Ben John: Building Community And Skill In Online Rugby

What if online coaching didn’t just deliver drills but built a real sense of belonging? We sit down with Ben John—ex-Ospreys center and the force behind The Rugby Trainer—to explore how a lockdown idea became a global coaching platform that helps players love the craft, master the details, and feel part of something bigger than themselves.

Ben shares the simple cornerstone of his method: a ten-minute habit and a skill flywheel. Players work a focused skill alone, try it at team training, then test it in games—looping back whenever the game reveals gaps. Along the way, he reframes “fun” as the engine of progress: not just laughter, but energy, variety, creativity, and competition that keep people engaged. He pushes against social media perfection by asking for three messy minutes instead of polished highlights, because mistakes are the most honest data a coach can use.

We dig into the off-ball toolkit that changes games at any level—move, scan, communicate—and how to teach presence with a simple switch on, switch off routine. Ben opens up about learning public speaking, using AI to triage questions while keeping feedback human, and running monthly webinars where players and parents talk about confidence and big-match prep. Even his occasional trick shots have intent: widen reach, get more people to pick up a rugby ball, and model the grind of learning through failure.

If you coach, parent, or play, you’ll leave with practical ways to build habits that stick, design sessions that feel alive, and teach athletes to coach themselves. Want more? Subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review with the one idea you’ll try this week.

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If you want to chat directly or explore options for your school or club, flick an email to ben@coachingculture.com.au
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Transcript

Belonging And Learning Through Mistakes

SPEAKER_01 1:06

We are community beings. We want to be a part of something. We want to belong to something. And I think that is even more important online. Building the habit is the hard part. The goal of what skill you practice is the easy part. It has to be educational, has to be entertaining, and it has to be my personality. Everything is perfect on social media. Everything we post is perfect, everyone's life is perfect. I don't want you to send me a perfect shot. I want you to send me three minutes of your session. So I can see them making mistakes. People forget that that's the best way to learn is making those mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Ben John. Now, Ben is an ex-pro player for Ospreys in Wales who played 79 games at centre. These days he is the world's biggest online coach. Ben John, aka the rugby trainer, with a massive following on social media who love the awesome content he puts out. Rugby coach, content creator, YouTuber with an Instagram tagline that says, inspiring you to pick up a rugby ball daily. Ben is leaving a coaching footprint on the world that will last a lifetime and longer. Ben John, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yes, yeah, thanks for having me. Good intro, apparently. Great intro. Um, yeah, no, thank you. Yeah, shocked to be on you. Really, really grateful. You asked me about some incredible coaches uh on here. So yeah, it's just yeah, massive privilege to be on you, man. And you're doing so well as well. So uh yeah, big up to you as well. Amazing.

Lockdown Origins And Brand Strategy

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Ben, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to have such good people on the show. And it's cool to have you because it's like uh we were just talking earlier about that movie Total Recall with Arnold Schwarzenegger, which you haven't seen, but I have. And there's a scene in there where they're playing hologram tennis, the way of the future, coaching of the future with modern tech. And you are at the forefront of this online coaching and nailing it and getting a huge whatever you call that landslide of people enjoying what you do. So, mate, let's just before we begin, how how did it start? How did the rugby trainer start?

Learning Content And Audience Psychology

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Lockdown. So starting it, I think a lot of people a lot of these um yeah, things starting lockdown now because you've got time to think. Uh yeah, and I was a head coach of a gym at the time, so everything moved online because obviously we couldn't go to the gym, so I had a lot of spare time. And I just uh thought to myself, if I was a kid, I would not be doing press-ups, sit-ups in the house. I'd be playing with a rugby ball, I'd be throwing the ball around, annoying my mum and dad, uh, maybe doing some sort of tackling drill with my brother, whatnot. So I just thought it's a cool opportunity to do some skills for kids to follow. Do this, get the ball around your back, do these passing drills, whatnot. And at the time as well, a lot of the pro players weren't um training either. So I reached out to some of the Welsh lads and just said, Do you want to jump on a live Zoom? Because that's what the fitness world was doing. They were jumping on Zoom and doing fitness sessions for everyone to follow. That was the obsession. So I was like, right, we can do this with rugby. Let's let's do it. So uh I did a few of those sessions um with some cool people like James Hook, Lee Halfpenny, they all jumped on, which was amazing, and then had an appetite for it. So then Ospreys, my ex-team, reached out to me and said, Do we want to do a collaboration with them? I had to do some lives, and they just started growing from there. Yeah, lockdown one ended, and then I obviously had to go back to my proper work, which was my my gym setup, but then I missed, I missed doing all the skill stuff because it's it would be it would have been about four years since I touched the proper rugby ball doing skill, doing rugby coaching, because I was a personal trainer. And I just I just loved it. I got the buzz back and I just thought, right, I sat, I sat, me and my wife sat down and we were like, How do I how do I do this full-time? What what what should we do? Um and yeah, we just came up with a plan on how I can virtually quit my job and just do the rugby trainer and just back myself. And so the word the rugby trainer came about because my wife is in brand and we had a little sit-down and she said, Who do you, who do you, who you who in the space is doing really well with the rugby stuff? And um it was it was only one, the OG, that was the rugby bricks. But I always used to look at the body coach, which is Joe Wicks, because he was the audience, the similar audience that I was looking for. I was looking for like grassroots, looking for youngsters to get them into fitness or whatnot. And he was just doing a primary school fitness regime at the time in the UK. So Joe Wicks is a UK personal trainer, he's got millions and millions of followers. So no one knew his name at the beginning. Everyone knew him as the body coach. So we were like, right, okay, we need a brand. My wife was like, well, we need a brand, we need something because no one cares who Ben John is, but they'll care who the rugby trainer is or the rugby coach I looked at at the time, but that was taken. So we went for the rugby trainer. And then um, yeah, from there it's just um, yeah, it's just got a lot of mistakes along the way. I had a thought of, right, I'm gonna be the rugby trainer, so that means I can do some personal training, gym work, and I'll do a little bit of skills. Because um I still had personal training clients and I still wanted to be relevant in that space. And then I realized then there was more appetite for the skills side of things because there was hundreds of personal trainers doing rugby stuff. So yeah, I moved in just purely skills as time went by. Um and then two years ago, then I went full-time with the rugby trainer, which was um meaning, yeah, fall into it. I was just doing the rugby trainer stuff, which is which is a cool, yeah, cool milestone.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yeah, isn't it? I think it's a cool concept that you've become a professional online rugby coach. There now, I think that's a rare thing that that that anybody can make a living doing something they love online through rugby. It's absolutely awesome. Now, what was your skill set like when you started this? Because it's not only the rugby stuff, you've got to learn all this online world, right? Is that is that you?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Yeah, the the skill stuff was the easy part for me. But when when I when I was a player, any interview I had, I was terrible, awful at interviews. I didn't want to be there, didn't want to talk, didn't have social media. My wife or girlfriend at the time was like, Ben, get social media, you can start plugging brands and whatever. And I was like, absolutely no chance of getting social media. And then moving into the uh personal training world, because there's so many personal trainers in London, I was like, right, how do I market myself? Right, I need to learn to be um to be good online and be in front of the camera. So I invested quite a lot of money in courses, doing, I've got a public speaking coach that's helped me talk better in front of the camera. And also uh right at the beginning of the rugby trainer, I had a client, Alex Priest, who is who's who's a big dog. Well, I saw him as a big dog anyway, in the in the marketing world. And I I reached out to him, I was like, oh man, I'm trying I'm thinking of this thing, uh social media concept of rugby trainer. Do you mind helping me? Thinking he would just give me a couple of pieces of advice. And then uh yeah, he decided to help me and he said I'll back you. And uh yeah, I've I'm with you. So I've been with him for five years now, and he's massively helped me with the business side. He's he's involved in my online rugby academy with me. So we're both co-founders, so he's helped me with the business side. He's been uh he's been a massive help for the brand and the and the and the company growing it.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

