Coaching Culture with Ben Herring

Andre Pretorius: Understand And Assist

• Ben Herring

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A late-night training, a tired team, and a coach who missed the real story—that’s where everything changed. Andre Petorius shares how a single moment of misread effort led him to apologize, “break the chain” of how he was coached, and build a people-first approach anchored in three words: understand and assist.

We dive into a definition you’ll remember long after the episode ends: culture as your team’s immune system. Andre shows how small daily behaviors—inviting young players into extras, how you leave a gym, the way you speak after errors—either strengthen or weaken that system. Coaching in Japan pushed him to listen differently, use humor to open doors, and bring player ideas into the room. The result is a team that speaks up, owns solutions, and learns faster. His mantra “calling up, not out” reframes feedback: praise the precise piece that worked, then fix the next layer. It’s not softer; it’s smarter, and it stops the spiral that turns one mistake into an identity.

You’ll also hear why Andre stopped talking about winning. Not because results don’t matter, but because outcome obsession warps behavior and language. By doubling down on standards, process, and specific improvements, performances stabilize—and unexpected wins emerge: a debut earned, an aerial skill streak, a tighthead’s first linking pass. Andre’s journey from attack coach to defense coach adds another edge; defense teaches how to fight and protect, while attack learns to create and manipulate. Through it all, his faith grounds his identity, letting him lead without fear, serve his players, and keep perspective when the scoreboard doesn’t cooperate.

If you’re a coach, leader, or teammate who wants a practical, human blueprint for culture and performance, this conversation will serve you well. Subscribe, share with a colleague who needs it today, and leave a review with the one idea you’ll apply this week.

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SPEAKER_00:

So I every season I tell the I tell the gents, the Lord has given me two beautiful daughters, but every year I get between 40 and 45 new sons. I kind of knew that good wasn't never gonna be enough. I needed to be brilliant. I got the boys together and I apologized to them and I said, this is this is where I break the chain of of coaching the way I was coached. Culture is your your team's immune system. It protects what's healthy and it rejects what doesn't belong. I wish I could say that I think it was a selfishness thing. Um just wanting to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Um and you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, and I've been loving this style of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Andre Pittori. Andre grew up in Johannesburg, South Africa, and he made a name for himself as a technically astute first 5-8. He played 15 years professionally, including 10 years with the Golden Lions Lions in South Africa, and 31 games for South African Springboks. Friends have said he is one of the most intelligent rugby minds around, and he has coached in South Africa before moving to Japan, where he currently coaches the Hino Red Dolphins. On his Instagram opening tagline, it says, Andre Pitoris, proud husband and dad. Then it says ProCoach, which is the correct order of things in life, I reckon. Andre, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Been an absolute privilege to be on you, and it was so funny. Probably about four minutes ago, you tried to introduce me to this podcast, and it's one that I don't miss one week. So uh big fan, you're doing great work, so it's it's great to be on you.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh well, mate, it's what a pleasure to have to do champions like yourself um on the show. Now, mate, I just to go back to that little tagline, mate. I I actually love that. Proud husband first is the first thing that you say on your on your profile page, mate. Is that a is that a bit of you, your your sort of philosophy on life that the husbandry comes first?

SPEAKER_00:

It's probably not good to admit that my wife wrote that.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I take it back, mate. Say no more. We'll we'll we'll edit this exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Um it definitely is now. Ben it wasn't. Uh I think I was a I was it took me a while to to to get married um and to start a family, which I regret now, knowing what I know now and the the joys that comes with all of that. I would have done that uh probably a bit earlier. But then again, I don't know if I would have had this family, and this is the only one I want. So definitely the order of things in my life, and you know, with my faith being the the foundation of and the shape of things in my life. So that's definitely the the the order that that I prefer it in.

SPEAKER_01:

Did did just out of interest, did did the rugby side sort of were you consumed with a bit of that like early on in your career? Also you make a national team, very good rugby teams. Is is that what took dominance early on in life?

SPEAKER_00:

I wish I could say that. I think it was a selfishness, Ben. Um just wanting to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Um and you know, when you when you step into this this side of life, you've you've got to put that serving hat on. You've you've got to put yourself second most of the time, if not all the time. And I I just I wasn't there. And I cringe sometimes when I think about um the relationships I was in and and even the coaching back then. That you know it's it was selfish, it was it was so meaningless in in in certain aspects. Uh if you have to compare it to what I'm experiencing now as a as a husband and a dad.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's powerful, mate. You had to put your serving hat on when you became a coach and evolved as a coach. Yeah. Man, and and and you've that has evolved for you? That's become a way bigger part of the way you operate now, both in on and off the field. It has.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's it's a lot more intentional now. Uh, I'm a lot more sensitive to it now. And you know, obviously it came from from mistakes you make in that uh, especially the initial part of coaching, as I don't know if all players experience this, but I experienced it like it it felt like I had to prove myself the whole time. Coming from a playing from a uh at a certain level, it felt like you had to prove yourself as a coach now because you played at a certain level, and I found myself trying to show those players what I know more than I was trying to connect to them and building relationships, and what they did is it just caused disconnection, and it you know, relationships and connection something that came really naturally to me as a player. So as a coach, that was always there, but that feeling that you're trying to just prove yourself the whole time, you start making terrible mistakes because you're just focusing on yourself. And you know, I remember it was the in the first two years that I coached, I had this idea I need I needed to show the players how much I know. Then then they'll they'll buy in and and it was one evening late that the university's boys were having an absolute nightmare on the field, mistakes everywhere. And reacting in the only way I knew how, because that's the way I was coached, you know, it was okay, boys, this is you know, that's enough of that. Let's let's get some form of drill going here as a punishment. And my my assistant coach, Daniel Bester, usually backed me up on things and he said nothing. And we did that, and we finished the training, and I sent them home. And as we walk into the cars, Daniel asked me, Can I, can I chat to you? I said, This is serious. He says, Well, I just want you to understand that these boys they write exams at nine o'clock in the morning and then they write at five o'clock in the afternoon. So some of them study right through the night, they sleep for about right through the night, write the exam at nine o'clock, sleep for about two hours, study, and then five o'clock one one more test, and then they come to training. So by the time they come to training, they've got nothing left. Absolutely nothing in the exam times. Ben, as he was talking, it felt like I wish the world would just suck me in. I've I was I felt so ashamed and embarrassed of how, you know, these boys that I actually love so much. And I I failed, I failed at showing empathy, and I fell failed at realizing, you know, where this is coming from. And that's that's where my coaching philosophy of understand and assist was born. And that's something that's that's an anchor point. That's something that I will never, never move away from again.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, mate. That is that's quite a deep story, isn't it? To get to get you how early in your coaching career was this?

