Scott Johnson: Why most team values are meaningless… and what actually builds culture.

Forget the posters. Scott Johnson, one of rugby’s most widely traveled coaches, breaks down culture as the simple, repeatable ways we do things—and the accountability that keeps them real. We explore why “team as family” sets people up to fail, how buzzwords like honesty can backfire, and why deeds and shared language matter more than slogans. Scott’s stories move from national team pressure to rebuilding environments, revealing how small margins can skew narratives while the real work happens in habits, standards, and clarity.

We dive into the art of creating one language across diverse staff and players, using humor and storytelling to carry tradition forward, and ditching war metaphors in favor of joy and perspective. Scott opens up about early missteps in Wales, where importing a model clashed with local identity, and the turning point came from meeting families, embracing national DNA, and asking a better question: what can these athletes do, and how do we win with that? He also shares a powerful leadership moment—preparing a senior player to “take one for the team”—that shows how selective confrontation, consent, and respect can reset standards without cheap shots.

If you coach or lead, you’ll recognize the modern delta: elite tactical IQ but thin experience in teaching, people management, and running a mid-sized operation. Scott offers concrete fixes: individualized development, targeted mentors, and attention to human signals. Look for the red flag word “new,” watch the car park, spend time in the physio room, and observe where people sit and who they talk to. Culture is human work—align words and deeds, set the banks of the river, and build a language that everyone understands. Subscribe, share with a coaching friend, and leave a review with the one buzzword you’d happily retire.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage: Scott Johnson

SPEAKER_01 0:58

There's guys I've worked with, and I love them to death but that would be family. The scoreboard might tell you I fail in my profession. Do I perceive myself as a failure? No, did I get the results? No. But was I a failure? No. The pressure was secondary the pressure I put on myself to do that job. But not family. We're all different. I see it more like a club. You know, you join a club and you've got differences, and it's okay to be different, simplifying it down to a couple of buzzwords. Doesn't show the respect I think the individuals deserve. I'm a big believer if you look back at history in cultures around the world, ancient cultures, the three important people were probably the medicine man, the religious person, and thirdly the storyteller. Well, I say the coaches today, but not the first.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

We're the storyteller. Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Scott Johnson. Scott is one of the most experienced and globally traveled coaches in world rugby, from club sides like New South Wales and Ospreys to international sites like Wales, Scotland, USA, and Australia. He's been head coach, assistant coach, director of rugby, and reset man. He's seen systems at their peak and at their breaking point. Scott's career isn't just about where he's coached, it's about when he's coached, often stepping into environments under real pressure. And I don't think there would be many in world rugby with his depth of experience. Scott, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Thank you. Nice introduction there, Mike. Well done.

Defining Culture Beyond Buzzwords

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I'm glad I got a got a smile out of you, mate. That's that's always good. Now I guess for you, and you might have some contentious thoughts on this, which I'm loving hearing. Is how would you define culture? And what are your thoughts on this phrase culture?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Look, you know, I hear it a lot. I get how would I say I'm a bit contradicted by this because you often hear about culture on teams win, and everyone extols the virtue of the culture, where I think a good culture is something it's not often talked about. But if you're asking me what culture is, it's probably how you do things around here, around your club, how you do it and what's acceptable. And secondly, making people accountable once we agreed on that. And it could be as simple as, you know, what you do at lunch, and I whether it whether you get to time on meetings. So as simple as that and making them accountable, and they're probably the tangible ones, and then there's a rugby side of it, which is probably understanding how you play. But I think we swept too much of it when there's trying to align different characters, different backgrounds altogether, which is the tricky part. But I think if you're going to talk about culture that's making people accountable, but they've got to know what it is they're making themselves accountable to.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Do you do you have, when you in your experience when you've done it, have you been conscious about it? Or is it just let it evolve with whatever's there? You've been in a whole host of different environments.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

No, I think look, I again I think there's there's got to be an acceptance. Yes, there's what the coach wants. I think uh going back to an old saying, because I think as a coach or a director of rugby, whatever you want to call it, there's got to be an acceptance. It's fairly similar to parenting to me. There's got to be, and my dad used to say, a river without banks is just a big bubble. So there's got to be an acceptance, there's got to be some boundaries put in place that you're comfortable and you're responsible for. There's got to be. There's got to be an agreement from the players, what's acceptable to them. You know, if I look, if I look at, if I look at physical standards, if a player's adhering to their physical standards, because you want the athlete to be the best athlete they can be. And there's got to be accountability to that. So there can't be shortcuts on that. That's a simple one. There's got to be adherence to understanding or uh knowledge of how we play the game. That takes a little bit of work and acceptance. But, and you know, probably intangible ones about respecting differences. But I'm not a big believer in you know, honesty. These big buzzwords that get thrown around change rooms, you know, like I'm not big on that because I struggle with hypocrisy. I do. I don't like that word if it's used on me and and they're correct. One, I'm really disappointed in myself that I got there. But I look at, you know, I look at honesty. I'll use an honesty as an example. I go into a lot of these change rooms and say you've got to be honest here. Well, you know, it can't be selective when you're honest. That word doesn't have an adjective before it. You're either honest or you're not. There's no in between. So I go into these, I see the buzz, I go on the change rooms, I go into clubs, I see the buzzwords. And you know, I if I use the word honesty as an example, I look around and I go, and I'm not judging people for that, but I'm thinking if I look at your personal life, Al, whoever this is, I know a bit about your personal life, and you're not honest there. You can't be selective when you're honest. So I I I'm sitting there going, well, you can't live by it. So get rid of it. It's bullshit. So I'm using that as an example, but everywhere I go, I seem to see this word that doesn't make any sense and is people can't live up to it. Me included. So if I go back to parenting, on its truest sense, you know, we've all told little lies to our kids to make them feel better. It doesn't so get rid of the word. Get rid of the word. So I'm not judging people for what they do. I'm saying we can't live by it, so don't have it.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

That that's I I like that because you often the the word stuff, like another great one just when you were talking there is like often teams think they're like talk the word we're a family, but that's not true because you don't drop your family members if they're not doing some their spelling tests right. You don't say, right, you're off the t you're off the family, but you you do in a pro-rugby team, right? Like it's different.