But what about your what are your online, what about your social media skills? How are they? Are they average or are they?

Authenticity On Camera And Childhood Habits

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, at the beginning, they were, yeah, again, loads of trial and error. And the first thing you think about is what's my teammates gonna think? Me like doing this. But luckily at the time I wasn't playing, I wasn't playing with the team. But like my close mates, I was thinking, God, they're gonna give me some sticky if I uh if I post this. But yeah, so you you have to you have to kind of put your ego to the side and be like, right, no, I'm doing this because of these reasons. I have a reason why I'm posting this. And right at the beginning, I still still have this mindset of wherever thing I post, my aim is to encourage one person to pick up a rugby ball. Everything I post. And it falls into so a piece of content then falls into three categories for me. It has to be educational, it has to be entertaining, and it has to be my personality to it, because that what that's what makes it unique for me. Um, and then if if I if I put and then sometimes I posted a video a couple of days later, I'm like, nah, actually, that doesn't cover three spots, so I might take it down. And then over time I learned more and more about that. I learned how to film, how to edit, what to look for to try and because obviously social media, you you've obviously seen it. It's it's a lot of psychology behind it as well. It's about how I can keep people's attention for X amount of time and and move on. So there's yeah, it was a lot to learn. It was a lot to learn, which was which was interesting, a lot of mistakes, but yeah, like you no no, that's um that's how you that's how you get better.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Oh, I love it, mate. There's some massive coaching points for this podcast and and what you just said about putting your ego to the side. I think that's like coaching 101. It's it's very easy when you come into coaching to have a huge ego and get defensive and things, but you've had to learn, you've got to drop that. And I loved how you just talked about you just narrowed it down to one person learning one thing at a time. And and I think that's a lovely coaching point too, just to have a laser-like focus on just a small thing and it keeps you locked in. But what I loved most, Benny, was adding my personality to it. And I think that in itself is a coaching, is really important to be yourself. How do you how do you get that? How do you portray that across camera screen? We talk about it here on this podcast around being authentically you when you're coaching in person, but how do you what's some of the things you do online to to make sure you're being you?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

So through the social media element, it's just my passion for I'm doing, I'm doing I I'm lucky I'm doing something I absolutely love, which is virtually me, rugby ball, and doing some skills, virtually. I s I started off with just me throwing a ball at a shed. Right, hit the hit this shed, do this, this, this, and this. But it's just a passion for I I as a kid, my my uh childhood growing up was my dad was a cricketer, footballer. He'd take me, my brother, my sister down the park, and we would spend yeah, days, whatever, just catching tennis, balls, playing, getting my ball in the in the hand. My teammates after a rugby game down the park straight away. We're playing, yeah, full contact or whatever. Playing, we're always playing, always outside. But that that was in in for um that was virtually what I had as a kid. And then it seeped into the professional, just spending time on my own, working on my skills, grabbing a teammate after. So those extras, those things that I do, the individual skill side of it, is something I've been passionate about since as a kid. So it shines through in the content that I show them because I actually love what I do. I'm lucky that I get to do it. And even if one person just watched my, I'd still do it anyway. So even if you take it all away and I had to reset, I'd do it again anyway. Just adjust a couple of things.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

I love it too, because a lot of people some people won't notice about you. 195 centimetres tall. Like you don't normally become a skillful rugby player at 195 centimetres, right?

Ten-Minute Habit And The Skill Flywheel

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, 193. I am. You always gotta you're always gonna put a couple of two centimeters. Is that what you've done? Yeah, you've done that program. No, I don't know, I don't know what that is, because it said 195, and I think it said like 70 kilos. I think that program did, so I was uh a beanpour, but I'm about nine hundred and ninety-three, so I'm still still six foot three. Yeah, and I was just lucky that I was tall, gangly, and had um, yeah, just love loved the the skill side of it. Um and I as I said it came from my habits as a kid, my dad being like Ben, get out, we're doing some catching, we're doing some doing some drills. And I think that that that's my philosophy is to encourage people to spend just 10 minutes working on their individual skill. And I always think of it as a as a flywheel. So all those in my online academy. So on my online academy, it's for kids from the age of 10 to 15 years old, and it's all based on 10 minutes of training. I I I tell them that this is a flywheel, this is a part of a flywheel. So there's three parts of the flywheel individual skill, team training, flying it in your team training, and then having a go in the games. And then it just works. If you take one of them out, yeah, it might work, but it won't be as effective. You might, your percentage of of success of the skill might drop. So if you take away the team training, you do things on your own, then you try in a game, yeah, you're not exposed to trying it into your team training. So you you might lose the um feel of it, when to do it and whatnot. So I always feel like I like to think about that flyerwheel. Work on your pass, for example. Try that style of pass in your team training, get some feedback, adjust if you need to, and then try it in a game. And if you make a mistake in a game, then yeah, go back to the flywheel, try it again in individual, work on cra master that pass, and then you have to then do it in your team training. It has to be a little sequence there because as you know, the skill is only as good as the decision as well. So, and that's how you learn it in games and in training, in your team training.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

