Alex Laybourne: Swedens rise to Top 30 on a shoestring

What does it take for a fully amateur national team to punch above its weight and chase top-30 ambitions? We unpack Sweden’s rise with head coach Alex Laybourne, tracing a bold shift from “show up and play” to a no-excuses culture where standards, clarity, and innovation fuel results. From the outside, it looks improbable: limited budget, a shallow depth chart, and COVID-era hurdles. Inside, it’s a masterclass in identity, ownership, and doing more with less.

We start with culture as lived behavior—how players welcome, challenge, and hold each other to account—and why psychological safety is the launchpad for honest feedback. Alex explains the five-year plan that anchored belief, the coach-led but player-driven model that gave leaders real input, and the clarity-first approach that made Sweden play faster and more confidently. When a player flipped a kickoff plan mid-meeting based on a rival’s left foot, the room didn’t wobble; it improved. That trust turned structure into a springboard for creativity.

Constraints became advantages. Rather than copying tier-one rugby, Sweden chose to be the best version of Sweden, turning weaknesses into weapons with innovations like three-man lineouts. Storytelling amplified identity: drawing on the Carolinians—organized, disciplined, aggressive, innovative—transformed tactics and mindset. When their kit vanished in Luxembourg, a tale about soldiers wearing two left boots reframed a crisis into adaptation and action. Every friction point became a chance to strengthen cohesion.

Alex also shares what he’s taken from conversations with Eddie Jones—build a finishing unit, cut the noise, and keep the main thing the main thing. As results improved, new tests emerged: handling the favorite tag with humility, expanding depth without politics overpowering performance, and integrating overseas players into a tight culture. Through parenting, board roles, and nonprofit leadership, Alex sharpened the questions that uncover truth and the judgment to trust his coaching eye over data he can’t access. If more money came, he’d spend it on people and shared experiences, not gadgets.

Subscribe, rate, and share if this conversation gave you a fresh playbook for building culture that actually wins. What constraint will you turn into your team’s next advantage?

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Transcript

Welcome And Sweden’s Rise

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's really easy to make excuses, particularly I guess in in the amateur environment. If you look around the other teams that we play, there's more, there's more money, there's more resource. You can't just copy what everyone in tier one is doing. It'll just be a not as good a version of those teams. Whereas we want it to be like the best version of Sweden that we could possibly be. If you're real believer in a in you know coach-led but player-driven environment, if you had a bit more money, what would you spend it on? It wouldn't be on that type of stuff. It would be on it would be on people, it'd be on the environment. If you want to get something that you've never got, you've got to do something you've never done.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Alex Leborn. Alex is the head coach of the Swedish national side and has been for the past six years. He has taken the team from 52nd in the world to 30th in the world rankings. What makes Twedan team really different is they are 100% amateur. Given that budget in the shallow depth chart and the fact that these results accrued over the COVID-restricted period, this is a remarkable job. Previously, Alex coached the Scotland Woman 20s and the Lambs in the UK. Outside of the game, he is on the board for the British gymnastics and he is CEO of Power to Inspire, a non-profit which works to create a society where everyone can enjoy inclusive sport together. Alex, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast. Thank you very much. It was a very kind introduction. Hope we can live up to that. Well, mate, we try to set a high benchmark and then you feel the pressure. You get uncomfortable the whole way. Now, Alex, the the question we love to ask to start with is this how do you define culture?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, I I mean I think it's a great question. It's a great question. For me, culture is is kind of the way that we do stuff, particularly when I'm thinking about in in Sweden. I think it's the way that stuff's done. Um and it's the lived, is it's the lived actions of of what's done. So what are the what are the standards or behaviours within that group? And I think you can see I I would like to think if you came into Sweden, you'd be able to see the culture and and feel the culture and hear the culture in many ways in terms of the way that people um talk and connect, you know, how they welcome new people into the group, how they welcome each other at the start of a camp, how they challenge each other, how they pick each other up, you know, how they ensure standards are are kept between them. And I and I think, yeah, ultimately it's it's a really tough thing to define, isn't it, culture? Because you can have good and and bad cultures, and I think either way in those

Defining Culture In Practice

SPEAKER_01 2:45

ones is normally the way that you know people behave within those cultures and what's and what's accepted and you know whether people are pre you know a prepared or able to to challenge them, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah. I think I'm not sure whether that's counts as a definition, but it's an it's an interesting one when you talk about able to challenge the culture. What what's what's w what sort of um examples do you mean by being able to challenge a culture?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, so I th I I think it's more around being able to challenge people with within within the culture and and not feel as if as if uh it's a negative thing. So I I you know you could frame around that sort of psychological safety type um approach in that people feel like they can have those conversations. Actually, a really good example would be within our leadership group recently, one of the one of the leaders put in uh in one of our WhatsApp chats, actually, I think we could be better at you know, basically being present or showing how much work we're doing away from camp, because we've had a bit of time away from each other between the November tests and when we're next back in camp, and actually just saying, you know, w we we should do more, and therefore that will bring along the rest of the group. And he was right, and uh, you know, he kind of picked up with me separately and was like, um, you know, I hope you don't feel like that's that's a dig at all. And I was like, that's not, that's exactly what we're looking for, that challenge there, because you feel the standards in this area should be higher. So and it's and it's your environment ultimately for you know for the players. It's you know, they're they're the ones that own that environment, I think. And and being comfortable in there that no one feels like it's a negative thing, it's a challenge to make everyone better, you know, every time that that challenge is there.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah. A great culture is one where people are okay to challenge the culture. That's cool. That's really cool, and a really good example there on the WhatsApp group. Well, what what is the culture of the do you reckon of the Swedish Swedish?

