Culture Is a Delusion: Jed Thian’s Brutal Truth About Rugby

The opening punch lands fast: learn how to control yourself or someone will control you. From there, we pull a thread that runs from Roman drill fields to packed terraces—how rugby evolved as organized collision, how the ball operates as a symbol of authority, and why our modern pursuit of power and pace may be steering the sport into dangerous territory. Jedi brings a provocative thesis: culture is what you do whether you win or lose, not the mask you wear for the cameras. If that feels uncomfortable, good—it should.

We dig into boozing as decompression, the military rhythm of effort and release, and how today’s optimized athletes have turned the kinetic dial up without giving force anywhere to go. That leads to his most controversial stance: reintroduce rucking as a functional safety valve and scale back substitutions so aerobic limits reshape bodies, tactics, and angles of attack. When breakdowns were faster and messier, teams attacked wider and dissipated impact; by slowing the game and straightening lines, we’ve amplified head-on collisions. It’s not nostalgia—it’s physics meeting design.

The journey shifts to Asia, where women’s rugby is fierce, technical, and fearless. Smaller frames deliver huge hits through timing and conviction, shattering lazy myths about softness. For coaches crossing borders, Jedi’s advice is simple and hard: learn the language, even badly. Vulnerability builds trust; trust unlocks effort. Along the way we confront a painful truth: the bond we celebrate often proves seasonal. If culture is real, support must outlast the whistle, and safety begins with the player who chooses to prepare, speak up, and step back when needed.

Come for the history and stay for the challenge: play because you love to play, not to be watched. If this conversation pushed your thinking, tap follow, share it with a coach or teammate, and leave a review with your take—should rugby bring rucking back?

For all your rugby and sports gear needs Check out Silverfern here: https://silverfernsport.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=coaching-culture

Transcript

Opening Provocations And Safety Warning

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Before we get started here today, ladies and gentlemen, I'd just like to say, this is actually can be quite hazardous. So, learn how to control yourself or someone will control you. Culture in the context of rugby is is a delusion anyway. So it's not gonna work out. Yeah, all these terrible things about rugby. Where are the dead bodies? Where are the bodies? Where are all the bodies? You know, when you go to the graveyard, oh, died of rucking. It's that, you know, it's that collision in the game that creates that stress that only a drink can really take care of. Like I think we are about being mates. Um, you know, when the test comes, more often than not, let me break up there.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Welcome to Cojing Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Jed Thine, aka Jedi, pioneer of alternative sports commentary and non-traditional outlooks towards the game of rugby and life. He is young sports broadcaster of the year, unique, humorous, and a bloody top man. The Jedi, as the name would suggest, has deep wisdom of the game and the people and the cultures and the customs in it. Has been advocate for Pacifica community and coached the Paniki Rugby Club in Wellington. These days he lives in Phuket and has a gazillion sports stations beaming in from all over the world to his beach bunk low. If you're on the move for a fresh outlook and refreshing perspective, look no further than Jedi. Jedi, welcome to the coaching culture.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Well, it is an absolute honour. It's an absolute honor. It really is. And it is somewhat ironic that you should be the one hosting the show. I mean, it's you can do some bloody work.

Boozing, Decompression, And Military Parallels

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Mate, I tell you what, well, our relationship goes back a long way. I used to love sitting, listening, listening to you chat all the time, and some of your alternative commentaries still make me giggle today, and I don't really want to repeat some of the phrasing used to get. And we were just talking about off-air about the amount of uh alcohol consumed 30 years ago. Uh certainly that is a cultural piece which is very different these days.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Well, I mean, you want to talk about the boozing? Maybe we'll talk about the boo. Let's let's talk about boozing. Like right a round. Well, before we talk giving this some thought. Sorry, mate, carry on. No, Hugo, let's let's start with boozing. Let's get straight into it. I mean look. Here's a funny thing. I think in in some ways, everybody that's involved with the game either has an understanding or an inkling that the game and the military are somehow like this, right? Now, you know, you you you hear some of these stories uh about you know the the the guys in North Africa and they'd spend two, three weeks out out on out in the sand having a hell of a time, and then they'd get a bit of R and R into Kiring. And they go back to Kiring and they had the New Zealand women there called the Tuies, and they would set up, you know, luncheons and for the for the key for the New Zealanders to go and have a break and you know have a bit. The boys would get in and just tear the guts out of it for the first sort of four or five days. Just all over Cairo, just letting it rip. And then it would slowly sort of calm down. Freiberg would come and see them. Town they're going pretty good. Chuck them on the train the next day, get them back out in the action. When you when you hear these war stories, the stories about the RAF and things like during the Battle of Britain, what you hear is they go and do a big effort, then they come back and they get on it. That's where I think the basis. What are we doing? What are we doing when we go and have a big drink? Is it because we love each other? I don't think so. It's that, you know, it's that collision in the game that creates that stress that only a drink can really take care of. Yeah, is it? I think so. I think so. You know, but they say that your body doesn't know really what's, you know, you get stressed, you don't know what's caught, the body doesn't really know, it just reacts, doesn't it? So you go out, you spend two weeks getting shot at by the Germans, you come and decompress by having a drunk. You go flying in a plane and getting shot at by the Luftwaffe, you come back, you definitely have a drink. You play an 80 minute game of rugby, or jump out with the boys, are you self-medicating or are you having a drink?

