Matt O'Connor: The Harsh Truths of Coaching Winning Teams

Pressure makes culture visible. With Matt O’Connor, we go inside elite rugby environments to show how trust, standards, and brutally honest conversations turn potential into performance. Matt’s coached at Kubota, the Brumbies, Leicester Tigers, Leinster, and the Queensland Reds, and he draws a sharp line between glossy values and the gritty, day-to-day actions that actually win games.

We talk about social capital as the foundation for candor: when motives are team first and ego stays out, players accept tough feedback because they feel safe. Matt explains how Monday reviews get specific, fast, and behavior-focused, and why language—used wisely—can add urgency. He shares what the best cultures have in common: extreme expectation, accountability from kit room to captain, and a hunger to evolve before opponents catch up. You’ll hear how leader-rich squads accelerate growth, and why giving ownership to lineout callers, attack leaders, and senior players prevents wasted training weeks and builds commitment.

Matt opens up about delegation mistakes, protecting young assistants too much, and the truth about managing up with boards and CEOs. He makes the case for integrity over politics while acknowledging that relationships buy time in tough seasons. We dive into recruiting for self-driven athletes, the amateur-era lesson of owning your development, and how examples like Richie McCaw show what continuous improvement looks like in practice. Along the way, we draw clear parallels to parenting and business: build good habits, make expectations explicit, and create a safe place where direct honesty is normal.

If you care about leadership, culture, and high performance, this conversation gives you a practical blueprint you can apply today—on the field, in the office, or at home. If it resonated, follow the show, share it with a coach or leader who needs it, and leave a review to help others find us.

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Transcript

Welcome And Matt’s Background

SPEAKER_02 1:06

It needs to be confrontational at times to get the best and to change behaviour. As a coach of a professional rugby team, you have a thousand difficult conversations a day because that's that's how we operate. That's what is important to us. If I do it, it means someone else doesn't have to do it. It's a great, great analogy, coaching and parenting. It's one in the same, really. Those high pressure, extreme expectation environments at big clubs and big teams isn't work experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Matt O'Connor. Matt is a former Australian international player, been kept for the Wallabies, as well as an ex-rugby league professional player. He finished his playing career in Japan, where he cut his coaching teeth with the Kubota rugby team. Before returning to Australia and coaching Australia and the Brumbies, he went on to become head coach of some of the biggest teams in world rugby. Head coach of the English powerhouse, the Leicester Tigers, where he won the premiership. Head coach of the Irish Powerhouse, Leinster, where he won the Pro 12, before returning as head coach to Australia's iconic Queensland Reds. It's been an amazing coaching road that Matt has travelled down as a pro coach and at times a rocky one. And I believe there's no better person to talk about the real life ins and outs, stresses and strains of professional coaching than Matt. Matt O'Connor, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast. Thanks for having me, Benny. Great to be here. Lovely to have you here, mate. I will start off right off the bat with you, Matt, is how do you define culture?

Pro Sport Vs Corporate Robustness

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Benny, culture is a load of things, obviously, to different people. It's basically, I think, my definition would be how the organisation, team, corporation, what you name it, operate and how they go about their business on a day-to-day basis. You know, that's that's that's probably the essence of it and how those how those people interact, the language they use, the the actions, the behaviours, the key things that make that group of people tick, really.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

When you say business, does it have any relevance to business? Go about their business?

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've been in the corporate world for the last probably six, seven, eight years, and it's very much a part of that. Not nearly as robust as the professional environments that you and I have both been a part of, but um it's still still very relevant.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

What is the difference, Matt, between corporate world teams versus rugby teams or professional rugby teams, or any rugby team?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

In one word, I'd have to describe it as the robustness of Benny. And it's very, very different stakes. You know, the corporate world is is high pressure and high intense and high intensity rather, but you don't get judged every week. You don't get judged by the fans, you don't get judged on social media as as frequently, and it's it's not nearly the same public domain. So so from that perspective, it needs to be rope, it needs to be instant, it needs to be confrontational at times to get the best and to change behavior week to week most of the time is is the is the reality. What sort of behaviors are you looking to change there, Matty? Week to week?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

In corporate land or in footy? In footy, is there any or are we just consistent?

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, there's a there's a bit of consistency and there's and there's, you know, some week to week there there could be, you know, behaviors, actions, you know, decisions that that have an impact on the result. And and as a result of that, there needs to be a tweak. You are involved in some fairly robust review meetings post-game on a Monday, Benny. And sometimes you need to do that. And and you know, if you if you're talking about being the best and you're talking about winning things, then sometimes there is a need for those behaviors to be adjusted, altered, moved pretty rapidly.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

It's a very unique environment, isn't it? The way you speak in a rugby team and probably a lot of professional teams is very different to the way you you might talk to people in everyday life, right? There's a there's an edge at times at that upper echelon.

