Mark Jones on Leadership : Why Coaches Fail When Players Don’t Buy In.

What makes a team’s culture visible when the pressure is highest? We sit down with Ospreys head coach Mark Jones to unpack the daily habits, leadership handoffs, and language choices that turn values into actions. From Neath’s valley steel to Swansea’s coastal ease, Mark traces how a region’s identity shapes a squad’s edge—and why the first job of a head coach is to confirm the group still believes in the same things you do.

Mark takes us inside the warm-up zone where music, micro-chats, and body language reveal readiness long before kickoff. He outlines how to spot “cultural architects,” the teammates who own energy, detail, or joy, and explains why stepping back can be the best leadership move. Drawing from his time with the Crusaders, he shows how player-led meetings deepen buy-in and how a single linguistic shift—from “don’t” to do—can sharpen focus and speed. You’ll hear practical examples, from tailoring defensive roles to preserving a team’s chop-and-jackal identity, that any coach can apply tomorrow.

The conversation turns honest about setbacks. Mark shares tough lessons from Rotherham on due diligence, managing up, and refusing to throw good people under the bus. He connects coaching and parenting, admitting where he’s slipped and how family grounding improved his leadership. And he speaks openly about Welsh rugby’s uncertain future—how the absence of a clear plan strains everyone, yet has pulled the Ospreys’ players, staff, and supporters closer together. His parting challenge to coaches: trade vanity metrics for team outcomes. Know your role, do your role, and let the right voices lead at the right time.

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Transcript

Setting The Stakes: Vision And Buy-In

SPEAKER_00 1:06

It's all very well having a vision yourself as the head coach, but if if your staff and your players don't share that vision, well you're you're you're running alone, aren't you? So it's not just the coach who's a psychopath, it's the players are psychopaths as well. They have a they're analyzing and watch it. So are you keeping yourself relevant or are you just happy to, you know, fall away and not keep up? I didn't want to make that call to save my own bacon. I was making a decision on my own career, but I wasn't gonna chuck the other guy under the bus. You know, it wasn't the right thing to do. I think people are losing the connection between the sport and the country. This is a big this is a big crossroads in in the country, I think. Not just the team. I think the country's gotta, you know, really come together on this.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Mark Jones. Mark is currently head coach of the Ospreys in Wales. As a player, Mark amassed over 150 games for Leilani and Scarletton, earned 47 caps for Wales. He started his coaching professionally 16 years ago at Scarleton, quickly moved into the Welsh national side. He then began a coaching journey with a huge variety of teams all over the world. Rotherham in the UK, RCG, Namibia, the Crusaders in Canterbury and New Zealand, Worcester, his rugby CV as a full one. And now back in Wales, where 2026 has been a volatile year for Welsh rugby and the coaches and their teams in it. Joining us from Ospreys, Mark, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Thanks, Ben. It's an absolute uh pleasure, pleasure to be here, mate. Very humbling because I know we've had on the pod before, and uh yeah, I'm delighted to be with you and your listeners.

Defining Culture In Daily Behaviors

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Mate, well, what a pleasure. And uh, we were just uh chatting off air about it. It's been a it's been a grim year for for Wales, weather-wise, before we get into anything else, mate. Like it's not a sunny day inside.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah, it's been a poor uh start to 2026 from a weather perspective. That's if the weather's personifying probably the state of rugby at the moment, if I'm honest with you. It's uh it's one day after another of misery and rain. So uh yeah, but it's it's we've had a couple of dry days back to back. So yeah, we're looking up, looking up, things are looking up, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Well, I love it, mate. Well, we'll get started with this question, Janet. Is how do you define culture?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah. Um I think probably um culture is what your values and behaviors are on a day-to-day basis, and you just see them in and around your environment. So the people you work with, your staff, your players. I think culture is seeing all of the things that you value as a group, demonstrating themselves over and over again, uh, whether that's your effort stuff on the field, or the way the boys thank the dinner ladies for the food or clean their plates up, um, you know, how the boys travel on the way on the bus in the airports, um, you know, and I think probably it hits on more when people outside your environment comment on the things that they don't know are your values. And I think when I look at the Osprey culture, which has been the culture's was the same 25 years ago. Uh I'm we've done a bit of work this year around what is an osprey and their culture, and everybody we bring in, you know, they're just talking around what our group does now, which I think is a huge credit to the organization really for keeping those values in the building.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Keep the values in the building. Good statement. Well, I've got a question I've got a question for you, Mark, around you you talked about culture is the same as it was 25 years ago. Is there a need to keep that, or is it an evolving sort of thing that you actually probably need to change a little bit?

Ospreys’ DNA: Neath And Swansea Roots

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah, I think, like I said, I mentioned in the last answer, didn't I? We we've been doing a bit of exploring this year around the Ospreys DNA. You know, what's it built on? Because it the Ospreys itself is 25 years old, 24 years old. So, but the teams that, you know, formed the Ospreys, which was formerly Swansea and Neath coming together, you know, they've been around for hundreds of years. So you had two teams coming together there initially, and the values from those two teams were very different. Swansea was uh is uh a big city, you know, um it's uh coastal. You've got a type of individual there that come from the surrounding areas. It's it's industrial in some areas, but it's very rural in others, from the Gower, etc. And then you've got Neath, which is uh more of a valley local tight community, very industrious, coal mining sort of background. And the boys come in the building who are grown up in those areas, it's very evident that they come from where they come from, you know. Uh and I think that's what's evident now. So the same people that were around in 203 when they when they formed those two teams, uh you've got the same characters, same traits, the families that support them are the same, you know. It's it's it is literally, you know, um like a time warp, really. You know, you're just seeing it 25 years later. And I'm just you know, I'm just glad that I'm in in this group. They're a special group. It's quite a privilege, really, to come in there and and share uh being part of it. Because I, as you said at the start, I was down the road in Flatley for 17 years of my career playing and coaching, uh working against these guys. You know, to come into your biggest rivals uh building and work with them and see how it how it operates. It's no surprise they, you know, they were as good as they were.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

That that's a fascinating one. You're almost an outsider, but because you played against them so much, you feel like you know how they tick.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah, they they were our well, they were our biggest rivals as a player and as a coach. And, you know, I I see the Scarlets as our biggest rivals now, sitting in the other building looking back the other way. But I, you know, as much as they were our biggest rivals, it was I always had an awful lot of respect for them. I always respected them more probably than the other teams and regions we played against. And I think it was probably because I did, you know, they did ooze, ooze the ooze the culture that that is now, you know, the hard work, the uh the care for each other, the effort stuff. They they were obviously talented. That was, you know, that was obvious with the players they had, the recruitment that they made. But, you know, they were very physical. You could see they were a tight bunch of boys, and it just it eased through. I was lucky, I was in a team that had a lot of those things as well. Uh but the you know, you probably looked across there and thought, oh, they're probably a match for us around a lot of those things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

