Joe Launchbury on Leadership, Culture & Accountability in Rugby

What really builds culture when results, bodies, and time are under pressure? We sit down with Joe Launchbury—70-cap England lock, longtime Wasps leader, and current Harlequin—to unpack how simple behaviors, sharp communication, and quiet ownership become competitive edges. Joe’s definition of culture is disarmingly clear: do what you said you would do, through good and bad. From coffee cups and punctuality to learning your role, he shows how small standards compound into trust—and how trust becomes performance in a sport of tiny margins.

Joe opens up about evolving from workhorse lock to senior statesman, and why the best veterans act as bridges, not informants, between coaches and the locker room. He explains how knowing the person behind the player unlocks better conversations, how leaders can surface frustrations early, and why the healthiest environments flatten hierarchy so young players can speak up. We also dig into the modern coaching challenge: less time on grass, more reliance on meetings, and the risk of drowning athletes in clips. Joe argues for clarity over volume, sharing the five-word vote of confidence from Sean Edwards that fueled his debut and still shapes how he coaches today.

From a late path that ran through a supermarket bakery to captaining Wasps at 24, Joe traces the growth of authentic leadership. He describes himself as a Monday-to-Friday captain—driving standards, aligning roles, and modeling behaviors—while letting others own the big Saturday speeches until that skill grew. Along the way, we highlight the coaches who empowered him, the peer learning that raised game IQ, and the study of sport directorship that prepares him for life after playing.

If you care about leadership, team culture, or high performance in rugby, this conversation delivers practical ideas you can use: simplify messages, empower experts, and make the smallest standards nonnegotiable. Enjoy the stories, steal the frameworks, and tell us—what small standard moves the needle most for your team? Subscribe, share with a teammate, and leave a review to help others find the show.

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Transcript

Setting The Leadership Lens

SPEAKER_01 1:06

None of us have all the answers, do we? None of us have about anything in life, really, all the answers. You're not snitching on on changing or it's not it's certainly not that role. You're but you're really trying to you're trying to give as much info to to these coaches to to to make the best decisions they can. You get coaches that along the way, coaches who have more than just like a bit of belief in you, they almost have like a a desperation for you to go out and and and make it happen. And the small things have to matter. I think that um we we operate in a game with very small margins. Um and I think those those things do matter. I used to kind of see myself as a Monday to Friday captain rather than a Saturday captain. I thought I'd myself pretty clear around around a message to a player who goes out after half-time and does the complete opposite to what I said. And there's an element of frustration there, but there's also an element of understanding that's completely my fault.

Introducing Joe Launchbury

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Joe Launchbrief. Joe is a legend at 34 years old. He is still playing rugby at the very highest level of the game as a lock forward in the engine room. He debuted for Watts in 2010 and played right the way through until the club folded 155 games later. After a brief stint in Japan, he is back in the UK pay for Harlequins. Along the way, he has amassed 70 caps for England, including England Player of the Year. Joe is a big man, 125 kilos, 198 metres tall, with a big heart, half out into stair with a great family to boot. He has lived and breathed professional rugby for half of his lifetime now. Joe Launchbury, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Cheers, man. Thanks for the uh the intro. You didn't have to get my weight in there. It crept up a little bit now over the years, I think, as well, unfortunately. But um good to be here, looking forward to having the chat.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, mate. Well, yeah, I hate to hopefully that's not uh that's not the case then, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Like that wouldn't be uh if anything, it's a bit on the light side, so we'll we'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

I love it. Now, Joe, how are you? How has um 34 years old playing rugby? How's it been? How's the overall picture of you playing professional rugby for what is half your lifetime?

Extending Careers And Evolving Roles

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, when you put it right, it's it's been a it's been a long time. It's been I've been so fortunate, like you said, it it kind of your schoolboy dream to to play a couple of years of pro rugby um and for me to still be going now and still loving it. That's I think that's the main thing, still really enjoying my role's slightly different now, and uh maybe don't get on the out on the pitch quite as much as I'd love to, but the fact that I'm still coming in today, coming into work every day with a big smile on my face, still absolutely loving, loving what I'm doing. Yeah, I feel so so thankful for the career I've had really.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah. Well well just for the coaches that are unaware, how does the role change as you sort of get a bit longer in the tooth as a player? What's the shift there?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, I think um maybe an understanding that no matter how much work you do on being professional and looking after your body and all those sort of bits, I guess uh time does catch up on you slightly and uh can't can't always 100% do things that you you to you take for granted maybe a few years ago. So I probably can't play 80 minutes week on week anymore. It's probably something that is probably not particularly good for me or or the team. So it's about I guess managing my minutes and then I also think maximising I guess my involvement in in the environment. I I really love helping the younger players. I know a lot of players say that. Um I genuinely do. I I I really enjoy kind of that sort of role, helping the young boys here in a I guess a slight mentoring role for some of the foot young forwards here who are extremely talented. I also love uh assisting and helping any way I can. With we've got a great coaching team here, we've got a fantastic head coach in Jason Gilmore, who's who's pretty young and uh and and used to role, and if I can help him anyway, I see that as a real important part of my role and and likewise, I guess some of our leadership team in terms of the players. Um like I said, if I can help with my experience in any way possible, I see that as a a huge part of my job as well as get on the get on the pitch from time to time.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Is it frustrating when you're when you're sort of your your mind's there but your your body's not uh playing ball? Is it uh is is it frustration or have you sort of resigned to that fact and you're and you're finding other ways to keep motivated and stimulated?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Uh if I'm honest, probably a little bit of both from brilliantly honest, Ben. It's kind of like, yeah, 100% I've as I just talked about, there's there's certainly different things that motivate me now, certain things where I feel but for me, if I I'm always desperate to add value to an environment. I feel like if I if I can't do that for whatever reason, uh I find the environment quite hard, I I find it hard to I guess find my place. But if if I feel I'm adding value, there's obviously different ways to add value, but um and maybe that has slightly changed. But yeah, for sure. Um not being able to maybe do what you could have done a few years ago is can be hard to take, but it's the the journey every player goes on. We've got a lot of really, really young players here who are born in crazy late, late birthdays, um, and they can't remember they can't remember what I was going to rugby. So I've got to try and remind them that back in the day I used to be alright.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, I can assure you I was faster. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, well I wasn't much faster, but I was definitely a little bit faster.