SPEAKER_01 4:41

I think the main bit that we're trying to really nail down is that is no excuses. Because it's really easy to make excuses, particularly I guess, in an amateur environment, if you look around the other teams that we play, there's more, there's more money, there's more resources, there's maybe a deeper playing pool, etc. etc. It's very easy to go, well, we didn't win that game, but you know, or we haven't achieved what we set out to achieve because. But actually, if you go, what do we have? How can we do the most with what we've got and therefore look inwards all of the time at how can we be better in in different in different areas? And how can we see the positives of it? And again, probably another really good example chatting with the the captain Phil, and he was saying actually sometimes, you know, flying back from flying back from a game via, you know, you go from Sweden via Poland to get back to Ireland, you know, and actually, you know, you end up you're on the it's the overnight stay and you're on the floor with two other players, you know, one's going back to the UK or whatever and goes. Actually it build it builds some cohesion and connection, which which and I think that's the other bit for for me, our our environment's strongly built on cohesion, you know, and that knowing each other off the field as well as on the field and that sort of connection piece that comes with it, I think that's you know, value that really highly in terms of you know, again, ties into you know good culture,

Psychological Safety And Player Challenge

SPEAKER_01 6:10

good, you know, and good people, however we've decided to define good people, but you know, that get on and they they'll connect and they'll sit and play, you know. So when I was talking about, you know, can you can you see or hear the culture when you go in? Well actually if we walk into a team meeting at 12 o'clock, you know, and they've just had you know between sessions, actually, you know, four or five of them sat in the corner playing some form of cards, laughing. It's not the it's never the same group all of the time that you know anyone will jump in and out from from there, I think is always fine amazing to see, and the players drive that as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yeah, it's a it's amazing those little things that you do see and you and you think that there's nothing in that, and that's but there's something actually really strongly in that, like a a game of cards being played in a team room by different people all the time. There's an acceptance, there's an enjoyment of each other, which shines through that example.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, definitely. Um I mean I hate to think how much the boys have spent on packs of cards because they they always seem to leave them lying around at the end of like games of test matches. It's uh but yeah, it's all you know, it's you know, it's the conversation that's built over the over the top of that as well. And uh that that's on top, so the cards is kind of like the excuse for them to have conversations and you know, a new guy into camp, they might bring him in. You know, I I always sat with with a with a new player in camp, a couple of guys with a few more caps together, and we sat down, they said, Coach, are you gonna play? And I said, I'll I'll give it a go, but I have no idea what you're playing. And they said, We'll teach you as you go. And at that point, I was like, uh I spent I was I was concentrating on trying to win the card game, which I was getting absolutely smoked at. But it's uh but it was nice again just to kind of get that feel that you you don't have to worry about those new players engaging or younger, you know, the different ages engaging, because you know it's gonna happen, and that that eases eases one area of you know of building that environment or developing that environment, I think.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

I think that's awesome, Alex, is that it's not the cards they're playing, it's the conversations on top of those cards. That's cool because it's like an invisible thing which is happening there. It's like in business that a lot of people often talk about a golf course, is where a lot of business deals get made. It's not the golf, it's the vehicle for the conversations that happen and it's the setting. And so whilst sometimes people might think, oh, it's just a meaningless game of cards or just a social game of golf, it's actually that's the important bit. And if you do those well and right, we all sort of got that understanding how the business impact happens from a well-orchestrated game of golf, but same too with game of cards in a sports team setting too, right? Yeah, it doesn't matter. Hmm. I I find that fascinating. I guess the one of the one one of the questions is how do you how did how did this all evolve for you, Alex? Getting into the the Swedish team. Uh how did that how did that take off for you? Like if for for those unaware of this sort of stuff, how did you get how did you land this job?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yes. Uh it probably comes down to connections again, actually. So I um there was a a lad that I had had coached in in the past, and then I brought him over when I was a head of rugby at a a school. I brought him over to to be assistant head of rugby and and to do his t teacher training. Um he uh he was coaching the the girls under eighteens in Sweden. I don't know how that had come about. Um but he was talking to the performance director at the time. And they were like, Yeah, we're looking for a for a new head coach. And he kind of

No-Excuses Mindset Under Constraints

SPEAKER_01 9:40

said, Oh, I think you should have a conversation with this guy. And I haven't been out of Sweden certainly in the in the recent past, I don't think at all so in terms of going overseas for a coach. And you know, I sent across a bit of my background and and C V and um and and they and they took a a pun on me and I'm very, you know, privileged in in that sense that I got the opportunity to to do that. I mean before before taking edit a bit of um due diligence is the wrong word, because I think it that opportunity was always too good to turn down. But uh actually when I was at Loughborough, I was studying at Loughborough and I and I lived in halls with a guy called Anders Nelson. He was the he was the Sweden captain at the time and he was just retiring through injury. So um so I phoned him and uh I said, Well, what do you think I'm a good fit? And he he said I he thought I'd be good for them and they'd be good for for me. And and again I leaned on him a bit on some of the cultural stuff, you know, so understanding, you know, some of the different cultural pieces, you know, in Sweden and and how maybe some of the theming that I wanted to do might translate across um to what what was going on. So yeah, so it kind of started from there and then uh now it's great, got got stuck in. I thought it was brilliant, we can get get stuck straight into it and then and then covet it. Luckily you could still fly between England and Sweden, so I wanted the only flight paths still open, but it did mean that you know at five o'clock in the morning I'd be waking up, drive to go and get a swab test in Peterborough. So I'd be in like Oakham in the middle, and there's drive to Peterborough, get a swab test, drive up the M1 to some random service station, post it off, wait 24 hours for it to come back, hope that it was negative, and then basically drive down the um A1 to get to Heathrow and then fly out to Sweden and back again. So it's um became quite costly as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah. Oh, it shows the love of it, man. Far out. Far out. And what was when you when you went in there, when you first walked into that Swedish setup, what were you talked there about some the some of the cultural pieces and the theming sort of stuff. What what needed to change for you and and and what did you know you had to sort of look after and and protect in the environment?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, I think the the bit that I think needed or that that I felt when I went in there that we could make the biggest impact. And there was a bit of uh there was a bit of organizing, which is kind of more the the X and the O's, but the the key bit was a bit of a mentality shift. There was arguably a feeling that and and players have confirmed this since, so I don't think I'm speaking out of term, but it would be a sense of like the turn up to play for Sweden because they want to play for Sweden, but they're just turning up to play, and they would they'd been in the same league for in the conference for a number of years, playing the same teams, you know. I think at the time it was Hungary, Czech, Luxembourg and Latvia. And they were kind of in this this sort of like convey about turn up, we'll play, we'll probably lose to Czech. Hungary will be a good game, should beat Luxembourg, etc. Whereas when we when I went in, they'd just lost to Luxembourg for I think the first time ever. Uh 12-0 at home. And they'd only and they'd beaten Latvia by two points. And so it was technically the middle of that season, and then that point we were having to we were about to have to play the favourites, um, Czech, and then Hungary, who were looking pretty good. So you're at risk then of potential relegation, but they'd have probably been safe again. Whereas we f we flipped that narrative straight away, which was essentially came in and went, well, the the COVID's cleared that season, so that we can forget about that, and you can forget about those two games, obviously take some learnings from them. But actually, we're here to if we're going to do this, we're gonna do it properly, and we're gonna work hard away from camp and at camp, and we're gonna do it because we're gonna win the conference. And so I laid out a kind of a five-year plan, which probably in fairness, I I probably felt even myself at the time that it was a bit of a push. But actually, as when you look back at it, I'd essentially said, let's get promoted year one from the conference to the trophy, which happened, so we won a grand slam that year. And then it was sustain ourselves in the in the in the trophy, and then by the end of year five, you know, so the fifth season, top 30 in the world, and qualify for the championship, which is where Georgia and Spain and Portugal are where at now the two games in the spring are you know, there's basically us, Czech and Poland, any of the three of us can go up depending on the various results. You know, I wouldn't say we're at the forefront of that, but we have an element of control to be able to do that. And you look at it and you go, well, actually we when we initially put that out, a lot of people are like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure, but let's let's give it a crack. And I think it was just turning that mentality into

