Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Gordon Tietjens: I Coach Intensity Before Tactics
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What if the hardest session you’ve ever done became the moment your team truly bonded? We sit down with Sir Gordon Tietjens, the architect of All Blacks Sevens dominance, to unpack a culture built on honesty, humility, discipline, and relentless work—and why those values still win when talent alone can’t.
Tietjens takes us inside his selection philosophy, revealing why character outruns hype in a sport decided by inches. He breaks down his traffic‑light model—greens who self‑drive, yellows who drift, reds who divide—and shows how clear standards, from nutrition to conditioning tests, create trust that sticks. With vivid stories about Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen, and captain Eric Rush, we see how leadership from the front and non‑negotiables on fitness forged teams that treated every match like a final and delivered when it mattered most.
We also explore how to sell hard work to young athletes and their families, why care and demand must live together, and how rituals like haka and tournament simulations turn effort into identity. Tietjens contrasts the old school with today’s GPS‑driven limits and player leadership groups, offering a pragmatic path: choose athletes who will work, explain the why, and protect standards that protect performance. His experience shaping China’s high‑performance sevens program adds a global lens on buy‑in, recovery, and sustaining edge without burnout.
Expect a blueprint for coaches and leaders who want consistency over noise: set real standards, select for character, build trust with your captain, and let the jersey mean something. If this conversation hits home, follow the show, share it with a coach who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.
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Welcome And Tietjens’ Legacy
SPEAKER_00I smashed my players of training. Like my trainings were were harder than any game they'd ever played. The games were easy. They they became mentally tough, resilient, and they were tough nuts. They set protocols, if you like, or standards, which uh which were, I suppose, they're non-negotiable. I wanted tough nuts that were mentally and physically really tough. And that was a big key for us. Vajona used to always love coming back into the Sevens team. He loved the culture, he loved the hard work. If I was coached in the All Black Sevens team now, I'd probably be up for the buzz this shit.
Defining Culture And Core Values
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Gordon Titchens. Now, Gordon is the king of Sevens Rugby, one of the sport's founding fathers, really. 22 years with the All Black Sevens, winning pretty much everything and coaching icons like Christian Cullen and Joan Olomo in a golden era for all black rugby. Gordon has been a driving force for the global rises of sevens to become the popular Olympic sport it is today. He has also coached the Samoan Sevens and the Bay of Plenty team in the 15s format of the game in his home region. He is an IRB Hall of Fame member and has received a New Zealand Order of the Merit for services to the sport. Sir Gordon Titchens, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast. Cheers, Peter. Thanks very much. Great to have you. We'll kick off with the first question, which is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00It's an important big word, isn't it, really? And um I always remember when I took over the team and announced as a seven's coach in 1994, and the very first thing I do, I needed to create a culture. And based, and I base that culture on traditional values: honesty, respect, humility, discipline, leadership. And because what are the qualities that that create that culture? And I've always been culture, you need team players. To have the culture that you want, you need team players. Together, everyone achieves more. I've always been for that. Another quality is unity and unity as family. And that also defines culture. And I say that because I I, yeah, as a coach, I smashed my players at training. I worked particularly hard. My trainings were were harder than any game they'd ever played. The games were easy. But believe it or not, the harder you work, the more that unifies the players. They become very, very close. And the third one is passion, being passionate for whom you represent and what the jersey really means to you. And in the All Bakes Heavens and Bottom of that jersey was everything to make that team. And yeah, work tremendously hard to get in that side and be selected. And the last, the last quality, too, is around team discipline. And I say that in a sense that I broke it into two areas, one around nutrition. I saw the value of nutrition, certainly, and I I would never compromise as a coach what that nutrition was and what you should and shouldn't be eating. And also the other side of that, you needed to be as an athlete, you needed to be self-motivated. You need to be an athlete that could work unsupervised and work particularly hard. So if you look at all those qualities, the team, you know, the passion, the unity, and the and the discipline, if you put all those together, it creates a culture, in my view, which is second to none. And a culture, certainly, in the all-black sevens environment, that you have to have within your team. And we had a family culture. I remember Jonah used to always love coming back into the Sevens team. He was only in it for three years, 94, 95, and 96. But he loved the culture. He loved the hard work. He always wanted to do extras. He was always a little bit behind in terms of the levels that he needed to be at. But he worked tremendously hard. He always looked for extras. He'd be going after training to do some extras on the rowing machine, et cetera. You know, because that defined us at that time was um we were a team full of hard workers, guys that were prepared to do everything to win to Jersey.
SPEAKER_01I love that phrase, mate. The harder you work, the closer you become. Is that was it?
Training Harder Than Games
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was, mate. We I mean the guys afterwards, they dread some of the trainings. And they were because you know, yeah, yeah, you're attacking them physically, but it was the mental side. You know, it built them mentally. They they became mentally tough, resilient, and they were tough nuts. I mean, you know, when the sevens team in terms of selection, you know, I'm I'm a coach that selects on on character because if you find someone with the character, they're very, very coachable. And that to me is the real key. Oh, you know, I I won tournaments around the world then, not with the best players, because I couldn't have the best players. You know, from All Blacks to the New Zealand Māoris to Super Rugby to the New Zealand Colts. I had to go outside of all of those teams to find my players. So you go and find a player like Craig DeGaudie, who's Craig DeGaudie from the West Coast? But he was a guy that rolled his sleeves up, that emptied the tank for you, that got out and had the character and would sweat everything to wear that jersey. And that's the type of players that I'd go out on fire. And you had to. Because team selection around the sevens and conditioning, I wanted toughness that were mentally and physically really tough. And that was a big key for us.
SPEAKER_01Well, when you're talking about that character, what specifically are you looking for? And can you seek himself?
SPEAKER_00Something that you when you interview someone for a position, if someone's important for a role, someone's coming into your environment, you can sense very, very quickly in the first 15 minutes of an interview whether the player's got what you want. He's the right guy. He's the player that's gonna roll your sleeves up.