Adding Value Beyond Minutes

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I love it, mate. And so I love how you just mentioned there that yeah, you love adding value to an environment. And how how do coaches keep you adding value? Like do they sit down and chat to you and say this is what we want from you with where you are at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Yeah, I think there's definitely definitely that. I feel like communication I have with with sort of staff members around how I can add value is so important. I think the I think it starts with with know it knowing me. I feel like if there's a knowing me as a person, knowing me like externally, me outside the game, what my interests are, what my passions are outside the game, my family, bits of that, then it makes me immediately sort of have added value for for that relationship and and likely to give a lot more to it. Um and I also think the the other the other thing is is coaches and and players who none of us have all the answers, do we? None of us have about anything in life, really all the answers. I feel like the that openness to to come for a bit of advice or to come for help about certain things, I think it's is what really I guess gets gets me going and makes me feel like I'm really adding value is around this piece of it's a collaborative effort. It's there may be a bunch of people at the sort at the top of the organization, but we're we're all here to try and help each other. Yeah, I definitely get I definitely get value from that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Well, it's it's actually quite a um really important role that because you're almost the link between the coaching crew and the playing crew. You're close you're sort of halfway age-wise between the coaches and and like you said, the young players that are there. So you're almost that that bridge for a coach. So if a coach can sort of um manage you well, it actually helps the environment massively. Helps the coaches create the environment and the culture they want by managing their senior players to be to really add value, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Yeah, and I and I also really hope it works the other way as well. I really hope I am uh I guess a good sounding board and and sort of advice for them around the f I'm in the change room, I'm I'm kind of feeling that side of it in the I can I can see what's annoying the boys, I can see what what's kind of not quite working, uh, what the frustrations are, um, even whether it's tactical or or completely not, it could be something very trivial. Um and I always see I I always think top leadership in in any organization is quite can be quite lonely. It could be you're up there, I mean you want you all know as well as anyone, it can be you're up there, and and I think a lot of people expect you to have all the answers and expect you to have all the clear direction, and I'm not saying that's not necessarily the case, but I think having the ability to get information from from various sources, and I see a ro a certain role for myself in that regard to try and inform the coaches as as best as possible, and and it then it's up for them to do what they wish with that information. But yeah, I certainly see whether it whether it's a a role between the the players and the coaches, and I guess as being the oldest player here, I g I do see that as a big responsibility for myself because um I guess I kind of do fit into that into that blend of of trying to help both camps for sure.

Senior Players As Cultural Bridges

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, I I think it's almost like a you're almost like a diplomat, aren't you? Um based inside the camp. But but it it is interesting, man. I and I'm not sure that a whole lot of coaches would sort of seen the value in in your sort of role, but it's it's matt a really important role. Like you said, leadership is can be very lonely. So bringing people in and working with them to help draw out information from all different sources is is a really cool concept.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It's pretty informal. I wouldn't say it's like a formal, we don't sit down and have it's not like a real formal, you sit down, you schedule meetings, talk about it. It might just be a very informal, informal chat in the it's sort of in the hallway and like a check-in. And that could be with any of the coaches with any of the play. I yeah, I just I I hope I guess information is is power in that regard sometimes. It's not a case of you're not snitching on on change rooms or on people. It's not it's certainly not that role, you're but you're really trying to you're trying to give as much info to these coaches to to make the best decisions they can.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

And it's also, I guess, it's like a big brother role too, right? You're able to say stuff to the coaches about, say, the young fellas, which other young fellas might not be able to or have confidence to say to to the coach, whereas you are more than happy to say, mate, so-and-so's needing a little bit of this or that and struggle with that.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

A lot of, like I said earlier, we do have a really young team here, and and in rugby in general seems to be well, I'm getting getting older, but there's definitely getting there, those guys seem to be getting younger. There is that. There's a, I guess, an element of I think people are getting a lot better at speaking up and speaking their mind now. And I I feel the environments like ours here, I'd like to think that everyone's really comfortable in their own skin and everyone's really comfortable to bring their opinion and it's and it's valued. There's not a huge hierarchy here at all. But naturally, if you're a young, 18, 19-year-old still trying to figure out their way in the game, you're probably not going to go knock on the coach's door too many times, and that's completely understandable. So, yeah, there's certainly it definitely works that way as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yeah, I find it uh just a fascinating reflection. At 34, you're considered sort of the old guy of the team. Well, you are, you're the oldest, but in in the scope of life, you're still considered you're still the young kid.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Well, I know. It's a strange people say that now, it's like I say at the school gates and with my kids, and I'll be like, oh, they'll be like, What are you doing? I'm I'm getting old now, and they'll look at me and be like, No, you're not, you're not getting old. Yeah, I'm getting old for rugby, I guess. But no plenty of plenty of life to come.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Well, it's almost like that sort of pet analogy where like cats, I don't know, they live 15 years. So if you're a 15-year-old cat or dog, you're considered at the end of the tether. But that's not that's not old in human years. It it is important for people to realize that like at 34, you're at you're you're almost like in in a working sense, you're like 60. That's the equivalent of being 60 years old in life because you're coming to the end of your sort of your working career. And if you play for 10 years, that's the equivalent of working in the same job for 40 years in a normal life. So that's that's how quickly you have to learn and develop, and it's it's all supercharged.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yeah. It's fascinating. I I find that stuff uh fascinating. And you and your learning as a player has to relate to that a little bit. Like that's how quick you learn.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Everything is so condensed, and that everything's so you've really players now that if you're not, I guess if you're not pushing into thirsty, but sort of 21, 20, like really, really young now, you probably you then get to a you really got to start to do some of your some of your good work quite early in your career, because we we l we operate in a salary capped league and everything that comes with that, you're constantly looking for younger players to come in and break through. So you've you've got to get a pretty quick march on in your career nowadays. There's there's certainly pressure to do that. Um the rate of learning, the rate of expectation on some of those young guys now is is probably certainly higher than than there was. But then I would I'd add that the level of professionalism from our academy right through to like the school and the schools these guys go to that the way they turn up now, um, they finish school in the July and they'll they'll come here like a week later. And they're they're they're on the whole, they're ready to go. They're so professional. And I was nothing like that. I was I was so far from that at 18, 19. A bit of that was on me, but a bit of that was the system at the time, and there's certainly now a a level of professionalism from those young guys there, but they do have to hit the ground running. Um you might get what you might get one contract, you might get two. It's kind of um you've got you like you haven't got that long to prove yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

You you were working at the bakery at Sainsbury's, weren't you?