And does it change? Like you talked about like just talking about Neath and this valley and this local and this coal mining, but is society changing in that right regard? Like, is is coal mining still a big thing? Is it is it still a choice, or just the people coming through, like the young athletes, are they working in the in the mines, that type of thing?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And if not, it's no look, there's a couple of collieries that are that are that are above ground, you know, that are operating, but no, look, the boys are not uh they're not knocking off and popping down the shaft for a couple hours over time, you know. That's that's that's absolutely not what's going on. But I think certainly at this moment in time, it is changing in answer to your question. But I think what is around at the moment, you've still got grandparents and parents that are still probably have worked in that industry, so you've constantly got that connection with, you know, hey, your grandfather was getting up at six, mate, and dropping down there for 12 hours, and you know, don't be moaning about how stiff you are when you come home at training at three o'clock, you know. It's like you've still got those little reminders, I think, around the rural environments. And it's humbling, you know, when you see the people walking around in our area and the, you know, the characters that have come through those industries, and then you see their sons and grandsons playing the game, you can see why their traits, their competitive edge, you know, their toughness. You can just see you don't survive working in that industry, uh, farming or, like you said, the collieries, etc., unless you've got a bit of a steel edge to you. So you can see it. But it's also tempered with some of the the guys from the swam the city, from Swansea, you know, different characters, a lot more light-hearted, you know, grown up at the beach, you know, like we've got such a we've got such a sort of guys that that represent our region. It's um yeah, it's really colourful. It's uh it's good. Nice, it's nice to see the mix coming together, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

That's cool. And then do you feel like you have a duty as as the head coach of the team for that region to sort of um to that generation gone, to keep preserving some of the stuff?

Rivalries, Respect, And Identity

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, I do. I do feel it. It was that one of the reasons why probably I tried to set the rudder really into finding out a little bit more on whether the group valued that anymore, if that makes sense, because it's all very well having a vision yourself as the head coach. But if if your staff and your players don't share that vision, well you're you're you're running alone, aren't you? So we did a little bit of exploring. I used quite a few people in the building to help me with that, who have been at the Ospreys some 25 years, you know. So you've got Duncan Jones was there as a player at the start, and we've got you know, die out team manager has been around it for a long, long time. So you you you do have conversations with those guys and have a few pick a few conversations to find out if you think that this group would still value those things and actually get some up and you know they feel like they want to represent it because ultimately that's what you're doing. You represent you know, the shirt and the team are representing an area, really. That's that's how I see it. It's a geographical area, it's your land, and you know, you're pitting yourself against your bordering rivals, and um there's no doubt the boys are proud of where they've come from and they do know why they are, how they are, they know what their parents have done for them, their grandparents, as I mentioned. They actually understand how hard their friends and family work who are not in the Ospreys, you know, people that go to get up in the morning and just go to work, whatever that is for them. They do feel uh they do feel like legacy is one of our values, um, and they feel like they want to add to the legacy and they want to make sure that the next head coach, well, I want to make sure the next head coach comes through the door, takes a little bit of what we're doing now with him, or her with her, with her. It doesn't have to be everything we do, but I'd like to think, you know, when I look back in however long when I'm not at the Ospreys anymore, that you can see something in a player or or the group and you go, Do you know what we we kept that bit alive or we started that? I think that's the bit that would perhaps live on for forever.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Mate, it's uh really interesting that you talk about that. Does the group still value the values? And and you said you're picking the brains of the people in the room. D are we still representing this area? Are the things, these traits still relevant here? Are we evolving with the times essentially is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

And that's probably a really important question to ask, especially in these semi-turbulent times already, right, where there is a lot of change in the region anyway. There this that sort of questioning is a probably an important one for anyone running a team. Are these still relevant for today?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah. 100%. I I think I think you have to look at that all the time. You have to look at yourself. You know, are you still relevant? Are you keeping yourself relevant or are you just happy to, you know, fall away and not keep up? And I I think that's one of the reasons why I like to stay on the grass in the weeds with the coaches and the players, uh, because I think it keeps me relevant. We had a chat, had a chat with the coaches actually bouncing around here a little bit. But had a we had a catch-up, uh, just we were out coffee somewhere, I think, and just talking around what about our favourite, just asked the boys, the coaches, what's your favourite, what's your favourite part of the week? What what is it that you like? And most of the boys came back saying game day, you know, that's the gate the day they love. And one of them said, What about you? And I said, Oh, it's the warm-ups. And he sort of looked at me like, like, what do you mean it's the warm-up? I said, Oh, it's the warm-ups, because in the warm-ups, you know, we we we try and get the music going in the warm-ups for the boys, and there's somebody in charge of that who's, you know, got a feel for the mood of the day. So you get quite a bit out of the tunes that come on as a coach, you know, you're listening to those thinking, what sort of mood are these guys in today? You know, uh, then the tunes come on and you get a bit of a vibe for that. Some of the conversations you hear the boys having in their twos and threes whilst they're stretching, getting ready to go, it keeps you relevant. You know, you're you're listening about what what they got up to yesterday, what they're planning, you know, who who's who's you know, who's absolutely had a shocker in the change in shed, you know, what whatever it is. And I I just love that bit. That's the bit I'll miss more than anything, I think, is listening to these guys, you know, talking to each other because I think they keep you young. When I started coaching, I was 30, 30 years old, so I was young, you know, I was the same age, I was younger than some of the guys I was coaching, but I'm 46 now, I'm not young anymore now. You know, listening to these guys talking, it keeps you relevant, you know, it keeps you on a level with them, I think. I think it keeps you relevant to them. I think they they can relate to you better if you know how you can relate to them. Um yeah, that's my favourite part of the week. The only trouble is now they didn't know that and they do know, so they could probably be worried about what they're talking about now when they're they're gonna they're gonna button up what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Yeah, and you're like a spy.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

No, I'd never use it against them. Like two ears, one mouth, just try and listen to them.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

That's that's awesome. Staying in the weeds, because a lot of coaches talk about stay, you know, get out of the weeds, but you're you're you're saying stay in it. And you found your happy place in that warm-up. And the music and those conversations in that area keep you relevant. And then you're almost in a lot of ways, it you're living vicariously through the players, aren't you? In in in a lot of ways. And that's keeping you you're either keeping keeping you energized.