Boundaries, Standards, And Accountability

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I couldn't agree more with you because it frustrates to live in Dalos family. There's there's guys I've worked with, I and I love them to death, but I said I don't want to be in your family. But yeah, like I don't want to be in that in its truest sense. We're not family, we're all different. I see it more like a club. You know, you join a club and you've got differences, different heritages, and that we're different. And it's okay to be different. So I don't, I totally agree with you. I say it all the time, I'm really glad you brought that up because that's another bugbear of mine. I don't want to be in your family like I don't want to be.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

No, it's it's a different relationship, isn't it? It's a different relationship, and and it's okay to be different. It's okay, it's all right. You be yourself. So these buzzwords and all that, I'm not really into.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Mate, I'm I'm with you. It's um it's it's hard to drive something genuinely if there's a word on a wall, right? Like any of those, you would have been through a lot of them, those corporate team building type things when they get the A2 bit of paper out and they just write those words up and they say, right, that's us. And then it just gets thrown up at the end of the day and you never see it again, and you've just spent 20 grand of your life um on some words on an A2 bit of paper.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

It's horseshit for me. I think I just don't understand it and I don't get it. I just don't. And it's it's when you get so many different personalities, and I call you know, like if you talk about running a team, you know, and you include staff as well, you're talking 60 people, 70 people in a squad. Like the diversity in personalities and heritage and all that is vast. It's vast. So simplifying it down to a couple of buzzwords doesn't show the respect I think the individuals deserve.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

What would you do instead in your teams rather than putting words up? How would you do it differently?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I think if I was gonna put a word up and I was I'm just sitting here thinking about it, it would be like deeds, like you judge or respect me by my deeds, and I'll do it by your I'll judge you by yours. Like, but there's a meeting place, like I said, if we're talking about standards, what we do around here, you know. So, you know, so there's accountability for you. I'm a big believer that there's inductions when new players come in. There's so they understand what is expected. And I'm a big believer too that uh I'm getting older and I'm fortunate that I've got you know kids that are getting they're in the age of the players, the athletes like coach. And I s I see it myself. So I think there's got to be not everything's great today or better than yesterday, and not everything in the past was great either. But I think there's things you've got to take from the past into the future, otherwise our culture dies. I'm a big believer if you look back at history, you know, probably the in cultures around the world, if we're talking about cultures around the world, the three ancient cultures, ancient civilizations, the three important people were probably the medicine man of any denomination, the religious person, whatever, and thirdly the storyteller. Well, I say to coaches today, we're not the first two. We're the st we're the storyteller. So we've got to bring something from yesterday with us. And if I give you an example, a little things like, you know, it may be as simple as we don't have mobile phones at lunchtime, we're all eating together because we want to talk. Or you don't have, you don't sit down without saying hello to everyone before you sit down. Simple things like that. Uh bringing a bit of yesterday with today is as simple as that for me. Because the the buzzwords, and you've got to lead by example in that. You've got to, you've got to be consistent. You can't be hypocritical with what you say and what you do. I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yeah. And when you say what you do around here, there's no right or wrong way to do that, is there? It's just your way.

One Language, Shared Meanings

SPEAKER_01 12:22

It's our it's our it's your way. You know, I've worked with coaches. One of one of the challenges I had I found fascinating, and largely when we're talking, it's probably my key warnings have been through my stuff-ups, you know, when you you stuff something up, you go never do that again. I I look at it, you know, you work with different coaches and all that, and there's a lot of IP in the room. Communication's a funny thing, you know. Um that, you know, my dad used to always say, My dad had a big bearing on me as a coach too, but he always had a saying there's a big difference between listening and waiting to talk. Now, probably when I was a young coach, I was waiting to talk a lot. When I was in dialogue. When when you're working with coaches, you actually think you're saying the same thing. You think you are. But when you're actually forced to watch something together, you the communication may be slightly out. So when you talk about the way we do things, uh one of the things I've learned over time is you may think, oh, let's call it, you may call it a jackal, someone else might call it a poach. Something else. We challenge ourselves to get rid of that. We have one language, whatever it is. So we're gonna call it something, and usually based on him or something that occurred, and we call it that. Now for me, that's start of the culture because we're creating a language. Now, language, how we do things around it is is that that's what we call it. You may call it something else somewhere else, but we don't. Now communication's a big part of that. So there's an understanding of the meaning. The meaning of that word is this. Somewhere else, it might be something else, uh, something different.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