Accelerated Pathways And Young Pros

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah, that was. I was, yeah, so I was definitely not ready. Well, mate, why don't we flick to that?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Because that's an interesting one about yourself, too. You were a bit of a late starter, like you, as I understand, you started up at Bath Uni and had a bit of a and then maybe didn't go, and then you went to Sainsbury's. You've mentioned previously that potentially your balance between schooling and rugby wasn't quite where you wanted it. How how was that transition for you into professional rugby?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Uh I I I think one of the reasons why I'm I spoke earlier about being so interested in in helping younger players is because I I know I didn't get that stage in of of my life or my career right. The juggle of life from 15 to 18, or or maybe 19 probably, of trying to trying to do well at school, trying to get good grades, trying to have a social life, trying to understand who you were as a person and as a as a bloke, really. Um and also the pressures of like I like I said then, trying to make it in professional rugby. I don't really think I did any of them well. I think I did all of them okay. I don't think I I excelled in any of those areas. I left school with with fairly good grades and like a an i an intent to play rugby, but I don't think I ever quite mastered any of it. Um there's a lot going on. So then I had a year out of rugby um and I was I was I was relatively ready to just kind of step away from the idea of playing professional rugby. I I wanted to go to, as you said then, Bath University, and one of the main reasons was they're heavily attached to the rugby club here in England, um Bath Rugby, and they got a great setup, they work really well skimmer. And I think in the back of my mind I thought, oh, if I go there for three years, by the third year, there could be a chance that I could get a bit of interest from the club, and you never know what will happen. But that that was as much of it, as much of it sort of amounted to. I was gonna spend my sort of gap year saving money at Sainsbury's and then go travelling around the world. And my school coach like basically begged me to go and play for the local good team. I was just gonna go and play with my mates at the local club, and he basically said, No, you're you're you're too good for this. You you need to go and do something with with what you can do. So I went to the local club and probably about 45 minutes away, and they were in a national two in England, it's like our fourth level of fourth league of rugby. Um and I played there, and Will Green is a guy you may have played against prop at WAS for a number of years, there through the glory years at WAS, and he was the head coach at the time and never really put two and two together, but he got some guys to come and watch me play, and and obviously the rest of his kind of history went to went to WAS and had sort of twelve and a half really happy years there. So my my point of that really was from a coaching point of view, is the direction I got from the the the coach's name's Andy Turner. He was my school coach and he's become someone who has followed my whole career with a whole lot of interest. And I think you get coaches of that along the way, coaches who have more than just like a bit of belief in you, they almost have like a a desperation for you to go out and and make it happen. And yeah, I'm I'm very thankful for that that sort of interjection because my parents are brilliant and so supportive, but they're not pushy parents at all. They're not that's not their style. They would let me find my own way, um, and maybe getting him to kind of almost I think he actually drove me to the training ground for the for the first session. So that was how intent he was on me going there and making it work.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Coaches who have more than just belief in you. That's fascinating. And because your parents weren't rugby people, were they? Didn't no one in your family played rugby, so you were sort of the anomaly, which is rare, right?

From Sainsbury’s To Wasps

SPEAKER_01 16:46

It was rare, and I guess that's I think in a way it probably helped me because no one my my dad's from a military background, um, and I've got so much to thank him for around, I guess, some of my the way I conduct myself and and although it definitely taught me all those sort of things. But he like you said, no real rugby background, and rugby was never, as far as I was concerned, and my school wasn't a massive rugby school either. So there was no it wasn't like this is the pathway, rugby is a a viable career. I think if I said at school I want to be a fresh rugby player, I don't know what the teachers would have said to that. So I actually kept it part of my personality at the time. I was very introverted, I actually kept it extremely quiet and didn't tell a soul really. It was kind of my own private project to get on within the background, and all my friends went off and did the the usual route. So it seems like talking about well, it was a long time ago, it seems like a lifetime ago, really, but it though all those learnings, I guess, have been a huge part in, I guess, in because you every career is full of moments of ups and downs, aren't they? And that was, I guess, a moment which I'm actually really thankful for. A, it took me to WAS, which became my home and a place that I loved, but also it taught me so much about resilience at at such a young age and the setbacks. And I feel like sometimes you can get them a bit later in your hugby career, and you've you've had it playing sailing until then, you can't choose your path, can you? But yeah, um I'm pretty thankful for mine.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Mate, I actually reckon that's a that's a real powerful thing, like that you've had you had that resilience to start with. You know, those these hits early on, and then if you manage to push through them, they actually serve you pretty well. And you and you'd be an amazing example of that. And it serves you well, like with all the little ups and downs along the way.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, I think it also shows that I think what it also gave me is uh something which I still hold today is the club I went and played for, at Worthing, amazing club, brilliant. I I probably was a little bit not out of love with Rugby, it's an easy thing to say. I still love the game, but I definitely was a little bit. I went there and these guys, a lot of them were teachers, a lot of them worked on building sites and were tradies, um, and they would work all day, like flat out, bash of their bodies the English winter, all day, 12 hour days, and they'd rock up at training and they would absolutely love it. They'd be asking for contact, they'd be asking for everything. And that for me, I reckon I still don't get me wrong, there are days as a professional player when you think, plan me, do I have to go out and do more contact at 34 with a bike with a bunch of teenagers. But on the whole, I still, what we now, that was 2009, so yeah, 17 years later, I still remember that feeling of being at Wervin and those guys doing a hard, an honest hard day's work and then coming and loving their rubber. And I try and, yeah, like I said, there's easier days than others, but on the whole, to have that to rock up to work with with an enjoyment and a love for it, yeah. I feel like that was a another amazing lesson I I got from a young age.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Well, mate, I'll the thing you said uh that I really enjoyed is you had your own private project, and that was you were internally driven, you had that internal spark, and you went about doing it your way, and without a whole lot of guidance from your parents who weren't rugby people, you just chipped away and had some good advice from coaches. But there's something powerful I reckon in that, mate, that around and I want to raise it because sometimes as coaches we think players should share their goals, should be really open about you know their desires and what they're chasing and all that stuff. But I guess you're a good example of someone that just a little bit internally driven, a little bit um that just quietly went about what doing it the way you wanted to do it. And I think there's really powerful coaches that not everyone needs to share their goals. And sometimes sharing goals isn't a motivator for people. Would that be the case for for you?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, I think that's really fair. I think there's there's certainly been times when I'm when I have and when I've been part of something a bit bigger than me, um I I guess around I think probably around World Cup cycles and stuff with with you with the national team, probably some bigger goals there that we've set as a team. But yeah, even to this day now, I I still write notes on my phone around even from little small goals. I I'm I'm currently struggling with a little bit of an injury. I write goals around that, I write goals around how I can get back from that as quick as I can, the best shape I can. I'm uh yeah, I I believe that I guess I am a without really thinking about it. I still am very intrinsically motivated. Um obviously I've got a family and stuff who who are the biggest motivation I can have, but I am still that 18, 19 year old who was desperate to to do something for himself, and I guess I still am that now.

Mentors Who Bet Big On You

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I love it, mate. I think it's it's actually inspiring to hear when you come into the back end of a career that you're still doing the same things you did at the start, just for slightly different points. It's cool.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Right. Now, Joe, you have had a a stellar career, and um what we like to talk about here is is culture. So how how would you define culture from your experience of professional rugby?