SPEAKER_01What sort of what sort of stuff is he saying?
SPEAKER_00Or she's saying, right? Yeah, it's a it's a it's a good question. You just get you get trust in what he's saying. You've done your homework, mind you. You've done your homework on that particular individual, that athlete, long before you're even sitting in front of you. You know, you've gone out and you've talked to people about it. Has he got the work ethic that you need? Has he got the character? The character is someone that's down to earth. Someone that's gonna get out and prepare to do everything to to be selected in that team to travel to wherever.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and that, and that becomes quite obvious when you're when you're having a 15-minute chat to someone if they're a genuine down-to-earth person or not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, having the hunger, you know, and and it is like um I would always look at someone like Dave Rennie as an example. I looked at the players that he used to select. He used to pick players that just rolled their sleeves up. He won two super rugby titles with players that we hadn't even heard of. He would beat the fancy Crusaders, you know? And you get to under you get an understanding then. I remember he said to me one day, he said, you know, I'm gonna battle to select Liam Messon. This is when I coached the Allback Seventh stand. You know, as good as he is, but he changed Liam's game, his whole game, in the Chiefs. And Liam, all of a sudden, rather than being just a board player, he was in there cleaning out rocks. He changed his whole game to a sense that then Liam went on and became a very, very good all back as well. You know, and because he he was pretty he was a guy that selected players that purely that were prepared to do the hard yards. And I had a similar philosophy in uh in the sevens environment, mate. I went out to find players, players that people had never heard of, but they were prepared to work incredibly hard just to make that team, you know, and they were the guys that won me tournaments. Honestly, as I said before, I won tournaments not with the best players, but I had the best teams. And I and an important aspect of that was having a leader that was prepared to lead. Also from the front. Now I had someone like Eric Rush for 13 years. You know, when you've got a guy like Eric Rush is still at 39 years of age, still playing a new black seven stand, that was quite a credible. And still hitting the 13s, 14s on a big test. You know, and uh, but he bought into what I wanted as a coach. What I wasn't prepared to compromise over around nutrition, around food, around work ethic, you know, and training. And and I wouldn't compromise fitness levels. That was another thing. You know, I wasn't prepared to select players that they weren't prepared to do the work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you you certainly got a reputation for that. Everyone knew going into the Sevens camps, that's what you were signing up for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah, I just I just wouldn't compromise. I I wanted to reward players that were prepared to work out.
SPEAKER_01How did you get guys that intrinsically might not have been that motivated to actually get motivated? Was it the power of the group or was it the power of you?
Selecting For Character Over Talent
SPEAKER_00It's funny because I had uh in one of our training camps, you know, you get these new youngsters that come into your training camps. And on a Saturday night after our first day of training, I had a parent turn up at uh to come to pick up his son. And I said, I it was Anthony Tootabaki's dad. He wanted to go home. It wasn't him, you know. He was new, he was young, he was only 18 or 19, he came into the environment, and he was an incredibly talented player. But he'd never been pushed, like ever been pushed in one of our camps. And because um I explained and sat down with his dad and and I said, listen, I I said, um, your son has got all the talent in the world. The worst thing he could do is to leave this camera. And I convinced him to stay, and he went on to play a number of games, went on to win a Commonwealth Games Gold Medal in in Manchester as well, you know, in 2002. You know, but but he also he would acknowledge that he became a better rugby player because of that. He got to levels that he probably never believed he could ever get to. You know, and they were, they were incredibly for Anthony Toodovaki to had a 13, 14 and a beat test was unheard of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, mate, I actually coached him in Japan like a long time afterwards, and his attitude to work hard was phenomenal. So you certainly put something in him early, which he had a phenomenal career around the world, and now is back coaching uh a policeman, I believe, in New Zealand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, you you you've got to sell it to them in some ways, but they see the benefits. That training, they might have been hating it, and you know, they're dreading it, and they get through the training and in the showers, the music's on, and uh happy because I've done a I've done some hard work, you know, and it's uh and that was one of the real keys, the way that it it basically brought the players into that, as I said before, that that family atmosphere. We're there for each other, we're gonna play for each other, we're gonna work for each other. And when you when you're up on a whether you're being receiving an award, whether that might be a trophy at the end of a tournament, you know, it's just not on that particular day. It's all the work that's done beforehand when you reflect back, you know, pre-season, during the season, because all our hard yards were done before we left the country. Everything when we got into whatever country we were going to was all about technical and tactical. It was quite easy, you know, because I wanted them prime for the tournament. But in New Zealand, we'd replicate tournaments and we'd train back to back. If it was a three-day tournament, we hit ourselves hard for three days. If it was a two-day tournament, we hit ourselves hard for two days. You just didn't know what was coming. But um, what I did, you know, so um, but I mean that, and that to me was the was the secret and the key then.
SPEAKER_01Did you when you talk about selling this concept, like I assume that's a big part of it because if you don't sell it, it could, it could obviously go poisonous, right? Like, if you're driving people this hard. So, how did you sell the need to do this?