SPEAKER_04 5:42

What's your perspective? What do you reckon? What's your?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Well, I think I think given given the contact, given the nature of the game, given the intensity of the game, I think it sets the body up on the way to going, oh, I need to relax. I've been I've been I've been beaten up at hey, you know, when you've played Varsity A or you've played Denedin, and you'd had their Ford pack rubble over the top of you all day. Yeah, you're a bit shell-shocked. You can do with a cold one. But there's a there's a there's a there's a pattern there. And the pattern I think fits with rugby. And that's kind of how I see the drinking getting its flicks in the gun.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

But it did it today's drinking's definitely getting less in today's version of rugby. Are you seeing that over in your part of the world, over in the Asia at the moment? Well, the Asian kids don't really don't really booze anyway. Why is that different, Erican? If if they're are they still playing playing rugby?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Play a bit of footy, yeah, they love the footy. Yeah, they have a drink, but they're not they're not weak end drinkers like we were weak-hand drinkers. You know, it's not really part of the Asian style of doing things. They're not going down and throwing 20 bucks over the bar to get crate, you know. Well, that's not happening. They might go down and put 20 and get themselves an espresso martini and then take 15 shots of that for the Instagram, and then three of them will sit around and drink it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:09

Why, mate? Why is that so rich in a lot of other countries? Like, particularly the British Commonwealth countries, all seem to have a pretty boozy, well, it's certainly in a previous generation of playing rugby, certainly did have, and do you reckon all companies?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

I think it's that squatty behaviour, mate. I think it's that squatty behaviour. I think it is it is that military behaviour.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

Well, I guess you could you'd always argue that you know it's it's a country uh the British Empire is founded on taking over other empires, right? So it's it's it's a it's a colonies built on war.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Well, they've well they've they exported that that aspect of culture, right? So they've expect you know, these games like rugby are used to assimilate other cultures to the to the the British Anglo-Saxon way of being. And, you know, they talk about rugby preaching uh a special character. Well, the special character is, you know, learn how to be a wasp. And that's all fun and games until we're giving England a flogging on Twicketum. It's not so much fun.

Empire, Assimilation, And Rugby’s Origins

SPEAKER_04 8:12

So so you your your outlook is that the rugby is really just um a game to is as part of any sort of takeover of any land, is you bring in rugby super quick and then use that as the vehicle to bring people together in that country.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

It's exactly what the Romans did to the to the inhabitants of the British Isles. And they would have you know they what was it was called um Haasputum. Small ball. Groups of six, seven guys, eight guys, and it was it was literally a punch up. Now, one of the things that the Romans used to do was if the local chief had some kids, they'd pick the one that was most physically likely, and they'd put him in the academy back in Rome. And then when he was growing up, they'd bring him back over to Britain to take over the to take to be an officer in the local Roman fort and provide the policing of the locals. And because he was a local, and because he had lineage to the local chief, they sort of thought, well, we're hedging our bets here, but we've got a dollar each weight. Are they really gonna have a give him a hard time because he's the chief's son? But we've taught him how to think. So that's that's how these guys learned the game. Now, there's no reason for, you know, a small trading town sort of east of Birmingham to have this game that's taking over the world. You know, they call it rugby, but only because it's why? Well, because the Roman forts around there. The Romans took a similar game to the British Olds. It's been seen on every fringe of the Roman Empire. So it's it's a it's a concept of a group of men fighting violently with another group of men, training for combat with a small ball, and the ball is interesting as well, because the ball is really a bit of a metaphor for permission or authority. If you have the ball, you've got control of the game.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

The ball is a metaphor for authority and power. Yeah. Gee, we're really taking this, we're really going, we're going deep back here, Jedi. The forces are.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

I think it deserves look, we're getting to a point now in modern-day rugby where things are getting actually pretty dangerous, mate. What I can figure out. Guys are getting bigger, they're getting stronger, everything around them in terms of their performances is being optimized. The food, the sleep, the training, you know, the data, the understanding of how to do this, when to do this, why to do this. It's got to be a point where that all comes together in an uncontrollable and negative way. Because if I think we're pushing so hard, those athletes are pushing so hard at the edge of that performance envelope, that if they don't watch what they're doing, something fatal is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I guess.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

You can't keep loading up the kinetic energy and not give it anywhere to go. Kinetic Peninsula of a modern 15-man team, you think it, you think you think take some of these URC teams. You know, you take some of those South African URC teams, take the blues, take the Crusaders, and you drop them on a the pitch in the late 60s. And they would just mow everything down in front in front of them.