SPEAKER_01 21:26

It's quite it's it's wide range, isn't it, culture? It's an amazing word. When you're in sport, it becomes so topical and and and so highly talked about. But for me, it's in the simplest way I could probably put it, it's the ability for like your whole squad, whether that's players, coaches, batram staff, to fundamentally do what they say they're gonna do. I think every team we've been a part of, you come in a pre-season day one, you sit down, there's either values that are pre-existing from years gone by, or there's new values, or there's behaviours that we want to live by, behaviors that we want to be proud of, they go on the wall, or you have big sort of conversations around how they're gonna look. And then I think your culture is once that's been decided, I mean your culture then is how often how well they're lived out through good and through bad times. And it's not lived out by a leader stone at the front, it's lived out by sort of everyone. The reason why I mentioned like backroom staff is they play such a huge role in the in the culture of a club. They're the guys who probably aren't getting selected and picked every week. They're guys who can be real level and and be great people, as you all know, some amazing people in the in the back in the back staff of rugby clubs, some of the best people you you can meet, really. Uh so they all feed into into for me what what is good culture and and I think bad culture is is is also I guess a a a not living out of those um sort of dictated to the ups and downs of results can really affect that. And and probably you then fall into, I guess, a little bit of a desperation around almost if you don't have culture, you're trying, you're scrambling so hard to to get it back, and and that can sometimes be a head coach or or a collection of people at the front almost saying what it should be like. But yeah, for me it's it's how often can people live out the attitudes and the behaviours that you set out for your team.

Defining Culture In Simple Terms

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Well, what are Some specific examples from your point of view in a change room or in a team that you when you come into it or you walk around it or you show someone around the environment that you go, yeah, this is this is an example right here of what I enjoy. From your perspective, what because it's very different from a playing perspective to a coach perspective, right? Because you're in there, you're in the engine room, you can feel it. What are you feeling around the culture?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

I think there's there's some like real small behaviors, but not I guess nothing small, nothing small. If you everything small adds up to I will talk about how you sort of leave the change room. I know that your blokes are massive on that, how you how you leave the change room, how you don't leave your coffee cup around, all those things that right through to your time, you're not being on time for meetings, be on time for physio appointments. Uh if you're not on time, you're you have no respect for that person you're late for, whether it's the team or whether it's a physio, so time for me is a hugely important part of what you do. And then as a player, I guess your your diligence comes into that. So whatever your values are around that, but we talk a lot about we're okay with with with errors, we're okay with errors that are forced either by the opposition or they're forced through you through an intensity and the skill levels just let you down. But if your skill error is based around clarity or knowledge or something which is in your control and that you've either you've just knocked off on that job, I guess they're the bits that for me are culturally really, really important.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

I think it think it's a fun uh really good example, Joe. You just talked about not leaving your coffee cup out. Yeah, more isn't it? Yeah. It seems like a you when you when you say it like that, you kind of go, Oh, yeah, yeah. Sort of a trivial piece. But then you think about it like in your family context. I know we have teenage uh kids. When they leave their stuff out on the bench, like the their cups and things, it gets frustrating. When you have to keep saying, put your cup away. And then it becomes a sort of angst around, you know, oh gosh. But then the days you come home and my teenage daughter's tidy the bench and put all the cups away, I go, Oh, oh, thanks, love, that's awesome. And she's like, Oh, um, do you mind if I go out tonight? And I'm like, Yeah, no problem, do whatever you want. And it just creates a whole different mood. And whilst that's kind of she's doing it for a reason, but just in general, if someone's seen to be making an effort and and and working hard, you feel more obliged to be the same. And then if everyone's doing that, the compounding effect is like everyone sort of feels like everyone else is chipping in and doing their bit, working for a cause. And it's the same in a household, a family household, right? Like if the children here are constantly putting their cups away as you know, as automatic decision, then you kind of go, Oh, this is cool, right. And as a parent, you go, Righto, let's you know, I'll do my bit. Let's do a little bit more. And it's a compounding affair. I th I think it's a is that the same in your household with cups with your kids?

Small Standards, Big Margins

SPEAKER_01 26:46

You'd have to ask my wife whether I put my cup away or not, but no I I think and whether that point is officer coffee cup's just one one example of I guess But if you're gonna if you're gonna do that sort of behaviour around you, you're obviously not showing a someone someone else got to clean that away, whether it's uh support staff or it's a level of respect there, and then it kind of like, where does that extend to? Does that extend to cutting corners on the training pitch, cutting corners on the pitch? Like obviously you can I know the military are massive on on all those really, really small behaviours, and I'm not saying we're anywhere near like that, but I think there's definitely a and the small things have to matter. I think this um we we operate in a game with very small margins, um I and I think those those things do matter. And also rugby's full of great people, so why don't you why don't you behave that way as as consistently as you can and sort of all buy into what the team are trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Well, I guess the the other one too, I know this is uh going back to this parenting example, but if the kids are putting away their cups and cleaning the bench, then I've got more time and more energy to actually cook the meal. Because I don't have to do that. So by doing those little things that you talk about, you're actually freeing up people's time to do the things they're good at and what their job actually is.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

100% yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Right, mate, and when we're talking about um culture and coaches, what's some of the reflection on who's who's some of the best coaches you've had across your career that have that have helped shape culture for you? Who's who's some good examples that um that do it well?

Coaches Who Build Belief

SPEAKER_01 28:14

I've been so fortunate of working with some amazing um coaches across across my career and and and all of them have had huge huge impact on that and and and looked at it probably from different ways. I think you've got to be quite um quite true to your personality as well. I think you can be potentially something which is not and the players can see through it. It's something they're just like in their everyday interactions, in their sort of one-on-one chats, they're not that, and then suddenly when they're trying to live the behaviour of the team and the culture of the team, they become so you I think you've got to be you've got to be quite unique and genuine. And someone who was great for that for me was in our early in our early career was was was Da Young at Was. He was a um a great bloke, he used comedy really, really well. Uh he kind of lightened the mood. We were a team who were struggling to be fair. In my first year at WAS, a lot of the senior players all retired with injury, and that was fantastic for guys like me and a few of my mates who were who were all young. And we got an opportunity straight away, but it probably wasn't great for the club, it was great for us, but um it gave us exposure straight away, and he almost became like a real father figure to us and and kind of really protected us from the outside and allowed us to go out and try and be the best we could be. And we we struggled through that first year, and then I guess as time came on, he was a yeah, I guess a constant for the the big first part of my career. I feel like he got that um that culture piece really, really like right with a young group, a young, inexperienced group. Um he I guess took on a bit more of a of a coach leader role and allowed us just to go out and play, and and that really helped right through to a bit more current now. I think someone who get who installed so much belief in me in such a simple way was was Sean Edwards. Um Sean Edwards was before die. He was interim head coach at WAS when I got when I made my debut, and Sean's not a man of huge amount of words, but it's probably the best thing for me rather than I feel like a the thing for a coach, I guess the hard thing for a coach, having not being one myself, is when you've got a new player or a young player into the team, you want to give them the right amount of information to go out and perform. You want to make sure they're suitably prepped, suitably planned, ready to go so they can go out and rip in. Where Sean told me I was playing, and he followed that up with, You ready, son? Off you go. And that was actually all that was like that was the extent of our conversation. And that for me at the time was I look back on reflection now and having known Sean better, maybe he did that with everyone. But for me as a young, as a young player, the belief that put into me around he wasn't like, right, you're playing this weekend, but we need you to do this and this and think about this. And he just said, right, we're picking you this weekend, you're you're good to go. Like you're you're ready with we think you're ready to play, you deserve to play, off you go, go and play. And um, yeah, I definitely think though that sort of it was belief in a slightly different way, maybe not really, really conventional, but again, a number of years on, I still am really thankful for that sort of small conversation, but yeah, it really helped.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