Staying Relevant: Warm-Ups And Energy

SPEAKER_00 14:00

100%. Uh there's like they've got 40 guys there on the grass, and there's a good energy in that group, you know. Even if ten of them are at a bad night or they're not enjoying the weather, you can guarantee the other 30 will be making sure that that's, you know, they're knocking that out of them and they're getting the energy up. And you cult, you know, you've got those cultural architects, haven't you, around the guys who you can see hold the group. Uh, you know, they o they they own the energy, and some don't even know they do it, but they do. And I think watching that work is quite good. Watching it, watching them cultivate the energy and watching them actually go around and pick up the boys. Like your eye is a sharp thing, isn't it? You the players are I'm observing the players all the time, but the players are observing me and they're looking at my energy, and what sort of mood is he in today? You know, uh is you know, how much has the coach got today? And I can see the players working the room, you know, working the room around some guys that are struggling a little bit and getting behind them. It's a nice thing to see, you know. When you see staff and players looking after each other like that, it's a good thing to see. Get those bits right, the rugby's easy.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Oh, you just remind me of a quote. Eddie Jones said that coaches are really like psychopaths, they're sort of looking, analysing, fine, trying. He said it in jest, but you kind of get that you're what you're saying is that you're watching with a really keen eye, like analysing where to go. But what what is when you're looking at those cultural architects, can you just dive into what that actually what you're actually looking for and what that actually means around a person in a group as a cultural architect?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, like the one thing I probably set myself, and I can't say I achieve it every day, but I try to have the most energy in the building. And what I mean by that is I'm bouncing around, you know, the breakfast tables in the morning. If they're having bracki, I'm, you know, I'm in about five conversations at the same time in the office, which I know will do people's heads in. I absolutely know, you know, they're you know, probably the loudest sometimes and talking about something where we should be having a meeting around, you know, the day flow or whatever. But I think I tried to set that standard because I think I can do it consistently and it's something that people can rely on me for. So what you have got then within the group, your cultural architects, you've also got the guys that are into the details. So you know there'll be guys going around in the shed, making sure that the boys have learned their maps and they know their role from line out and scrum. And you know you'll have those guys in there that are going to keep guys honest around their their homework when they go away from the club. And then you'll also have guys that are making sure that we're having some fun, you know, like uh as much as we need to be training hard and but where's the fun? Well, what like you know, this is this is work, but we're where are we smiling? You know, um when are we going out as a group to have a food and coffee? You've got guys that are into that, and we've got a good mix, you know, around around that. And I'm been at the Ospreys for three years now, two as the assistant, and then I've just finished sort of one as a as the head coach. And I feel like now I could probably go to most players and understand what I if I needed to get something out of the group who I could go to to help, you know, sort of ignite that. Um on the days where I've not got as much energy, I've had a couple of players pull me pull me up, you know. I've had young Dan Edwards, you know, gave me a bit of feedback out in South Africa last year saying, Hey coach, you you're like, I, you know, I use you for my energy and you just feel like you're not, you know, you're not there at the moment, you know. Is everything all right? You know? So it was like it was nice to see that the player was, you know, not looking out for his teammate as well. He'd noticed a little bit of a change in me. It was probably fair feedback. I had a bit going on at the time, you know, around work and everything. And it was just, you know, it was just good to see that it was a bit of a reminder to me that everybody's watching. It's not just like Eddie said, it's not just the coach who's a psychopath, it's the players are psychopaths as well. They they're analysing and watching. And yeah, I think that was a good reminder for me there around, you know, making sure my I was doing my bit as well, not just relying on those players I mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, man, they're like you having the most energy in the building. A lot of people say that the culture is a reflection of the head coach's personality, right? So you have a real effect on the team, like you said, that players are watching. If you're a certain way, that that'll be the watered-down effect, right? The people underneath that are taking some of the instruction will be like children watching their parents, hey, like just mirroring the all the little things, nuances you do, not necessarily just the things you say, your body language, your reactions, your tone, all that stuff is being picked up, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

100%. And I I think that's the bit um 16 years on from the first day I coached to when I coach tomorrow, you know, I was very much uh detail-driven, tech tactical and technical when I started coaching because I felt like I had to earn the respect of my fellow teammates who were s were my teammates yesterday, but now they're my the coaches, they're the players I coach now, and I needed to sort of prove my worth to them because they I hadn't earned any sort of well, whatever respect, if any, I'd earned as the player, I had zero as the coach, you know. I that was that was about to start that journey. But I know tomorrow the first thing I gotta do when I go for the building is make sure the relationship is good with the people that I'm working with. That's the first thing. It's not it's not about technically and tactically, it's like start the day off on, well, are we starting off on a good day here as two humans here before we start getting into work, you know? And I think that's the bit I've probably um I haven't changed, you know, I haven't flipped from one to the other. I just understand there's an order, and that's the that's the bit you've got to start with is it's the human element. And if you get that bit right, I've found over time it's you have much better relationships with players and staff, you know. I think you create a more trustworthy and um and safe environment, you know, for people to to say how they feel and and be really honest with you both ways.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Did you have a few uh did you have a couple of aha moments? Did you have any sort of mistakes which sort of you went, oh gee, I gotta I've got that wrong, I need to just flick on that.

Cultural Architects And Shared Ownership

SPEAKER_00 20:32

I think think I pro well, I think I probably most definitely did. I think it's just some probably didn't share it with me. Some have probably just walked away and gone, well, you know, that was horrendous how you've just dealt with me there, but I'm too scared to tell you that, you know, that it was. But I I don't look, I don't You'd have to ask the players, wouldn't you, I guess, on how how they would rate myself doing that. I I don't think I ever I've ever intentionally disrespected anybody, tried to use my position as the coach as some sort of position of power and tried to force my view on somebody. And like I don't think that's ever been in my in my way, you know, in my in my instincts. But I'm sure there were times where I've overpowered a conversation or I've driven the narrative when really I should have been listening to the player and finding out what where they saw it coming from. I have no doubt I would have made those those mistakes for sure. You meet up with a player, but you've got to decide on who's leading the conversation sometimes, haven't you? And sometimes you're better off not leading it. You know, you'll learn more by not leading it. And I think that's probably the bit I've learned, and I'm still learning. I certainly haven't finished journey, but I think it's more important as the head coach as well, because you do have to recontract people, you do have to let people go, you have to select people, and you have you have the final say where I know as the assistant coach, you can definitely be a little bit more of the good cop if that space is there. But I also know as an assistant coach, sometimes you have to come in a bit harder as well, because maybe the head coach isn't quite as tough as some other head coaches are, because I'd be working for different types of coaches, you know, that would that that approach difficult conversations in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Well, I think that's a really important pie piece, mate. Like you just said, learn more from not leading things all the time. And that's probably a big one for head coaches to just see the value in, right? Like sometimes it's better to let a player lead things. Do you have any sort of specific examples for coaches where that that could actually, you know, that you they could put in place around that? Like when's the time that you would potentially not want to lead?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah. I think um if I can give an example, like the Crusaders would have been the best example, I would say, of a coaching group understanding when you're handing over to the team and the drivers of the team around you know, it could be could be technical and tactical, but it could be it could be uh your mindset for the week, it could be the the energy of the group that week. How do we, you know, how do we stay relaxed this week? You know, it's a big, it's a semi-final, it's a final, actually. We our biggest challenge this week is staying relaxed. It's uh it's not getting ourselves up for the game. You can't get up for a final, we wouldn't be here. So I think how that happens is all could be done in all different ways, but I think I I was so impressed with how uh and I apologize for the name dropping, but Richie Muunger, how he took over the the last meeting of the week before we trained, you know, our competing day. He got at the front of the room basically, and he would always start with something humorous or funny, and I'm pretty sure it was intentional. I I don't think he was doing it by accident. I know he was sort of warming them up a little bit, I think, before he came in with the you know, the critical outcomes of the session. But how how we used to work the boys there and how the coaches were happy to let Richie get in there and they they knew that whatever they were going to say, Richie was gonna do it so much better, and the group were gonna connect with it so much better. So, you know, that's five or six years ago now. But I that was a bit that I took, I've taken back from New Zealand back home is once you can trust those leaders. And you know that they'll give the message that ultimately your respect doesn't have to be your message, but you need to be able to look at it and go, yeah, uh that sits within our. That sits within what I would have said, you know. I I wouldn't have necessarily done it that way, but that was a good way of doing it. I think as long as you know those guys are, I think the more you can let them loose on the group, the better. Because on the f they're they're the guys on the field, you know. You're not on the field as the coach, your bit's done, really. As much as I try and send down messages and assistant coaches are trying to get 10,000 messages down, really, it's those leaders talking for 15 seconds in between a scrum and a line out. Whatever's said needs to be heard. And sometimes, as a coach, what you say and what they hear are not the same thing. You think they are, but they're not. And I think players have got a good feel for what the group need to hear because they're ultimately in the in the group. They're used to looking back at us.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

