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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Chris Lendrum: Leading the leaders, running the NZRU
What truly turns a collection of talented individuals into a team that outperforms its parts? Chris Lendrum, GM of Professional Rugby and Performance at New Zealand Rugby, reframes culture with a striking idea: ten times eight can equal 60, 80, or 120 depending on the environment you build. From there, we unpack the daily leadership work that makes the “120” possible—where psychological safety meets accountability, and where connection fuels relentless standards.
We get practical about selection and development. Chris explains why technical skill is table stakes and how to hire for drive, openness, and alignment at scale. He shares how to assess worst‑day behavior, blend gut instinct with data, and use pointed questions to keep teams honest to their own plans. We also explore why AI will democratize tactical knowledge, raising the floor to “80,” but why only human leadership—storytelling, trust, and shared identity—elevates the ceiling.
The conversation turns to pressure, perspective, and joy. Chris describes the trap of living between anxiety and relief, and the habits that pull leaders back to gratitude: sleep, movement, fewer distractions, heads up and eyes out. We draw clear parallels between sport and business, and dig into strategy as a living practice—mapping how you win, making choices under constraints, and constantly refining as people and context change.
Finally, we celebrate the rise of women’s rugby as a different, joyful product with a new audience. Chris reveals why more than half of recent Women’s World Cup ticket buyers were new to professional rugby, and how to “commercialize joy” without losing its soul. The takeaway is simple and demanding: every new person makes a new group; leaders must evolve with it. If you care about building cultures that win and last, this conversation will sharpen your tools and widen your lens.
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Culture's what elevates a group. It's the difference between the sum of the parts and the value of the whole. The world is becoming harder and harder for a lot more people to live just day to day and it puts pressure on the search for joy. I don't think people, you know, really appreciate just how hard it is to to do what we've done historically and to keep trying to do it. Anytime one person comes into the group or one person leaves the group, you've got a new group. And New Zealand rugby, we're expected to be market dominant all the time. And it's just bloody hard. Their heads are up, their eyes are out, they're laughing, they're crying. Women's rugby is just a different product. It's incredibly joyful and open.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Chris Landrum. Chris is the general manager of professional rugby and performance at the New Zealand Rugby Union, where he manages both professional players and staff of the Super Rugby teams, as well as the overall leadership for New Zealand national teams. He has been in this overarching leadership space for well over 15 years, and there is a meaning of the game with the bigger picture insight for one of the most passionate rugby nations in the world. Now, Chris is one of the most intelligent people I know and blends their intellect with real passion for the game and the people that are part of it. And he has overseen and led a nation through the very best of times from winning World Cups and successful super campaigns to some of the very hardest times around. Now, Chris leads in this high performance space with incredible grace and is an absolute champion man and truly does have an incredible skill set for running such a high operational industry. Chris Landrum, welcome to the Coach and Culture Podcast.
SPEAKER_00:You're right, Ben. Thank you. What a welcome. It's one of the best of mate.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, an absolute uh pleasure to have you here from uh New Zealand Rugby HQ in Wellington. What a what a what a absolute pleasure. Now, Chris, we will start with the big question is how do you define culture and and from your perspective?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah. So look, thanks for having me. First of all, awesome to be here and chat with you, mate. I in a role like this, um you spend quite a bit of time talking about what culture is. You know, you hear different views and and theories from people, you go to seminars and so on, and uh your definition probably changes over time. But the the the way I'm describing it to people at the moment is by asking a question, and the question is, what's 10 times 8? And the logical answer is 80, right? Um, but sometimes when you're talking about teams, the answer to 10 times eight might be 60, or it might be 120. And to me, the difference between the 80 and the 120 is your culture. Culture is what elevates a group. Uh it's the difference between the sum of the parts and the value of the whole. And I don't know, maybe I was slightly mathematical brain underneath there or whatever, but that that's really resonated with me. That's that's the way I envisage it. It it's about elevation. Um, but if you get your culture wrong, as as you know, widely experienced in rugby, you've probably seen some cultures that haven't been so good, then actually the the team can perform less than the value of its parts. Um and that's when uh that's a bad time, and that's when people like me sometimes need to come and step in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so when you get w when there's a knock on the door from you, mate, you that that's when that's when the culture or things have not gone to plan.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I l I like to I like to make sure I'm I'm present enough in the better times, you know, like building um building trust with people is is essential, right? Um but yeah, part of the part of the role is definitely being a troubleshooter and helping to realign and and get things back on the right path. So uh yeah, you you've got you can't just have a relationship based on being there in the bad times.
SPEAKER_01:No, you wouldn't want that either, mate. Otherwise that becomes a chore of a j any job doesn't want that, right? Any role. That's that's a horrendous where you're just that person, isn't it? That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, that that's that's definitely right. So um I've been I've been incredibly fortunate in the role I've been in to see some amazing practitioners in this space and just learn. Like I know you'd agree, you're just learning all the time. Every time you meet somebody new, every time someone new comes into your group, you're learning. Um and and cultures evolve and and and people evolve. So um yes, it's a fascinating space, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Isn't it? Who's been some of the best? Who's who's some because obviously you get a lot of people walking through the door with some great ideas. Who's some of the ones? Anyone stand out that that you just go, yeah, they're bloody good.