SPEAKER_00Well, I heard about was how hard players players trained, players vomiting at training and stuff like that. Some of it was blown out of proportion. But honestly, when they got an understanding, it was pretty hard for a 15 to side player to immediately get seven's condition. That takes a while. Uh, the load is incredible. So, therefore, I was mindful around that as well. So, I would put that responsibility with my trainer to slowly get him up to the levels that he needs to get to. Because he won't be any good if he doesn't get to those levels. And and it was hard work. But once they got there, all of a sudden they've got this work ethic. You know, they, you know, it's easy. Whether they're doing A 6040s or whether they're doing uh repeated speed, you know, it became easy. And going into the 15th scale, it was a dream.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. When the players, I certainly remember when players came back into the super squads, they were phenomenal because they were so fit.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I suppose the best thing to sell it if you looked at players, look at the players, I think it was about 46 players played to my seventh team to go on to become 43 store rags. And look at the Jonas, look at the Christian Cullins, the Joe Ricca Focus, you know, the the Bruce Rehanners. You know, there's some wonderful players that have come through the Seventh Yeah, you know, and look at a young guy like um balance royale, a youngster who was 17, played against us in a Fijian invitational, New Zealand invitational Fijians, based in Auckland, played us before we went away on a tour, and uh, and this guy just tore us apart. And he was 17. Who is this guy? He's Emotional Balance Royale. Well, he went on to win three Commonwealth Game gold medals, and he was the Waysani Serevi of New Zealand Sevens, incredible player, you know, and um and and straight away with with Emocio, it was everything to him. It was his family, because in Fiji, because that's their life, Sevens rugby, and here he is playing for the All Black Sevens fan. But he was a tremendous player, and the rewards he got, he had never been ever as fit in his life. I remember it was the Sacred Heart school. I rang the sports director at Sacred Heart College as the Alba Sevens coach and said, listen, you've got a youngster there I'd like to have a look at. I'd like you to test him today for me, please. Could you put him through a big test? Because I'm seriously looking at him while he's still at school.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, missing, same thing. Still in school, 17. Same thing, same thing applied. Uh Craig knew me, another one still at school. And I wanted some true figures and where they were prepared to how they were prepared to work. You know, and I got the figures back, and sure enough, and they all went on to come and make the All Black Sevens there.
Leadership And Non‑Negotiable Standards
SPEAKER_01So there's something pretty powerful about that that physical hard work equating to good character and longevity in the game.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there were two players in my team that that I had in as a coach, um, one of them was um Rico Yoani, and one was Akira Yoani, two brothers that got selected on all black sevens team. And I was thinking, how am I gonna get the best out of these two particular players? Both talented, very talented athletes. Rico was 17, Akira was 19. So we'd met their mum and dad at the Olympic Cafe in Auckland. And I spent probably an hour and a half with them learning about their two boys. All the good things that they excel at, but also the areas where they needed work on. And you've got two athletes that were chalking cheese. I mean, Rico used to have to get a carry out of bed just to go to training, you know? And but believe it or not, it was incredible how they both, as brothers, that that hour and a half I spent with their mum and dad was building trust. They trusted me as a as a coach, that their boys would be looked after traveling around the world. And those kids would do anything for you. And that was a real key, was building trust with the people that matter in these kids' lives. We were so young. That was a real key for me, and they knew that. They knew I had this meeting with them, you know, and they were prepared to work hard. I remember ringing Sandra, uh Akira's lum one day and said, Sandra, I'm ringing you about Akira. And the first thing uh Sandra said, what is he, what's he done now? But I was actually ringing her to say that he, you know, he's um he's trading the house down. He's incredible at the moment. And uh, and that was one of the real keys, is that that point of communication you need as a coach. And also, and how can they get the best out of some of the players? And some of these specific auto players, it's especially. You know, meet their families and build that trust. And that that to me was one of the real keys, and and that I that I thought anyway at that particular time that I did well.
SPEAKER_01Is that what you have to do, Gordon? Because you obviously you're known for your high standards and you push people really hard, but do you actually have that have to have the other side as well, that showing real care to be able to push people hard?
SPEAKER_00That's probably their biggest quality being about it's about you care about the people that you're working with. You care about the athletes. That caring aspect is everything. You know, like we all have challenges and battles in our lives, that but that caring aspect, not only in sport and business, is so, so important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, is it yeah. It it it's it's massive, isn't it? Because it's kind of that understanding of if you can understand why someone's pushing and that they care about you while they're doing it, then you're all in, aren't you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, I'll I'll I'll let you into something. When I was when I was coaching, I I used a type of my analogy when I was assessing players. And I obviously I wanted to coach greens. That was the real key for me, coaching greens. And there's lots of yellows out there, and you don't only reds, right? So when I was coaching New Week Sevens team, I had 80% greens. Well, what does green mean? Green is all about intent. Green is about work unsupervised, train the house down. Just to ideal athlete. Don't even have to motivate them. You know they're gonna go out and eat you the tank for you. Okay, yellows, what is a yellow? The yellow's got all the talent in the world, but they just do enough. So you never know what you're gonna get out of a yellow. They're a minefield de coach. They're a minefield decades. And then you've got reds. Well, reds create division within your team, but they just won't front up or they don't turn up. And they um and of course, um if they take all our time as coaches, if you've got to read in your team. They do. And because they, as I said, they create division, and that's then you're not gonna ever have the the culture that you so desire within your group of or within your team. The key around that is um when I was coaching your blacks I had 80% green, but I was still working with 20% yellows, but the key is I had no reds. And the real, if you have to meet if you mention someone's name, if I said to you Richie McCoy, you straight away you think green. Honey McWilliams, the most professional athlete at ever coach is green. But the moment you have to think what someone is, they're yellow. So if you go, uh uh I said A.
SPEAKER_03You think green.
Motivating Youth And Selling The Why
SPEAKER_00Or I said Julian Severe, I could probably go yellow, but it could be a green. So my job was to turn the Those yellows and the greens. You know, and and because I worked with all these athletes, and and that was the real key is is um the and it's funny enough, the yellows know who they are. And because coaching, if you've got more yellows in your team than greens, your performances are inconsistent. You're all over the show. But the key with my team having 80%, your consistency rate was right up there. That's why we had a great success rate winning tournaments and so. You know, and it's funny, and as I said, the yellows know who they are. So some yellows, can they turn into greens? Sure they can. And you've got to be open with them as a coach, and they know whether a yellow. And because I'll tell you, they are a minefield to coach a yellow, because you never know what you're gonna get out of a yellow. He might give you the performance of a green one day, outstanding. But then the time when you really need them, you don't turn up.
SPEAKER_01What are you so are you saying your focus is mainly the yellows? But like they're the guys who go. No, it's good.