I love that, mate. Like, once you trust the leaders to give the message, you can let them loose on a group. I I reckon there's also a little um a culpable to that is like you can actually see how clear your comms have been to that sort of individual, all the way up to that, right? Like when you sit and listen to someone speak back what you've been talking about a week and delivering what you hope is the same as you, you can actually see how good your comms have been to to that guy, that leader in the group. If it's if it's completely different, it's there's probably a bit of awareness and work to do on your relationship and trust building, right?

When Coaches Shouldn’t Lead

SPEAKER_00 25:16

100%. And I, you know, switching over to the you know to the head coach role, you know, I'm building uh like I'm basically renegotiating the contract with the assistant coaches because I was, you know, they're they're equal, if you like. If you want to think of it as a hierarchy, as a head coach, assistant coach. I don't view it like a hierarchy. I you know, I I I see us co-coaching, I see us working together, you know, very much as a team. But when you go from you know having the same amount of say on selection to ultimately probably having the the final say, if there is a um, you know, a bit of a debate around who should play, that relationship is different. And, you know, you can talk to each other differently when you're negotiating with the head coach, but when you're the head coach with the assistant coach, it is a different relationship. They're obviously respectful of you know what they're saying, and I'm trying to be respectful the other way. And I think there is a it is it has been an interesting journey for me, and I know I've I've got a clear view on what I think, you know, it should look like in my own area, whether it's the attack coach or the defence coach. But I also have to understand as the head coach, you're no longer doing those roles, you're no longer leading on those areas, you know, you are facilitating them now, and you have to respect what that person's doing because the best coaches that have coached me have made it clear what my d role is and my job description is, but they've also given me the autonomy to do it in my own way. So and I felt that's got the best out of me. You know, I I wouldn't like to be micromanaged, and I know I will have definitely had times where I've stepped into that space and you know, you know, maybe maybe cut across a coach maybe when a player asks a question or or an answer to the question which really I should have left for the assistant. Does that make sense? Because you're used to doing it as the as the lead coach, as the assistant. So I think I've you know targeted that really, as like you said, knowing when to lead and when to listen, you know, that's the that's probably the bit that I'm getting better at all the time. I think the role clarity is really a good one.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Now, mate, you just talked about an interesting journey. I think we'll jump straight to the crusaders journey, mate, because that is interesting. I think a lot of people would be intrigued at that little segue in your in your coaching career. Like you went to New Zealand to coach with the Crusaders, and how did it come about and what did you pull out from that environment? So it's a wonderful opportunity, and it's particularly coming from the northern hemisphere to go to the Antipodean point of the world and coach there. Tell us a little bit about that journey.

Crusaders Lessons: Player-Led Delivery

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, I I think it was a it was a quite a shock to a lot of people, really, I think, because I was I'd taken you know what would be perceived as a backward step, really. I went from being a you know a top-level professional coach as an assistant coach uh into a head coach of a semi-professional environment, but I was responsible for the for running the the Northern Academy in RGC as part of the WIU. So um, but I took that role uh on purpose really, because I think going from a player to a coach overnight, which is what I did, I, you know, I retired at 29 through injury, and then I was asked by the current head coach there, Nigel Davis, what I'd be interested in going into his coaching team. I hadn't really, you know, I hadn't really earned my stripes, you know, I hadn't gone through coaching at lower level. I'd done some coaching with the local team, but I hadn't progressed through an academy because, you know, or into a semi-professional team, into becoming uh, you know, an under-twenties national coach or anything like that. You know, you're perceived as jobs for the boys. He's gone from playing to coaching, or he's jumped over all these guys that have put all this work in. And so I felt like I would be a better coach if I kind of tried to reverse engineer the bits I'd missed. So I thought, okay, well, you don't really fancy moving, you know, to be an assistant coach in England anywhere at this moment in time. It's not fitting for you, you know, in terms of your family commitments, etc. So, well, let's let's use this time to do the bit that I've, you know, been accused of hurdling, you know, uh going from a player to coach. So I found it hugely beneficial. Uh, firstly in Rotherham and then in the RGC. That that experience of coaching at that level was was gold, you know, around actually pulling apart, you know, what are you as a coach? Who are you? How do you want to coach? How do you want people to talk about you? What do you want your teams to look like? What do you want people to say about your teams? You know, I had a chance to, albeit the coaches of the or the owners of Rotherham and probably not so much RGC, because that was a very much a developmental area. They wouldn't have liked me playing around with my own, you know, coaching style and with a team, because obviously they wanted us to win every week. I was I was using it as a journey for myself as much as trying to win. Of course you're trying to win with a team, you you know, absolutely no doubt about that. But I was finding how I was gonna actually have some longevity in the game. And it w I knew it would help me going back into an assistant coach role to be in the shoes of the guy you're working for and actually have a have a feel for what the challenges were for him. You know, what does you know, what pressures does he get from above and behind? And rather than thinking, well, this guy's not doing much, you know, I'm doing all the attack and all the field sessions. What's what's he's just speaking to the media, you know, when actually you get a bit of a feel for all the stuff you deal with as a head coach, dealing with players' problems, their family's problems, you know, cats dying, you know, I had all sorts in Rotherham of why a player was struggling, you know, guys from overseas, not settling in. The owner's the owner's giving him a flat but didn't furnish it, you know, all this stuff where you're just going, you know, this is just, I didn't even know this stuff happened, you know. So it was such a good experience. So I know, you know, I know you're thinking, what's this got to do with the Crusaders? But um I think that was the shock for people was how has he ended up jumping from that sort of developmental role into the Crusaders? And I asked the same question, if I'm honest with Scott, you know, once I got my feet under the table in New Zealand and spent a bit of time with Scott. Just said, mate, what was it, you know, what what was it that sort of why why me? Because you could have probably gone and got any coach that you wanted to, really, you know. I know you had Ronan there before and he he was moving on, but there was a couple of things he said. He liked, he wanted a northern hemisphere set of eyes on his group. He wanted to see uh what our views on the game were, and he knew that I'd had worked internationally. Uh, you know, I'd been five years with the Scarlets and I'd done uh a season with Wales when you know the year we won the Six Nations in 2013, I think it was. So I'd had it wasn't like I came from, you know, uh Division IV rugby. I'd been coaching at a good level, the top level, but I had taken a couple of steps back, you know, um, and it was interesting. And he said, We've got a big shift this year in our squad. We are gonna be letting go some some big players, you know. Matt Todd, I think, was one, I think Ryan Crotty was another. Um, I think Geordie Taufu was another. And he said, We're gonna be bringing some young guys through. We're not going to recruit any guys from, you know, they're gonna be out of the academy, they're gonna come through Canterbury. And I want somebody that knows how to deal with those guys, but I also need somebody to deal with Sammy Whitelock and Luke Romano and these guys. He he he looked at my journey and and went, okay, he's taking all the boxes that I want for this role. And that's when I looked at the Crusaders and went, oh, okay, now I can see why you guys are who you are. When you're looking at when you're as strategic as that around who you're recruiting and joining up those dots, that spoke volumes really around, you know, they didn't just go, oh, we've lost Rog and Andrew Goodman's taking that role on, and we need a defense coach. Like he, you know, they were looking at it 360, absolutely 360, around who they needed. And luckily for me, they they felt I could do that job, and I loved it. It was a it was a brilliant experience.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