Performance Arms Race And Rising Risk

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Just mow everything. It'd be a bloodbath, wouldn't it? Going back to six. Wouldn't put a hand on them. Wouldn't put a hand on them.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

And and certainly when they got the ball, and the modern things went after it when they went looking for the ball, these these guys would have never seen anything like it.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Well, mate, you've you've raised a really interesting discussion piece, mate. You've really brought this culture piece all the way back to the Romans, mate, and not just starting the history of rugby at the rugby school, but bringing it back to the Roman era and probably uh numerous eras before that where this is just a continuation of a lineage of sort of contact, savage, military type sports, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Absolutely. You've got look, you've got you get through the Middle Ages, and like and people sort of say, oh see, it kind of falls with the radar, but really does it? No, it doesn't. Because it's so effective at keeping keeping professional soldiers and good neck, you know, you come through to say just before the the Enlightenment in Italy, you know, and the Medici are starting to exercise their influence in in the region. They've got so much money that they can afford to hire the the most professional and most effective mercenaries uh in Europe. Well, how are these guys keeping these professional companies fit? They're playing a game that you still see in Florence today. And we've all seen it. It's that crazy game they every year they come in. What was it called? Uh calico calico? Calcio.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

No, you've seen it, we've all seen it, right? It's just I think that's that's that's the that's the best look we can get of what that concept was back in the Middle Ages, which is an echo or a reflection of what was being done by the Romans an age before that.

SPEAKER_04 14:22

Well, here's a here's a deep thought. Do you reckon we're just in a in a process of like there's all these different versions of the same thing that just get echoed throughout uh history? Do you reckon our current one at some point is due to expire and then there'll be a down period and then another version of it will come out? And the reference I give, which I think is an interesting one, is like the gladiators is a form of that because you just have to look at the Coliseum, walk around that, and you go, gee, look at look how many people would have been in here way back then, and now it's dead. And you you sort of assume the reason it became dead for similar sort of reasons, right? Because the gladiators just got so beasty that they as eventually someone said, hang on a minute, this is this is getting a little bit silly. Let's just end this thing now. And do you think that's the life cycle of a contact sport?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

I would say it's the life cycle of a contact sport, really gladiatorial stuff. I mean, that was being used as a distraction, really, wasn't it? I mean, it was it was the the bread and roses kind of buzz. It was, you know, keep them occupied, and they maybe they won't notice the empire's falling down.

unknown 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

So there's, you know, you'd say, well, the US sees that now. People are quite happy just to turn around and watch, you know, five or six hours of that on a weekend and pretend.

Echoes Through History To Calcio Storico

SPEAKER_04 15:44

Well run it straight.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

That's that's the latest one, is it?

SPEAKER_04 15:46

The run end straight.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Oh, I mean, this, yeah, I mean, this is uh that's a concern, really, to be honest. I've seen some of that. I mean, this is this is uh it's that's an idea that should have just been a bit of fun, and but the the the the idea of commercialising everything, of exploiting everything, of getting a badge on it and getting on the screen and getting someone's attention, it's uh you know, it's vulgar to a point.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Right. May well um May, I'm loving this this deep dive, but I want to I want to get back to this one, mate, uh and particularly to run rugby around with sort of touched on a little bit, but how do you define it, the word culture in rugby? And and once you've defined it, what's a myth about it, Eureka?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Culture in the context of rugby is is a delusion anyway, as far as fucking as far as I can work out. Um I don't you the culture the culture is it is it what you do whether you win or lose? Or is it just what you do to win?

SPEAKER_04 16:45

You mean explain the losing aspect of that? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

If you it's something that you would do regardless, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

So this is something that gets done every time, regardless of the the outcome. Is that is that is that culture, or is it only culture when it's associated with winning?

SPEAKER_04 17:06

I would say the culture's there regardless. And and the perception of whether the culture's good or otherwise is a hard one to define. Through subjective, I would have thought. I wouldn't say it's necessarily winning defines it, because you can just have a horrendous culture and be winning. Yes, you can, right? Is that treatment?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

How do you want to be treated as a as a player? How do you want to be treated as a group? How do you want the group to treat other people like themselves? You know, listen, that's potentially what I feel like a culture is like. You know, you know, as a group of as a group of men, can we morph at the right time to do the right thing for the right person in the right way? Can we morph?

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Gee, that's like we're are we talking like Voltron or something like that? Or yeah, yeah, I guess so, yeah. With our powers combined.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

That's Captain Panel.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

The idea is flexibility, tolerance, the ability to, you know, be water, my friend.

