, um UAE or Sri Lanka to retain in that division, and we did that successfully, but I was never happy with the performance, it was just up and down, it was wasn't consistent. Um and I realized I'm stuffing this up, it's not the boys. So I blame, you know, not like I gotta stop blaming the boys and they're and I realized that that we had to develop we had connection, but their strength was their connection. We had to develop an identity or what it was. And I know um Eddie talks about with Japan. We so one of the things was um not only we had to come up with a game model, um, look, they're brave, Filipinos are brave, so physicality was a big thing, you know. So we played direct and we played, you know, scrum scrum long, we kicked to corners, we had good backs, but our strength was um the resilience and the bravery of the Filipinos, they loved contact, they were fearless. So, and we found other nations you know, in the subcontinent weren't that. So we knew that was a strength of ours. So we played a really direct game to really, really bully teams. And that but before we did that, we had to actually get identity right. So um, yes, we come up with looking at our values and and and group and greed behaviors. So that's when that pusso, that um family and and resilience and and work ethic, those values. And I thought, oh, how do you do family? How do you do pusso? But family was making sure we had time for connection. So vulnerability exercises, let's hear stories from the rookies coming in. There was it, there wasn't a hierarchy. Yes, there was leaders and and and you know, unit leaders, but I love the fact that everyone was on a level. A new guy would come in, he was treated quickly, brought in the group, um, never um he never felt intimidated, he never had to sat in the back, he was always pushed the front. He was so the boys are really keen. So we do a vulnerability exercise, and the boys would get up there and talk about their stories. And and it came down and um Justin Covney was a player, but also a trained lawyer. And he would talk about asked, great. I said, just JC, I just need you, mate. Vulnerability, uh, we want to get in deep with the share, these experiences these boys come, the rookies, because I'm pretty confident it's the same stories that everyone's sitting around. And I said to you in previous, we had Chris Hickey, I brought Chris Hickey in as help me coaching, but I was a second set of eyes just to look over the program. And it's one of the things he sort of got really good around the game model for for helping me. Um and these boys would talk about how their parents left home and and lived tough lives overseas. And um, and the boys are talking about how they, you know, didn't feel connected to where they're living, they'd come home, and then but you'd be sitting there in tears listening to these stories, incredible tears, and everyone would be in tears, and you know, coaches would be in tears, but it was also a strength. So although they had connections, it bonded the group stronger because they had such shared experience, the same stories would be told each year, each year. I mean, yes, there'd be a bit of humor at the back end, we'd ask questions about things we don't know about you, and I can't tell those things on on online, but that yeah, but it was just brilliant to hear the stories of the sacrifices mums and dads made to give them a better life, the kids a better life somewhere else. And it's and it's a shame because but from that we realize okay, well, what they don't have is they don't have knowledge of the Philippines, and there's so much, and more I dug deep and spoke to um uh the general manager, Jake Letz, who was an ex-player, um, realized it was and we had Lapulapu as a as a mascot. And Lapu Lapu, you know, understanding uh Lapu Lapu was a chief warrior, a Filipino chief warrior, and he lived the Spanish had had rule of the Philippines for 300 years, 333 years, and it was a tough life for the Filipinos. But Lapulapu had victories against the Spanish. Um, you know, he killed one of their major uh captains, and but a very high uh strong warrior and revered. But again, we had Lapulapu as as a mascot, but they actually didn't know the history of Lapu Lapu. So we dug deep in that and we looked at all their heroes. Um, I said to you before, before we started, I had an assistant coach who was a um uh front rower, but he came as assistant forwards coach. You know, his grandfather's revered in the Philippines because he was part of the Philippine resistance in the Second World War. And his job was an assassin. He'd go in and and you know, and you know, create mayhem. And so we had all these these great stories that um these boys didn't know about. And so we would share these experiences and that brought back to that resilience part and that that that push so far. So we we then and we looked at um they have tribal tattoos as well. So and we looked at that and then we started going, well, how do we make how do we see this every day? So we had tribal tattoos, the tattoos put on our playing jerseys and our training kit. Um, you know, we'd have men of the match would be based around the values of a, you know, of those, of those values, right? Not about the best player in the match, that you know, those brave, resilient players on the field, you know, who's just fearless. And that's so we instigated all these these things around our identity. Um, we changed language, you know, I'd deliver them in English in terms of the playbooks, and then you know, we immerse the um the playbooks in language, you know. So we get yes, the boys learn the the national anthem, but we just we started behaving what the local, you know, um you know, legends would be like so um and it really I I learned so much from that because I think um I learned more about myself that you've got to really delve deep into the history of clubs and and your organization and find out what works. And that to me, I then we just got consistency of performance. Um you look you didn't have to tell these boys to train hard. Um, but it gave you because they would work hard online. There was just bravery everywhere, and it and you're seeing things from boys that you you never unbelievable things, well beyond well beyond their their ability, but bravery, you know, putting your body on the line. And um, so that's why we're ranked 42 or 41 or 40 in the world with very little budget, mate, with very little. They are just resilient people. Don't complain about the resource we have. They don't complain. It's a pleasure. It was absolute pleasure to kosher every day. I loved every minute. That's and I would love to see money invested from uh from world rugby into Asian rugby. A lot of money invested because there is they just need of resource and facilities. I we gave them anything, we bring things over, but we we we pinch and get things in there, but but really they need support, you know, and and COVID's hit them hard, and they lost a lot of sponsorship and then they're gradually building. But um, yeah, just wonderful people. So I I encourage people to get there and actually understand a bit about the Philippines.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