SPEAKER_00No, having greens, mate. My my goal was obviously to have all greens within my site. But you're always gonna be working with yellows, particularly youngsters coming into your environment. They come in with all the skill sets, all, because they had a lot of schools in New Zealand, a lot of talented athletes, they're gonna make the tens regardless, because they've got all the skill sets, but they've never pushed themselves hard. And in the in the settings environment, the conditioning levels you need to get to are massive. So I can't afford to carry anyone that's not prepared to be a brand.
SPEAKER_01Well, was the physical side that you pushed them on your methodology from getting yellows to greens? That was the that was the vehicle, like the actual working hard aspect?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, working hard, yeah, working hard. You get to I use an example, right? And um, if we had 20 athletes been and we were going to the gymnasium tomorrow morning, we've got a seven o'clock in the morning workout. So I got my 20 athletes and we all went down to the gym. And there's 20 treadmills, there's 20 rowing machines, and there's 20 bikes. I could walk in blindfolded into that gymnasium and tell you exactly what athlete would be online. I could tell you right now, the guys that won me tournaments will be on the rowing machines and the treadmills. The cruisers, the yellows, will be on the bikes. And it's not to say you can't work harder on a bike, because you can. But it was the easiest option and the best option. Well, that's a good test. Do you tell you? And I wouldn't be wrong, mate. I could walk in, I'd be blown away if I saw one of my yellows on the rower, pounding on the rower, honestly. Yeah. And I'd I'd say, mate, I'm he's getting to where I need him to get to. You know?
SPEAKER_01That is an awesome test. I'd imagine. Did you almost did you up?
SPEAKER_00Because mate, I know. I could tell you right, I could tell you, I'd go through my whole team. I know the Eric Rushes and all these guys will be on the tread or the rower. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. I mean, yeah, but also knew the guys that would be on the bikes.
SPEAKER_01What what did you do with the Reds?
SPEAKER_00Did you just remove I I I I wouldn't want to mention those, but I did have what you've got to manage the Reds because they take all your time, right? In the in the in the sport of cricket, I use the sport of cricket. Jesse Ryder was probably a red. And yes, he had all the talent in the world. All the talent in the world, mate. You know? And um, so trouble followed him because that's what happens. But can you turn a red and become a yellow to become a green, mate? You're doing an awesome job, and you're an unbelievable coach if you can. And it's not saying you can't. That's never such a word. But honestly, I believe, and you will at odd times, you know, you will have a red, but they they create division, they take all your time, and you have to manage them out. This is not only in sport, this is in business as well. Because they're infectious. Because when you've got good, when you've got reds in your team, you lose good staff. Oh, why is that? Because in business, if you've got a red, you're operating with red, you're not going to ever have that satisfactory culture that you want within your team. And people leave, you lose good people because of the unhappiness and the the environment's toxic because of your caring reds. I spoke at a conference once, and uh, and a big manager came out to me and he said, No wonder we're gone now, because I've got reads working for me. When I talked about the analogy. And you do, you lose good people. So you have to manage them out. You've got to, because they take all our time. And this is in sport as well. So, and that'd be the odd red, honestly. You know, that and because you know, when I used that philosophy before around that analogy before about the um the bikes and the rowing machines and the treadmills, well, the red wouldn't have turned out. At least the yellows are good on the bikes, you know. So but you know, it's uh it's a pretty good analogy, but honestly, reds, you know, I mean, you never get a red in your bikes. In your view, remember these are in your view or my view, you know, ISS, and you're not far off, you know, like when I look at it, and like I said before, like Sonny Ba Williams was a green class in everything that he did as a as a as an athlete. Richard McCaw, no question. You know, all those guys, all those leaders in our environment in my seventh Tams, the Ear of Rushes, the Dallas Seymours, the you know, um DJ Forbes, the tough II star, all these guys were great. No Greens, man, they're your leaders, they're the guys. Carl Tanano is another one. He was a great leader. You know, yeah, but they were gregs. And you need they need to be greens.
SPEAKER_01I think it's a really lovely little concept for all coaches, Gordon, around that when you ask, and if there's a pause, they're yellow. And I think it's a good recruitment tool as well. When you're ringing a coach, if you're looking for a player and you say, What's he like as a person? And if they go, oh, fantastic, yeah, you straighten the green pile. But if there's a pause, you can almost say, say no more.
Turning Yellows Into Greens
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I get it. Correct. It's like when you hesitate to buy a property, isn't it? If you hear it, you don't buy it. Yeah, that's right. But if you want to jump in, you you buy it. And it's the same thing, you know, the moment you've got to think, oh, he's uh he's a yellow. If he's automatic, he's either going to be a green or red. Because if it always is red, you say red straight away anyway.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But honestly, it's a really, in my view, it's a quite a good analogy in which to how you assess your the individuals within your team.
SPEAKER_01Love him, mate. Now, when you're talking, you you you sort of said that your party omission is to change oranges and or yellows into greens, but mate, how many players have have shaped you as a coach? Like have you had guys that you that you could care to mention that go, they have actually shaped you, and what do they what do they teach you as a coach?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Rick Rush, in my view, shaped me as a coach in a lot of ways about building relationships with your your team leader, in which I felt um he was someone that believed in what I and what I believed that was gonna be successful. He he shaped me in a lot of ways because he uh the trust factor was there because we both we built a fantastic relationship. And he was very, very honest, brutally honest around assessments because he'd also come into my selection meetings as well when we talked about selection and whatever as well. Oh, you actually he actually was almost like a fourth coach in a lot of ways. In a lot of ways, yeah. Oh, right. Okay, yeah. Yeah, he was, yeah, he was because I mean 13 years is when I first went in there, I was blown away. Here I am in my first year in '94, coaching here at Russian Dallas Seymour. They were real stars in their own right then, you know, coming through the the Sevens team. Russian went on to stay 13 years with me. Credible, but we had a great, a great, great relationship, a coach player relationship. He knew that I never compromised as a coach. He knew, you know, he still worked his butt off to still be in that team to prove that as old as he was, he deserved to be in the team. And that's why he was good. Christian Cullen probably shaped me in Christian and Jonah. In some ways, they probably um as as a as a coach, they they were incredible athletes. People quite often asked me who are the two best sevens players you've ever coached. And and in terms of what they achieved in the Sevens field, I don't think Jonah ever lost in the New York Sevens jersey. They won three Hong Kongs, 94, 95, and 96, won a World Cup and a and a couple of games in in 98 at Kuala Lumpur. And Kelly, he turned up in 95, played the first game for me in um in Hong Kong uh against Chinese Taipei, scored the very first try, and that was his last game for the for the tournament. And then the next year in '96, he was a star and he scored 18 tries and just an incredible athlete. And then we went on to see what he also achieved in the All Blacks, and as uh probably the best ever fullback we've ever had.