Will Contact Sports Hit A Breaking Point

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Can we morph? Can we be water? Meaning, can we bend and turn with everything that's put in front of us? Can we go round things? Can we find different paths? Can we work with the flexibility and adaptability of water? Correct. Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee. Be like water, yeah. I like it, mate. I like it. So, mate, do you think that potentially is the biggest myth rugby about well, about culture in sport in general, that it's not about winning or losing. The culture doesn't doesn't define winning or sorry, winning or losing doesn't define whether you've got a good or bad culture. It's it's impossible to know.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

That, you know, there's sometimes when you're playing in the side that, you know, you're three, four weeks, you can't actually have a little bit of a run. You're having a tear, it turns into six or seven, things are looking great, things are looking fly, and then the wheels come off, and try as you might, you just can't find those threads to get it all back together again.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

You know. What what is what is what's what if there's a culture has created that fragmentation? What has drifted? What has changed? What are we focusing? Focused very much on the outcome of everything, but you don't really try and feel what's happening in the moment.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

That's quite tricky to feel. That's that's like uh a Zen's stuff.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

It's for rugby player, I think. It is for rugby player, yeah. Gotta be in the present. We we I guess while when when I we I was doing a thing, your mentality is for one day a week, it's Sunday. So you get through the week to get the Sunday, not really. That was my my whole week was Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah.

Defining Culture And The Be Like Water Idea

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Well, I I'd say that's most players. That in fact that's the culture of most environments. You you're working towards the end target, which is the weekend or the Saturday or whenever you're playing. You're building up to a crescendo of boom, this is it. Yeah. There's the one. Yep. D done. It keeps coming back, doesn't it? This military thing. Keeps coming back. Well, mate, well, well, we're talking about things like coming back, mate. You're now living in Phuket and you've been around the scene of Asian rugby and Asian culture now for a while. What's the difference? What is the difference? And if we and if we just look at the sporting context, what's what sets it apart? What's different over over there for for people that haven't been involved in rugby over there? What tell us about it?

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Probably there's probably a dozen stories ago. Here's one for you. The the Thai women, when they play rugby, the 1570s, one of the strong styles or stylistic things that they bring is this really heavy, heavy hitting physicality. And they're not big people. But when these Thai ladies plock on to the target, they hammer it. You've never seen pound for pound, you've never seen anything like it. It's actually frightening. They've got no hesit they have no hesitation. They see it and they hit it and they hit it hard. They, it's just a phenomenal amount of. I thought it was a little bit silly the way they were doing things, but it's just the way they are. They have no it's got they don't actually have any fear of it. They want to get it. They want to get after it. As a result, the Thai ladies have got quite a reputation for their defense. It's their attack that always causes them a few problems. They end up in Japan for an Asian rugby championship game. And while they're there, it's announced that the king number nine has passed away. And the Japanese officials pay the team a visit and the offers given from the Japanese government to fly them home. But they elect to carry on and play. Now, the difference between Japan and Thailand is night and day in terms of these two teams. The Japanese have been a long way down the road with rugby for a long time. They're just generations better than everybody else in the region. There's no there's no way to say it, no other way to say it. They are out on their own. So the games really nothing. But these Taiwan knowing the line of the king, the line of the invitation to play, they play, they play and they win, and they fly hard. So I I've always found that result to that speaks volumes about the way that all the Asian players, Southeast Asia, Korea, Philippines, it's it's they've got heart. Yeah, maybe they're not the biggest people in the world, but they've they've got heart. They got courage. They got, you know, they've got pride.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Just as much as anybody anywhere else has. What does that come from, mate? Where what's the history and the backstory to that sort of sentiment of playing the game? It's hard to say.

Asia’s Rugby Landscape And Women’s Game

SPEAKER_02 23:01

I mean, it's not connected potentially to anything we'd be familiar with as as in Tipidans or New Zealanders or possibly even as South Pacific Islanders, mate. You know, so we this game that we play, it's you know, it was it's uh we have a different mentality when we play it. But the current you just see small people taking on a task that looks this this shouldn't happen. This is not gonna turn out well. And they commit, and when they commit, it's remarkable what they make happen. A they just they just keep coming. They keep coming. It just keeps coming and coming and coming, and they it will not stop. They st do not stop. And they and that I think that's the difference. That's possibly the way they that's possibly the way they look at solving the problems. They just throw more people at it. Because they've got more people to throw at it. That's that's the mentality. Just keep going, you're going, you're going, you're going, you're going. And not asking more questions. Go until we've knocked it down, or it's right over the top of us. Yeah. One of the I think one of the misperceptions about um about some of the cultures here in sort of Southeast Asia and East Asia is they're is they lack uh a degree of kind of uh how'd you say mongrel or aggressiveness, but it's simply not true.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

Why is it there that that that is a perception, right? What what what does that come from?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Well, it it comes from the fact that they have to live within themselves to get along. You know, you you have to just I hate this, but I've just got to keep it buttoned up.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

And that's that's the other, but that's when you look at the extraordinary numbers of them. I mean, if you've got Hong Kong and there's a three-hour flight circle around Hong Kong, you're half the planet lives within that three-hour circle. Yeah. It's four billion people.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

So it's kind of like, you know, you you're like that. It's like this. And if I lose my call, you're gonna know all about it, kind of deal. But they they choose to just keep a bottle, keep a bottle, keep a bottle, keep a bottle, keep a bottle. But it's there all right. Don't you worry about that. I see some bad boys out there.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