No, I love it, and I I love this this vulnerability story piece because and and particularly to unite a group together over shared set of things, and I think it's important because I hear this a lot, like almost the phrase, you're a plastic whatever. You're a plastic Filipino, because you're you're Filipino, but you're not really, because you haven't lived here. But what you're highlighting is when you actually hear their side or you know, and the other the whole team hears that, it actually connects the group a bit quicker, isn't it? Because it highlights a different perspective of the same thing. Like, yes, I didn't write right grow up here, but my parents had to slog it out over there. Just and then you you f you feel it, you hear the backstory, you hear that that behind the scenes of one of your teammates, and then you go, actually, that's bloody awesome. And then all of a sudden, you're you're a group rather than not doing that sort of stuff and having those little sentiment differences like, oh, he didn't grow up here, he doesn't know, he doesn't know who we are, all that stuff. Yeah, it does the opposite, doesn't it? And so too does what you're talking about, the history. The history is for educating everybody, not just those that aren't there, and including coaching staff. And definitely, and when you do it together as a collective, you learn at the same pace, you understand it, and those that know a little bit more can chip in, and it just becomes again the shared experience which grows a group, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

It does, and it's a reference point to get back to all the time, right? And and when you when you when you display those behaviours, it's it's that's an example of it, right? So um, yeah, and look, part of that vulnerability I would do stuff as well. I'd get up and talk, you know, and um I know for the rookies before they come in, like I'm very much, you know, connection before correction. Um, so I'd send out for the rookies that come in and haven't met me other online. Um I'd send a bit about me and what my my you know, what I love to do and you know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and then then you get up there and speak. And then so yeah, I I just thought I got in a real sweet spot. We're with coaching staff, we've got a real sweet spot of connecting the group, and and that's the strength of the strength of that. And I know from that I took that back and I take that back to Kings, I take that, I took it back to teams now is um really understanding that you've got to work on your identity before anything else and your and your values, right? So um that's it's almost like um you know, we we we have content planning for training, but it's a separate, it's a separate training session that you've got to put time into.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

I love it, mate. That connection before correction, that's a great statement. How much do you get how much have you found uh when you just talked about that, what you're good at, what you're not good at? Like a lot of coaches would struggle with they're not good at bit publicly to say to the team, I'm not good at this aspect of whatever. And that's that vulnerability piece again, isn't it? That just opens you up, brings it, makes you more real and human. What sort of stuff do you do you talk about as a coach about, particularly on the what you're not good at side, because that's something some would struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, I think for me, um I'm a generalist coach, so it's I've just the way I've learned, like I've I've man-managed people, I've I don't have expertise, and they I'm not scared, and I know it's I think it's Spithy talks about it. I'm not scared bringing better people in who are better than me on on areas um because I don't have an ego and up front. I I what I love, I'm a teacher, I'm a I'm a P teacher, I'm a teacher. I love to make people, you know, better or reach where they want to get to. So I would be open and going, well, look, if I don't have the answer, I'm gonna find out for you. So my strengths are really understanding, you know, the culture pit, the identity, building that. Um, yeah, look, I've you know, I'm gonna say I'm journalist, I know a lot about everything, but it's a bit like I'm never I'm not great at anything, you know. So, and that's my own fault. That's probably been a you know something I should have knuckled down and done more of. Um, although I played half back, but you know, I I had more time with forwards and understanding their role than what the backs did. And I dictated if the ball went out wide, if the winger stuffed up, he wasn't getting the ball in the next time because it wasn't, we were just playing nine-man rugby, right? But I would talk more about, yeah, what I do know and and and say I've I've you know, I've got, you know, sometimes I can get stroppy when I'm but it's never personal, or sometimes I can be direct with my communication because you're the value. But that's why my thing I spoke to the boys is getting their values and their behaviors, what they what what their behaviors they was a guideline and I all ideas kept them. If they veered outside those guidelines, I'd rip into them. You know, inside that they they come up with the what they expect from each other and the effort and all that sort of stuff. Um, if they worked on that, I didn't need really to speak other than just you know guide coaches and and and give feedback on what I'm saying and maybe little technical things, but if they stepped outside that the group, you know, you you bring them back in. And it was not look, you know, I I think, yes, when I first started coaching, I only coached how I learned, which was very authoritarian in my the generation I started, and all my coach authoritarian. I was a captain through my life a lot of times. I never liked authoritarian coach because I actually thought I knew more than coach. That was just a little bit arrogance for me as a young guy, but but as I went, I did, you know, obviously teaching, and then I did a a master's in sports coaching. I I realized that it's collaborative, right? So I really, you know, I know some of the questions you asked about what do you know people would disagree with you. I'm actually less at the back end of the week, I'm less coaching, leaders of coaching. So I've set up leadership groups. So all of that work in that conversation is a lot of my work. I do a lot of that effort. But where I'm poor, yeah, where I'm not poor, but more about yeah, just the technical side, I think. I I bring people in to do that and I let people know, like this is what I'm good at, um, this is what I can give you feedback on. Um, yeah. So that's there, I think that's what and I'm still yeah, every year I have a PD to do learn scrums. How hard is it? Just push, push harder.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I mean, that's that's the generalist attitude of scrums, isn't it? Push harder.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

But I would love to know more because it's such an art, right? And should I should know more, but yeah, anyway, so that's yeah.