Team-First Motives And Social Capital

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, there's a lot of tears in corporate land if you if you apply that approach. A lot of tears. Well, no, there can be Benny, depending on who you're dealing with. But yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's really important. It's really important to have that connection. If you've got that connection with people and your motives, your motives aren't questionable, and it's all what's the best way to describe, if it's all delivered in a team first mantra, then then you'll be well, you wouldn't be surprised, but a lot of people would be surprised with what you can get away with. We were just talking about that. Because if it is, if it is is framed in that team first and it's not ego-based, and it's and it's all about, you know, it's all about making the collective better, then then it's it's it's taken in the right, in the right frame, and and you know, you you've got the connections that build the social capital that you know that everyone's on the same page, everyone's contributing, everyone wants to get better, everybody wants to win. So, so from that perspective, I think you've got to have that that level of direct robustness and reality to what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

When you say the word social capital, what does that refer to?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

What does it refer to? It probably it probably means I would describe it as the layering of that connection with people that allows that allows a little bit more honesty, a little bit more robustness, because everyone's everyone's working for the same goal, everyone's fighting for the same thing. And and if you've got that connection, social capital that you've built up over months, years, decades, you know, people are going to try a little bit harder, people are gonna be a little bit more committed to that cause if they've got that connection and social capital.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Do you think it gives you a little bit more leeway as a coach, too, to if the most definitely.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it comes back to to the motives, Benny. Like as long as as you as long as you, the leader, the coach, is unquestionable in his motives and it's not an ego-based situation, and the players and the staff understand that this is all for the betterment of the group, then as I said earlier, you'd be amazed at what you can get away with. And it's not, it's not obviously getting away with, it's, it's, it's the reality of, you know, of how you can actually structure that message that that is that is robust and direct. And, you know, the there's a lot of there's a lot of commentary now around, you know, leaders in whatever sphere they're in is is having difficult conversations. And you know, as a as a coach of a professional rugby team, you have a thousand difficult conversations a day.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

We were just talking off air on this about the rugby environment is one where swearing at the right time and right place, if you've built enough social capital, can be a very effective tool as a coach. Where in other professions, particularly the corporate world, it's it's almost never going to work, is it? It's always going to be received poorly. Whereas in this industry, yeah.

Difficult Conversations And Language

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well, there's there's obviously different scales of what's acceptable and and what different levels of etiquette there are. But um, I mean, you you're in Japan. The funny thing about about swearing, even with an interpreter in Japan, the interpreter wouldn't swear, but they would understand the Japanese players when when foreign coaches are swearing that it added meaning to what was what needed to be done.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yes, it is uh what do you call that? Enhancing language. Strong makes an adjective even better. Get more powerful, yeah. Certainly wouldn't work in the schooling context, I don't reckon, Matt.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

No, no, and I did a bit of stuff with um the school in Canberra this year, and they have very much a non-swearing policy. That was uh there was a bit of biting of lips and and bits and pieces at stages, but yeah, the the kids are great and you know they they operate like the same as you would in the classroom on the footy field, and I think that's really good for them.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah. Now, Maddie, you've you've coached all over the world, mate. Now, what are some of the what are some of the best team cultures you've been part of?

Best Cultures: Brumbies, Tigers, Leinster

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yeah, I mean, I I I was incredibly I was incredibly lucky coaching-wise to be in very, very successful world-class environments. As you said, went from went from Kubota, where we were brand new to the top league, and and that was an evolution of what happened there, to the Brumbies to to the Tigers at Leicester and then Leinster and then and then the Reds. And yeah, I mean, phenomenal. I mean, the the things that drive those are, you know, there wouldn't be a lot of difference, Benny, between the when you break it all down. There's obviously differences around how things go together, but the Brumbies, Tigers, and Leinster, very, very similar around things like extreme expectation, around, around winning, and that's what we are here to do. And we need to work as hard as we can to achieve that. Things like accountability, you know, like everybody was really, really accountable in those environments. And that was that was from the kit man to the physio to the you know, to the junior players, to the to the captain, to the coaches. Um, and everybody had a responsibility to make sure that they delivered on their bits as well as they could possibly do that. So, you know, the those those sorts of things. And and very, very honest and robust, Benny. You know, there was, you know, there was guys like guys like at the Brumbies, George Greagan, Sterling Mortlock, Matt Giddo, George Smith, like around around what you had to deliver and and the things, things like junior guys coming into those environments who haven't played a game of super rugby, but they get a really good understanding very, very early around what what has to happen. And and the improvement piece for those three environments, and especially, especially, this hit home very much at Tigers. Uh and you were there at the time, Benny, when when I when I joined. And the guys that I came across, loads of Test players, blokes that have won World Cups, and to a man, they were interested in being better and changing the things that they had done for 2 3 4 their whole career, were open book around if that is going to make us better, we're more than happy to adopt it. And and the same, the same at um Leinster. When I when I turned up at Leinster, guys like O'Driscoll and Jamie Heastlip and Sean O'Brien and Leo Cullen, they they just wanted to get better. And they saw, they saw personality and the change in in coach and the different bits and pieces as an opportunity to keep what had built those those really strong cultures, but also as an opportunity to change the things that they had been doing because there's there's no perfect rugby team and and um without the ability to adjust, you get those those very, very good teams, especially with the level of of scrutiny and technology in the game now, they get caught really quick. So, you know, you need to be forever adjusting how you're doing it, growing what you do, changing things for the better. And and that's some of that's some of that's the the cultural piece, off-field standard bits, some of that's the mechanics around how you play and what you you know what what your game actually looks like. But yeah, I mean, those I I was I was very, very fortunate to be in those environments where every single year we were a chance to win the competition. And that's what I thoroughly enjoyed, the the performance of it and and you know, making the players better, growing the, you know, growing their currency as a player and and trying to be as successful as we could.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

How did you, with that extreme expectation, how do you drive a culture where that extreme expectation, where there's that drive to be better from the players, how do you, how do you help foster that, particularly in environments where it's not, when you're not winning, like say club level stuff, how how do you get that in everyday coaching an environment or a culture where the players are doing that? Not every team has a George Gregan or a no Martin Corrie that drives such good standards.