SPEAKER_00:People stand out for for different things. There and this is a this is one of the I guess the truths about leadership, right? Like nobody's complete, nobody's the perfect package. People have have strengths, right? So if I I think about somebody that you and I are both familiar with, Steve Hanson, right, his ability to drive motivation and accountability inside a team environment when when I worked with him with the All Blacks was exceptional, right? Like he he could wrap an arm around people, players knew that uh he was there for them, but he also drove this relentless excellence inside the environment. Um and obviously had wonderful people around him, you know, players and and other management. Um when I look at creating real connection, I look at some of the work that I've seen uh in the women's game from the likes of Alan Bunting, um, Corey Sweeney. Um, you know, the you walk into those um But Laidlaw, another example. Uh you walk into those sevens environments uh in the time that I've been in rugby, and you just feel immediately welcome and uplifted, and you can see uh the players and people living the values and behaviours. Um uh and and that's like that's culture, isn't it? That's when you when you live it, when actually everything around you um looks like the words on the wall or uh on a piece of paper. And um yeah, so look, uh it's just an amazing role. I see so many great coaches, great leaders, and again, you know, you just learn all the time, you adopt little bits and pieces of things you see, they start to inform your strategy or your mindset, and you and you go on. I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Isn't it amazing when you talk about like when you walk into a place, you immediately feel welcome and uplifted. Now, if that's what you're feeling as um walking in, you can only imagine what a player, a new player's feeling coming into environment. If if they're feeling immediately welcome and uplifted, you just it you know, the answer's not going to be 80. It's gonna be 120, if that's the start point, isn't it? That's the kind of invisible thing that you that culture is, right?
SPEAKER_00:It's a good little test actually that you've struck on there is how quickly new people come to it inside an environment. Um, because that tells you a lot of things about uh how people are inducted in, um, the care that senior leaders in a group show. Uh the faster they feel uh, I don't want to say comfortable, but the faster they feel that psychological safety, that ability to be authentically them, then the faster you can get them into a high performance space, right? So to me, the high performance space is where you you balance that that safety care connection with the motivation and the accountability, right? If you get those things in balance, then you're in the high performance zone, the learning zone. If you get too much safety and care and not enough uh edge or accountability, then you're in a comfort zone. But likewise, if you get too much on the accountability side and you haven't built that foundation of care and connection, then you get a culture of fear, right? So the whole goal is looking to maximize both, and then you're you're in the performance zone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's yeah, that's the one. A lot of people when you talk the culture, I hear a lot of people often say, oh yeah, but it's a little bit airy-fairy, but what you're talking about is it's gotta have an edge. It's got to have a balance, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00:It does. So that there's culture in this performance culture, and um I've you know seen seen teams with um with edge and and coaches that bring edge, but they haven't built that foundation of trust, haven't been vulnerable with their with their fellow coaches and management or the players. Um and I and underneath it all, it's just people are looking for authenticity, I think, um, and the ability to express themselves. That's a term you hear a lot in rugby, isn't it? You know, I just want the players to go out and express themselves. Well, you can't expect that to happen on the field if you haven't enabled it off the field. And and again, yeah, go back to the maths. That's the 10 eights, isn't it? You know, how do you how do you make uh each of those eights a 10? That's the um that's the the goal.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I I love that just the the the separation of that breaking up culture and then a performance culture, which is the space that you're operating in, is there is a difference, isn't there? Culture, so like there's a performance piece to that, which is it does create a little a nice distinction where you've got to have that balance of edge, accountability, authenticity.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's really it's hard, it's hard though, mate, isn't it? It's hard, you you you'll know it's um it's easy to diagram that on a piece of paper, and it's it's it's maybe a little bit less easy to go in and and look and and and and search for it when you're coming in. Like in my position, I I'm not in team environments every day. I come in and spend time and I observe and support and connect and and draw some judgments, draw some some thinking about what I'm seeing. Um but the hardest thing of all is to be in the arena and do it, to actually create that performance culture. And and that's where your appointment of people, this the people that we select to lead our programs is just so critical. That's for me and my role, that's the biggest impact I can have is really leaning in hard when we get to appoint people into key roles to try to make sure we've got the right people. Because that'll set there'll be the the biggest input into the culture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I guess that drives me. What do you look for in in in your appointments? Like if you're looking at a coach for whatever team, what are some of the big rocks?
SPEAKER_00:Um well I think it's coaching is just another people role, isn't it? Like it's a it's a leadership role, but if you start with what are you looking for from from people, whether they're because you get people in your team, right? And they're your future leaders. So I th I think the qualities that you look for in people generally um are uh you want people that are driven. Um I think you want people that are open, right? That have got a would you know, there's that um uh growth mindset, um, I guess is a is another term that people use commonly in this space for open. Um I I think you want people who are competitive, right? Um and who are we would say coachable or teachable again. So it's that it's the drive and the will to want to get better. Um and then when you take that up to a program leadership level, what you're really looking for is again, driven people who are gonna work hard, um, who are confident, right, who have a significant amount of self-belief, but that that doesn't border on um arrogance or um a lack of openness. So you've got to have confidence in your ideas, but you've got to be open to challenge. Um and then for me, what's really important is alignment, right? Like we're a New Zealand rugby is I feel like is one big team. We've got, if you think about us like a rugby club, we've got men's teams, we've got women's teams, we've got cults teams. Um and yet we all represent Autiar Roa. Uh, and there's got to be something that binds us together. There's there's a common identity there, and what I want to see in leaders is an alignment with that identity, with the organization, and a sense that we are one team, you know, we're not in silos. Um, that's that's really important. Love that, mate.