I think that's um that's a really good one, Joe. The right amount of information that a coach can deliver. And like you talked about with Sean, it's it's actually very little. You don't need a whole lot. Like, and in general, probably the more information you give someone, the more you're bogging down someone's brain's bandwidth to process it. And your ready son just creates the belief. And what more can you say? Like, if you were to bog them down with information, like make sure you get your squeeze and your arm wrap and your head positioning right, like then you're not gonna be out there.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

I I I can understand it. I can really understand it. I've worked with a lot of coaches who who are who are so uh they'll show a lot of clips in the meetings, and I can completely understand it, because for them, they say say we're playing Northampton this weekend, it'll be like, right, every single strike that Northamptons have run in the last month, it'll kind of because in his mind, if they run that play and I've not prepped you, then that that's my responsibility as a coach and it's my job and I've let you boys down. And I can completely see that side of it. But then I think from a playing point of view, if you're if you're like fundamentals and your your system is strong, then the team the other team can kind of do within reason a little bit of whatever they want. So like the simplicity of message, the simplicity of like executing your role, which which you've done hundreds, thousands of times before, I think can trump an overload of message.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

I absolutely agree, mate. Well, yeah, the right amount of information that's that's a huge part of the art of coaching, is to actually understand. And do you think coaches that are really intrinsically themselves that know themselves, know they have they they are better at just being able to go, less is more?

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, I definitely one of the biggest changes I think I've feeling coaching in my in my career is we are as players, we're we're quite heavily monitored now in terms of what we can and can't do. GPS plays a big part in in our week, and I think where before you'd probably spend more time, your length of training session may be slightly longer, and the coaches will be able to properly coach on grass, um, impart information on on the grass, spend time going through why something's not worked, almost like positioning a player into into the right position where where now we train for 45 minutes to an hour, probably tops, an hour an hour would be the the most we probably train. So your your time on pitch to coach is extremely limited. And so then what you become as a coach, and I think you become so polished in your delivery in the meeting room, it becomes like such a huge part of your week. How can you deliver either a game plan or a way of playing to help you win at the weekend? And you as a defence coach, you might have 10 to 12 minutes. Literally, maybe even not that. When some of that adds attention span, you've probably got half of that. You probably say you're how can you fit a package which is exciting to the players, makes sense, and is easy to understand in like a short space of time because you don't get that time to coach on the grass, I don't think, anymore. And I think for me that's been the biggest change. Coaches have almost gone from almost gone from being on grass coaches to keynote speakers almost in and that delivery of message to the players has become so important.

Information Load Vs. Clarity

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Do you think it's an important skill set for a coach to learn to be in a sense be a keynote speaker?

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Um I wish it was maybe less important, but I I I do think it is. Yeah, I do think um as you said then about your personality, about how you can engage a room, how you can make rugby's a I I think rugby's a relatively simple game. Of course it's got some complications and some nuance to it, but it the the same thing is kind of um the same things that the guys are talking to me about now were probably talking to me about five, ten years ago, in terms of the the fundamentals of the rugby, the basics of rugby. So then each week it's like how do I package that into something which is deliverable to the players, exciting for the players, and something which the most important part is they can actually go in action. Um and yeah, I think that's a huge skill. So I've dipped my toe in over the last last period of time in terms of and it yeah, it's it's a skill, and the guys who can do it best, I'd yeah, I tip my hat to them really.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

How was you dipping your toe into it?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

I've been doing a little bit over the last few weeks here at Quinn's actually around what's next, I guess, after rugby, transition-wise, and and the club here, as they have always been with my time, they're amazing at helping me explore what comes next after rugby. And yeah, I've been doing a bit of coaching over the last sort of two, three, four weeks. Uh we're in a slightly different competition at the moment in the Premier Cup. Uh, we play a slightly younger team, and it's allowed me to do a bit of forward coaching. And I've I've really enjoyed it, and it's probably um all the things I I guess I've thought about as a player about coaching, it's been yeah, it's been nice to be on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

What's the difference this? What what have you found? Anything surprised you or we did I'm still at 6 p.m.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

now English time, still in the facility. It's uh no, it's been it's been great. I think there's been I think for a for as a player, I think one of the skills of the player, and one of the skills that I don't think I was the best at anything as a player. I think I I I was solid and worked extremely hard and didn't make any mistakes. But I think one of the things I did think was a a strength of mine was I was quite coachable. I think I was if if I believed in something and the coach told me something, I'd like to think that more often than not, I'll be able to action that pretty quickly, and either into my game or into the into the team plan. And I thought that was a bit of a skill of mine, but I guess as a coach now, the understanding is that not everyone, not everyone it can it can take a whole different way for the penalty drop. In instance last week, I thought I'd make myself pretty clear around around a messaging to a player he goes out after half time and does the complete opposite to what I said. There's an element of frustration there, but there's also an element of understanding that that's completely my fault. It's completely my fault as a coach that I've for whatever reason, although I think I'm crystal clear, he clearly he's not a stupid guy, he's a clever guy. Um, there's obviously been something there which I just not delivered clearly enough. So there's definitely a bit around that for me, around delivering a message and how to make things stick. But no, I've really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

I think that's a that's a really good coachable point in general. Like um, it takes a lot of different ways to make the penny drop for different people, and that's because people are people and people have different personalities, as we all know. And what seems obvious to one is not always to another, and vice versa. And so part of your process probably now is to experiment with all these different ways as a new coach, right?