I love that. My my habits as a kid have shaped me immensely. That's quite a powerful statement, too. And I think for a lot of coaches who are coaching younger people, just the habits you put in at a young age is your testament to last a lifetime, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, and um, for example, if you were brought a kid to me uh online and they were absolutely brand new, it's not about what they do in the 10 minutes, it's just going out and doing something for 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be specifically strict passing because if I was a kid, I'd find that super boring, just doing 10 passing drills for 10 minutes, whatever. Go out, start off with just go down the park, take your kid down the park and just do something fun for 10 minutes, I don't know, something random, tennis ball catching, have a game one-on-one, basketball, whatever it is. So just get into the habit of 10 minutes, right? On Monday, we do it, we go to the park for 10 minutes or 20 minutes or thirteen, whatever it is. Just stick to a routine. And then over time, as they get a little bit older, that 10 minutes, then you can shape it into more specific stuff to rugby, and then it's easier then to. So building the habit is is the hard part. The goal of what skill you practice is the easy part to change. You can just move things into it, change, adapt it to your goal. So the habit is is the the hard part to to build.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

So that's a really good coaching practice, isn't it? You've got to create the love first, right? If if the love's not there from the outset, everything else is rocky ground after that, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you want to go straight into specific um rugby stuff, you and your daughter or son go to the park and re-enact a memorable moment in the game. Like when I was a kid, we used to, even though I'm Welsh, we used to re-enact Johnny Wilkinson's drop goal. So we were down the park, Johnny Willard spent 20 minutes trying to re-enact his drop goal. Um, and if I did something wrong, then my mate or my my my dad or whatever would just try to uh tell me, oh no, try this instead. Do I drop the ball like this? So you can still do coaching points, but you can still be fun and creative. For example, in England, now Paul Luck chipping over the top. Give that a go. Have a go at catching the ball, chipping over the top, and yeah, be uh had to be Paul Luck for uh for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

That's right. I I think it's a it's a beautiful phrase and I reckon it lasts more than just through your childhood. That fun first sort of concept makes it stick. And certainly in the professional teams I've been with coaching, the funner it is, the more the skills get better. Magnifies because people are enjoying what they're doing. They're trying that a little bit harder. And you often think with professional players, you don't necessarily need to do that because they're all motivated and self-regulated, all that stuff. But without question, you create an element of fun in an environment and you watch your skills and drills balloon and magnify and compound exponentially. It's amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Yeah, and fun doesn't necessarily have to, I think sometimes fun gets mistaken for just laughing. Whereas fun is loads of different things. It's create, it's being creative, it's energy, bringing energy to the session. It's um yeah, it's bringing variety to the session. Yeah, there's loads of different things what fun means being competitive. The reason why we play rugby is the competition as well, the games and whatnot. So fun doesn't necessarily mean laughing, it can mean loads of different things.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

The way you deliver the message to the kids or to the players is a good one to make, Ben, because that is often something that people say we can't be all fun, but just by separating out the fun is not just laughter, it is excitement, competition, create creativeness, variation. That's a important distinction to make around that word, because it often fun gets thrown around sort of willy-nilly, right? But to say it's a bigger umbrella is is quite an important coaching piece, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Yeah, I find that. I find um because yeah, you can't laugh all the time, no chance. It's it's a tough sport. It's a tough sport, but yes, yeah, it's absolutely makes sense for sure. Um, there's a few times I've done some uh post post-rugby. I was thinking, what can I replace it with? Because I wasn't very good at communicating how I feel. So I used to replicate, I tried to replicate, like put my body through a little bit of pain by doing something stupid, like a big fitness event. I did like a 100k and it was tough, so hard. It was very tough. We were through the Brecken Beacons. And there was a moment in that 100k where I took a little second, had a little look around, and I was on top of the Brecken Beak mountain. This beautiful sun was coming through, and I was like, oh, this is it. I am my body is fried, but this is the moment, this is class, this is this is my little bit of fun of this 100k grinding journey. So, and then I went on, and then afterwards, then that's all I can think about is oh, how how nice was that? How fun was that little moment there to myself? It was tough, but and it's the same with rugby, it's it's something parts is going to be very tough. But if you can get little moments within it where you can, yeah, um, have a little element of fun. And again, I I didn't laugh at that time, I just found a bit of gratitude for that moment. Yeah, I think it's loads of different ways on how you can portray fun.

Community, Belonging, And Online Loneliness

SPEAKER_00 20:06

I love that, mate. I love that immensely. I actually heard a little bit of research the other day around how the way you start and finish a session disproportionately affects your whole impression of the whole session. So, for example, if you have 10 seconds of just pure fun to start and finish, the feedback of the session, if that's there, is so much higher in the scores than if you just went straight into the session, just straight into the guts with no little element of fun book ending each end. And I I I I can see why. Like your last memory or your first memory sets the tone and the anchor point, and the last experience is like, wow. Like, and we we were chatting about this when we went away on holiday, went to the resort that we went to, and we were welcomed in, they were like, Oh, welcome, here's a coffee, all this stuff. We're like, Oh wow, this is incredible, and it just started the trip really well, and then when they finished, they they did the same, and we're like, This is amazing, what a great holiday! How uh and it was a rainy sort of holiday, and you're like, but just that little disproportionate you know effect it had was phenomenal. So I think that's cool that you reference the fun of those different things. Now, Benny, I I want to talk to you now about this question which we ask in the show, is and your perspective is an interesting one. How do you define a culture?