SPEAKER_01I I I I love that, mate. Did did your coaching evolve through these guys, like from where it started to what have you learned along the way with some of these guys?
Stories Of Jonah And Cullen
SPEAKER_00Well I I f I felt working with well, yeah. I mean, I didn't know Christian was going to be as good as what he was when he came in, and he was superbly talented, you know. And because I just saw this guy playing for Menor 2 at the at the sevens in Palmerston North, and who's this guy? And he comes into camp, and you know, and every and and Jonah was likewise. Jonah was 18 playing for counties at that time, even though he had a background coming through the schools, you know, as a number eight, but he ended up playing on the wing for us. And then he obviously went out to the wing for the All Blacks as well. But they probably shaped me as a people got because our sevens team was very, very successful in those days. '94 and I we won the three Hong Kongs in our first year, and that was the only tournament there used to be, effectively, I suppose, that had any mana or, you know, which was a high-profile tournament. Um, so we so from that, I suppose, with the success we had with these guys that were just sort of superstars in their own rights coming through, they probably, I I suppose they got a lot of recognition because of that. Right, talent spotted them, but in some ways they've probably been spotted at Ace groups coming through in that as well. But because they're on the world stage and and all of a sudden they became superstars. And uh, you know, and I obviously someone like um Jonah, of course, was just just what he could do on the rugby field. I remember even now, you know, I remember in the World Cup, first ever World Cup that we won in um, I think it was in 2001, I think, or 2000 or something in in South America. And we lost Rushi. We lost Eric Rush as our um as our leader broke his leg playing England in a quarter or semi-final. We went on to play Argentina in the semi the next day, and we'd lost Rushi, and Rushi had to go back to New Zealand. Jonah single-handedly, in my view, basically won us that that World Cup in the final against Australia. Just ran over Brendan Williams like you would never just like used to see Steve Kat run over by Jonah. Well, he did this Brendan to this youngster Brendan Williams for Australia. You know, there are memories that you never forget, you know, and and it was incredible. Because in those days, Ben, when when any player left your team and this Jonah, Rushi was having to go back to New Zealand to have an urgent operation, a Middlemore hospital in Auckland on his leg. Um a player has to perform a huckle on his own. He probably did it through teams that you were in when they left. Yeah, yeah. To get on the taxi to go to the airport. And always remember we're all waiting in the lounge, and Rushi comes into the lounge in the reception area of our hotel in South America in a wheelchair. And I thought, how's he gonna perform his haka, you know? And then just out of out of none, out of nowhere, mate, Jonah just started this haka. It was one of the most emotional hackers, serring motivational haka I've ever seen. That was my tank talk for our game against Argentina two and a half hours later. You know, it was incredible. And that was the and that was the beauty, and uh that was our culture, that was who we were. The guys would just bleed for each other in our sevens environment. Not just because with a New Zealand team, the entire squad of 20, I was allowed to contact 20 there. Even if they were there, that was just how we were, you know? And this is Jonah, the superstar, just led it and made it incredible in what he did. And then when to go out and perform like he did was even just uh mind-boggling, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, yeah, what a what a fantastic guy he was, right? Just on so many ways.
SPEAKER_00And who knew, you know, Jonah obviously has some health issues, even when he was in the 17, but he didn't come and say, Can I have today off training? Because I'm not feeling as well or game got the energy levels. He just did it. You know, he was just just and he wanted extras after trading, he'd come up. He'd be at the white Puna in Auckland, and he'd come up and say, Can we do some extras? So early after the chairman, he'd get on the rower, and I just signalise it while he did some extras.
SPEAKER_01How did you manage that condition? Did you know about it enough to manage it?
SPEAKER_00No, never knew at that time, no. Is that right? Never had any idea, no, no. But he would never tell anyone. Joni was someone that would give you the share off his back. I remember someone going up and saying, She, I lung was stereo, because he'd have these beautiful sort of stereos, you know. And he'd give him the give the guy who ever said, I love your stereo, give it to him, you know, mate. You know, you know, that was he's just a giving person and uh and a great, great athlete to be involved with.
SPEAKER_01Now, it's just a couple of phrases you've said a couple of times on this chat so far, Maz. You just said things like Eric Rush knew I wouldn't compromise as a coach. Have you had to compromise a few things as a coach?