Game Model: Direct, Brave, Simple

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Well, if you've been around front rollers at a high level, they they can sit around having coffee talking about the technicalities of scrum all day. And if you're not that way inclined, you what you it'll be another foreign language to you. But I think it's an important point you say, mate, around that the generalist coach. And I love the open and honesty that you you speak to this because you do know enough largely as a coach. There's sometimes this sort of expectation that you've got to know everything, and it never ends. Like there's always a different way of doing a technique or something like that. But at some point you've got to say to yourself, I know enough here. Now, the best aspect for me to do is actually learn how to deliver it better, to connect with people, to actually motivate them to do this better. And that's the real art of coaching, is sort of when you realize that moment in yourself where you go away from the X's and O's and go into the sort of L's and C's, the leadership and culture aspect. Because once you know enough, mate, yeah, then it becomes like like the motivational piece. And if you nail that, you you're away, eh?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah, and that's and that's where I've got you the last sort of you know five, six years or ten years now, I realize it is, it's all those areas, right? And I've I've working on getting better at that, and that's you know, hence why I said I loved your podcast, because it's that's they're the things I find you bring success to teams, you know, and where and I can add I can add real value with that. Um and I and I and that's where I think for me, I I I feel comfortable around that space and and understand people, right? So um, yeah, yeah, I think um I've just noticed in my learn, my journey, the more I've worked on that, I've found myself consistent, my teams are consistently successful, or we're getting to the point where we want to get it in. And I think that's because of that, you know, taking the time to build identity culture, um, leadership groups, um, you know, what has our team identity, what are, you know, so those things. And then, you know, you just put the layers of technical and tactical over it on top of that. And that's where some people can, uh your assistants can help.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

It does seem to be the reoccurring film. The more experienced coaches get, the more they realise this is the this is the bigger rock of coaching. Anyone, anything.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Well, it's interesting, mate. I I remember reading an article. Um they did a survey through they looked at all like man, man, you when they're at the best, you know, Real Madrid, Barcelona, and they thought, well, what are the what brings success in your team? What is it you're doing that and and a lot of it it came back to relationships. Um and and they said, Well, why then do coaches spend 90% of the week on content of skills and drills when what actually brings is the identity, the relationships, uh living to the value. And it was an interesting point, right? So that's I heard that and um and read that and going and all and so 90% of of the members said what brought them success, why they'll successful is the the environment and understanding identity and understanding you know the connections in that piece, even from a professional sport like soccer, which sometimes it looks very individual, but it was interesting. So yeah, and that when I heard that you know probably five, six years ago, I yeah, that reinf reinforced to me that yeah, so I I I purpose, and that's a big challenge at Kings in a school environment, adding though, how do you bring that cultural bit or identity bit into your training week? Because it's really important to bring success. So, you know, yes, in a school or a training, you're so club footy two Tuesday, Thursday night, got so much detail to get through, get ready for sad day. When do you bring in that the which is another important thing, which is which is, you know, building your your you know, your your values and your you know identity and and and evaluating that each week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, well, it's interesting you you just brought in the school aspect of that because similar to those sort of um, you know, I w I'll use this phrase, the plastic Filipinos that don't aren't don't feel connected, and they've got all they come back in probably with a bit of reservation, trepidation around, oh geez, do I fit in here, all that kind of thing. But when you talk about a school, when you've got six, seven hundred rugby players, each rugby player is coming into their teams and environments with that same sort of thing, like some sort of backstory where they're not quite sure. And the moment you can cut through that and make them feel connected to the team, then they feel like they're part of it and they go above and beyond in trying to nail the stuff, the content you're actually talking, because they feel connected, you know, bonded with the group. And so that's the art for a coach, is knowing that everyone's got a backstory. How do you sort of quieten the noise that's going through the head so they can just nail with a enjoy and excitement the stuff that you're actually teaching, which is the rugby stuff?

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Yeah, well, look, what I do is work more with our yeah, I have relationships with all the boys, and you know, but it's intermittent. It's hard. How do you look after 600 boys? But it's really important I have understand, uh, speak to my coaching staff about, and that's I've got as you would know, you I've got 70, 70 coaches, 75 coaches. I've got to deliver my expectations of how we develop those connections. So I give them time. You need to put that in. You need to make that priority for this week. Give them time. I don't need to see you kicking a ball around the beginning of training, work on those, on those vulnerability, learn a little bit more about get a boy out in front. You know, in the bigger, wider groups, you can you can have you can have discussions, sit down and speak to, you know, the 13-year-olds later on and how their behavior's going and what's their identity, and you know, like I want Eastwood talks about, you know, what do people want to see? And that's so we're building the culture, that part. And but I think, yeah, really working with the coaches. That's why, yes, I'm a director of rugby, but I'm really a director of coaching because I think it's really important that I coach the coaches and it's easy just to filter down from the coaches. And um, and again, we've just got a really, really good, happy place. Um, it's not always about you know wins and losses, because I don't think that's really important at a young age. Yes, for as you would know, our ones and twos, which are performance teams, but I think the younger age is just trying to develop, and you're trying to make them the complete player when they're well not the complete player, a really good player when they leave your program. So I think really instilling um those values and developing your identity and understanding what's expected as a rugby player. Look, the King's School is really good on developing understanding the values, like uh getting boys to understand that it's it's it's drummed into them, drummed in them, they live by it. All we do is refine those and based around rugby. But we do take great pride in trying to be you know the leaders of the a leading sport of of those values and how and probably the biggest compliment I think we we got now. Bob Dwyer said, I know a kingsman when he comes out of the school, just the way they they can listen, they can articulate, they they've got a great work ethic. So you you know, you can tell a Kings guy, and and and we always get feedback. I know you know we're probably your boys are probably the same, but we get feedback from coaches about the Kings boys in rep teams. They say, Oh my god, your boys are so so in tune about what their role is, they ask questions, they they've got a great work ethic, but that's that's all filtered down from our coaching staff. Um and it's and then obviously we have probably similar to you guys, you've got your older boys working working with teams, you know. On game day, the first and seconds boys will be with the teams and identifying this is how we behave, this is what we expect. So it's just um immersing boys in um in behaviors all the time, of what our breed behaviors, yeah.