That's okay. Would you say this would be the big rock where you just like this would be your start point for a culture is create the language, whatever that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Well, it it's it's certainly a big part of it because that, you know, you're getting once again a vastly different personalities coming in together, largely. There's a turnover if you're in a in a domestic tech, 25%, 30% a year. There's got to be an understanding of what words mean, definitions. There's got to be an understanding. Language is so important. It's so important. And understanding what, and that, and I'm a big believer that humor, you know, if if you see something and it's a way of connecting with people, engaging with people in a nice way, they may get naming rights, for instance, you know, they may get something about whether they did something good or bad or funny or something. So when we see that, we could call that a herring, you know, a herring bone, because it's named after you, because you it's something that's ridiculous. That would be the match-winning triplay, wouldn't it be that special move from surely? But but I always believe that you put it up as a new word and they get naming rights. Like things like that, it's then get gets into your culture, it gets inbred because language is a big part of it. It is. So, and so is humor. We what we do, you know, probably getting off on a tangent here. No, I love the tangents because this is where the gold is. I don't like the metaphors, the war metaphors and stuff like that. I I think that's doing a disservice to service men and women that actually go to war because that's life or death. What we do is life, it's living. That's what it is. So there's gotta be a bit of humor. There's gotta be an acceptance that people are different, and our language is our language. So I'm a more down that line. What we do is a privilege to do, it's exciting to do, and at the top level, it's it's incredibly. You look back at your life and think, how am I sitting here in these chairs? I'm sitting here. So it's a privilege to do it. It's certainly not war. It's certainly not life or death. It isn't. It's exciting. I know a lot of people care about it. I certainly do, and I know that because I'm a cricket numpty. And when I watch the Australian curriculus through, you know, the ashes this year, I get nervous and all that. So I'm very engrossed. So I understand the passion that it evokes.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

I understand that, but it is a life or death. It's a great, great framework, isn't it? To actually make sure the joy's always there and you're not getting too serious about what essentially is just a game, right? It is a game.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And as, and you know, you go to work, you've got to be saying, you know, you've got to put in the time, the effort, you've got to do that. But if you've done everything you can, like it's a it's a funny profession coaching, if you talk coaching, but it's a funny profession, is the fact it's like when I tell young coaches, it's like having to sit for the most important exam of your life, and you're you're absolutely studying for six months, and then in the last minute they get someone to sit it for you. That's coaching. That's and that that's coaching. Because as soon as the fighters run on the field, you know, like it's you've got very little input. You have you want to think you have, but you've got little input. And you look at you you look at how like if you go back to a recent World Cup, Ireland and say New Zealand in the quarterfinals, it was a penalty between those two teams that defined a career. It could have defined a career. You go to the final, and there's a red card in that that defines people's career. Like, we're talking small margins. Either way, that could have gone. That could have gone either way, both those games. And we're talking life very differently. So there's there are so many things you can't control, but what you can control is your ethic and the time you put in.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Well, is it's quite interesting that you talked about that winning by small margins, but so small margins then shapes the um perception and the narrative, and and particularly what we're talking about here around culture, right? Like you win by a point, all of a sudden you've got the greatest culture in the world, and it should be the model, and everyone copy that. Whereas it's small margins, right?

Humor, Storytelling, And No War Metaphors

SPEAKER_01 18:36

It is, and what culture? You can't pick up a culture from I'm using New Zealand as an example and take it to South Africa. Just culturally, they are different people. Yeah, they di they are different and should be celebrated, but they're different. And that finding the connection between their off-field culture, if you will, and trying to uh bring that into their rugby culture is an art, an art that I failed many a time trying to do, and as a young cage, fail because I was ignorant about it. Have you got some examples of that? Yeah, I think the f the one that stands out for me the most was early days of the Welsh national team. I think at the time we're talking the early two 2000s, if you will, I think the two best teams in the world were Australia and New Zealand. And I was work uh at the time I was working with two New Zealand coaches, obviously, and uh Steve and um Graham, Graham Henry. But and then I come through the Australian system. And I think we tried to make I certainly did, and I'm only just speaking myself, is we tried to make them play like the Australians or the New Zealanders. That's what we tried to do. They weren't that top one athlete or personality, they weren't that tight. First year, it was my fault, it was me. It was, I got it wrong. Completely got it wrong. It was when I accepted, I had to understand more about their culture. I had to go back and see and meet a few of their families and understand what went behind the scenes a little bit, how, why they played rugby, what was in their DNA on rugby. Once I started to accept that, then I started to understand what they wanted to be. I had a game model, if you will, that didn't suit the athlete. I got it wrong. Completely got it wrong. Once I tipped that, and once there was an admission from my in my and talking from my personal point of view, once I accepted that, then I started to change. And there was things I felt that I could improve, like by adding some a little, a little, you know, a little out of seas influence to them, but I had to go to them. I have to get to them and understand that, and then started looking, what can this athlete do? Not what I want, what I expect them to do. What can he do?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Is that the question you asked first now? What can they do?

SPEAKER_01 21:05

What are we dealing with? I was saying, how is it that I want to play and let's have a look at the athlete I've got? And then I twist it on its head and say, let's have this is the athlete we've got. How can we make this a winning two?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Not the other way. Yeah. It's like you're trying to you bake a chocolate cake.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

You can't just say I'm gonna bake a chocolate cake before you check the ingredients because you might not even that's understanding them and seeing their their skill set. So yes, I I can I can fairly admit it that's an example where I got it wrong. I I didn't accept it. I well I was working in ideals, not realism, and there was an acceptance of me to understand.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Has has that um grown in you as you've uh like got more experience in coaching? I was gonna say age there, but as the experience has gone on, you've got more comfortable in opening. Is that just a is that just the process a coach goes through? Is that learning you start off hot and heavy just with the tactics and then it sort of you realize you need to go broader with your looking and look at people and backgrounds and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Well, I yes, yes, and yes, and no, then why I'm a bit hasn't just to give you a uh definitive answer, is I think there's a change now with younger coaches. I think the change, and largely if you go back to my generation, and I'll talk about my generation being, well, we could go back into the 80s and that sort of stuff. A lot of the coaches were educational practitioners. A lot of them, they come through a teaching background or a working background, okay? So they come through that. Now, if if if we're running a bar chart, we'd say their educational teaching was quite high and their rugby was here. Okay, their rugby acumen was here. If you then look at the coaches today, and then the younger coaches, they're probably the first of the generation that have gone from professional athlete to professional coaches. So their rugby acumen is incredibly high through the roof eye, but their teaching and uh administrative stuff is very low. Just they've never done it. So they've got to close the gap here. The gap's got to be closed. That that delta's too big. So you ask me a question, they've got to learn that the delta's there before they they accept that delta's there, yes. They'll learn it in time. But if they don't accept it there, they get caught in trying to be the smartest in the room the whole time. Because that's what their strength is, their rugby acumen. So they need to be the smartest in the room. So you'd like to think in time, this throws, or they need some effort and they need some education to get that a little closer to their rugby acumen because it's a pinball's game that we coach. That's what we do. We don't make anything, it's people, it's human endeavor. That's what we do.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