Cards, Connection, And Cohesion

SPEAKER_01 14:20

actually we're here to to win. And I think there is a there are there are times where actually saying, Yes, we have to win test matches is still important. Yes, the process is is important and and the bit and and the bits in behind that, but ultimately play for your country to win test matches and and to be there. And I I don't think you have to shy away from that at times. I think you can say we're here to win test matches. You know, and there's lots of other stuff that that builds into. I think I don't think you just come in and be like, well, we're here to win, and off you go, lads. So yeah, yeah, yeah. There are all other there are all the processes and the cultural stuff that comes in behind, but I don't think shying away from that as a something that we want to do is is a bad thing. So I think that was a bit that kind of changing that mindset into actually we're good, we're here to win, and and we're doing this for a reason. I think the bits that you keep are like Swedes are so passionate, they're they're hard working, they've got really high ceiling of um kind of like work rate, work ethic. They they want to learn and take on board, you know, information that you're giving them, they want to be successful and they'll and they'll buy into stuff. If you show that you care, they they will buy into it. And I think that was the the bit's making sure we kept that, you know, that real like passion for Sweden and Swedish rugby, you know, capture that and then turn that into performances on the pitch.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I think it's really important context, the message just is put we we don't shy away from results or talking about results like it's just that acknowledgement that this is actually a big part of it. And that when we're talking about culture, we're we're working the culture to help that part of the game, right? Like that's we're not gonna shy away from that. Like kind of my belief is if if you get the culture right, results should follow if if it's a good culture. What what specifically did you sort of do? You you shifted the mentality and said, right, we're gonna do five-year plan. Here it is, bang, bang, bang. Did you put anything in specifically which is like so this is this is something we're gonna do? Or or was it mainly the X's and O's side of things then? Or did you actually have a couple of like here is something really specific that we're gonna do, which will be a shift for you and help this mentality change?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

We I I I lent on the players a lot, and I and I probably without sort of like I'm a real believer in a in a player, you know, coach-led but player-driven environment and a and a pretty like flat structure in that in that sense, because there's so much knowledge and experience in it in from that group, and I think one of the bits that we made sure we did was it was involved the leadership group and the leaders in the way that we wanted to play the game, so the design of the game model and and the pieces underneath the game model, so like the the parts that made that up. And obviously that's going to be led, but not obviously, but I I felt like that needed to be led by me, but it needed the the buy-in and the engagement of the players, and then they could flesh some of those bits out, and it also allowed them to then challenge stuff within it. So if we go, right, here's our game within our game model, here's our game plan for playing a good example. Here's our game, here's our game model, here's our game plan for playing Lithuania, here's our kickoff strategy. Kick-off strategy, I'd said we were basically gonna kick long because we knew that they'd kick back to hit touch. If we kick deep enough, they'd hit touch and we had a stronger set piece, we'd be able to catch and drive and then play on the front foot, essentially. And then the the Tem was like, what foot is this tank, their 10 kickoff? I was like, it's left footed, isn't it? He goes, Yeah. I was like, so why don't we kick the other way? I was like, well, it's actually really that's a really good point. Like cut his angle off. I was like, I don't mind if you know if you want to change that strategy, let's do it. And we did that in the and that was in a team, full team meeting, and I was really comfortable with that challenge, and no one sort of bat an eye, it didn't feel like a them and us type thing. It was just a case of like, well, actually we've had a look at the the game plan, what's the other bits that you know, where there is other knowledge in here that we can bring that in together and make decisions from there? I don't actually know if I've answered the question. I feel like I've I feel like I've gone kind of off, but I think the yeah, I mean, I wouldn't the X's and O's, I think they they come. There is a lot of structure. I think you know, we our game has been built on clarity, I think, because if

Path To The Job And Early COVID Hurdles

SPEAKER_01 18:40

you've got clarity in how you want to play, then you can play that game a lot quicker. So if you're really clear how how we want to play, then you can increase the speed of how you want to play. Everyone has got clarity of decision making, and therefore it gives you freedom to do more. So if you're really clear what your shape, your attack shape might be, for example, that's only in our eyes, that's there to create opportunities to attack into. So everyone's really clear. You create those opportunities, and when that opportunity is there, then you break out of that shape and you attack into where that that space is. But the clearer everyone is about that and the quicker you can shift into that, the the more opportunities that you you create. So I think that has been important that we've had a couple of bits where like let's be really clear on game plan and and various shapes. But within that, we want to be playing quick and play to space, you know, and enjoy what we're playing. And again, that comes into it. It's like what's the style that the boys enjoy as part of that as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah, I I I think it's cool that you just a couple of things you said there about I love that bit about the clarity, just essentially makes the confidence, right? If you're click clear in your shape, it just creates confidence and a belief and you can go harder. But I also loved how you just empowered your players from the start. You you bought them into the decision-making process of how we play. Then so that creates the buy-in, but then you also just it ultimately knew that it was your job to then instill it and be the guy that's pushing it, right? And I I think that's a lovely flat level coaching structure. I think it's I think it's awesome. And obviously it worked pretty well, mate, because that's a that's a big shift uh results-wise, isn't it? Like, I think did you clean sweep or had had the first non-loss in a season?