What'd you take back? What do you what what's the what what's one big thing you brought back with you and as part of your coaching now?

The Power Of Language: Say What To Do

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Uh I think language, I think language is the big thing I brought back with me and the and the power of it. And again, I uh you know I'll again I'll use an example if I can around when I when I got there, obviously the first thing I wanted to do was try to understand before being understood. So Andrew Goodman had already run one of the best defences in the league, if not the best defence. So you're going into his boots and you're thinking, okay, well, we don't need to change a lot here, but what was it that was the fundamentals of it? Did a bit of digging around, well, what do you want this defence to look like moving forward? You know, do you want to change it? Do you want to just keep working with the same defence but trying to improve it? Um, etc. Scott was, you know, Scott goes, Oh, good question. Uh I'll go away and I'm gonna speak to the leaders and come back to you. So it wasn't like Scott just made the decision. He went away to his leaders in the group, his cultural architects, and said, Look, what do you want Jonesy to do? You know, and I think the question I asked was, Do you want me to do you want me to have a defence system that everybody has to be upskilled in, or do you want me to coach them what they're great at? You know, if if Luke Romano, for example, was a was a really big up top hitter, he was good at hitting up top, he liked hitting up top, it was what got him excited about defense, or do you want to be a leg chopping Jaclyn team because the Crusaders had been that? And he he came back and said, No, they want to keep with a leg chop uh and they want to they want to go for the ground steal. That's what they feel the strength of the team is and they want us to get better at that. So I said, Well, you know, how am I gonna keep Luke Romano and a couple of these guys that like hitting up top happy? And when I spoke to those guys, I just said, Look, mate, you can go up top, but you need to go, you need to dominate. If you go up top and you don't dominate, then I'm gonna have somebody in my ear telling me he's out of system. Whereas if you're knocking people backwards and going up top, I'm able to say, Yeah, but he's winning his collisions, you know, he's not adding to the team, it's not costing the team. And that's the relationship I had with with the boys. Richie'd been playing around in the 13 channel for New Zealand, and I think the Crusaders were using him in the backfield quite a bit from first phase, and I was thinking, how am I gonna get this guy on, you know, this this is one of the greatest players that New Zealand's got. He's one of the greatest crusaders ever been. How am I gonna build a relationship with this guy? So when I saw him playing, he had an incredible amount of physicality and care. He was a tough guy. Like, he didn't shirk any tackles, but he wasn't the biggest. So I said, Look, I've noticed you're moving you around a little bit with the ball blacks and putting you in the 13 channel. And I'm like, why are they doing that, mate? Because when I see you, I see a tough guy, competitive guy who can defend. So why are they putting you there? And he goes, I don't know. Uh, I'm not sure. I said, Well, you're gonna go back into defending as the first or second man for me. And mate, if you keep doing what you're doing, I'm not gonna move you out of there. I trust you, I trust you to be in there. Um and I don't think I ever, I don't think I ever had to have a conversation with Richie where, you know, he was moving sideways or out of the way or not putting a second shoulder in, just glass, you know. And I think that was the little bit that I the language bit that was important was work those little bits out um Ben there with the group because I wanted to talk with their tongue, if that makes sense, because I when I was stood in front of them, I want what was coming out of my mouth was gonna be important. And I wanted them to be looking at me, going, yeah, I can buy into that. Yeah, I can buy into that, uh, yeah, I like that. Um because if it doesn't go well, the first thing they're gonna say is, I changed that, though, didn't you? You stopped us, you know, you stopped chopping, didn't you? You told us to go high and now we're going high. And so I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I wanted to get their trust mate, and I wanted them to feel that I was flexible and I was open-minded about um doing things a different way. And I remember presenting this back to the group, and I'm looking around the room as I'm presenting around different areas of our game, you know, our rack defence, our edge defence, our backfield, and our shot selection and how we're gonna get the ball back. And you know, you're looking at the room, looking back at you, and you're thinking, I hope Cody Taylor's enjoying what he's hearing here. I hope this guy's valuing what I'm talking about here, because if I don't, I get one chance here. And the couple of guys are nodding, and you're kind of getting the feedback that this is going okay. And the meeting finished, and we went out through the door. Scott sort of put his arm around me and he said, No, he was complimentary about the meeting. He said, mate, you nailed the meeting, good detail. But he said, You said don't six times. So I was like, Oh shit. Um and I said, Okay. And he goes, Look, just to give you an example, he said, everything you said, you were correct. So don't turn your back, don't switch off, don't man watch, you know. Um, you're all correct. But he said, think, try to give them the language of what to do, not what not to do. And it sounds so simple, doesn't it? You know, like I couldn't even believe that I hadn't really logged that as a crucial part of presenting. But it is right. So he used to say stay on all the time, you know. It he still says it now. I am, you know, I shout it all the time in training. Whether I was the defense coach, the attack coach, I would, if somebody dropped the ball, missed the tackle, I'd be shouting stay on. And everybody thinks I'm talking to them, but I'm not. I'm talking to myself because it reminds me about the power of the language. You're gonna be so much more valuable telling somebody what to do, or or telling them, you know, being praiseful with what's gone on rather than, you know, negative. And of course, you you have to deliver. I'm the biggest advocate for delivering, you know, at halftime. You have to tell the players what they need. It can't be what you it can't be all fluffy and nice, you know. If a player, like the best players want to know uh how to get better, and if it's not good, they want to hear it. But I do think your language is like that's the bit I saw in New Zealand generally. The players, the staff, their language was incredible, you know, around the positivity. And that's the bit I've probably brought back more than anything. A load of tactical stuff and technical stuff, of course. But that was the bit, you know. Uh the everybody over there taught me about that and how important that was.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