Leader-Rich Environments And Accountability

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, I mean, there's a huge and and that's probably that's probably the thing where I didn't need to drive that as much because of those incredibly leader-rich environments that I was in. I sort of took that for granted, Benny, if if that makes sense. And although, and and you were a part of some of those environments as a player and as a coach, I mean, you certainly, you certainly buy into it. It's a huge, it's a huge part of the process um around driving those leaders. The interaction was the important bit with those incredibly good leaders. It wasn't necessarily an education piece. The other environments that that I've been involved with, the Reds is a good one where they had some, they had some senior players that were on the move, but they had a very young group of players. So you've got to invest in in the leadership piece. Have to sit down with them because at the end of the day, as powerful as the staff and the coaching group around driving those messages and driving what has to happen on the field, but also those those key behaviors, actions, language off the field around how we get this group to move forward. And you can't underestimate it. I would stress and I don't want to overplay it, but the honesty in the real bit is is really important. And the integrity from those guys and the empowerment of those leaders in your own individual environment, you've got to get right because if you don't, like it's like a ticking across. It's it's like every time there's a positive involvement from the leaders and the group that that helps us win on Saturday. Every time there's a negative in and around that conversation, in and around those behaviors, in and around those dialogue, well then that has the potential to impact on Saturday as well. So it's really important that you are as the leaders of that, from a staff perspective, educating, driving, mentoring that leadership group because that's going to help the organization moving forward, but it's also going to help in training. It's also going to help in the environment. It's also going to help Saturday on Saturday on Saturday.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

I love that, mate. I think it's when you're talking about this leader-rich environments, I love that phrase you said that it's it's about sometimes the interactions you have with the leaders, because you can't always get through the leaders on the technical stuff. Um, but you can always have those interactions. You can always, as a coach, be honest and real. And that goes back to building that social capital that you talked about. If you're prepared to actually have interactions, good ones, uh, with integrity and genuineness with your leaders, it builds that social capital where then they commit and they assist and they drive and they improve expectations and the culture and the performance as we're.

Ownership, Short Weeks, And Efficiency

SPEAKER_02 17:45

I mean, and and it's it's as simple as this, Ben. Like, you know, if if you're dealing with if you're dealing with your line out caller and you've practiced X amount of line outs in the week, there's gonna be, if you don't engage them and give them ownership of the process at the front end of the week, and this is what we're gonna do, you can waste half the week practicing stuff that the line out caller is never gonna call, that he's not comfortable with. Now, that's really inefficient. And no different with a with a with a back line and you know, or or the guy who runs the attack. If if you think there's all these amazing things we can do, but the leader of that and the caller of that doesn't buy into that because he doesn't believe it and hasn't got the ownership of, then you wasted half your week. You know? And and the the you know, the there's a lot of people who'll be listening that that, you know, the the professional week is a really short week. Um, and you don't have a lot of time to get stuff physically done because it's it's you know, you're going from week to week to week. So you you really got to maximize those interactions and and you've got to sit down and and and and talk to the leaders. Um, because, you know, as as we know, everybody's got stuff going on in the background. So you you don't want to have a situation where, you know, one or two of your leaders are off kilter because they've just got a new baby or their parents are ill, or some of those things in the background that that have a huge impact on us personally, you need to be across so that you can so that you can help maneuver that in any given week. I mean, it it's gonna change, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

I love it, mate. And I think you took you talked about not only is it a wasted week sometimes, but it's also a little bit of lost social capital, too, if you've gone and done it. Most definitely. Yeah. And then you're you're depleting your bank of of social capital, which you don't want to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

No, and that, I mean, I was fortunate I and I and I say that hand on heart. The the guys that I had the the pleasure of coaching all go to my story. And I mean, I I coach some unbelievably good footballers, but special humans at the same time. And, you know, the the lot of that stuff is done, you know, w w from the change room to the training pitch, in the lunch room, in the, you know, having a coffee, you know, all of that, all of that informal combination connection builds so much of that social capital. And it's it's, you know, it's very, very important to be as present as you can in those in those encounters, because there will be a lot of social capital, if we want to use that word, built in and around those, those.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Is there a difference between who you're talking to, Maddie? Like if you if you're speaking to these leaders or the senior players and experienced pros versus your younger players or your academy players or anyone coming through, do you lead them differently, especially around sort of the way you chat, the accountability and the standard side of things?