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Uh yes, yeah. So that first season was well, bearing in mind we'd lost 12-0 to Luxembourg before I got appointed. Our first game back was Luxembourg. The two team sheets were relatively similar. I think we had maybe four or five different names. And we won that game 52-5. You know, and I remember the the the one of our guys came up and said, Oh, the Luxembourg lads have just been asking what the difference is. And uh I said, Well, what did you tell them? They said, Well, and they said, Well, we just we've kind of taken the handbrakes off a little bit and we feel really confident in what in what we're doing, and that was nice to hear as well, because um that was quite nervous. That was my first like full test match as well as a as a coach, and the boys were taking the mick afterwards because they're like, Oh, you could tell you were nervous. I thought I'd done a really good job of hiding it, but clearly not. So but yeah, and then and then um and then we beat Hungary and and Hungary was insane that we went 17-nil up within about eight minutes, and then at half time it was 17-0, and the players thought we were like 30 points up. There's no score, no scoreboard. They've got this purpose-built rugby stadium, no scoreboard. And I was like, lads of you, and that's when I learned some other bits as well around that, because you learn stuff each game. I was like, actually, that they hit the a lot of them don't keep score, they just play because they're enjoying it. And I was like, lads, you know it's 17-0, don't you? And like you should have buried this game already in the first half, and then ultimately we we then scored a couple of quick tries in the second half, and but at the end of the game, we had a penalty to basically bury the game, missed the penalty, uh, came off the post, I think, and then we gave away we gave away a penalty on their try line. They kick it to the halfway line, we give away a penalty of the line out, they kick it into the 22, and you're like, oh, we're four points. We're four points, four points off. So need to try and think, oh Brimey. And then about twenty phases later, and then we get a captain makes the the captain his best mate, actually. They they make the tackle and jack or turnover to to win the game. Just no need for that level of stress. But I learned loads from that as a as a coach as well, because I hadn't spent any time on our attack shape between Latvia and Hungary because it had been so good against Latvia, or I felt that it had been good against Latvia. But their their retained knowledge had gone away. And then we just completely lost all shape. And that made me realise actually have I spent enough time on clarity of attack shape or have I spread the message too wide and not focused in enough on on there. So we got away with that. And then we played um, yeah, we played Czech in the in the Olympic Stadium in Stockholm, which is like incredible, you know, and again, the it gives the boys an extra 10%, you know, playing in in the Olympic Stadium, incredible venue. And yeah, I think no, you know, no one had really given us a chance, but as a group we knew what we were capable of doing, and you know, that and I don't think anyone ever felt that we wouldn't win that. And we actually got a red card just before half time, which I would to this day still argue, but

Flipping Mindsets And The Five-Year Plan

SPEAKER_01 23:10

there was no TMO, so there was no TMO and there was a lot of flood, so so I think the ref uh wasn't left with much choice, but uh yeah, as you know, but uh I mean that would that was really great to see the environment then as well because I I went in and I thought there might be this stage of panicking at halftime and one of the lads, Axel Calling Smith actually plays over in his top try scorer now. So he'd uh I think it's like 26 from 28 games, which is an incredible return. Um you know, but he he'd had about seven or eight caps before I arrived. But he um just sat in the changing room, so we don't need to we sat in the backsplit, so we don't need to worry. We can I can cover the pendulum. He was at 13, he's like, I can cover the pendulum, we'll keep the winger, pull the winger into 12. I can't remember the exact you know details of it. But I was like looking at my notepad and I go, I don't there's nothing else here. It's like we've these guys have got it covered, so I was really comfortable going into the second half that they knew exactly what they wanted to do. And the final message we had before half time was like you know, just remember what we're capable of in our intent. And I think we scored 17 points in you know in a in a in a short burst at the start of the second half. And um yeah, so that was that was really, you know, that was a great that was a great feeling there to to pull that one off being Grand Slam in that season and up into the trophy, which was nice.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Love it. You said something just before about when information's lost over like you do you forget to do it one week and it doesn't happen in the game. And I think that's a really it happens at all levels. I think you you have a bye weekend and you and you give the team off for the week and you almost have to factor in their next training, it's gonna be a bit of a shambles because you're out of a rhythm, out of a flow, and you just have to it's kind of a good coaching point is whenever you have a break, just know that first training back is it's gotta be a messy one and just embrace that and go just off the air just before we got on is uh around the learnings. And I think this is a a really good testament to yourself is when you got the Swedish job, you I reached out to Eddie Jones for a chat, and um he came back and said, Let's catch up for a coffee and you had a coffee and just chewed the fat. And what was your learning from that? Like I think the learnings is just what a great concept is just always reach out, and this this sport is a good one too. Um people are generally pretty open around sharing. What were some of the big pickups you got from him which were have been really valuable for you as a coach?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Yeah, I uh firstly that it's been incredible, I think, just his his willingness to share and to be open. I think you're right, in in this sport, there are lots of people that are very happy to to do that. And but yeah, I mean I one thing I'd every time I have a conversation with him, whether that's a coffee or whether we're you know exchanging emails, there's always a nugget that you can come out with and we we can use. And um, I think I was sharing before, you know, one example I had was you know, we we were I was trying to build depth within it within our squad to give more experience to the 23. I think in that in that Latvia game, we'd you know we'd put the game to bed after about 15 minutes, so made a lot of changes, so we need to give guys test match minutes. But we we were careering opportunities but couldn't put them away and were making too many mistakes. I remember was that and then similar in that in that hungry game that I just talked about and was saying to him as he said, Well what's your biggest challenge? I said, Well, I I really feel like you know, we've got I've definitely got a the 15 at the moment that are doing the job, but it's a 23-man game, particularly if we want to beat Czech and we want to compete in the trophy. And he was like, you know, how much how much time does your how much time does your finishing side spend together? And I was like, I know the answer to this, but I don't want to say it because it's really obvious. You know, so that that was more and then you know, just you know, it's bits that come within off the back of that is like, what do you, you know, what do you, you know, how how do you how do you build um you know, like a real passion within you know groups within the squad like what we're like with your bench, you know, so our bench is called the they always call the bench the the troop um or or a group the troops that we call them the super trooper, you know, with uh ABBA off the ABA song. And uh it was called cultural appropriation from the from there. So and uh so yeah, so so it in there and then just other pieces around playing, uh like a really valuable conversation we had early on. I was saying, look, these are all of the maybe comes down to the coaching stuff saying these are all the things that I think that we could do or we should do to help us. And he's like, What's what's your job? I said, um the head coach. And again, well there's obvious answers, but it's like, but what's your actual job? And that comes back to what I was saying earlier, it's like it's to win test matches. So your job's to get this team to win test matches, and how do you do that? So which of all of this other stuff is noise, and which of this stuff do you have to focus in on? It'd be like, what's the key one or two messages or key one or two things that you need to do? And that really helped with the with the culture piece as well. It's like actually like where's where's our focus? Like what what really defines Sweden and and the people we are and the way that we want to play the game? Yeah. So, you know, lots of really like good bits of information like like that I would say, and then just being able to, I think often just being able to talk rugby is a really interesting, you know, is really good, you know, with great brains in in the game. Like, can you just talk through your last game? You talk through a a particular area. We talked about, so we wanted to be I was saying that you know, our line out wasn't