So we've got to get this other part right. Well, how would you suggest people do that? Like, like firstly, the awareness factor for particularly modern coaches, because that's that's a fantastic observation. I think you're absolutely bang on. Older generation, the teaching skill sets are higher generally, and the rugby lower. And today's coaches, the teaching element is lower, but the rugby IQ is higher. So how do you how would you suggest or give advice to young coaches to well, there's a couple of things with that.

Small Margins And Narrative Traps

SPEAKER_01 24:44

I think if you if you look around the world, I challenge there's not a lot of great programs that I've seen, and I'll stand corrected, certainly in a rugby thing with coach education. So that's the first one. The first thing. I think we can be better at that. But it isn't just about educating the game. These guys know the game better than I ever will. Like they just they because they've played it for so long on a professional level, they're fantastic rugby players. But they've been put into a position of power. Now, if I talk about staff again, they've got with their athletes and their staff, let's talk 60, 70 people. Like they've got employees. They're a mid-sized company, a middle, a reasonable-sized company they're running. And they've probably never employed anybody in their life. So they need a bit of help because everyone that works for you wants to get better, needs to get better. You're in a position just on running, but you've got all these people around you who want to get better. So they need a little help that's away from the standard coaching manual. They need a bit of help and understanding of how you do that and how you run your weeks and the feedback, how you get that. Because they're my I keep coming back. They're acumen is out of this world.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Have you do you think that modern coaching education practices actually has a manual which teaches some of the stuff? Or is that why you're yeah, is that why you're referring to it?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

We talk, you know, level. They don't for mine, and it's a sweeping generalization. I've been at a lot of systems, but it's a sweeping generalization. It's not personal, you know. I'm gonna I'm gonna be candid. A lot of these guys, do they really need to go to level four and say how you kick or run or pass? They know that. It's how they teach it. Oh that's how you're gonna teach it. You're not gonna stand up and show them how to do it in 10 or 15 years. You'll look foolish. You might be able to do it in the first four years of your coaching. You might be still in the key to your life, you might look good. Fast forward 10 or 15 years, you're gonna look like a mug if you don't, if you don't learn how to teach it.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

It's like is it that phrase you teach a man how to fish and he can fish forever rather than give them the fish.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

100%. So they've got to learn to do that. And then you've got to learn how you run your company, how you do it. You don't hide yourself in a computer because that's your strength. We all our default as humans is to go to our strengths. We hide in them, in those. But you got a lot of people. So the skill set that what I would say need to be work uh um needs work on is not often catered in coaching programs. What would you do? What would you recommend to a coach?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

To modern coach?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

So firstly, I think there's gotta be, it's gotta be individualized, whatever that is, because then you may get guys that are really strong in some areas, whether it's, you know, you you could still have guys that are extremely well educated and may have had a business. I don't know their history, so I'd get to to know what that is. And then I'd try to supplement programs that I think help with their deficiencies and align them with people that I think can help. Mentors type things mentor type things, yes, that are specific to their needs. So it's not a sweeping generalization. It's not, it's you know, it isn't. And you just have to when I watch them, the coaches, I I they're they're learning on the spot, and they're doing really good, but they're doing good for what they've been taught. There's a lot to learn.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

It doesn't slow down too. It's just it just keeps the the net keeps getting wider bigger and wider.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And I do believe you get a better coach, you become a better coach. You asked me this a little bit earlier, I probably talked around it. You get a better coach the older your kids get too. And I I I I I I say that because you know, we spoke about the family and how I disagree with that, but you see a lot of things as your kids grow up that you get affected because they are your family, and it and you take that very personal, especially things that probably you're not that pleased with, or and and then also their success, their success and files, you take them very personally, but you can actually see the same thing with an athlete or a player, but you you're not affected, so you see it more clearly, and therefore your response is usually appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Are you saying your response with your kids hasn't been appropriate times because they're more sometimes, you know, yeah, sometimes it tears you up, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Like it tears you up as that, and you're not as clear, so you probably in some cases you look back and go, Well, tell me you didn't hear that one. Like, or you know, and it could be I was too soft, or you know, but because you're tied with emotion, you yeah, you are. But the older your kids do, you live through a lot, you see a lot, you get affected a lot, and when you see things now, you sit there and go, I've probably seen a bit of that before, you know, like and there's uh there's a bit more clarity in your thought process.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Well, very similar to the that coaching element you said, there's no real manual for parenting either. It's got massive parallels, but you don't get any sort of guidance or instruction as a parent. You you are just learning on the cuff, and it's really up to each individual to decide how much upskilling you're gonna do, and just sometimes it's just based on how good your partner is.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It could be or or your parents or someone affects you in a positive or negative way. Yeah, either way, they're your key learnings. They are they are, you know, like so. In I always see coaching and parenting the similarities. I always see that.