SPEAKER_00:

That was in the the that was in the first year it it happened, but I I I hadn't fixed it. So there were there were those incidents. And then in the second year, that's when I you know Daniel spoke to me, and uh the next day I got the boys together and I said, you know, I apologized to them and I said, this is this is where I break the chain of of coaching the way I was coached. And I apologized to them and I said, I promise you, and I promise myself that's that's one thing that that won't happen again. And like I said, that's where the the understand and assist coaching philosophy for me came from.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, mate. Like I reckon that's a real like that's a real great phrase to break the chain of the way I was coached. Because I would say nearly all coaches, your reference point is the way you were coached. So to to have an example that shock you, and then consciously try break that, how did it go, mate? Did it was it an easy process?

SPEAKER_00:

It was it was the the problem was that a week, two weeks before that, so I've made this decision, transitioned, and it actually made training easier and better for me because I wasn't policing the whole time, I wasn't trying to control everything, I wasn't I was getting players to be more involved, and this process was going well. And then two weeks before that, there was a player that was constantly late, his performance started dipping, and he you know, he's kind of niggly the whole time. He he's not training, and then he's training, and then he's late. And obviously, now it's before this whole epiphany and changing and transitioning into so I treated those also with some discipline stuff for the team and late, etc. etc. And then after this, I found out that he had some personal issues, and he had to go and he was they lost their car, and he had to walk in the mornings to go and uh get the food for his family, drop it off at the house, and then go to the university and come to training. But I never took the time to find out why this was happening. So after this, that came out, and I go, I went, Well, you know, that's that's the reason Understand and assist was born, exactly for that.

SPEAKER_01:

Because everyone has a backstory, right? How do you yeah?

SPEAKER_00:

I think that's where being a dad now and being a husband, you you just you see the players in a different light. You see them as someone with a backstory, someone who's who's got who's got real issues off the field. And when things start going south now, it's uh it's not you know what are you doing, it's what's what are you going through. Because something's off. You don't become a bad player in 24 hours or 12 hours or whatever the case may be. Something's up. And if it's not up, then we go into that, you know, mindset, skill set, structure, and we look at where the breakdown is and and we um we try and fix it from there. But first it's a it's a personal personal check-in and to see what he's going through.

SPEAKER_01:

How do you do it, mate? How do you how do you get that understanding and check-ins with with your players?

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's not from day one. So you need to be really intentional with the connection that you that you make with with the players, with your one-on-ones. If your one-on-ones are always just rugby, it's always just gonna be rugby. And the day you ask him a personal question, he's gonna go, You're you're a therapist, or you know, why are you asking this? But if you're connecting with him, you you make time for him, when you have one-on-ones, you start the one-on-ones off with, you know, how's how's your dad doing? I know he was he was away for a while, or whatever the case may be, because you know what's going on in their lives. When you get to that question, then it's the wall's broken down and they open up and they talk to you. And they know also that just it stays with you. I never have one-on-ones with players, with other coaches. It was always just me. And from then on in, the information that I that I could get from players, which helped them in the long run, because I I then knew what to allocate or what the reasons were for their underperforming or being late, or you know, and then a forward coach would come to me and he'd say, Well, this player was X, Y, and Z. And then if I could disclose, I would. If I couldn't, I'd say, you know, just take it easy, we're working on it, and we'll we'll take it from there.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't it funny, mate? Like, it's something so like what you're doing is it it's providing that context, right? And that leads to providing the understanding of why things are happening.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right. And they they even though they, you know, they they some they don't want to talk about it, but they actually do want to talk about it because they want you to know why they're not performing. They're embarrassed to say that their catch and pass has gone down, their tackle completion has gone down. They're embarrassed, but they're it's human for what they're going through. Something's got to give somewhere. So it's either gonna be your academics or it's gonna be your tackling, or somewhere it's gonna show. And when they can actually talk to you, it's a big relief that they can say, and not, and I made them understand that it's not an excuse. I'm not gonna make excuses for you. This is not an excuse. This is something we need to, we found it, now we need to fix it together.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that, mate. It's not an excuse, and and I like that you referenced that because you're not excusing like the thing, you're just shifting the wording. So instead of saying, What are you doing? you're saying, what are you gonna do now? With that little bit of understanding. And it just exactly it's not taking like it's not hiding away or or putting that under the carpet, is it? It's it's putting it all out in the open and saying, right, this has happened. How can you X, Y, and Z to make it better next time or not let your performance slip because of these things that are happening, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And I think some players, well, a lot of players actually, when they do one thing bad, they put that whole umbrella over their game. So and I think for for coaches, a challenge exists there where you, if you can make them understand it's just a part of your game, it's not the whole game. And they walk out of that room just lighting up and thinking, well, if I fix that, the other things are going well. You know, you just showed me my ball carry is good, my ground skills good, um, I'm getting a couple of jackals, but my decision making on my jackals is bad. So let's work on that. And if you're specific with that type of feedback, the boys tend to move away from you know, just beating themselves up the whole time and starting to focus on what they do well and getting specific with the fixus.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh now, mate, this is this is cool. When when one thing goes bad, we don't want the whole umbrella to come up. Yeah. Because that is what happens, it's a chain of events, right? Like if one thing party lies bad, it just goes. Yeah. And and those conversations, that's part of your assisting to help people not let the spiral effect happen to them, which can easily happen if the coach doesn't understand in the first place, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it it happens so quickly. And once they go into that spiral, then then it takes a whole other conversation to convince them uh about their capabilities. And you know, they they're much better than they think, though. And I found that with the Japanese players, it's actually it's it's a lot worse. They are very, very hard on themselves. And when you when you sit down and say, tell me, tell me about your game on the weekend, they'll go to the first three worst things they did in the game. So, well, okay, that's good, but what about A, B, and C that you did right? Did you, oh yeah, and then he drop his head and you can immediately see. So part of the challenge for me with them is to understand that they they're allowed to tell me what they did well. I want them to tell me what they did well. We'll get to the the the work on stuff, but I need you to understand what you did well because once things start going badly, you can go back there and you can realize you're not a bad player, you're just battling through something at the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Pushing through. Yeah. Mate, I love it. Oh yeah, mate, it's it's awesome. Man, what are you finding? The big like that's a obviously a big difference for the the the Japanese psyche. Yeah, yeah, you're brought up in South Africa. What what are you finding are are some of the big differences between African cultures and and and Japanese cultures?