Coach-Led, Player-Driven Game Model

SPEAKER_01 28:35

great early on, so we used a lot of three-man lineups. And again, it was a reframing, it was uh well, why don't you try and be the best in the world at three-man lineouts because no one's really using three-man lineouts. So I'd share our three-man lineouts with with him, you know, get some get some thoughts on what they they look like. He did use he did use one that looked very similar when he was coaching the Barbarians. I did wonder whether he stole it, but I doubt it.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

I think that's cool. How did how did you reframe that one? Because I I love that you talked earlier about just um changing the mindset and the narrative and around something like that, like so you're not great at that side of things, so you go to a three-man line out, but then instead of saying it's it's a cop out and we're doing this because this is poor, you've reframed it into let's make this a real weapon and get excited about the fact that we're doing this. Is that obviously that's really deliberate. How how how'd you do it and how how was it received?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, I think yeah, again, probably comes back to the initial piece when I was putting together sort of like you know, what what do we what do we build ourselves around, you know, in the the the Swedish army in the 1680s, 1700s, the Carolinians was like the greatest Swedish military force of its time and the bet and the strongest military force in Europe. But I was having a look back at like what what made them so good and it was basically being organized, being disciplined, being super aggressive, and being innovative. And that was kind of that was a starting point for us. I was like, well, actually that's what we want to be, you know, organized, disciplined, you know, have you know, be innovative in the way we want, and a sort of all-out attack, and this sort of go-go-poor, which literally means go on, this sort of like go-poor mentality. So we were then able to lean into that. I was like, actually, this is a case of us, like we want to be different, because to win at this level, you can't just copy what everyone in tier one is doing or the tier two sides. You can, but you'll just be a not as good a version of those teams. Whereas we wanted to be like the best version of Sweden that we could possibly be. And we wanted to be innovative and try different things. And there are, you know, I'd say every season or every cycle there are a few bits that we would try that we think actually this is gonna be different, you know, so uh so other teams know that they've got to kind of expect the unexpected, which which puts them, you know, that's doesn't allow them to have, you know, clarity on how they defend against Sweden because they're not 100% sure what we're gonna do. So I think that was the way with the with the guys, it was like, well actually, yeah, this is different to what you've done before. But if we want to do what's that what's that quote? If you want to get something that you've never got, you've got to do something you've never done. You know, if we want to get to top 30 in the world, at the highest of a ranking before, that was 34th. So if you want to do that, then we've got to do something different. If we want to beat these teams, we've got to, you know, something has you know, there are some bits which actually, yeah, you've just got to be good at catch pass, winning collisions, etc. But there is other stuff where you can look at it in a slightly differently, and it gives the players freedom to go, well, actually, I would quite like to try X, Y, or Z. And so it opens up, you get a bit of creativity out of the players as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Um I think that's really cool. And like just just leaning into some of that culture stuff that you talked about ABBA being culturally appropriation stuff, but also that Swedish army as well in the 1680s, right? Like, you're able to pull out stuff which is already there in the environment, organized, disciplined, aggressive, innovative, and then use that as almost to help drive the narrative, right? Like, man, this stuff is already here, it's already part of your history and your upbringing, and your parents and your grandparents and the land you're in. It's all here. And this is how we're doing our expression of that in this context, and and reframing essentially something which is compensating for a weakness is now flipping it into a real strength. I think it's I think it's an incredibly clever thing to do. Yeah, and I think you dive you go.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

No, I was just gonna say one of the other bits with that is that um Dauti had the smallest, one of the smallest forces, military forces, in terms of numbers, and we use that as we're gonna come back tomorrow and talking about no excuses culture, you know, less numb numbers, less kind of you know, they kept the um they

Clarity, Speed, And Style Of Play

SPEAKER_01 33:00

they kept the bayonets for the like spears for for the spear charge, you know, because it was something that other people weren't doing um diff different um different soil resource. And so we're kind of like, well, actually, what they were really good at was being like, well, we're smaller in numbers, but we're really clear in what we're doing and we're really aggressive, and then pick a tactic that would break together a break break apart a larger force, you know, say more lots of what probably relatively standard military manoeuvres now, but you know, they might just pick a big uh you know, battle of Klissau. I think it's Klysell. So again, some of our moves around these, but you know, essentially took it took a really like compact force and just went straight through one area, got even behind, and then attacked them from behind, and you just create enough chaos. So again, it allows you to when we're looking at match plans or other you know, some storytelling, there's some really good opportunities to to do that. I won't tell all of them. I've got I've got one in my mind, but I realize that that's one I'm I'm gonna use in a couple of couple of weeks' time. I want to share and but yeah, so it allows some of the storytelling and bringing some of that bit in. But I think again, it showed for us, I was able to go, well, actually, look, there's that you've got less, you know, yes, let less people, which you might relate to less depth, you know, less less money, but they're really clear how they spent it, which was in terms of you know, looking after that pool of really committed soldiers, etc. etc. So there's lots of stuff that you're able to we're able to draw upon to get that get that belief.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, I reckon those stories are actually really awesome, what you're talking about there. It's um the stories uh are what humans love, right? We we love a good story, and like stories become sort of sticky and they spark your imagination and they show you what's possible. And those ones you're talking about, just those army sort of references of what's been done in the past, just it just makes you want to get in there and give it a crack, isn't it? Like it's such a powerful way to quickly unite a group, you know, just around a way of thinking. And it sounds like you're just that's been a big part of your your movement in Sweden. Is it is it something being really deliberate? Like because you're not a traditional rugby powerhouse, so you're trying to create this belief. Have you sort of been really conscious around the storytelling element and drawing in the history as has been a big part of that when you don't have say like a World Cup or a strong rugby history to to go with? Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