Leadership Groups And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Mate, I think that's important. Uh like what the phrase you just said there, what someone looks like when they leave your program. And and I think that's great because it's it makes you as a coach, you shift the way you're thinking more long term, aren't you? When you're when your goals is what people will look like once they leave. So they're not just a piece of meat doing a job for you now, they're actually a part of this bigger legacy piece, which is for you in the school setting, is you want the the students coming out of the school to be upstanding members of the community. And so all of a sudden your rugby shifts to a values-based things, which it is in rugby, and you're actually coaching values rather than the X's and O's of the game, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Correct, correct. Yeah, and look, X and O's, and we just do fundamentals. It's it's really basic stuff. So that's I think um, yes, I've written a curriculum for the school, and they have, but we've got stages one, two, three, but we've actually got a stage four is once they leave. So boys encourage back to come, but also we want the boys to have a love of rugby, whether they play league, whether they play, but we want them to love rugby, and hopefully some of those boys will be a coach, might be a manager, might be a parent helping out the local club. Um, that's what we want, and that's the um, you know, that's how we measure our success on that is the the involvement of the boys still and the love of the game. Look, I never had problems having coaches. I've got an over oversupply of you know, ex-old boys coming back in, and that tells me our program is flourishing when you you've got to turn boys away from helping you out, you know, so they love the experience.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

And how do you get that balance in a place like the the Philippines, mate, where rugby isn't widely known, where you've actually got to put some serious thought into actually teaching the game. So teaching that X's and O's, but how do you manage that balance between what we're talking about here is the importance of culture in a place where rugby is not inherent?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, look, from a tra from the boys coming in, there is a vast range of abilities. You've got boys playing professional rugby, um, you know, probably playing Japan or playing French, France or UK. Then you've got boys playing community rugby. So you've got that aspect of it where you've got to find a middle ground and find what works. So that's when we spoke about how we the game model we we work that out, dealing with with this probably their skill set. We also know we've got to try to grow the game. The local game, the local game it's basketball's the number one sport. You would beautiful country, but they're not tall people, but they love their basketball. So but they're very good basketballers, very good basketballers. They love basketball, um, they love a bit of soccer. So rugby is still still growing. Um, we do have small pockets and it's getting better, and it's um they're athletic, so you know, give them a game a touch, it's it's it's fast, you know. So over years that'll eventually get into contact, you know. So um there's a lot more, you know, now there's touch tournaments over there, OzTag tournaments, which you know, expats have brought over. So a lot of our boys are getting into that. So they're getting more skilled. On top of that, you've got to grow the game. Um look, what we've always done is we've we've always made it a priority, whether a five-week campaign or a normal test match campaign would be 10 weeks into two test matches, you know, seven or eight days, so it'll be 18 days. Regardless of how busy our schedule those 10 days, we make sure we're doing something. Whether we're going to orphanages and and and playing touch footy with the kids, and um uh whether we're going to town and we and look to Filipinas, I love selfie, so they love love. So nationally we are known, but not big. They just see us as celebrities, they see boys as celebrities, sort of in a way, not not massive, but so um the boys will be very open, you know, with photos. Um, we'll do obviously we'll have commitments in terms of um, you know, launches of certain clothing. I think our boys will go and the boys who are there living there full-time will get on talk shows and and they're very big on their talk shows. And um, so the boys will be involved in a lot of things and they're promoting always promoting the games. So the boys are far, it's difficult, but the boys are left locally, they're always promoting the games. Um look, Filipinos love winners. So anytime you see you're your fourth ranked nation team, they they love it, right? So um they get behind you in a way, right? So um it's yeah, it's an incredible experience. So obviously we've got sponsors there, um, and we'll do, you know, whether it's in the gym and things like that, we'll do things. So um it is growing the game. Um, you know, time is difficult because we don't have, you know, again, the boys from overseas are only really in for 18 days. Yeah. Um, but when we are there, we're working. Oh, we've done things like we've gone in, and again, part of that was a bit for the boys to understand. We we built terraces. I so they had um projects going where um families built their own house, uh, two-story terrace houses. You built your own. So your families are building literally their own house next to each other. Um, you don't work on anyone's house. But we came in and gave them a hand in our in during our campaigns to build houses. So one, yes, our one it was to to help the community, but also to for our boys who, again, who have gone overseas and yeah, they've they've still got privileged lives to see a little bit about how and be proud of the resilience and what they're doing, and and and boys love it. So some of those experiences are talked about more so than than games, you know, it's just what they give back and what they got back from the locals helping them out, and they just felt part of a family. So, you know, boys would see running water would be bits coming out of out of a pump, and our boys would take off a sock and put a sock over because they couldn't handle seeing the local kids drinking, you know, unfiltered water like that. So it was just it was experiences like that that um really galvanized the group and the appreciative, um, appreciative from their parents' side what the sacrifice they made, but also um they got plenty out of it knowing that um this means a lot to people. Um and and again, it just meant a continued success. So um it's it's just it is truly amazing experience, mate. I I it's it's you know, you see it from a different land. You I said originally I turned up an Aussie guy, Aussie coach, give me the team, I'll coach him. And then falling in love with the place, realizing there's so man so many lays to these boys that make them who they are because of the resilience and and the and the and the history there.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