SPEAKER_00I set protocols, if if you like, or standards in which I which were, I suppose, they were non-negotiable, I suppose, within our environment. And that was certainly around nutrition and getting to the levels of conditioning you needed to be at, otherwise I wouldn't select you. Probably something similar to the Nolan Taylor's been going through just recently as well in New Zealand. You know, with New Zealand Netball. Yeah. You know, like uh she sets standards, she's a pretty similar coach to what I was. And of course, um she will not select players if they don't meet the levels that they need to be at. And I was exactly the same. I could not select someone. And he had to be a hundred percent. Yeah, I was just that was just one of my non-negotiables and something that I never and of course uh that was what was really good about Rushi. You know, like I can't believe you're not gonna select them. So Rushi, he's not hitting the numbers, but he's done nothing when he's gone back. See, in between our tournaments, we were never centrally um located like they are now. Yes, right? They all live in Mount Montana. So we come in from wherever, in Vicar, wherever they live, they came in from wherever, and we'd assemble in the mount. Come into the mountain, we'd have a little light lunch, and then we often go to the action centre or whatever centre it is in in Taroma. And we start off with a, you know, straightaway speed test. Right, over over ten and over forty. Then we'd have a decrement phosphate test, which is 10 40 meters spints for 30-second recoveries, electronically tired individually, and then we go from that to the beak test, we do a beak test, and then we do a shuttle test, and then we go and drift go and train. And that was all in the in the one afternoon after that some of them had flown in. And because we were so conditioned to that, guys were prepared for that. Never very rarely lost a play in condition testing, ever. We just were so well conditioned, and guys had done the work back in their province before coming into camp. And that was the real key. And I wasn't prepared to compromise anything around that. The moment you compromise, you you display a weakness. Do you reckon? It doesn't, and it doesn't send a good message to the other players. So we set standards, minimum 13 big tests.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you have a hard standard like a number, like a standard.
SPEAKER_00If you're not making it, you can't you can't make the and you get the odd player that as soon as you hit City Month stop, you get the other player would go on to get his neck to to push out his best. Yeah. So yeah, but you know, some players are just quite contentious to do enough, knowing there's a a declement phosphate test or knowing there's something else afterwards and that.
SPEAKER_01Do you re do you reckon, Gordon, that um so we're talking a little time ago, do you reckon that the modern athlete is the same and would respond the same to the this manner of coaching? Or do you reckon it there needs to be an adjustment?
Rituals, Haka, And Team Identity
SPEAKER_00If I was coaching your back series team now, I'd probably be up before the players association. Yeah and I say it as a because because uh now you're playing leadership groups and you know you've got to sell it to them. But I've I've built my success around, you know, and it was proven that in the game of serens, conditioning is a massively important area that you need to excel at. And honestly, now why is Spain so good now? They're so fit, mate. You know, they've got teams now that thing is too much around God around science. You know, like once the players have done a certain amount of they get a GPS on them and they've done a certain number, then that's it. Cut. You know, like if I felt you're not fit enough, I should have the right to go and say that you need, you need to do, uh I go to an agency trainer and I want him to do train in the afternoons for the next two, because he needs to be at this level of fitness and he's not there yet, if he wants to be selected. I should have the right to do that. But now everything's guided by, you know, player wellness and basically player wealthy, I suppose. And um, as I said, I'd be out before the players association. Because some may refuse write the network, but they refuse to to be part of it.
SPEAKER_01It's a fascinating change, dude. Yeah. So are you saying you reckon your style just wouldn't fit in back then, wouldn't fit in today's athletic?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I think it a lot of it comes down to selection. When you select your athletes, you select players that are going to be prepared to work for you. In the Sims environment, I wouldn't select any guy that I felt and I didn't have the confidence in that he was an athlete that was prepared to work hard. Regardless of his skill sets. Honestly, because now you've got a different athlete. These days, you've got an athlete to say, why do we have to do that? You know? That's different, isn't it? It is so different. We're in the past, and for the Chinese woman, it was so good, and I enjoyed coaching them. Just the fact is they were we've we've people got to give us the credit that we've put a lot of thought into why we're having this certain sort of trainings, having this certain sort of intensity. You know, there's a reason behind it. There's a reason why I replicate we're gonna have two real tough days, because that's what it's gonna take to win the tournament in ten days' time. Because we're gonna have two tough days here. And I looked at our draw and our draw. Every tournament to me, to every game was a final, in my view. Every game was a final, and and we could never take anyone for granted. It was just the Sevens game as a fickle game on any given day, and any team can beat any team. So we had to get up, you know, for our first game against Chile, as if it was Fiji, as if it was uh one of the bigger names. And that's what we we crowned that into our players. So I never took any any team for granted. We we went out to smash them, you know, and that was just our attitude. And we had the guys to to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and uncomprom uncompromising touch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had to, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're talking about that Chinese, I think it's a it's really cool that you're the running high performance for China. When you're talking about that, what's what is your approach to them in particular in in building an environment and a culture around you know, an up-and-coming, hopefully a force in Sevens Rugby?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, um, it was a real an eye open for me when I first went over there. But what I once I got an understanding and I saw in China, I was really impressed with all the facilities they have, the grounds, the training facilities, the gyms, and even more so the athletes. And more so the athletes and their skill sets and how hard they're prepared to work. And it was incredible and great. As I said, probably one of the most enjoyable times of my coaching career was working with the Chinese woman because they work incredibly hard, no questions, and they'll keep working. I actually had to plead with the coaches over there to give them a day off, a couple of days off. What? Here I am working with the coaches, give them a couple of days because and and trying to to tell the coaches that a travel day is not a day off than when you're flying into another country. So one time I actually convinced them to give them three days, three days off. But within those three days, they still had a two-hour video session every day. So from a mental side of it, you know, but but you know, but they had they they'll because I'll you can run them into the ground, and I even understood that. Because these girls worked tremendously hard, but they needed to also understand the body will break. You know, I even understand that.
SPEAKER_01You know? Why do you think the ladies there, the Chinese woman, had that mentality? Any any background to that?
Conditioning Tests And Accountability
SPEAKER_00It's just the China mentality amongst all other athletes over on another field, over from us, when I was over in China. There was a there was a um a football team training. And there were some goalies that were having goalkeeping practice. And if you've seen them having to get up and dive and get up and dive, they had one guy just hammering kicks at this guy. Like, and it was just about like doing down-ups. He's having to stop about 20, 30 gold. Then the next guy was this to, and it was incredible. They work incredibly hard. Like, you know, it's just their their training ethos or their ethics is is incredible, mate. I think they're all like that. I was in the Olympic Training Center at Beijing as well. And you see the effort of some of the athletes, it's incredible in China.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's just their mindset. They're they're just that's how they work. They work particularly.