Delegation, Traps, And Managing Up

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah. I mean, I suppose the the easiest way to Define that, Benny, would be a lot of the time, a lot of the time the the kids coming into the environment or the young men coming into the environment don't understand the expectation. So the early part, now some of that's recruitment, some of that's done before they get in the door, and that's why they get in the door. But you've got to make sure that you explain the expectation. This is what is required of you, Ben Herring, as a player in this environment. Um, and and the senior players, the the very, very good ones, and and you know, the the guys like the Jordan Murphy's and the um and Dan Cole's and the George Fords and the Toby Floods and the Aaron Majors at Leicester, exceptional at that because they've come in. You've got a responsibility as a young player. You want to be really, really good. If you want to be really, really good, you get in the door. As soon as you get in the door, you're a part of this thing, but you've got to contribute. So it's important to explain that expectation. The the more senior guys, the internationals, the guys that have played 50 games for the club, they understand that expectation. So it's it's more maneuvering as opposed to setting out this is what is required of you. My experience was very much, once that expectation is explained, guys will try and do that. They won't actually execute on it every day, but they will try and execute on it. And that's what you want out of uh out of a coach, is this is what we're trying to achieve. Everyone's trying to achieve that. There's no questions around anyone's effort or attitude or motivation to do that. Young players are gonna make errors, they're gonna get it wrong, they're gonna get stuff wrong off the field because they're young men, and you've just got to be there to support those errors in judgment. And and, you know, as we know in life, so much, so much of the of the betterment is off the back of errors. And we've all learned that lesson the hard way.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Wow, we'll go straight into that, Maddie. What's your errors, mate? What's your mistakes you've learned from in this industry and role that coaches would benefit from?

Getting Sacked, Resilience, And Family Impact

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah, good good question. Good question. I mean, I big clubs, so so let's let's talk Leicester and Leinster. Um, big clubs, I was probably coaching too much. See, I I I was I was responsible for the defense, I was responsible for the attack, big hand in what was going on from a unit perspective. And then there's the added load of the management piece and the media piece and managing the the academy from a distance, obviously. So I I needed to delegate better in those in those environments. And some of that was um an error in judgment by me. Some of that was relative to trying to protect some of the younger coaches that were in that environment that were going to be very, very good coaches. But I didn't necessarily want their name associated to a discipline because as soon as the discipline doesn't work with, you know, with social media and and the way that the world works, is that they're gonna be on the hook to be to be moved on. And and that probably wasn't fair to them. I was big and ugly enough and and and I I could cope with that. So that was that was a that was a mistake. The the lack of delegation, Bennett, around empowering others, but but it it it's it's a really high pressure environment. And in saying that, look, I I I didn't never perceived it as working. It was it was it was it was a dream for me. You know, I came out of the amateur, I came out of the amateur era as a player. So like I left school, late 80s, I was gonna be a PE teacher and coach the first 15, Benny. Like that was that was the that was the dream, and and you're probably just just young enough to know that that was the way the game was. Um and then and then rugby goes pro and everybody goes, wow. So from that perspective, um, you know, it was it was a it was a dream run, really. Uh and to be in some of those iconic environments, you know, people would say are some of the world's best rugby environments for for obviously what they've achieved. But it was, it was, it was never working, it was never stress, it was never, it was never pressure. You knew what you were required to do and you went about it. The the reality is that, and there's not many jobs now that can get away with it, that you've, you know, you potentially got a board and you've got a CEO and and you know, they wake up on the wrong side of the bed and they change their mind, or or you have a, you know, you have a significant loss to a rival that you didn't necessarily think you were going to lose to, or whatever it is. Um and that's that's the game, you know. It was it was never it was never a burden, if you like, is probably the best word. It was get up, do your best, get the blokes to work hard, get them to buy in, and and you know, and make sure that their commitment was there, they were doing the right things in the week, and they were playing for each other on a on a Saturday. Well, then, you know, then you're ticking the boxes.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Do you think that delegation piece is is a classic coaching trap where a lot of coaches tend to try to take it all on themselves.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

And have you got better at it? Been really coaching since then. So, so I don't know whether it's it's um I mean, I in hindsight I've I've learnt those lessons. Um, you know, I mean the the the the well, yeah, let's let's stick with this one and then I'll and then I'll get to a managing up question. Just remind me of managing up, Benny. But um, yeah, I mean, I I I in hindsight I I could have, should have delegated more, but there was the protection piece, there's the quality of, there's the delivery of, there's there's all those sorts of things. And and the way I would describe it is that those high pressure, extreme expectation environments at big clubs and big teams isn't work experience. So it's it's it's it's it's really, and and we touched on a little bit earlier, the tiny windows you have week on week to make sure things are exactly right. It's it's a it's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

It's a tricky one. And how do you manage up? What's the what's the issues and and problems and associated things with the managing up concept?

SPEAKER_02 29:00

And I I um off the back of a couple of conversations that I had post-coaching, there was there was a couple of the comments made to me by people that I would respect that, Maddie, you needed to do a better job of managing up. And by managing up, we're talking about key decision makers in that organization. So board members, CEO, those, those sorts of personalities. And at the end of the day, Benny, I sort of went, I'm not managing up. And you've had the misfortune of being in environments with me. I'm not about if someone in the environment isn't team first, if someone, and that that could be up or down, it doesn't matter, if if we're not all on the same page, it's too hard to be fighting internally and managing up. Like you can't manage up if people's motivations and intentions aren't for the best outcome and and aren't at the end of the day team first. So in hindsight, I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't change a thing. You know, I'm really comfortable with, like I said, with with every experience I've had in the game, from winning trophies to getting sacked. Like, there's not a thing I'd change, Benny. And I think I think I'm really comfortable with where I am with the game and and the integrity that I held in the game.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah, mate, and that's an important one. I mean, you've had some amazing highs. You've won the best trophies in the world, but you've also had that other extreme of pro coaching is that you have been sacked, like you said. How how's that experience, mate? Like, is it it that weighs on a lot of coaches, whatever level we're at, that pressure or that that fear of getting kicked out essentially. How did you deal with it? And and how would you advise coaches going forward to to experience that kind of thing?