So didn't um Stu, did you see this kind of happen when you created these sort of opportunities for players to connect with the local communities? And did you feel they had a bit of they developed the pride and like oh that 100% and and did that flow through? Because this is where a lot of people that some people listening would go, but where does it relate to actually performance? But do you think that pride in the team actually equated to when they got on the training field, they're actually more invested, did it better? Is that what you saw? Did you see that definitely that link?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Definitely, and that's what we and we and you could just see it and yes, every national armed people cry. But it was just the intense build-up to things. It was it was it wasn't letting themselves down, it was letting the nation down, it was letting their families down. So I mean, we would have days where we'd open training sessions and families would come on all day and watch your train. So they just yeah, they would win, they would performance for families. It wasn't about it was selfless, it wasn't about themselves, right? I said these boys go back and play at other leagues somewhere else and win loss, but they took pride in their performance because they knew what it meant, what it meant for their mother um or their dads back you know where they were. Um, it meant it meant for the local people, meant for the rugby community. They needed this and also needed knowing that success would bring potentially more people into the game, right? So there was so much riding on our success, right? And and and and through that, I you know, I was through the golden period. I I come, and it wasn't me who started this, it was um Jared Hodges won. Um Expo was another coach, and they they initially got this up. Matt Cullen was a general manager, he's an Aussie expat. They got it all started, and I just was in the golden period where we just added on, and and we we had success. So um, but again, it works with their their their bravery and their resilience, um, all this.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, I love it, man. I love how at the very start of this conversation you talked about the environment you create, and I love it how you're actually creating that national pride. Um and that does equate to performance and performance for family. Like that's the that's the underlying driver. And the a lot of things you've talked about here, like the using the history, using the lapu lapu, that history to connect players and changing the language, all this stuff is creating this national pride in a national team, which is not just for show and a feel-good factor, even though it is that, it's actually a performance driver, too, isn't it? That's the bit which uh it yeah, I'm it's hard to solve on it.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yeah, it's exactly right. And I and I, you know, obviously we've seen, you know, uh you know, Fijian teams, the sevens teams, you know, we had overseas coaches and they really immersed themselves in the Fijian culture and really working hard on the on their identity and their and that brought those performances gold medals, right? So um, and that's my advice. So I know you know we spoke advice to any person taking an international team, you know, you can't look it through the lens of what you've just coached. You've actually got to your first priority has to be get to know the country you're in, understand the way they tick, understand, understand what their history is and and you know, understand um, you know, their their families and how they operate together. And and then you can build that, you know, then you can look at their assess their their skills when you see it, and okay, well then you've got to mould it all together. Um you know, definitely look the Philippines has many challenges. It's I'm I'm saying it's rosy, but look, I had, you know, being an Australian there, working there, you you know, you want everything done now. And then and in the Philippines, it's not always done like that. So traveling through Asia and working through Asia, you've got to be, I also do I develop my own resilience and calmness because you you can't even you can't even plan for the unexpected because it does happen, whether it's a typhoon kidding you right then or it's a it's um you know, one time basically we're getting test match ready and we had a lightning storm that hit the goalposts where we're training, and you know, how do you plan that in? How do you plan you know a bus not turning up because someone's falling asleep at the bus shelter, a bus depot? And but that's where I got a where it's where I was smart enough to realize that I brought in uh Grant Rice, who's an an ex GM or CO of Aussie guy, but played rugby league, a good level rugby league, just a doer, brought him in because he could work. He knew what my standards were and and what my expectation was, but he also knew how the locals operate. So he was the C he was the middleman of just getting things done and looking after me and not getting me frustrated where I can just concentrate on looking after the team and the coaches and the players, and he would look after all the logistics as well as the GM, Jake Let's at that side, but Jake the GM was generally you know the bigger picture stuff. You know, Ricey was always doing the day-to-day stuff, getting the getting the pads out or getting, you know, getting where's the washing from yesterday done? Where is that? Yeah, so things just happen differently. That's that's what I loved about the place because it was different, right? Whereas um, and that's for any coach, you need to take that in and understand coaching those tier one, like they say the lower tier is that that things are just done differently to what a high performance team, but you can still create a high performance environment just within the parameters you're working in.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Um, but I I think um, Stu, you've got a really awesome mindset. Like, like it initially you came in and you knew yourself, you knew your strengths and weaknesses, and you're open enough to say, here they all are, but it's also awesome to hear that you're actually open enough to grow yourself. Like, here's here's what I didn't do, right? Here's where I'm growing, here's the people I need around me to actually make me better, and this experience is making me better. Which if you have a coach with that sort of mindset, man, it's gotta feed on to players, right? Especially at a national level of a tier six Asian uh team. Now, well, one thing I've got for you because I'm really intrigued about like what's your model based off? Because when you go into a team like the Philippines, like not a strong side, and you can look at all sorts of models, and how do you pick like for example, you wouldn't pick the all blacks and say we need to be doing what they're doing, because it just doesn't equate, does it? There's a lot, it's a lot it's a lot of coaching as coaches out there see what the all blacks are doing or England are doing or South Africa are doing, but it's not the same context. You just said at the start, every team's different. So to cut and paste or try to put cut and paste, and most coaches, it's tough to paste well, you you you miss the heart of your team and what you need, right? And you're else you're sometimes you're doing things for you know, not the best interests of you, but for someone else. What how did you do it? How did you find yourselves in there?