Meetings, GPS, And Message Craft

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Definitely. I I feel maybe a little bit, I don't feel sorry for them, but uh for some of the younger guys, as we talked about earlier about the time on field, the sort of the amount of preparation you have to do off the pitch now in terms of if you're only going to spend a maybe a couple of hours a week, two, three hours a week on the training field, you have to be doing, you have to be getting your learning, you have to get your information in different ways, and whether that's walkthroughs, whether that's team meetings, whether that's individual analysis. Where for me, I I felt I was uh I learned by doing. I could take an information from a meeting, but I the best way for me to do it was to get reps, and I guess I'm quite thankful that I played at a time when we would be out there for hours on end and we'd do reps after reps. And I think that that definitely helped me. There's courses ways around it, and a lot of the stuff that the guys do now is is brilliant and they can get their skills in different ways, but you do have to be a little bit creative with it. You have to be a bit creative with I think if you just do the team session and that's you done, I think as a young player you're probably not getting you're not getting enough out of the program. So it's it's definitely uh that that probably goes down to everyone learns in different ways, and you have to find pretty quickly as a young player and with the help of a coach what the best way is for you to learn.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah, I think that's I think that's fascinating, man. I think that ability to just understand yourself too, right? Like as a player, like uh the there's the team is for the team, but there's there's elements where players need to actually think for themselves around what they need to do for them, and that might be extras, that meant additional sessions. And if you're waiting for the coach to deliver that, the coach is generalizing doing the whole team. Players got to be aware of that and to know, actually, if I want to be the best I can be, I've got to do a little bit extra for me. Did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah, I I feel like I was actually really I felt like I was really lucky. I feel like I um I think you get a bit lucky with your academy intake. I feel like my academy intake are still great mates of mine now. And we were we actually didn't care about being I know, didn't care about being cool. I like we didn't care about We've done a good job, mate. Being down at it. I feel like maybe it's like a bit of my kids my kids care more about how they come across and how than I ever did at that age. I didn't my didn't concern me in the slightest. And it did a little bit, but the the we would go in now. I feel like there's a if you if you're two stu if you're two studious or you're in with the coaches, like how does that come across? How does that look? And well, there'd be a bunch of us and we would go through each other's games every Monday, we'd sit on the computers together and like just talk rugby and talk and understand it, and and we almost learn learn through each other. Because like you said, I'm not from a I'm not from a massive rugby family. We didn't sit at home talking family and you see some some sons of coaches, and you look at someone like George Ford and No and Farrell, guys I played with huge parts of my career. The knowledge those guys had. I remember George speaking in a in a team meeting room at 18, and I could not believe the words that come out of his mouth about rugby, like how he spoke about rugby. It was run forward, pass, backwards. That was about all I knew.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

He's easy on the passing, Joe. Easy on the passing.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

He knew he the knowledge he had, and he's gonna go on and be a fantastic coach one day, um, for his understanding, that came from a lifetime of being on the side of rug pitch. I didn't have that, so I knew that I needed to accelerate my learning as quickly as I could. Again, going back to I knew I was never gonna be the quickest player and the most I couldn't get myself out of too much trouble positionally, so I had to I had to understand the game, I had to sort of get myself into the best positions, and and that gave myself the best chance to be to be effective because I I knew I couldn't you see some players that get themselves out of jail pretty pretty nicely because they're unbelievably athletic. That wasn't a luxury I had.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

And ma'am, when you're talking about learning yourself, you're actually in the process of doing a master's at university and sport directorship. And I think that's a really cool knowing that your transition from out of playing is is is imminent. What's the rationale here? Is that is that again to you want to go down the coaching route and you're trying to supersize your learning and you got you're off studying? Is it is that a way that you're doing it whilst you're playing?

First Steps Into Coaching

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah, it's a course that's always interested me. It's a course that a few players have done over the years, and it essentially it's a very wide-ranging course, guys from all different sports are on it. We've got guys in AFL, rugby league, swimming, we've got a whole such a wide cross-section of people on our sort of course and really interesting people all in different backgrounds. And I just wanted to, whilst I was in a job which I'm busy with, it's a it's a job that takes up a lot of my time uh with a young family as well. But I wanted to add to add to the stress and the pressure with with something, something extra, and something probably more for me. And I think we talk a lot about in England we've got an amazing, like the RPA are great, and here at Quinn's they're great around trying to prepare you for life therapy, but fundamentally you've got to go and actually do something yourself. Like you can have all the framework and all the but you've actually got to go and be proactive yourself. And I coached for quite a number of years before I came here, and I now live quite far away with my family, and I knew coaching the evenings is probably something which I wasn't going to be able to work family-wise. I knew I was gonna have to get home after training and and spend time with the families. This seemed like the best option. It was an amazing option. It was uh flexible working, allowed me to work when the when the kids are asleep and put some time in that regard, and it's been it's been great. Do I have it completely narrowed down exactly what I want to do after rugby? No, it's probably not. I'm still definitely looking at my options around what that could look like. Uh but no, it's been a great course. I think most more importantly, I think when you get to my age in rugby, it's it's good to actually action rather than just talk about life out of the rugby. It's good to actually try and put something into action. So even if I don't use it, which hopefully I will, even if I don't, I feel like I've been uh I'll put my mind at rest for the last couple of years and at least done something positive.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Well, any any gold nuggets you've picked up so far from it? I mean, like it it it sounds amazing. A masters of sports directorship. Any one thing that stood out that you go, this is this is kind of hit me?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I think there's quite I think there's quite a lot of like nice applicable, there's kind of like a few different modules around different topics. First, one like leading in high performance, so some real interesting stuff there around leadership, and just confirming, I guess, a lot of stuff that probably the topic that I found the most relevant and and enjoyable, it's kind of confirming what you think your your sort of personality profile is around and your leadership profile around what what you look like, and then right through to now I'm doing one on sort of more finance and governance, which is an area topic which I didn't think would be particularly interesting. But as we all know, rugby's not in not in the most amazing spot at the moment. So professional sport doesn't really work without finance and governance. So I'm I feel like it's given me such a wide variety of stuff to to even just think about have I do action loads of it in my day-to-day as a player, possibly not, but it's something which is constantly swirling around in in the brain and you know really really enjoy the process of it. But getting right and essay has certainly been the experience, so I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah well we're now you know you're better armed when you go for that uh that pay rise, you know, when you try yeah, get the last couple of years into a really good rate, you know where they're coming from. Love it. Now, mate, when what's rugby done for you, Joe? Like you've had an enormous career in it and you've gone to the very highest level, and of course you've improved actually on the field, but what's this game done to you as a person, husband, friend, father, all that stuff, and and how has some coaches helped drive another side of you? What's been the the uptick there?