SPEAKER_01:I I I actually really enjoy how a lot of those, like, I know this is always there, but what this is almost the same as culture is that the actual exynos of doing what you're doing almost goes without saying, isn't it? Like the the expectation that you know how to do all the techniques and things like that is it goes without saying. What what the the bit that's you're choosing in is some of these human qualities. You said coaching is a people role, and this is part of the this conversation around culture. Like, we're not we we we understand that the X's and O's, the skills and drills are part of it. We that's there, but what we can really maximize is these things that you said, like people being driven, open, competitive, having self-belief. This is it's hard to measure those things. It's it's more of a gut feel, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a it's a really interesting time to be talking about this with the uh I don't even want to say the onset anymore. We're right in the AI age, aren't we? And and what I to your point, what I sense is that technical and tactical rugby knowledge is going to become easier and easier to come by, right? And if if you go to a um a sort of tech seminar, they use the word democratized, which basically just means it's going to be easier to access technical and tactical knowledge. And I'm sort of preparing our coaches for the fact that probably next year when they turn up to a media conference, they'll have journalists who have input into um uh an LLM, the question, like, how should the All Blacks beat France tonight? You know, and and so rather than just, you know, semi-informed thoughts, they might actually come with a, hey, this is the playbook, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? And so that the the access to knowledge about how the game is played is going to become easier and easier for people um to find and to learn maybe. Uh, but what what that technological development will not take away is the ability uh or the the uniqueness of one human or a group of small number of humans growing a bigger group culturally, right? To the the I don't believe that technology is gonna help humans get from the 80 to the 120. It'll help us max out at the 80. Uh, it'll be easier to get to the 80 from that you know analogy I used right at the outset. But that gap between the 80 and the 120, I believe, and I could be wrong, this would be terrible, couldn't it? You could record this and then look I'll look like an absolute Muppet um in a couple of years saying this. But I um, you know, I believe the 80 to the 120 is a human endeavor, and only humans will be able to unite and grow and elevate a group. So it's a it's a fascinating time to be talking about all of these things. Um like change is is so upon us. Um and it's been an impact on sport massively.
SPEAKER_01:Massively. Man, this is a really uh it's a really futuristic statement, Chris. So democratise, easier to access technical and tactical knowledge as we go. The access to knowledge is going through the roof. So I guess the that question becomes for like leaders, particularly, and this is where you're awesome, is how and where you grow yourself, right? Like Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Um and that's it's like everything's evolving every day, so you're never done. Um and what should be the case, and I it's it's for others to determine this about me, not me, but uh I should be a better leader today than I was yesterday. And I should definitely be a better leader today than I was six months or twelve months ago. Um and you you learn through experiences, as you know, it's often easier for humans to learn through adverse circumstances when things go wrong, you know. And I think about the kind of crucible moments in my career where I learnt I've learned so much, you know, um, through hard times. Uh one example that springs to mind was working with the Crusaders um in the wake of the terrible mosque attacks in Christchurch in March 2019 and going through their their brand, like what what will we do with the the Crusaders brand, which New Zealand rugby obviously had a massive involvement with, but there was a huge amount of emotional investment um in the region and in the club in. And and you start with ideas. I mean, I'm I'm trained as a lawyer, and as lawyers, you're trained to find the right answer, or you you seize upon what you think the right answer is, but you through experiences like that, you you learn about uh leadership and the way that you have to take people where you find them. You know, the community in the top of the South Island was not uh largely in the same place and and of the same worldview as as I was at that time. And so like I I learned about the the difference in leading between being at the front of a group and and you can move a group if you're at the front of the group. But if you're too far, if your ideas are too far out in front of a group, so actually you're not in the group, you're way out, and you're trying to drag people to something that you might think is right, um it's very, very hard to achieve that, you know? So I mean that's just one example, but man, um being through some great times and some hard times here, and you you learn a lot through those hard times.
SPEAKER_01:Man, I I love that statement. You can't be too far out in front of the group. That's a powerful statement, like that we we don't hear a lot of. Like, can you just dive into that a little bit more? Like, what what's the the reference to that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um if I could diagram it, I'd I'd draw a circle and I'd if if you're on the perimeter of that circle and you're you're trying to arrow in a certain direction, then I think, you know, that's that's like saying you're on the perimeter of the group, right? You've got some ideas, some forward-thinking ideas, but at your core, you're still with that, you're still with that group, and that group's still with you. Then you can move them, right? Then you can move that group towards, you know, the direction that your arrow's pointing in. But if you're outside the perimeter and you're jumping up and down saying, we must do this, we must do that, um, this is the way forward, it's very rarely successful. And that's again, it's the power of connection and like even storytelling that resonates with people. That's what moves people. Um you just you can't get too far out in front of your group. Uh, and and you see leaders all the time making that mistake, you know, trying to uh make revolutionary change when the the people that they're wanting to adopt that change just aren't there yet. Um and so you you need to, I think you need to, in that situation, you need to slow down, you need to reconnect, understand where your people are at, why they're at that, live in their shoes, and then reset yourself to what's achievable.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love it, oh just a little flash when you're talking about that the central core, that's essentially like the heart, isn't it? And like it's the heart of an operation. And to influence the heart, you've got to do things which are a little bit immeasurable sometimes. And you just mentioned the thing like storytelling to capture the heart.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, we're wired for that, aren't we? Stories, humans, and you you know that. Um, and I'm I'm sure most of uh your your listeners and watchers know that, you know, that that's how you connect with people. If you it's first of all, by telling them your story, right? Opening up a bit. Um and that those are the foundations of what we were talking about before, that safety in care. Uh I call it sometimes psychological safety. Um how you build that is by being open about yourself. Uh, and then that empowers other people to feel like they can be open as well. Uh, and then all of a sudden you've got something, don't you? You've got a chemistry and a connection starting to build.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's absolutely right. And I the just that phrase, you start with your story first. And if you're open about yours, if I talk about my mother, make sure you think about your mother, right? Like it's it's that kind of principle, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:So like Absolutely. And how open you choose to be at the outset, you know, like are you gonna be 13% open? Are you gonna be 40 or 50% open? 13's probably too low, you know, you're just scraping the surface, it's hard to connect with. There is there is such a thing as being too open initially. Yeah, right. Um uh but I got great advice back in the day. It was actually advice about um working with media. And the advice was give them a bit more than they're expecting, you know, that they're they're not expecting you to talk about this or be open about this. Well, just give them give them a little bit more, you know, to to demonstrate again that you're you're open. And I think that's a great um that's a great way for humans to connect, you know, like give a little bit more. Don't have to open yourself up completely, but just give a little bit more. It's a tip of the hat to the other person or the group. Hey, this is an open and safe space. Um come in and come in and join us.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, mate. I can tell you just as a little personal aside, like I I love when people say, Good morning, how are you? And just if you take what you just said and you and you made that part of your practice, daily practice, and when someone says, How are you? You actually give a little bit more than good. You might say, I'm actually awesome today because I had a wonderful conversation with my daughter on the way to school today about dinosaurs. And that little bit of snippet, just that, just leads you into the other person, doesn't it? And it just brings that. Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. You've only got to go one step deeper, don't you? And that's that's so true. And I do the same thing with my kids uh, you know, at times, uh, how was your day? Why? Do you know? Just why? And uh you'll get something, you know? And it and it as as a leader, you you ask those questions, you might get something that actually informs you and grows you, you know, and makes you better. So great point, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think it's in a in a in a organization like New Zealand Rugby Union, which you're at, do you think you can still apply that to interactions and relationships in a business setting like that?