Growing Rugby And Giving Back

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Yeah, I I said earlier, there was there was naivety to me in the last couple of years, you know, cut and paste it, whereas I was I was had enough awareness to realise things aren't working or things aren't getting to where they need to get. And so part of that was actually then developing a leadership group and having a collaborative effort to come up with the plans, what works best for us, what do you guys want to do? What do you think is our strength? And a lot of these guys have been playing, before I got there, were playing test matches. So they knew actually what their strengths were. Yep. They knew what they liked. So we developed a game model from that that leadership group, you know. So a lot of these conversations were had, you know, these are these are the Facebook days, was wasn't necessarily about Zoom days, because Zoom came later and the, you know, in the COVID days, this was all on Messenger and setting up, you know, WhatsApp sort of group chats and just developing and then you know, relinquishing a bit of you know, a bit of power and saying, oh boys, what do we need to come up with? Yeah, look, uh, because you had a variance in Rugby IQ, you just had to make sure. Um, so if there's things that I think we should have been doing, I'd imposed myself. And they were okay with that. And I spoke to them about that because that's that's more so they probably didn't have um, you know, the probably the learnings from that. And that's part of why they wanted me there. They wanted to know more, how can we get better and how can we make this situation better that we've we've got. So um, but they were good at they were smart enough to identify their strength and their weaknesses as a group, and then we developed the game models about that, you know. Um, a lot of those boys, they said they grew up in Australia and New Zealand, so and and and Great Britain, and so they could kick a ball, they could pass a ball, you know. Yes, there's variance in their skills, and um, but they were smart enough to understand um they were smart enough to not make the game too hard. So um so we really had a simple model, mate. It wasn't wasn't um you know, the ball in play probably in that level, you know, who you're playing against is a lot of drop ball. So the ball in play isn't isn't as great as probably high level, you know, tier one team. So um, but that's why we had to play probably more direct game and carry more and and use power. And then you know, we had great set of backs, but but again, we but it was all you know, we we found the line out wasn't great all the time because it just you just hadn't cohesion together. You weren't together regularly. So we had to come up with smaller line outs, trick plays, things like that. Um yeah, so I think it was a collaborate, and that's again why I brought people in. Um, you know, I you know, Greg Mum, I brought you know Chris Hickey in, um, you know, and then even in the nine eins, when I, you know, your boys that you've got coaching, I brought Campizimafu in to help out with them because I used to look after the nine eins as well, not just the opens, because I wanted to make sure I had a pathway and new players coming in. Um, because we didn't have necessarily again to get selected was really word of mouth. People put CVs in, you'd look at the any footage. Um, so I looked at the nine. And so I just I just brought people in to just clean up and tidy up those little areas. And again, also, mate, I think the mistake I made is I try to do too much at the beginning. Like I tried to cover so many areas and realize, especially in those 10-day training camps, where I got better was, and they were talking about the macro, the micro, the the micro was was just maybe sure. I got those 10 days down pat of recovery, of commitments to media, um training. Also, we had boys coming in from different time zones, right? And heat zones. So I had to have I had to have heat. Like I had the boys in saunas and bars in England because it was you know five degrees and about to jump into 35 degrees plus 90% humidity. You know, you had so you had to have heat strategies in before they come in because it my first two years, you had boys just passing out in the first two days from the heat because it's and they just couldn't climatise to it. So um I got really good on getting that really effective 10 days of training enough to hit the ground running when test matches and we were firing, you know, and as well as you're sticking out all the cultural stuff and all the vulnerability. It was it was non-stop. Um, but you know, we we had um you know, the boys come up with we had it basically our camp was at a lovely hacienda. It was sort of like two levels, the boys are sleeping upstairs, downstairs would be um your your your TV room or your meeting room, and normally I'd have a meeting room well away from your team room because it can you can get lazy and fall asleep, but we're working again, but we had no phones policy, the boys kept no phones. It was never a problem. Every night you'd have you'd have a guitar down there, you'd have check uh chess down there, you'd have playbooks, I had all the who were playing around the around the wall, we had photos of the when they're celebrating success of their past victories. You had the whole place of nurse. It would be heaving every night. You'd have to tell the boys to go to bed because my room would be off there, boys go to bed. Like it's we're up training at 6 a.m. because you're trying to escape the heat, and you train six to eight and then train at five to eight, uh five to seven at night. Boys, go to bed. Like because they just loved. Um, and they would sit there and all and they'd have their little micro meetings, and that's how they develop their game plan and their game model. So I just, I just I love by the end of it, I just facilitated. And you and you know, mate, when you've got everything right, when you're actually lit sitting in a banana lounge because everything's just humming, because they're doing it all themselves, you know you're doing well. And that's so it was a really good example to myself going, yeah, you do all that groundwork and then you're just facilitating. And that leadership, again, I've probably gone off track a little bit, but just it's all those little things creates an environment where you're essentially just taking a back seat because they've got everything going, they're humming, they know what the expectation of each other, they know their game model, they've developed it, they have input in it. It's just you know, there's there's mistakes, mate. That's and we train, like I seen Eddie do it. We we train with buckets of soapy balls because mate, the humidity is like you can be playing a match in bright sunshine in Sri Lanka and then be torrential rain, like a monsoon with 100 mils in one hour.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