SPEAKER_00:

Whatever I say goes. There's no speaking up, there's no exchange of ideas. Well, there wasn't. Uh that's that's the that's what I got, you know. And it took me a while to get the boys there. Now that I understand the Japanese language a bit, I would in the past I would have a meeting. And when I have meetings, I'm a very big body language. I I have a look at the body language, is the message hitting? Um, who's not with me, etc., etc. And I would feel something in the meeting that someone's not not agreeing. I don't know if he's not agreeing or he's got a bad idea, but I would never know. And once they walk out, I hear the conversations. Now, in the beginning I couldn't understand the language. Now that I understand a bit more of the language, we'll have a defense chat and say, listen, the nine, I want the nine in the boot, not on the edge. Um and I won't say anything, just no problem. Well, that's the way. And as they walk out, I hear the two nines talking to each other. And now I call them back because I said, What you just said there is what I want you to say in front of the group. And if you don't feel comfortable, wait and talk to me because what you guys just said is a better idea than I had, and we need to implement this. And if it doesn't work, we cut it and you get to something new. But you're walking out with a lot of ideas from these rooms because you're not telling me. And I understand, I'm not trying to change the boys. I think if you're going to try and challenge the culture and get them to speak up and force them and hotcall them every single day, the the uncomfortability is just it's kind of counterproductive into what you what you're trying to achieve. If you make them feel feel comfortable in their culture and you break the walls down one by one, I mean I I rehearse jokes and I wait for opportunities to tell these jokes with some of these voices, is to get that connection. But once I get into the meetings, then those are the guys that talk to me. So it's uh it you need when you yeah, you need to find different ways to like lead, listen, and and connect. Otherwise, you'll you'll be looking at faces that just not, and when they walk out, they walk out with a bad idea and you won't even know it.

SPEAKER_01:

Lead, listen, and connect and rehearsing jokes, Andre, far out. Like, and that sounds a little bit silly, but to anyone that hasn't been in Japan, you actually have to nail it, don't you? Because there's so if you say one word slightly wrong in Japanese, it it's not a joke at all.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's not even just the word, just the intonation. You go up when you you're going down, you're talking about a bridge or chopsticks. You know, it's that's the that's the difference in this language. So yeah, you you feel silly for it, and obviously you don't get it right every time. I've stuffed up numerous jokes that I've rehearsed for weeks, weeks. So the disappointment they don't know about the weeks, but I do.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, mate. I I'll tell you my joke because I did something similar, mate, in Japan. I I had this phrase which is you be wahrashi huber hubarashi desk, with and I would stand up in front of the room and I'd wave my finger when I was saying it, and it means my finger is a super toothbrush. And I would be saying it as if I'm talking about some of the rugby context on the board, and there would just be this murmur of rippling effect of what is he on at like he doesn't realise what he's saying, and the whole room would just sort of break into this like, oh my goodness, that is like, but it just like you said, mate, when you those little bit of humor can just break down barriers, right? And if you're the guy leading it and prepared to do it, it got it's quite powerful, isn't it? If you're setting the benchmark on that side of some things, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

And I mean, we spoke about Yummy Sun, the translator, he's quite open to uh I I try and mix up the meetings quite a bit and not be too long, but also keep it interesting. And our our theme for Toshiba when we played Toshiba in the warm-up a couple weeks ago was chaos. And so we had I chat GPT write up this chaos picture, and when we started the meeting, whatever we switched it around. Yummy was talking first, Japanese, and then I was talking second, but in Afrikaans. And Yummy was talking about him wearing clothes this morning because it's winter, and I was talking about them being uncertain, but I'm all in Afrikaans. And everybody just started, you know, like what is this? And one of the players actually said, This is chaos. This is what chaos looks and feels like. And you know, if you if you've got those types of things going, keeping it interesting, and the boys can buy in, they they they enjoy it. Sometimes they don't want to show they enjoy it too much, but I know, and I know certain guys enjoy it more than the others.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. But and you and you you never know if you're gonna hit everyone, do you? But as long as you're uh a good chunk, slowly you'll they'll explain it to the rest. They'll do that, right? You want that big chunk. I love it, mate. Well, hey, mate, we've we've dived into just chatting away, but I'd like to just flip back and get your definition because we asked this question is mate, how do you like overall, how do you how do you define culture?

SPEAKER_00:

I think the definition worldwide, everybody's got their own way of wording it, but it comes down to the same things. But the way I like to explain it to the players normally is that uh your culture is your your team's immune system, and it I guess it it protects what's healthy and it rejects what doesn't belong. So when you when you've got a healthy culture, you know, in when things go wrong tactically, you can actually you can manage that. When you have setbacks, losses, because the system corrects itself, the culture looks after itself. But when it when you have a wee culture, that's when those little the negativity, the ego, the inconsistencies, that creeps in. And before you know it, your standard goes down, the good habits go away, bad habits creep in, and you know what you tolerate is what you get. And that at the end of the day is is what culture is. I I truly believe it's like an immune system that that you uh you've got to strengthen every single day with the small things that you do. And then for culture, you obviously a lot of coaches say this, but you need a you need a healthy environment. You know, you need clear standards, you need um shared, shared purposes, and and you need competitiveness. You need guys, you need you need the team to be competitive. That's a healthy environment. And then you you you've got leaders that serve and you've got good human beings, but that mix can really put that environment forth to to cultivate and grow a good culture.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, mate. That's that's that's that's probably what the one of the most uh sort of unique definitions and well-articulated definitions of culture I've heard, mate. And we've done a lot of these now. Culture is your team's immune system. What a fantastic analogy! Protects the healthy and rejects the unhealthy. The system corrects itself. What you tolerate is what you get, and you've got to strengthen it every day. Man, that's a really powerful metaphor, mate. Like you can really visualize that, can't you? It's it just it flows beautifully in terms of like yeah, it's a it's a wonderful little um analogy, mate. In fact, it's it's one of the best I've heard.

SPEAKER_00:

You should hear it in Africa.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's the next one, mate. Fire out. Culture is um culture is your team's immune system. And and you sort of know, like, don't you? Like, when you're just comparing that to your general health in life, you know when you have when you're eating rubbish and you're just eating that little bit of chocolate for lunch every day, you just feel that little bit sluggish, and you know, if you keep doing this, at some point your body's just gonna go, right. That's it. Had enough. Take two days in bed and then shift your shift your game up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, true. And yeah, with with culture, I don't think you build it through team meetings and slogans. It's those little things. It's you know, how you leave the gym, all the all the the small things that you that you do when no one's watching, how you treat hotel staff, um are you when there's you've got early entries from the university. I have a look at these things when those boys come in, and I when we do the extras after training, are those boys training on themselves or are we including them? Because if we're not including them, the coaches have done something wrong. We haven't taught them to to include these boys because that's that's the heartbeat. That's that's the that's the importance of of culture, is making sure that those players feel feel included.