Personal Touch At Scale And AI Triage

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, uh great question. Like I'm based all online, and um, so that obviously that is I'm an individual individual skills coach as well, so I just work with the individual. But um how I would define it is for me, is a belonging, um, is a community. Those are the two big things uh for me that defines it because even though online we are more connected than ever, it seems to be that we are more a lot more the loneliness has got has gone up. Obviously, post-COVID as well, we're so used to being on our own, being on our phones, and we lose that connectivity, specifically in somewhere in London where there's so many people, but there's so many lonely people as well. And I think that's what's special about rugby is we have that community. And I've gone from being a professional rugby player and then going into I I moved out of rugby, and the first thing somebody said to me is when you finish, you'll miss the team more than the playing. And I was like, okay, I get that. And then went to a gym. And luckily, the gym I moved to, the job I had was ex-professional people in there, like sports people. And I had that culture straight away. It was absolutely amazing, loved it. Um, I had the best four years going with them, and then I did the rugby trainer, and it was just me and a camera on a field on my own. And I did that for I've done that for five years now, and the first two, three years, because he was locked down as well. I'd like lockdown two or three in the UK. I think we had lockdown for like two or three years. It was just me and the camera, and I I just missed everyone. It was it was a lonely place, and I did feel I lost my belonging to a team. And and I said to my wife, I was like, I don't really know what to do. Um, and she was like, Oh, why don't you go back and do some because I I I retired because of concussion, so I I couldn't do contact. So uh I decided then to go and play tag rugby with uh a couple of my mates, a couple of the Samoan lads or Kiwi lads that are living in London, and they play tag rugby, so I was like, again, somebody said to me firstly, oh come and play tag rugby, and I was like, I ain't playing tag rugby, what are you talking about? Um but I joined and absolutely love it. Just not not because of the game, but because I'm catching up with my mates, having a chat with them, feel a place of belonging. Um and I felt that personally for me, someone who I I feel like understands it. But then looking online, looking at some of these kids and and the parents that I'm coaching is right, even though I'm an online plan, I don't want to just send you a PDF and say, hey Ben, mate, all the best and draw. Me a message. I want to I want to create a community. And I learned a lot of this from building an online. So I built my gym's online um online program for COVID. And it was called it was a six-week little course, but it was all about community, all about encouraging people just to spend 20 minutes doing this workout every day. And I thought that is exactly what I need to do online. I need to do online in rugby, but instead of doing press-ups and whatever, I'll do skills. So building the community online. So, and that's why I feel like the online space for myself has been successful, is because they don't just get a program, they actually get a support system, they get accountability, they get a community because it gets to a point where all I gotta do is spark a conversation, and then those who are in my community, even though they're all individuals, they all share their their tips, their advice on different parts of the game and off the off the pitch as well. Parents share their advice of what they've had in certain scenarios and whatnot. So yeah, it's it's a it's a cool environment. I think that is the it's a long answer, but the community side is such a big part because we are community beings. We we want to be a part of something, we want to belong to something, and I think that is even more important online.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yeah, mate, I love that. We are community beings. I actually think that's amazing to remember for all coaches because when you say that that it's uh so many lonely people at the moment with a lot of online stuff, that your job as a coach is to make sure there's a community that's building around whatever you're doing, whether you're online or in person. And when you sort of think about that, that you're the leader of a community, sort of just tweaks how you're approaching the duty you're about to go into, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Yeah, and uh so what does that mean uh for me? It means I am, if somebody comes into my community, it's my job to know as much about them as I can. I I want to know the player's name, players' the parents' names, where they're from, what position they are, have a little bit of care, oh, how did you get off this week? Or what what was what um what challenges did you face? Or why did you think like that? Why did you feel like that? So try and get as much information as I can because the next time I speak to them, I'm gonna be like, say is uh say Ben's the dad. Hey Ben, how's it going? How's how's um Sam? Or how's your daughter doing? Or blah, blah, blah. Just ask as many questions because they feel like they've been heared and they also feel a part of something. They feel that duty of care for me, because I genuinely really do want to care for them because I want them to get better. Because the longer they stay in the program, the better they will get. So my aim is to try and keep them in there by yeah, actually genuinely caring about people, which is sometimes gets overlooked on online spaces because it does take time. And a lot of my time is messaging people, which is which is uh, which is yeah, it is tough sometimes, but it's also a part of part of my job, which is uh which is quite nice to be fair.

Coaching Players To Self-Diagnose

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Is is that actually a big part of how you do it online? You make a real effort to just respond to everybody personally in a in a day where ChatGPT and all that stuff's hugely prominent. You actually make that effort to reach out and connect?

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah, for sure. I in my in my on my in my academy, my online academy, yeah, I'll I'll message everyone back, give them, yeah, give them, yeah, give them a voice, voice note as well, share, share my opinion and whatnot. And then it's a different world then on social media because I get a lot of messages and I've got three or four different platforms and I've got an academy different platforms as well. So not just the rugby trainer, I've got the rugby trainers academy as well. So there's there's a lot of questions on there. So I've started to start to integrate some AI just to get a uh just to get as much information as I can. But then when that information gets detailed, I'll then voice note them or message them. So um I have started using a lot of AI tools to help me with the initial conversation to get as much information out as I possibly can. For example, you might give me a follow up, Ben, and then I'll I'll prompt you then with, hey Ben, why did you follow? Did you follow me because of X, Y, and Z, blah, blah, blah? And then you'll be, you'll say, Oh yeah, my son is struggling with his tackling, and then boom, straight away, then I can see that, and then I'll respond myself. I'd be like, right, have you done this, this, and this firstly? I'd be checked my YouTube, trying to get them to because I I I don't want to just give the information straight away to them because that's the easy part. I want them to I want you to ignore. So I'm virtually coaching online. I'm just saying, Ben, why why do you think you're you're making bad tackles? What's going on there? What why you why is your son? Ask your son, if he was coaching himself, why what was he was he doing wrong? So I would do as much as I possibly can not to give the answer because I want them to understand it better. Um, and then if they can't come up with the answer, then I will yeah, guide them to the answer and then um give them a give them something to help them then. That could be a YouTube video or it could be uh a program or it could just be a a little bit of a tip or whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Mate, it's so fascinating with the online coaching space because um a lot of what we talk on here is the in-person stuff, but you have to do be you have to what you're talking about, getting this community, this connection over a uh an intermediary platform is is a fascinating shift for coaches. Do you think do you think it's gonna become more and more prevalent, coaching online?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

So when I started, so I started in 2020, I think. Yeah, five years ago I started, and there was only one coach that I could see that was doing the online stuff, and that was uh Peter Bree and Rugby Bricks. And five years now down the line, there's loads of so many, which is awesome to see. And I think definitely there's a definitely a scope for it. It it does take a lot of time and and and like time and of your investment of time into it, but once you get up and running, I think there's there's a um it's definitely a yeah, a scope for it for sure. And the potential of growth is massive because you're not just reaching those in your local community, you're reaching millions and millions of rugby players worldwide. And what's quite cool is I get to see in my analytics of where people are watching my stuff. And places like in massive places like India are growing massively in rugby. And there's a lot of rugby growing in India, in Europe, in South America is massively growing as well. And obviously you get the the South Africas as well, and obviously New Zealand, Australia, UK, France. So, but yeah, it's cool to see where the rugby's growing and the opportunity for all your one-to-one coaching or whatnot is um, yeah, it's quite cool to see. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah, man. You'd hit you're at the driver's seat of of where the growth in world rugby is, right? Like just on your analytics, I love it. Now, when you're talking about online, have you have any had any shockers or mistakes that you've made online where you've missed the coaching mark? Anything that stands out where you go, I'm not gonna do that again, or even that other coaches have made online that you'd say I suggest isn't the best way of doing things?