Adapting To National Cultures

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I like that one too, Scott, because like with my kid, when you think about outcome for coaching, you know, you know, you know you shouldn't get caught up in the outcome of games. It's about the process and the performance and all that stuff. And so too it is with parenting, right? Like if you get bogged down with oh, they haven't done their homework or they haven't done their tests well, versus are they enjoying the learning process and and having a good time, it's very parallel to coaching, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:21

And what what one child responds to, the other one may not.

unknown 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

So there's there's very much differences in in a family of four, there could be significant differences. Now multiply that by a a a club, as I call it, of 60 or 70 people. It's a big challenge for a person who's just come through the system, a professional system. It's a big challenge for them. And on top of that, you add the pressure of the young, usually young home life. So they're going into a professional gig, they've got, let's call them, young teenagers or three, so they've got a lot of challenges going on. So these are my concerns that we have for the next generation of coaches. These are my concerns.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Well, it's actually interesting. I love that analogy to parenting. I think exactly the same. But when you talk about as we started at the start of this conversation, words on the wall like honesty, if you put that up in your home, you would find out pretty quick that it's not one you can live up to, as you've mentioned. But it also honesty has different context as you age, as you go through the process. Like most seven-year-old is honest as as they come, but at some point he's going to realise that's not in his best interest, nor the family sometimes. And likewise with teenagers, my daughter is learning she's best not to tell us the real honest truth about what she's getting up to on a weekend because it doesn't benefit anyone, we'd rather not know sometimes. So it's the same, and if you drag that context and go, it's exact the same in a sports team or any sort of team, in fact, that that plugging a word on the wall is hard to stick to. Yeah, it's it's hypocrisy, really, and it's a changing dynamic that you're working with.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

But I just less is best so you don't need to do it all. You just don't. I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Well, since you're talking about these modern coaches being a little bit different, mate, one aspect of modern coaching which is changing is sort of the way that they're coaching, not just like it's changing from, let's say, an authoritarian sort of hard discipline style to a more open. Do you think that sort of confrontational side of coaching is disappearing with modern coaches and is it needed?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Look, I uh like I said before, I think not everything's better today and not everything's bad yesterday. So I think there's there's always got to be there's gotta always be an acceptance that there are things all generations can learn and generations should respond to. So I don't like to throw everyone into the one bucket, but we tend to do that, and certainly conversations like that. But there's a time and place for everything, and there's gotta be an acceptance that you know that it's okay to be candid to people, and it's not everyone gets a trophy. There's a time and a place. Someone could argue that early generations, my generations, we were probably attended over the top that way. But it's not all bad either. You know, it's not all bad. There's a time and a place for everything. And my issue's always been with coaches if you do it too often, what happens when it doesn't work? So it's got to be selective, and there's got to be logic behind it. But we can't just let the players think they know. I mean, if I serve an old quote, and this is where the job of a coach and a player is challenging. And it's still an old quote. If I think it was I think it was Henry Ford that said it, if you ask them what they wanted, they just want a faster horse. People don't know, they only know what they know. You as the leader, you've got to provide the knowledge, some of the knowledge. You've got to use their acumen, yes, but you've got to show the direction. And sometimes a forceful hand's needed. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's a carrot. But it's knowing when to use that. But if you're not clear in what you're doing, and you're not clear on your destination, man, you could finish up anyway.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yep. I heard a lovely quote around that just the other day. It said, uh, if you don't know where you're going, everything's an opportunity, which sends you off in all sorts of different directions.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

100%. So you know, it's and I keep coming back to that you know, not everyone's the same. And understanding people is important. We're in a people's business as I keep alluding to. And so I don't think you can be generic with the way you you teach people either.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

You can't be.

From Ideals To Realism In Wales

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Don't be generic. It can't be just one size fit. You can't be. So therefore, the question you asked me earlier was, you know, the way they coach today. I don't think it can be generic. You know, that can you can be hard on certain people, or you can be uh a little soft on certain people that need it and uplifting, or it might be done in the privacy of a room rather than a public forum. So sometimes you've got to be very selective. Or if you're trying to make a statement, I mean I can I can say this, I coached Jerry Commons. I know, you know, I really love coaching J C, but um at a time where J C didn't play well and the team wasn't playing well, and I went to JC's house and I said, JC, you need to take one for the team tomorrow. Um, and he said, What? I said, You're not playing well, but I'm gonna go real heavy on that. I said, Can you handle that? And he said, Why me? And I said, Because you're the big dog. I said, I need to get the big dog. So, you gonna take one for the team or not? And I wouldn't have done it if he he said no. I wouldn't have done it. Uh he was a proud man, and I would have done it a different way. But I knew he always wanted to be that person, like he wanted to be that. So I said, mate, are you prepared to take one for the team? He said yes. So I really had a crack at him, but it was let's call rehearsed, but it was a crack. I'd like to think that it resonated because it was in front of the group, but it was to the big dog. And what sort of thing were you talking just out of interest? Like I was about the way he played, and you know, like it was a largely contact area and stuff like that. It was specific about the game, and it was specific about what we stood for, but we weren't doing it. So I I had to give it a target, I had to make it meaningful, but I couldn't I couldn't pick on the winger who was probably the guiltiest party, but I couldn't do that. It was it was a cheap target. I had to go to the top, the big dog. I had to resonate, but it had to make a statement. So you can be clever, can't you? You can you can be clever doing it, but it's understand, trying to understand the pe person, the athlete, both in their private life, what you can take them to, how you can take them to. Because at the end of the day, they want to be the best they can be, and you want to be. So how do we get there? He needs his teammates to be the best they can be. So if that rattles everyone's cage, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Love it. And what why why because it's a lovely element to that where you physically went around to his house, that just adds that little bit like that shows a lot of care. Like if you're turning up traveling half an hour to get someone's house to tell them what's going to happen in the meeting tomorrow and ask permission, that's that's a massive sign of respect from his end, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah, well, I might have to say, but you don't because out of respect. I don't think I've ever said that publicly to anyone. That's not something I'll tell people, and I can say it now. JC Sav is no longer with us. It's not. You know, I was I was affected by that loss because he was a wonderful guy, had a really big heart. Caused me some issues, but he had a really big heart, made a real soft spot for him. But I'm just giving that as an example. That's where you can be smart. And I'd like to think, and you you can pick your targets and you can make a statement that hits the right target, but you've got to be prepared to do it. You've got to get someone who's prepared to do it. And he took it.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