SPEAKER_01:

It's a bit it's would you suggest that culture too is almost an experiment of sorts? You're constantly trialing, and like nobody nails at all, right? Like, like what like when you talk about the immune system, everybody has the block of chocolate or the ice cream or the the seven dozen bears on a Saturday night sometimes, like and you realise, and over time you correct and change and experiment with things which make you feel better, and that's the same in like team environments, isn't it? Like you're constantly just keeping your eye out and being aware of the things that make it better and worse.

SPEAKER_00:

That's exactly it. I I agree with you because sometimes the the coaches would get something wrong and the leaders would help you and go, we don't think this is this should be part of this event or or this play or whatever the case may be. And then, you know, that's the block of chocolate. We do a fitness block after uh uh a week off. We don't gradually get in, get a fitness block, and the boys come and they see the schedule and they come out and they say, Do you think this is going to be beneficial? Or but they need to have the voice. You need to set that environment there that they can that they can speak about it. And if you've done it, and then you've got two soft tissue injuries after that, you need to be held accountable. It's like we we can't have this again, and everybody's part of that process, and that's the block of chocolate. That's that's when you go, okay, well, lesson learned. What does the next phase look like uh of similar sorts? You know, is is there another week off? What does the next week look like for us?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, man. Well, I want to talk about lessons learned, mate. Where have you learned your lessons along along life, mate? Like, what's how's your your upbringing sort of shaped you along this stuff? What has there been key moments in your life where you've you've picked up big life lessons which helped you eventually get to this? Because you're very articulate, you're very well spoken, you're very conscious and deliberate around the way you coach. Where's that come from, mate? What's what's shaped you along the way that's helped this process for you?

SPEAKER_00:

I think as a player, I was I was lucky in you know, growing up in South Africa, I had a I had a good upbringing upbringing uh in terms of the schools that I went to, the friends that I had, uh always always been active. But the one thing that was always held against me was the size. So I never got picked for any representative sites. Um I get to the last trials and they go, ooh, number nine, no. And so when I went to university, um I kind of knew that good wasn't never going to be enough. I needed to be brilliant in certain areas to make up for the for the lack of part. And so that just gave me a really deep respect for for hard work and curiosity, looking for knowledge, looking for not looking for for quick fixes, something that's sustainable and that you can keep doing. And I think that made me a big process person. You know, I needed I needed to see the system, I needed to see the process. And once I see that and it's clear, you know, it's it's rockets from there. So the the deep respect for for hard work, discipline, and fight, uh not being shaken by not being selected for certain certain teams, and then just having your bags packed for when that bus stops. And you know, luckily I got an opportunity from from one of those coaches, and that's um the rest is is well, it's not history. I'm still busy with with with this whole experience and journey. Have your bags packed for when that bus stops? Yeah, I don't know. Uh it's probably uh Franz Ludica is saying um Francis got some beautiful sayings that uh that I still remember from the from the Lions.

SPEAKER_01:

How is he, mate? How is he uh influenced on your career and now you're coaching? Because he's uh for those that don't know him, he is a wonderful man and a wonderful coach. He's been in Japan for about 10 years now and got taken a second division team all the way up to winning the top. I think he's one of the best. Around how how's he instilled things in you as a person?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, funny enough, my first year out of school, there I like I said, I didn't play I didn't even play for the university's uh under 21 A's on under 19. I played fourth team for the university. And fourth team? Yeah, because I played fourth team, I could play for my residence. And he was the coach of that residence in 1997, and we won the league with him as the coach uh at that residence. And then a couple of years later, I got an opportunity obviously with the Lions, and he was the coach for the Lions and the Cats, so I got to work with him again. And now in Japan, I've met up with him a couple of times, had some zooms with him, and I think the one thing I take away from France is that quiet perseverance. If I if I think about France, I think about quiet perseverance. He um he made a lot of mistakes when he was at the Lions, which he he would tell you uh like all coaches do, but the way he's just gone about his business and what he's achieved, and if you if you talk to him now, it's so so deliberate and assertive that you you kind of want to spend more time with him to um besides the fact that he's a great human being, it's just there's there's so much knowledge because there was so much trial and error, and I think that's where that's where I am now. Um having coached in in different disciplines, trial and error is a big part uh of my journey. And in the beginning it was tough because if players would come and say, We don't really like that, um, take it really personal. You know, it's like, why? What are you talking about? This is great, and so I've obviously I've grown out of that, and now having the players on your side and getting two Japanese players to come back and give me their idea because I know that's better. Um, I just see how players get more involved in the system when you do that, and it's quite fulfilling, it's it's very rewarding.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't it it's it's a it's a very universal thing for coaches, part of the coaching journey, is that the best coaches in the world are very open about their mistakes, and the the the lesser experienced as a coach you are, you're very defensive about anything that would resembles even the possibility of a mistake, right? Why do you reckon you have that as a young coach? Why why do you reckon there's that defensiveness?

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's definitely an inexperienced thing. And because I wonder if it's not more players that played or players that transition into coaching, if they're not worse with us, because you there's a certain expectation. I've played, um, so I should be able to coach this game. But coaching is it's not just the game, it's not just the X's and O's, you know, and then you think, yeah, well, the players like me, and it's not just that. You know, you you you've you've got a couple of other variables that you need to manage. And then once you it's it's kind of like that Kruger Dunning effect, you know, the more the longer you stay in it, the more you realize how little you know. And then you're trying to put this facade in front, like, you know, I I know, I know. How many coaches do you speak to when you say something that and they go, Oh, yeah, I know, yeah, I know, I know, I know. We d we don't know.

unknown:

We don't.