Off-Ball Skills: Move, Scan, Communicate

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, so myself, the way firstly I was just always replying to people right at the beginning and give them the answer straight away. And then I learned then to be like, right, no, I I shouldn't give them the answer because they're not, they're just gonna take it and probably not apply it anyway. So I want to try and so I was trying to like get, even though it takes a little bit more time, but trying to get them to see what the mistake is that they're doing. So kind of getting them to be their own coach virtually, because then I always found that youngsters getting them to learn as a coach, as if they were going to coach their best friend or their mum or dad or whatever, they they understand because they understand the skill then a lot better. And that's something that I I do online now, is even though, so even if you are a part of my academy, um, so all my drills are skill-based drills like uh passing, tackling, whatever, that they can do on their own or with their with their teammate or whatever. And they would film a couple of their reps, one or two of their reps, and then they send me the video, and then I would give them analysis feedback um every month. And with it's exactly the same as that is I try to coach them through it, I try to give them a couple of uh a couple of questions. So it won't be like this, it'll be um it's an app called Loom, which I'll give, I'll give my face will be here, and their video will be here, and I'll be talking through and I'll give them a couple of things or a couple of questions to answer, and then they'll reply back to me with a voice note. And the way I speak to them is try to get them to see their mistake and how they would coach themselves. Be like, hey Ben, imagine this is uh this is Sam. You're looking at Sam now. How would you coach Sam to do that tackle a little bit different? What was missing from that tackle? Just voice note me, let me know, and I want to see if you can understand what I'm seeing. And then they'll give me the answer and I'll be like, Yeah, yeah, well done, blah, blah, blah. This week I want you to try and do what you just told Sam to do. I want you to try and do that in your training. Let's see how it goes. And yeah, drop me a message next week with your video of what you've changed and try it in your team training session as well. Give it a go in your team training session.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

And you found that that's really a powerful thing, which is instead of just saying, do this, you you're that coaching concept of getting them to be coaches on an online space, but it's powerful, right?

Hybrid Coaching And Growth Of Individual Skills

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, for sure. I I've I've felt that it's helped me and helped obviously allow the player to actually sit back and be like, right, I need to look at this outside of my mind. I need to look at this for what it is. I'm I'm looking at uh this video with fresh eyes now because I'm a coach's eyes. And I feel like the the the youngsters seem to take to that very well because they're just so used to probably just being told, do this, do this, do this. Whereas they're actually taking a second to be right, okay, I can see it now. I I understand. And then also they get to understand what their body is doing as well, because they are actually outlooking themselves. My body's moving like that. Okay, I I I can control my body, I'll just try and adapt and change. And when they do adapt and change and they film themselves doing one or two reps, then they get to understand their body a little bit more. Um and it's quite, yeah, it's quite a nice way of doing it. But also is making sure that they're not obsessed by filming every rep either. I always tell them do one or two reps and then put the camera down and then just get on with your session, do the rest of your session, and just as long as I see one or two reps, then we can um yeah, we can give a little bit of feedback for that.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

That's a that's an important point, isn't it? Because in a day, day and age where it's so easy to film everything, you suggest don't film everything because what what does it do when you're when you're obsessed with filming yourself the whole time?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, it's and also this day and age as well, everything is perfect on social media. Everything we post is perfect, everyone's life is perfect, and kids miss the bought down of right, how do they become perfect? How did how did that pass become so good? It's because they made a thousand mistakes. So people forget that that's the best way to learn is making those mistakes. You need to you need those mistakes. So they need to understand that it's not about being uh having perfect reps all the time. I don't want you to send me your perfect shots. I want you to send me three three minutes of your session so I can see what you're doing well and what mistakes you're doing, so then we can adapt and I can see them making mistakes because that's how they're going to get better.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I'm actually uh intrigued about that whole concept. Like put the camera down and just just work, play and work and and make mistakes. And then you almost want to take a random shot rather than the beautiful one that you've presented, right? For the social media. I think that's I think that's an important point that you just put the could put the camera down and just go, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Yeah, it's um it is tough. It is because uh obviously you you would always want to send your coach a really good, oh look at this, look at this clip, coach. This is quite a nice little clip of me passing the ball or making a line break or whatnot. So yeah, some sometimes I get like sessions sent, uh game sent to me of their highlights. And I'm like, right, okay, cool. Can you send me now? Can you send me the whole video? And I instead of watching five minutes of your highlights, I want to just watch five minutes of your game. I just want to see what you're doing away from the ball. Because if you are doing that well with the ball in your hand, right, how do we get the ball in your hand more? What you're doing, what you're doing without the ball in your hand. Um, and that's something that I work on with the individual is what are you doing off the ball? And there's three things I try to get them to be better at is moving, scanning, communicating. Um, and having that mindset of being like a Lionel Messi. If you watch him in a game, he's literally head on a swivel, walking around, communicating. So, can we do that? Can we move well into position whilst communicating, whilst scanning, and talking to players around you? And then what would happen then is you might get more touches and you might have a longer highlight wheel. So it's yeah, how we can get them with their ball in their hand for longer. And obviously, some players are 10 years old, so I I wouldn't speak to them like that, but the older boys and girls, I would try to get them to be better at those key because those are the skills that takes no talent. That plus hard work, and those are fundamental if those are the skills that every top player has is yeah, hard work, communication, movement, and scanning. That's that's what creates a very good player. And if we can nail them at a young age plus everything else that goes with it, then yeah, there'll be yeah, a much, much better player when it comes to that 18-year-old.

Coaches Who Shaped Ben And Switching On-Off

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Oh, actually, uh, I I I completely uh uh agree on that side of things. It's it's a fascinating dynamic too. Do you where do you see it going to going forward? Do you think do you think we're gonna have more online stuff, or do you reckon it there's gonna be a shift back to more in in-person stuff, or is it are we are we through the gate now? Uh and is it a digital world?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah, obviously the digital world will grow and grow and grow, but you can't beat real contact. Like as much as I do love the online world, it's nothing better than doing a one-to-one session. I I still do one-to-one sessions in half-term because I I love it. It's so good having that person coaching face to face and yeah, having a having a bit of fun with it as well, seeing their progress. Because what I kind of encourage them to do is if they are a part of my academy, once in a while, once every six months or whatever, come down to a session with me, I get to actually meet the person, I see their development, we all uh have a good session, and then I can still see their progress online as well. So it's kind of like sometimes it's a hybrid, but um obviously the players that live abroad or live away, I can't do that. But yeah, you can't beat that face to face. But I do think the the space will grow because it's still so one of my inspiration when I first started off, because there wasn't much in rugby, is looking at other sports. And football is big on individual skills, and then the online coaching world is big. Also, you have like basketball, NFL, it's all quite big in that individual skills point of view. And I feel like rugby is now starting to adopt that individual skills coaching role, which I think is quite fascinating and interesting to see because of the coaches have it's such a complicated game. The coaches have so much to think about. Like a skill of catching, we assume everyone should be able to catch well, but it is a tough skill. Being able to catch specifically at full pace, being able to move on and off the ball whilst having defenders in your eye, it is a tough skill. So players need to take it on themselves to to work on catching skills with a teammate or with their parents or whatever or with their siblings, just to just to upskill. So when they do come to the game and they feel so much more confident, comfortable on the ball, because it is a big part of the game. Same with passing, same with kicking. As a kid, it was usually the tens that used to spend their time on their own. And that was the only position that would spend time doing their own individual skills. Whereas trying to encourage all positions just to get their hands on the ball as much as they can. And the more they adopt that, then the more their skill level hopefully will go up and they'll go into their team training. Like I said, with our flywheel, they work on their individual skill. Their coach doesn't have to then spend X amount of time working on passing drills, they can do more team-based stuff. So I do think the individual's coach works hand in hand with the team coach and whatnot. Um, and I think it will grow for sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, it's it's fascinating that rugby is such a sport. There is actually so many different little micro skills in the game. It's not just tough. You know, like you look at all the different positions, each one's got their own components, which are so different to the others, right? It's a smorger sport to choose from, and that's probably the joy of rugby, right? This it's a game for everybody. Big, tall, skinny, 193 centimetre uh center, something for everybody. Exactly. Well, Benny, you you talked about that face-to-face piece, and there's still a real uh important piece here, and you you sense it more because you're obviously online the whole time. In terms of face-to-face experiences, who are some of the coaches that have left a mark on you as a professional player, and then it's led into your own coaching?