Amateur Mindset And Owning Development

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yeah, I look, as I said, like it was it was never a job for me, Benny. Um, it was it was just what I was and what I did and and all of those things. So, so from that perspective, it was never a burden. And that's and that's with three kids and a wife and traveling around traveling around the world, which you do forget sometimes. And that is the that is the thing that actually grounds you in and around that because what happens to you personally is is one thing, but the emotional the emotional kick that the family receive is is really, really hard around being sacked. But you can't approach it that way. I never perceived it to be a job. It was n I wasn't a career coach to have a job. I was coaching. I was coaching because I wanted to win stuff. I loved it. It was it was it was a massive rush for me to be in those environments and to be at the pointy end of the game. Unfortunately, I think the pointier the end, the the the sharper the fall.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

You know, it's it's for for the coaches out there, it's it's it's a part of the game, you know. And you know, people, you know, you hear the commentary, whether it be, whether it be cricket, whether it be soccer, whether it be football, whether it be rugby, and and you know, you hear the commentary from the punters, like, why it's the players' responsibility, why don't we get rid of the why don't we get rid of the players? It's not the coach's fault. Well, no, but the logistics of getting rid of the coach and the hope by that very, very smart group of people, from the CEO to the board members who know all, you know, change their mind. And, you know, they have to, they're responsible for maneuvering and governing that organization. So there has to be a perceived change. And and, you know, sometimes that that's for the better. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Sometimes there's there's deeper issues than the coach or or a couple of players that that needs that needs fixing and modern monitoring.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Do you reckon there's a degree in that managing up statement you talked about about you know building that social capital there as well? We we talked about it as with the playing squad that you're in. Do you think there's advice to coaches that that's if you don't want to be sacked as easily, that building that social capital with the management up, the people that make the calls is an important thing to be aware of?

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Yeah, I think, and I think the I think the example of that, Benny, is probably the guys that have come through that environment and have a connection as players to that environment. And we see it a lot in this country with rugby league and AFL. Um, you know, the the ingrown, the homegrown coach who then goes on to be a part of that has that really solid foundation around relationships, around social capital, around connections on a social level with a lot of the board members, a lot of the key power players, CEOs, and and that will give them 12 months or two years, even when things aren't fantastic. And it's that's human nature. That's that's no different to a family business or a company, you know, that that you know, people who've got a long-standing relationship with, they're gonna get away with a little bit more because they they mean a little bit more to the organization. And and unfortunately, professional sport is is no different to that.

Modeling Excellence: McCaw And Others

SPEAKER_00 34:37

It's really interesting. It's a cool concept because I I hear a lot of coaches that are coming through the ranks that have worked their way up sort of the amateur route, often complaining about how are these ex-players sort of leapfrogging me and just like I've been working for 10 years, slogging out these lower levels and not getting anywhere, then the player finishes and they're straight in. And that the answer to that probably, well, in light of what we're talking about, is they've built that social capital with the organization. The organization has a lot of you know deep-rooted understanding of that player, and they and they've built that social capital, so then they're comfortable. You can jump in here and and start learning on the job. Whereas for anyone else who hasn't got that capital built up, yeah, you might need to do it. It's hard to do that.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Oh, and and and the the other thing is too, the dynamics and the mechanics of the professional game is is slightly different to the amateur game as well. So, so they would be comfortable that a guy understands the professional environment. He's been dealing with a professional environment for X amount of years as a player. So he's he's not necessarily going to be disadvantaged in that step, Benny. Like, like someone coming out of school, club, community may be. But um, yeah, it's it's it's it's all relationships. It's it's it's what makes the world work, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah. Maddie, have you always desired to be a coach or has it just evolved post-playing?