You know, I'm I'm a big believer in that sort of storytelling side of self. I think again it it builds connection, you know, it allows other people to explore it. Really probably interesting story. I don't know if you found it in your research. We played Luxembourg this time last year, our kit got lost. Actually never left um Stockholm Airport. And so we played in, I I phoned the I phoned uh I text the Sevens coach who lived in the Netherlands and uh and said, I are you awake by any chance at midnight? And he said, What's up? So I phoned him and I said, Rich, we uh we have a problem in that I don't think our kit's gonna arrive, and the only person I can think of within shooting distance of Luxembourg is you. He's like, Well, I promised my missus a nice breakfast. I was like, No, I'll pay for it. As you know, he left drop it off. But anyway, he went, found, you know, he drove around three local clubs, found a kit, found a video stand and video uh and uh medical kit, drove it down, got to luckily six o'clock kickoff,

From Losses To A Grand Slam

SPEAKER_01 36:20

got it to us for about three, three thirty. Yeah, dropped it off, and actually, you know, we we were we were in a team meeting, kind of like again, no excuses, you know, what what do you what do we need to solve this problem? Management team will go out and buy stuff in Luxembourg, we'll meet back here at three, Rich will be here, but this is there's no excuse here. And Gunnar, who's our analyst, but he's also does loads of leadership stuff, he's a become really great guy to be able to lean on from the from the cultural piece and and from understanding Sweden. The players got great connection with a lot of the guys that he'd he'd worked with through the through the youth levels. And he said, Oh, did you know the Carolinians used to just have two left boots? And that it's something I didn't I didn't know. And essentially it was, you know, because if they lost a boot, they're not worried about finding a left or a right boot. All of the boots are they wear two left boots. So that's that's just what they had. So every boot was the the same. I thought, well, this is incredible. I was like, you know, and so it shares this with the with the players, and they think, well wow, there you go. That is a kind of you know, this is you know, this these kit challenges, etc. that come with it. There's a story that can kind of you know relate to it back to the Carolinians and and uh and off we go. And we played we played well in in that game. Through left foods, yeah. So no luck was the but um yeah, so I I yeah, talking about those those, you know, yeah, not necessarily. I think some of it's pretty good and what's the other stuff. So what one of the bits we also said was you know, as well as those those when people look back, this team is the greatest Swedish team that there's ever been that that there's been Swedish men's rugby team that there's been. And then it was like, well, how you know, how do we measure that? Yes, there's the world rankings as you know, as and that's where the world ranking bit came in and some of the other stuff. But it was also came back to that, like how do people involved in how do they feel, what are the stories they tell to other people from there, what do people see inwards of what's happening within the group. So I think some of that storytelling was really, really important as well. And then it's celebrating all of the other wins along the way. I think again, within our culture or within our group, we're very good at you know, kind of celebrating guys having kids, promotions that that you know, get a married. A lot of that's happening now. When it's early on, there was, I think there was one one player who's married with with uh an expecting kid. Now there's a lot more sort of families, you know, as you know, over the last six weeks, you know, marriages and kids and stuff. You know, so th those bits, but also the on-field stuff like Arle Lohman signing for Nottingham and then for Tigers, you know, actually being able to share that story to people and going, actually, yes, they're you know, let's look back in the past, there have been some some great guys who've played in the amateur area. Um, Canugu, coach before me, had I think is the only Swede to have played for the Barbarians. You know, so one Swede has played for the Barbarians who like, well, this is another piece of that history in the in these areas which do have lots of rich history, you know, Leicester Tigers, you know, barbarians. It'd be nice if, you know, I I think that's one thing I'd really like is, you know, a Swede or two to be picked up and play a game for the barbarians, and I think, you know, they've got the you know, we've got the players with the ability. You know, again, it just starts adding to adding to that history and you can build on pulling those different areas, I think is important. And then, you know, Tim Johansson, who's our our ten, he recently hit 50 caps. And to put that into context, if you imagine we're playing five, maybe six full test matches a year, that's and he spent a couple of years in Australia at the start of his career. He took a few years out in the middle. You know, to hit 50 caps is essentially 10 years of playing consistently, plus he had his those times out is is incredible. Like T O R number eight now played 30, 30 test matches in a row. The first time he came off in and so since I I think it had eight before he came, but the I think the 20 the 21 test match I've had him for, I've taken him off for 20 minutes. It was because he had an injury. Like the rest of that has been 80-minute shifts and that's in a and that's in a row, you know. And again, go back to it being an amateur sport, that level of commitment's massive because it's also giving up your holiday, you know, to travel on a Thursday or a Friday. You know, and if you if you play for Sweden, if you play fifteens and sevens for Sweden, you're potentially giving up all of your holiday just to represent Sweden, or not just to re to represent Sweden. And uh, you know, I I think that's under underestimated, and I think sometimes telling, you know, making sure people are aware of that, you know, actually, and the

Halftime Leadership And Composure

SPEAKER_01 41:10

and how grateful the group are to each other that people make that commitment, because they do have to make that choice and that commitment. I think there are there are you know, it's drawing out of those bits that that create and hopefully in the future we're also leaving stories for other people to to build on going going forwards and putting in that history. I think is I think about six years' time hit 100 years in Sweden. So yeah, part of that legacy piece is their stuff that you know people can draw on from this period of time as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Now, mate, one interesting one that I'd love to get your thoughts on, mate, with all this stuff is how have how have you grown your leadership coaching this this team? Have you changed as a person? Has your life stretched by being in this role? Definitely, yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