SPEAKER_00:Same principles? Definitely. I think uh I mean we're in a it's a funny organization in some ways because it's a wonderful organization and a a wonderful game, but we're we're caught, aren't we? We're between um, I guess, a normal corporate with all the requirements that that come with that, and what we call a high performance organization. But actually the synergies between business and and performance sport are are really great, right? Like there's so much commonality, and I think the world's waking up to that. High performance is a phrase that we use in sport, but it it's not unique to sport. If if you're a um uh you know a highly achieving business person, um, then you need probably to live your life um uh in a way that's pretty similar to people who are in high performance sport, right? And you see you start with yourself, like start with the me level. Um you've got to get your personal hygiene factors right, like you've got to sleep well, you've got to eat well. Um if you don't do those things, if you if you drink heavily, um, you don't exercise, you're you're not gonna be at your best, are you? Like, especially as you get older, mate, as we're both probably starting to find out, you know. So you start with those things, um, and then I think in terms of how you grow teams, um, you know, you you you look at the we and some of those success factors in terms of how you select people. Um, you know, we talked about driven people, open people, approachable people. Um, you you need that in business as much as you need in sport. And then the last thing is the us, which is the that's the chemistry and the connection and the culture that you know you that you talk about so well uh on your podcast. So um I I just think that they're so alike and aligned. The only difference between high performance sport and and business is that I I suppose not everybody can um can physically get to that high performance sporting level. You know, you should have the best of the best uh competing, especially at international level. And maybe it's a little bit more challenging to create teams of the very best of the very best um in the business world, but but not impossible. Yeah. Fascinating stuff, eh?
SPEAKER_01:It's it's it's I I love it, mate. Well I uh what I'd be really intrigued is is there any sort of misconceptions around your role? Like you're obviously this overarching uh looking after the bigger piece, and but that's all filtered down. Is there any misconceptions about your role? Because it's it's a public role and y you take you take some flack sometimes around all sorts of stuff. Is there any misconceptions you think about it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh look, there I mean, there are there there always are. I mean I've uh y you're in this environment um forty, fifty, sixty hours a week, right? Uh you're thinking about taking the game forward uh i in in whatever way you can, just all the time. And um what you learn is as much as the individual wins and the you know, the wins are great and the occasional losses are are really hard, you you can't you can't live on those. You you have to have a a bigger and deeper perspective and a sense of the long term about where you're going. So you know, I'll get a lot of people contacting me, say after the all blacks lose, or after the black ferns lose, and you can tell that they're down, you know, they're passionate Kiwis and they want the all blacks to win, or they want the black ferns to win, and we haven't, and it's hurt them. And of course it it deeply hurts me, but you you learn to to roll. Um I I I think allied to that, mate, it it's probably the misconception about uh about rugby and New Zealand rugby, and therefore what I and and my team does is just how easy versus how hard it is to do what we do. Um you know, we historically the All Blacks have won, I think, 77% of the tests that they've played over 150 years. The black ferns are higher, right? The black ferns are like 85, six World Cups for black ferns, three World Cups, um, Olympic medals and sevens. People just think it's almost like we've got this entitlement to win. And regardless of the fact that there's 10, 12 other countries out there who are doing everything they can, tearing down the walls to beat us, and are getting better and have grown in the professional age. And this is one difference between uh high performance sport and business. The analogy I'll give is imagine if you're mobile, right? You're the owner of mobile petrol. And mobile, I don't know what they've got. They used to have probably about 10% of market share, right? Because BP and Z and whatever else. But the owners of mobile were probably pretty comfortable. You know, mobile would be profitable. Um, the business probably looked good uh on the PL and the in the balance sheet. And so at 10% of the market, they can be happy, right? They survive, profitable. Uh that's not the case in sport, is it? Every weekend two teams go out and one has to be dominant. Uh and uh and the test of your success is winning, so better than 50%, or market dominance, right? You just win all the time. And New Zealand rugby, we're expected to be market dominant all the time, and it's just bloody hard. And I don't think people, you know, really appreciate just how hard it is to to do what we've done historically and to keep trying to do it. And that's not an excuse either, by the way, because we're unashamedly after market dominance, you know, and and when we don't get it, that hurts. Um, and we look hard at ourselves, but the reality is it's super hard, and you can do a lot of things right and not get there.