So you've got to Yeah, and that's the context, isn't it? Like understanding what you've got and your environment and your team specifically.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah, so we all Southeast Asia is humid, mate. So, but then we'd play up in Korea in these Asian and it's five degrees. We played Japan in 2013. We left, funny. So we left Japan, and this is 2008. He was coaching and Scotty Wiseman was assistant coach. We played him uh at Fukaroka at level five stadium. I mean, they pumped us, but um 121 mil, wasn't it? It was cool runnings. We literally got the tracksuits made. They've never had a tracksuit made because why do you need a tracksuit? And you could actually hold up to light and see through the light. We get off the boat at off the plane at Fukuroka, it's five degrees with a windshield of minus five, and we played like that. So at half time, the halftime chat wasn't about the boys what they've got to work on. I was actually just getting warmed. It was five now because I'm freezing. But but again, like you we just had extremes and you had to work with that, and you know, as we get on, went on, I was a bit more prepared and love it.

Lessons For Tier One Programs

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yeah, I I think it's a cool statement. Not to don't don't come in and your learnings around not coming in and just changing everything. It's much like you jump on the bench press, you don't just load it up with more than you can do. It's always that a little bit at a time, incremental gains around the the bits you can handle. And I think that's quite a good analogy. Because if you do try to lift 150 kilos, you're gonna there's gonna be repercussions elsewhere. Even if you do manage to do it, you're gonna be so sore you're not gonna be able to do the back exercise, which is next, which is the next other bit. And rugby's not just the one aspect, it's such a big scoping thing, especially the national team where you're actually representing a whole lot other than just the game. It's important. But one thing I did think, Stu, which is an important little side just to reflect on, is that leadership group you talked about, because it's the way it's a lot of people talk about these leadership groups, but you mentioned it's your feedback group. It's a sounding board, and it's what's it's your feedback for what's working on the ground. And I I I I like a reference, some of the Japanese companies I've been involved with on the factory floor, they give a lot of free license to anyone on that factory floor that sees something can be done better. They have to speak up. There's boards put out where you go right up, this needs a change. And as a manager, you wouldn't see all those little nuances. But when you go back to your leadership and you make everyone a leader, you can actually you can actually get some amazing little shifts at a time, which ultimately end in big ones. And you talked about relinquishing a bit of power, uh, and potentially I think you have to concede at times if needed. And then acknowledgement, it's a collaboration, and that's the way this generation is, which is different from the previous one, where it was a lot more dictatorships in theory and authoritarian. These days, coaching is not that, it's a collaboration, and if you don't shift in that regard, there's a chance that the culture will never shift.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Um, now, Stu, have you taken anything back? Like what any big rocks that you've taken that you would take from the Philippine in culture back to sort of tier one countries, that you go, this is something that they do so well here from uh a really young rugby country that they do well, which we could learn from from tier one countries.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Look, I can only talk from my experience, it's tier you know, tier three, I think, we're classes, or you said tier six, but it's it's understanding yeah, your identity. I think I think sometimes you're potentially those tier ones, you you you've you've got you're in a high performance, it's things are lavish. I think what you notice here is um there's a real resilience understanding that nothing is taken for granted because of what they get, you know, everything they get is is is um received well, it's respected, and and whether it was, you know, what people saw generally is that when we're playing test matches, we're in yes, we're in nice accommodation for the test match week because we the the host nation is part of the requirement of Asian revenue, but they don't see the 10 days what you're sort of dusty grounds, you know, trying to find hit shields that enough for the team, you know, trying to find someone who's washing the washing the um you know the bibs and the bottle water bottles washed out, you know. So that's something, and I know they do it well. I do know the all blacks do that well. They're appreciative and they make sure everyone in a team environment are welcomed and and and received and and respected. So I think again, don't lose sight of that because those tiers down there have minimal resources, they they they can run an organization on a sniff and all the rag and and get really good outcomes and to keep growing the game and and actually getting results, you know. Um, you know, we we can never measure ourselves. Um, you know, Philippine reality is we got as far as we could get. We won the division, div div one. We played in the Asian Five Nations, kept our position there, and then it broke up going, it was too expensive for us. You know, it was five weeks of campaign. It's our boys are taking time off work, they've got to pay their own fare to get in. They get looked after once in, but they've got to pay their own fare to play. Well, then they broke it down to sort of an eight-week camp, eight, eighteen-day campaign with two tests or two, three test matches with 10-day leading. Um, again, they had to fly their own way in, but those 10 days, they're just, you know, you're working with bare minimum, you know, in terms of you're you're making the most out of people working really hard. So I think you don't lose sight of the luxury, uh, uh how you're well looked after, but also um, you know, I tell you, Marcus Smith is uh is a Filipino boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Or maybe if you try to rec recruit him back.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Well, I tell you a little story, I'll go back to it because he does give back to the game, he comes and visits. So I was looking after the nine eens and we were playing career in a test match the next day. And I just little boy turned up with his dad, little fella, fifteen, sixteen year olds, old boy, you know, Filipino boy. We're doing some exits. And Dad said, Do you need him? We just do you need extra body somewhere? Yeah, yeah, perfect. Yeah, we I need a back three. And then yeah, what is he playing? He plays 10, but he can play fullback, shoved him in there. So we're just doing a typical you know two-phase exit, you know, off the side piece, hit up, you know, short man line, hit up and kick, kick down. And we've got an organized kick chase line. Score. I went, Oh my god, what was this? What was that? Okay, go again, did it again. Boop, went through our line, scored. I just said, I looked at the general manager, Jake was up in the said, How old does he have to be to play tomorrow? So he's got to be 17. And I just from that I saw this kid and going, This kid, and you know, I've seen a lot of good kids back at home. This kid was special. And then, yeah, three years later I'm watching he's selected as an 18-year-old. I'm text Jake Lex, did you just see who made England squad? Marcus, all those years. And Charlie Lawrence was another boy who's just playing for Japan. He's another boy that I coached for two years. Um, another exceptional guy. But yeah, so I think um I'm getting back a bit of a segue, but um, a lot of those boys still give back to the game and still have a love for the game. So we get a lot of messages um when we play, those guys will send messages in and wishing our boys all the luck and stuff like that. So and I know Marcus came down with his brother's brother last year and you know gave some time to the Filipino, so try and grow the game. Um, and we've set up hubs as well, so overseas, what um yeah. So basically, if you're those top top tier nations, um, yeah, just not lose sight of where they're at. I think that's really what I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