Recruitment, Habits, And Parenting Parallels

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah, it was it was it was always in there. It was it was so my my journey was I did an education degree, Benny, and then didn't really want to work. So did another degree and did it did a sports coaching degree. Um, and that that sort of allowed me to work as hard as I could off the field play on on being as good a player as I could be. Um I was fortunate enough, late 80s, early 90s, to be a part of the AIS program where um the Australian Institute of Sport had rugby as a part of it. So so there was there was a load of there was a load of development in that. That and like I said, the the education and then the and then the coaching study was was to be a P PE teacher and play footy and coach the first 15. Was that was that then from from um from thrust into it really at well the the amateur piece, the amateur piece was a very, very different beast in the sense that you were in control of your own development. The coaching bit was was was not nearly the same detail um and time and and and specifics. So you you had to be your own coach, if that makes sense, Benny, to to to grow and and make sure that you developed the best you could as a player. So that led to that led to approaching a little a little bit differently and then involved in in different leadership capacities through through my playing career, and then which I said earlier, when I when I lobbed up to the Kubota Spears, they they had just been moved into the top league. So that is where I got my first taste of out and out coaching. And that was that was sort of late 20s, where I was, you know, where I was responsible for coaching the backs and then and then ultimately head coach while still playing at Kubota. Um and mate, that was that was phenomenal from a from a learning perspective, from a evolving, from evolving, you know, having to deal with the language barrier and the cultural issues and all the things that go with that. It only added to the enjoyment of in hindsight. Um it was it was it was an unbelievable experience. And we we did we did six years at Kubota. It was phenomenal in relation to learning how to coach. Because as you know, you got you got 60, 70, 80 full-time, just about athletes that you're responsible for. So from that perspective, you very, very rarely, even in in professional environments, you get that level of scope to modify behavior, drive culture, change the way we play, change the way we think, all of those things. And you know, you'll you're learning all the time and and you're you're trying to deliver the best outcome for this group of people and this company that most of their people involved in rugby had been in division four, division three, division two, and now finally in the top league, and and you know, now they're doing unbelievable things. So, you know, it's it's yeah, it's it's as I said, everybody on that journey has has had a huge part in in shaping, you know, me as a as a coach and as a person.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Anyone stand out? Let's shape you.

One Controversial Belief: Radical Honesty

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Well the old man probably was was really important and and dad didn't play a game of rugby in his life. He he was rugby league through and through. But what what he did understand was you gotta be better and this is how you win. And and from that perspective, not as supportive as he could have been at different stages, but um, but very real and and very robust in his in his appreciation of the game. And Benny, the the biggest influence probably on me as a player, um, and then and then obviously that I I I transitioned that into coaching Berris Elwood, who was a very, very good wallaby in the late his early 60s. I was fortunate enough to go to school with with Berris's young bloke, Jim. Um, and he coached us for uh seven or eight years. We lost from under eights to first 15, we lost one game of footy. And um and he was a huge part of that because we we we could be winning by and uh a guy, I ran into an old guy a couple of weeks ago, and he he said, Oh, you're that Matt O'Connor. I still remember, I still remember the halftime speech. You're playing against my son, he was at Darrhamarlin, and it was 44-0, and Berris was berating you guys at halftime. And I said, Yeah, no, that that sounds about right. And it was it was just about being better and the standards that you that you live by. And Berris was pretty robust with us, but um, but we knew his motives. And you know, he he was phenomenal around doing what's right. And you you see it a lot in junior footy now. And and the example that stands out to me was it wasn't that particular day, but um I I we had a three. Man overlap. I dummied about on the halfway, broke the tackle, ran under the sticks and scored. Thought I was awesome. And um Bear said, mate, you've got to pass that. And I've gone, what do you mean? I've got to pass that. I scored under the posts. He said, You scored under the post today, but when it really, really matters, you might not score under the posts. And that could be the difference between winning and losing. And that was that was an unbelievable lesson around you've got to get your process right. You've got to make sure that you're doing all the right things all the time. Um, and I I certainly took that into my coaching, Benny, and into into my playing career because, you know, well, from a skill perspective in training, you'll see guys actually make the wrong decision but still get a positive result. But you've got to you've got to wind that back a little bit because there'll be a time where you make the wrong decision and you don't get the result and we all lose.

Host’s Three Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Yeah. Mate, that's awesome. It certainly sets you up for a winning mindset when you only lose one game in about 13 years of playing high school rugby. Incredible. No, it was it was it was a special, special team. Mate, you actually said something earlier there, which I think is it's a really unique thing. You said you talked about that amateur mindset just before, and that it was a really unique time period that you grew up in where the amateurs teach, you have to teach yourself. You have to be your own coach, you said. And and I and I like that as a concept because you get to be different or unique and find your own way. Whereas you could argue in a lot of ways that with the advent of professionalism and and the rise of more coaches, that you get a little bit more spoon-fed in a professional environment. We get told exactly what to do. Do this, do this, this is the system of structure, this is what you need to do. Whereas in the amateur era, you sort of got left to yourself and you sort of had to think about it. What worked for you? How can you get better? What really resonates with the way you do things? And I think a lot of coaches that have come from the era, like yourself, are very practical. You you think about it and you work it out for what's contextually there rather than just following uh, this is the way that we've done it for a gazillion years.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Do you think that's valid? 100%. And and unfortunately, unfortunately, a lot of the kids going into those environments now, they very much think that it's a conveyor bill. And and, you know, at those good environments, at those good environments, there's a there's a huge impart, imparting of knowledge around, around the senior players and the academy players and the young players around this is not going to happen for you. Just because you pull on this shirt does not mean you are going to be all the things that you want to be. I mean, the the the the conversation in a recruitment sense, Benny, is very much for the ones that I would have would be how good do you want to be? You know, how good do you want to be? And how hard are you prepared to be good? So, so you know, I think before people come in the door, gotta you've gotta be having those conversations. When they sit down in front of you, you I would be very much around, you have to own your development. You have to own it. Don't come into this environment and think because you get a tracksuit and because you're getting paid and you get a free lunch, that you're gonna be good. That's not how it works. You have to work incredibly hard and you need to be doing the right things, asking the right things, adjusting the behaviors that really matter so that you can be as good as you can be. And that's what I learned out of the amateur era is that if you want to be good, you need to find the people that can help you be good. And then you need to be the driver of that development. And it's it's no different. And and off the back of, you know, some personal relationships that I have with with guys now, I've done a little bit of mentoring with their kids, and that's that's the message. You sit down with them and and they think that they're in a professional environment, that it's all now, uh that's the hard bit. Whereas, no, no, you no, no, but the academy coach said X and Y. And no, no. You have to own it. It's your, it's your growth, it's it's your it's your career.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