SPEAKER_01:Well, mate, you've done a wonderful job. Like when you just stop and reflect on some of those numbers which you have grown, the market dominance. It's there's been periods in in your involvement where the all blacks particularly have been absolute dominant, and it's testament to all that work behind the scenes. But what I I am interested though, what where does the pressure come for you? Like, that's a lot of pressure for anyone to to cop. Well, what are some of the pressures that you've had personally around this and how have you dealt with them and got through them? There is pressure, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Look, there's there's no doubt about that. And if you're not careful, and I haven't always been careful, you end up just with two emotions, right? Uh you uh either have anxiety about how things are going to go, and then when they go well, when a team wins, you feel relief because you think, oh yeah, great, you know, we we were supposed to win that, or we we were good enough to win that, and we did. That's good, we've we've delivered. But where's the joy in that analysis, you know? And I think people probably think about, you know, to the extent they know anything about what I do, they probably think, man, that's an awesome role. Imagine all the stuff he does every day. And and sometimes I have to remind myself of that, but look back at my day, look back at my weeks, look at the people I was talking to, look at the issues I was dealing with. Isn't that amazing? Um, so remembering to generate some joy and gratitude um is for me that's been quite challenging, if I'm you know, if I'm really honest. Um, I as a leader, you have to keep trying to find that joy and instill that gratitude in your people. So it's actually forced me to be probably a little bit less introverted, to keep my head up, um, keep my eyes out, uh, think about my people, um, because naturally, if you just let the pressure get on top of you, you get into a hole really quickly. And again, there's probably some synergies with with playing, right? And and and coaching in in um in that example. The other thing I do mate um to make my life a little bit easier, one of my hygiene factors is I I don't read a lot of media. Um I um and I don't really do social media at all. Um and I think that just I just don't see those things adding to um my ability to do my role or my ability to be at my best. Um and so I just keep away from that largely. Uh generally when there are things that I need to see, um, you know, opinions or ideas, I I know that those those articles or those podcasts will find me. Um and uh and and I just try to keep my focus on what's in front of me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, mate, that's a cool little reflection, Chris, around you gotta be careful not to go to those two emotions, anxiety or relief, and bring them back to remember to generate some joy. Just that phrase in itself and and instilling it in your people, head up, eyes out, that's awesome. And and I think there's one little caveat you talked about it's similar to playing. There's a little bit of a difference between players and and say coaches and and your role, is players just they can just focus on self, whereas in your role, similar to a coach's role, you're actually got to get yourself right in order for others' benefit. Like you're not just looking after yourself, you're looking after a team underneath you. So your hygiene elements that you're talking about is whilst it's for you, it's also for the benefit of a lot of other people. So it's not just a insular player's perspective where they're just trying to get themselves right for for them, and the byproduct is the team will do well. You're actually doing it for everybody around you, right?
SPEAKER_00:You Yeah, it's and and so you've got to in a role like this, you've got to ask yourself, what's what's your impact, right? So um for me, like my role is is not to drive a culture in one of our teams. Like that, that's that's for our players and our coaches to do. But for me, it's about creating the conditions for success for our teams. Um obviously I've got my own staff um here, Auckland, Wellington, around the country. Um, and uh you can be a bit more hands-on and and and driving of culture with that group. But for me, the the role as as you know, you know, I'll I've as you definitely know, I was not a rugby player of any note, right? Like I loved I I loved the culture of rugby and the team, um, is why I kept playing um until I finished. But I wasn't any good at it for a whole bunch of other uh very obvious reasons. Where did you finish up?
SPEAKER_01:What what level did you did you finish up? Was it 8080s? Is that what we're talking?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, it was Otago uni social uh social rugby, uh a long way from uh where I might have wanted to be when I was a young tacker. Um so it for me, like I I can't go into the all blacks or the black ferns and and uh tell these people like how to be better technical and tactical coaches. I can't tell uh an S and C how to improve the team's conditioning profile. Um, but what are my impacts that I can have in this big sort of overarching role? I guess the biggest thing is selection of people, right? Getting the people right that align with our values, our behaviours, um, uh have the talent and the capability. And then for me, it's about asking good questions. Uh, you know, when when we sat down in a review, we said uh that the team would focus on this. And I've come in for the last couple of days and I haven't seen this. So how are you addressing this? And you know, sometimes the answer might be, uh, well, Lendo, we're addressing this by this, and and and and you're not seeing it, but this is what we're doing over here. And you say, okay, that's cool. And sometimes the answer is, oh yeah, you're right. We we we sort of have got away from what we said we were gonna do. Um, and maybe there's a good reason for that, and sometimes there isn't. Um so so for me, that's that's the role, right? Like you you don't drive the culture, but you you put the people in place that are gonna drive it, and you and you work really, really hard to nail that. That's the biggest impact you have. If you get your people selection wrong, it takes a really long time to unravel that. It's costly, it's messy, it impacts on performance. So for any leader, I think spending a a significant amount of time focusing on who you're gonna appoint um is critical. And then it's asking questions and removing hurdles for people. I get a lot of a lot of phone calls from across the system. I've got a problem, we've got an issue here. Okay, well let's see what we can do about that. Um and Yeah, so you you you build again, those are the those are the calls that when you respond to, you build trust and and relationships which you can then capitalize on and leverage off later.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think there's a little bit for just for uh leaders of other businesses and stuff which potentially don't have the sort of scope of intel you can get on whoever you're selecting, do you think there's a element of gut feel that you can have about someone when you're selecting people, just going, this person resonates with me? Or or do you think that's more you've got to be a a bit more deeper diving than that? I think gut feel is important.
SPEAKER_00:And there's actually there's a lot of emerging science and research about the importance of you know system one thinking, like your gut feel, that fight flight. Um your body, your body's a good coach, actually. You know, it tells you things for a reason, but it can't all Be that. And you know, one of the things I've learned in terms of these this deep dive into people selection is you should go for a bit of science. You should use personality profiling. You really need to understand not just what a person is like on their best day, because if you meet them at an interview and then you do reference checks with people who are probably their mates, then you're just going to get a view of what people are like on their best day. What you really need to understand as a leader and a selector of people is what are they like on their worst day? What's going to be the ripple impact on your team? You know, you if we go right back to the 10-8s, then um what's what's going to be the impact on the team when that person is not at an eight? If everyone else, uh if the other nine people are at eight, this person's at six, are you going to equal seventy-eight or fifty-eight because of the ripple of that person's down day? Or are you going to be at 118? So um I think yeah, so the answer, mate, is you you've got to have both, right? You listen to your gut. It it it generally tells you the right thing to do, but make sure you've got some data and some science uh or some greater insight, objective insight to to um back that up.