He was great. Yeah. He would have he would have taken a well for sure. For absolute sure. I I've I thought you were going to talk about some of his off-field antics. No, uh a couple of too many beers.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

But I wouldn't I'd never I'd never do that. I I do it in this because I think that people didn't understand that about him. He took, you know, like and he trained the house down later, and you know, he set the standard because and that's what I wanted off him. That's what I needed off him. And he helped me. So it's there's little things that you can do to get your message across in a variety of ways. It's not always about yelling and screaming, it's all about that.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

If we're talking about yelling and screaming, Scott, and we're talking about your career, mate. You have had just when I look back through your journey, like you've been, there's been sacking caretaker roles, re-rebuilt programs. It just seems like you love the challenge of difficult things to walk into. Is that is that something you've really chased in your career? Uh, I remember you've talked earlier about your you need a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Is it well it's it's funny you say that, mate, because I you know it's probably like if you go back to how you grew up, you know, you grew up, really. I'm a I'm a um blue-collar boy, real blue-collar boy in a white-collar game in Australia, really. I mean, that's it. You know, I turned from I played all my rugby out at Western Sydney. I I probably got that the two chips on my shoulder shoulder when it comes to, you know, uh my background and rugby. Um and so I I played rugby league and rugby as a as a kid, and it was probably slightly better at rugby league when I was playing. But I was the first in my family to get on a plane by rugby, and I saw the world in rugby, and I got beside it with the ability to see the world. But if you're going back to the job, I don't want a job or what a challenge. I want to get up in the morning and feel like I'm doing something, making a difference. I think no job is beneath me. I could go out and uh sweep the streets. I'd take pride in sweeping the streets. So that's a job. For me to do this, I want to wake up in the morning and make a difference. You never trust a man who's liked by everyone. When you get in positions of power, you're not going to be liked by everyone. You're not going to be. You've got to be willing to understand what it is you're trying to achieve. And I've been fortunate a couple of the jobs that I've really enjoyed. I've had a really good board or CEO who's just gone on and said, I understand what they've given me the mandate, they've given me the destination. They said, go off and do it, you know, and I'd see if we can do it. And you're not there to win a popularity count test, but that keeps me alive. That to me is a drama. That's a drama.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

How do you how do you keep the stress levels? Imagine at some of those levels you're at, the pressure and the and the stress was high, or was that have you just got used to it?

The New Coaching Delta: Teach vs Tactics

SPEAKER_01 43:05

There's no doubt you get the pressure of the role, but I I go back to this. If I'm what I always worked really, really hard, ridiculously hard, and my wife will verify this. You know, I'd go to everything, I'd put in time and effort. It was never a job. It was it was a challenge. And so I think if I deemed failure, if it was deemed a failure, if you will, I could live with that. Because it it to me, it was the effort. As long as I was clear and I was fair. Because I think most of the issues in life, and I say this with to my kids, it's not what's done, it's how it's done is the issue. And so I always was cognizant of the fact that how I did things was important. And I learned that as a young coach, young administrator, whatever you want to call it early, that I probably didn't do things as well as I should have. What I did wasn't probably wrong, but how I did it probably was. So I think if I'm conscious of the fact of how I'm doing it, I don't think I can fail. Conscious of the way you're doing it, you can't fail. Yeah, as in if I'm doing it for the right reasons in the right way, I don't think I can fail. The scoreboard might tell you I fail in my profession, right? But I I had an objective. Did the scoreboard represent it? Do I perceive myself as a failure? No. Did I get the results? No. But was I a failure? No. So that's how so when you're talking about pressure and analyzing the pressure, I'm thinking, I'm doing everything I can here to try to succeed. I'm trying to do everything. So you say, how'd you handle the pressure, or did the pressure mean anything? The pressure was secondary, the pressure I put on myself to do that job. The pressure was secondary to the pressure you put on yourself. So I had to work out. So the scroll board may have told you that I failed, but I didn't see myself as a failure. Put the press enough pressure on me to do it. So I gave it my best shot, largely. So that's how I that's how I woke up every morning. And that's why I went to work seven days a week and did everything I and I'm not sure I got that balance right. But that's how I accepted the roles. What part of the balance did you get wrong? Probably the people that lived with me. What what were you what were you taking home? Grumpy or stressed? No, it wasn't that much. Not you're not there as much as you should be, you know. You're immersed in you're trying to make change. It's a challenging role. It comes with an expectation. Most of my roles did. Um, you know, my wife packed up her bags and travelled me around the world. It sounds all glorious. It is, but she's living in other countries, largely finding new friends or finding new lifestyles. But I'm getting home at 10 o'clock at night, you know, like it's it's not ideal, and is it? It's uh it's not ideal for that relationship. But you know, and sometimes I think to myself, for that day, you might go I spent 10 hours doing that, and I could have spent two hours talking or taking her out for dinner.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