And and d that is the that is the joy of rugby in a lot of ways. It gives people an outlet to release that sort of stuff. Well, I mean, and look what would have happened to you if you hadn't had that. Yes, mate, exactly. Who knows where I'd be right now if if uh Jim had.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I mean, the important case, Rugby, I mean, we're having a laugh, but you know, your man Dan Hooker back back home, and he's had his he's had his his first one-minute scraps in his backyard, the neighbors have complained, the cops have run him up, and he's turned up and he's turned up at the court with a letter from a doctor, and it's just hey, look, not everybody can get benefits from going to the yoga. Some people benefit from getting in a fight in a welfareing and controlled environment. And for some of these guys, it's actually not a bad thing for them to go out and to experience that kind of intensity once a week. Otherwise, if they don't get it, they'll get it somehow. And that's where the negative stuff starts coming. And the judge agreed. Did he really?

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Judge signed off on it. Signed off on that he needed it as much as you need yoga. Is that is that the and he what he said that's fine. You needed to have that fight.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

He signed off and said, these A, they are being run under controlled circumstances. These are not guys just turning up and beating the hell out of each other in his backyard. No. It's officiated. There's a medical team on hand, there's experienced people from, you know, the fight industry, I guess you could call it. So these these, you know, they might lack some of the nouns. There's no changing sheds, there's no goalposts, there's no sponsorship boards, or this can't be sport. They lack some of the nouns.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

But the benefit of the of the opportunity to go out there and and to exercise or be exercised at that intensity and that kind of activity, these guys they're good for the week. I don't need to go and beat anyone up.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

I got it off my chest. Do you think the game's got a little bit of in jeopardy of losing some of that with just where it's going with the health and safety stuff around it? That ability to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Look, I mean, it's been it's been odd pieces of behaviour creeping. I don't necessarily know why. You know, if you look down the sidelines now, the the people being paid to be there in some kind of official capacity that serves some kind of function, it's starting to outnumber some some of the teams, I think you'll find. You know, you've got game day manager and referee manager and four sighting officers, and it just goes on and on and on and on and on. It's it's okay, okay. Well, but what's it all for? I mean, what's it well it's there to kind of present a very fair and just and controlled environment, a regulated and safe environment.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Is that is that is that a is that degree of safety a fallacy we get? Is it is it just not does it not compute, you think? Yeah, there's that that that does not compute. It's like saying that no man's we need to create a safe passageway through no man's land.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

The safest thing you can do with rugby is you've roll straight off the band. This is dangerous. Everyone's got the whole, you know, hoi. Before we get started here today, ladies and gentlemen, I'd just like to say, this is actually can be quite hazardous. So learn how to control yourself or someone will control you.

Controlled Violence As Outlet And Safety Realism

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I remember sorry, mate, you first. No, I remember towards the the back end of my playing career when I was essentially just hanging in for it, like it's just eking out the last little bit, and I was slow and on one leg and all that stuff. And I used to have to just check myself before games, before I went out and just say, you can get really hurt today here. And I and I just checked myself on that, and just as my last little saying to myself, and I did it because it just raised that little bit of awareness, it just sparked that last little bit of um adrenaline to just go, Oh, yeah, stay on here, keep your eyes open, watch, be ready, just pay alert because you know you're not as fast as you were, all that stuff. And I found it a a really important piece of my routine before playing is actually tell myself that, sit down quietly in a corner, tell myself that as a bit of a spark. Probably not everyone would agree with that. Maybe it's a bit more, but it's like looking, probably it's probably the same concept as telling yourself, one day I'm gonna die. So make sure I do do well now and enjoy myself type thing and be aware of everything in present because that was kind of my mentality, and I actually found it quite a good one just to keep my edge up, which you need. A good approach, a sound approach, I think.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Thank you very much. No one's gonna be, hey, look, no one's more interested in your safety than you. That's that's you know, it's and as a teammate, you know, I had Ross Mitchell was my open side flanker at Zingaree. Man, I loved being his shadow because I knew what a guy like Ross gave could go on and do in the game. So anything I could do to protect him was worth doing.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

I reckon, Jedi, that that statement is a huge one, and particularly for this audience, all coaches should be just no one is more interested in your safety than you. And I reckon that is a real personal responsibility piece. And I reckon it's massive for coaches to actually engender that to teams where you understand that it's you are looking after yourself. So you're prehab, you're getting your body right, looking after yourself post injuries, and even if we say concussion, you know, which is the hot topic a lot, like that. That's you're the first port of call, and you need to make calls that are right for you and do a little bit of research and ask the right people and get the right response. But I I think that is a good one as your base, that no one is more interested in safety than you, and to remember that, like you're not just going onto the field saying, Oh, if something happens, the doctor will will get me, or the fizzy will be right. You've got to think backwards from that, actually. Am I ready to go? Have I done the things I need to do before I'm walking into this arena essentially?