That's cool, mate. The power of language. Understand before being understood, talk with their tongue and give language of what to do, not what not to do. I think that's a that word don't. Don't, don't put your feet there, don't look there. Yeah. Instead of the opposite. And to be to be honest, that is a very common coaching faux par in a lot of ways. Because the concept being right, like as soon as you say anything, that's what's going to happen. If you say don't think of purple, well, you think of purple. Yeah. And so it's it's it's it's that kind of concept where it's really powerful. And those small little shifts you've you've made is is amazing. Now, just mate, just talking about this experience, just on just going back to that Rotherhammer experience. What would you do differently in that one? Because it did so if you're talking about great experience, that probably well, I'm assuming there's a you had a fair few good learnings from that experience. What would you do differently in that one? Because that was a very different experience, right?

Hard Lessons At Rotherham And Moral Compass

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah, 100%. I um the whole learning for that goes right back to me accepting the job, really. I I like I finished up at the Scarlets the season before the end of that season, and I felt like I needed to be in the game. And I I can't remember who said it to me, but they they said, you know, always better to be in a job when you're looking for a job, you know, don't be idle, make sure you're in work, you know, keep yourself sharp and clean. And I probably didn't do enough research around that role in its entirety, as in, yeah, it was a good opportunity to be a head coach. The squad, um, there was a decent squad there, it had done well the year before. And I'd spoke to the owners and they said, Yeah, you know, we'll be getting most of that squad back. And we, you know, we've got some loan signings coming from a few premiership teams, and they'll be they'll be all ready to go again. And I was like, okay, great. So I thought there's a good group to work with there. They're a good, hard-working club. I did my homework around the values of the club. The players that were often in Rotherham had come from academies in Leinster or Ulster or in England, and they hadn't quite made it. And but they were guys that went, no, I'm I'm not quitting on this. I want to be a pro player, and I'm prepared to, I'm prepared to have a, you know, get stuck in here for a couple of seasons. But I always remember the forwards coach telling me, Steve Salvin, really good guy, said to me, Um, he said, The thing is with Rotherham, he said, they're great lads, but he said, if you if they're here for more than three years, he said, it's a bit of a chore because it isn't fancy training facilities, the changing rooms aren't great, the the pitch is muddy in December, and they were all good things for a period of time because they did, you know, they did toughen you up and they did, you know, they they kept you grounded around, you know, uh your work ethic. And then I said to him about three months into the job, well, what's how long have these guys been here? He said, Oh, about three years, you know. So you're thinking, oh, okay. And I think what I found was I think those guys had been there three years because probably a a Premier team hadn't come to get them, or you know, the a URC team hadn't come, or a pro 14 team as it was at the time. And I think the four or five best players had left before I got there, and I hadn't really dug into that. So I think the job I agreed to and the one that I arrived at were a little bit different. So I suppose what I'm getting to here, I'm not creating a sort of excuse culture here. Hey, I did my homework, but I didn't go bone deep on it. You know, I I learned that, you know, you need to check, check, and double check and triple check. So I learned a little bit around that. And I think as well, just around my alignment with with the board. The there's two gentlemen that owned it who'd put an awful lot of their personal money into the club and it kept the club going for a long time. And you gotta respect people that do that, you know, give their own money. And they had visions for the club of, you know, competing for the playoffs and, you know, trying to get into the prem as it was, you know. But I I think I tried to professionalize the environment. I tried to be more organized. I tried to make sure the set the training sessions were, you know, of high intensity and well organized and the kit was laid out. And I put a lot of value on that, as well as the other things around making sure you're, you know, you treat people well. And because we didn't necessarily, you know, get the results that they'd got previously, I think we were sitting like six in the league for most of the season. Then we had a nasty little dip around Christmas time when we had quite a few injuries to some key players, and they they didn't see any value in what I was doing. They just saw the value of results. And I think I probably needed to be aware or more aware of, hey, it's all very well showing the group you're you're making them better and more organized and more professional, but ultimately the guys that are signing the checks here and making the calls, they just want to win rugby games. And I think, you know, I I had to make a decision at the end or towards the end of that season of whether I was gonna sort of take my second year up, and we weren't because my my family hadn't moved up there with me. And I'm a big believer in your family moving with you. I think you know, if you're gonna be happy, you need your family with you. And I needed to make a change to one of the staff, or they asked me to make a change to one of the staff, and he was a good guy and he'd helped me a lot. And I didn't want to make that call to save my own bacon when I knew I wasn't gonna be there the following year, didn't think it was the right thing to do. You know, uh I was making a decision on my own career, but I wasn't gonna chuck the other guy under the bus, you know, as I was being asked to do, uh, it wasn't the right thing to do. So, particularly as I wasn't gonna be there. I think if I was gonna be there, I might have had to have had a tough conversation, but I wasn't gonna do that knowing I wouldn't be there. And I think I what I learned there was looking back, it was the right thing. I don't look back once and and regret it. You know, I feel comfortable that I made the right call. And ultimately it probably cost me my job in the end, you know, in terms of like the trust with the owners, etc. But but I it was the right thing, you know. Like I look back now and go, I was like, I stuck to my morals here, and I'm like, I can look myself in the mirror. And what was good about it was um the players' response, you know, uh when the season finished up and you know I left the players were, you know, very, very it was very humbling to get the messages and the the conversations, the calls from the players that I work with, you know. It's only then you realise really like what work you'd done. And like that's the bit I liked about Rotherham, and that's the bit I learned was. You've got your moral compass and you've got to be smart with it, but you've also got to make sure you do your homework and manage up.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

I think their great lessons that upward management is often comes back as a really important piece for head coaches, right? But I actually love that that I think a lot of people will take uh great lessons out of that moral compass. You want to when whenever your time comes to finish, you want to look back at what you wouldn't regret doing. And at that people side of things is you always want to have that a good conscience around how treated people well on the whole, right? So it's a nice compass to have.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