And probably I didn't I didn't get the balance right. What would you suggest to young coach? Because this is not just like this is across the spectrum of coaching. Even coaches at grassroots level has this sort of all-in sort of mentality. It's like it's part of the coaching sort of the bug, isn't it? You're sort of absorbing that. What would you what would you give to advice to coaches to get a better balance or where should they do it? It is difficult because I'd be a hypocrite to be so if your word on the wall was balance, you would be hypocritical in your teams.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

I would say I wouldn't I I'd say be cognizant of it, but at the end of the day, you've got to pick your spouse good to you do. You've got to get someone who's prepared to know what you are and stand for and what you stand for and be supportive of that. It's not easy, but unfortunately, a lot of coaches, and I've come across them, and if I use, let's use Wales, for example, I'll use Wales as an example. They'd come in and look for career advice, and they'd I'd say, Do you want to coach professionally or do you want to coach in Wales? It's just it's a big difference because coaching is a you've got a tow bar attached to your car. So understand that. Now, if if you come back and say to me, I want to coach in Wales, mate, that's fine. There's there's no wrong or right answer, but understand you are limited with choice or opportunity, and your spouse has got to know that too. And what always worries me, and if you want some advice, is the spouse must go with you. Must. You can't. I am you know the old saying, absent makes the heart grow fonder. I don't believe in that. I think it makes the eyes wander. So it doesn't, I don't believe in that. So if you want advice, the spouse comes with you.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

That's pretty that's pretty uh, I think a lot of people will be writing that one down. I don't what is it about whales out of interest? They're not big travelers, right? Like is it as a race in Europe? Not even playing wise, you don't get too many in Japan. Uh, it's it seems like it's they stay local. Is that the history of the place?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, they're very, you know. Yeah, I think you know, history tells you that, that they're very plan-based something. They are that way. They're you know, then hopefully when we first got there, they were very much that way. I think exposure, they got more confident in that next generation. They they started to win things that a few of the players then took off sprouted wings and had opportunities elsewhere. But it's a working man's game. It is very much so. Um, and you know, people get defined largely by where their upbringing occurs. I think it they've started to um sprout wings, and it's good to see because they are, I think, of the Celtic nations, the most naturally talented rugby players, the most naturally talented, because they're very, very skillful naturally. I think it's part of their DNA as a young um young athlete, and their core skills are very good.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Yeah, yeah, it's it's cool to see that that evolution is coming. Well, what and and when we're talking about evolutions, what is the evolution for your eyes around where coaching is going, particularly, particularly in the sport, but maybe maybe across all facets with changing societies and things. Where are we going as a group? What's important and where to for coaching?

Coach Education And Running A Team

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Well, there's understanding the athlete hasn't changed. So the principles haven't changed, the athlete may have changed, and the off-field stuff probably has changed as well. How we view sport, the relationship with the fan engagement and the like has changed. There's little doubt that that has. So there's an acceptance and an understanding that the world around us has changed. There is. But the core of coaching principle hasn't. It's knowing the athlete, you know, like one of the things I challenge the young coaches that I work with a little bit is I asked them, give me a word. I say there's one word that I see as a red flag for all young coaches. I said, Do you want to hazard a guess what that word is? Um and I said, it doesn't mean you don't do it. It means it's a red flag that you need to be on top of it. And we flirt around, it's a pretty um nebulous question, really. But I said, look, the word that is a red flag for me is new. I said, anything new is a red flag. And I say that, I go, okay, a new haircut, a new car, a new girlfriend, a new agent, a new, a new seat. So we're talking about the athlete there. Something's changed within that athlete. It's a red flag. Just find out what it is. It may be nothing. Then if you talk about the coaching, then we talk about coaching, a new drill, a new, and when we talk, well, you know, the SNC guy walks in and says, We should do wrestling. We've got to do wrestling, we've got to do this, you know. And you sit there and go, okay, it's new. Where are we starting at? What we're doing. So I bring in, oh, this bloke does this and this and this. That guy's probably been doing it for 10 years. But we're starting at base camp, but you're gonna start it 10 years. Like, it's new. So anytime there's it's new, anything new, so how do you what helps you do this from my perspective? I go around to a few places, I look at the new performances center that around the world. I have a look at them. I mean, they're all wonderful, have really, really good facilities, the ones I see. What disappoints me though is they miss out on what I still think are key components for the coach, irrespective of the era. And a little things for me, right? I always believe the coach should have visibility in his office for the car park. Now, that that that's one thing. Now, the reason I say that, athletes, humans, are predictable. So, therefore, the coach is usually first in, have a cup of coffee, drink it in, and you're saying, well, Ben Herring's due to arrive here. Like, he's just due to arrive. Uh, yeah, he's on time. I can see that, okay, fine, I'm on top of that. Post-training, a conversation might be occurring in the car park, which often does. You sit there and knock and go, he's talking to him. Wonder why. Little things that occur that you sit there and go. So it gets you on top of the new, what I call the new that you're less surprised by certain things. And then if you fast track that as another example, you look, and I call it my hairdresser theory, and it's a hairdresser theory, isn't that big? I won't be sexist, but it's the reason both men and women talk as they talk when they're getting their hair cut. They talk. And they talk all personal stuff usually. And I'm as probably as guilty as anybody. And they do it because you got your guard down and you let people touch your body, which opens your mouth. That's what happens. Now, if you why why use that as an example, the physio then becomes really important to me because he touches or she touches the athlete, and therefore, having access to the physio room as a coach and going down there a fair bit, you learn a lot. And therefore, the person you put on in that position, their personality is for me primary to their skill. Their personality is important because handling the information is important. So these are little things that I say for the young coaches that are not coaching, they're just about humans and understanding the reaction and interaction with humans. And putting yourself in a position to not be blindsided, it doesn't say you won't be blindsided. It just gives you the best chance to see or hear anything new. Love that.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Do you think there's something in that hairdresser theory about that physical touch, which is something which is a skill to learn? Is that is that why handshakes, knuckle pumps, all that stuff is an important part of it of a team culture?