SPEAKER_00:

I want you to, you know, then back then I wanted you to think I know. And that right from when I leave that conversation, I promise you, I was on the laptop and I'm going to look at this thing that you just taught me, but I didn't want to give it away that I didn't know it because I'm realizing how little I know. And I think maybe that's that could be it. What do you call that? The Kruger Dunning effect. Yeah, the Kruger Dunning effect, where you you start out, you think you're very competent and you think you're very confident, but you're you're actually incompetent. And the longer you go on, the less confidence you you get because you realize how incompetent you are. And then you start working and you start working on your competence, and that brings your confidence back.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, man, that's good. That's what we're talking about. I I did like it how you said, because I haven't heard um a coach say this before is you felt like you had to prove yourself because you played at a high level. I think that's something which is not actually spoken about. The pressures on because often you hear a lot of coaches who aren't professional players sort of comment on oh, professional players get leapfrogged ahead of other coaches working out pathway systems, which is probably very true. But that's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? The pressures that X players have because there's this expectation that they'll be as good as they were as a player.

SPEAKER_00:

And being if I on that, uh if I could if I could do it differently, if I could have a choice between a teaching background and then starting to coach and learn the game, or being or played at a high level and then coach, I take the teaching background and then learn the game any single day. The other the other side of it, uh the playing at a high level and then just makes for better stories with the players. They love it, you know, they want to know what it's like. And um, at the university, I used to take all of my we had a jersey day, and I take all the old jerseys that I got, Dan Carter, Johnny Wilkinson, and those, and the boys got to train in those jerseys. You know, so you got those and they love that. They absolutely love that. But I'll take the teaching background every single day because if you can if you can coach that person before you coach the player, my man, you can get them to do anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, yep. So you get a little bit of kudos as an ex-player, don't you? You get that little head start by the players give you the benefit of the doubt to start with, but then you quickly get exposed unless you're constantly working on the craft of the thing, which you have to catch up pretty quick, right? Because this, like you said, there's so many variables, and just because you've played, you should be able to coach is incorrect. In fact, it's very different, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

Very, very different. And I think if you can give yourself a bit of grace in that first year or two and and just learn the ropes, but learn learn how to to deal with people. The the game you're gonna you you'll pick that up, you've probably you know it already because you've played, but it's it's not about that. If you can, you know, I know a lot a lot of amateur coaches in South Africa that can probably take a URC team to a final because they they just know how to work with people. And if you know how to work with people, there you can get assistant coaches that know the game, um, and you can learn the game yourself. But I think work that that people's people factor um that's immensely important.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you reckon it's something you can really grow and train, that sort of ability to to work with people? Do you reckon it's a skill, or do you reckon it's largely either have that inherent ability or it's a trainable skill just like anything else?

SPEAKER_00:

I think certain characteristic traits make it easier. Uh if you're if you're uh if you're a a person with uh a lot of empathy, it's I think it'll come more naturally to you. But I think you've had a guest on here that's that's shown both sides of the coin, John Mitchell. I played on I played under John in at the Force, at the Lions, and let me tell you technically absolutely brilliant. He'd walk into a meeting on a Monday, and once you walk out of there, you believe that you're gonna beat Western Province by 25 points. And you beat them by 25 points. But the the connection factor, uh person before player, etc. etc., just wasn't there. And now he's just won a World Cup with the ladies, which is testament to how he's grown and how he's changed that. So it's definitely something. He's he's living proof that you can evolve and work on that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, I think he said in the podcast on this show there was actually one of those transformational moments similar to your uh when Daniil you know punched you in the stomach with that that awareness. He had one where he actually had a a physical trauma where he got you know stabbed, uh physically stabbed, and it just highlighted the preciousness of life for him, and it just it just put everything in perspective that he was getting lost in the X's and O's of this game, in the weeds he called it. You know, again lost in these weeds, which didn't mean anything to anybody particularly. But then when he came when he had that little near-death experience, it just he said brought him back to like what's really important about this game, and that's that connection piece, and he's gone on from there to really work on that side, and in the women's game, even more so than the men's game, I reckon. You've got to have that super strong connection piece to to to make that team really hiss and pump.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's kind of uh if you if you wanted to to show that you've developed that he's pretty much done that with the with the World Cup he's just won with with the ladies from England. It's not uh I think coaching coaching women is uh it would be new to a lot of a lot of coaches. And I've listened to Wayne Smith a couple of times, and I love the way that he goes about talking about coaching the ladies. Like you're allowed to cry, but please, just on the side of the field, because when you guys cry, everybody cries. You know, I don't mind it happens emotional. And I just thought that's that's so that's so nice, you know. It's like I understand the emotions are are a bit different to to what I'm used to, and you're allowed to show it, but you're disrupting the training. So if we can just you just move to the side and then we can still continue training, I'd appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01:

Mate, this is coming back to you understanding first. Understand you've got to cry here, and I'm gonna assist you to do it in such a way which is not gonna have a flow down compounding effect on the whole team.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, mate.

SPEAKER_01:

Mate, that's awesome. And what about yourself, mate? You've had a bit of evolution, like you've attacked coach, very attack-minded uh rugby head. You love your attack side. Um, actually, you've you've done some great analysis on on a lot of detail. So you've got that side, you've had your head coaching experience, and now you've completely flipped, you've gone another country to another format of the game, the defense, D coach. So you're you've had a pretty well-rounded sort of experience on the game side of things. Was that, you know, was that a deliberate thing? Was that part of your growth? Is that what you wanted to enjoy, or was that just happenstance and chance?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I think it was deliberate in the sense that I knew I was coming over here to do defense. That so I wasn't uh told I was gonna do backs attack, etc., and then given the defense. So I knew I was gonna coach defense, not attack. And but it wasn't deliberate in the fact to get the advantage that I'm currently receiving from it. What's the advantage, mate? At the you know, as an attack coach, you you learn to create and you learn to manipulate and you you look for for for space, etc. As a head coach, obviously you you learn how to lead, manage, you've got to plan the schedule, etc. etc. Which it's it's an extra on on top of what you need to do. Because when I was head coach, I I was also an attack coach, um, which I preferred. You know, I loved leading, but I also loved getting my hands dirty and you know, working players through certain things, uh, certain problems that they're having on attack. And then when it comes to defense, in short, it learns you how to fight and protect. So it's it's nobody across the line. Um I'm not the typical defense coach shouting, swearing. I'm not, I'm not that guy. Um and at one stage there was something I thought maybe I I need to transition a bit because maybe I'm not getting to the players. And luckily my wife stepped in and said, Well, you know, you're gonna disconnect, probably, you'll probably disconnect even more from the players because that's not gonna be authentic. They'll they'll see right through you. And I'm glad I never I never went that route. Um, but I I I do get worked up sometimes. Uh I do get emotional uh in terms of uh when the boys do well, you see, like Dan Osan, his tackle technique has improved f by 100%. Um he's so confident and he smiles when he when there's a tackle session. You know, those types of things make me make me really enjoy my job and enjoy the defense side of things. But having coached defense now for a while, I know what's difficult for for defense, for defenses. I know where they struggle to get numbers back. I know when you can trap the the two centers on one side and when they when they come back, you can actually look at the blind because they're gonna lose a number. They're waiting for a you know, that type of thing. So I want to I want to put those pictures in front of that defense. If I get a um an opportunity to coach attack again, I want to put those pictures in front of the defense more often because somewhere someone's gonna have a misread, overfold, uh mistake on the catch-up, etc. etc. And it's due to the fact that you're analyzing top teams like Toshiba of two weeks ago, uh, looking at their attack, and you see this is a well-drilled machine. You know, to stop this, we're gonna have to make some plans. But you know you can there's certain things that you can take into your attack.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it, mate. Actually, probably most of all, I love what your wife said. Just stay authentic because there's no right or wrong way to do it, is there? It's just your way. And the worst thing you could do is try coach the way someone else coaches.