SPEAKER_01:I love it, mate. Your body's a good coach, but add data and objective data to it. Uh mate, I reckon that's a really awesome phrase, is like as a when you're selecting, as in your role and any role that's selecting people, is you know, having that in mind about what are people like on their worst days. Probably on the interview, they're at their very best generally, but what are they like at their worst? Because it does have an impact and it does have a flow-down effect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and and there are questions and things you can ask about that, but what it really tells you is a story about the person's self-awareness, right? And and and you know, again, you go back to some of those words we were talking about earlier: driven, open, teachable or coachable. Um, like awareness of yourself, what makes you tick, why you do certain things or why you respond in certain ways when certain things happen, and being able to be open and communicate about that to people around you is just critical, right? If you're trying to get to that 120 level, then that's you know, that knowledge of self that you can then help to inform others. Oh, you know, I I I know why Ben's a bit down today, and I can understand why. Okay, now we now we know, right? We can talk about the ways to get Ben back up.
SPEAKER_01:This is some this is some absolute gold for any anyone leading stuff around, Lendo. This is absolute magic, mate. I can see why you have been in your positions for so long, mate. Just the way you articulate words is absolutely outstanding. Absolutely outstanding.
SPEAKER_00:Well, mate, I just I'd I would again, you know, I've been privileged and it is privileged to work in this role because you see some of the the very, very best um and are consistently exposed to it, you know. I mean, I've spent a lot of time over the last 10 or 15 years with people like Wayne Smith who go back to that um uh the discussion right at the outset about culture and and the balance of care and connection and psychological safety with edge and accountability. You know, there's a guy who's he's won World Cups in men's and women's rugby. Like that is just amazing. And as you know, he's an amazing teacher, um, wonderful human. So you just if you're again, if you're heads up and your eyes are out and you're around people like that, you just can't help but learn and you pick up little bits and pieces and apply them. So uh I've had a lot of advantages in getting to where I am today.
SPEAKER_01:Your exposure to the the world's very best is is um is exceptional. But to be fair, to credit to you as well, you've still got to be open enough to t to take in that information. It it it would be very easy to, like you said, to just go down to the two emotions of anxiety and relief and and forget to open yourself up to just be a receptacle to to to house all this this great knowledge that people are bringing by your doorstep every single day.
SPEAKER_00:And I think if you're a if you like to learn, as I think I do, again, that's probably for other people to to to determine, but uh you get into those environments. Like I I'm at my most joyful when I go into those team environments, you know. Like I I love I've spent a lot of time with the black ferns over the last four years, Ben, and I love going in there, you know, and I love watching people go about their business uh and and and just learning bits and little bits and pieces that are relevant, you know, like improving your understanding of what a nutritionist or a sports scientist does, what the SNC is trying to do, you know, talk to the physio, understand the what the manager's doing, chat with the coaches, you know, it's um that's a you you're just learning, you're in a learning mode the whole time. Um, but you're also in support mode, which is and I and I like doing that too, you know. That's why I'm I'm wired to I think to help people to want to help. Um that's what makes me feel good. Uh so that's that's where you get the joy.
SPEAKER_01:I actually I love it, mate. I love your words, and I actually love what you're talking about, um, just referencing some of that black ferns and Wayne Smith's involvement and that, but also your sales, mate, because you've had a massive part to play in in the the rise of the the woman's game in New Zealand, but which flows on to the rest of the world. I know it's a passion of yours. How's this this culture? The woman's game has just gone exponentially through the roof, right? And it's the the joy that that game's been played with is just phenomenal. It's awesome to watch. You've had you've been right there on the you know driving that. What are you what are your thoughts on why that is and how how have you helped that growth from your perspective?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I don't want to don't want to go into a men are from Mars, women are from Venus type of analysis. But the the word you used, mate, there is the word I use as well, which is joy. And that is the experience of women and girls sport. It is joyful. And I love watching our uh women's players like they want to win desperately, but they walk out onto a field again, like they're their heads are up, their eyes are out, they're looking in the stands, they're laughing, they're crying in the anthem, somebody makes a mistake on the field, they're smiling, they're picking people back up. And I guess my thesis on women's sport and women's rugby is like the world is becoming harder and harder for a lot more people to live just day to day. And it puts pressure on the search for joy. Joy is becoming an increasingly hard commodity for more people to find more often. And here we have this amazing growing woman's rugby product or women's sport generally, and it just brings the joy. And men's sport, and like I'm don't get me wrong, I'm as invested in the all blacks as as anybody and and our men's rugby success. Um, but but you know from having been in it, it can be a really serious um tense environment. And uh it's just different. It's not better or worse. Uh women's rugby uh is a just it's a different product, it's a different game, uh, and it's incredibly joyful and open. Um and I love that, and I think that's what people are seeing. You know, they like watching the game, they like watching the way it's played, they like the culture that our players weave through it, um, the way they express themselves on the field and and and frankly are incredible ambassadors off it. You think about some of the greats um of the game that I've um you know been around with, you know, the Sarah Hirany or you know, Portia Woodman, Wycliffe, like they are not just remarkable rugby players, they are remarkable New Zealanders. Uh I think they just they reflect the best of who we are as a as a growing nation, you know, culturally diverse uh leaders. Look at a younger player like a Georgia Miller, just a phenomenal athlete. Uh I just think there's so much to be excited about. And we have done uh I'm really lucky to have Hannah Porter uh lead our women's high performance team. Um Hannah and I have got a really strong relationship of trust and accountability. Um and I'd like to think together, you know, we've done some really good things uh in terms of growing out the pathway and the investment in the women's uh game here in New Zealand over the last three or four years. But mate, the job is never done, you know, there's there's so much more growth to be had, and I I think we we desperately need to focus on how we how we commercialise the women's rugby um and and women's sport in general, how we get more fans into the game, more fans valuing and paying for that joy that women's rugby brings into their lives.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, yeah, it's a cool concept. It's it's fascinating for people to hear that you you the joy is there, but like from your perspective, you have to keep evolving, keep trying to be dominant and trying to commercialise the joy is is is part of the role, right? Like that's yeah sounds a bit rough, but it it's the reality, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like well, it's it's you want to sustain it. Yeah, sustainable. Like I what I want for the for women's rugby is that it remains authentically what it is, but that the value that fans ascribe to that increases so that so that we can sustain that growth, so that it can keep building, rather than a situation that we've been in in the last 10 years where the the vast majority of the money that is raised for the for the game is raised by men's rugby, and frankly, raised by the all blacks, right? And then every time you want to grow in the women's space, it feels like you're having to uh, I would say, beg, borrow, steal from the money that's been raised by the men's game. And and look, that's part of the role is you know, making decisions of the allocation and and what to invest in and when. And you know, the players' association are there with us helping us uh you know make those decisions in the in the player space. Uh, and they've been great supporters of the of the women's game as well. Um, but we've got to insulate this game and and enable it to grow on its own, um, not just be reliant on everybody else being successful and then investing in it.