Mindset, Leadership, And Communication Tools

SPEAKER_01 40:44

So uh, yeah, when I played, we had Brad Davis, defence coach, he came across, and I thought he was brilliant, really enjoyed the way he coached. Yes, he was he was very, very hard at points, but then other points then he'd bring that creativity which I absolutely loved. He'd grab me after a session and exactly thought, oh, try this skill, or we'll have a little bit of fun, we'll play a game now, but it's a skill-based game, and that was great. But one thing that stuck with me massively is I was a 13, and obviously I know for well there's a lot of movement going to be on me defensively, so I need to be on my toes. And just before the scrum set, I'd be standing there, be like, right, ready, ready, ready. And then the scrum hadn't even formed yet, and I was just there holding tension and whatnot. And after one game, he came up to me and was like, he showed me that he was like, What are you doing? What are you thinking here? And I just thought, I don't know, I'm just getting ready, I'm psyching myself up, ready to read the play and whatnot. And he was like, that takes a lot of energy, a lot of focus, and you can't do that all game because I was like that all game. I was like switched on all the time. And he was like, the what the best thing you can try and learn is have the ability to switch on, switch off in key moments so then you can hold your focus. So, for example, soon as soon as the ball goes dead, switch off, turn to your teammate and just have a chat with him and just think about what what's happening in front of me. How what's the defense doing opposite? How are we gonna break them down? Have a casual chat about it, and then soon as you're ready, learn to switch yourself back on. And he said, come up with a word, put a word on a piece of uh piece of tape on your wrist, and then you can practice by looking at that word. Okay, that word means switch on, boom, get on into it. And then as as you get more used to it, then you don't have to put that writing down, you can just do it in your mind. And I think that massively helped because I I was I watched a video about Djokovic and they asked him why is he one of the greatest players? And he said it's not to do with working hard, because every professional rugby player or every professional tennis player works hard. It's about how well he can stay in the moment, how long he can stay in the moment for. And if he's thinking about what he did wrong or what he did right, then he's not in the moment and he can't perform the best he possibly can with his decision and his skill because his mind's elsewhere. So the best players, and I think this is absolutely true for rugby, the best players are the ones who can stay in the moment for the longest. And obviously that's uh that's a skill that we can learn. And I think that is what Brad was trying to tell me is learn to be able to switch on, switch off. But when you're in the moment, be present in the moment where I was just thinking about right what's gonna happen now in 10 seconds time rather than being in the moment right there, switch on, switch off, boom, and then yeah, play what's in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Other than it's it's kind of a cool concept, isn't it? That like what he was teaching you there wasn't uh a tactical tic tac skill, it was like a softer skill around the human aspect of things, right? So teaching you how how long you can stay in the moment and just giving you little pointers, but also encouraging you to work out ways yourself, right? And just acclimatize. I actually think it's actually an important one to know about that switch on, switch off. I reckon as coaches, you see that a lot, even in the way you turn up to training, not just games, but you turn up sw and you switch on at a certain point before training. I I certainly remember that as a player. That's an important piece to be able to cross that white line and you become something else, a different version of yourself, because rugby requires that. You can't be this aggressive person that's trying to tackle people at the supermarket and be on edge. You've got to be able to cross the line, you switch, you cross back, you switch back. Yeah, I think it's a is that what the some really good coaches you've had were good at, that those other things, not just the tic-tech?

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Yeah, I found that I used to love love that side of it because that was something that I I went nowhere near. I didn't do any of the psychology side. And looking back now, I wish I probably did lean into that side a little bit more and work work on that. Because um, somebody once said to me, I can't remember who, or something I might have listened to, being like, you work really hard in the gym and you train in your body, why not use a bit more of the thinking side of it, like the the psychologist or whatnot, lean into them because you're just training your mind, and that is that's super powerful. If you can get your mind sharper and more in control, then it's gonna massively help your game and even on and off the pitch as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah, it it's it's a little bit sometimes unsaid the power of the mind, right? Like, and it's often you don't think I've either got it or I don't. But certainly with my own progression in life, certainly realized things like leadership. You kind of think you're either a leader or not, but that's not true. It's a it's a skill set you can learn and improve, right? And that sort of goes to all of that stuff you're referring to.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Yeah, yeah. Is it anything that you've you've picked up, you've learned? Well, the psychology side.

Monthly Webinars And Shared Challenges

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Yeah, well that that would be a big one. The leadership. I remember when I was a a player, uh professional player, I got asked to be captain of the team onts. And I just said no. I said, I I don't want to. And they said, Well, why not? And I go, Well, I don't want to just I I I don't like standing up and and talking in front of the room. And they're like, Well, that's not kind of what leadership is. And I just thought, I don't like that, I don't I'm not good at that, that's not me, I'm not a leader. And that's just what I thought leadership was. But as it turns out, it is a skill you can learn. And and like yourself, I did public speaking training, went to Toastmasters, and it was just groomy through the roof. And then all of a sudden I realized I c I I can stand up now and just be myself comfortably up on stage. And you didn't have to be anything particular, you just had to be yourself. And and that's where you started to grow as a leader. And certainly what I've enjoyed on that front now that you're asking is when we talk about like player plow player empowerment in teams. I think a lot of coaches think, well, we just give the power to the player, you guys decide. The coaching piece underneath the psychology piece is you're actually facilitating, like what you do, in how they become leaders. Like I would have loved to have someone say, No, leadership's just this. Here's a little tip you can practice your leadership. Like in a huddle, here's a couple of words you can say, which are powerful leadership words. And when I got these little tools, they're just tools, like leadership tools. Say this at this time, and this will be the start. Do this at this time and this will be the start. Here's an example that in a huddle, I was sort of like, I I don't really know what to say here. And one of the coaches I uh chatted to just said, just start with trust. Hey boys or girls, just trust the process, trust the system. That's all we need to do. And you'll find that the whole group will go, okay, cool, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to put point out individual things and every little nitty-gritty. Just a a simple phrase like trust, trust the system, trust yourself, trust what you do, trust your mate. And then people just go, Yeah, I can do that. I can do that. And they do it. And then it's a leadership thing, but it's just a simple little tool. And it's that sort of psychology which I think uh that I've really grown a lot from, is that this stuff is all skills and tools you can learn. And I didn't always think that at all. Now I do it. Are you the same on that front?