And I think it comes across all lots of different aspects, and the more the more, as with any of these things, the more you get into it, the more you realise how much there is to learn. I think you you know you know there is stuff to learn and you know, like every conversation with Eddie, for example, you're like all there's a you know, there's a long way to to still go conversation with different players. Or, you know, you've had other guests who have talked about obviously that change in generations, you know, and we've got a we've got from 18 to 38 in our squad. You know, like how do you how do you bring those guys together? How do you coach the the new generation, the old generation, how do you get the the most out of those? How do we where we've now went from not having much and being quite low to getting used to being successful? The the challenge we've got at the moment is like how do we deal with being the favourites or how do we deal with being successful? And and I think that is that has become a challenge and it's something that you know we're addressing at the moment. Like, how do you, you know, if you go into a game and you're the you're the favourites, because again, Swedes very humble guys, we haven't necessarily dealt with being the favourite tag, very good underdogs. And um so that that's a new challenge that comes in there that that we've built a depth of players so you've got more challenging conversations around you know, non-selection, dropping experienced players with lots of caps for for new guys and you know who maybe aren't used to being dropped again, particularly in a in a country where you know if they're playing in a club, if they're available, they're playing, you know, and then in the national team they've been in for however many caps, and then you're having to have those difficult conversations. Obviously, challenges with young players who feel like, yeah, we're ready to go now, but getting them to understand the difference between where they're at and and test match will be, and particularly if you get overseas based players come in, they have to spend a fair bit of time in in camp to kind of you know understand how we want to do stuff and to make sure they fit with with the group, etc. But they sometimes we have had in the past, it didn't really happen now, but we've had in the past where they just assume that they're good enough because they played in England, you know, or they've played in in France. And so changing that is is important. And actually anyone that comes from overseas, like I said, they they're committing, you know, they they pay to get themselves to camp. So they're paying like, you know, a couple of hundred quid at least to to fly out there, you know, whatever else they spend on food, parking at the airport, etc. So there's a big financial commitment. There's a time commitment, you know, because if you're flying out to camp, they're also taking other days off to come out to camp. Some of them if they come out instead of taking a match free at at home because they know they need to be at camp to get selected into into to get to games. So having some of those conversations as well. Like actually you've got guys who are really committed and there are all of those things together, but everyone's giving something right at different you know a different level. So having those challenging conversations grow I think every time you have those conversations that grows you surrounding I've slowly built the management group up. And I think it's been really important who you bring in and I I've I've taken my time with that. And again it's developing the leadership group and the management team is making sure with a really conscious effort not to surround yourself with people who are just going to agree with you. I think that's a really e I say easy thing to do, but in the sense of like it you can you can easily fall into that without necessarily realizing it. So consciously thinking actually can I surround myself with people who are

Learning From Breaks And Eddie Jones

SPEAKER_01 45:30

the right people, good people, they suit the environment they're good, you know, tool management team they're good with the players are they going to challenge me and challenge appropriately but also when we leave the room are they going to be all on the same page at that time but also for the other 364 days of the year when we're having lots of other conversations. So I think that that balance is really really important and that helps grow the sort of leadership piece as as well. Yeah and that and I think you know tended to try and avo try and avoid politics that sits with it but you can't completely ignore it again probably another good lesson from from um from Eddie was like you need to park as much of it as you can but you you're never completely detached it's always going to be there whether you're in the you know Swedish union or the RFU. It's just the size and you know what's attached to attached to it. So managing some of those relationships has has been interesting. You know we've got really great um general secretary in in Neil Johnson he's really good at sort of managing some of those bits between politics and actually what's you know us being able giving us the the freedom to just go and achieve on the pitch you know and and being almost some of that a bit of that that barrier. And of you know as with all these things like different mentors from different different places supports that. So when you got you know challenges I've still got you know I speak with um Paul Westke did my did my level three 10-15 years ago you know still speak with him regularly around you know challenges that that that I have and how do you develop those and he he offers some really challenging questions and conversation back and I think having those people is really important. And then the stuff outside is has helped as well. You know the other bit that's happened in those six years I've had two kids. So I've got a a six year old and a four year old um you know my wife is incredible incredibly supportive um particularly because she's you know playing her own you know in the masters level of hockey calendars are chaotic as the kids love a club you know whether it's gymnastics or rugby or swimming and balancing that and wanting to be a really good dad and a really good husband is you know again makes you think consciously about some of these pieces that the work element again like power to inspire incredible you know they love they love it. So John the John the founder loves his his rugby and Jeremy our chair same thing. So actually that you know there's a real buy in there in terms of like it's very supportive of like well this is happening in Sweden and and they're they're excited for me and for Sweden and uh that means you know but they also know that there are skills coming back the other way. So you know whether that's the amount you know the ability to build relationships with players and with people which is which is a skill that we need in the in the charities or when you when you're searching for funding and partners and partnerships and stuff like that. So there's some some crossover there that could that comes with that.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah that's a really good that that point mate you made some cool points around the politics and because the sport particularly is a passion piece for most so you get a lot of emotion and and different perspectives from different people right so I love that you made the reference that it's everywhere whether you're club level international level the highest club level the the politics is it's just part of it because this is an emotive sport it's it's like a war essentially and when people get emotive you're going to get clashes all over the show. But you did raise mate that that this this other side of you which is like you're running in this power to inspire this not non-for-profit and you're also on the a British gymnastics board how are these pieces this is a really intriguing balance to you where you've got these other aspects of your life is are they and your parenting as well how are they helping you coach rugby mate how's that going yes it's um yes with a with the so I chair the foundation um the British gymnastics foundation that and that you know in in there that's that's a real good opportunity to you know there's a lot of incredibly experienced and intelligent people within that room are getting the most out of of them.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

I think that's a you know for me actually how do I you know go back to that sort of way of coaching across the and getting the most out of the management team, the leadership group and the players I kind of see that in the the boardroom as as well where you kind of go actually how do I get the most out of these people and make sure they're comfortable to share and again to challenge. So I think any of those experiences in it like if you want to get better at coaching you you have to coach more but I think it's not always just coaching