SPEAKER_01:And shall like the game, protect protect this particular portion of the game, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Make it yeah, massive. It's it's the biggest growth area for rugby, right? So um little stat is from the 22 and 25 Rugby World Cups, over half the unique ticket purchases at each of those events had never been to a game of professional rugby before. Half. Half, over half in each case, in New Zealand and in England. So to me, that tells you everything you need to know about the commercial potential of women's sport and women's rugby. It's a different audience. It's a slightly different game. It appeals to different people. So for rugby to prosper as a game for men and for women, we need to invest and and grow and take the opportunity that the women's game presents us.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, that is an amazing groundswell of people just coming into the game. And that's it sort of gets back to this cultural piece where it where you can't like where is this coming from? There's no data to suggest what it's just this feeling, this sentiment, and probably comes back to the joy, the joyous nature which those players on the field are playing, celebrating the game, people can see it, feel it. Those whispers trickle out, they ripple through a community, and it and it comes back with you know like bums on seats, feet through door, and that that that those crowds are a reflection of that that bigger culture. That's that eight times ten equal a thousand and twenty, um, in that case, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:I think our our job's to take that whisper and turn it into a chatter and then turn that chatter into something bigger, you know, into a wave. It's a bit of a mixed analogy, probably, but um you know what I mean? Like like I just think there's so much goodness in it, uh, in that side of our sport. We just need more people to know about it, uh, more people to see it, uh, you know, to to be able to to touch and talk to their heroes, um, you know, these wonderful ambassadors uh uh that we have in the game, and and and it'll it just builds, builds and builds and builds.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. I that's almost like a little deficient uh definition of leadership, mate, is like taking with turning whispers into into chatter as long as they're the things that you know you want the conversation to be going is to amplify, you know, the whispers. And in that, what do you have a little like you your leadership is you, mate? Do you have a little definition of of leadership yourself? Or is it tough?
SPEAKER_00:I I don't I think your definition changes. Although I mean I don't I don't have a definition, I suppose. Um uh leadership is definitely multifaceted. Uh for me, strategy and being able to point the way on our direction as a team or as a game is a critical part of leadership. And that's something that has uh that's a skill set that I didn't have uh that I've had to actively work on and grow. But it's an area that I love, you know, thinking about the challenge of how for me, like how our teams in black uh continue to win on the international stage forever into the future, you know, so that when when you know I'm 45 and when I'm 85, we can look back and and watch rugby and still see our Teams in Black winning, still see us, you know, weaving our authentic New Zealand culture through everything we do, taking that to the world, you know, playing an attractive and engaging game. You've you've got to be deliberate in in in your thinking about how to achieve that. So that's a big part of it. You know, we talked about selecting people, you know, motivating and inspiring those people, growing them, I think is a massive part of leadership, developing others. Um, and again, just building those relationships of trust, I guess, um, which enables all of those, all of those things that I just mentioned. Um, so it's not one thing, is it, mate? It's um every day there's a new challenge and and you just gotta try to be at your best to meet the challenge.
SPEAKER_01:I love that concept, mate, just on the strategy, and like that's a massive part of your role, isn't it? Like, how do you actually apply some of that stuff, mate? Like you you have to define it, you have to say why it's important, but like how do you actually apply it day to day? Is it an easy thing to do?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think it it's not easy. Then there's work you've got to put into it, but then you get a moment of clarity. Uh at least that's been my experience. A moment of clarity where it all becomes so simple and and so clear and you know what you need to do. And maybe that's I don't know if it's easier in a sporting sense uh when you're pursuing winning, um, or or in a business sense. In the end, strategy for a business is essentially how you make choices when you don't have enough money to do everything you want to do. Um, and that means that strategy's got to be living, you know, your theory about in a business normal business sense, how do you make money, or in in my sense, like how do we win? How do you win when uh you don't have enough money to invest in every single thing that you want to do? Um then you've got to understand what really makes the business or the sport tick. What are the things that are non-negotiable that you even with less resources available to you, actually you're gonna invest more, you know, into say coach development or um into whatever area you think makes the the biggest difference? You have to understand that. You've got to know how your business works, how your sport works, and strategy does that. Uh, you know, if if you can figure out and even map, you know, like on a piece of paper, how is it that our teams win? You know, why is it that for 125, 150 years we've produced amazing rugby teams from New Zealand? Can you actually map that? And and then, okay, what's different now? Can you map that? What's changing in the world? We talked about technological evolution, how's that going to impact on things? Um, you you try to do some forecasting, and then you just keep evolving it because some of the things you think about strategically, you you might think they're important, and then you figure out actually they're not that important, or other things are more important. So, what what strategy is not is it's not static. It's not you come up with it and you set it for five years, you paint it on a wall, and that's what you go for. Like that is to me, that's not strategy. Um strategy is it's just constantly moving and evolving, and you're reviewing and renewing it all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I think that's it's it's almost a little bit like culture, isn't it? Strategy. You can't say this is hardline us, and there's a lot of context, there's a lot of variance to it and nuances, and people like yourself who are well versed in the skill in the in the dynamic of it, you know, that's the art of it, isn't it? Is learning how to tack and change and twist where needed with you know with experience, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you you're never done. I got a great piece of advice uh uh last year, I think, um, about the group, right? So the team, the your your group, the group that you're leading. Um anytime one person comes into the group or one person leaves the group, you've got a new group. And I was like, man, that is that is right. Like the chemistry, the dynamics just change subtly, don't they? And so you've got to evolve. Uh so your culture, you're right with the culture moves every day. Um, and of course you don't change what you do every day, but you just you You're never done.