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Absolutely. Get real. Yeah, just get real about it, you know. That's that's look, it's a fantastic game. I love playing it. And I love trying to play it as well as I could play it. And I enjoy and when I was, I enjoyed it so much.

unknown 31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I enjoyed watching a good gamer for you.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

No problem at all. But I mean, hey man, there's some sharks out there. And if you don't watch your back, they're quite happily by it.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

Mate, if we just flick back to your statements about the Asian culture and how it differs over there, I'd love to know what your thoughts are for coaches that go over there. Because I'd imagine you would have seen, you've commentated lots of those games, and a lot of foreign coaches go over to those parts. Have you seen them do well? Or what are the misses people get culturally wrong when they go go do rugby and sports in Asia, you reckon? What do they miss?

Coaching In Asia: Language, Humility, Trust

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I think we're I think we're people fall off is not doing enough or perhaps not putting themselves in situations where they show the players how they behave when they make mistakes. And instead of sort of getting down on what I've seen that I thought was a bit whack, I'll give you some insight on some things I think that worked really well. Yeah, I got you. Sorry, mate. No, no, no, I think the I think the coach that enters into the fray uh and tries to talk the same language so if you go to Cambodia learn how to try and speak Cambodian to the players and and put the effort in to talk to them and you'll sound like a babbling idiot. You will sound like an absolute fool, but that that little bit of self-ev self-deprecation when it actually comes time to talk about rugby, there'll be nobody else to look at. So you give yourself, you drop a little bit of face, you show that you're vulnerable, you show that you're not perfect. Did I say red when I meant book? You know, did I say your grandmother when I meant push? You know, these but that's something going, huh? Well, this guy's a bit different, you know. This person's different. Well, you become, you probably won't be allowed to leave the village. But if you want to get it, if you want to, I think the the coaches who have gone in and made an effort and used the local language as much as they can and tried to build some kind of vocabulary, so that's uh that's not showing them getting prepared, but that's actually showing you're walking towards them.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

And as a result, they'll come to you. Well, when you show you're walking towards someone, they'll walk towards you.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Is that the is that the modern coaching way that things have to go, you reckon? You have to be that these days?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Well, hey, look, you can you can go in um confident of what you know about the game. You can go in armed with all the the right shibblets and techniques and some strategies and this, that, and next thing, and hey, I can get some stuff, you know, I can do this, I can talk to that person, and we can do this and do that. But trying to talk to people in their language and showing them that you're trying to talk to them, that's uh that's you'll find that people won't try to take advantage of that. They'll help you because you're helping them, how can they help you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's very it's very universal, isn't it? Particularly in in sports like rugby where there's that little bit of edge around the hurt factor, and you want to do everything you can to protect yourself, so you're very open to suggestion and helping people that are gonna help you back, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:44

And the other thing is in in Asia, there's a you know, you talk about Lao and Cambodia, but particularly Laos, you know, you've got the strength of the game in these countries is with the women. Mmm.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

Generations of males well the general Yeah. And the woman are taking this mantle into this contact sport. The women play the game. Because they're very good, aren't they? Like like you said before, like aggressive into it.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

When they play, they they play for blood. But you know, the the uh it's that community aspect is that that group togetherness. And these are these are important, it's an important sort of activity to bring, you know, groups of ladies together or teams together, they have a they have a great time doing it, but you don't see a lot of the guys playing. Generally because sometimes and most of the time they're working. You starting to see some of the boys' teams come through now, right? In the 15, 16, 17 department. But you know, if you're looking for a Cambodian men's national team, good luck. Thailand, well, look, yeah, they do have a men's team, but it's it, you know, it's it's outshone by the women.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Yeah. And and the w the the women's game is just taking off, isn't it, through through Asian cultures?

History, Indochina, And Sport As Social Glue

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Well, they seem to they seem to be the ones that are the the the recipients of of World Rugby's ambition to bring more numbers into the game because somebody worked out that, you know, 50% of the population were women. Statistical evidence there to prove that we could double the amount of people playing the game if the girls got going. There is that. There is, I'm being a little bit cynical there, but that's just my way. So, you know, there was there's a lot of effort put into bringing girls into the game and and teaching them confidence and teaching the sort of stuff that, you know, we consider that special character uh that that rugby helps to create. But there were no boys playing because there were no boys around.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

It's a very different dynamic, it's a very fascinating look at a at a in an area where rugby's played that it's it's it's it's different from other other parts of the world.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Incredible. Well, they're still they're still digging ordnance out of the ground in Lao from Vietnam War.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

Yeah, that's incredible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:16

So, I mean, this is you can occupy so many different paradigms in this part of the world. It's it's frightening. And I could I could fly two hours to uh Phnom Penh, where there's the border skirmish at the moment with the Thai. I can fly up to Gian Tin and Liao, where, like I said, there's they're still digging US bombs out of the ground. These these things that we think happened a long time ago, it's kind of still going. This area, this Indochina peninsula is just unbelievable. The history and it's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