I definitely try to. I I feel like my you know, one of my first professional coaches I had was a guy called Garth Jenkins. He and uh his assistant coach Nigel Davis, and they were the Scarlet's coaches for many years. Gareth was the most successful Welsh coach domestically for 20 years. Um, you know, he he was um and a lot of his um a lot of his um history now. Is more around the fun stuff that he did, not actually his coaching, you know, he was a character. So a lot of people tell stories about some of the funny things that he did and said. But he was an unbelievably passionate guy for the game. And he taught me about passion for your craft and how infectious is it is. And I guess it leads back to my bit around having the energy in the room. He was the biggest presence in the room when he was in it, most energy, and he genuinely cared about people. Like, but he was also very honest, you know, he'd tell you straight. There was no, he didn't tell you in a bad way. He was just very straight, very direct. You were very clear where you stood. And you went out of any meeting with him, not necessarily agreeing with him if he didn't pick you, or, you know, but you couldn't argue with what he said and how he said it. And I thought, well, that's the bit I try to make sure I I'm aware now. When I have any conversation with somebody, I tried to make sure we go away from there. Not necessarily if we don't agree, then we have to at least go away from there knowing we can have another conversation in half an hour, and none of us are going to be, you know, holding a grudge.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

I love it, mate. I love it. Now, mate, you also talk about on that rep you just referenced your family, mate. How is with all this moving around and like the professional gig of it, how's that been on the on the family? Any advice to coaches that are going on this journey around maintaining the family aspect?

Family, Balance, And Better Parenting

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah, take them with you, without a doubt, if you can at all costs. I, you know, that was the big one for me when I went to New Zealand. The family had to be on board. And obviously, when I did the interview or had the conversations with Canterbury, excuse me, and the Crusaders, it was on the premise of them, the family settling. So I actually went out for two weeks on my own beforehand to sign the contract, but also get a feel for Christchurch and and the schools and everything. And fair play, Shane Fletcher, who was the team manager at the time, legend of a guy and Archie, who was helping him as well there in the Crusaders, who I think's still there. You know, they were they were so good around showing us the schools, where you can live, uh stuff for your wife to do when she gets here, you know, what is she interested in? Like she was into netball, well, she can coach this team or help out here or get a job with a school. That bit was huge, and that bit made a big difference in me saying to them when I was over there, look, you're gonna be all good when you get over here, you know, you're gonna love it. And don't get me wrong, they had one or two wobbles at certain points, you know, because of COVID in particular. We couldn't get home, you know, every three or four months to see grandparents or the dog, because we left our dog at home and the dog was a big part of the family. And so there was some there were some tough moments where a couple of wobbles, but you know, as I said to you off here, the kids and Helen absolutely, absolutely just they rave about New Zealand and uh and their time and trips over to Sumner on the surfboards or the bodyboards and then up the up the hills, uh, you know, trekking up there on a Sunday. And you know, it was just, you know, you're skiing and surfing in the in the same day, it's ridiculous. Um, you know, um it's like I I think going back to the family bit, I think that's it's so important. If you're family-oriented like I am, then uh you need your family around you because they've been in the tough times and the good times, they're the first people that you look for, you know, to enjoy your success or to help you with your with your defeats or or with your failures.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

I think it's I think it's cool, mate, because just in reference, the crusaders do get that side of things really good. They get the people side of things and they do a really good job on that that bigger picture stuff. And a lot of people would say that's one of the strengths of that organization. But it's also important to remember that the rugby and coaching, particularly as a people business, like you're dealing with people, so some of the most important people are your own too, right? So just to take the time to actually you're not in a silo when you're coaching. You've got if you've got a family, that's just as important because it's uh you learn a lot about coaching through your parenting, right? Like it's if you're a parent, it's so many correlations and parallels to it. So to make sure that that's always part of your life. And the other thing your family does, it gives you that lovely perspective and balance, which you can then bring into the people side of coaching. If you're understanding how to navigate a teenage daughter or a teenage son, you're probably going to be better at navigating the young people in your in your rugby teams. Um hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

And look, I I'm I've made some mistakes there around my parenting. You know, I've probably like uh tried to really hold back in work over some difficult conversations, frustrations with a player or a staff member. And then as soon as you come through the door, your teenage son says something to you, and he cops all the frustration that you wanted to you wanted to sort of um unleash on your player, but you've ended up doing it on your son, which is like which is you know terrible. And so I've definitely brought work home with me, you know, like no doubt about that. But I I, you know, my wife's good at, you know, she's good at telling me, hey, you know, you're not in work now. Like you need to just, you know, come back and be dad a second here or be husband or whatever. She's good, she is good at that. And I gotta say, my kids have been outstanding. They they understand when, you know, when I finally turn around and say, look, sorry, son, I absolutely shouldn't have, you know, shouldn't have snapped at you there or shouldn't have just grunted at you there while I was on the phone to somebody else. You know, like and they'll say, Yeah, but we understand, uh, we know you're, you know, you're under pressure. And I said, Yeah, but that's no excuse, you know. You you know, you're them my time is it's the most valuable thing you've got, and like I should be able to give it to you more than anybody else. So they've been very good. And I I gotta say, it's the coaching bits helped me. It's helped me be a better parent. So it works both ways, right? They help you be a better coach, but the coaching bit has helped me be a better dad, I think, uh, around those conversations, like you say, navigating them, listening versus talking, you know, like not leading the conversation, let them lead a little bit more. And I've definitely had I've definitely had better relationships with the boys when they've led, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

That's awesome, mate. Don't bring it home and create that sort of level of separation between what's happening out there and what's home, and draw the parallels from them both and learn from them and use them as as counterbalances to each other.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

100%.

Welsh Rugby’s Crossroads And Clarity

SPEAKER_01 51:55

And mate, you're talking about wobbles and having sort of things, can I flip to this? Because this is a topical one for Welsh rugby at the moment. There's a there's a whole lot of stuff going on which will probably take a few years to really get to the bottom of. How is the Welsh rugby change going for you? And like obviously you're in the thick of it where you are at the moment. Yeah. How's that treated you like and and how does it sort of affect culture on on your team, that external influence of things happening in at a higher where there's changes to teams and amount of teams and the governance side of things is making calls which affects you at head coaching at Ospreys. Yeah. How's it how's it built felt for the culture of your team?