Building Depth And Super Troopers

SPEAKER_01 50:05

I think it's lots of other what are the skills of coaching is it more teaching you know I do some I I still mentor um some student athletes at Loughborough so you know you take some skills from from there as well in terms of like what does that one-to-one relationship and mentoring look like that you know yeah that boardroom getting getting the best out of of uh of people I think with within power to inspire as a lot of the strategy level level piece because there are stuff ultimately head coach you know how lovely would it be to be head coach and you just literally plan your sessions go on the pitch deliver your sessions have your relationships with players and go home and be I don't think there's many head coach roles where that's the case is that they've all got some form of you know they filter into those different areas so you know it's it's the skill sets within those I think whether that's whether that's teaching whether that's like managing people getting the most out of people I think they all kind of cross cross over and I'd like to think that what I do in Sweden also helps those other those other areas you know including the parenting side of stuff like actually how do you ask good questions you know to get to find out what find out what a six year old did at school what question can I ask where you're gonna where you're gonna get an answer from it and yeah we actually play a three question game it's basically like you know can ask each other three questions and then and that's it it will be like well what what what three things you know so like what's your favorite thing you did today these will be different every day. I think last night we were like what was your favorite yeah what was the favorite thing you ate today uh what was the kindest thing you did today I thought it was a great question um and what you're looking forward to tomorrow and but the reason we got to three questions was that it was a case of like you know kick get back from school want to play want to do all of the other bits and so I wonder how your day was it's like well this was kind of the let's get into three questions and then then you've got to think really carefully if I want to really find out how your day was how good is my questions to find out how good how good your day was and the bits that I you know that I I value which is the you know that's why I loved that you know so what is the kind of thing you did I was like I love that question. So I just steal it and ask it back. You know and then you get a sense in there. So yeah so you know and I and I think you know I'd I really like the balance of of the different areas. You know I'd love I would love to spend more time like coaching um and involved in in that and I you know there are aspirations in that in that space as well. But where I'm at now you know really lucky with the balance and I and I like how it is enough and I feel like as long as you think how can I take some from here that makes me better that I can use in across the different areas. So whether that's you know if you've run a board meeting one day like what are the things I did well today that would be good across all of the roles that I did or what are the bits that you go actually if I can avoid doing that then I won't make that mistake in Sweden or I won't make that mistake you know at home for example.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Well I love it mate I just love it how you're talking about how your leadership's evolved and shifted and drawn from all these different experiences. I actually reckon something as simple as like that three questions that you're practicing with the kids can actually just transform form into your your coaching three questions for your players around either a tactical thing around the game or just in general to get to know them better and develop better relationships. It's cool that you're drawing your leadership improvements from outside of the game as well and and with this um external stuff with the gymnastics and the power to inspire it's super cool mate really cool um Alex we've come to the time where it's it's time to just sort of wrap it up mate we always wrap it up with this question because it draws a lot of good things out and it's this what's one belief that you hold about culture or leadership that you agree with that you reckon your peers would disagree with?

SPEAKER_01 54:09

I had a couple of thoughts on this because again I think it's a great question. What one thing I've I've thought from the star and I and I I can't remember who it was I think it was the Starbucks CEO years and years ago he said um sometimes you've got to create what you want to be part of and that that's something I've always taken so whether you know particularly with the LAMs and the and the growth that we had there in with the UK programme and with Sweden actually going actually yeah I really want to coach a you know a championship

Focus On Winning And Cutting Noise

SPEAKER_01 54:40

a rugby europe championship side well actually at the stage where I was was Georgia or Portugal going to appoint me. No but actually if I take Sweden from 54th to in the conference through to the championship then I'm coaching championship side and I've and I've helped you know I've helped create that alongside the players and the management group that you've got and you know a belief I have is that it doesn't matter what you've got you can achieve what you want if you put some thought to it and you and you and you think around the resources. There are obviously at some point there's always a always at some point there's a ceiling potentially or it needs something to break through that ceiling but I think that's a that's a belief I've always held I I I think people would maybe agree with that or yeah so that's maybe not one they disagree with. I think one that maybe people would particularly now is I I I really trust my coaching eye and my gut. So like my leadership like what is it that I've seen that that I think particularly in the world of AI now where you can't even believe what you've necessarily see unless you're actually seeing their eye so but that kind of like really trusting my you know there's so much video there's data and we don't necessarily have all of that you know we we've got a bit more you know Gunnar's amazing capturing all our training getting stats you know we get some of the S and C data and then you look further up like what's the you know if we go into the championship what other data would we want and to operate by but I think you know some sometimes you're like actually I I can see whether these players can work harder or work for longer or can I get more out of them. I don't have to trust the GPS data so when someone like Neo says if you had a bit more money what would you spend it on? It wouldn't be on that type of stuff. It would be on it would be on people it'd be on the environment it'd be you know can we can we go can can we travel somewhere and do a three day tour somewhere probably for for the Swedes but rather than you know and trust my eye trust my team that's around me and yes I think the data and the and and that's what's really important at the very top level the way I would see it from the outside and again I'm not I'm not into a tier one side so I you know I couldn't argue this um this point strongly but I would feel like I'd want to trust what I see and what I know of the players and what I know that we want to achieve together. And I think that could be an argumentative point if you were have as we progress.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Mate that's that's awesome. I love it mate I love I love that sort of the the context you put around that to make it your own. Hey now Alex if I may I'd love to sum up this awesome conversation we've had today with just with my three key takeaways that I've absolutely loved hearing from you and this awesome experience you've had with the Swedish national team and the other stuff you're doing. And they are these number one is don't shy away from results. I love to have the start of this conversation you actually made that really important that results are actually the reality and culture doesn't operate in isolation from some of the stuff it actually enhances results. And when you make everyone aware that results are just what they are it puts it in a lovely context with culture. I think that's really important. Number two, I love the values you put on stories especially when they are culturally rich stories and we just mentioned that those small stories are what humans love and that stories make ideas stick. They spark imagination of what's possible and that's certainly something you've done within the Swedish crew and then you've gone about making those adjustments. Number three is that your leadership evolves and shifts over time and circumstances

Innovating With Three-Man Lineouts

SPEAKER_00 58:20

and you talk about the mind shift step shift that has changed from you from underdogs to now dogs and how you shift your leadership around that context. You've also drawn from all aspects of your life that you've found in little areas of life and we mentioned the three questions that you do with your parenting and how easily relatable that is to your coaching. And some of those experiences from the nonprofit you do and also on the board has direct impact on your leadership and how it's evolved over time. And I think all coaches can actually work on their leadership and evolve it in all aspects of their life. And if you do that you'll be a far better coach as well. Alex what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Well thank you so much it's been uh it's great I love these conversations and I love what you're doing as well this is uh amazing stuff so very privileged to be asked to have this conversation so thank you for having me as well