Yeah. And doesn't it isn't amazing we keep circling back to the history. We started this conversation talking about you know the Romans and before that and how they used the rug a version of rugby has always been around culturally as a servant to the military to keep people engaged, and then the the British Empire you potentially well using it as a as a form to unite new colonies and to bring people together in those new lands. And it's funny when you actually stop and think of like that those bigger picture concepts around what the games derive from and what its purpose is. It's it's actually it's actually just a fascinating piece of thought, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

And there and there is the beauty of it. It's a that is the beauty of it. You can take you can have a squad of guys, and then someone comes in from a different region altogether, and you can assimilate them in the course of three or four trainings. Done. Next thing you know, this this new guy that's come in is fulfilling the role exactly the way you need him to do it.

Munster, Garrisons, And Why Clubs Endure

SPEAKER_04 39:50

Yeah. It's like there's an inherent, no matter where you're from, this is inherent, like aggressive, the human trait where you need to be a little bit aggressive, and a lot of people need that sort of out. And rugby is the natural go in there, serve your role, do your bit for the team, your battalion, and you'll get reap the benefits of the what do you call that? The social what did you do did you ever wonder why a club like Munster exists?

SPEAKER_02 40:18

I have never. I would love your thoughts. You know, you look at the geographic position of it. It's Limerick, it's not exactly in a it's it's like Asterix's outpost. In the dark bush kind of deal. And there's Munster. Why is Rugby Why are these guys strong at Rugby? Well, if the British held a garrison in your town, you'd really like them. But every Saturday, they gave 15 men, local guys, the opportunity to come inside for 80 minutes and work it out. You'd want to be one of those notes. You'd be going, I want to be part of that 15. I want the opportunity to go in here this weekend and grab one of these guys and come hiding. Because I don't like them being here. I don't like them being here. If they think I like them being here, I don't like them being here. I like what they're doing on Saturday, I'll be part of that. What books do you read?

SPEAKER_04 41:10

What is what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Well, they call it the garrison.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Do they re I didn't realise that they call it that? Wow.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Look, now if you're a if you're a garrison commander and you want to be able to just keep the locals top north, you know, they're angry with you, but you don't want them being livered. How do I just blow the froth off this every weekend? I know how to do it. Yeah. Yeah, man. So I mean, does that not seem like a fair enough reason why rugby would take root in Munster? And the reason they become good at the game is because every time they played it and beat a British team, it reminded them of why they started playing in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

Woo! Jeez, man, it's it's bigger than just uh four strips of leather inflated with a rubber inner. There's a whole lot of history here, mate.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

There's a whole there is a whole lot of history in there. What was it, Greg McGee's Fourskins of the Men? What a yeah! That whole question that we asked ourselves in the 80s about rugby, you know? What a yeah! What a loved game. The first time I ever saw two men fighting in the street was 1981. Scared the hell out of me. Scared the hell out of me. I was a kid in Clyde growing up, and it spilled out of the Dustin pub and T Blakes were talking into each other about the tour. That's that's just that's how wild the game can be. New Zealand's a terrible place for everybody. And I mean, it's like, wow, that's interesting. I remember that. That I remember that's the first time I'd ever seen people fighting. I ran inside like I was like, oh, hell like this.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

What do you think? Um what do you think the future holds for the culture of rugby going forward? What's this trajectory?

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Well, I think the best thing we do is bring back rocking and probably not knock the subs on the head, get back to a more um aerobic game, which will force some of these body weights to to drop, some of these shapes to change, and some of these forces to decline. And let that let that physical limitation of 80 minutes shape the game again, rather than this kind of foot to the floor mentality that um, you know, and look, they say it's exciting, they say it's fantastic, they say so something really bad is going to happen if they keep hammering away in this direction. And I think what the people what people missed about rucking because you had all these terrible things about rucking. I got rucked, mate. You got rucked. Sure, you got rucked, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Yeah, man.

Bring Back Rucking And Force Dissipation

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Right, so where are the dead bodies where are the bodies? Where are all the bodies? You know, when you go to the graveyard, oh, died of rucking. Died of rucking. Rucking killed him. Nobody actually there was a smear campaign about rucking because it didn't look maybe aesthetically pleasing. And when they pulled it out, they messed around with the thinking of the game that was there, it wasn't there by accident, it was there for a reason. And the reason for the rucking is it creates an angle in the game which dissipates a lot of the force. When you start coming into you know, low angle, low angle um game line attack, you know, anything below nine, the forces start loading up as you start running straight down the pitch, right? Well, they know that if you open up the game a bit, 30% in the first, I think between nine and eleven percent, or nine-eleven degrees angle of attack on the game line, you lose 35% of the interest. So as the game has straightened up because it's gotten slower, because there's no rucking, we've gone into this mentality of game line theory.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Running straight, essentially. Running straight. Run it straight game in real life.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