SPEAKER_01And did that resonate with your style naturally?
SPEAKER_00Of course, no question. I have no trouble whatsoever, but working with the Chinese girls' team. Even the men, the men are massively talented. There's just too much politics in in China, rugby, unfortunately. Whether provinces have the power over the athlete. So they can actually pull you away from playing for your country just to play for the province.
SPEAKER_01Do you think there's just on that print sort of concept that do you do you think a coach has a net like a type of team which suits them better? Whether your style suits some teams better than others? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Or the history or the culture of that place or that team.
SPEAKER_00They were a team that would I mean, they have trials after trials after trials to get the selection right, honestly. And and they also went through that that process of fitness and everything as well. I've got a full belief in their systems. I mean, I added a few things in there when I was there. Uh, and they really, they were really they wanted to make change in some certain areas, you know, which was fantastic. And uh, and I thought it was great. When I and when you saw the results delivering the the right results on the on the training park to win all the the challenger series tournaments and then go to the Olympics and then go to it's it's fantastic, you know, and they can only get better, but as I said, the sad thing is the politics gets involved over there around selection, which can weaken your team dramatically.
SPEAKER_01Well obviously the Chinese they won all the Challenger Series stuff undefeated. And and likewise with the All Blacks that you had, a lot of victories. Do you how do you get through the is there a complacency that that comes up in teams that you coach? And if so, like how do you get on top of that? That sort of concept.
SPEAKER_00We were as I said, the game of seven is very fickle, but we treated every game as a final. Every game was treated as a final, and you never look too far ahead, and that's exactly how you've got to look at it. It's no different to a tennis straw. What's in front of you? Hey, you just take what's in front of you. And you've got to, you've got to, they have the utmost respect for us. Remember that all those teams coming in to play us have nothing at all to lose. Nothing at all to lose. We're playing the all backs, you know? And it's so easy if you drop to their levels, or their so-called levels, so nothing changed for us. Our prep before the game. If we're playing 11 o'clock, we smashed ourselves at 8 o'clock. Nothing changed for us. Everything we apply ourselves exactly the same way if we're going into a final. Honestly, yeah, we worked incredibly hard, even though it was a less than 90, and we're expected to win. That's the danger when you're expected to win. You know? And so therefore, you want seven guys, seven grands that are up for it. And I'd like to think that a lot of our games were won on the first half. It's funny because with coaching now, a lot of it also, a coach is challenged around his replacements at certain times of the game. And if there's a big gap between the players on the bench and the terms of ability to the players that are actually on the starting in your starting team, I was very reluctant to make change unless the game was won, in my view. Or you didn't make much changes to your teams? Hardly ever. Unless if there was a if there were two players that were neck and neck, one was playing and one was on the bench, then I'd have no trouble making that change if I needed to. So you you had a bit of a policy. If the debt was too great between the players, I could not bring off a game breaker if the game was on a knife edge. And that's the real key now. You know, you see it now in some of the games, coaches feel they have to give players a run because getting the end of the game, the game's on a knife edge. Hey, that player could be so important to you. You know, there's no written rule, you have to play 'em. You know, and and in sevens, it's vital. You know, it's huge. And that you, you know, like um, it's just that was how I was as a coach. The game had to be won before I openly make changes. And particularly you get challenged if the gap is a great between the in terms of ability for the player that's on the bench to the player that you started. Though I do have a favorite saying in life, whoever plays will do the job. And that's the confidence we have to, as a coach, have to have in whoever comes off the bench. Hey, that's just part of it. Whoever plays will do the job. Whoever plays will do the job, yeah. Yeah. That that's you gotta.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a great confidence uh booster for players, right? Like to know that that's the that's what you think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mate, it is, yeah. Yeah, obviously you have comic, you've selected them for a reason, you know?
Modern Athlete And Player Power
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. You're still working with the the Chinese team. Have you how have you done this for so long? Like how have you maintained like for 22 years in in the All Blacks coaching that like how do you maintain that longevity in the game?
SPEAKER_00I think I was like the most enjoyment out of uh coaching is when you see players that actually you shape their career as a rugby player. You know, that's where they've started, and all of a sudden you've given them the confidence, you know. Especially when you've picked nobody players that no one's ever heard of, no one's ever known, and all of a sudden, all of a sudden you've shaped their career as a as a person, you know. They've got exposed on the on the national circuit of TV over the world. And to me, that that's everything to me. It was more than winning a tournament, was was saying you've actually been part of their their ride, if you like, to to where they're at now. You know, and you've built lifelong relationships. Even now, even now, I still hear from a few athletes and that, and you run into them and that. It's like they've never left. It's like you still, particularly when you have a reunion. And we had one before they went off to the Olympics in Paris or something like that. Or it's like all my old guys that paid for us for years or in one of the changing rooms reminiscing about what happened, you know, how many years ago and what we did and how we got smashed here. And players come up with things that I realize they hadn't done, but they'd been behind my back, you know. So but uh memories that you never forget, you know. And if I can give something into now, sometimes you'll be asking, I'd speak, present a jersey or something like that. And it's it's pretty special. He still sends the old goosebumps in when you go into a change room and you know, these guys are going out. I've on a couple of occasions, I'll present a jerseys to the Colonel Black Sevens team and and had a talk to the money recently. You know, it's uh it still gives you a little bit of a buzz being part of them and being there. Yeah, you do you miss it? Yeah, to an extent, but you can never go away from it, because it's always there for you and uh and you'll never lose it. And that's something that um you you can always reflect back on the friendships and and what I've got out of out of Stevens rugby, and it's been massive. It's been a massive part of my life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's awesome, mate. What uh what advice would you give a young coach who who wants to do well in rugby?