SPEAKER_00:

It's Ben, it's it's sometimes difficult because because you're dealing with a lot of different players, some of the foreign players coming from, especially Australia and England, is that's the way they're coached. They're coached by coaches that are very hard, and and and there's nothing wrong with it. I don't I don't judge that. That's everyone at each to his own, you need to get the message across, you need to get the job done. But uh, you know, that's not that's not my way. And some of the the players would kind of hint, you need to be a bit harder. You know, you need to be a bit. And I said, Well, I am, but not in front of you. I close the door and I sit and talk to that player, and I'll start the conversation saying, I'm gonna show you three clips now, and you're gonna be embarrassed. You're gonna be embarrassed about what you're gonna see. And I didn't do it in front of the group purely for this reason. But you've got to promise me we're gonna sit and work out something after this so that we prevent this from happening again. Um so they don't know about that, and that's how I that's how I kind of prefer it. Um I don't I don't believe in calling out, I believe in calling up. Uh that's a JP Nurban saying he's also got a a a culture a culture podcast. Um he's calling it.

SPEAKER_01:

Calling out, not calling out, or calling up.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're calling up, not calling out. Um which in turn I think takes takes a bit of heat off off the players, not not dropping standards, but especially the Japanese boys, they're already so hard on themselves. If if you're gonna you're just gonna put fuel to the fire if you're if you also jump on that wagon.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So the calling out versus uh calling out not out. Can you just run me through that concept and how that that that plays out for you?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think in in a lot of systems, we're very quick to to call out mistakes, um etc. So calling up is two meanings for me. The first one is catching people doing something right instead of you know, it's like that that acknowledgement of, you know, I see you, I see that effort. It might not have worked, but uh, the intention was good, the decision was a bit off, but that that's what we want to see. And then calling someone up means that I'm not gonna be pushing you down with my words in terms of what you've done wrong. I'm gonna be picking you up with the assistance that I'm gonna give you in the way we're gonna fix whatever you've you're you're battling with at the moment.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, mate. So I love that. That that that's two absolute little bits of gold on that, isn't it? Like catching doing calling up is catching someone doing something right, which doesn't always come inherently to coaches and teachers because you sort of a little bit of the the role is to correct mistakes, but the more you can catch someone doing something right, that's some powerful motivation, isn't there? Some psychology in that, and people you know perk up a little bit, like and there's so much right, like we often get caught out every little negative thing, but when you there's so much you can catch out doing right, isn't it? So you use more opportunities to lift someone up, and you're not pushing the second thing you said, it's not pushing people down with your words, you're assisting them rising up. And your words are very powerful, aren't they? Like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm very conscious of that as well. I love that phrasing, man, calling up not out.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, and you know, if you if you look at the Japanese players specifically, we'll do a tackle session and we'll be working on certain chunks of it. And he would get his double foot punch brilliantly, but he would miss the bind. And he'd immediately, and again, body language, I look at facial expressions and he'd he'd be very disappointed, but he's just blasted this bag uh onto the onto the mat and he'd be very disappointed. And I'd said, What? Yeah, but he missed his bind. I said, Yeah, you might have missed your bind, but you've just put your ACL, AC joint right through his his sternum. You know, you've you've that's a great punch. At least the punch was good. And they're slowly starting to see why I do that, because we'll work on the bad stuff. But when you feel something good and you're and you notify and you tell a per a player that he remembers what he did. So to get a good punch, that's what it feels like. That's why I need to have my feet. But if you're gonna just talk about your bind, he remembers that memory is a negative. And they they start enjoying, you know, the the habits work ons now with the tackling is a lot more than they were a year or two ago because they come back and they feel like they're actually achieving something. And that's what that's what I want because the boys work hard. Um, and I get I get emotional sometimes after games because I feel sorry for them. I know how hard they work, and then they don't reward themselves, they get into good positions, they don't make the tackles, and they come off with a 65% tackle completion. You know, I I want to see I want to see them do well.

SPEAKER_01:

Man, I I love where you're going with the emotion. Like there's a lot more emotion on the defense side of the coaching game, isn't it? It's a lot more heart-driven. You'd almost say that the attack side is a lot more head-driven, and you'd almost say that the head coaching side is the whole body just encompassing all of that thing, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's brilliant. I like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you can quote me on that, mate. I just did there we go. I love that, mate. It's mate, it's cool. And how has, mate, this you talked about some of your learnings earlier, but how has this big move for you gone personally? Like just your being, you've gone from I would say sort of Afrikaans upbringing to Japanese living for you and your family is probably right up there with two of the sort of extremists you could get. How's it grown you as a person and a in a and a family man on that's on the off side of the game? And how's that improved you or has it?

SPEAKER_00:

You you probably have to ask my wife if it has improved me. What it has done to me, I mean, at first it was just a rugby opportunity, yeah. And I saw it as a rugby opportunity, and I knew there were some some challenges coming, and it was gonna definitely improve improve my presentation style because I had to simplify my messages. Uh, at times I was overcoaching because in in my language and English, so I knew that challenge was coming, but I think at first it was just a rugby, a rugby decision, and then uh, you know, like a chance to grow and and to come to Japan and and see where you're at coaching-wise. But then it became a lot deeper than that. When you as soon as you step into this country, you see the the humility, um, you see the respect, the discipline, and you start doing a lot of introspection into your own life and go, I can be a lot better. It it made you realize that there's a lot more that you can be uh in terms of uh just just being a good human being. And so I think I think the good Lord and um has has put me uh because this has given me the best example of becoming a better husband, a better dad, um, and inevitably a better coach um when when I am in that environment.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you think your um being a husband and a father particularly does actually make a difference on your coaching?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So I every season I tell the I tell the gents, like the Lord has given me two beautiful daughters, but every year I get between 40 and 45 new sons. And that's that's the way that's the that's really the way I feel about it. And I think sometimes when I'm working with the players, I kind of think how why do I have more patience with them than with my own daughters? So you kind of integrate the two the whole time, but I also think Ben, if you're if you're constantly looking to improve something, if you're constantly looking to be a better dad, a better husband, a better coach, you're sensitive to to opportunities of that cross-pollination and where you can actually use the one to suit the other in that environment.