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's specifically the the the the lead uh the talking in front of people because yeah, I found out the first two years of doing the rugby trainer is literally just me and a camera, and I'm speaking to a phone. I don't really understand who I'm talking to. And then yeah, after after lockdown, I came out and um came out with loads of followers and whatnot, and I had to do a few talks and I just froze up to start with because I wasn't I wasn't used to speaking to people because uh I didn't really do it as a professional rugby player because I wasn't good at that, and then I was like, oh no, uh I'm in an R in all the time and yeah, I found it tough. So that's why I grabbed that's why I I signed up to uh Charlotte who helped me with the public speaking, exactly the same as you, just to just to learn the ins and outs of what to do and just to be confident in in speaking. Yeah, I found it quite daunting to start with. Like this, when you message me with this, I was like, oh gosh, I'm pretty nervous with this now. Because I haven't got a I haven't got a ball in my hand or anything. It's it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

I mean What do I do with my hands now?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah, yeah.

Long-Term Impact And PE Teacher Wisdom

SPEAKER_00 48:47

I saw you got a pen. This is actually something I quite enjoyed, just having the pen there, because I find for myself, and if you ever watch me coach or talk in a meeting, I often have a book, a big ball book, and I just have it with me because if there's something in my head, I write it down because my head goes in all sorts of different directions and I will forget it. So it's just a little tool that I've had that helps. But a really cool one that um Sam Veste at North Hatton Saints said to me around this stuff, which I think is exactly what we're talking about, is he said that a lot of coaches will say things like, Our players need to communicate more. Uh they've got to get better at talking and communicating as an example, standing up and being able to talk. But then he went a step further and said, Well, that's my job as a coach. Like just as a lot of coaches will just say the players don't talk. But where in your session are you actually given that opportunity and guiding and coaching people how to be better talkers? And he used his team meetings as the opportunity to do that. So instead of him just getting up talking, he would use that as I want the players to talk more. So in these sessions, the whole point is them to talk. And so he'd cue people up, he'd make you know, he'd do those things. So he was actually giving them the tools. And I want you to use this phrase and I want you to have this tone, and and he'd make a really soft place for that to happen. And the more he could get them talking, the better they're gonna talk on the field. And he actually said the more better they can connect with each other, the more easier it will be to talk in front of people. And so that was part of his communication as well, is getting the connections better. And I just think that's a lovely concept around you know, when you're in an environment, it's not just the on-field stuff, but it's it's the bigger piece stuff, the connection, the leadership, the talking. And you've got to put time and effort into those as well, as much as any drawing skill.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Yeah, as you said, those softer skills, they they go a long way, and it comes into that place of the community and the belonging of the team, isn't it? You feel like you've been heard, you feel like you can speak your mind. Um, yeah, and and that goes not just the players, it goes for some of the staff members as well. And you're all you're all syncing up as a team, aren't you? And that's something I try to encourage in my online platform, even though the players don't know each other and not in the same team, is I do a webinar once a month and we do try to talk on topics that aren't skills focused. We'll talk about how to build confidence in a tackle, how to what was our last one? Last one was how to get yourself prepared for a big game. Things like that, where we I just get people to and what was quite cool is afterwards one of the dads messaged me and said it was really cool to hear some of the younger players talking about an issue that their son had, but he'd never heard any of his teammates talk about it. So it was nice to know that his issue before big game is is replicated from someone else, but they just don't talk about it. So it was quite cool for them to hear that from another mouth, which is like you said, trying to encourage them to talk and share, and then you get that synergy of, oh yeah, I feel like that as well. Okay, cool. And it's not just me.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

A problem shared is a problem halved, is the old phrase that goes. But that's a very good point. That's a very good point though, Ben. Like just by providing that platform, which you do, you're actually creating this community where it but it compounds the belonging by the little things which pop up amongst it, right? Like these little things like that. It's it's such a valuable resource what you're doing there.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, it's uh it's really cool. I I love it, it's so cool to have. And somebody asked me what's my goal with it all. And it's hard to say because I don't really know because it's unknown territory with the online space. But I just said to them, my goal would be in 20 years' time, someone comes up to me, a kid or an adult at the time, and be like, Oh, you're the guy who helped me uh 20 years ago. Rugby, thanks you ever so much. As long as I get that, I'd be I'd be so chucked. I'd be amazing to have. And so that that's my goal. In 20 years, somebody tap me on the shoulder and be like, hey, cheers, man, you you helped me. Something like this, it's the same type of mentality of your pro your PE teacher in school, like that P teacher there, you can I can still remember my PE teacher. What he told me, always be in the tri-scorers photo. And I was like, at the time, I was like, What are you talking about? I don't I don't understand. And what he meant is support the ball player all the time, support the ball player. And one of my strengths in the game was anyone who made a line break, I was on their shoulder, and I picked up so many little tries just by trying to be in the try-scorers photo all the time. And um, I always think back to that and be like, yeah, you obviously helped me massively. Uh obviously not just that saying, but yeah, just trying to push us, and hopefully that will be something in 20 years' time, the same type of yeah, same type of thing with some of the players I'm coaching.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

And what would you give uh piece of advice to any coach that's looking to sort of maybe not necessarily go full-time into online coaching, but just dabble in online coaching with their teams? What's a big piece of advice that you'd say to them?

Trick Shots, Critiques, And Learning To Learn

SPEAKER_01 53:36

So, firstly, um I I would say the good thing that's helped me with rugby is the ability to be ruthlessly consistent. We all want to be grow our business or grow our companies in a month's time. But I set myself a goal, right? I'm gonna do this now for the next five years. I'm just gonna chip away at it, chip away at it. Yeah, it's the saying we overestimate what we can do in one year, but underestimate what we can do in ten years. And I love that saying because if you just consistently show up, show up, show up, even if it's once a week online, show up once a week online and do that time and time again, a majority of people would drop off after a month. But can you do it for a year? Start with a year, show up for a year, just be online, show up, show up with intent. Those three things that I said at the beginning: inspire, educate, and personality. And do that online and be consistent with it for one year. And along the way, learn, watch what people are doing, find out what is working, and then apply it to yourself, give it a go, try it out, and then be consistent with it. And you'll be blown like you. You've I asked you before this, it must be two years that you've been doing this. You said it's only a year, like how much you've grown in a year. So imagine now doing that for five in five years' time where you could be. So it's just mad, isn't it? It's just like just tick away, tick away. Yeah, one week after another, after another, and see where you get to.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

Yeah, it's it's there's there's a lot of good stuff in life about that. Just the the amount of consistency or persistency you show is just incredible. Ruthlessly consistent. Love that. Now, Ben, the last question today, which I'd like to ask you, is what is one belief that you have about rugby or coaching that you believe in that you reckon a lot of your contemporaries would disagree with?