SPEAKER_00 52:36

Well, look, I think when you have when you have big seismic changes, like not a lot of people like change, do they? Like, no matter what it is, big or small, people don't usually like it until they understand it. And I think that's the problem at the moment. Nobody really understands where we're trying to go and where we are in that journey. And I think, you know, I think it's breaking my heart at the moment listening to how other nations and people from other countries are talking about Welsh rugby, you know, around the farce that it is, you know, in terms of, as you said, don't know if there's going to be a reduction in teams, who's going to own the teams, where teams are going to be playing, uh, you know, what the budget of the teams are going to be. Like, there's so much being discussed around the game at the moment, and it doesn't appear to be a clear plan around it. And I think the effect it's having on everybody, from my role to the players to the supporter and the families of players, etc., and even the commercial people that invest in the game, it's it's catastrophic at the moment, you know, around the game. It's it's the game is bloody dying in front of us at the moment. And I just feel like, you know, everybody's saying we just have to be patient and we have to stick, you know, we have to stick with it. But it's like we've got to get some action as well now because um Welsh rugby is a very famous brand of of rugby throughout the world, and the country ultimately, I believe, is famous for lots of things, but rugby is a very, very big, synonymous um pastime that I think people come to Cardiff understand, you know. Like they come to see the castle, yes, they come to see the countryside and the beauty, and they they come to see um uh, you know, uh nature, but they come to watch a lot of rugby and they travel. Uh it's a very famous seller for our country. And I think we're losing that a little bit around it. You know, we're not I think people are losing the connection between the sport and the country, and this is not helping in building that. And I so I'm this is a big this is a big crossroads in in the country, I think. Not just the the team. I think the country's got to, you know, really come together on this and support this because uh, you know, Wales will be a worse place if uh we're not operating at that top table and competing with those the South Africans and New Zealands and the Englands and the islands. We have to be competing with those guys on a regular basis. It's just it's just we can't not be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Mate, I think that's really a powerful thing you said. There's no sort of we're not understanding where we're trying to go and where we are at the moment. There's no clear pan plan. And the wider impact has reverberates down. And I think if we then pull it back to our specific teams, that's very relevant for our every team. Is that coaches we need to be expressing where we're trying to go and where we are at the moment with our teams, if that's a rugby team, and have a clear plan, knowing similar to what we're talking about on this bigger scale, that it will have an impact. It will have an impact on your fans, your community, even your your your own niche geographical region. So, like there's lessons from all these bigger things which we can narrow down and pull pull out the the learnings for us and our teams, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:47

100%. You know, we talked as the playing group and the staff together. One of two things is gonna happen while this is going on. We're gonna get further apart from each other or we're gonna get closer together. And up until this point, we have de it's definitely brought us together. It's brought us together as a staff, a playing group, and ultimately a supporter group, because the you know, we've never seen in the last five years the type of support for the region um visually out there on social media or um even on the streets, uh, like we're seeing now, you know. Everybody and anybody is tapping the players on the back, saying, you know, what a great job they're doing and how well they're playing and representing, because they know we can't win every game, you know. But we're not we're not in that place as a gr as a team at the moment where you can win 90% of your games. But we've been competitive in all our games this year, uh, and we've won a fair few, and we we're sitting in the playoff spot at the moment, which if people were to if people to ask you that with everything that's going on, when mental focus focus is so important in high performance sport, for the staff and the players to be delivering that, it's an absolute credit to them. Fair play. And uh, like you said, I do feel there'll be an opportunity for something great to come out of this. I think the Ospreys will be stronger and will have a deeper history that we can pull on in the future when we survive this and peep and you know, people will look back and go, Well, look what those guys did under those circumstances. It's easy for us, it should be easy for us. So, yeah, I think that's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to make sure we navigate this part of the Ospreys history as best we can. Keep it going for everybody else that's coming behind us.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

For those generations of coal miners that uh from the valley.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

I think they're about done, those guys, but uh yeah, as long as as long as they know as long as they know where they've come from, I think that's the most important thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 57:31

That's correct. Well, and this and this actually forms part of part of the history in itself, and yes to come. This the these little sort of blips and and waves in the in the timeline actually create a bit of the history and how how we navigated it and held our moral compass that we look back and didn't have regrets about things we did and didn't do.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Mark, we've got to that time where I've got one more question for you, and it is this one, mate. What is one belief that you hold about culture or rugby or any aspect of it that you believe in that you reckon your peers would disagree with?

Pulling Together Under Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah, this is a good question. This is one I haven't asked myself for well ever, I don't think. I don't know really. Um the one thing I I would say is I've been an assistant coach and I've been in the head coach role, I'm in the head coach role. And what I would say is I believe that you don't, you know, you can be the the worst performing coach in your environment, i.e., statistically your area's not, you know, the best. Um and it doesn't matter if the team's winning. And I know a lot of coaches I've worked with in the past would absolutely turn around and say, oh, that's rubbish, you know, like I'm the I'm the scrum coach or I'm the I'm the line out coach and like I have to have the best line out winning, etc. etc. Or I'm the defence coach and I want the highest tackle completion. Why I say that is if you've got a I'll give you an example of why I say that. If you've got a defence that's a line speed defence and the job is to absolutely create turnovers and play from transition, but you know because you're so hard off the line, you're probably gonna have a lower tackle completion, but you're gonna force more errors and the team's gonna win more. You might be the least performing coach, but ultimately you're giving the team what it needs to win, and being able to understand that that's your place in the in and that's your role in the team. I think once you can get comfortable with that as a coach, I think you become a better coach. Nobody wants to be the worst in your group, but uh ultimately it's the team that matters. And if it means that there's a little bit of uh you're you're fifth best in the league as opposed to first best in the league at ball winning in the line out, but you win ball in a better area so you can have better strikes, then it's worth doing it, isn't it? It's worth sacrificing the top spot. And I think that's that's kind of my view on it. I know not everybody would agree with it. I get it, but I think the best teams, they have that sort of humility where they go, nah, this is where I sit in the puzzle, this is what I do. And you're always striving to be better, nobody's not. And I think you've just got to be comfortable that if I don't get there, I don't get there. But the team is the most important thing. If I'm helping the team function and the team successful, then that's just that's the price.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

There's a wonderful quote from Tony Brown, which he which I've heard him use many times for the players, which is know your role, do your role. And it's as simple as that. And yeah, what you're saying there is it's potentially for coaches as well, that awareness.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Yeah, 100%. 100%. But again, that's about the only one I could think of, Ben. It was too good a question for me to meet if I'm honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

I love it. Well, Mark Jones, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast. If I may, I'd just like to sum up my three takeaways from this really cool conversation with you today. Number one is this concept of cut cultural architects, and it's a phrase which I've heard before, but I love the way you framed it around trusting your cultural architects. Firstly, you need to ID them. There is people in every team who can lead the culture with potentially more impact than you. So you need to find them, build a relationship, then let them loose on the environment. And you talked about Richie Mwanga took over the last day of the week, and he did it in a way which probably no one else could have done, and the impact was huge. And as a little observation, you can see if the messaging you've been working with with that leader is actually landing by what they're saying to the group. And I think that's amazing for both tactical and the cultural side. Number two, learn more from not leading things all the time. And I think this is a cool one just to remember, particularly in conversations, you have two ears and one mouth. So that sort of ratio of listening to speaking is sometimes an awesome one to pull out. And sometimes the learning you get from just sitting back and listening and letting someone else lead is really magnified and it just changes your perspective as a coach. Number three is this learning you had from the Crusaders. The one big takeaway you had was the power of language. Understand before being understood, talk with their tongue. And you made the big comment around give language of what to do, not what not to do. Don't think of the purple cow, think of what you want to think of. And I love that context, and that is a huge coaching one. Mark Jones, what a privilege and a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Thanks, man. It's been Humblen.