Making Messages Stick

Learning Styles And Player Ownership

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah, I've anything, I guess, anything really, I guess, that you do between the age of uh 18 and 34, which is I guess what I've done, is uh is hopefully gonna have a a huge bearing on on how on how on how you are and and what you what you do. And I think rugby's been it's been the b the best job. My wife does hates me when I call it a job because it's it's it it's been a it's been just an amazing ride and I I like to think I've learned learns about myself. I touched a bit on earlier about um kind of the slightly shy, inward thinking, sort of um introverted character that I probably was leaving school. No, I wasn't like a sit by myself for a clue at all. I I've always loved I've always loved team sport and team sport for me has always been the biggest driver as to why I've been successful. I I think I would have I think I would have really struggled to be an individual sports person. I think I would have really struggled to have the dedication, the motivation to go up and do it for myself. It's always been it's always been being part of something bigger than me. It's always been being part of a group, being playing and training with with friends friends, with people who've gonna be a huge part of of my life moving forward and and that's always been a huge motivation for me to to get up and do stuff. Yeah, that th they're I guess they're they're some hu some bit bits that I've I've certainly tried to bring to fruition o over the years. I think I still am probably slightly introverted in the way I am at times. I think you'll probably agree. Rugby has also given me amazing confidence and amazing ability to to go off and sort of I I guess be more confident and I guess when I first started playing, all I wanted to do was play rugby. I didn't really want I didn't really like or enjoy the media side of it. I didn't enjoy going to dinners and have to sit at tables and talk to people. I found that I just wanted to play and be Joe. But now I actually now I actually enjoy and speaking to people, hearing hearing from different backgrounds and stuff, it has has been amazing. I probably if I was gonna attribute that to to Wong, I I spoke about him earlier, but Diane made me captain at WAS at 24. Yeah, twenty twenty twenty sixteen. So yeah, twenty-four, like ten years ago. And I I didn't see it coming, if I'm honest. I didn't for the for the reasons I just said then, I I I didn't see that for myself. I hadn't been particularly I think I was I was an established player by then and and I was playing for England and that side of it was going great. I didn't really see myself as as being a leader, I didn't see myself as being something I didn't really think I'd massively enjoy that. And he and we had two great captains at the time, co-captains, and he just kind of called me and said, right, you're gonna be captain. And my initial feeling, which is classic me, was I was really, really nervous as to how the other two guys would react. I was kind of like, Oh, I'm not sure if I want to take I remember saying to him, like, I want to do it, but I I don't think I can because I'm worried how the other two guys will will react. And he said, Alright, we'll go and speak to them first. I literally went and spoke to them about it first, and they were brilliant, they were amazing about it, and and uh they were really supportive of of of me and being involved and they could see the I guess the long-term side to it. And it really got me out of my shell. It it made me I there were a couple of us in our in our group, and I probably thought one of them was most likely to go and be club captain. I always thought he was gonna be the one. Guy called Sam Jones, a brilliant guy, had his career shortened through injury. He probably would have been been the one. So then it became so it was it was me, me to do it. Um and I genuinely loved it. I it brought the best out of me um as a individual, as a as a as a person, as a team member. It may be I I would never say I was a selfish player, but I definitely thought about myself and my career and how can I be the best player I I can be. It moved me from that to you've still got to be that, but then also how can we create a great team? How can we how can everyone come to being a good how how how's everyone feeling? What's the sort of temperature of the group? And and that actually helped me because I think coming back from England sometimes in between camps can be quite hard. It can be you can come back to your club, you've been away at Six Nations, or and will come straight back into a really competitive block, either in the premiership or in Europe. And it can actually be pretty hard mentally to get yourself back into that system where I feel like being captain actually really I didn't have a choice. I had to, from day one, I had to come back in and live, live the example of what I wanted to be and and how I wanted to be around the place. I couldn't really afford to just ease myself back in. So in that regard, and even like even things like standards and setting the culture couldn't tell people to do something if I wasn't doing it myself. So I think it massively, whilst an extra sort of, I guess, burden in a way, it actually made me a better player and without doubt and more confident. Um, I would never be dreaming of doing sport directorship course and thinking about going into any sort of leadership role. Like I would never have which wouldn't have been on my radar. So yeah, really, really thankful for that experience. And I guess that again going back to belief, like it didn't need to pick it up, he didn't need to at least get even take those two out of the job to back me as a 24-year-old to be captain was was a was a big call. But he obviously saw something in there which which he liked and and now it's become such a huge part of my career and the back end of my career. It's probably the bit I enjoy. I still love playing, I still I still love getting out there and and cont contributing and participating and chucking everything into it. But I I love the I love the leadership side of it, I love the sort of helping people, making people better. That's that's the bit that really kind of gets me now.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

What what do you think he saw in you with your experience now? Like at the time you said you weren't it was a surprise, but with your knowledge now, what what what do you think it is about what you would put on display that he thought this makes Joe would make a good captain, even though he doesn't realise it himself. What sort of traits do you think you had at the time?

Peer Learning And Game IQ

SPEAKER_01 50:14

I I think I was pretty consistent in my performance, I think I was pretty consistent in in my behaviours around the place. I was quite a trusted safe hand in that regard. Obviously, I was I was playing some of my best rugby at that time. Um and I think I also set standards in terms of the way I sort of trained and behaved was standards that he would have wanted to represent the team. I think I actually, for the first period of time, I found probably the hardest because I was 20, like I said, 24, surrounded by amazing friends in that group, and I was right in the thick of it, like sort of from the social side, really enjoy, really enjoyed being around the group. I tried really, really hard for it to not change that side of things, but naturally there's a there's a small part of it which does. And I've probably found leadership a bit hard a bit easier, sorry, as I've got a bit older. So now I've got a great relationship with the guys here, and there's some brilliant people here, but they're they're not really my necessarily my age brackets. It's almost easier to kind of go into that kind of leading role a little bit. Uh I definitely found that first period a bit harder. I also found it hard because I probably tried to be something I kind of I kind of wasn't a little bit. Uh the captain before was James Haskell, and he is a brilliant bloke. Force of nature has he's like unbelievably high energy, massive extrovert, can speak extremely well, can hold a room both in like a comedic level, but also like a rugby, like serious. They're ex they're a professional, great bloke. And I probably I didn't try and be him, but I I definitely tried to sort of keep that that talk inside going a little bit. Um I found that a bit hard a bit harder and I I think I had some good advice at the time and I kind of learned along the way that it's actually so many different ways to to do it, and you can also lean on the people around you. I created a I was so fortunate to have some great people who who helped me, I guess, along the way. Um maybe even small things like to start with, the the two-minute huddle before you go out for a game. To start with, I found that right, that's a really quite big high G up emotional piece. I actually left that to one of the other guys to do. And I was okay with that. I was massively okay with like all using our own strength as best as possible for the for the for the bet for the betterment of the team. And then as I built into the into it, I became that became a part of the job that I really, really enjoyed. I used to kind of see myself as a Monday to Friday captain rather than a Saturday captain. I used to always see myself as like I used to love the build-up, I used to love the driving standards, getting us prepped, getting us completely ready, getting us aligned for the game, and then come Saturday, I didn't love dealing with the ref, and I didn't love doing the pre-match talk. So it's kind of like somewhere in the middle of somewhere in the middle of those two, really.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Mate, that's cool. Monday to Friday, Captain. I haven't heard that phrase before. What did um did you have guidance? Did Dai Young guide you well as a leader? Has the best coaches you've had sort of give you advice and helped that journey along the way?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Yeah, I'd say he was I think he knew obviously what he was what he was getting himself in for. And he was definitely massively helpful to me. Like I said, he was he was kind of like a I guess a my rugby father figure for a long uh he was for a long a long period of time um and really helped me navigate that. But he also let me go and do make mistakes and and do it kind of my way as well. And then I'd fast forward to probably right to the end of my captaincy was when I when I left Wasp. And Lee Blackett was the head coach at the time. He was very much, it was his one of his first, was his first, um, he was an interim head coach at Wasps, and he I think it was his second head coach role. So he was young, inexperienced, great coach, but probably not, hadn't done loads of head coach role, and he was so amazingly open to the idea that he didn't have all the answers. And I think that's the superpower away. I think as a coach, sometimes you want to give the impression that you know everything. You want to give the impression that, right, you're told something, you scurry back to your office and go and look at it and quickly get back to get back to the player. Yeah, I knew that. In reality, like the organization or the team, or there's too much, there's too so much going on. And Lee was brilliant at kind of letting me, I guess, run the dressing room, run that side of it, run the feeling of the group, and he would any any issues, I'll go to him on that, and he have full trust. And likewise he would he would let the medical team run. And I know it sounds so simple, but sometimes in rugby that that isn't the case, and they can become a you employ the best people for the job, let them let them go and let them go and do the job.