SPEAKER_01:May I like that. Any anytime anyone comes into your group or anyone leaves a group, you have a new group.
SPEAKER_00:I I really that really resonated with me. You know, it's so simple, isn't it? To say. But when you think about it, there's so much depth to it and it informs what you do. Yeah. No, it's a good one, that one.
SPEAKER_01:That is an absolute ripper. Groups are never static, are they? They're they're they're constantly evolving and moving. I love it. Now, Chris Len Len Lendo, we've come to the time in this thing where we're we're we've we've hit that hour mark, it just goes, it zooms on by, mate. That's yeah that's how we roll here, mate. We just get carried away. Um now I've got one last question for you, brother. It's this what is one belief about leadership that or culture that you believe in that you reckon a lot of your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?
SPEAKER_00:Uh well, here's a thought which I I think uh I I don't I don't want to say it's it's my own. Um it's an idea that I've been interested in for a couple of years, and it's about the value of diversity. Um because you you hear a lot about that, don't you, in in in sport, in society, in business. And uh and I personally you know I I understand I think the value of diversity. But diversity has different values in different situations. So it's it's not it's it's going a step deeper than saying diversity is good. You know, we need more of these types of people with these sorts of backgrounds or this sort of experience, or um and I I distinguish between two situations uh when you need to be in the creative space and think about new ideas and new solutions versus when you're just in the delivery space, you've just got to get some shit done and really effectively and efficiently. And diversity has different values in those two situations. If you want new ideas, new solutions to old problems, having a really diverse group contributing from different perspectives is critical. Um, it's gonna maximize the opportunity um to come up with great ideas. You'll get more ideas from different angles and you'll find the the right path more easily. In delivery, sometimes you need people who are super tight and connected to deliver hard, right? So if you you think about uh take it to the extreme example, like a military unit, for example, those people need to they need to be like brothers and sisters, like family. They have to be so tight, they have to know each know where each other is physically and mentally all the time. In that scenario, if you're not careful, diversity can be a barrier to that, right? Just because of the the different belief sets, the different assumptions that that underlie all of us. Um and so I I guess it's to sum it up, it's just the concept of like diversity is great, but um we are better when we have um diverse perspectives, certainly in business, um, certainly in lots of cases in sport. But sometimes in your job, in your company, in your sports team, you've just got to get stuff done and really effectively and quickly. Possibly contentious, um, but I just an idea that was presented to me, and I think, yeah, man, that that really I see I've got a team of people here who deliver test matches and events, right? And they are so close, they're like family. And they're living in and eat out of each other's pockets on the road all the time. They just have to know where each other is physically, mentally, all the time. You know, they're working 16-hour days, they gotta be tight. So in that scenario, I probably value the tightness uh more highly um than deliberately trying to put together a really diverse team. Gee, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Chris, you it's it's it's a joy, actually, mate, to listen to you talk. Um that's the word. Yeah, that's the word, mate. It is actually a joy because it you you're running the show and to hear this you articulate things like that, uh, and the way you're thinking is is refreshing, it's upbeat, it's ever-changing. And I think it's a testament to your leadership, mate, that it that you're able to put things like that. And it you're not a closed book. The things you talked about earlier about being open, uh growth mindset, you're still competitive. You you you sum that up, mate, in your leadership, and it's it's a it's a joy to listen to, mate. It's an absolute joy. Now, Chris, there we've come to that time. I'd like to just sum up this podcast with my three takeaways that I've taken from this deep and insightful conversation from yourself. Number one is the democratization of the world that we're going through. Now, this is deep, but you mentioned that uh humans now have easier access to the technical and tactical knowledge. That access to that knowledge is everywhere. So the real important part for coaches and leaders throughout is how and where are you gonna grow yourself. And a lot of that is that people side of things. Getting good at the leadership stuff that you talked about, not just X's and O's because AI is gonna be smashing that pretty soon. Number two, I loved this phrase about joy. It came up multiple times, and you referenced that under pressure in hard times, you yourself went to two emotions, anxiety or relief, and you forgot a little bit about the joy, but your ability to remember that, to generate some joy and gratitude and instill it in the people that you work with is hugely important to cultures. You reference the phrases head up, eyes out. And I just think that's a lovely one as leaders, just to remember, especially when times get tough, when you're at your worst potentially, to keep your head up head up and eyes out and remember the joy that this is a game. Love that. Number three, mate, you're never done. I just think um culture, strategy, leadership is always changing. And you made this beautiful little quote that anytime one person comes into your group or leaves your group, you have a new group. The chemistry changes. And I just think that's a lovely one, particularly for this podcast, that just to remind us as coaches, as leaders, even as people of in teams, that groups are never static, they're always evolving. And when you remember that, I think the real personal side of your touch as a leader comes out. Chris Landrum, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, mate. I've loved it. And um now I've got to go and open the door, walk back out into the office and actually live everything that I've said. So um no, I've loved it. I love uh love these conversations, love what you're doing, um, talking about these issues. So thanks for having me.