I'd say the um the joy is never lost. In fact, it's magnified in places where you're playing for the sheer love of the game, isn't it? That's a real good point. Yeah, yeah. Now it's got to that time, Stu. Well, it's it's time to wrap up. You've sort of loosely lightly touched on the last question, but I'd I'd love you to dive a little bit deeper to finish us off. Is what's one belief you hold about culture that you reckon your peers would disagree with?

The Case For Culture Before X’s And O’s

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

I wouldn't say all disagree, but what I see a lot of, um, whether it's a kid's campaign into a tournament, whether it's a club, um, they'll get straight in the X and O's and not develop the culture. I think that's your foundation. You've got to set that up and then it's expectation of your staff of your coach as well, because I see really poor coaching by they're not holding themselves to the same standards they expect from the boys. So I think um really taking the time, whether it's a campaign and a three-day tournament, whether it's a season, spend, get quickly onto the developing your your your values, your identity and your culture and what you expect from each other. So you've got alignment and then you'll feed off that, and then you can get in. Because that means every training session, you've always got a reference point to go back to. Where are we happy with that? Did we live up to the standards that we expect from each other? Where we where do we need to tidy up? Where we so I again I see it, and whether it's just people don't know, but I just they get straight in the X and O's and don't spend any time on that. And they, yeah, they'll have some success, but I see a lot of failure on that. And it's pretty easy to me. And I um and I, you know, I've seen it my own kids where you know you can see um, you know, they might be having a great season under feet and they'll lose the grandfather, but you can just see snippets of of things they haven't addressed from from a values point of view and behavior point of view, because there isn't a standard set and and a and a foundation set, so there isn't an expectation of what you're gonna behave. And I can you can see it, and you're probably the same, mate. You can see you can see it coming, right? And and you can see issues rising because that hasn't been established. So that's probably my thing for that. Um really establishing that before you do anything. And that's what we do at the Kings. We really establish that early in our program of each year and reassess that. Where are we, where do we need to work on, what are we gonna, and when we have camps in April and things like that, we we spend a whole whole day or afternoon of that. We get that down. It's less about unfilled. Um, it's about that. We we embed that, that's what we have. And then when we have July of camps, we're reassessing that. And no different if you've got a team each year, you just reassess what do we need to change, what do we need to fix up product. So, yeah, that's my my view on that. I you know, it's probably shared by others, but it may not be shared, but I think that's where people can improve and you'll find you'll find performances will improve. Um yeah, and I had that discussion, mate, with with Campo, with Campese Mafu when he did him talking about that and really developing connections and identity, and he rang me the next day, goes, mate, unbelievable, unbelievable. I just enjoyed the weekend. Yeah, so love them.

Final Takeaways And Sign Off

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

It does work, it does work, mate. And uh when you can shift your mindset from the excess and o's to the leadership and cultural sides, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's uh it's immeasurable, but it's enormous. Now, Stu, I'd like to just sign off today, mate, with just my three takeaways that I got from this awesome conversation with you. And they are these number one, this statement that every group is different, there's always a context, and the danger when you cut and paste from other teams, you miss what's really special about your group, and you don't double down on that. So taking things from previous groups, regurgitating what you've known before, is never the best practice. And I love the way you talked about finding sort of easy wins with your own uh culture. That's the history, that's vulnerable stories to bring people together under your context and just to acknowledge that every group is different is a massive start for a good coaching practice. Number two is this statement that you talked about is what your environment looks like for someone when they leave your program, the values that you leave with people. And I really loved it because it makes you think longer term as a coach, not just the here and now, not just treating a player as a piece of meat, but knowing the importance of them, that they're part of a legacy. Just a in and that you're growing them as a person, not just as a player. And I think when you take that time as a coach, your coaching will just be better all round. And number three is you talked about leadership groups are important for your feedback loops for you. Like the new age of coaching is not the old age. Leadership groups provide a sounding board, they give you feedback, and if you're prepared to relinquish a bit of the power, if we call it power, and concede when you need it, what you're gonna get is this amazing collaboration effect. You're gonna bring people in, and it's gonna be a combined effort towards the one target. And that is the way society shifted. And if you want to uh a great culture, you need to shift yourself as a coach, and you shift and you'll find the culture shifts. Yeah, Stu Woodhouse, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coach and Culture podcast today. Ben, thank you, mate. Loved it, love every minute of it.