So you come down five, it creeps up 17%, four, it creeps up another, forces creep another, up another 17%, three, up another 17%, two, up another 17%. But you open it up, drops, drops, drops, drops, drops. So the rucking was there, it dissipated. That that stopped that straightness from occurring.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Because the lucky speed speed was so quick that uh because people were just simply getting out of there in a Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

So you've got that natural angle. And when you go back and you watch the games out of the sixties and the seventies, you know, mid eighties, the game is starting to straighten to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

But it was never gonna get much straighter than it was back then.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

That was crazy running across the field and it was get round the corner, get that wing around the corner kind of deal. And as that as you started gaining ascendancy going forward, and they started having to hook around and trying the ruck opened up, that angle opened up, you just kept on flooding the line, you kept flooding that angle. So there was there was there's a there's a safety mechanism in that action. And here's the other thing I remember. I almost forgot, and I had forgotten this. The ruck used to be governed by the players.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yes, yeah, self-regulating.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Yeah. What what the referee did was just make sure that it remained consistent. Anybody that was being a dickhead, you know, got penalized and got told. But effectively, that was between the two teams. If the two teams want to play it hard out, played it hard out, as long as they could keep keep a lid on it, no problem. You can go as hard as you like.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

I can see what you you mentioned though about the aesthetics of that, right? Like it looks scrappy and messy and yucky, doesn't it? But like for me, that was I I love that part of the game. It was almost there's a reward for being brave in a lot of ways. If you're prepared to lay there to slow the ball down for your team and and wear the the the rucking, fair play to you. Like no one had a problem with you because you got you got stood all over. So it was a choice and you knew the choice and you knew the outcome. And it was a sense of bravery. I always thought it was a wonderful part of the game.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

I don't remember my list of motivations to play the game, having people watch me. As a motivation. I didn't want to play the game to be watched. I wanted to play the game. So I don't care what it looks like to you.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

I'm having a good time. I like that, Jedi. That's a lovely statement. I didn't play the game to be watched. Play the game because I wanted to play the game. Jeddah, it's come to the end, mate. We've got one more question. And it's been a it's been a fascinating conversation, mate. Super, it's super different for us. We've gone down history. We've gone down the the Romans and the Gauls and all sorts of different things. But I'd like to just finish with this question, mate, because it's the one we'll finish with. What's one thing about the culture of the sport, or anything, in fact, around it that you believe that you reckon a lot of your pairs would disagree with?

Playing For Love Not Optics

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Had the misfortune from time to time to be around when when some of the guys have had problems with the misses and bits and pieces like that, and you know as hard and as staunch as we'd like to think we are about being mates. Um you know, when the test comes, more often than not teammates aren't there. So people might think, oh, this that's a strange thing to say. But we you know I would love when times were challenging for me to have been able to get on the blow to to something I was played footy with, but it doesn't it's never happened. And I've seen guys being cut adrift because of a decision they've made or a circumstance that's come up, and I thought, well, you know, here's an opportunity now for the for the boys to gather around and they just haven't. Everyone's got their own thing to do. It's a different one. I don't think there's an answer, but I think that's the reality. We we kind of wear this identity of being teammates and having brotherhood and you know feeling that that bond. It's only seems to be seasonal.

SPEAKER_04 49:36

Bond is only seasonal.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

How can we how can we shift that uh concept, that mindset? Wow. Jed Thion, the Jedi, what a pleasure it's been to have you on the Coach and Culture Podcast, mate.

The Seasonal Bond: A Hard Truth

SPEAKER_04 50:05

And I'm just still absorbing that one, mate. Um that last statement, I think, landed pretty hard, actually, mate. It's uh it was a beautiful last statement. I appreciate it. I like to wrap up with just a couple of my observations. And I'd just like to do three, mate, and I'll you just got me a little bit because the last one is the first one, mate, for me. Number one, sometimes the bond is only seasonal. And I think that's a cool one just to remember. And that concept around what you just said is be a man of all seasons or a person for all seasons. And that is the bigger essence of humanity, and this game is just a portion of a bigger piece of life. And I think that it's always nice to be more than just the one season, a one season wonder. Number two, mate. I I've really enjoyed this conversation about the history that we've dived into. And the ball is the metaphor for authority, just that is a cool concept, and and just the way you've dragged in the past here to remind us about what this game came from, its derivatives, is actually quite special. When you when you know a little bit about what's come before, it makes you a lot prouder and more invested in what's coming in the future. And number three is this little phrase we said is no one is more invested in your safety than you. And I and I first hand love this one. Uh, I think all coaches and players and everyone invested in the game needs to take that on first and foremost, is that you are your own barometer. You know what you need to do and what to do better than anyone else. So that should be the start point. And then everyone else can have their two cents after that. Jedi, Jed Nine, what a pleasure to have you here today.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Mate, I'm so pleased to see you're doing what you're doing, and it's great that you've kept you know it's great you're showing that really cool thing about you in this podcast. That interest, that curiosity, that intelligence. It's it's been great to see. Keep it up, brother.