SPEAKER_01:

Mate, that is absolutely gold because I mate, in this industry of coaching, you often hear the stresses and strains on families and husbands and wives because the nature of the job is something that becomes so insular and you get so absorbed by the coaching in this game that you lose sight of you know sometimes your family life. As it is a sort of a general, not always the case, but it has happened. But what you're talking about there is if you're taking your principles from coaching that you're here to grow great people as your players, and you and you and you're constantly looking for ways to get that better, if you then cross-pollinate that with your parenting, it's you're you're it's the same principles, isn't it? You're trying to grow great children or great people into it's not it's not necessarily just what you're teaching them now, but what they're leaving your environment with at the end of it too, right? And vice versa, if you then put that into the same context and flip it, what you're getting through your parenting with that love and that stuff in behind, that emotional side can easily cross-pollinate back to your coaching too, right? So it's it's very intertwined, like you say, and cross-pollination is a great word, as long as, as you said, you're constantly looking for it.

SPEAKER_00:

If you are constantly looking for it, your your sensitivity picks up to it, and you you'll be doing something at home and you go, Well, I need to I need to put this into my coaching. I think this will this will this will really resonate with X, Y, and Z. This is this is the way to go about that situation. And then the other way around, um, you know, you can't say that you're gonna go understand and assist with your with your players, but when you go come home, you something happens and you're immediately on the on the offensive, and you know, you're not you're not trying to understand why it happened before you actually react.

SPEAKER_01:

Jeez. Where do you get the Andre? Like your articulation of concepts here is is top draw, mate. What's a very intelligent man, of course, but uh has this always been a part of your um your being, being able to articulate words well, um, get ideas like this across? Is it is that a bit of you, or is that something you're sort of grown and built on as you've gone?

SPEAKER_00:

I I don't think it was. I think it was always uh a challenge for me. I sometimes feel bad for the translator uh for Yami-san at at Hino because our forwards coach is a lawyer, so he's and he's an Irish Irishman that that stayed in in Brisbane for 12 years. And he's a lawyer and very well spoken, very articulate, um you know, toastmaster, top drawer, etc. And then you get the Burke from South Africa with an English second language, and uh sometimes when I get it get into that emotional state with the defense and I run out of English, but I can't go africans then. So Yummy's got Yummy's got two extremes that he's got to look after. But I think it's uh it gets easier once you simplify what you want to say and you don't chop and change your principles the whole time. So speaking about this is something that comes a bit more natural now because it's not something I have to think about or make up, or it it's something that's that's part of me at the moment. Uh it's on when I'm coaching, that's that's the way I coach. When I parent, that's the way I parent. When I'm uh with my with my wife, that's the way I am. So I think that could be it's just when you know something, you talk about it a bit easier.

SPEAKER_01:

Huh. Mate, very cool. I love that. And mate, if you mate, if you have to chuck something out as a coach, like if you had to say what makes a good coach, what would it be? If you had to narrow it down to one thing, mate, where you went, this is what makes a good coach, but what would you say to that question?

SPEAKER_00:

I think good coaches, in the past they'd say, listen, you have to treat everybody the same. I think the good coaches don't treat everybody the same. And the only way you can really not treat everybody the same is to know what's going on in their lives. So coaches that treat players differently because they know what's going on in their lives, it's coaches that take the time, make the not take the time, make the time to get to know their players. They care enough to use that when they actually deal with them and deal with setbacks or even wins successes. You know, if they've if they've nailed something, um you know how much it means to certain guys, other guys, it's it's just a a little bump in the road. Another one, you know, it's probably something that he's never done before. Or but you know that because you you know your player. So I think that's that to me makes a good coach. That's a that's a lovely concept, man.

SPEAKER_01:

I like I gotta tell I'm gonna cross-pollinate it back to children. I love those arguments I have with the kids when they like one of them will say, I got four kids, and they say one of them will say, 'Oh, what why does why does my brother get to go to bed later than me? Well, well, it's not fair.' And you go, Oi, do you want me to treat you the same as your brother? And then they think about it for about 10 seconds and then go, well, not no.

SPEAKER_00:

And you go, Well, Oh my word, I'm gonna use that. That's that's going in my book. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But it's it's mate, it's it's you gotta treat people differently. Like treating people the same, like you said, is not understanding the individual, it's it's a mass concept, it's putting everyone to the same box. Um, my one of my um my mother-in-law says that uh my my wife says that that her mum always wanted to treat all the sisters the same, and it was a point of contention for her because she didn't want to be treated the same. I'm gonna give you this amount and this amount and this mount divided by three. What? But I'm bigger and hungrier. That's not fair. That's not fair. Life's not fair sometimes, mate. I I have been writing down notes galore. Um, Andre, I've just been blown away by some of the the way you put this. So, mate, we've got to that time where I'd I'd like to um ask you the question that we ask always at the back end of the show, and it's it's this it's what is there anything that you believe about culture that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_00:

Winning. So obviously winning, and and this is something that I've I'm struggling with to articulate actually. I'm still working on how to put this out there without sounding like winning's not important. But the players know I don't talk about winning. If everybody's held accountable to your standards, if you've if you've done the prep, if you're sticking to your processes, you're fixing specifics, you um you're connecting, you're ensuring that the the there's intentional connection. I believe then the performance will look after itself. And even if you don't win, you still win in certain parts of the game. You've won because you've just had an under 19 guy make made his debut for the senior side. That's a win. You've won because your tight head, excuse me, your tight head prop has just carried the ball, stepped to the outside shoulder, and tilt the pass to the lock who scored. Now you've your that mount that might sound you know quite normal, but your tight head lock has never passed the ball in his life. He doesn't even carry. That's a win. You know, your your fullback at the moment is not catching anything out of the air. He's just gone through a game where he hasn't missed one. That's a win. So there are so many wins, but if you keep talking about winning and you're not focusing on that environment uh and you're not focusing on on your processes, I think that's that's when that's when anxiety and fear starts creeping into the players. And in other words, we have to win this game. Um all of a sudden it becomes a scoreboard game. It doesn't become the next job game, or you know, was we trained this, this is this is the play. Your communication changes, you know, from so we'll s we're gonna on at this scrum, it's gonna pick, ensure that we we secure that ball at the at the at the breakdown, and then we start our knockout attack. Then the it goes from boys, we've got to get the scrum first. We you know, don't collapse. Don't knock the ball on when you pick it up. You know, it's the the language starts become starts to become very negative when it's outcome driven. When it's process driven, and I tried process for a a couple of years, and it's kind of like the off-floating game. You get a lot of coaches that want to play an off-loading game, but the first two goes to ground, they go, Oh, no more off-loads, no more 50-50. Everybody wants to play off-float game, but once you miss two, that's like you gotta go through those. You gotta you gotta accept that you're not gonna get everyone. So, you know, and first couple of you know, process driven, player-led, all that, all the cliches, etc. And then you go 0-2, and you go, okay, right, I'm taking over. You know, I'm we we have to win this, and it just instills more and more fear. And you don't talk about those other wins, you don't talk about the 15, the three, the um, you know, the the the debut the the debutant, you don't talk about that because all you're thinking about is winning. But there's so many big things happening for for players at different levels that you you actually you're missing an opportunity there. And everybody wants to win. I could I could I coach I want to win but I I'm more interested in in in the competition, the the the the absolute the work that you put in for the performance, you know. Are we are we putting in everything for for that and then the win will take care of itself?

SPEAKER_01:

I I I love it. Uh and you're right, mate, because it's it's one of those tricky ones to articulate, isn't it? Because yeah, a lot of people will always push back on some of this the culture chat. But for for me, I'll just back you up there. Like I think winning goes without saying. I could I don't know a team, even a social team, they want to win. Every rugby team and probably every sports team, you go out there to win because that's it's funner winning. But like as a coach, for me, if you if you just keep saying we've got to win and that sort of things, it's really just a cop-out, and it's quite an average default saying, and it's and it's it's encouraging, really weak coaching process because you're just redistribution distributing pressure from the coach to the players by saying, Gotta win team, gotta win. Like, yeah, we know what we want to know. It's like saying, I want to go to Hawaii for my holidays. Yeah, we all do, but the process is right, I've got to work for four weeks to actually get the money to go. That's the process, that's what we focus on. How do I earn the money to go? And you don't just say, we've got to go to Hawaii. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Move on. We know we want to go. We've got to keep working, and we've got to go work every day and save a little bit more and have a plan and a process and go from there.

SPEAKER_00:

And as as much as I want to protect the players in terms of that, and I'll I'll get better at articulating this in the future, I need to get a way to say it without making people think or or coaches think or players think that we don't want to win. But you know, as much as I want to protect the players with this uh this viewpoint, it's also a way to prevent myself from coaching out of places of ego. You know, you want to beat this coach, you want to be the best coach, you want to um fear, we have to win, otherwise I'm gonna lose my job. Um that's and then authenticity goes as well because you inevitably you're gonna do something that you that's that's not you. And that, you know, I found with especially with with my faith, I I don't find my ident identity in my perfect in my team's performances. You know, my identity lies very much grounded in my faith. And that is that that has made a big difference for me as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Can you just touch on your faith there before we go, Andre? Because I'm I just love hearing people talk about how their faith and their coaching and their um being is connected. Would you be able to just enlighten us a little bit on your outlook on your faith?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Ben, it's uh it's it's quite funny that that you ask about this because before coming here, I I don't think I was as as as close to to God as as I am now. Um I I truly believe he's brought myself and my family this way because he it gave us a chance to disconnect from from that side. Uh we had to find our own way on this side. And we we found a church, we found a community, connect groups. Uh it's the closest I've ever been. Um and the most optimistic. Optimistic is probably not the right word, uh the most positive I've been with regards to my faith because it's so so everyday, it's so consistent. And it's made a big difference in my family life, and it's made a big difference uh in the way that I coach, you know, so much so that you know, players have started asking, um, as you know, the Japanese, there's not a lot of Christian Japanese, but a lot of them have been asking, why, you know, why we lose, but you're still positive. We we do bad things and you still find the positive out of things. And that's your that's your gateway just to share. I I'm not a preacher, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to force anybody to to listen to me. But when they ask, that's kind of a gateway to share uh the good news, you know, what you experience, and that it's not about me. Um it's uh I'm I'm yet to serve, and that's that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01:

The coach is part of the gateway to sharing. Wonderful statement, mate. And faith gives you the ability to do it more authentically and honestly and from the heart.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Andre Petorius, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Portrait podcast, mate. If I may, I'd like to just wrap up this wonderful, um, well-articulated chat, mate. It's been absolutely phenomenal with my three key points and my three key takeaways that I'd like to chat about. Number one, coach culture is your team's immune system. Now, I think this is probably one of the best analogies I've heard of the word culture. Protect healthy and reject unhealthy. The system, you know, connects itself. What you tolerate is what you get. And when you relate it to health, you can all understand that. And I think it's just a wonderful little metaphor to come back to. Culture is your team's immune system. So keep checking in on it and make sure it's always at its optimal. And you do that in health, you can do that as a coach. Number two, this beautiful learning you had and philosophy you had of understand and assist. And I loved it when you said you work to break the chain of the way you were coached when you were younger. And you do that by first understanding the person that's standing in front of you. And we talked about this phrase that good coaching doesn't treat everybody the same way, they treat everybody different because everyone is different. When you understand the individual and their differences, you can understand them better. And then from there, you can actually assist them in their journey to becoming a better player and a coach. Uh and a person, sorry. Well, it actually applies to coaching too, a better coach. Number three is this phrase that you said, this calling up, not out. And I just think it's lovely because sometimes the calling people out becomes a little bit of a default pattern, and you often don't give it real kudos and actually be really intentional about what it's doing. And you mentioned that when you call up, you is you catch someone doing something right. And I love that because there's so many more opportunities to praise that, and the psychology behind that is you get more of what you're asking for. The second aspect you talked about was not pushing people down with your words, assisting them up. So your phrasing is all positive, it's uplifting, it's getting people to be better versions of themselves. It's a lovely phrase, calling up, not out. Andre Petorius, what an absolute pleasure to connect with you on the Coaching Culture podcast. My friend, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, Ben. It's been uh it's been a great chat.