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's that's a it's a really, really good question because uh I just believe in what you're doing, you know. I think I've always said never ever pretend to be someone that you're not. It's always about being you. You know, I I you're learning off little bits here of whoever, but it's about being you and coaching the way that you feel is the right way to coach. You know, you get a whole lot of guys that can come along and give you, what about this try, this, try this? You can take that on board, but it's you've got to be happy with the selection you've made, with the game plan you've put in place. You know, now you have lots of coaches which you can sit in meetings and you can discuss that. At my time, it was just me. But I had a great captain, you know, that I could work with. But I said, just believe in what you're doing and and you can walk away from that. Well, I gave it my best shot, and that's what we ask, you know? And it's like Roger Federer, right? Every time we went out in a tennis or a tennis court, he went out to give it his very, very best, right? And and uh I suppose a story that I I quite often talk about is in 2008 he played the greatest game of tennis ever um against Ruff and Nadal in the final of Wimbledon. And Wimbledon's a grand slam tournament, they all won a win. And why I use this story is because this is what I expect from my athletes. Now, Federal went on to lose that game in 2008. In the interview afterwards, he was shattered, visibly Terry on TV. He'd just been beaten in the tournament, he so much wanted to win, and yet he'd won Wimbledon about four or five times before that. Nadal are beaten Federer. I read an article which is about six or seven days after that, and it said everything. Nadell won the greatest game of tennis, but Federer gained in defeat. He showed us that losing, although painful, is not necessarily failure. How can it be when you've given it all you have? And that says it all, mate. You know, you can lose, you can lose, and it hurts. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's failure when you've given it all you have. And that to me was a was a real key, and I've always learnt from that. You know, we we got beaten for the very first time at the Cong Games in Glasgow against South Africa in the final for the gold medal. I went into the holding room afterwards, we got beaten uh full time. Holding room afterwards for the medal ceremony. It was like walking into a funeral parlour. My plans were shattered. Never been beaten at the COM Games, this is our fourth con games, got the silver medal. But in my view, they'd given 200%, they'd given it everything they had. And then I had to get them up. It was my job to get them up and be proud of getting up on that, you know, and getting a silver medal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_00And that was that to me, I've really learned from that, you know. It's about losing although it hurts. It doesn't necessarily mean it's failure. How can it be when you've given it all here?
Building China’s High‑Performance Culture
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that sentiment, man. I think all coaches should endeavour to to get that into their psyche. Now, Titch, the last question, it's got to that time scene, a wonderful conversation. Just w one more question for you, as the one that we we always finish on is do you have any beliefs about coaching and the culture of coaching that you reckon that you believe in, that you reckon your peers and contemporaries would disagree with?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I I saw that or I thought about it. It was a good question. It's a really good question. Well that they possibly not agree with me. Isn't what you're saying? That they would probably disagree with me. Yeah, well, I I just don't believe you can compromise on what you believe is right, whether that be a game plan, whether it be a route of selection or whatever. But you've got to do it. Look, you've got the role as the head coach, you have the final say. And I believe I'm I'm I'm certainly the belief I have is you've got to do it your way and and you make that for you and be confident with the decision you've made. You know, yeah, uh we yeah, we have coaching panels now, we have coaching teams and selection teams and all that sort of stuff. But I believe as a coach, particularly if you're the head coach, don't compromise what you believe is right.
SPEAKER_02Where do you think contemporaries would potentially disagree with that statement?
SPEAKER_00You're gonna get yeah, it's in today's world yeah it's yeah, I mean, I I yeah, I mean it's like it's like anything, you know, like it's funny, you can be the best salesperson in the world and know and know everything about the product, but the customer don't like you, he's not gonna buy it for you. Right? Yeah. You know, and you you can know nothing about a product, be an awesome person, and everyone will buy a for you. You know, and uh and what I look at in terms of coaching and you know, you've you've urged and built the the respect among because that's a a key that all us coaches have to. We've got to go out and you've got to earn the respect of the players. That that to me is key. You've got to earn it. And those guys they'll climb ending mountain for you, they'll do anything for you. So I believe on when you're going in, and when I say you don't conditioning levels across all sports plays a massive part in success. And yeah, sure, I've been known for that, being ruthless around conditioning and that, but you cannot compromise that. I think these days the coach isn't the boss.
SPEAKER_03Across all areas that he should be.
SPEAKER_00I don't think he's the boss across all areas, he should be. If I believe they need to go out and do some extras, this is the end. I have the right to say that, but it's not like that now. It's changing, isn't it? Or change it's it's changed, it's changed, and that's what I'm saying. And I and I think uh but as a coach, you want to go in on your terms win or lose. Yeah. Whatever, whatever that means, you know. Love it.
SPEAKER_01Gordon Titchens, what a pleasure it is to have chatted to you today. Hey, if if I may, I I'd just like to give you my three takeaways of some of the key points that I took away from this chat. Number one, this concept of the harder you work, the closer you become as a team. One of your big statements is you want of unity in a team. And the way you did it was that concept of work together, stick together. And I just think it's a lovely one to bring that sort of physical nature to like in an emotional tie-in as well. And making the hard work a reason for coming together is absolutely sensational. I think a lot of coaches would love hearing that from you. Number two, I loved this traffic light system where you talked about whether you want you want about 80% greens, 20% yellows, and ideally no reds. And I love what you said about if you ask if someone what they are like character-wise, and you say instantly outstanding, they're in the green. And if you have to pause, they're in the yellow. And I think that's a nice little habit or a little tool that coaches can use to just make a little assessment of their own teams using that traffic light system. And number three, I loved the value you put on in building relationships with your team leader, getting that trust factor, that coach-player relationship, because it does lighten the load of a coach, but it also optimizes the environment. It maximizes what you're doing as a coach when you've got an offsider that's inside the team working with you and doubling down on everything you say. And I think the value of that is absolute gold. And I think it's important if you haven't got it in the team, you actually work to build a relationship with your team leader.
SPEAKER_00Chief, pleasure.