You need to own that development as as best you can. I love that, mate. Be the driver of your own development. Because I'm certainly seeing that too, and the younger kids coming through thinking just because you made the A team, you just can sit back and it'll all be taken care of. But and then the question which I often hear is when play young players talk to me about what I need to do, and you say, Well, what do you think? And they go, I don't know. And for me, that's a red flag around, well, if you're not aware enough to to understand that you need to get faster or bigger, then you're just going through the motions. You're just on that conveyor belt, just happy to go for the ride. And that's what we don't want with our teams. Where I love it when a player is like doing a drill, they've thought about a drill, and you go over and go, what are you doing before training? They go, Oh, I did this in the weekend, I wasn't happy with it. So I've designed this drill to replicate that, and now I'm putting into practice, and if I wrap it enough, it won't happen again. You go, that's the kid that's gonna go well because they're thinking, they're aware, they're owning their own development. They're not just asking me the coach and saying, What could I do better? Correct. Mate, give a little bit to own it, own this thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

And that's right. And and look, we spoke about those environments and and there's loads of blokes, but but Richie McCall is the standout in owning his development. He's the A B's captain, but the evolution in his game from debut to two World Cups was was phenomenal because he wasn't happy with that how good he was here. And he and he could have very easily been. He was the best seven in the world. But he grew um and and grew his leadership and grew his understanding and and grew his ball carry and his his his jackal threat, whatever it was, he just owned his development and drove it to the nth degree.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

I think that's absolutely, and just talking about him specifically, I think the best players in the world, the day the season ends, they already know what they're doing in the offseason. That they have it mapped out because there's little things which they weren't able to do, like get faster necessarily. And they already know the day that season ends, they're they're working towards getting better for the next. And you don't need to tell them that they're away. I need to get bigger, faster, quicker. That's my off-season. Can't wait, excited.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

And if they don't see that, you're right, Benny. That that's a that is a red flag because you can explain the expectation all you like, but if if they don't see it, they won't be able to own it. And we've all we've all played and coached freaks that that you know don't think that too much about it and don't worry too much about the finite detail because they've got a very, very specific athletic profile mostly that allow them to do things on the footy field that you or I could never do. But but most nine out of ten guys, if they can't make that connection to their development, how can they be better? How do they need to evolve their game, then, then it's definitely a red flag.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

I think the the Richie McCaw example is a brilliant one. I I was in the generation, oh, what a generation to be an open-side flanker is to be stuck behind a guy like that who played 147 games for the All Blacks and never got injured. Well, he did get injured a lot, but he worked out deliberately how to get through those injuries. But I think he is the example because he was uh a freak of a player, of course. But being like playing against him a lot, you just saw him evolve the whole time. Every season, there was a new bit to his game. He was deliberate, he was dedicated, he was focused, and he took action the whole time. It was it was a calculated thing. I in his autobiography, he talks about writing the checklist of where he needed to get to in each season before he even made it, and there was heaps of them. And you're just thinking, that's what as coaches, we need to drive and promote and celebrate those sort of attitudes in our players because that's what makes it like, yes, he was a good player, but he was a good player because of all those things. If he just turned up at the first 15 at Otago Boys when he made it and just said, sweet, I can just sit back now because I've made this, not a chance he would have even been a professional player. But he had that inner drive, that awareness, that focus, all those things which are values that we as coaches need to be really celebrating in individuals and highlighting them so other people can see it, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:34

And that that that is massive in relation to those environments though, Benny. Like that, that filtered through the Crusaders, that filtered through the A B's, that, you know, and you know, the the the diligence of a Gregan and the work ethic of a of a Jamie Heeslip and the you know the guys like Tom Young's and Ben Young's in the Tigers environment, you know, that that has a huge impact on on the people in the environment seeing those behaviors, having those conversations with those those leaders around how they go about their business. And and there is a huge, really good example of that would be Adam Ashley Cooper in the in the Brumbries environment, who came into the environment as a 19-year-old kid and was a was a phenomenal athlete, incredibly tough. But the the lessons that he learnt in and around being a better player, the diligence, the professionalism, what is required to win things, you can't underestimate the power that that has trickling through the environment.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yeah, mate, it's it's massive, mate. It's a it's a really big one. And what happens once you get a generation doing it and they feed it to the next, it becomes this that's the sort of conveyor about culture you want. You want the values or the individual values which are coming through to be the to be the thing, the legacy you're leaving behind, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:01