Studying Sport Directorship

SPEAKER_00 54:38

I think that's a cool concept, mate, is um you let your people do their bit, and that applies to captains as well, right? Like you let your attack coach run the attack, you let your defense coach run the defense, you let your captain captain the way he wants to captain. And I think that's cool. I I think there is a case too, though, for as a coach, because often we talk about leadership and we often say we need more leaders and things, but like you at 24 years old, you're still young, you're still learning it yourself. It's almost like I I often reference like um take my teenage daughters driving. Like I don't just say get in the car and go. I sit in the passenger just seat next to them and just give them a little bit of bit of a guidance, like um, just be wary up here that someone could leap out here. There's there's a playground here, so you just be careful of kids running out, and you just sit beside them and help just point out the um relevant pieces along the way. You don't have to say stop now, wait. You don't have to be like that, but you can just you know just be that shoulder to be beside, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yeah. And I think you get and I think fortunately in in a team sport, you have plenty of people who are gonna be brutally honest with you as well. If something doesn't land, or if you say something wrong, I guarantee you're gonna hear about it. So the boys were, I guess, are a good sounding ball in in that regard. But no, I look back now and I think, well, I was quite young, but yeah, it's it's been I guess it all happened for the for the right reason.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Yeah. Now, Joe, we have got to that time, mate. It always flicks by so quickly here. Where I like to keep it too um to a tight hour, mate. So that's the tr that's a commute a lot of people do. So I've just got one more question for you today, and and it's one which I'm always intrigued about the answer to, and it's this mate: what's one aspect of the culture and rugby and leadership, or life, even Joe, that you believe in that you reckon you some of your contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_01 56:27

Well, um, I reckon I'll go for the rugby auction. I reckon I will coming from, as we talked about, not hugely massive rugby background. A lot of my mates aren't huge rugby sports. I would say that something they wouldn't 100% believe in it. I think rugby's the greatest sport. I think it's the greatest sport in the world. I think it's um it's got its well-documented issues um around sort of finance and safety and and all those sort of things. But I think what people ask me a lot, like, would you do you want your kids to play rugby? Uh it's a it's an interesting one. I can understand why people ask it, but for me what it's given me as an individual, what it's taught me about take away me being a professional player, if I just played it for the love of it, played with it like the guys at Wervin, because they absolutely love it. Um that for me is like what rugby is and um that sort of ability to come you learn so much about yourself around sort of resilience, hard work, all those well sort of worn topics. Yeah, I just think it's a it's a great sport and we love talking it down at times, but sometimes it's good to good to talk it up as well. And yeah, and I and I guess there's plenty of plenty of people on the way and yeah, it's been uh it's been a great it's been a great experience for sure. I I even think back to I'll mention you right at the end, Ben, but it's it's kind of the s the people of if I I wasn't gonna go to Japan if I'm brutally honest with you, like I probably was gonna um I sort of pre-verbally agree to stay in England to sign for a club in England. Got a request to speak to you out of the blue. I feel like we had a Zoom call for half an hour, not too dissimilar to this. Um and I think the connect I I I felt that we had a we barely talked about rugby. I think we talked about rugby for a tiny bit. We talked about family, we talked about what was important to me and what was important to my wife, and um sort of coming to Japan and and learning about the culture and all and that for me was was the bit that was more important than rugby. But I think why rugby is also so great, because rugby's full of full of great people like yourself and and there's thousands of people, amazing people in rugby, and I'm oh yeah, I'm so fortunate to to have played my part in it. Um but yeah, that's why I think rugby is uh the greatest sport in the world.

Leadership, Confidence, And Growth

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah, mate, that's awesome. Well, just a little bit of context on that too. Um I thought the club in Japan, Toyota, where you came for that year, was exceptional and that it sort of represented um the values of the sport where we knew you were coming. Well, we just rang up out of the blue and and and sort of sized up whether you'd do it. And once you sort of said, I'd be interested. We as a club all got together and said, well, let's make Joe's experience and his family's experience such that they have real good memories, however it goes, for for this short season you're with us. And just talking off air, you just mentioned how you could still look back on that time period with with absolute like joy. It's just the little snippet of life that the rugby was able to give you for that short period of time was was pretty special, I reckon.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

No, it's amazing, but unfortunately, you uh as you were my head coach and I broke my hand in the first game, I think you'd probably say that maybe it wasn't so successful, but it was uh it was an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Well, it was special, mate. And what you remember isn't the actual rugby. What you remember is the relationships, the interactions, that sort of things. And that's that's the joy of the sport, is whilst it's a high-performing sport, it's still anchored in in the human side, which is why I stick around in it, and probably you're the same too, right?

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Joe Launchbury, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today, mate. If I may, I'd just like to sort of sum up this awesome chat with my three takeaways with what I've got from you. Number one is you said early on, leadership can be lonely. And I think that is a truism for sure. And the reference point we made was always keep bringing people into that environment. Get information from all different sources. We talked about using the captain as an ambassador to the team and not a snitch, but uh another voice to help lighten the load and get information about how the team works. And I think that's important as a coach to realize you're not operating in a silo. Number two, I actually love this phrase you talked about, my own private project. You had your own internal spark and you did things your way, and you developed your own resilience early on in your career. And I think for coaches, it's important to keep driving individuals, individual spark, the desire to be the best they can be. Sometimes we lean towards you gotta go team first, which is a great phrase, but have your players motivated internally is a great driver for the team getting better in itself. So to have your own little private projects is a cool little statement. And number three, the right amount of information. And you talked about Sean Edwards delivering just little pieces which keep your belief and desire going. And sometimes as coaches, we think we need to put it all out there to information overload players. But what that actually does sometimes is bog down a brain's bandwidth. So keeping the right amount of information is probably less than you think. You're ready, son. Joe Launchbrew, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

No, it's been great. Thanks for having me back. I've really enjoyed it.