SPEAKER_01 55:22

But it's human reaction. As long as it's consistent, you look for consistency of behavior, don't you? You're knowing what people do. And if it is inconsistent, I go back to it's you, then we have something that needs to be explained to you. You've got to be on top of things like that. So this is where the the dynamics of court culture, if you will, is important. But you've got to see it. You've got to see it in its natural form. You can't see it in a forced form of honesty. We're gonna talk about it there. It's gotta be natural.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

And if you can't see it, you're blinded.

Individualized Mentors And Growth

SPEAKER_01 56:11

So these are well, when you talk about the two young coaches today, these are the things that I feel that they they can benefit from. They don't have that and you don't have to be an extrovert. All these personality traits, introverts can be really good coaches. They can be. Introverts probably see more. But there's little trips that you do. If you have a conversation at a lunch or you see a kid reading a book, I used to text my wife saying, Can you buy this book? Or can you take this show at home? Can you do something? Just give me something else to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

You can have a conversation with them about something that is natural to them. Not natural to you, natural to them. Because whether we like it or not, we're getting older. And you're coaching people that are younger than you. And they've got plenty, you know, relationships of both parties learning, you know, like we're going through transformational change with technology today, whether it's cryptocurrencies, whether it's AI and all this, this generation can teach you plenty too. But you can't learn unless you're having dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

I mean, I reckon this is a really good point, is to have a look at what what's natural to your players. And you talked about things like the music, the TV, the books that you're reading. But in order to connect with those things, to go home and record the right TV shows to watch or the books ordering, you've got to keep your eyes open in the first place when you're walking around your environments, don't you? You can't just be focused in on the computer, which is your strength as a modern coach. Keep your eyes open and just observe. Would you say getting in early sometimes to your sessions and just watching people roll in is absolute gold? Is that why the car park viewing is absolute gold? You sit there and watch them roll in, see those interactions, it gives you so much, and you become almost like a detective just working things out.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

You just work without him knowing that you're working it. You see, once again, Ben Heron coming in 100 miles an hour because he's running late. You know, for him, he's running late. He comes in and go, right, okay. And let me just watch this one here. So, you know, you go into a meeting room and people are predictable. They usually sit in similar spots next to similar people. You start, you let someone else present, and you're not really looking at the presenter, you're looking at the room, what's happening in the room as in the dynamics, has it changed? Is there something there?

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Like, but yeah, because that I keep calling that, we're we're catching humans, diverse personalities, diverse cultures. Well, even bring it back to your parenting stuff, is like you certainly know when your teenagers have done something awry the night before, by the way, they sheepily walk into breakfast the next day or brunch as it might be, you go, right, something's amiss here. Well, let's get to the bottom of this one.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Well, they and that's but now you multiply that by 20, which is usually the people that you got around you, you know, like like I said, that we including staff and and that, all wanting to get better. So you have a big once you go into those positions, you have a responsibility. They may not like you. It's not about liking, but if they respect you and understand you're consistent, you stand a chance of making them.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Yeah, outstanding. Now, Scott, it's it's got to that our market flies by. And I've just got one more question for you. And April. It's a question we just asked to finish up because it draw and it draws a little bit of um of interest um from a lot of people. It's what's one thing that you believe about culture or leadership, in fact, that you you believe in that you reckon some of your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

I think we've already just discussed that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

I all like now, only because I don't understand it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

So, and I'm not saying my peer all my peers would disagree with, but everywhere I go, I see it. So I sit there and go, Am I the only pastor thinking this? So probably that, I think, uh, because I haven't seen too many places without it, you know, and so I get so it's probably that, mate. And they'll probably all if they see or watch this, they'll tell me I'm talking shit. But um yeah, I'll try that's probably one, mate. That's probably it.

Parenting Parallels And Perspective

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

I think I think that's probably it. Mate, that that's all that brings us to the end, mate. And what I like to do is I like to just I just like to reflect to my three takeaways, mate, that I I got from this conversation, if I may. And they are these, mate. Number one, I just loved and I'm completely on board with you about getting rid of rid of those buzzwords. Um, because buzzwords such as honesty, as we discussed, is very hard to live up to consistently. And if you can't do it consistently, it breeds hypocrisy, and that is the biggest trouble in an environment when one thing's said and other things are being done. Number two is I love this phrase around create the language you want, and it's a great start point in a culture to define the terminology, explain the meaning, and understand what the words mean, and everybody speaks the same thing. I think it's a wonderful way to start when you come into an environment, is to make sure everyone's on the same starting point. That's what starts societies and cultures as a language, so getting your own one, so it's what you do, is massive. Number three, which I thought was absolutely awesome, was understanding the generational differences of coaches. You mentioned in the past generations where teaching experience was high and perhaps the rugby experience not as much. Whereas in today's modern coach, perhaps the teaching element is lower, but the rugby IQ is high. You referenced, don't hide behind your strength. Many modern coaches hide behind computers as a default pattern. Whereas what they really need to grow on is the other side, that teaching side, which is perhaps the strength of the generation gone past. And I think you mentioned about just being aware of that is a great start point to actually build on to become the best coach you can possibly be. Scott Johnson, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

Good luck with it all. I'll be watching and listening with interest.