Social Media Shifts And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah, so because I I'll go I'll go more towards the social media side. Some of my social media posts are trick shots. And I I would do some sort of trick shot that you will never see in a rugby game. And I say to the audience, right, grab a rugby ball and give this a go. And I get loads of messages from whether they're coaching, uh, some coaches as well, coaches, parents, people, adults saying, don't do this, this is pointless. You won't see this in a rugby game. Obviously, I get a lot of positives as well. Be like, yeah, I'll try that out. But there's a big reason why I do that. And I don't do it all the time. I'll do it once a month, maybe. So there's three main reasons why I do that. And the first one is business reasons. For social media, trick shots are a good way to um to showcase my platform because it gets to more people, because it's not just rugby audience. It's people in the football world or whatever, they see my trick shots and it gets more audience to my platform. So it's it's uh social media, firstly, to get more eyes on my platform because it's something fun and exciting to do. The second one then is this could encourage not just rugby players, but as I said, footballers, different sports to be like, I can give that a go, I'm gonna try that out. So then they grab a rugby ball, they get outside, which is my main focus is can I inspire people to pick up a rugby ball? And all of a sudden then they get outside for they get outside and they might do something else. They might just be like, oh, I've got a rugby ball in my hand now. Oh, I'm not just gonna try that trick, sure, I'm gonna try something else and and and spend a little bit more time. So it encourages people to get outside and pick up a rugby ball and they might virtually go into something else. Because once you're outside, then yeah, yeah, you tend to spend more time outside. And then the third one then is understanding that to be able to do this skill, you have to learn to do it. Learning is a skill itself. You have to fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, adjust, and then as you go on and go on and go on, so you actually learn to be better at learning. And then you understand that mechanics then, and then you can chuck in, you can change the skill. So, for example, then you try, you try doing the skill, you've done all that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, then you get it right. Oh, amazing, well done. Then you come to me, then I see you do that, and then we're doing the same thing on tackle technique, and then you can't get it right, and then you quit. And I'm like, wait a second, you didn't quit when you did that trick over there, whatever. Just use the same formula. You try, try, try, try, try. It might take a little bit longer because it's a more technical skill, but it's the same concept. Is so they learned to be a little bit better at learning, even if it's a small little fraction of it, it's still still the same concept. Yeah, that's why I do it really.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

The trick shots are the magic for growth.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, exactly. It's it's yeah, it's trying to, yeah, trying to get people to get the ball in their hand, isn't it? And you never know. Because uh it's it's mad, isn't it, to think when we were kids, punishment was Ben, get inside. Yeah. Whereas now it seems to be the opposite. The punishment is now get off that iPad, get outside. I ain't going up there, it's raining. Whereas when we were kids, it was like, I ain't going inside, no chance. That's exactly right. Yeah, it's mad. So can we how is it going in uh Australia with the social media ban? What's what's that like with your kids?

SPEAKER_00 58:44

It's irrelevant. It's uh like not an issue at all. Like uh it's a good thing. I think the general consensus is it's a good thing. And I and I think it is. It just puts a little bit of authority to it. Like we as humans generally probably f follow the rules inherently, and when there's a rule, you sort of stick to it and you feel bad, naughty, and all that stuff. I think it's a good thing. I I haven't seen the flow-on effect, but certainly in our house it the kids haven't grumbled or anything at all. It's just life as usual. But it's a it's a it's a it's a fascinating moral choice, and Australia's gone that way, and I think probably leading the way, and it and we'll time will tell whether it's a good thing or not.

SPEAKER_01 59:19

But um Yeah, yeah, I tend to, yeah, I tend to agree with it. Yeah, I like I like I like the idea. I think the UK is starting to talk about it. So it's starting to, yeah, people are starting to look at Australia and try to s try to replicate it. I know France are talking about it as well. So that's something I've I've obviously kept an eye on over the last few because obviously a lot of my content is started off with trying to encourage the kid, whereas now I'm tending towards going and moving towards talking to the parents. And I'm talking to the parents now because obviously um I'm thinking ahead of what could be with with the social media banning side of it. So yeah, even things like that I'm trying to adjust and trying to stay ahead, looking at looking to see what's coming up. So um, yeah, trying to trying to learn.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Isn't it funny how these little shifts and policy shifts and likewise like laws and rugby, like that one little tweak here, it has this compounding waterfalling effect to a whole lot of people in different areas, and and you being the main one where this is your profession, professional online coach, and then a lot of your audience in Australia now aren't able to actually watch that stuff online. It's it's incre it's incredible the chain of events which happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah. Ben Ben John, if I may, I'd just like to sum up my three key takeaways um from this awesome conversation today, and a really different conversation to about a medium which is growing and will continue to grow. And they are these. Number one, this concept that fun is often mistaken just for laughter. And you pointed out that it's more than that, and it's a variety of things, from competition to creativeness to gratitude to variation. And I think it's a really cool concept, just redefining fun and what its association is and the importance of it. I just love that because I've heard it's sort of bandied about in a negative way sometimes. Number two is this we are community beings. I love that phrase around some of your definition of uh culture. And I actually love it that your job as a coach is to make sure that community is always there, continually building and growing the community, whether it's online or in person. And that's a duty of care for the coach and the leader to do. And number three is this concept that you talked about is getting players to be their own coach. By them thinking about a drill or a skill as if they're coaching someone else, is a really lovely way to understand better. It helps them just take it away from the self and put it to someone else. And when you get someone to be a coach, the learning is better. And you said later in the show, learn to get better at learning. And I think by making players think like a coach, they are definitely doing that. Ben John, what an absolute pleasure to be on the Coaching Culture podcast this weekend. If you want to know more about Ben, the rugby traineracademy.com is where you'll find him. But honestly, you just type in great rugby stuff and it'll come up across all platforms on social media. Unless you're under 16 years of old in Australia, in which you won't be able to access those. What a pleasure, Ben, to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

Thanks ever so much. Loved it, enjoyed it. So, yeah, thank you for for inviting me again. Yeah, really honored to be on you, mate.