And that becomes very, very easy from a recruitment perspective. If if you are fortunate enough to be in one of those really high-performing environments, the kids jumping over themselves to be a part of it. And that's that's where you really um that's where it becomes significantly easier because you you we we all know those environments. It doesn't matter what sport it is, you you you can tell that those environments are gonna get the best out of individuals. So, so you know, whether it be agents, whether it be parents, whether it be the athletes themselves, you know, you want to be a part of that because you're gonna get exposed to those really important high-performing behaviors every single day.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

So it's it's a it's a huge advantage. Think I'll go one step further, Maddie, and just say that like it's probably not just the high performing units as well. I'll I'll really go diverse and I'll go like, let's take the example of a family unit. Now, we don't want our kids as parents. We don't want our kids just going through the motions, just doing whatever mum and dad says and say, only doing something when asked, like only doing the dishes when I specifically say, do the dishes. We want the kids to be aware enough of themselves. And we might have to guide that as parents. We might have to say, hey, look, who do you think's gonna have to clean up those dishes when when we go? Is that what we do as a family? Is that gonna get you better? What happens when you move out of home and you have to do this yourself? And you highlight these reasons why to try to get the values in. So then as it goes, they're not just waiting for you to ask, they actually do the dishes automatically. They just do those little things. Just like in a rugby environment, we want players to actually know what they have to do to get better and go do them. Just like we want our kids to know that that's a thing they have to do for themselves and the family. So they just go and do it.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Correct. That that's that and that that becomes second nature because that's that's how we operate. That's that's what is important to us. If I do it, it means someone else doesn't have to do it. And it's it's no different on the no different on the footy field. It's a great, great analogy, Benny coaching and and parenting. It it's it's one in the same, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Well, I just think on that habits, mate, like someone told me the other day that habits are hard to break, whether they're good or bad.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

So you might as well get some really good ones, which are then hard to break. And and the reference was going to the gym. Uh, a buddy of mine was just saying, I've got into this habit of going to the gym now. I I'd hate missing the gym. And you just go, man, that's cool, that's a cool example. And and in our teams, right? Any sort of teams, is build great habits so then the players have that for their whole career, whether you're the coach or otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Now, Maddie, we have got to that time where the last 20 minutes, mate, we've just it's it's been flown by, mate. So the last question that we ask on the show is this one. What is one belief that you hold about coaching or culture that you believe in that you reckon other coaches or your contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_02 55:00

I I don't know. I don't know if they would disagree with it. I mean, and we and we talked about it briefly, is is the robustness, Benny, around around, you know, the delivery of important messages. I think as we as we said at the start, you you've got to you've got to wrap it around a connection with the players, you've got to wrap it around the motives, you've got to wrap it around a lack of ego. And you've got to you've got to shape it around around team first and and what those standards are. But but you you've got to have real robust, honest conversations um in environments, I think, if if you're going to move forward. I think I think that's that's the key bit. And I would be critical in some of those environments that I was a part of. There's there's coaches and and staff in those environments that aren't as honest and robust as they should be. It's it's really confusing and misleading for players. It's it's a pretty cutthroat uh place, professional sport. So you the last thing you want to be doing is going down a rabbit hole that isn't actually going to help you be a better person, better player. And unfortunately, if if you're not having that robust direct conversation around what has to happen, then that's where ambiguity comes in. There's a level of grayness, there's a level of confusion, which is all counterproductive to being in the moment and performing when it really, really matters.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Maddie O'Connor. What a pleasure to have you on the Coach and Culture podcast, my friend. If I may, just to wrap this up, I'd like to give my three takeaways that I've got out of the show today, if you don't mind. Number one is your opening statement around the social capital context and this this phrase, build your social capital. If you've built social rapport, the connection, through a team-first set of ethics, it does two things. It one, it commits the group way better to the cause and to you. And two, it gives you leeway to have what you talked about here, this robust discussions and to be direct and to speak openly and candidly because you've built the social connection, that social capital which allows you to do it. And I think it's a great one to really highlight for coaches that that's as building the social capital is as important as coaching the technique and the tactics. Number two.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

As I'll just interrupt, Benny, I suppose what I didn't say is it it gives them a safe place if that exists. So that robustness in exist in that level of safety is probably what I didn't articulate well enough.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

I love it, mate. I love it. Well, we'll keep going. Number two for me, which stood out, was this concept of interact with your leaders. And it's a really good one because sometimes we as coaches feel like we always have to educate, but sometimes, with particularly in leader-rich environments, just the interacting with leaders, being honest and real and acting with integrity around them builds that social capital. And it's as simple as just an interaction with them. You do that, they commit, they assist, they drive, and they help improve your environment. So just never forgetting that an interaction is a massive thing you can do for your leaders. And number three is this concept of owning your own development. We talked about this amateur mindset where in the olden days you had to be your own coach. You had to do it yourself because there wasn't this abundance of coaches giving you the vice and effectively spoon feeding you. And as a result, you often became different, unique, and you found your way. And we gotta understand that we don't want our players to think they're just on a conveyor belt and they're just turning up and going through the motions because they think it's gonna work. That's not how it is. We want our players to be the driver of their own development. And they need to be aware enough and they need to take feedback with a grain of salt and just understand themselves. And the more we as coaches can help drive that value and that mindset in players, the better they're gonna be as players, as people, as teammates, as husbands, wives, friends, family, all of that stuff. Maddie O'Connor, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Thanks, Ben.